Members of Black Lives Matter (BLM) stormed the podium at a Bernie Sanders rally in Seattle, forcing Bernie from the stage without him being able to address the crowd of thousands who came to hear his message of raising the plight of those struggling in America. No matter how calm and peaceful the crowd was, and no matter what organizers promised in regard to allowing them to speak, these individuals simply wanted to commandeer the stage to prevent Bernie’s message from being heard. This is not the first time they did it? Why? What is it about Bernie Sanders that threatens the leadership of BLM more than the other Democratic and Republican candidates? The answer is actually frightening.
The leaders of BLM like the status quo, unless the single focus of future equality is centered on black women; and even more so black, lesbian, women. They like racial tension over a quest for universal growth for all persons struggling, because it gives them power and a voice. This obviously is not what the vast majority of those supporting BLM believe, but it is what the leadership believes. It’s for this reason that the leadership is not standing up against members who claim to speak on their behalf and who prevent Bernie Sanders from speaking at rallies.
This article, with no listed author, is going to cause a shitstorm.
Nathan Tyree
That’s bull. Idiocy. I’m a Sanders supporter. I disagree with the (shortsighted, IMHO) tactic of silencing a speaker that BLM should see as an ally. That being said, the linked article is hogwash. Stupid, divisive garbage!
Cacti
Until somebody steps forward to claim it, I suspect Republican mole is the author.
ETA: The reason for the above belief is the gratuitous inclusion of homosexuals.
Randy P
Here’s the WaPo coverage.
What actions? What do they think Sanders should be personally accountable for? Why is Sanders the focus for this anger? No idea. Anybody know?
rikyrah
BUT…
I thought all he needed was a job…..
isn’t that right, Bernie?
………………………….
Racist Lowe’s Customer Refuses To Allow Black Delivery Driver Into Her Home
Aug 9, 2015
Marcus Bradley, a Black delivery driver for Lowe’s Home Improvement store in Danville, Virginia, was told that he couldn’t make a delivery to a woman’s home because she requested that the delivery person not be Black, Fox1o reports.
Bradley was already out on the delivery when he got the call from work telling him to turn around.
“I asked him why I couldn’t do it and he said because you’re Black and they don’t want you at the house,” Bradley said.
When Bradley returned to the store, he was replaced with a White driver.
Bradley said that he was shocked and disappointment by the incident, but that he doesn’t plan on quitting his job.
“I mean, I thought that Lowe’s would take up for me,” he said.
“I mean, I gotta work…I’m going to keep going to work like I’ve always done. But I would think Lowe’s would take it into consideration to think about what they’re doing next time.”
Fox10 reporters reached out to the woman who demanded a White driver and she doubles down on her racism.
Reporter: “I just want to know your side of the story, whether it’s true or not?”
Customer: “I got a right to have whatever I want and that’s it.”
Reporter: “Do you feel bad about the delivery driver?”
Customer: “No, I don’t feel bad about nothing.”
http://www.fox10tv.com/story/29738022/delivery-driver-allegedly-turned-away-because-hes-black
Crusty Dem
This is all fairly astounding. I completely get the BLM side of all this, I have no idea what’s going on with the Sanders side. How much of this is real? How much is Hillary’s people ratfucking?
Completely bizarre.
Cacti
@rikyrah:
And Sandra Bland was on her way to start a new job in Texas.
Randy P
@Randy P: Marissa Janae Johnson is apparently co-founder of the Seattle BLM chapter. But beyond that, I haven’t found a statement about what [Sanders-specific thing] exactly she’s angry about and what [Sanders-specific thing] she’s trying to accomplish.
Kylroy
Republicans have no monopoly on the crab bucket. But this theory is bullshit.
Nathan Tyree
@rikyrah: This is apropos of what, exactly?
Brachiator
Whoever wrote this is obviously off their meds.
Or maybe this is a debating point that will be brought up in the next Republican debate.
mtiffany
@rikyrah:
Excellent point. All racism experienced by black people in America is the sole responsibility of Bernie Sanders.
Bernie Sander is to black people what Hitler was to the Jews, apparently.
JPL
@rikyrah: Lowe’s should have said that it can’t be delivered.
beltane
It gets even more confusing: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/09/1410399/-One-of-yesterday-s-BLM-protestors-is-was-a-SARAH-PALIN-SUPPORTER-WTF
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
I really like how whoever wrote that wasn’t even willing to put a name to it. That should tell us something…
Napoleon
Fuck BLM
I am done listening to anything that they have to say.
People make fun of “punching hippies” but these are the hippies, the half ass know nothings on the left, and I hate them.
FUCK BLM
yodecat
Oh, gosh. I’ve seen this sort of folly before. It’s an attempt by people with a grievance (not an unjustified one) using any means to publicize it. They aren’t taking the long view and naively failing to understand that real social change takes a long time. These folk do not realize that it took decades to reach the goal of marriage equality. To marijuana legalization, and so on. Decades. It’s always been a long, difficult slog to enact progressive or anti-regressive agendas. Sadly, it seems as if that’s just the truth of it.
It’s like ending the Vietnam debacle. It took years of concerted effort to end a patently cruel and wasteful engagement in a foreign country where we sought goals that were obviously impossible. I know. I was there.
beltane
Maybe there is a simultaneous ratfucking of BLM and the Sanders campaign.
JPL
@rikyrah: At least they fired the manager but it should not have happened.
The proper response would have been f..k off.
I don’t shop at Lowe’s but you should have included that the manager was fired because that was definitely against corporate policy. As far as we know the driver is still working. just sayin
Cacti
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
This.
Unsigned opinion of an alleged Sanders supporter who appears to have a problem with women, homosexuals, and black people, and especially black homosexual women.
It’s possible of course, but I’m fairly skeptical given the lack of ownership by the original source.
rikyrah
@mtiffany:
of course not.
But, economic inequality DOES NOT CURE RACISM.
doesn’t even touch it.
last time Black folk had full employment was SLAVERY.
we have ALWAYS had higher unemployment.
the attacks on Black folk by law enforcement aren’t because these folks didn’t have jobs. it’s because they are BLACK.
and all the speeches about economic inequality will not resolve the issue. doesn’t even touch it.
sigaba
What is BLM’s actual demands? Do they have any kind of agenda or position white* paper?
* Pun stipulated.
Nathan Tyree
@mtiffany: Yeah, how Dare Bernie make that person be racist
Cacti
@sigaba:
You poor, picked on little violet.
Being subjected to the sight of loud negro women, insisting that their lives matter.
Short answer:
If Bernie Sanders can make time to speak to a right wing bible college, he can make time to speak to BLM.
He has chosen not to.
Irony Abounds
And somehow it’s Bernie Sanders who is responsible for that women in Virginia and that cop being absolute racist assholes. And since those jerks at Bernie’s event were black women, they can’t possibly have done anything wrong. Because there is racism in America they can do whatever they want and have to accorded full and total respect even if they are complete jerks and are actually being counterproductive and diminishing the power of the BLM movement.
chopper
@Cacti:
if I were a republican ratfucker I’d take one look at the wreck list at the GOS and all the white middle-class berniacs telling black folk to ‘shut up and vote for Bernie’ and think holy shit, we have a wedge’. so yeah this story stinks on ice.
mtiffany
I agree with the message and the goals, and I even understand the tactics — but their execution fucking blows: “Gee, let’s get everybody’s attention and then rather than engage them and win them over, let’s spit in their faces and tell them what awful fucking racists they are.” They should change their hashtag to #Winning.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
Yep. Lowe’s missed a big opportunity to do the right thing here.
Nathan Tyree
@rikyrah: That’s a straw man. No one, literally NO ONE, is saying that ending income inequality will remove all racism from the country. No one ever. The Sanders campaign does believe that fixing income inequality will improve the lives of poor people, including poor black people.
sigaba
@Cacti: So they just want a campaign event? Don’t they want him to commit to a policy or something?
I mean it’s not like Bernie Sanders’s appearance confers any kind of status, just demanding he speak to a group of BLMs doesn’t actually accomplish anything.
Cacti
The problem with Bernie Sanders:
He’s a pampered, thin-skinned US Senator, who’s been breathing the rarified air of Congress for a quarter century.
He’s a working class hero to upper middle class whites, and is leading a “political revolution” of the gated community dwellers.
But despite his tendency to tuck tail and run any time when he is confronted by a pair of black women, he will fight fearlessly against all of the powerful and moneyed interests in the country.
Right.
sharl
Ah, a “progressive” media outlet that lists anti-vaxxer Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. as a primary contributor. Well, that’s reassuring…NOT! On the positive side (IMO), Sam Seder is also a contributor, so at least there’s that.
In trying to figure out last night what the hell had happened in Seattle, I ran across a LOT of extremely outraged Sanders supporters. Their anger was understandable IMO, but given some of the things those Bernie-heads posted, as well as quotes reported from the event, Sanders may have reason to worry about some of them more than the BLM faction that busted in on him. His newly announced press/media person (apparently hired about a week ago, IIRC) will have her work cut out for her.
Not all national BLM leadership was happy with the Seattle action,* but I suspect (and hope) that any disagreements and dispute resolutions are worked out behind the scenes; divide-&-conquer is always a major problem for such movements, especially those that are minority-based.
*For you non-tweeters, this is what’s known as a subtweet, wherein the actual subject isn’t directly called out – and especially not with their account ID – but where the subject is clear to regular followers:
Deray himself, and a number of other BLM’s leading activists – maybe most of them(?) – kept their focus on the commemoration of the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, and other victims of questionable and known unjustifiable police killings of people of color.
chopper
@Irony Abounds:
that’s exactly it! you’ve nailed it. no need everyone, close the doors and go home.
gian
@Cacti:
To what end? Why would he expect a meeting or speaking to them to go well for him?
He’s a senator from a lily white state and doesn’t have to deal with a black vote in his state. He’s not going to win the nomination, and who precisely would he meet with?
sigaba
@Cacti: So you’re saying the demonstrations are done just to embarrass him, and the demand for a campaign appearance is just a pretext?
The Thin Black Duke
It’s depressing seeing how easy it is to manipulate some white “progressives” into getting angry at black people. It’s simpler than paying attention to the puppet masters behind the curtain, I suppose.
JPL
@SiubhanDuinne: They did fire the manager. The store did the wrong thing but when corporate found out, they corrected it. Of course, they could have faced a major lawsuit, but who knows.
btw, I never shop at Lowe’s. I just haven’t had great experiences, but I still think that if you are going to copy and paste, include the entire story.
Cacti
@sigaba:
I don’t know. Maybe he should ask them.
Rather than leaving in a huff any time they dare to interrupt his regal ass.
Frankensteinbeck
In the world’s tiniest toilet, maybe. Who cares what this writer thinks? The same discussion will continue about whether it’s justifiable for these particular activists to shove aside other political issues and pull stunts to demand attention for their specific, people-are-dying-important and systematically overlooked issue. There are a million arguments to make about that. I can’t imagine any, including this one, are just being thought up.
@rikyrah:
Yeah, Lowe’s needed to tell her that she gets the driver she gets. She can be racist all she wants, but they won’t enable her.
sigaba
@Cacti: How do you know he hasn’t? Is that what they want, a meeting?
chopper
@Cacti:
oddly enough, the revolutionary vanguard never actually gets its hands dirty.
different-church-lady
FIGURE TWO: And this pattern is always the same?
FIGURE ONE: With few variations. They pick the most dangerous enemy they can find . . . and it’s themselves. And all we need do is sit back . . . and watch.
FIGURE TWO: Then I take it this place . . . this Maple Street . . . is not unique.
FIGURE ONE (shaking his head ): By no means. Their world is full of Maple Streets. And we’ll go from one to the other and let them destroy themselves. One to the other . . . one to the other . . . one to the other—
Irony Abounds
@Cacti: I agree, instead of “tucking tail and running” he should have called those women out for being complete jerks, in which case you would have accused him of being a racist. I get it, nothing those women can do is wrong in your eyes. Fine and dandy. Just don’t expect everyone to accept your sanctimonious crap and agree with you.
chopper
@The Thin Black Duke:
depressing but not surprising.
Fair Economist
I’ve got issues with the tactics this group took but the article is a pretty obvious troll, pitching in conspiracy theories, sexism, and homophobia on top of the already controversial topic to guarantee that there will be a) a lot of discussion and b) as much as possible will be useless ranting and pie fights. Duh, of course it’s anonymous.
Do Not Feed the Troll
Cacti
@Irony Abounds:
I know, right.
Those boorish BLM activists, who show up and insist their lives matter, totes harshing the mellow of all the revolutionaries who came to “feel the Bern”.
JPL
How do the folks know that Bernie wasn’t going to address their concerns, if they didn’t give him a chance to speak?
Liberal With Attitude
However stupid and shortsighted BLM may be acting, if Bernie claims to be capable of handling the Presidency, then he should be able to handle this, and make some sort of peace with BLM.
Does he think the Republicans and their ratfuckers are going to play any nicer?
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
I agree firing the manager was the right thing to do after the fact, but it should never have even reached that point. The minute the customer demanded a white driver/delivery person, Lowe’s should have said “Fuck you very much” and cancelled the order.
beltane
All of this is way too weird. This whole election is way too weird so far. I trust no one.
Cacti
@Liberal With Attitude:
Or the Sovereign Citizens, or the Militia nutters?
mtiffany
@Nathan Tyree:
How dare you suggest that people should settle for incremental improvements when they could have COMPLETE AND TOTAL VICTORY OVER RACISM if only Sanders would do x. All he has to do is listen to the BLM protesters and do x and all racism will be solved! And just because the BLM protesters won’t tell anyone what x is, is irrelevant, because the fact that you don’t already know in your heart what x is, just proves that you’re a whitesplaining, patriarchal, racist asshole. Just like Bernie Sanders.
/snark
Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.)
@Cacti:
I have to chime in here about this. We all could–each one of us–make a fantasy candidate who would be flawless and awesome and do everything we want and never make mistakes or screw up. But to what end? We’d end up with 300,000,000-odd fantasy candidates and none of them would even be real people, much less stand any shot at winning anything. We take what we can get. We look over the field, think it over and choose somebody.
And we have to take the best one we can find as he or she is, not as we’d like ’em to be. I’m leaning toward Sanders not because he’s perfect, or because he’ll do every last thing I want him to do, or because I think he’s The Messiah. I’m leaning toward him because I think he seems to be the best one running this time around.
Again, I’ll trot out the numbers 100, 80 and 0. We all want somebody who’s going to give us 100% of what we want, but we can’t have that. So we can look for somebody who gives us 80% of what we want–or in bad years, 70% or 60% or even 50%–because that’s better than throwing a fit because we can’t get 100%. Throw a fit and pout and sit out or work for some third party candidate, and you’ll end up getting 0% of what you want.
This is life, and you have to take what you get sometimes. You get to choose a lot of the time, but you can only choose from what’s before you. The choice is never 100% or 0%, or almost never. Most of the time, choosing between 80% and 0% is about the best you can hope for. But, I’ll tell you, as choices go, 80 is a lot better than 0.
debbie
I have to say I think the methods used by BLM (or their imitators) are playing right into the hands of the RWNJs. I listen to Glenn Beck on most mornings (“Know thy enemy”), and he’s sputtering mad, ranting that all lives matter, all blue lives matter, etc. He’s spent plenty of time since Michael Brown making fun of anyone claiming racism, and now he’s got a whole new avenue to run clattering down.
Villago Delenda Est
Yup, shitstorm on the horizon. Interesting take, and I’m not sure at all if it’s valid, but the fact that it’s out there is going to cause some people to react and give it credence. These people really are attention whores.
debbie
@SiubhanDuinne:
That America went away a very long time ago, I’m afraid.
Irony Abounds
@Cacti: Yeah, show up at an event that is easily disrupted that is organized by someone who has put time into the civil rights movement and at worst simply has failed met whatever standards those two women think must be met. What exactly has Hillary done for civil rights, yet where are the protesters at her events? Oh right, that’s too hard, there is Secret Service protection that keep them from grandstanding at her events so let’s not do that. They don’t have to commandeer the microphone. Protests at a Hillary event would garner more publicity from the general population rather than just progressives as is happening now. All they have proven is that jerks come in all races, creeds, colors, sexual orientation and genders.
Villago Delenda Est
@beltane: You’re on to something.
srv
Rubbing hands together… cackling laughter… “Exactly as planned, Igor! Now we can proceed with phase 2!”
Cacti
@Irony Abounds:
23 year old Bernie sounds like he was a pretty stand up guy.
73 year old Bernie is soft as a roll of Charmin.
beltane
@efgoldman: If breathing “rarefied air” is a disqualification for the presidency, then I’m afraid there will be no one at all to vote for on our side at all. Donald Trump has never held elected office so I guess his lungs are sufficiently uncontaminated.
pete
@Cacti: @Cacti:
If Bernie Sanders can make time to speak to a right wing bible college, he can make time to speak to BLM.
Listen to. Not speak to.
Bernie’s first clueless response was, in effect: Economic issues are fundamental. Which is a defensible position but an absolutely infuriating one under the circs, given its barely-hidden subtexts such as “You don’t understand” not to mention “Because I was there campaigning for civil rights in the ’60s, I know how you feel” — which might be true of their grandparents but don’t mean shit now. And then he reaches out to the folks at Liberty U! How dumb can Bernie get?
Cacti
@efgoldman:
Well, his favorite media outlet is the Thom Hartmann show, broadcast from the studios of Kremlin State television.
beltane
@srv: Igor or Karl?
JPL
@SiubhanDuinne: That store could have problems all down the employee line if they cater to that. Hopefully, Lowe’s will look into that.
Heliopause
@rikyrah:
Race was invented in order to facilitate economic inequality. Those that run things will use whatever is handy — race, religion, ethnic identity, and nationalism being the primary examples from history — in order to facilitate their running off with all the money.
Solving one of these things will not solve all of them in and of itself, they’re all facets of the same die.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@SiubhanDuinne: You’re writing as if “Lowe’s” is an actual person, rather than a collection of individuals. “Lowe’s” can’t do a fucking thing, because it’s an inanimate, intangible object. The manager fucked up. The people at corporate, who are the closest really existent thing to “Lowe’s” fired him and made the policy clear as soon as they found out.
So, when you say “Lowe’s” should have behaved differently, which person or persons do you mean? (And, no, the corporation is not really a person.) If you mean the manager, everyone, including his superiors at corporate, agree with you. If you mean the people at corporate, what were they supposed to have done differently?
JPL
@Heliopause: This..
Jewish Steel
Ring Of Fire, huh? More like Ring Of Hair On Fire. That website is for imbeciles.
sharl
A flurry of tweets from Deray McKesson within the past 30 minutes:
I haven’t looked at any of the stuff Deray linked, but he seems to be encouraged by what he’s heard from the three major Dem campaigns. I have a lot of respect for Deray, so I’m gonna take that as a positive development.
AliceBlue
“holding Bernie Sanders accountable for his actions”?!
Is the Onion doing performance art now?
Irony Abounds
@Cacti: I ask again, if Bernie is soft, how about those two women who disrupted his event, taking an easy way out. Why not go after Hillary? Why continually go after Bernie? Talk about Bernie being soft after they have the guts to go after Hillary and the Republicans who are the real enemy. Until then, keep your Charmin to yourself.
Cacti
@efgoldman:
If peaceful activists raising their voices unnerve him, how will he respond to the violent ones?
A fair question for anyone running for POTUS.
Imagine the endless grief that the current POTUS would get if he fled the stage every time he’s had a heckler or provocateur at an appearance? And his have included Congressmen and Supreme Court Justices.
centerfielddj
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
I think that the author is unnamed is only one of the reasons this imbalanced attack by a Sanders supporter will not resonate, counter Cole’s warning. The attack itself is strangely centered on Alicia Garza, who is hardly the center of the BLM movement, even if she does claim to have leadership within it. Never heard of her before today, and I’ve heard a number of people who have spoken on behalf of BLM.
Also, Ring of Fire is not near the center of liberal/progressive thought, even within the Sanders camp. Just because John liked some of the writing does not mean that John’s fecesorogical forecast will be correct.
TriassicSands
@Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
It is signed Ring of Fire Staff. That sounds like a group effort. The NY Times editorial page has opinions attributed to the “Editorial Board.” They do list the names (elsewhere) of who is on the board, but there is no individual author listed and no discussion about how individuals on the board feel about the editorial.
I’m not arguing right or wrong, just pointing out that this isn’t unique.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@The Thin Black Duke:
This. It’s stuff like this that makes me embarrassed to be white sometimes. But, then, Bernie leaves me cold, so maybe I would react the same way if they were doing this to a white candidate I cared about.
Cacti
@Irony Abounds:
Yeah, but Hillary isn’t a defense for how Bernie reacts. That’s entirely up to him.
Compare his reaction in the aftermath of Netroots to that of Martin O’Malley since the same event, and it’s pretty obvious that he’s still fumbling this issue. O’Malley picked up the ball and ran with it, but gets no media attention, so nobody mentions it.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Cacti: Activists from a group that you are trying not to offend are very different from activists from a group that you are perfectly happy to offend. How Sanders responded here tells us precisely squat about how he would respond to conservative activists.
debbie
@efgoldman:
Except that millions of people listening to him do take him seriously.
different-church-lady
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym:
That poor guy (or gal, as unlikely as it is) was doomed the moment the call from the racist came in. Unilaterally cancel the order and he runs the chance of getting reamed by corporate for refusing a customer. Doing what the customer requests and he gets reamed for placating a racist. And he has to make that decision on the spot.
In a perfect world he would have known how to bump it up someone who could have dealt with it on the corporate level and had a way to do it instantaneously.
I can’t imagine a way we can train every service employee in the country to deal with the crap the devious shitheads of America invent on a minute-by-minute basis.
different-church-lady
@TriassicSands:
And the Ring of Fire is who the fuck?
(That’s more aimed at Cole, who apparently thinks every internet teapot can create a tempest. And like this wasn’t already a shitstorm…)
Keith G
Maybe on blogs, which are contraptions known to amplify ant farts to typhoon size.
Will a working single mother of two (who spends 45 min each way on her work commute in Houston TX) be aware of this earth-shattering tiff?
No. I doubt it.
I am only half joking when I consider that maybe we do need to start bombing somebody (with more than drones), because it seems that there is just not enough to do for some folks who like to type out crap on keyboards – like the opinion bit that Cole links to.
Sanders never had a chance to be the nominee, there are no other challengers of note, and can anyone run a less interesting campaign than Hillary? So we are left with this squabble…and then whatever one takes its place to entertain us. Lord, just shoot me.
Meanwhile, near my neighborhood a conservative group is helping fund a legal fight to stop the construction of housing units meant to increase our area’s supply of affordable housing. This is a fight worth having and there is not much reporting/organizing on it that I can see.
Great job internet! Great job activists! Sometimes it seems that we deserve the muck we find ourselves wallowing in.
JPL
@different-church-lady: That one should have been easy though. We don’t discriminate. You are welcome to arrange for your own delivery. That’s why I think that particular store could have a problem.
Brandon
Not to add another dimension of Dem circular firing squad/ratf*cking but I’ve seen / heard / read many openly speculating about a potential connection between HRC campaign & BLM.
MomSense
@sharl:
I don’t know why Sanders has been so tough on this but if these disruptive actions are finally bringing him to the table, then hooray. I want him to be a candidate I can caucus for because I do like his economic policies.
Now, he also needs to get the douchebag supporters organized because some of them are being horrible.
I also think we have become very avers to conflict. Maybe it is my hippie upbringing but I really think these BLM actions have been pretty tame so far.
I remember the awful things the pastors of other churches in town said to my dad when his church hosted an ACTup protest. We fed and housed the demonstrators and I thought we were going to get run out of town.
Cacti
@JPL:
It should have been very easy.
Agreeing that a delivery driver will be of a certain race violates Federal labor law, and probably State labor law too.
The answer should have been, “Ma’am, we can guarantee delivery per Lowe’s policy, but no more than that under the law.”
different-church-lady
@Brandon: Well, that’d be quite a shift from 8 years ago, when Hillary was the racist in the race.
I mean, if she can pull that kind of shit off, Putin doesn’t stand a chance.
sharl
A few more things tweeted or retweeted by Deray:
(bolding is mine)
smintheus
@Randy P: I think you’re losing sight of the lede:
The first BLM disruption also featured someone who wanted everyone to know her name and identified herself to the media as the leader. Seems like these disruptions are partly or largely about posturing and self-promotion by some would-be leaders…those free agent activists who are determined to push their way to the front of any cause, to use the cause to get on the teevee box, usually aiming to get a paid gig opining about their cause.
Cacti
@efgoldman:
What false equivalence? The current POTUS has had all sorts of hecklers, great and small in terms of power and prestige. I’ve yet to see him abandon the stage over any of them.
Emma
You know, as a Hispanic — even one of a tribe mostly hated by True Progressives — I don’t have much of a dog in this fight but am watching with disbelief. Why can’t Sanders just get ahead of this? Is he really convinced that his days with MLK will/should be enough for AAs? Why doesn’t he outreach to some traditional Black colleges and have some events?
I also amazes me how quickly people who I’ve read here and thought of as real, honest to God liberals turned into lecturing scolds.
Cacti
@smintheus:
BLM is a decentralized movement by intent.
The side effect of that is that you’ll have all sorts of people who pick up the banner.
JPL
There was an article on section 8 housing vouchers in the NYTimes.
I had no idea that you had to ask a leaser whether or not they would accept section 8 housing vouchers. That is something I wish the candidates would talk about.
When looking for a place to live, you have to ask whether or not they accept section 8 housing assistance. To me that is discriminatory.
BruceJ
@Cacti: I agree, this has the distinct smell of carnal relations with Rattus norvegicus
sigaba
All I’m getting from this discourse is BLM just wants Bernie Sanders out of the race.
different-church-lady
@Cacti:
Oh great, here we go again…
300baud
There are an awful lot of white people calling for unity, for civility, for following process. White people were calling for unity 50 years ago, too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Call_for_Unity
smintheus
@Cacti: Maybe they could do the normal thing and ask him a question or make a request, and allow him to respond, for once, rather than just shouting him down and ritualistically trying to humiliate him?
Betty Cracker
@sharl: I hope these positive developments don’t go down the memory hole, but I’m not optimistic.
sigaba
@Cacti:
Hrm. In other words, Black Lives Matter doesn’t actually mean anything and has no actual goals, it’s viral marketing masquerading as a movement. Why on Earth would any politician want to speak to someone from Black Lives Matter, when all it is is a hashtag? Or a shibboleth?
Belafon
It seems that the group from Seattle exists to disrupt the relationship between BLM and Democrats: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/09/1410408/-Seattle-s-Outside-Agitators-206-why-they-want-to-drive-a-wedge-between-BLM-and-Democrats. The facebook page was created two days before Sanders event. It includes the following:
If they’re serious, I’m not sure what they think they’ll actually accomplish by disrupting this relationship.
This is what BLM was trying to get, at least at first.
smintheus
@Cacti: It’s a leftist movement. The inevitable result is that you will have self-promoters latching onto it and rushing to make themselves the center of attention. Intra-movement bickering typically follows, often with lasting rancor and an implosion of the movement.
Mapaghimagsik
@debbie:
Are you crazy? The repeat business on the wood for burning crosses is enormous!
Cacti
@sigaba:
Yep, that’s exactly it.
They formed in July 2013 just for the purpose of giving Bernie Sanders a sad in 2015.
Could you Standers be a little more self-absorbed? Probably not.
Just keep “feeling the Bern” and ignore those discordant voices saying that their lives matter.
Woodrowfan
@sigaba: well, they will get magic unicorns. or a drum circle…
Carolinus
Poe’s law and all, but I honestly can’t tell whether or not this is meant to be read as sarcasm?
Cacti
@smintheus:
Sanders is a leftist candidate.
El Caganer
Sanders has become a distraction, not an alternative. He should drop out.
different-church-lady
@Cacti:
See, now that’s another thing about Hillary — she’s really prescient!
Brandon
@different-church-lady: basically it would be about learning the lessons of 8 years ago when Obama built a strong coalition during the summer that challenged her from the left. Instead the theory is that her campaign is coordinating a preemptively knee capping of more progressive candidates before they get the chance to build momentum.
From my perspective it’s rather suspicious that they are not targeting HRC at all. It’s also odd that their criticism of Sanders is so off base. But it could also be that these are opportunists and the Sanders campaign by having more events with a more open attitude are an easier opportunity to promote themselves.
Keith G
@Emma:
I think that it is not an easy ability for his cognitive wiring. I have been sour on Sanders because I have seen and heard him on many “free flowing” interviews where it seems to me that “grandpa-itus” is kicking in.
He has his focus, he has his views, but he is not an open field thinker. He is not dumb. He is not motivated by prejudices. He is a bit of an ol’ Yankee character who has ventured too far out onto the ice…out to a place where he is not experienced or comfortable.
Anyway that was my read months ago and it seems to me to still hold.
Zinsky
Sorry, but some lives don’t matter. Especially fat, redneck racist Southerners. Their lives really don’t matter and we would be much better off without them.
Belafon
@El Caganer: Nah. Some of Sanders supporters have become a distraction. They should drop out.
JPL
@Brandon: I’m not sure that she is having as many large events and in either case, secret service would tackle them.
sharl
@MomSense: Yeah, I keep thinking about Newhart, the fictional sitcom where Bob Newhart ran an inn in Vermont. I keep thinking, OMG, Bernie stepped out from a Newhart filming studio set – where (IIRC) rarely was seen a person-of-color – and stepped into a crowd of angry and frustrated Black folk afraid and weary about being gunned down by a roid-ragey policeman for the crime of Too Much Melanin. No wonder the poor old guy is startled and confused!
He appears to be learning, fortunately, and while I’m kinda ‘meh’ on him at the moment (that could change), I do like much of his message, and like others hope he keeps the Dem field from drifting (more) deeply into Wall $treet territory.
Ow wow, you should do a guest post on this here. People need to be reminded that stuff like this actually happened!
sigaba
@Cacti:
So why did they form? Was there any particular goals at the time? And how has it changed?
Again, like, you’re not actually disproving the thesis that BLM has no agenda.
Woodrowfan
typical uber-lefty purity troll stupidity. Ignore the open racists on the republican side while attacking an ally because he doesn’t pay enough attention to you issue. Not to mention the nice totalitarian touch of not letting him speak… How about going to his rallies and asking him, at every event, what he would do to help with their issue? Ask him what he will do in Congress, NOW, to help. That’s how you get him to do something. But hey, not letting him speak gets your name in the paper as a “leader” and that’s what’s really important.
Mandalay
@Liberal With Attitude:
This is a completely bogus argument. There are some situations in life where there is no “good” or “correct” response, and this was one of them.
Was he supposed to bow to their demands? If he had then folks would surely be posting “If Sanders can’t even stand up to…”. Or was he supposed to be “tough”, and criticize their actions? If he had then folks would surely be posting “Sanders is no friend to black people…”.
No matter what Sanders did he would have received a ton of criticism.
El Caganer
@Belafon: @Belafon: No doubt they should, but he ain’t going anywhere. If all the so-called lefty candidate of the Democrats is described to the media as being an academic socialist who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about black people’s lives, he’s not doing anybody any favors. Doesn’t matter what’s true. He needs to drop out.
lol
ITT: Bernie supporters in a “super liberal progressive city” that’s currently under a fucking consent decree from the Department of Justice because the police department is so fucking racist are outraged that a couple of black people stormed the stage to point that shit out.
Brachiator
@Cacti:
Well, the president has armed Secret Service agents with him, which I sometimes would like to see deal with a dumb ass congressman.
I suppose that Sanders needs to be more proactive in dealing with this, and not just because of any impact on his campaign. If this continues like it has been, it is only going to detract from the good and important work that the BLM movement is trying to accomplish.
sparrow
@sigaba:
I’m getting the sense that some of these leaders do, anyway. But obviously there are thousands of BLM supporters out there (I am one for instance) who are not lined up with these protesters (I mean it’s a handful of people that are doing this, it’s not like they go around asking for permission first, nor should they really).
I like Sanders, but I’m not going to defend him here. He needs to be a politician and figure out how to respond better. He’s making moves in the right direction but there needs to be more (and regardless of posturing I actually think he would be the best candidate for AA issues, but I am not AA so that opinion is not worth much).
I think what’s happening with this is two-fold: it’s helping Hillary (whatevs), and it’s hurting BLM with some erstwhile supporters (which is a damned shame). I don’t have a clear sense of the degree of either of those, though — is it really a shitstorm?
Carolinus
@Carolinus:
Actually, I take it back. I had no idea what Ring of Fire was. It looked like some fringey blog — but after clicking around a bit more is it actually a well known media and radio network or something? If so I can see how that offensive/conspiratorial write-up clearly does deserve some outrage.
ruemara
Since Sam Seder himself said he disagreed with this, I’d say it’s someone’s opinion, but it’s certainly not an official opinion from the people behind Ring of Fire.
Look, most of the progressive blogosphere adored the Occupy movement. You know what they had? No leader. Anyone could squat in a park and call themselves Occupy [whatever]. This is the same thing that happened in Seattle. The sad part is that it unleashes a very paternalistic, damned near property owning level mindset in progressives towards blacks. And simply saying hey, you know what, your candidate isn’t a delicate fucking flower, he can handle a moron duo asking for some time, seems to be a bridge too far. You loved it when it was done by the right people, why is it such a shitstorm of awful now? Bernie’s not a saint, he’s a person that’s held office for decades. This is nothing. He actually can pivot, once he gets over his short fuse. Considering how many rallies the man is holding, to large audiences, you should be able to deal with 2 – FUCKING TWO – interruptions. The only person pushing Bernie offstage is Bernie himself. He’s a grown ass man. He better learn and considering he’s made some adjustments after each incident, he can.
Frankly, the whole “EXPLAIN YOURSELF BLACK PEOPLE” attitude? Turned me so far off Bernie Sanders that I’m shocked. I can’t make common cause with people who can allow for all sorts of bullshit under the clause of holding so and so’s feet to the fire, but the saint they think Bernie Sanders is can’t be held to modicum of the bullshit another Democrat they’d feel should rightfully be subjected to. If you can understand Dreamers calling Obama Deporter in Chief and entering the White House to heckle him during a celebration, you can put on some big boy bloomers, grab your nuts and let Bernie Sanders just deal with it. Speaking Ex Cathedra for the diaspora in toto, we don’t owe you fuck. We’re just a wee bit tired of having to wait for people to deal with the level of death we’re dealing with. If it puts you on the fainting couch at our rudeness and disorganization, well then fan yourself, because it isn’t going to stop. I’d like to see more sensible stuff being done, but I for damned sure am not going to step on young black activists who are at least doing something.
different-church-lady
@Liberal With Attitude:
As president, Bernie would have NUKES.
Joel
Wait, you’re citing an ambulance chaser blog?
Jimgod
@sparrow: Problem is, if they take the stage, absolutely refuse to let him or anyone else speak, and then go on about holding him accountable for his actions (WTF), what dialogue is there to be had? What actions, what crimes did he commit that he must be held accountable for? How do you respond to that? I would personally tell them to fuck off at that last point because it’s clear it was just a performance art show trial.
Joel
Here’s a more nuanced take, for what it’s worth.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
There are a lot of people on both sides who are really thrilled to misrepresent what those on the other side, or even those just questioning particulars without choosing sides, have said. There are a number of them in this thread. When BLM and Sanders supporters are reduced to hurling insults at each other and regurgitating what others say in the most inflammatory way possible, they’ve completely lost the thread.
Cacti is the most egregious example, but he’s not the only one; the worst behaving sort of Sanders supporters don’t seem to hang around here. In this case, both sides do do it.
KS in MA
@beltane: That seems as likely as anything else. Gotta wonder about the sudden appearance of an army of trolls, too.
Jimgod
@El Caganer: Here’s an idea. Don’t vote for him in the primary/caucus near you. Problem solved. Rodham Clinton is going to win the nomination anyway so it really isn’t that big a deal, is it?
Belafon
@sigaba:
I’ll recopy the deray tweet because I think it’s worth mentioning again:
I don’t think BLM wants Sanders out. They want the campaigns to talk about issues affecting blacks.
Doug R
@rikyrah: Lowe’s corporate stepped up and fired the manager
smintheus
@Mandalay: He wasn’t allowed to respond at all. The BLMers have screamed over him, demanded he shut up while they rant, they’ve been given the mic by the idiots running these events and then they refused to give it up to allow him to continue speaking, all the while not asking him any questions or making any demands he can respond to. He’s not supposed to respond; he’s supposed to stand there while they try to humiliate him. Absolutely bizarre that anyone would try to justify their actions, no matter who the object of their anger is.
gus
Lol, the circular firing squad. The comparative unity in the Democratic party of the last decade or so is now history. We’re going to get the Republican president we deserve, to go along with the Republican House and Senate. Won’t that be wonderful? I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if this was a ratfuck by the Clinton campaign, but that might be a bit too tinfoil hat.
Peale
@Belafon: Ah. I see. So they’d like to try the time tested method of staying away from the polls and then wondering why they are ignored.
Sly
@The Thin Black Duke:
But natural allies!
El Caganer
@Jimgod: It’s no big deal for me anyway – I’m not a Democrat. I just don’t see anything useful for BLM or Sanders coming from his continued candidacy.
centerfielddj
@Belafon:
What’s stone cold hilarious about this is that Bernie Sanders is not a member of the Democratic Party, and thus is not in close proximity to the Party’s institutional power structures.
That manifesto does not appear as a recipe for success of the Seattle chapter’s part of a nationwide movement. “Delray- BLM In Name Only”?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
No, not a bit.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@ruemara:
The problem with the way you and rikyrah drop in, lob grenades, and then depart is that a lot of us here on this blog didn’t think highly of the way Occupy organized itself (or, more accurately, didn’t), too. So, when we say that BLM is going about this wrong, we aren’t hypocritical, no matter how many times you accuse of it. We just don’t think complete disorganization is any way to run a protest movement, at least not if you want the protest movement to accomplish anything.
You really need to stop long enough to make some distinctions between the critics or all you’re going to do is alienate people.
different-church-lady
@El Caganer:
Well, neither is Bernie.
Peale
@gus: I don’t see Clinton gaining anything from a group in Seatle that wishes to suppress the African American vote by making the party she’s most likely going to lead next year seem detestable.
different-church-lady
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Wait, you’re not part of the hive mind either?
elftx
@rikyrah: the manager of that store was let go by Lowes
Mandalay
@Jimgod:
Exactly. We are getting pious sermons from posters saying “…if Sanders can’t even handle this…” as though it automatically disqualifies him from being president. But AFAIK nobody is saying what Sanders should have done instead.
And there is a good reason for that – there was no appropriate response that would have truly resolved the situation. Sanders just took the least bad option from his perspective.
El Caganer
@different-church-lady: True dat.
Groucho48
There had been talk pretty much ever since Sanders started to run that he seemed to be overlooking or outright ignoring the concerns of blacks. And, he didn’t address it. Then, when he started campaigning and he continued to overlook black concerns, the noise became louder. He continued to just do his own thing.
Being disruptive is a very dangerous tool to use. It can backfire very easily, especially if the group doing it is one of the groups the right and the MSM likes to dump on, anyway. But, if you are polite and are ignored and you are forceful and you are ignored, sometimes you have to push things.
Sanders is the guy who is supposed to keep Clinton honest. He also is the guy with solid civil rights credentials. After a time, you have to think his ignoring black issues and black forums is a deliberate choice.
On the other hand, the folks in Seattle seemed to be disruptive just to be disruptive. They didn’t seem to have any idea of what they wanted to accomplish or what they wanted from Sanders.
I don’t think either Sanders or the disruptors are evil or deserving of much of the scorn they are getting. Sanders needs to reach out. BLM needs to figure out what it wants Sanders to do and let him know, now that they have his attention. Demonizing either is just the kind of thing that the left does to snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory.
Joel
@different-church-lady: As long as they don’t go for the fucking hand gestures.
Emma
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Hold it. Ruemara contributes in non-race related posts. So, let’s keep the riot polite.
So, when we say that BLM is going about this wrong, we aren’t hypocritical, no matter how many times you accuse of it. We just don’t think complete disorganization is any way to run a protest movement, at least not if you want the protest movement to accomplish anything.
So, are you willing to understand why it’s happening at all?
gus
@different-church-lady: Two thumbs up for the Twilight Zone reference. Right on the nose about human nature as usual, that Rod Serling.
Belafon
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: it’s barely a way to run a national party.
kc
1. That’s a stupid article on that website I’ve never heard of.
2. Can someone please tell why Bernie Samders is taking more hear than Hillary Clinton, Martin O’Malley, any Republican, or the man who’s been President for 6 goddamn years?
different-church-lady
@Belafon: No more calls, please, we have a thread winner.
Brandon
@JPL: That’s sort of what I was alluding to. Throwing out the whole HRC coordination conspiracy theory, it is basic opportunity that Sanders is getting targeted instead of HRC. Which then makes them opportunists.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Emma: @Tissue Thin Pseudonym: Yeah, the notion that rikyrah and ruemara “lob grenades and depart” is… not supported by the evidence.
And I say that as someone who thinks Charlie Pierce vastly overstated the usefulness of Occupy when he said, “at least they’re yelling at the right buildings”
Emma
@kc: All three have reached out, as someone mentioned above. Sanders isn’t inclined to.
Liberal With Attitude
@Mandalay: Oh please.
BLM isn’t some deep Soviet agit-prop organization.
It can’t possibly be that hard to find black activists who share BLM’s concerns, negotiate with them, give them some time on stage, shake hands, chum it up, neutralize and marginalize those you can’t negotiate with…y’know,, do politics for crying out loud.
Guaran-damn-teed Obama learned this right straight in Chicago, Bill and HIllary learned it in Arkansas, anyone who has worked in politics above a PTA meeting has learned how to make coalitions of fractious groups.
El Caganer
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Occupy was yelling at the wrong buildings? I did not know this.
kc
Also: If you thought Jennicet Gutierrez was out of line, but you’re cool with protesters shoving Bernie Sanders and shutting his events down, eff you.
kc
@Emma:
That is false.
different-church-lady
@El Caganer: Say what you want about buildings, they really know how to just stand there and listen.
gian
@Cacti:
So the answer to “who should Bernie meet with?”. Is “all of them”
What if the demands in Seattle are different than Phoenix? Given Seattle’s minimum wage law wages probably are less of an issue than in other cities.
Other than not having public appearances and going hat in hand to every self proclaimed leader, what exactly is he supposed to do?
Again he’s not winning the primary, he’s running to make Hillary more honest on economic equality. He’s Dean in 04 or Bill Bradley in 2000. Beloved by the college educated whites in the party but not really hooked into the Establishment money and network.
Redshift
@Belafon: If that’s what they want, and all three campaigns have reached out (and, as JC pointed out, the Sanders campaign is the only one that now has a substantive, policy-oriented section in their website about racial justice), then what’s the point of continuing to protest campaign events? If you make demands, and your target does what you demand, and you continue to say they’re a horrible person and treat then like dirt, then why would anyone else respond to your demands?
Emma
@kc: Really? Prove it. I’m simply reporting what someone mentioned above. With links, I believe.
cokane
it is indeed crazy how the narrative have been constructed around Sanders that he doesn’t care about black people. He’s the candidate whose policies would most likely disproportionately benefit black people and other minorities who dominate the lower incomes of US life, but he’s the main target.
I’m beginning to suspect that for some activists, actual hard-fought changes aren’t the goal so much as personal fame and moral posturing.
kc
@The Thin Black Duke:
Who are the puppet masters behind the curtain here? I would really like to know.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Emma: Sure. As I’ve said before, my views on BLM and what’s going on is complicated, and I’m not unsympathetic. That said, as time goes on, I will become increasingly less sympathetic if these continue to be the tactics that BLM uses. And one of the problems they are going to face is that BLM is, essentially, anyone who wants to call themselves BLM.
Part of why I think this is complicated is that I think the modern protest movement is largely built on a misunderstanding of what actually happened in the 1960s and 70s, one that means that they are overly optimistic about the chances of disruptive action doing much good. It can happen, though, and I also understand the impulse to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING, in a crisis, so I’m not surprised that this is happening.
But if anything is going to be accomplished, someone has to start harnessing the chaos and start channeling it to somewhere useful. Occupy didn’t really manage this, though there are a few offshoots that still have some promise, like the drive for $15.
El Caganer
@different-church-lady: I’m willing to give most buildings the benefit of the doubt. I’m that kind of guy.
Omnes Omnibus
Lovely to see people who are ostensibly on the same side refuse to give the benefit of a doubt to one another.
Jimgod
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: THIS. I hate to say it and we hate to hear it, but the Teabagger Assholes Inc. showed us the way. You want change? You want police to stop killing? Vote. In Democratic primaries and every local election there is. Protests and performance art mean nothing if you don’t organize and get out the vote. That’s all there is to it.
Belafon
@Redshift: If you scroll further up, you’ll see an earlier comment where I quote from the Seattle group. They seem to be inclined to disrupt the interaction between BLM and Democrats. So this group isn’t necessarily pursuing the same goals as other BLM groups.
Or I could include a link: https://balloon-juice.com/2015/08/09/youre-about-to-hear-about-this/#comment-5435538
Liberal With Attitude
@Cacti:
In other words, exactly like the 49 Senators that Bernie has spent decades learning how to deal with.
He dealt with Joe Lieberman and Ben Nelson and is flummoxed by a couple of amateurs?
Kylroy
@ruemara: So at what number of out-of-the-blue interruptions of Sanders’ events (and *only Sanders’ events) are we allowed to take issue?
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus: I, for one, have complete faith that all sides will do the wrong thing.
jl
Well, let us see how Black Lives Matter member and new Sanders spokesperson Symone D Sanders does. She seems like a serious person, been involved in juvenile justice reform work for years.
Found another interview with her.
Juvenile Justice Infomational Exchange: Interview with Symone Sanders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K6toMLyy84
smintheus
@Groucho48:
They wanted the media to know their names and accept their description of themselves as the leaders of BLM Seattle. Disrupting the rally was a means to that end. They didn’t want anything particularly from Sanders or they would have asked him. He was just a politician they could harass in front of cameras.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
In these threads, I think it is. There’s no evidence that they actually try to understand what people are saying. Granted, they’re not as bad as Axel Foley, who shows only so he can repeat the falsehood that Sanders claimed that racism is over, but all I see is condemnations of a universal hypocrisy that doesn’t exist.
gus
@Peale: I’m not sure how I understand what this has to do with the party. If they start disrupting Clinton events (unlikely, since they’re so locked down and scripted) or O’Malley events (maybe unlikely because he has reached out to them), then I’ll believe it has something to do with party. Sanders seems to be the target. Clinton has nothing to lose and plenty to gain from their focus on Sanders.
different-church-lady
@Liberal With Attitude: Pssst: 99 senators…
Emma
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym: I agree with you on a lot of that. Especially about harnessing chaos. But it’s not that easy. Basically, democrats and their allies are greased pigs on ice, all careening in different directions. People who can harness that sort of energy are incredibly rare.
My problem is how quickly it becomes “he will make it all better for you but you’re too stupid/ignorant/crazed to understand it.” I don’t tolerate that paternalistic crap well. Let me say I’m not talking about you; you’re able to say your piece without being insulting.
Liberal With Attitude
@different-church-lady: Hey, I’m not a scientist. I will wait till all the evidence is in.
Belafon
@gus: They’ve disrupted two Sanders events, one of which was NN which also had O’Malley. They disrupted a Clinton event earlier this year, and yes, she said “All Lives Matter.”
One true Sanders event does not make a pattern.
cokane
@Jimgod: yup, look no further than the city government of Ferguson, Missouri.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
It would be interesting to see the results of a comparison of who was criticizing Occupy Wall Street’s tactics with those who are criticizing BLM’s tactics. Not interesting enough to compel me to try searching for those old threads and doing the work, but at least mildly interesting. How much hypocrisy is really present here?
jl
Also interesting that, regardless of the merits of the Black Lives Matter protesters, it is interesting that I saw corporate hack media pundit crap wondering whether Sanders is being racially divisive, because why… well, some racially charged protests occurred at his rallies.
Funny how quickly that crap got transferred from Obama to Sanders. I suppose when Clinton starts holding large rallies, if she addresses racial, ethnic or gender equality issues she the same media bozos will just be asking, hey, just asking whether she is divisive.
Any, there is bad, worse and worser, important to keep them apart.
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: I was gone for the weekend and I came back to this shit show. Just checking: is everyone drunk and on PCP? If not, this discussion can happen on a more civil level. Bernie does not deny that racism is pernicious. I doubt that BLM people oppose Bernie’s economic proposals. They differ quite legitimately on priorities.
different-church-lady
@Omnes Omnibus:
I suspect a much more powerful intoxicant: Twitter.
EZSmirkzz
I read with interest Charles Blow’s column in the New York Times, today, in which he linked an article in Mother Jones,
Follow the money.
When I was a mere yonker in college I was surprised to learn that black people could not be racist because they didn’t have the power to enforce their prejudices, which white people in power could and did do. In that respect most people in America may be prejudiced, and probably are if we are honest with ourselves, but are powerless to enforce their prejudices, and so by definition cannot be racist or sexist or any other form of oppressor, lacking the power to do so.
In that case, then, it is entirely logical to point out that white liberal political leaders unwilling to put into place economic policies and reforms required to pay for the services that the majority of the American people want by raising taxes instead of extracting fees added onto the burden of the poor and as pointed out out, using the police and municipal courts as adjunct to the taxing system, are in fact part of the problem. That this policy is actually the preferred revenue raising method of the Republican political leadership, and not only encouraged by the media elites in New York, whether they be the FOX or big three networks in the name of smaller government,an abstraction that sounds great and means nothing whatsoever, in fact makes them active participants in imposing racist economic policies on the poor and minority communities without having to get their hands dirty. Surely even Grover Norquist is not so obtuse as to intellectually ignore the outcomes of his policy sharia law of no new taxes on the fundamental existence of the poor.
We should not be surprised at the opinions of our fellow men in such a large country as America, for it is impossible for white liberals in the suburbs to truly understand the context of black lives, especially among those poor whom have never left their neighborhoods other than to join the military or serve their time, as pointed out in the articles mentioned, of compounded crimes due to minor infractions of laws.
Nor should we be surprised by the lack of contextual understanding in these minority communities for the proper and dignified way of addressing these injustices, in a culturally acceptable way to white middle class values, and so they respond in stereotypical fashion. or with stereo typical behavior, which grates on the white middle class.
What is needed then, in my opinion, is conversation on resolving the issue. There is a solution, one which activists of all stripes can help construct, based on respect for one anthers differences of opinions and contexts, and more importantly, respect for one’s own self.
At this juncture I usually remind Christians that if they behaved as Christians then this would all be a moot point. I have also concluded that if Christians won’t listen to the Christ they won’t listen to me either, so I digress in doing so.
But let us not pretend we know what motivates other peoples speech and actions, when we in many cases do not even understand what motivates our own speech and actions.
Showing my age, as a programmer, define the problem, define the solution and then do the step wise refinement required to get from here, the problem, to there, the solution. But please don’t get your knickers in a knot over trolls, whether they are online or on stage. This isn’t about individuals, it is about us, and the society we wish to live in.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Emma:
I don’t see a lot of this on Balloon Juice. Other places, sure, and so I can see why even the most strident in these threads (except Axel) want to tear into some of the people on the other side. I just think we’ve reached the point of fratricide where a lot of people aren’t paying attention to what their targets are actually saying. They prefer to napalm even the slightest amount of skepticism, and it’s not healthy. It’s not healthy for this blog; it’s not healthy for the Democratic Party; and I don’t even think it’s healthy for BLM.
Boy, that’s something that doesn’t get said around here every day.
Liberal With Attitude
I was headed up a MoveOn chapter and helped organize an Occupy, and served on my local county Dem Central Committee, and none of this is surprising to me in the least.
Most, not some, activists has self centered motivations, petty feuds, personal aggrandizement, and pet causes, and will disrupt any meeting towards those ends.
BLM just isn’t much different than the folks who show up to a house party with photocopies of papers and start talking over the agenda.
Not even saying they are wrong- just that its pointless to whine about how they are not playing by the rules or that they should be attacking the GOP.
We, the progressive wing, and Bernie in particular can find a way to work with these people, or are least co-opt the ones we can and marginalize the ones we can’t.
The civil rights movements, feminist movement, SSM movement, all had these same sorts of problems building their coalitions.
Omnes Omnibus
@different-church-lady: I am on twitter and I am not seeing too much insanity.
Mandalay
@Liberal With Attitude: I think we are talking past each other. I was specifically referring to what happened on the stage in Seattle. Once a member of BLM said to the crowd who had come to see Sanders “join us now in holding Bernie Sanders accountable for his actions” there were no good options for Sanders to take.
I personally think more highly of Sanders now for the way he handled the situation, but I am probably in the minority, and for those on BJ who want to attack him at every opportunity this incident clearly gave them ammunition.
And as you suggest, he really does need to get his shit together behind the scenes with BLM regardless. He has now had two disruptions from BLM, and if he continues to get them he will just be perceived as incompetent, which will be deadly for his campaign.
Yoda Dog
@Omnes Omnibus: Ya, John called for a shitstorm and from what I’m reading here that has turned into quite the self-fulfilling prophecy.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yoda Dog: Are you suggesting this was tossed out to be a blog troll?
ShadeTail
I don’t trust Sanders. He calls himself a socialist, but he isn’t. Everything he advocates is perfectly mainstream capitalist thinking. So either he’s an idiot who has no idea what socialism is, or (far more likely) he’s just calling himself a socialist to shock people into paying attention to him.
I don’t trust this BLM “movement”. They have no organization or membership rules, so anyone could claim to represent them. There’s no reason to trust their motives or believe what they claim they’re doing.
A pox on both their houses.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
I’m not usually a big fan of David Atkins, one of the weekend posters at Washington Monthly, but I thought this piece got this about right. It touches on some of the things that I mean when I say that there is a big misunderstanding of what happened in the 1960s and 70s. One of those things is that, to be powerful, acts of civil disobedience need to be directed at the causes of the injustice. Just deciding to have a protest at the Mall of America and calling it civil disobedience because you’ve been warned that it’s private property and you’ll be trespassing doesn’t count. Disrupting the speech of someone who just hands you the microphone doesn’t accomplish much.
Omnes Omnibus
@ShadeTail:
Please explain.
Please explain.
Yoda Dog
@Omnes Omnibus: lol no Im not suggesting that. John would have to be far more clever than I would have ever suspected for that to be the case.
Mandalay
@Liberal With Attitude:
So you are now suggesting that Bernie should “marginalize” those in BLM that he can’t work with?
What could possibly go wrong?
ShadeTail
@Omnes Omnibus:
I did. Re-read what I wrote.
Omnes Omnibus
@ShadeTail: No, you stated conclusions without explanations. I am asking for the explanations.
cokane
@ShadeTail: Well, the important thing is that you’ve found a way to feel superior to both.
https://xkcd.com/774/
sharl
@Omnes Omnibus: Whooo, boy, ya shoulda seen the Sanders twitter stream* last night. A raging, roiling, angry river it was, and every time I refreshed it, the tweet count on that browser tab was back into the 100s within minutes.
*(comprised of anything with ‘Sanders’ in the tweet)
________________________________________
Just posted at Buzzfeed within the past hour – Sanders Campaign Has An Official Shout-Down Chant For #BlackLivesMatters Protesters
jl
Sanders is not a socialist and he does not call himself a socialist. Media types and reactionary pundits, Fox News, and potential GOPer opponents like to call him a socialist and Sanders corrects them and point out that he believes in social democracy on the Scandinavian’Nordi model.
Social Democracy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
Sanders is a capitalist, at least a form of capitalist, and he admits it readily.
Omnes Omnibus
@sharl: Well, I was offline all weekend. It must have wound down by the time I reconnected.
Yoda Dog
@ShadeTail: You give zero explanation to your assertions. I re-re-read your post and I’m positive you’ve explained nothing.
Never thought I’d see so much shade thrown at the Berns here at BJ. yeesh… with friends like these etc etc etc..
Omnes Omnibus
@jl: Oh, shit. Something that ShadeTail missed. Just as an example.
jl
@sharl: As I said before, I am interested to see what kind of work Symone Sanders can do. She has been doing some pretty down and dirty, gritty, work in juvenile justice and criminal justice reform for years, working with cops and judges and juvenile delinquents. So she has quite a bit of real word experience in highly charged areas.
I found several interviews with her and she seems like a pretty serious person. One is posted above.
Redshift
@Emma: The tweets from Deray McKesson indicate that the Sanders, O’Malley, and Clinton campaigns have all reached out and have incorporated BLM concerns. That would seem to clearly indicate that a statement that the Sanders campaign “isn’t inclined to” reach out is incorrect.
Lavocat
Uh huh. There’s a reason why there is no by-line. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to put their name on this piece of shit.
jl
@Lavocat: The ‘about the authors’ section was very short and concise and to the point. You have to give the blog that much credit.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym
@Redshift: Protesters, of all stripes, often have a very difficult time declaring victory.
Omnes Omnibus
@Redshift: And these facts seem to be being ignored by a number of people. One wonders whether controversy is more important to them than achieving goals.
sharl
@jl: I saw your links to videos/YouTube of Symone Sanders last night and this evening. I hope to watch/listen to those as soon as I have access to hardware with functioning audio capabilities; early this week, I think/hope/believe.
jl
Another interview with Symone Sanders
40 for 40: Symone D. Sanders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Y4PlrLcoc
nellcote
@Belafon:
it wasn’t even a “true” Sanders event. It was a SS/Medicare program and he was one of many invited speakers. He had a “true” Sanders event later that night without incident.
Steve from Antioch
@Mandalay:
Get some real security guards.
The “protesters” aren’t interested in dialog, they just want to shut down Sanders appearances. Fuck them. There’s a way to deal with trespassers.
jl
@sharl: In the link above she talks about her brother who did over seven years hard time for a BS minor drug offense, and her fight to get federal re-authorization for funding for a juvenile justice reform program.
I’m going to support the Democratic nominee, unless some bizarre accident of history occurs and its Trump (then we are in trouble).
I think its way too early in the campaign to be hating or loving on this or that candidate. I think both HRC and Sanders are showing signs they will play a useful role in helping Democrats win in 2016, and that good signs outweight their missteps so far.
I do like the fact that Sanders picked a person who seem to have some real experience doing real down in the trenches work in criminal justice reform as his spokesperson.
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: One group (BLM) is trying to use any forum available to promote their issues. The other group is try to present a candidate. Conflict is inevitable.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve from Antioch: Bit of an authoritarian, are you?
ShadeTail
@Omnes Omnibus: Uh, no, I explained quite clearly. Again, re-read what I wrote.
Alternately, explain what you need explained.
wasabi gasp
By way of recent post at website in OP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZaBmWxysFM
Omnes Omnibus
@ShadeTail: Again, you made conclusory statements. You offered virtually nothing in evidence or argument in favor of your conclusions. I merely ask that you put up something. Note that subsequent commenters have pointed out that Sanders is a declared democratic socialist which is different than being a pure socialist. Does that affect your views in any way? That’s just the one side of my request. Please give the same consideration to BLM and stop making half-assed judgments. Thanks.
Nathan Tyree
I’m not going to link, but I keep reading blogs saying that the woman who took over the stage is a Palin supporter and part of some evangelical right wing movement. Is that true? Anyone know?
Halcyon
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/08/blm-activist-who-shut-down-sanders-is-radical-christian-sarah-palin-supporter/
Here’s what I’ve seen on that so far.
ShadeTail
@Omnes Omnibus: Wow, you’re a demanding little pissant, aren’t you? If you really need me to go over the definition of “socialist” or the reason why a disorganized mob should not be trusted, then you are a waste of my time.
And by the way, I will go on judging all I want, child, and I don’t give even one shit if that bothers you.
Omnes Omnibus
@ShadeTail: So you don’t have any analysis to support your conclusions. Okay. I just won’t take your comment seriously. It really should be no big deal for you. I apologize if my dismissal of your opinion bothers you.
BTW, you do seem to give even one shit whether it bothers me or you wouldn’t have mentioned it.
Nathan Tyree
@Halcyon: Thank you! That’s more and better information than I had seen so far.
eponymous coward
@beltane:
You realize you’re saying that on the blog of someone who used to be a right-wing Republican, right?
The BLM Seattle folks have been activists in the Seattle area for a while. So go ahead and adjust your tinfoil beanie a bit.
sharl
@Nathan Tyree: Halcyon at #233 offers a link which seems to summarize what I’ve seen in my online travels, including at Belafon’s GOS diary link (comment #106).
But somewhere else someone posted that this Black Lives Matter faction stated support for a Free Palestine. That definitely ain’t Palin, nor Hillary* for that matter (*to address the accusation that this was a ratfucking operation by someone who wants to see her win).
It may be a combination of youthful energy and not fully thought-out opinions that led the Seattle protestors to behave as they did – I dunno. But I usually don’t hold the political opinions of young adults against them very much (though Palin? A bit mind-blowing…). If they still believe wacky stuff as they approach thirty or so, then there may be cause for more concern.
Omnes Omnibus
@eponymous coward: Do you understand the words “used to be?” Come on, don’t use innuendo. Say what you want to say. I dare you.
gwangung
@ShadeTail:
And you seem to be very lazy, rhetorically.
Being rigrorous in your arguments is a plus on the liberal side.
Suzanne
I have to say that I think that taking a shit on some of the frequent commenters here who JUST SO HAPPEN to be African-American is pretty fucking awful. If you don’t agree with them, fine, but that doesn’t merit accusing them of hypocrisy or weak argument.
I am sick and tired of hearing white progressives complain about the BLM protestors tactics as ineffective. You know what would have been effective? Us listening and working to end police brutality years ago. If their tactics are ineffective, they’ll figure it out—hearing white progressives complain about being “turned off” to BLM is about the most disgusting, self-involved thing I’ve heard since, well, last Thursday night.
Plantsmantx
@Crusty Dem: Little if any of it is Hillary’s people ratfucking. This is the real reaction of many Sanders supporters, and it’s dam near indistinguishable from the Tea party right, all the way down to “What about black on black crime?” and “Soros!!”.
Thoughtful Today
Bernie’s (current;) record crowd at Portland, Oregon’s Moda Center, a.k.a. the Rose Garden according to local station KGW:
“Not only was the 19,980 capacity at Moda Center full, but thousands were forced to listen outside.”
http://www.kgw.com/story/news/politics/2015/08/09/least-18000-expected-bernie-sanders-rally/31392237/
Nathan Tyree
@sharl: I mostly agree with letting youthful stupidity pass. But, I see that she is part of some pretty outre Xtian stuff currently, which doesn’t jibe well in my mind.
Plantsmantx
@sharl: That’s hilarious, considering how few black people have attended Sanders’ rallies.
Thoughtful Today
…
Symone Sanders, Bernie Sanders new National Press Secretary, spoke passionately and specifically about Black Lives Matter issues in front of more than the nearly 20,000 inside Portland, Oregon’s Moda Center (a.k.a. ‘the Rose Garden’) before Bernie took stage.
The speech was also streamed via speakers to thousands outside that formed a massive human ring around the outside of the Center.
Thoughtful Today
Symone D. Sanders on Twitter: “Sen Sanders has been walking the walk and talking the talk. If you’re wondering where he stands on racial issues.. https://t.co/IaP4LyuesG ”
tweet: https://twitter.com/SymoneDSanders/status/630427838055735298
Symone D Sanders twitter account: https://twitter.com/SymoneDSanders
Plantsmantx
I’ve learned from Sanders more rabid supporters that the BLM movement are black nationalist revolutionary Sarah Palin supporters who want to start a race war, and are being paid by Hillary Clinton and George Soros.
jl
@Thoughtful Today:
If she is the kind of person who Sanders works with, a good sign that he will be effective.
Girls Inc of Omaha Community Campaign – One Gift, One Girl at a Time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iltGC-4Dh8k
jl
@Plantsmantx: Rabid supporters tend to be rabid, need to watch out for them.
No one is perfect. I read that his new spokesperson Symone Sanders was a Nader supporter (booooo).
Thoughtful Today
Bernie’s not Nader, he’s working with existing Democratic rules and will NOT run a third party spoil.
He’s asking for more debates, hopefully some of his supporters will start being heard within the Democratic establishment for more debates, but it’s clear, if you’ve ever watched him debate, why that frightens many establishment Dems.
Thoughtful Today
!
Symone D. Sanders is an extraordinary spokesperson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXbmwqCMRAY
Thoughtful Today
!
I need to give Symone more credit, she’s clearly speaking about issues she passionately believes in and she’s exceptionally clear and concise at expressing herself.
Bernie picked an amazing women to be his National Press Secretary and I’d love to see her on Meet the Press, Face the Nation, and This Week this next Sunday.
In the meantime, she’s already spoken directly to over 30,000 Bernie supporters on Black Lives Matter issues between Seattle and Portland’s massive rallies.
mike in dc
So, Sanders has responded to BLM constructively, but it looks like first impressions are the only thing that matter to some. He’s appointed an activist for criminal justice reform as his press secretary, and now has the beginning draft of a racial justice policy platform posted online. His people have spoken with BLM, several times, and he has addressed BLM topics in multiple speeches post-NN. So, at this point, what is expected of him? That he will shelve his economic reform speeches and be all BLM, all the time? I agree there appear to be Sanders supporters who are hyperzealous assholes. But if you’re going to go there, it’s pretty clear there have been some comments fired back that are equally counter-productive and ignorant.
Sanders is engaging on the topic. Phase 1 accomplished. Keep him honest, but move on to phase 2, whatever that is.
Jordan Rules
Why post this tho?
Another Holocene Human
@yodecat: WTF, don’t bring GLBT activists into it. We did far worse than BLM, or “Outside Agitators 206” which is their real affiliation, the other day. And most of us never believed we’d see marriage equality in our lifetimes. We did what we did because we were being slaughtered with impunity.
HUH IMAGINE THAT.
Another Holocene Human
@JPL:
Correct.
mike in dc
@Jordan Rules:
That, assuming you mean the troll post article in ring of fire, I have no idea. The white progressive establishment(what an odd way to phrase it, now that I think about it) does have issues around race, and that is something that obviously needs to be addressed. That said, addressing it respectfully and constructively is no easy task. Telling people who think of themselves as mostly righteous that they have dogshit on their shoes(too) is always going to be a difficult road. Telling them they’re “white supremacist liberals” makes it way more difficult.
Another Holocene Human
@sharl:
In total agreement, although I think the event organizers were partially to blame, and there were journalists IN THE CROWD who heard what the crowd said that afternoon, hence the less than approving media coverage, so it’s not just Bernie-heads online, it was Bernie-heads in person, which is why that suggestion upthread that the protesters “win the crowd over” is completely empty. Nothing to win over there.
It may have been trolling but lots of people took the bait if so.
Another Holocene Human
@The Thin Black Duke:
Apparently, all some of these people need is an excuse.
mike in dc
I didn’t really see the need to post such a long quote from Alicia Garza in the editorial. Not sure whether it really supports the argument of the anonymous author. She wasn’t arguing against coalition building, but against glossing over differences in background, outlook and goals.
I honestly see this as something that can be worked out over the course of the campaign. Not saying race issues in the white progressive community will go away, or that all BLM issues will be resolved, but that both parties will have a clearer understanding and a better rapport. Of course, I am known for my tendency to have too much faith in people…
Thoughtful Today
!
There have been 30,000, respectful, supportive listeners to the strong, clear message that Black Lives Matter at Bernie Sander rallies in Seattle and Portland combined over this last weekend.
Bernie and several preliminary speakers spoke eloquently about Black Lives Matter.
Symone Sanders has been the opening speaker at both rallies, she’s a phenomenal speaker.
I’d like to hear her speak on other issues as well, she has been an admirable addition to Bernie’s team.
There were other speakers as well, anyone have the lineup of speakers?
Next stop L.A..
It would be phenomenal if they beat the crowd they had in Portland.
different-church-lady
@jl:
On-line progressives are going to hate her, because she’s going to keep telling them they have to do more things than merely state opinions as though they were facts.
different-church-lady
@sharl:
Velcro-ball liberals — any issue sticks. Or in the case of the one with a history of supporting Palin, not even necessarily a liberal.
If they manage to do enough damage to BLM, there’s cause for concern right now.
brantl
@Cacti: You really are an idiot. They are taking advantage of Sanders’ good nature, that’s all.
brantl
@sharl: Robert F Kennedy Jr. is not an anti-vaxxer, he is anti-thimerosol, and so would you be, if you had a clear idea how much mercury is going into your system from myriad sources.
debbie
@Liberal With Attitude:
Also known as passion, which can be a very positive force.
chopper
@brantl:
lol, okay.
Cervantes
@Heliopause:
If I had a nickel for each person who does not understand that …
Cervantes
@Cacti:
And the side effect of that is … ?
Cervantes
@JPL:
Do you know why that rule obtains?
Cervantes
@Omnes Omnibus:
“Any forum available”? I hadn’t noticed!
different-church-lady
@debbie:
No. I reject that thoroughly. Passion can be combined with intelligence and tempered strategy. Passion is not inherently selfish.
Howlin Wolfe
@Cacti: sanctimonious indeed.
Applejinx
Wow, I go off to Bronycon for one weekend and the place goes totally insane.
Now I know for sure: it’s going to be Sanders vs. Trump. Trump will win the Republican nomination, and Sanders will win the Democratic nomination. And then I and a bunch of people are gonna have to work REALLY HARD and make a point of being reasonable and decent and having real conversations and then Sanders will win.
Trump won’t mind so much. Ya gotta take big gambles, and now he’s set for life. All the publicity in the world. It’s trivial for Sanders to spin a Trump loss and get Trump actually supporting the Sanders policies (economic). You gotta spend money to make money, and you can crank up the taxes and challenges and Trump will still win over them, because he’s not a coward and doesn’t need to be protected. Or some such bullshit. Anyway, Trump can go off and make more hotels or whatever, and sell them. He doesn’t need to win this in order to have a simply wonderful time and profit heavily from it. It’s like he’s running for ‘most rich, famous and awesome guy in the USA’ and a Sanders win merely means the country is run by a different job description.
Sanders has had to deal with intense disorganized leftwing activists all his life: remember, he’s from Vermont? When he’s in a ‘back off and say nothing’ situation he can do that. I see him working with those he can work with, and #blacklivesmatter is influencing his priorities, and rightly so. When he becomes President, he’ll remember that and he’ll come up with something that will do tangible good, and fewer black citizens will be murdered by police. Trump would likely make things conspicuously worse, but Trump isn’t going to win unless all the world becomes hysterical twitter hashtagvism. And who has the energy for that?
We’ve got a HELL of a lot of ratfuckers on BJ all of a sudden. I think that’s my best indicator that Bernie is going to take the nom. Until that was a threat we didn’t see the ratfuckers and now here they are and they’re really doing a very good job. Tip of the hat to ’em, our post-internet political ecology is an amazing thing, isn’t it?
It’s nice that filling stadiums with intense supporters who are willing to spend time and energy grassroots organizing and working WITH each other for positive goals (not just AGAINST enemy camps) still carries the day. Same as it did for Obama. There’s no difference (skin color is not a difference). Bernie can carry on the amazing work Barack has done, and we’ll hang in there and make America a better place to live and dial back as much of the badness as we can while we can.
And maybe we can even end up with a rightwinger Republican party, a center Dem party, and a real left party, after fixing some of the catastrophic distortions of the whole voting/campaign system. I know Bernie wants that because he’s pushing hard for it and has always stood to benefit from it.