Ferguson, MO is tense as demonstrators mark the anniversary of the fatal shooting of unarmed teen Mike Brown by former cop Darren Wilson. How could things get worse?
Oh, I dunno, maybe if a bunch of heavily armed morons take it upon themselves to “patrol” the streets and intimidate peaceful demonstrators?
New demonstrations in Ferguson, Mo., led to a standoff with police and the arrests of 23 people Monday night, one day after a vigil for Michael Brown was marred by gunfire. The arrests came as police in riot gear tried to force people to disband and leave the street.
The night also brought a new development to Ferguson: sometime after midnight, “a group of five white men who call themselves the Oath Keepers arrived on the scene,” St. Louis Public Radio reports. “They carried assault weapons, which raised alarm from protesters.”
St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Belmar called the armed presence “both unnecessary and inflammatory,” according to NBC News.
Calling these lunatics’ presence “unnecessary and inflammatory” is a good start, but how about following it up with an order for them to get the fuck off the street with their assault weapons? Was that done? It appears not, from the reporting.
If not, why not? I mean, there’s a state of emergency, right? And people who would otherwise have the right to congregate are being ordered to disband and leave to keep the peace, correct?
“Oath Keepers” my ass. They are trouble-seeking, outside agitator thugs and should be treated as such by the cops, i.e., ordered to disarm and disperse and subject to arrest for noncompliance.
Steve From Antioch
They should start following Bernie Sander’s around and shutting down his speeches.
Punchy
The cammo vest would appear to be strikingly ineffective when paired with a bright orange hat.
japa21
Interesting that this is the first I have heard of this. One would think this would be major news. Oh, wait, they’re white. What would happen to 5 black men walking around with assault rifles. ?
Booger
But wait, did you notice they’re…how can I put this…white?
debbie
Wait. They weren’t given the same adversarial treatment the protestors received? These guys’ guns are so much bigger!
satby
Oath Keepers are drawn from the fringe sector of “retired military and law enforcement” according to their website. I assume it’s some warped version of professional courtesy that kept their asses out of jail. Especially since they’re there to intimidate the peaceful protestors. It’s almost like the Ferguson cops outsourced their intimidation tactics, since all eyes are on them.
Oatler.
We have Oathkeepers in Oregon too. Are these red state warriors also unemployed?
GregB
Oaf Creepers.
Amir Khalid
@Punchy:
Camo vests are also strikingly ineffective, I hear, when worn in an urban environment.
El Caganer
@japa21: The cops would call in an air strike.
Citizen_X
Freikorps.
sigaba
@Amir Khalid: Some people wear camo to conceal themselves. Some people wear camo to stick out.
beltane
Of course, the real troublemaker here is the Muslim guy taking a picture of those fine upstanding citizens.
scav
How else are people supposed to celebrate Darren Wilson day? Just wait until you see the format and scale of the one-year anniversary candles these lot have planned. Party! Party!
(huh, there’s one beardie guy in white that looks like he could get hauled over and have trouble getting on planes if objected to by others of his delicately inclimed co-citizens.)
Steve From Antioch
@Oatler.: I’d guess drawing disability …prolly driving F350s with 12 inch lift kits and disabled placards …
beltane
@sigaba: The camo + hunter’s orange combination is the de facto uniform of rural wingnuts.
JPL
@japa21: CBSN online interviewed a so-called oath keeper. The person said that they represented a website called infowars. The CBS reporter then said, that was a conspiracy site, obviously not in front of the person, because he would not be alive to report the news .
Pee Cee
@sigaba:
Fixed.
MazeDancer
OathKeepers are RWNJ’s with a Christianist bent who have been around a while. According to the Twitter bios of some of their members, Cruz loves them. Issa, too. Here’s Mother Jones on them: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers
Seems impossible that they could walk around with those dick-compensating assault rifles during a State of Emergency. Hope the Police Chief will answer questions about why that was a fine thing.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Steve From Antioch: Like the Tea Party people masquerading as BLM activists? Oh, that was a good time in Seattle. They punked everyone.
Gimlet
Are they wearing the traditional white robes with the pointy hats?
Patrick
@MazeDancer:
OathKeepers are RWNJ’s with a Christianist bent who have been around a while.
Christians carrying assault weapons? Sure, I am sure there is a tie-in to the “thou shalt not kill” somewhere..
Belafon
Obviously the white people with guns weren’t there to cause any trouble because they’re on the side of the police force.
//
Belafon
@Patrick: I think you have to accept that your target is human for that to mean something.
Gimlet
Every day Ferguson keeps escalating.
The authorities are “in your face” provoking the demonstrators to “respect their authority”, arresting or harassing anyone recording events, sending an authoritarian message to the media.
So far no end in sight.
MattF
One can only wonder exactly what ‘oaths’ they’re ‘keeping’. I could guess, but ‘druther not.
Kropadope
@Gimlet: They liked to dress up as ghosts to scare the black people.
Comrade Dread
Is there any other developed nation out there that tolerates roving gangs armed with assault rifles that do not answer to the governmental authorities or is this another instance of American exceptionalism in racing to attain third world status?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
srv
@Punchy: They’re bullet proof vests. They’re pretty expensive so most people can’t afford to have a camo one and one to meet your urbane fashion demands.
This is a combat zone, people have to behave appropriately.
Joel
Where are the fucking Member’s Only jackets?
Bobby Thomson
The cops are too busy dealing with the threat from black reporters. Priorities, people. Jeez.
White Trash Liberal
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
That is bullshit and I am calling you out on it. I just finished listening to the interview with the accused tea partier. She was eloquent and her reasoning for the interruption was sound.
Did you actually listen to her words when she protested? Do you know the first damned thing? No. But you are retreating into a conspiracy theory crouch befitting a privileged member of our supremacist society.
All of you who continue to bandy about the bullshit notion that because she is Christian and wore a Sarah button in high school means she was a ratfucker are despicable.
gelfling545
@Gimlet: That’s their dress uniform.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
Yep, no possible way this could go wrong.
I heard part of a speech from a (Reform) rabbi at one of the protests yesterday. She sounded pissed. I’m not sure the non-crazy local community is going in the direction that the authorities want them to.
misterpuff
Police Dispatcher: We have a report of a man with a gun at…..Nevermind, it’s a white man with a gun. Probably heading out to watch a movie. Nothing to see here.
White Trash Liberal
Ferguson is white supremacy in action. From top to bottom. A case study. And how we as outside observers react says a lot about our empathy and our position within the greater structure of modern Jim Crow.
To quote the big ol’ dude in Twin Peaks: it’s happening again.
Poopyman
Elmo
There was a comment on FreeRepublic the other day that ties into this, and it gives a perfect insight into how these people think. I can’t quote the whole thing verbatim, but it was to the effect that civil war is coming and “your face will be your uniform.” (The part in quotes is verbatim.)
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@White Trash Liberal:
I’m a little torn about her actions because I’m not sure it was the right place or the right time.
On the other hand, Sanders opened his rally here in Los Angeles with a speech from local BLM activists, which means he is responding well and in the way I (and probably the activists) hoped he would, so I think it ultimately worked out in a positive way.
kc
I wonder what would happen if some of the black protesters started wearing Kevlar vests and openly toting assault rifles.
Poopyman
Oh yeah, forgot about this quote that NBC picked off their website:
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
Allow me to be the 17th (if that soon) commenter to state the obvious: Duh, they’re white guys. Plus ça change. The only path to stricter gun laws is for males of color to sacrifice themselves – since they’d not live to see the laws change – by sporting long guns around town in open carry states. As we all know, that was the genesis of strict CA gun laws.
MomSense
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
That was a very unfortunate smear of the Seattle protesters. I listened to her interview last night and she is not a tea partier. I also find it upsetting that the people who made the tea party claim about her never tried to interview her or corroborate their story.
She was interviewed by TWIBprime last night. The interview is posted on the twib website and youtube if you want to listen. I found her to be impressive. I encourage you to have a listen.
Also, too people might like to know that Bernie is making some positive changes as a result. This is good news.
White Trash Liberal
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
She represented BLM in Seattle and is encouraging dialogue. We have months to cope with the tactics and their influence. I support the movement because this is the signal human rights movement of our time.
She did this on the year anniversary of Michael Brown’s death while Ferguson is again a hot zone and the white power structure appears determined to not learn or atone. This is history in action.
Betty Cracker
Here’s a tweet with vid clip from Guardian reporter Jon Swaine, who was on the scene last night and witnessed the cops taking black men into custody because “they had weapons.” And yet the authorities are apparently going to allow these Oath Keeper choads to roam around openly brandishing assault weapons. Disgraceful.
boatboy_srq
@japa21: @Booger: Is it just me, or is the whole ammosexual thing just wingnuts insisting that the 2nd Amendment empowers white US citizens to shoot niCLANGs they don’t like, and anyone else is suitable for target practice especially if they’re packing heat?
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Comrade Dread: Syria, Iraq, most of Africa…oh wait, you said DEVELOPED nations. Never mind. No.
scav
Admit it folks: Furries are looking a far healthier sexual kink just about now, no? With a more intersting dress sense.
Oatler.
@gelfling545: I believe the dress uniform involves Brown Shirts.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@White Trash Liberal: I consider myself “called out”, whatever that means. Keep supporting the ratfuckers, you’re doing the job you were paid for.
MomSense
@White Trash Liberal:
I appreciated her explanation and even though her tactics have upset a lot of people, I was impressed by her reasoning. Also, it is not my place to judge!!
kc
@White Trash Liberal:
“THIS EVENT WILL BE SHUT DOWN!”
“STOP TALKING!”
[Shrieking] “WE ARE REASONABLE!”
A Ghost To Most
@White Trash Liberal:
Preventing Sanders from speaking was encouraging dialogue? If that was representing BLM, then I question BLMs motives. If it looks like ratfucking, that is how it will be perceived.
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal:
Linky McLinkerstein?
@A Ghost To Most:
Don’t you know that dialogue can only go one way?
shell
Meanwhile, two reporters who were covering the protests a year ago, and were old they weren’t leaving a McDonalds fast enough, have been charged. Cops have their priorities!
D58826
@Booger: BEAT ME TO IT
Gimlet
@Betty Cracker:
Think armed Black Panthers will arrive soon to “protect” the demonstrators?
kc
@MomSense:
It was a rally to protect & support Social Security and Medicare. I’ll judge.
I imagine people would be pretty pissed if pro-Medicare activists shut down a criminal justice reform rally.
boatboy_srq
@Amir Khalid: They’re not intended to make the wearer harder to target. They’re intended to make the wearer look
butchfearsome.MomSense
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Sanders is becoming a much better candidate which will also make Clinton and O’Malley better candidates. I say rock on BLM because this is life and death and the only party who will even entertain criminal justice reform is the Democratic party.
MomSense
@kc:
I encourage you to listen to her interview.
maya
Sorry to break in here, but… we could use an open thread on MICROSOFT 10.
For any BJers who are thinking of using the free UPGRADE to Microsoft 10 on their existing Microsoft 7 or 8 machines, DON’T! Major screwup.
I installed it yesterday, (it was already downloaded on my Lenovo laptop) and the curser will not work. Have called Microsoft tech, forget it.
Anyone tech savvy here can help?
Kropadope
I’m waiting for a clarification from the person who just responded to me on Facebook, but the impression I got is that these Oath Keepers are being viewed as a “standing state militia” which is standing up to the federal intrusion on the poor Ferguson PD.
A Ghost To Most
@MomSense:
So the ends justify the means? How Nixonian of you!
Kropadope
@maya: My upgrade went through without a hitch. My computer is actually working much better than it had been with Windows 8.
A Ghost To Most
@maya:
Working fine on my Surface Pro. Ok, bad example.
Betty Cracker
@maya: I think this did come up in a previous open thread. I’ll see if I can find it and post a link for you.
boatboy_srq
@Patrick: Xtians don’t recognize non-Xtians as human (except when they’re targets for evangelism), so that doesn’t apply. OTOH, they’re not especially good at not coveting their neighbors’ wives/goods/etc, not stealing, not bearing false witness, and not committing adultery, nor not observing the Sabbath, so not killing may just fall into the same category.
Mike J
Did you see the hed NBC news gave this pic on twitter?
https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/631086771430887424
Calouste
@Comrade Dread: It would be 20 minutes tops before the red dot of a police sniper would be on their forehead and someone with a megaphone commanded them to lay down their weapons, walk away from them and put their hands in the air. And then they would be off to do 5 to 10 years in prison.
maya
@Betty Cracker: Thanks, would appreciate. Fortunately have HP backup computer. Thank you Carli too!
Patrick
@Gimlet:
Remember how FoxNews were so concerned and agitated about two Black Panther members standing outside a voting facility in the 2008 election? Can i assume that FoxNews will be equally concerned about these armed Oath Keepers?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@scav:
At least furries don’t parade around in public demanding that everyone LOOK AT THEM and tell them how totally normal they are.
I honestly do think that if guys like this didn’t have large guns they could parade around with in public, they’d all be wearing raincoats on sunny days.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
link for ya
White Trash Liberal
@A Ghost To Most:
Protest is Nixonian?
Are you Bizarro Progressive?!
Patrick
@Kropadope:
So can African-Americans also create their own “standing state militia” which is standing up to the federal intrusion on the poor Ferguson PD?
boatboy_srq
@Mike J: [cough]PATRIOT GROUP? You owe me a keyboard, a shirt and a double mocha.
“#OathKeepers” strikes me as a very appropriate instruction.
Mike J
@maya: If using a trackpad/etc, plug in an external mouse. If already using an external mouse, move it to a different usb port. There’s a good chance that will get you up and running enough to fix the problem. Drivers for laptop hardware are often flakey.
This is why you never install any operating system until it has been out for a while.
White Trash Liberal
@kc:
You didn’t listen to it.
Frankensteinbeck
@boatboy_srq:
Yes, but you have to expand the idea of what that’s like. They also live in constant terror because most blacks look like dangerous criminals to them, so they see dangerous criminals every time they leave the house. The ‘they’re coming for our guns’ crowd think that black people are getting so much favoritism that soon they’ll control the government and enact a plan of genocide against whites. A lot of the race war folks think blacks (and they’re adding Mexicans lately) are too dumb for that, but are inherently violent animals – ‘animal’ being a specific word they use – and when a certain concentration of blacks is reached the US will explode. A whooooole bunch of non-gun-nuts are sympathetic because they see a heavily armed white man and think he’s an idiot, but they see a black child with a toy gun and are afraid they’re going to be shot.
Ron Paul’s news letters are quite enlightening, in a macabre ‘there are really people this insane?’ way.
Kropadope
@Patrick: He’s now equating these fellows to the “gang members” who protected businesses from looting with assault weapons.
ETA: I think they actually equate well, but I don’t support vigilantism in either case. This is not a comic book.
MomSense
@White Trash Liberal:
I give up.
Amir Khalid
@Mike J:
Someone once told me their rule for any new version of Windows was always “wait for Service Pack 1”.
Mack
I did the upgrade too, but since I never used 8, I can’t really compare. I went from XP to 7, (for an entire day!) then upgraded to 10. My cursor seems to jump around more than I like…but I’m thinking this wireless mouse is not interfacing well with the arm of this chair….
Karen in GA
@maya: I’m waiting a couple of months to upgrade. I’d like to see some of the kinks worked out first.
Back on topic, has anyone in the MSM talked about the Oath Keepers, or is it just us? ETA: And NPR.
White Trash Liberal
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
I’m being paid? Is this Hillary money, Soros money, or Koch money?
You loon. In defending the actions and message of BLM I have been called a slave pimp, firebagger in black face, and now a paid ratfucker. All because of POOR BERNIE.
It’s pathetic. I hope you find a sense of shame one day.
White Trash Liberal
@MomSense:
It’s exactly what TWiB was describing in that interview. Maddening and saddening.
Betty Cracker
@maya: I didn’t find much of interest via a simple site search, but Mike J at #79 seems to know what he’s talking about.
Frankensteinbeck
@Amir Khalid:
Now that it has come out, people who have it are telling me that Microsoft was being so cagey about the pricing system because the operating system itself isn’t subscription based, but things in it are, including getting rid of embedded advertisements. I confess, I don’t want to upgrade and find out how much of that is true.
maya
@Mike J: Don’t have, but good suggestion. Plan to go to tech repair shop today is now a certainty. Had a feeling about clicking that ‘install” prompt. @##%&@##
A Ghost To Most
@White Trash Liberal:
No, but preventing an ALLY from speaking is not encouraging dialogue, and encouraging means that are counterproductive to the overall movement is not helpful. All BLM did was piss off a lot of allies. Just because you believe a cause is just doesn’t mean you should do ANYTHING you want to accomplish it. Did Watergate teach you nothing? Or are you too young to have absorbed that lesson?
Sherparick
@japa21: It is amazing the how the cops just get this deer in the headlight look when asked why these guys were not asked to leave or dispersed. Basically, “well, I am not afraid of five white guys who look like me going around carrying guns. Obviously, they are not a threat to me, because they are part of the tribe. But black guys carrying guns, well, they are the enemy in a war, shoot on sight.
Brachiator
What oaths are they keeping and who are they keeping it with?
More like Oaf Nobodies.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@White Trash Liberal: Just “calling you out” for what you are.
Enjoy spending the money, whoever’s sending it to you.
Paul in KY
@Comrade Dread: Settler Israel.
Fr33d0m
I think the dialog about BLM protesters is getting overly testy and you all should just calm down a notch or two. If there is evidence that the protesters are tea baggers then air it out or clam up about the claim. If you are just frustrated about the tactics and looking for a way to counter it, then might I remind you this is a lefty blog. If you don’t understand my reference then Google any issue and count the number of lefty blogs versus righty blogs.
I too am concerned about how Bernie can continue if they shut him down all the time–a tactic that seems self limiting since his crowds will not simply migrate in mass to Hillary–if he goes away, their audience does as well. Bernie seems to be making adjustments and hopefully something can be worked out before tragedy besets all.
White Trash Liberal
@A Ghost To Most:
How is Watergate a useful corrolary to BLM?
You are stretching the concept of the ends justifying the means past its breaking point if you insist that BLM disrupting Bernie is in anyway analogous?
Allies don’t disengage when they are criticized. Allies listen and respond. Bernie was disrupted and told what kind of racist city Seattle is and demanded a moment of silence on the anniversary of Michael Brown’s death.
Bernie’s campaign has reacted by publishing a policy draft and incorporating a BLM speaker into his events. That is how allies should behave.
Learn from him. Your whole Nixon angle is preposterous.
ruemara
@CONGRATULATIONS!: that’s not true at all. They weren’t Tea Party people at all.
Steeplejack
@Poopyman:
I wonder if the police have diligently checked these guys’ permits.
Roger Moore
@maya:
The best suggestion I can think of is to install Ubuntu instead.
Gin & Tonic
@Mike J: Somebody must have wised up, because here’s the NBC hed in my Google News feed now: “Heavily-armed members of a controversial right-wing “patriot” group added an extra dose of unease to protests in Ferguson, Missouri, early Tuesday.”
chris9059
@Kropadope: Wouldn’t be suprised if they’re not even from Missouri, which would make it hard for them to be Missouri state militia.
JCJ
@scav:
Thanks for the laugh. Sadly, you are correct.
A Ghost To Most
@White Trash Liberal:
The.Ends.Justify.The.Means. That is what Nixon thought, and that is apparently what you and BLM think.
The lesson is. the ends do NOT justify the means. Not a lesson you seem capable of learning.
Piss off, noisy fool.
Mike J
@Karen in GA:
mojo has a story on their background:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/oath-keepers
Fr33d0m
@Roger Moore: Or Linux Mint, or one of the other distributions.
White Trash Liberal
@ruemara:
It’s McCarthyism. Protestor supported Palin in high school and has evangelical beliefs, therefore she’s a tea party sympathizer today.
An actual liberal would commend her growth as a person. she has progressed from her tteenage beliefs into an activist. But reactionary Orwell guzzling paranoiacs think royalist conspiracy. They’d be better off hanging out with Robespierre and the Jacobins.
Nutella
@A Ghost To Most:
Their point is that he’s not much of an ally if he has nothing at all to say about racial justice. Bernie didn’t have a thing to say about it until it was brought, loudly and rudely, to his attention.
The assumption that everyone to the left of the tea party is allies is completely wrong.
The assumption that economic justice is all anybody needs, common in Sanders supporters, is also completely wrong. Look at Sandra Bland. She was doing well economically. Her family lives in a comfortable suburb. She graduated from college. She was starting a new professional job. None of that saved her from violent assault and false imprisonment for Driving While Black. Her death had nothing to do with economic justice issues so I hope you can pay attention to the experiences of people like her who are asking us (Bernie Sanders in particular and white Democrats in general) to be THEIR allies.
Yeah, they’re not asking very politely but politeness didn’t get racial justice into Bernie’s platform, did it? Is it more important to you that everyone address political issues with appropriate decorum or that the police are harassing and killing black people?
ETA for clarity
Botsplainer
Sturmabteilung…
Belafon
@Fr33d0m:
Question: How many times has Sanders been shutdown?
Kropadope
@Nutella:
False. Plus I’m tired of posting the links here to prove it to you numbskulls. If you can’t be bothered to take a cursory glance at the candidate’s history, including a 20+ year long Congressional career and statements made within the last year, prior to any BLM protest; then I just can’t help you.
Here, again, a misrepresentation. While economic justice is disproportionally needed on behalf of minority communities and would work overall to reduce the insecurity that exacerbates racial tensions; no one has suggested it is a panacea.
White Trash Liberal
@A Ghost To Most:
You know who else thought the ends justified the means?
Thoreau, Gandhi, MLK, Hitler, Lenin, Trotsky, Bakunin, Akinsky, GB Shaw, Jesus Christ, Dick Cheney, Che Guevara and Karl Marx.
And Nixon. And BLM.
You are spouting a terrific amount of nonsense.
And in the meanwhile, black people are dying and being arrested. Apparently the cops and oath keepers think the ends justify the means, too.
Poopyman
Well, here’s a new angle from CNN:
Mike J
@Gin & Tonic:
Scrolling through @NBCNews twitter feed
appeared 4 hours ago, and then
three hours ago. They seem to have gotten worse, not better.
Gimlet
@Nutella:
If only we had a black president and administration in Washington, we wouldn’t have to wait a year and a half for this to be addressed.
Fr33d0m
@Belafon: I made no claim, just mentioned a concern. And no I’m not going to be party to opening another thread in the attempt to discredit or attack what others say.
trollhattan
@misterpuff:
Well played and a well-earned golf clap.
“Open carry” i.e., fake dick-brandishing is one item in a big list of reasons not to leave California. That’s despite air so thick with smoke I could spoon it into a jar.
srv
@Mack: Most mouse manufacturers have their own ‘driver’ they prefer you download and use, which typically might operate on top of the operating systems default driver. Either should have some settings to adjust and it’s common for mice to be freaky after updates.
If it’s a Microsoft mouse, particularly ironicle.
@Poopyman: If black helicopters are real, why don’t reporters need protection?
singfoom
The circular firing squads will continue until morale AND teamwork improves!
A Ghost To Most
@Nutella:
So, would their pursuit of the end of racial justice justify shooting Sanders, because he is not polically pure enough to them ? Where does the line get drawn?
Should I refuse to ally myself with christian democrats because many of them do not support atheists? Should I shout down any christian politician because they do not overtly support atheist rights? No, because that would be counterproductive to the overall movement.
There are many voices in the progressive movements; how about we don’t shout down those who aren’t pure enough in our eyes?
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal:
I see several names on that list who wouldn’t have advocated pursuing an end by any means necessary.
BobS
@Comrade Dread: Ukraine.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
Not any means. But means nonetheless. Nice goal post shifting.
RaflW
If they didn’t force those jackasses to move along home, then the state of emergency is total crap. Which it probably is – black people and their white allies protesting? Emergency! “Oath Keepers” in paramilitary drag and hoisting extreme firepower? Whatevs.
It would seem that #BLM has a point.
trollhattan
@chris9059:
You won’t find a knifeblade’s distance between them and the psychopaths who showed up at Bundy ranch to draw a bead on the federal officers there.
I wish they’d get on it and build that fort in northern Idaho, so we can lock them all inside.
MomSense
@Belafon:
He really didn’t have to leave the stage and could have acknowledged her and said something about bringing in new people to his campaign and working on his racial justice statement.
I guess I’m not seeing what they did as so radical but I’ve said that I had hippie parents. Now that I think of it, Bernie is not that much younger than my parents so he probably saw the same things.
The next night he had bigger crowds and had BLM open his rally. Guess what, he is becoming a better candidate and addressing a real weakness in his platform.
ruemara
@A Ghost To Most: then you were never an ally. Christ. I’m done with “liberals”. Bernie Sanders is not made of gossamer and fairy farts. Having to respond to a constituency he’s never truly engaged with does not hurt him. And if you think this was shutting him down, then way was this ok for groups you did like? Was it ok when they targeted people you hated?
Bernie didn’t lose my support. His supporters cost him my support. How can I align myself with such a bunch of vicious, clueless, racially patronising people? You want to know why we have to do this to Democrats? The bullshit responses about waiting to speak, and you must be getting paid etc. We’re just a convenient trophy to your liberal bonfires and the most goddamn reliable voting block that helps make fucking progressive shit happen. But questioning Sanders is a bridge too far? Unbelievable.
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal: If, as you’re arguing, the ends justify the means; doesn’t that imply any means necessary? Also, people like MLK and Gandhi stood up to the power structure. They weren’t cowards who tried to make a name for themselves repeatedly disrupting speeches of a reformer with little political influence.
A Ghost To Most
@MomSense:
That may be, but Bernie is most likely not going to be the nominee, and BLM did not endear themselves to many in the progressive movement. Nose, spite, face …
Kropadope
@ruemara:
No one said he is, but many people are acting like BLM protesters are. Keep beating that straw man.
Perhaps if they ever get around to doing that, we’ll find out.
White Trash Liberal
@ruemara:
This. In 10000 point font.
Mike J
@Kropadope:
A guy who is running for president?
We always hear about the Bernie juggernaut and how Clinton should be cowering because of yet another rally with x thousand people who won’t turn out to vote, but now he’s just a poor little guy who nobody should disturb because he’s to puny to bother with.
A Ghost To Most
@ruemara:
Bullshit. I have been a progressive all my life, and I have met many christian democrats (including several black democrats) who do not treat atheists as allies. They got their civil rights, fuck mine.
When you are willing to shout down a politician for atheist rights, come see me.
chopper
@Brachiator:
the oath is “i hereby promise to be the biggest piece of shit i can be, every day”
Joel
@chopper: Winner winner chicken dinner!
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
Cowards? Ok you are off the rails.
And no, the ends justify the means does not mean any means necessary. It means sometimes you have to afflict the comforted.
Is civil disobedience any means necessary? No. They could live action role play the Aristocrats joke instead. I think it is disingenuous to say any means necessary because that can be stretched into an authoritian and NIXONIAN means of silencing dissent.
And in the meanwhile, black people are dying and being arrested in Ferguson while armed white civilians are escalating the tension.
SatanicPanic
@Kropadope:
You’re asking for a link to TWIB*? Just wait a few hours and there will be like four on the front page.
(TWIB is awesome, I’m a regular listener)
CONGRATULATIONS!
@ruemara: No, but hijacking and shutting down one of his rallies is.
The tragedy and horror here is how gullible folks like you are being used to destroy the only people who were always on your side, and you can’t even see it.
trollhattan
@chopper:
I thought it was a misspelling of “Oat Keepers”–lovers of delicious hot cereal and cozy pajamas.
SatanicPanic
Also, can we not lecture BLM protesters on how to “do it right”? That’s embarrassing on a liberal website. Bernie’s not going to win anyway.
ruemara
@Gimlet: there’s a “black administration”? This black shadow government, how do they operate? How are they responsible for local government? Also, the “why didn’t the black guy fix systemic racial abuses in LEO” shit you post, it’s tired. Why don’t fucking white presidents fix these white cops? They’ve held office longer, it’s also not a problem black people can fix in white people. Look in the damned mirror. There’s the problem.
Fucking progressives. You don’t seem to know how to be progressive. Fuck your noise. Go back to mocking Trump, it’s at your level.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@JCJ: Confusing Furries and the sub-group referred to as Plushies. Furries think Plushies are embarrassing.
My kid is a furry.
trollhattan
Keep wondering why so many are on the case of the Bureau of Land Management, but then I remember Bundy Ranch….
Kropadope
@Mike J: Juggernaut? Hardly. I’m always hearing about he could never possibly win…not EVARRR!!!
Plus, even if he is more influential than I give him credit for; that doesn’t change that he has been engaged on these issues for a long time, all ill-informed arguments to the contrary notwithstanding.
rikyrah
FROM TOD:
Mike G
They’ll get around to it mighty quick if the blah people start carrying around assault weapons.
A Ghost To Most
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
This. Why is BLM so willliing to piss on their friends?
Tim C.
@shell:
THIS! THIS! 1000 times THIS!
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@trollhattan: You could come to Washington, like many other Californians have. It’s astonishing how many of us there are here.
(I did not willingly abandon California; long story, and where are these grandchildren I was promised???)
ETA: Make that Western Washington, the greater Seattle area.
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal:
Right, and in case you haven’t noticed, I’m not on board with that either. I’ve actually spent a lot of my morning explaining to one of my friends why that is not OK.
Also, if your argument is that the ends justify some means but not others, why didn’t you say so to begin with? ETA: If the ends justify some means, but not others, then the ends do not justify the means. So you are clearly arguing out of your ass and not any logical basis.
BobS
@White Trash Liberal: Maybe BLM will get Oathkeepers off the streets of Ferguson if they show up at a few more Bernie Sanders rallies.
A Ghost To Most
@Kropadope:
IOKIYABLM
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@A Ghost To Most:
The Seattle protest succeeded in getting the Sanders campaign to add a speech from Los Angeles BLM activists to his campaign stop here. Not surprisingly, there were no interruptions of Sanders’ speech here in LA, because he listened to their concerns beforehand and gave them a place to air them.
I honestly don’t understand why people are so pissed off about a tactic that worked to open up a much-needed dialog between Sanders and black activists. They acted, his campaign responded in a productive and respectful way that addressed their concerns, and everyone seems happy now. Well, except for white “progressives” who can’t get over their butthurt that poor, innocent Bernie actually had to deal with real politics and negotiate with his allies.
trollhattan
@Pie Happens (opiejeanne):
Did the reverse trip here from there. The folks stayed in Seattle the rest of their lives and while I tried finding work for a possible relocation, nothing clicked so I stayed put. Now that the PNW is developing a California-like climate (vastly different than the one I grew up in) I might still look at it. Mid-winter is pretty darn depressing though.
kc
@MomSense:
Thanks, but after watching her show her ass and shut down a rally for SS/Medicare, I’m not interested in hearing any more BS.
Joel
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): At some point, you’ve got to wonder if the trolls are seeping in.
Bubblegum Tate
@MazeDancer:
A RWNJ I know online is an Oath Keeper. He was recently offline because he was “guarding a recruiting station” in rural Indiana, which is to say parking his pasty white ass in a lawn chair and conspicuously stroking his gun. Based on everything he says and believes, he’s strongly reminiscent of Michael Gross’s character in Tremors, right down to his well-stocked Doom Bunker.
singfoom
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): It seems like it starts a cycle. People didn’t like the tactics even though as you note, it opened up a much needed dialog and both sides will be better for it.
You can dislike the initial tactic and appreciate the results at the same time. I think there’s plenty of butthurt on both sides though.
<blockquote>Well, except for white “progressives” who can’t get over their butthurt that poor, innocent Bernie actually had to deal with real politics and negotiate with his allies.
Which leads to butthurt on the BLM supporter side (what if you support both?) that there was any butthurt on the “progressive” side.
I’d say we just agree Bernie’s response was tone deaf, recognize that his change is a good thing and stop the butthurt cycle? I think some people want to keep yelling at others for a while. Maybe it’s for catharsis.
kc
@White Trash Liberal:
My transcription was accurate. I admit, I stopped listening after that dipshit said “occupied territory.” I was kind of turned off after watching them put hands all over the host.
Applejinx
Thankfully Bernie Sanders isn’t stampeded away from the real, critical, timely and freaking serious problem by a bunch of ratfuckers and/or hashtagvists.
Thing is we can’t actually solve these problems by hashtagvism or getting in your face or disrupting stuff. I think the Bernie disruptions are right on the edge between legit desperation and either narcissistic posturing or ratfucking.
It can’t ever be written off as purely narcissistic because the message there REPRESENTS something. As John points out we have Oathkeepers down in Ferguson rattling the cage. It’s obscene, as bad as Westboro Baptist Church trolling, and apparently it is happening. That this can even be a thing is obscene. When did America become a South African township under apartheid?
At the same time if things are only disruption and desperation, we don’t win. It plays into the idea that them black people are just disruptive and unpredictable and violent and you have to shoot them when they get uppity, and they get randomly uppity and have no coherent idea or purpose beyond thuggery.
Bernie seems to be doing the right things. I still think his economic message is overwhelmingly important but this weekend I hung out casually with black people (attending the same con I was working) and when I think of those kids getting mowed down by assault rifles or executed for skittles I lose my shit. I was coaching one of ’em about how to write better stories. Good guy, awful writer. He could go back to a home town where some white guy with a gun can just shoot him in the street and that would be it. If he was LUCKY they’d take his body away rather than leaving it to rot as a warning to the others.
I am fine with the #blacklivesmatter message taking over Bernie’s messaging. it is a bigger crisis than the steady complete collapse of world economics, because it’s already happening and we may have a little time to fix the economic thing (Obama’s done pretty well preventing further collapse) but we have no more time to delay dealing with this.
If the disruptors are desperate idiots and they keep on screwing things up even when Bernie is incorporating the real message as quickly as his 9000 year old white butt can, I am frustrated. They gotta let him put it across. He has to win, has to reach a broad spectrum of people to accomplish anything. He has a better political sense than them, that’s what he does for a living.
If the disruptors are ratfuckers, I’m pissed off at them even as I hope their actions are paradoxically helpful. Maybe they didn’t succeed in making desperate black Americans look like thugs. I hope not. I now have to be ready to explain to other white faces that there’s some justification for disrupting the event and calling attention to the emergency, and the more hashtagvistic the disruptions are, the harder it is to make that case. But when I think of the black faces I’ve called and still call friend, I have no choice other than to try and whitesplain away resentment.
“I know it looks like they are angry thugs busting up events just to try and turn it to their agenda and make people chant ‘Michael Brown’ or whatever, but you must understand that they are super desperate and getting murdered at a horrible rate and it’s their belief that if people KNOW and are constantly AWARE of them it will help. That’s why they want you to drop what you’re doing and chant the names of the dead, so you understand that this murdered person had a name”
White person say so what?
If any of you guys are coming from that place, god DAMN it listen to some whitesplaining as in splaining ABOUT whites. Do not fall for this dumb idea that you can call to some white form of conscience or decency! My own white face is from bloodlines that go back to the Vikings, and Vikings were assholes! White faces do not necessarily care if you had a name, so you can’t bully White America into decency. The decency is not there any more than it is in the ghettos the white fingers point to all the time.
Do only enough disruption to bump up the priority of the problem and then let us try to deal with our own. The only way to seriously deal with racial tension is (a) intermingling so race contact is not unusual and (b) good experiences so that the association of ‘black’ is not ‘thug’ or ‘disruptive influence’. It’s a tricky line to walk if your world is lily-white or ebony-black (cuts both ways, imagine if most of the whites you see were armed killers in blue, you’d be pretty untrusting)
We need more people that move in both worlds, dealing with this: and less Oath Keepers and busting up political events for the white dude that doesn’t have Secret Service protection. I guess it’s good he didn’t because the priority got bumped way up as it should. Now it has to go over to the more skilled PR people and experienced politicians who know how to write a bill, get it through committee, actually do something to fix the problem.
Gimlet
@ruemara:
How are they responsible for local government?
So how can Bernie do something Obama can’t?
Belafon
@MomSense: I know, but he recently led BLM start one of his rallies, so I think he’s OK.
I just think people also need to keep a perspective on how often Sanders has been “shut down.” As far as I know the record is:
Two times when he’s been at an event that is not his own rally.
Zero times at his own rally.
Clinton and O’Malley have each been targeted once. So +1 for Sanders doesn’t make a pattern to me.
A Ghost To Most
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
And pissed off a lot of people (including a bunch of non-Sanders supporters).
Would you rather feel right, or effective? We felt we were right in 2000; that worked out real well.
How’s that face doing minus the nose?
lamh36
kc
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Of course they weren’t Tea Party people. They’re people who, if they were white and interrupted an Obama speech, would be sneeringly referred to as “emoprogs” by the same people defending them now.
MomSense
Ok, have to scoot so I will drop this and leave (mea culpa). Howard Dean just tweeted this dailykos Open Letter to Progressives and added “exactly right”.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/10/1410719/-Open-letter-to-progressives-You-re-doing-it-wrong-and-it-ll-cost-the-Democratic-Party
kc
@Nutella:
Except to the extent that she was stuck in jail for days because she couldn’t afford the $500.00 required to pay a bail bondsman.
Belafon
@kc:
Probably because the whites wouldn’t be trying to talk about being killed by cops.
SatanicPanic
@kc:
Well yeah, because BLM protesters are protesting something important. Nobody cares about drones or whatever pet issue Glenn Greenwald readers are upset about right now.
Marmot
@A Ghost To Most:
Completely off-topic, but I’ve never understood this aspect of ’70s lefty half-ass reasoning. It’s simply not an either-or question. Sometimes the means are justified by what they achieve, full stop.
Nixon believed the ends were always justified, right?
Bubblegum Tate
@Brachiator:
To hear them tell it, they are very strictly maintaining their oath as military members and/or law enforcement officers to protect the nation and [what they believe] the Constitution [says] against all enemies, foreign and domestic–emphasis theirs (and seriously, they do emphasize that last part when they write it). So, you know…people on the wrong side of the swarthiness cutoff line.
Remember that hilarious “Gathering of Eagles” thing years ago where a bunch of RWNJs descended upon Washington DC to “protect” our national monuments from unnamed dastardly “liberals” who would seek to deface/destroy them? Oath Keepers is like a cross-breeding of that with your average “patriot militia” member.
kc
@ruemara:
How is Bernie Sanders?
Kendall
Am I the only one who wants to see some Social Security activists disrupt a BLM rally just to see the reaction?
Kropadope
@SatanicPanic:
Muslim lives matter.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@A Ghost To Most:
Sanders added local BLM activists to his campaign stop here in Los Angeles after the Seattle interruption.
I think we have a very different definition of “effective.” To me, “effective” means that the campaign took note of BLM’s concerns and acted to address those concerns.
To you, “effective” seems to mean “didn’t personally piss me off.” Which is a rather narrow definition, don’t you think?
Kropadope
Can’t we all just agree that it is important to fully assess a situation, choose your target carefully, and only pull the trigger when appropriate?
kc
@SatanicPanic:
s
Right, IOW, #BrownLivesDontMatter.
Pie Happens (opiejeanne)
@trollhattan: Yes, mid-winter is usually depressing here. My first winter was all excitement at first that we get snow here. Oh, so pretty! (I moved from Anaheim) that degraded to longing for the ugly two inches to melt, and that was in March.
This summer has been a mixed bag of LOOK AT MY GARDEN!! and WHAT IS WITH THIS HEAT AND HUMIDITY???
We are wondering what El Nino will mean here, whether we’ll get a normal rainfall or way too much rain, and whether this will be a warm winter, which none of us wants.
A Ghost To Most
@Marmot:
“Extremism is the defense of [insert personal cause here] is no vice”
Goldwater, but the sentiment remains the same.
Just because it is YOUR cause, doesn’t mean it justifies any behavior you wish to take.
Should I start going into churches and yelling “You People are full of SHIT!”?
Ok, I actually did that once 45 years ago, but it was Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I like to think I’ve grown.
BobS
@SatanicPanic: Days of meaningless debate could have been avoided if you’d have just been around to explain what’s “important” and what’s not.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
Your second is paragraph is deep. The ends justifying the means has never meant any means in any ethical discussion, ever. There’s no need to explain it beyond your need to twist the premise for pearl clutching.
If you genuinely feel that protest and civil disobedience to raise awareness and create dialogue is going to lead to an any means necessary approach, then I can understand your fears. But I can’t say I share them.
SatanicPanic
@Kropadope: You’ll have to convince me that emoprogs actually believe that
srv
@Joel: Zero seep. Those pre-disposed to be offended will always emote.
J R in WV
@Brachiator:
I think Oathkeepers are military/LEO types who are convinced that they will be called upon to defend the constitution with violence and in opposition to the commanders of their military units or police departments.
In other words, commit treason just as Robert E Lee, Jeff Davis, NAthan Bedford Forrest, Stonewall Jackson, and their co-workers did.
On the face of it this will be to defend the nation from evil things NOT in the original constitution, like equal rights for the ni66ers, government health care for the poors, progressive income taxes on the highly advantaged wealthy, and similar un-American things like that.
TL;DR: Right wing nut jobs with military/police oaths they pretend will compel them to do combat with the federal government. As opposed to fighting illegal gangs with high-powered weapons who break the law when they please.
sharl
@MomSense: Thanks for that link. I’m guessing the author is the same person who commented on an (almost) dead thread here.
Man, oh man, Humboldt Blue in that thread…I’ve crossed paths with him in various blog comments for years, and was surprised, stunned and quite saddened to see that from him. (Especially his response to UNE, who’s probably crossed paths with him even more than I have over those years.)
Damn…
ETA – fixed the link (I hope).
ETA2 – nope. Just go to comment #178
White Trash Liberal
@kc:
Straw man. But whatever protects your precious feelings, bro.
kc
@kc:
More info about the effed-up bail system in this country here. (link is to Slate, but it’s a good article)
A Ghost To Most
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
No, effective is not pissing off your friends and allies. Bernie’s only use in this campaign is to attempt to move the Overton Window. When Bernie is done and HRC is the nominee, will the bad feelings be gone as well?
Question: should an atheist support a christian democrat who doesn’t support atheists?
Answer: Yes, because there are more than one issue at play here.
SatanicPanic
@BobS:
But here’s the thing- other than some lame conspiracy theories about BLM protesters, I think we’re all in agreement that BLM protesters actually believe in the things they are protesting. OTOH, emoprogs are notoriously full of it, so there’s no reason not to question their tactics. Whining about “uh if they were white” is missing an important point and sounds suspiciously close to whitesplaining and “ALL lives matter’ BS.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Given that the Sanders campaign added local BLM speakers to their appearance here in Los Angeles, it appears the Seattle protest was effective by any reasonable definition. I guess I don’t really see the indignation of individual Sanders supporters as being a significant downside when the candidate himself is acting in a responsive and respectful way.
kc
@White Trash Liberal:
Have it your way, Loud White Man.
White Trash Liberal
@A Ghost To Most:
Are atheists dying in the streets for the crime of wearing a hoodie or driving?
kc
@SatanicPanic:
LOL, so much bullshit in one post.
SatanicPanic
@kc: where am I wrong?
A Ghost To Most
@White Trash Liberal:
No, and I never said they were; but a black man can run for political office and win; an atheist can’t because of religious discrimination.
I do not have any quibble with BLMs ends; only what they are willing to do to meet those ends. It is counterproductive.
Joel
@srv: Oh Doug, you kill me.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@A Ghost To Most:
Sanders doesn’t seem to be pissed. Neither do Clinton or O’Malley. They all seem to be interested in listening to BLM’s concerns and making sure that a strong ally (and loyal voting bloc) feels like their concerns are being heard and taken seriously.
If BLM announces their support for Clinton in the general election, are you going to vote Republican or not vote because Sanders got interrupted two (2) times in public speeches?
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal:
I didn’t say that at all. You’re the one saying, with no qualifiers, that the ends justify the means and throwing MLK and Gandhi in the same bucket with Hitler.
Let’s put the syllogism together shall we?
The ends justify some means.
The ends do not justify some means.
Therefore, the ends do not justify the means.
Let’s look at the three BLM protests that have caught my attention. The Seattle and AZ Netroots protests resulted in Bernie making more to an effort to communicate his thoughts on race. Maybe good for him politically, but none of his positions changed and contrary to the popular assertion, he was already engaged on these issues. I would say the Seattle protest is at best a wash re: justification. The AZ one took the focus off another marginalized minority group he was trying to engage (and they were actually trying to engage him back, a novel approach), so the AZ protests were unjustified in my view.
Then there was the time they shut down MA traffic by blocking a major intersection. Wasting hours of millions of lives and threatening the life of someone being carried by ambulance who, incidentally, was black. That protest was not only unjustified, but harmful.
kc
@SatanicPanic:
For starters, the part where you just blow off the legitimate concerns about an odious, deadly policy by saying the people who voice the concerns are “full of it.”
Bubblegum Tate
@J R in WV:
Oh yeah, that too. A huge part of their mythos is that Obama will issue some unconstitutional order–they typically imagine it as Obama trying to implement martial law–and they will refuse the command and instead stick to their oath of defending against domestic enemies, which Obama will have (in their minds, already has) revealed himself to be.
Brachiator
@Bubblegum Tate:
But no official body raised them, and they get to define who the enemies are.
Seems like all these morons should immediately be arrested for interfering with law enforcement. And maybe shot immediately if they resist arrest. In an ideal world, of course.
BobS
@SatanicPanic: Is there some reliable way for me to get in contact with you so I’ll always know what’s really important and what I should be caring about (as opposed to the shit “nobody cares about”) ? In the meantime, I’ll be practicing walking while chewing gum.
SatanicPanic
@kc: Greenwald, deBoer, Stoller, Hamsher, et al. aren’t notoriously full of it? I’m not saying concerns about bombing in the middle east aren’t important. I’m saying their “concerns” are generally just a proxy for something else.
SatanicPanic
@BobS: You are repeating yourself.
Belafon
@A Ghost To Most: Make sure you use “Never look a gift horse in the mouth” and “The road to hell is paved with good intentions” before you leave.
Sometimes, extremism is justified, but it’s all a matter of perspective. Interrupting a speech is far less extreme than being killed in large numbers by cops.
BobS
@SatanicPanic: That’s sometimes necessary with the obtuse.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
They all go together because they applied that philosophy in different ways to very different conclusions.
Therefore, the moral centre of disobedience is what acts as the fulcrum, and that is what we judge. I am not saying there aren’t missteps. But interrupting Bernie is paying off rather well. And as allies we should withhold judgment and animosity and listen to the message.
And once again, we are talking in circles. So good day.
A Ghost To Most
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
That’s ridiculous – I will vote Democratic regardless (I haven’t voted for a Republican in decades).
I was an O-bot in 2008, and I saw how all the PUMAs reacted when their candidate got beat, and the schisms that occurred.
But don’t tell me that one cause in the progressive rights movement is the only one that counts, or that because it is your personal cause, it outweighs all the others. I have supported civil rights since I was 8 in 1964. Should I stop supporting others civil rights because many of my allies are christians who don’t support my rights to religious freedom?
SatanicPanic
@BobS: Says the guy who can’t think of anything new to say
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal:
Maybe for Bernie’s campaign approach, but not for anyone else that I can see.
Seems like shutting down a church service to then preach to the choir.
Shazza
@White Trash Liberal:
Hey I was called a paid troll too (on Crooks and Liars) Wonder when I’m getting this money.
Marmot
@A Ghost To Most:
All I did was write that on prayer cards! About the same effect, though.
Our side’s standard stance on the whole “ends justify the means” argument has never made sense to anyone who thinks it through. I wish we lefties would leave it in the past, along with New Age bullshit and Joni Mitchell.
Reading through more comments, I think you probably agree.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Unless the Boston protest led to meetings with the mayor and police commissioner with promises from them to change policing in the city, it was probably a failure, and they should choose a different tactic next time since that tactic was ineffective.
The AZ and Seattle protests led to all of the Democratic candidates — not just Sanders, but also Clinton and O’Malley — to realize that the concerns of a large and loyal voting bloc were not being addressed, and each of the candidates took action to address those concerns. Therefore, they were effective protests.
It seems weird to me that some Democrats are still pissed off about successful actions by people who are a necessary part of our coalition. As the Kos link above points out, there is no way in hell for the Democrat to win next year without the votes of black women. None. So ignoring and putting down those allies when they have a successful protest seems counter-productive to me, to say the least.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Right, because no one was talking about racial inequities before these protests. It certainly hasn’t been one of the biggest stories of the past year and none of the candidates said a word about race before Netroots.
It’s like the Glenn Beck approach to “no one is talking about it.” If you didn’t hear them talking about it*, then it wasn’t real.
*and didn’t research the matter
Big Wayne
The Oathkeepers are basically a group that wants to become a terrorist organization, but they just haven’t fired any shots or set off any bombs, yet. They’re trying to be very careful to situate themselves in such a way that they are fired upon first, so their actions can be seens as defensive. These are the extremists who flocked to the Bundy Ranch in Nevada in hopes of fighting a Civil War. And they have appeared in other hot spots, putting their heavily armed selves squarely in between criminals and the law enforcement.
They are a dangerous group. If anyone doubts anything I’ve said, look up their leader, Stuart Rhodes, or just watch some of the videos their members have released on YouTube. These are people who have turned their lives over to preparing for and agitating for an armed revolution and war with the United States.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@A Ghost To Most:
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but in this situation, you are the one acting like the PUMAs did.
Police violence is not the only cause right now, but it is the most urgent and pressing one, because people are actually DYING. Right now. Literally as we speak. I think that a recognition that people are dying and we need to stop it is more urgent than a discussion about how to save Social Securitu when it maybe possibly starts paying 75 percent of benefits 30 years from now.
When people protested the Iraq War, did you tell them to shut up and sit down because we needed to talk about economic issues instead? Well, this is a war, and it’s hard to talk about abstract economics when people are being killed in that war.
BobS
@SatanicPanic: …to the arbiter of all things important.
Belafon
@Big Wayne: They want to be bullies against anyone who has decided that the white male power structure doesn’t work any more. And they’re hoping people will be afraid of them with their guns.
kc
Protesters arrested on suspicion of having handguns, armed oath keepers allowed to roam at will.
Kropadope
@Belafon: and assuming, apparently correctly, that what remains of the white power structure has their back.
Marc
@A Ghost To Most:
The BLM people here seem blissfully unaware of the Golden Rule. If they attack over other people because they’re angry, apparently, it’s the fault of the other people if they get angry in response. Their issue is so important that they get to shout down anyone who cares about any other issue in any other forum. And, because their intentions are pure, anyone who disagrees with their tactics must be a racist (and, of course, they speak for all minorities.)
Given the way that this is going, it’s only a matter of time until they screw up massively enough to provoke a serious backlash that will render them irrelevant. It could be stomping over another group (women, other minorities); it could be documented provocateurs using them as an excuse; there are a lot of failure modes. They’re begging for a Sister Souljah moment, and when they do it they will find that all of the people they’ve antagonized will gleefully pile on. They deserve it; but the cause that they’re advocating doesn’t, and I hope that their inability to tell friend from foe doesn’t compromise the completely legit concerns about police brutality.
Mack
I know many of these so-called “oath keepers.” Mostly (and by that I mean 90%) they are just guys who love giving off the illusion that they are in “the fight.” They are attracted to armaments and the leathery clippy dangerous looking gear that is part of the charade. Haven’t met a bright one yet. Very much like those bozos that use to patrol around wearing red berets…it’s all about fronting as a bad-ass. One disclaimer, some of them have actual combat experience as they are veterans, but cannot put down the toys and that feeling of being a brother in arms.
Not sure how I feel about the whole BLM disruptive tactics mess. I might have liked to have seen huge numbers of their supporters show up and chant so loudly a speech is disrupted…but storming the stage will give the haters useful b-roll and I’m sorry, too many Americans are turned off by a lack of order. I’m not one of them, but they are everywhere. They are capable of being at least distant allies, and that’s important. I have been on the front lines of the immigration issue for nearly 50 years, and I guess I’m still tethered to the “educate don’t alienate.” We have people dying everyday as well, so please don’t flame me as someone who doesn’t get it. I’m saying I would have preferred different tactics, and I stated why. I can still keep my Progressive/Liberal card, right?
Bobby Thomson
@CONGRATULATIONS!: well done. Ratfucking the Sanders campaign by accusing all critics of being ratfuckers. That is what you’re doing, right?
Belafon
@Kropadope:
Part of the point is that there was lots of talking. Lots of talking that never went anywhere. The most significant civil rights actions over the last few years have been:
1. Expanded rights for gays.
2. The gutting of the VRA.
BLM would like to see something more than people being willing to talk about it – which, btw, is not the same as talking about it – and you know what, we have two of the three candidates coming up with policy positions.
kc
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
When did you first become aware of this?
Kropadope
@Marc:
See the AZ protest, stomping over another minority group did not invite that backlash.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
The candidates were not making it a priority in their campaigns. Now they are, thanks to the NN and Seattle protests.
When people are being shot dead in the street, that should take priority over economic issues. You’re not going to be able to solve economic issues immediately anyway, so why is it so upsetting to have them percolate while the urgent matter of people being killed is discussed? The first caucus is 5 months away. There’s plenty of time to discuss non-life threatening issues between now and then, especially once the people who agree with you on economic issues feel like you’re taking their issues seriously and addressing those issues respectfully. It’s better to have this conversation now rather than wait until the primaries start.
chopper
@Bubblegum Tate:
looking at your average oath keeper, it seems more that they intend to “drink all beers, foreign and domestic”.
Kropadope
@Belafon: Problem is that this is an issue that most closely involves local governments. Hasn’t Ferguson had local elections since the Michael Brown shooting? How did that turn out?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Commandeering a microphone is not a discussion.
ETA: I take every opportunity to raise awareness of issues important to BLM to my friends, family, Congressfolk, and anyone else who ill listen. I just don’t see that disrupting someone who, whether you think so or not, is already engaged on the issue really helps. Particularly when he’s not even running for an office that typically handles this type of thing.
Thoughtful Today
Two words need emphasis:
“well regulated”
Unregulated militias deliberately creating a hostile and threatening situation is why such militias need to be “well regulated”.
Cacti
A little background for the Bernie Sanders Seattle interruption, and the gated community progressives who are all hand wringing and lamenting “this is not the way” to BLM:
The Seattle Police Department has been under a consent decree with the US DOJ since July 2012, for a pattern of excessive force, negligent supervision, and civil rights violations.
The DOJ also found that the City of Seattle knew or should have known of inadequate supervision, training, policy, and procedures of SPD that would lead to civil rights violations.
DOJ Link
Bernie lavishly praised Seattle as “one of the most progressive cities in the country”. BLM begged to differ and were showered with boos by the “progressive” audience who had come to “feel the Bern”.
Mike J
@chopper:
Are you trying to recruit for them? That’s a cause I can get behind.
A Ghost To Most
Interesting. I am not the one dividing the party; I am saying that BLM is doing that. I will be voting Democrat regardless; I just don’t think you gain much by pissing off your allies. Is Bernie Sanders (who will almost certainly not be the nominee) really the hill they want to die on?
Why demonstrate at Democratic rallies rather than Republican rallies? Have you really accomplished anything by shutting down (and perhaps altering the behavior of) a vanity candidate in your own party? Is that effective, or does it just feel good? Does it move the movement forward, or does it just cause fracture lines, like the PUMAs did in 2008? What does it all mean when the primaries are over?
Marc
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): This is really weak logic. Because we have a big problem we can’t talk about any other problem? It’s justified to disrupt every other discussion of every other thing? This is especially rich because the connection between local police and the federal government is a lot weaker than the discussion on Medicare / Medicaid.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@kc:
Since I live in Los Angeles, around March of 1991. But, hey, let’s ignore the current public awareness and pressure for change — if something has been happening for decades, what’s the rush to fix it, amirite? It’s never a good time for a bus boycott, so why have one now?
Marc
@Kropadope: Give them time. Since there is a complete lack of sensitivity about using appropriate tactics, stepping across a line is only a matter of time and luck.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
And yet it did help. Sanders has added BLM speakers to his campaign stops.
I honestly don’t get why you’re clinging to the “it didn’t do anything” construction when they have ALREADY had some success. It obviously worked to get to the desired goal.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
So, why not protest…I don’t know… the Seattle city council? Seattle police headquarters? Any Seattle politician who in principle supports a pattern of excessive force, negligent supervision, and civil rights violations?
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Right, they got someone who, even under the most optimistic assumptions, can’t do anything about it to talk about it more. Good job!!!!
Aleta
Re the armed white Hoax-Keepers showing up at the demonstration
Of all the giant US hypocrisies, surely the biggest is the puffed up white guy parading with his gun for open carry rights, while POC are being shot on sight for reaching for a wallet, walking with a toy, holding merchandise in a store.
sharl
@Kropadope: Local Ferguson activists and Dem politicians, along with volunteer student groups from around the nation, WORKED THEIR ASSES OFF in preparation for that election, with positive (though not overwhelming) results. I discussed it in a comment (#80) back in April, and LA Times reporter Matt Pearce wrote about the election.
Lots of Black folk in Ferguson and neighboring communities are renters and – by virtue of their financial situations, complicated by local government leaders/vampires directing their police to write as many tickets as possible to fund municipal coffers – in situations that make registering to vote or actually voting a very difficult thing. There may be legal restrictions on voting by people convicted of a crime too, although I’ve forgotten if that’s an issue in the Ferguson-North County area.
Cacti
International Journal of Critical Pedagogy, Vol 3, No. 3
White Fragility
Robin DiAngelo, PhD
White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race-based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as White Fragility. White Fragility is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation. These behaviors, in turn, function to reinstate white racial equilibrium.
The following are examples of the kinds of challenges that trigger racial stress for white people:
Suggesting that a white person’s viewpoint comes from a racialized frame of reference (challenge to objectivity);
People of color talking directly about their own racial perspectives (challenge to white taboos on talking openly about race);
People of color choosing not to protect the racial feelings of white people in regards to race (challenge to white racial expectations and need/entitlement to racial comfort);
People of color not being willing to tell their stories or answer questions about their racial experiences (challenge to the expectation that people of color will serve us);
A fellow white not providing agreement with one’s racial perspective (challenge to white solidarity); Receiving feedback that one’s behavior had a racist impact (challenge to white racial innocence);
Suggesting that group membership is significant (challenge to individualism);
An acknowledgment that access is unequal between racial groups (challenge to meritocracy);
Being presented with a person of color in a position of leadership (challenge to white authority);
Being presented with information about other racial groups through, for example, movies in which people of color drive the action but are not in stereotypical roles, or multicultural education (challenge to white centrality).
Not often encountering these challenges, we withdraw, defend, cry, argue, minimize, ignore, and in other ways push back to regain our racial position and equilibrium.
Link
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@A Ghost To Most:
Again, who are the allies who are pissed off? The three leading candidates are all responding to the pressure from BLM. Like it or not, all of the candidates seem to recognize that this is an issue that is important to their voters that needs to be discussed and addressed.
If you feel like your issues are being ignored but you’re going to vote for the Democrat anyway, congratulations — you now understand how Black voters have felt for about 30 years now.
A Ghost To Most
@Cacti:
Seattle IS, despite its police force, one of the most progressive cities in the country.
The same could be said for Denver, whose police force is troglodyte at best.
Are you implying that Benie was lying? Or that the people at the rally were booing because the protestors were black? It couldn’t have been because they were preventing Bernie from speaking to 1000s who came to listen to him speak?
Belafon
@Kropadope: In the same way that Jim Crow involved local governments.
boatboy_srq
@Thoughtful Today: The Founding Fathers really dropped the ball when they omitted from the Constitution the item from the AofC mandating that each state organize and provide for a militia for national defense. It would be instructive to see the ammosexuals simultaneously exposing their massive
manhoodarsenals and whingeing that serving in a real, state-sponsored-and-directed militia was some horrific imposition.Bubblegum Tate
@Brachiator:
Exactly. Pretty nifty, right? Couple that with the whole “we are agitating for civil war, but we want you to fire the first shot!” thing mentioned upthread and…well, it’s a pretty shitty picture, isn’t it?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Clinton and O’Malley are also talking about it more, releasing specific position papers, etc. The Sanders actions are just getting more publicity because of the two interruptions.
If neither Clinton, Sanders, nor O’Malley has a shot at the nomination, who do you picture is going to suddenly appear between now and January to take it?
Belafon
@A Ghost To Most: You know how Obama, and every president, says we’re the greatest nation on earth. Just like the leaders of just about every country on earth. They can’t all be the greatest country on earth.
Paul in KY
@Cacti: Excellent point to be made by BLM there. Seattle police are among the worst, IMO.
Tree With Water
How many combined electoral votes does Missouri have? And the states surrounding it? ?
It’s easier to make a bad situation worse than it is to make better. Throw in the possibility of a significant electoral gains to be enjoyed by manipulating voters disaffection, and “let’s turn a blind eye to the oaf kreepers” strategy starts making a lot of sense (i.e., ‘oath keepers’). There’s votes in them thar riots.
If you think that’s beyond the pale, keep in mind today’s republican party plots war for power and mammon. The 2015 GOP is a domestic enemy of our democracy. Only a deeply held aversion, instilled by memories of Joe McCarthy’s onslaught, prevents most democrats from screaming it from the rooftops, much less admitting the full implications of that rude truth to themselves. It’s long past time they wised up.
Cacti
@A Ghost To Most:
And the Bernistas wonder why the get they get the side eye from BLM and a large majority of black voters.
Seattle is one of the whitest major cities in the US, and its “progressive” government and “progressive” majority white population blithely sailed through their day to day, either unaware or unconcerned that their municipal police department was pack of racist, lawless brutes that had to be brought to heel by outside intervention.
If that’s progressive, whose definition of progressive are we using?
BobS
@Kropadope: who probably could have been convinced to address it anyway (not that he already hadn’t to some extent) had he been approached in a more conventional manner. I’m guessing the Arizona and Seattle sideshows were just to refine the act for the Cruz and Walker mainstage appearances they seem to have avoided so far — kind of the way Martin Luther King practiced shouting down Pete Seeger before sharing the spotlight with Bull Connor.
A Ghost To Most
@Belafon:
BHO ends almost every speech with “God Bless the United States of America”.
I love the guy, but that sop to the pious denigrates the rest of us. We don’t interrupt his speeches, though.
And fuck that American exceptionalism stuff.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kropadope: Would you be aware of the group if they stuck to protesting places like the Seattle city council? I doubt it.
White Trash Liberal
@Cacti:
Which the protestor pointed out, but apparently all anyone listened to was her angry tone.
Lots of progressives showing their ass today.
A Ghost To Most
@Cacti:
Unfortunately, the American standard. We are comparing it with cities like Birmingham and Ferguson.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
The president isn’t the whole government. He or she isn’t even most of it. The cult of the presidency needs to die.
Kropadope
@Omnes Omnibus:
No, most likely not. I would, however, still be aware of the relevant issues and still bringing them up to the unaware. The Seattle city council, meanwhile, would be far more aware.
Cacti
@White Trash Liberal:
Down in Tacoma, where I work, a local vintage arcade owner stormed out and started shouting racial slurs at BLM demonstrators who were commemorating the anniversary of Michael Brown’s death, marching peacefully, and violating no laws.
Yeah, objections to them are all about their tone.
White Trash Liberal
@Cacti:
Philadelphia, Chicago, NYC, LA and Baltimore also have historical problems with police and race relations yet can boast of progressivism. But is it truly progress when law and order is used to cage black lives and black opinion?
This is the new Jim Crow. In 50 years it will be looked upon as such while the white progressive space busily concerns itself with tactics and skirmishes and tone.
Kropadope
@Cacti: Oh, Cacti, always trying to hang people on BJ with the actions of people not on BJ.
dedc79
@Cacti: Given that your complaint is that people are unfairly mischaracterizing or generalizing about BLM, you might consider avoiding using similarly crude and overbroad generalizations about Sanders supporters. If credibility is something you care about, that is.
A Ghost To Most
I@White Trash Liberal:
Because the progressive movement is ENTIRELY about black civil rights.
My gay son will be glad to know.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Sorry, but if you lived through the Bush II years and still think it’s unimportant whether a Democrat or a Republican wins the presidency in 2016, then you’re pretty much hopeless at this point.
Thoughtful Today
LOL!-)
“I just finished listening to the interview with the accused tea partier. She was eloquent and her reasoning for the interruption was sound.”
You sooooo trolled me. My bad.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
African-American Voters: The Overlooked Key to 2016
http://cookpolitical.com/story/8666
Still have no idea why the Democratic candidates are listening to BLM?
Cacti
@White Trash Liberal:
It’s as Dr. King said when he wrote from Birmingham Jail. The greatest barrier to the efforts of the civil rights movement wasn’t from the hooded Klansmen, who was clear in his opposition, but from the lukewarm “allies” who prefered negative peace (the absence of conflict) to the messy work needed to bring positive peace (the presence of justice).
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Hmmm…not what I said at all. In fact, it seems closer to what you’re arguing.
Belafon
@A Ghost To Most: The point being that it was something the group in front of him wanted to hear. Now that points to one of two things:
1. Either Sanders didn’t know about the city’s investigation
2. He didn’t want to mention it for some reason.
Now, a big reason could be that this was a Social Security event that he was invited to speak at, not his own rally.
planetjanet
@MomSense: That was an AMAZING diary. Thanks for sharing.
LAC
@ruemara: and I have said this a thousand times before: if we had to rely on what passes for progressivism on this site for civil rights back in the day , we would still be drinking out of separate water fountains, while being patronized about some politician’s baby steps.
Belafon
@A Ghost To Most: I see you’d love to say “All lives matter.”
Since you’re into quotes, how about this one: “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” MLK Jr.
dedc79
@Belafon: I don’t think we need to spend a lot of time trying to decipher the motivation behind it. Campaign speeches have a rock concert component to them. And the first thing a rock band does at every concert is tell the crowd how great they are, that this is their favorite place to play, etc.. That’s all this was. He probably had the recent minimum wage hike (also a big deal) on his mind too.
White Trash Liberal
@A Ghost To Most:
Did I fucking say that?
And I’m sure you know why gay marriage became a civil rights issue. Because gay men were dying and had no right to be visited by their spouse. Lots had to die unnecessarily and alone because of bigotry. And SO MANY TIMES gay activists were to told to keep it down because it was embarrassing or hurting their cause.
I mean holy shit are you dancing a jig right now. Black lives are in danger from birth to old age from a host of conditions that we as white people (especially males) are not privy to. But you want to tell them how to be upset about this and wave your allyship in everyone’s fave as conditional depending on decorum.
Lots of LGBT fought vocally and stridently for the right your son can enjoy. I know of this personally. Very very personally. And the fight is not over for them or for all disenfranchised peoples in this country.
Paul in KY
@Cacti: What a dickhead.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
In what way am I arguing that it doesn’t matter if a Republican or Democrat gets elected president next year?
Read my link above. African-American turnout has been higher than white turnout in the last two presidential elections. African-American voters saved the Democrat’s bacon in Virginia’s governor’s race. And you think it’s a GOOD strategy to tell those voters to sit down and shut up?
Cacti
@A Ghost To Most:
Because there’s no such thing as gay black men or lesbian black women.
Thoughtful Today
!
Credit Bernie for being able to separate a valid message from the messengers:
https://BernieSanders.com/issues/racial-justice
Kropadope
@Kropadope: That is, the implicit threat of abandonment of the Democrats by black women. I’m just saying the president doesn’t rule everything at all levels.
Belafon
@dedc79: You’re right, and I’ve pretty much fallen into the trap of “If I can show him he’s wrong about this, maybe he’ll figure everything out” and I shoudl stop.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
“I don’t think your approach is right” does not equal “sit down and shut up.” The only one being told to sit down and shut up seems to be Bernie Sanders.
See my update at 281. I missed the submission deadline for the edit comment.
Cacti
@Thoughtful Today:
Right.
Couldn’t possibly be that BLM’s “tone” is having its intended effect with the intended targets.
Geeno
Congratulations – Bernie is pulled away from only real purpose – trying to make sure HRC doesn’t go all Goldman-Sachs on us – so he can now look like he knuckled under to a fringe group, that other candidates will subsequently have to Sister Soldja if they want to look “serious”. You now possess one under-funded candidate who was going nowhere anyway.
Your only hope now is that “serious” no longer has the make-or-break meaning it used to.
Cacti
@Geeno:
Supporter of the “progressive” candidate is upset that the “progressive” candidate listened to the “fringe group” otherwise known as African-Americans.
A Ghost To Most
@Belafon:
What if gay people had shut down BHO rallies in 2008 because he wasn’t supporting them the way they wanted? It took him 6 years to come around (with a little help from Joe Biden), but he did. We gave him the leeway to evolve.
Would the folks supporting BLM now have been so generous?
White Trash Liberal
@Geeno:
100% White Privilege. Frozen from concentrate. Just add tears and stir.
Kropadope
@A Ghost To Most: I’m gay and I personally thought gay groups were being far too impatient with Obama in 2009-10 when he was setting up the groundwork for the impressive, ultimately-successful legal challenges to anti-gay law in the U.S.
Cacti
@Kropadope:
“I don’t think your approach is right” does equal “I only want to hear about your concerns at a time, place, and manner, and in a tone I find inoffensive.”
Maybe they could also throw in a foot massage while they’re at it.
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal:
Kropadope
@Cacti:
I’d rather find a way we can work together. For this I’m told I’m a racist, that I want to wait patiently while black people die, that I don’t care, and that I want to silence a movement I wholeheartedly agree with, in principle if not in approach.
Gravenstone
@Patrick:
I believe the unspoken second verse of the commandment is “if thou art kilt first”
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Sanders was being told to shut up and listen. He did. He added a new press secretary and new speakers to his rallies.
Again, I’m not getting how BLM’s strategy was “unsuccessful” except for online (mostly) white people who are upset that it was successful.
Geeno
Aim higher – right now this just looks like you don’t like Bernie.
As long as it’s just you and Bernie, you don’t mean anything; Bernie – much as I like the guy – wasn’t going anywhere anyway.
Move on to another target – or you will become as fringe as Bernie.
Or is that just my white privilege speaking.
White Trash Liberal
@Kropadope:
And you don’t find what Geeno said to be patently absurd? Nah, better to score a cheap shot on me because I support BLM and listen rather than critique their evolution. An evolution that is improving the dialogue.
If you want to be right so bad, just plug your ears and close your eyes.
kc
I remember those times when Obama spoke in Seattle and opened with remarks acknowledging what a racist shithole the place is.
Thoughtful Today
Cacti, if you have a blog are you going to give me front page access?
I have a list of things that demand immediate attention.
I’m looking forward to being a regular front page blogger on your website :)
Elie
@Cacti:
@White Trash Liberal:
Amen to both of you..
That said, truth finding and truth telling are ongoing processes. We see a lot more — know a lot more now than we did. Moral leadership always starts in your own soul and as hard as the lift is in the outer world, its hardest always confronting our true selves…..
Gravenstone
@Elmo:
Won’t those dumbfucks be shocked when my face allows me into their camps, but find that my weapons aren’t turned outward against the “other”.
A Ghost To Most
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
There is a difference between tactics and strategy. You need to make sure your tactics are conducive to your strategery. You can win a battle and still lose the war.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Geeno:
You’re too young to remember the 1992 campaign, aren’t you? It was 23 years ago, after all.
Clinton and O’Malley are already communicating and cooperating with BLM and have been since NetRoots Nation. So much for the impending Sista Soulja-ing.
Cacti
@Kropadope:
If you find yourself in the position that you can lament the tone of a group that is fighting for their lives, you occupy the privileged seat, and should probably be doing more listening than instructing.
Bernie, to his credit, seems to be listening and adapting. His supporters, OTOH, have their dander up and want to tell BLM “the right way” to declare that their lives matter.
Racial paternalism is racism’s ugly twin.
A Ghost To Most
@Cacti:
Oh please. I am not a Sanders supporter. At All. I think he is a vanity candidate, trying to move the Overton Window.
I just don’t think it is helpful to say that only one cause in the progressive movement is worth fighting for.
Gay people get killed by white thugs too.
kc
Heh.
Cacti
@A Ghost To Most:
Supporter or no, your complaints toward BLM are rooted in paternalistic concerns over tone.
In other words, Hey, BLM, I agree that your lives matter and all, but could you just say it a little more politely.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Sometimes you have to let people talk themselves out — even vent — before they can sit down with you and work out a solution. Attacking and dismissing them before they’re done venting only makes it worse and makes the process longer.
Let’s say you’re in a situation with your partner where your partner is upset because they feel like most of the housework burden is falling on them. They’ve been feeling like this for a while, so when they try to talk to you about it, they address you angrily.
In this situation, what’s the more productive response — to sit by and let them state their case until they calm down? Or to get your feelings hurt and start attacking back because they started it by getting angry, so you’re totally justified in striking back and not listening?
Thoughtful Today
!-o
Cacti:
Some of the bloggers I’ve skimmed the last few days have insisted that random protesters must be given the microphone to make their case.
Those same bloggers don’t have open comment sections and would likely go ballistic if someone hacked their blog to put forth whatever issues they felt were of immediate importance … and if those hackers then topped it off by insulting that bloggers entire audience ….
Logic train wreck.
kc
@Cacti:
WWOD
http://3chicspolitico.com/2015/06/24/president-obama-to-heckler-youre-in-my-house-glbt-white-house-reception/
Geeno
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): I remember the 1968 campaign when purity ponies condemned this country to a rightward shift it’s still stuck in. The left hasn’t been a political entity in this country since Hubert Humphrey felt he needed to win back the “Wallace Democrats”. It’s been downhill since.
So HRC won’t “Sista Soldja” them; she’ll co-opt them instead. Happy-happy-joy-joy.
Geeno
@Cacti: Right back atcha.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): There are just too many unknowns with your example, but if I think this person is off base, I should feel free to tell them so.
Liquid
Big Smile!
Kropadope
@White Trash Liberal: I think you’re both absurd.
A Ghost To Most
@Cacti:
No, not even close. You just don’t think anyone else has the right to include their concerns in the discussion. Apparently, only race matters.
One issue voters, just like the Right-to-Lifers. Apparently I am a racist for believing that the progressive movement can be more.
My family of proto-fascists would be so amused.
White Trash Liberal
@Thoughtful Today:
Bloggers aren’t running for president as a left progressive.
And you changed your tone and approach, emphasizing social justice when you called me a race pimp for doing the same thing.
And in the meanwhile, blacks are dying and being arrested in Ferguson a year after Michael Brown’s death while armed white vigilantes roam unmolested.
Thoughtful Today
!
“purity ponies”!!!
I want one! No, I want a dozen!-)
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Geeno:
So African-American voters are just like “Wallace Democrats”?
Wow. I don’t think your metaphor works as well in actual words as it did inside your head.
Cacti
@White Trash Liberal:
And a black journalist just got a criminal summons to St. Louis County court for a trespass charge, based on his flagrant act of eating in McDonalds while being a black journalist from out of town, which led to his bogus arrest by a thug cop.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Should you tell them while you’re both angry, or should you wait until you both calm down and address it then when you also address the larger issues?
Yelling back at someone who’s yelling at you never ends well.
Kropadope
@Mnemosyne (iPhone): Who’s yelling? This is a text format.
ETA: And if you were to infer a tone from what I have typed, you would most likely find explanatory and sarcasm to be most prevalent.
A Ghost To Most
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
this cuts both ways.
Thoughtful Today
Trolls come in all shapes and sizes.
Armed militant trolls are absolutely the worst.
But someone demanding respect while being deliberately disrespectul, that’s a special kind of troll.
kc
It looks some of us are not entirely consistent in our response to protesters. Seems to be based on whether the protesters are coming at our faves.
A Ghost To Most
@Thoughtful Today:
Who knew Jack Handey comments here?
Thoughtful Today
The last few days I’ve been hearing a lot of:
‘How dare you be disrespectful to those that treated you with disrespect!’
I’ve had to remind myself:
Ignore the messenger but listen and consider the message, and if it’s a valid message that is important, adopt the message.
Cacti
@kc:
Which elected office does Michelle Obama hold, and which one was she running for?
And if your answer is First Lady, could you direct me to the Article of the Constitution that lists the enumerated powers of this office.
Kthxbai.
A Ghost To Most
what if the messenger interrupts a different messenger? what if both messages are valid and important? does only one message count?
Geeno
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Hear what you want read what you want.
There are none so blind as those who will not see. Lets’ splinter the party and see if any of us gets anything except the shit our enemies throw at us as they laugh.
You people are way too secure that Trump will drag them down.
I seem to recall a recent grassroots movement that was decentralized. But TV wants to talk to people – so they appointed leaders and paid them to say stuff. Within a few months those “leaders” were happy to put the movement seal of approval on anyone/thing that flashed enough cash.
The Tea Party was overtaken almost as soon as it founded – grifters abound on the right, and admittedly it mostly about racism – the “common clay of the new west” is what it is after all.
Are black people just too innocent and naive for that to happen – as Cacti seems to think? I’m thinking no. HRC gives the anointed leaders she’ll recognize a few bucks and a seat the grownups’ table, and pop goes the movement.
FFS, organize and DO SOMETHING other than pester an old man.
kc
@Cacti:
Who are you to dictate to a protester when, how, and where she should protest? Typical cis-het white dudebro shite.
/Cacti
gian
I’m confused. People “guarding” a right wing conspiracy show host at a community protest with AR 15s is like unarmed people yelling at a 2nd tier presidential candidate and dissuading him from talking are alike somehow?
We’re the BLM folks carrying guns?
I thought they were just hoping to get some media coverage with all the cameras focused on the great not Hillary
kc
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
I actually agree with this for the most part. :D
Even though I think these particular Seattle women acted like jerks, if all of the Democratic candidates start giving meaningful attention to criminal justice reform, that will be a good thing (and by meaningful attention I mean putting forth specific, concrete proposals and goals). I’ll be glad to credit Black Lives Matter activists.
In fact, I do credit them for keeping sustained attention on these issues for a year now.
BobS
@kc: That was an illuminating trip back in time.@Cacti: Can you split that hair any finer?
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Kropadope:
Sorry, the metaphor was supposed to be not me and you on this website, but the BLM protesters and the people complaining about those protesters. Sorry it wasn’t clear.
Cacti
@BobS:
I learn such illuminating things at BJ. Like a sitting US Senator and Presidential candidate are the same as a political blog, and a President’s wife.
Because Bernie Sanders.
I’ve also learned that black voters are fringe group, that they’re like Wallace Democrats in 1968, and that they need to insist that their lives matter at more convenient times and in more pleasing tones.
Did I miss anything?
Emma
Three (four actually) things I have learned:
1. White liberals have our best interests at heart. They just want things to happen their way on their time frame.
2. White liberals get to set the agenda and list the goals in order of importance.
3. White liberals get to decide what success is. Other people, using other methods are, by definition, not successful.
4. Bernie Sanders is (1) the second coming of Christ; (2) an annoying vanity candidate; (3) a super-sensitive little flower that cannot resist the slightest breeze. And I don’t think he’s any of those, but hey….
At least there’s something we can all (I HOPE TO GOD ALMIGHTY) agree on. We better back whoever comes out of the mud bath. Because the crazies are out there.
Apologies to all of those white liberals who aren’t like this. I just wanted to use as much sweeping generalization as I could.
Kropadope
@Cacti:
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Geeno:
The BLM protesters ARE doing something, and all three Democratic candidates are listening to them and treating them with respect despite the disruption they caused.
The “division” is happening because some people can’t let go of their anger about the interruption long enough to listen to the message. The candidates all think BLM’s message is worth stopping to listen to even if those candidates’ supporters don’t.
A Ghost To Most
Wow,@Emma:
and white liberals have learned that we can’t have our own agendas; we are (apparently) racist if we do. good to know.
Thoughtful Today
Things I’m hearing from people that don’t know me:
My decades long support of your issues isn’t important.
Your concerns are more important than my concerns even when my concerns include your concerns.
Disrespect is useful unless I disrespect you.
Cacti
@Geeno:
If he’s too old to be pestered, he’s too old to be POTUS.
Geeno
@A Ghost To Most: It’s a black thing, apparently – you wouldn’t understand.
Geeno
@Cacti: OMG – noticed that did you? I do recall saying the guy wasn’t going anywhere.
Pester someone who matters or is Bernie as high as BLM can reach?
Kropadope
@Cacti: This isn’t all about Bernie. Every well-publicized BLM protest has been idiotic. I personally don’t ascribe to the view that “there’s no such thing as bad press.”
A Ghost To Most
@Geeno:
Thoughtful Today said it much better; my fifty year commitment to social justice doesn’t mean shit because I thought it was rude and counterproductive to interrupt a candidate who I don’t even support.
Kropadope
@Geeno:
Why would BLM want to upset the power structure?
Cacti
@Geeno:
It’s tought to be white in America these days.
It’s been 6 whole years since white people controlled all 3 branches of the federal government rather than just 2.
BobS
@Cacti: You missed your learning to be more than a little disingenuous, with your pretending Michelle Obama holds less sway in the corridors of power than Bernie Sanders (not to mention the greater public recognition and Secret Service protection she enjoys). But then I might have missed the comment where you defined appropriate/not appropriate targets of protest.
Emma
@A Ghost To Most: And you win the generalization stakes. No, you can have your own agenda. But it would be nice if you could negotiate so some other people’s could be enacted also.
Cacti
@Kropadope:
A man who’s been a member of Congress for 24 years, and is the ranking member of the Senate Budget Committee isn’t part of the power structure?
A Ghost To Most
@Cacti:
Yea, and it’s been 230+ years since rational people (ie non-book-beaters) controlled even one branch.
It’s really tough being a xian in America these days.
Thoughtful Today
Erm, Emma:
https://BernieSanders.com/issues/racial-justice
A Ghost To Most
@Emma:
Hey, when religion is private, and atheists can get elected. my agenda will be fulfilled.
I’ve been working for civil rights for 50 years for everyone
Sorry you feel that only your issues count. I will still support your cause, even though it appears you wouldn’t support mine. Are you as dismissive of gay rights as well?
Thoughtful Today
heh:
“Hey, when religion is private, and atheists can get elected. my agenda will be fulfilled.”
Amen, brother ;)
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@A Ghost To Most:
Do you remember the Great Patricia Arquette Kerfuffle of 2015 after she said something inartful at the Oscars about how everyone needs to work together for equal pay? I do and, as a white person and specifically a white feminist, this is what I learned from it:
1). African-Americans don’t trust white liberals to prioritize their issues. Black women in particular don’t trust white feminists. This is based on many decades of black issues being pushed to the back burner and even denigrated as “social issues” that are unworthy of immediate attention. “Economic issues” is much more of a sore spot than you seem to realize, because AAs (and women, and GLBT) have frequently been told that “economic issues” should always trump mere “social issues” like racism, misogyny, and homophobia.
2). Because AAs believe — quite rationally — that their issues will be ignored unless they make an unignorable fuss, they don’t believe white progressives when white progressive claim that their issues dovetail with AA issues and we should all work together. AA activists have long experience working with white liberals, only to have their issues put on the back burner over and over again.
3). If you want support from AAs, you need to show that you are willing to help with their issues first and then ask them for help on issues that affect everyone. Is this fair to you, personally, who has always supported civil rights? No, but it also wasn’t fair that Sandra Bland was arrested for driving while black and died in jail or that John Crawford was killed by police for playing with an air gun at Wal-Mart, so suck it up.
All three of the major Democratic candidates seem to understand this dynamic. Hopefully other white liberals will wake the fuck up and figure it out, or there will be a whole lot more threads like this before November 2016.
A Ghost To Most
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Take that speech, replace African-American with atheist, and replace white liberal/progressive with christian, and read it back to yourself.
Atheists are constantly being told (even by democrats) to STFU. Probably even by you.
Cognitive Dissonance much?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@A Ghost To Most:
Oh, boo-hoo, white atheists are just as oppressed as African-Americans! No, more oppressed! Look at how they’re shooting white atheists in the streets, or imprisoning them in record numbers! No one has ever been more oppressed than the middle-class white atheist!
Tell you what, you go to Michael Brown’s or Eric Garner’s or Sandra Bland’s family and tell them that YOU are more oppressed than they are. Tell John Crawford’s family that, sure, it’s bad that he was shot down like a dog and bled to death on the floor of a Wal-Mart, but at least he wasn’t treated as badly as you have as an atheist. Tell the family of Tamir Rice that you’re sorry about their child’s death, but at least now he won’t have to be worried about facing the same kind of horrendous discrimination you’ve faced as a white, middle-class atheist. I’m sure that will go over well.
Geeno
@Cacti: Your fight now – I have my own problems and being shot by the police isn’t likely to become one – go knock yourself out.
Sly
@Mnemosyne (tablet):
Yup. There is a reason why the multi-racial coalition has been the Holy Grail of leftist politics in America, and it’s not because black people have refused to get with the program while white liberals have been reduced to begging for their support.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@A Ghost To Most:
And since you want to play Oppression Olympics, don’t forget to tell Mark Carson’s parents that it’s a shame their son was murdered by a homophobe, but it’s really your struggle as a white middle-class atheist that they should be thinking about, not their bereavement.
LAC
@A Ghost To Most: is there a strategy to your atheist whinging or is it too damn hard to actually take a look at what you wrote and perhaps take a breath and shut the fuck up and listen? for an atheist you sure seem to worship regularly at The church of the latter day ME ME ME ME!!!
Sly
@A Ghost To Most:
Black people who have been murdered with impunity by the state cannot vote for anyone. Not even an atheist candidate.
LAC
@Geeno: oh good… So you are done. How will we ever win a fight without you on the sidelines going ” that’s not it”? What will we do? ????
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Sly:
Ironically, Ghost’s response is pretty much verbatim what people (thought they*) heard Arquette say at the Oscars, Enough about your issues, what about MMMMEEEEE?!?!?
* I still think that Arquette was trying to say that men of all races and orientations need to support women of all races and orientations, but she flubbed it when she tried to improv an expansion backstage.
kc
@Cacti:
In other words, you only want to hear about gay people’s concerns at a time, place, and manner, and in a tone you find inoffensive.
Maybe they could also throw in a foot massage while they’re at it.
Geeno
@LAC: Continue to watch blacks get murdered.
The only difference will be that I will no longer allow it to affect my own happiness in any way.
Black lives are not my life, so why should I care?.
Thoughtful Today
Erm,
‘Economic issues’ have been trumped by social issues for 40* years.
The middle class collapsed, poverty increased, inequality exploded as a tinier minority of the wealthiest just sucked more and more and more decades of profit out of the entire economy.
Meanwhile my gay relative can marry, the nation elected a mixed race President named Hussein, and I’ll vote for a woman President if the man I want to become President doesn’t win the Primary.
* 80 years by many measures.
LAC
@Geeno: oh honey don’t explain.. I didn’t think you gave a damn anyway and just got bored switching the on and off buttons on the tilt a whirl at the fair or trying to make your frozen pizzas taste a less like tomato cardboard and that is why you came here. We were never relying on you.
kc
@Geeno:
Please don’t let a few asshole blog commenters (or dingbat hecklers) (or Cacti, who is as obnoxious as any ten trolls) throw you off a truly important cause that affects all of us.
Geeno
@LAC: @LAC: Good – cause you lost me this thread.
Black lives no longer matter to me.
kc
@Geeno:
Okay, please stop.
Thoughtful Today
!
Economics riddles “social issues” like racism and misogyny.
That Blacks have higher unemployment rates than Whites or Hispanics is an economic issue.
That women only earn 78%(?!) of what men make is an economic issue.
Ferguson, Missouri using FINES that fraked mostly blacks to fund the city is an economic issue.
If you are serious about addressing racism and misogyny you have to address economic inequality that falls disproportionately on blacks and women and black women.
https://BernieSanders.com/issues/racial-justice
kc
@Thoughtful Today:
Reposting this link, but Sandra Bland being stuck in jail on a bullshit violation because she couldn’t make bail is partly an economic issue, in addition to being a criminal justice and racial issue.
A Ghost to Most
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
oh bullshit. I recognize that the black experience has been/continues to be far worse than anything I have ever experienced. It is the most important issue, but not the only issue. Nice strawman, though.
Do you ignore issues of importance to women because racism is more important? I doubt it. I’m sure there are issues of importance to you that you continue to support, even though racism/police violence is more pressing.
But to say that racism reduces all other issues to insignificance is myopic, and it denigrates the other groups in the progressive movement.
What if a group of committed atheists were to prevent a Christian candidate from speaking because s/he was not receptive to their message of getting religion out of politics? Most (perhaps you?) would say they were rude and counterproductive.But double standards are not just the preserve of the right wing.
Geeno
@kc: If they don’t need anyone, their problems can’t be that bad. They should just quit whining about them already.
A Ghost to Most
Same as it ever was. Support people who decline to return the favor.
LAC
@A Ghost to Most: too bad you don’t believe, because there is a wooden cross and some nails with your name on it. ??????
Thoughtful Today
Thank you for reminding, kc, this simultaneously breaks my heart and enrages me:
“Sandra Bland being stuck in jail on a bullshit violation because she couldn’t make bail is partly an economic issue, in addition to being a criminal justice and racial issue.”
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/07/sandra_bland_is_the_bail_system_that_kept_her_in_prison_unconstitutional.html
Betty Cracker
@Geeno:
via GIPHY
Thoughtful Today
Erm …
Christians have often advocated murdering gays.
An atheist blogger was just murdered overseas.
I’d like to think that the murder of anyone is a bad thing.
Extremist groups are a serious issue and I’ve dearly appreciated Bernie addressing it directly and unflinchingly.
A Ghost to Most
@LAC:
And a hearty fuck you to you as well. I forgot, no one but black people can have an issue with the way American really works.
At least I am a veteran, and have earned the right to my beliefs. Can you say the same?
LAC
@A Ghost to Most: no, but my dad is a WW2 veteran who got spit on and called a nigger while he was in uniform. He is 91 and has lived a lifetime that would astonish a fucknuts like you. So fuck you, and fuck your bullshit attempt to immunize yourself with your service. You are an asshole.
SiubhanDuinne
@Thoughtful Today:
Also, Hallelujah! and Preach it!!
Ruckus
@Applejinx:
Two things.
First. Well stated. Sanders is an old white guy from a very white state. He’s been around long enough and done enough to be a very progressive person both in the area of black lives and economics. I bet he cares about black lives as much as anyone. He has responded well to what I’d call a desperate but necessary tactic, which seems to have worked well. His new spokesperson is a BLM founder as I understand it. And very polished and good it looks like as well. It’s a political campaign, I’d bet he started out very low key, organization wise, just to see what would happen. He’s gotten good responses so he needed to take it up a few notches, and he has. Compare him to the 2008 Hillary campaign. He’s miles ahead both in policy and in politics. Fortunately Hillary learned as well. We have, even if not inundated with, choices. Good choices. That’s unusual in a primary in this country. Unheard of in a republican primary.
Second.
I spend a productive day at work and come back to find that BJ’s toilet has backed up and over flowed. People, we have a much bigger enemy than each other. Focus here. If you are butthurt, rub some lotion on and think about what’s important. And move the fuck on.
kc
@Ruckus:
But …
You are right, of course. I’m annoyed with myself for spending so much time on this; I need to focus on the big picture.
kc
Am I in moderation or is it just that one comment … it’s just a link to a cat meme, geez.
chopper
@A Ghost to Most:
what in all fuck is this bullshit?