I’ll Say This Once

If I disagree with your tactics, it does not mean:

1.) I think you are the enemy.
2.) I think your cause is not just.
3.) I disagree with your cause.
4.) I don’t agree with you that your cause needs to be addressed and am telling you to shut up.
5.) I think you are being hysterical or overwrought or don’t have a reason to be livid and scared and desperate for real action.
6.) I think you are an agent provocateur, a Hillary/Bernie/GOP/Pentaverate plant.
7.) I will no longer support you or your cause.
8.) I am personally mad at you or think you are evil or stupid or am talking down to you and being condescending (although if I am condescending to you, it’s because I am a condescending prick to everyone, so maybe just ignore that last part).
9.) I am intolerant and hate x, y, and z.
10.) I may not change my mind later and agree you were right to do what you did.

It just means that I disagree with your tactics. That is all. Carry on. A peace offering:

Doodlebug

Can we all agree that orphan kangaroos with stuffed bears are fucking adorable?






153 replies
  1. 1
    srv says:

    If I’d hated you more, just a little bit more, we would have had a lot less trouble.
    -Jim Jones

    Plus, it’s a white bear.

  2. 2
    craigie says:

    Whajya tryna say?

  3. 3
    Diana says:

    so true! reminds me of Chris Pratt’s pre-apology apology, which he issued after the Patricia Arquette kertuffle:

    “I want to make a heartfelt apology for whatever it is I end up accidentally saying during the forthcoming ‪#‎JurassicWorld‬ press tour. I hope you understand it was never my intention to offend anyone and I am truly sorry. I swear. I’m the nicest guy in the world. And I fully regret what I (accidentally will have) said in (the upcoming foreign and domestic) interview(s).

    “I am not in the business of making excuses. I am just dumb. Plain and simple. I try. I REALLY try! When I do (potentially) commit the offensive act for which I am now (pre) apologizing you must understand I (will likely have been) tired and exhausted when I (potentially) said that thing I (will have had) said that (will have had) crossed the line. Those rooms can get stuffy and the hardworking crews putting these junkets together need some entertainment! (Likely) that is who I was trying to crack up when I (will have had) made that tasteless and unprofessional comment. Trust me. I know you can’t say that anymore. In fact in my opinion it was never right to say the thing I definitely don’t want to but probably will have said. To those I (will have) offended please understand how truly sorry I already am. I am fully aware that the subject matter of my imminent forthcoming mistake, a blunder (possibly to be) dubbed “JurassicGate” is (most likely) in no way a laughing matter. To those I (will likely have had) offended rest assured I will do everything in my power to make sure this doesn’t happen (again).”

  4. 4
    ruemara says:

    Oh gee. Thanks. But, I’ve learned to enjoy watching people explain what activism is to black people and how to be successful at it. Can’t wait to be as ground changing as Occupy.

  5. 5
    Downpuppy says:

    There were a few years where I had a serious job, casual dress code, & could walk to work.
    One day in the 1990s I was on my way in & a chatty cop started talking to me about cute protestor chicks. I had no clue that something minor was going on ahead.
    Nice that cops could still chat idly about protests with strangers.
    Protesting gets tougher and tougher with the increasing cynicism of the middle class.
    More futile, and more needed.

    & “I’ll say this once”?

    At least you didn’t ONLY say this once.
    That coulda destroyed any shards of credibility.

  6. 6
    Jeffro says:

    11) That it’s not frustrating to be spending time on this while we could be piling on to the GOP Klown Kar

  7. 7

    If you don’t disagree with my tactics, does that mean you think I am the enemy?

  8. 8
    kindness says:

    I saw that kangaroo earlier. It was one of those sad at first (the orphan part) and the happy ending. Nice.

  9. 9
    RandomMonster says:

    Am I the only clueless person who has no idea what this rant is about?

    Sorry I’m not as clever as the kids.

  10. 10
    srv says:

    @Jeffro: Wait, you mean John isn’t talking about Trump?

  11. 11
    Doug R says:

    I don’t think Occupy was pointless. Obama got re-elected in 2012 and it’s affecting the 2016 platforms.

  12. 12
    angelfoot says:

    @Nathan Tyree: Not necessarily. One can support your overall, long term objectives but disagree with how you deploy your resources in short term, specific actions.

  13. 13
    redshirt says:

    So what’s this all about now?

  14. 14
    Jeffro says:

    @efgoldman: Pretty much! But talking about GOTV is a lot less sexy. I’ll say this for the GOP: one debate, Trump or no, and they’ve already got me fired up to knock on doors, get folks motivated, basically crawl on my knees through broken glass to help out whomever the Dem nominee is.

    I try and picture any of those 10 ‘adult table’ klowns in charge of the whole operation, not only undoing the past 6.5 years of Obama but making things even worse, and seriously, it upsets me worse than when W and President Cheney were in charge. At least in 2006 we had Nancy Smash!, and in 2008, we knew hope was on the way. Take a second folks and cycle through what Presidents Walker, Rubio, Jeb!, etc would do (and un-do) if they managed to weasel their way in. Holy cow.

  15. 15
    PJ says:

    @ruemara: As mightily flawed as this democracy is, if you want to change anything here, whether on a local, state, or federal level, you need at least 1/3 of the people on your side – an absolute majority is great, but you can pretty much rely on 1/3 of the people being against you (or 27%, if the wingnut figures apply), and 1/3 not caring enough to be bothered. When you are a minority, this means you need to have as many non-minorities on your side as possible. Disrupting events where people are otherwise inclined to support your cause may not make them support your cause less, but it probably won’t make them inclined to support it more, and some people will definitely be turned off by it, because it looks like the disruptors do not care about actually making positive change and are just driven by their egos. The leaders of the black civil rights movement in the mid-20th century chose their targets very carefully, and the targets they chose were those that would most highlight the viciousness of white supremacy. If the people targeting Bernie Sanders were serious, they would be protesting the modern equivalents of Bull Connor – the GOP, the prison/industrial complex, the police departments of every municipality. Bernie Sanders is, at this stage, an old ineffectual Senator from a tiny state; shutting him down accomplishes nothing.

  16. 16
    Davebo says:

    @efgoldman:

    And there’s no way Dubya get’s elected even if some idealists decide to cast a stupid protest vote for Nader.

    It’s possible I’m being melodramatic, but I can’t help but realize that the people I see taking the stage in Bernie’s events were probably at most 6 years old when that happened.

  17. 17
    RSR says:

    “I’ll Say This Once’

    Haha, so you’re quitting twitter?

  18. 18
    wuzzat says:

    First – that kangaroo is freakin’ adorable, and anyone who disagrees is welcome to meet me for fisticuffs at dawn.

    Second – Is it okay to say, “I agree with your cause, but take issue with your timing?” Because, yeah, Vermont is, Burlington not withstanding*, whiter than white, and Bernie’s political views are heavily influenced by that fact, but I’d like to keep the Republican shitshow at front and center for a little while longer, since they are the bigger threat to human decency.

    *And even Burlington is pretty fucking white.

  19. 19

    @redshirt:

    My understanding is that some people not affiliated with Black Lives Matter stormed the stage and disrupted a Bernie Sanders event, then refused to let the candidate finish addressing the crowd. Bernie and BLM Seattle seem to be cool with each other, and everything is everything now, I guess. Anyway, the point is that attacking your allies is maybe not helpful. That point seems to upset others, who I guess think that attacking your allies is maybe helpful?

  20. 20
    PJ says:

    @Doug R: Occupy was against Obama and the American governmental system in general.

  21. 21
    srv says:

    @Doug R: OWS was not pointless, but like BLM, utterly incapabable of translating rage into concrete political action or reform.

  22. 22
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Nathan Tyree: I think the entire point is “don’t tell me what to do.”

  23. 23
    ShadeTail says:

    @ruemara: So being black means they must necessarily understand better than anyone else how to be effective at activism?

  24. 24

    @Gin & Tonic: That makes sense, then.

  25. 25

    @ShadeTail:

    Activism in general, or activism about racial issues? Because the tactics that work for one kind of activism will not necessarily work well for other kinds.

  26. 26
    RaflW says:

    @Jeffro:

    11) That it’s not frustrating to be spending time on this while we could be piling on to the GOP Klown Kar

    We have been piling on. A lot.

    And it is fun!
    And I bet we keep doing it, also, too.

  27. 27
    Redshift says:

    @efgoldman:

    Previous post and the comments appended thereto.

    Actually, based on a quick glance at twitter, I think it’s much more about interactions JC is having there than about anything here.

  28. 28
    RandomMonster says:

    @efgoldman:

    Previous post and the comments appended thereto.

    Thanks, that clarifies everything.

  29. 29
    Mike J says:

    I see your kangaroo[1] and raise you opossums.

    [1] That’s like, one of my favorite songs.

  30. 30
    redshirt says:

    @Redshift: Yeah, it’s pretty meta.

  31. 31
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Doug R: Occupy didn’t have much if anything to do with reelecting Obama, but I agree about the effect on the 2016 platforms: I think they did have to do with Elizabeth Warren rising to prominence and getting into the Senate, and it was the beginning of a thread that is currently manifesting in the Bernie Sanders campaign. Sanders isn’t going to be President, but the fact that he’s there is affecting what Hillary Clinton is willing to say as well.

  32. 32
    rikyrah says:

    There’s a young man in Texas who was gunned down in less than 2 seconds for having a car accident.

    and, they’ve already trying to smear him.

    BLM is REAL.
    It’s urgent.
    We’re getting mowed down daily…maybe all Democratic Candidates need to speak up.

    PS- he’s taking his azz to LIBERTY UNIVERSITY..

    and, can’t stop to make a speech at an HBCU?

    uh huh

  33. 33
    Mike J says:

    @rikyrah: Dood. He’s from Vermont. He got both of the black votes there.

  34. 34
  35. 35
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @rikyrah: and, can’t stop to make a speech at an HBCU?

    Has one asked him to speak?

  36. 36
    Emma says:

    @rikyrah: Yeah. That Liberty University thing really floored me. I’ve been staying away from the whole Bernie Sanders thing because in many ways, both by observation and training, I think he has a huge point about economics being at the center of many issues, but… Liberty University? Really?

  37. 37
    Emma says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Someone running for President should learn to spell “proactive”.

  38. 38
    jl says:

    I can’t figure out what happened in Seattle. From what I see on the internet, Black Lives Matter Seattle seems split into factions, one denouncing Sanders, one apologizing.

  39. 39
    AxelFoley says:

    @Doug R:

    I don’t think Occupy was pointless. Obama got re-elected in 2012 and it’s affecting the 2016 platforms.

    Please don’t tell me you think Occupy had anything to do with Obama getting re-elected. Nor anything to do with 2016.

  40. 40
    Joel says:

    As far as I’m concerned, occupy killed Andrew Breitbart, so they accomplished something.

  41. 41
    David Koch says:

    Here is how a pro handles hecklers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOobKEF_mdc

  42. 42
    jl says:

    @Emma: Sanders says he was invited to speak

    Bernie Sanders To Speak At Liberty University
    This should be interesting!
    Andrew Hart, HuffPo

    “Liberty University was kind enough to invite me to address a convocation and I decided to accept,” Sanders said in a statement on Wednesday night. “It goes without saying that my views on many issues – women’s rights, gay rights, education and many other issues – are very different from the opinions of some in the Liberty University community.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....cbf1e3bd63

  43. 43

    @Joel: You win! Best thing said on the internet today.

  44. 44
    Stella B says:

    @ruemara: We (at least most of us although probably not srv) would like BLM to be considerably more effective than OWS.

  45. 45
    David Koch says:

    ya know Obama has been heckled through his presidency by various groups (gays, immigration, code pink, occupy, netroots, rednecks, etc.). He was heckled in 2007/2008 when he was running for office by black activists. (see for yourself).

    And I don’t ever recall one rank and file blogger complaining they way they do now over Sanders gettng the same business.

    What, was it okay then, but not now?

  46. 46
    Diana says:

    @rikyrah: here’s the thing. If you spot a problem, maybe the mere fact it is a problem doesn’t mean you necessarily have the right solution? Or the even right diagnosis?

    For example, take this newstory:

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/06/.....-shooting/

    we’ve been militarizing police departments for more than a dozen years now, ever since 9/11. Maybe statistics can isolate what’s really going on. See, e.g.:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....story.html

    I try to listen. But the only reason I try to listen is that I believe knowledge is power. If people are saying something that they believe is true, but the statistics don’t back it up, then I stop listening.

    And if they interrupt someone I’m actually trying to listen to (for the record I don’t support Bernie Sanders, because I think Hillary Clinton is more electable, so the BLM people are unlikely to interrupt me, but I listen anyway because, as I said, knowledge is power) then I’m going to get annoyed. Because I search out and choose whom I listen to, for the value of the knowledge they bring me.

    Hijacking an event to force me to listen isn’t ever going to work. You can persuade me to listen to you, if you show me why. But if you want to force me to listen to you, then you’re doing it wrong.

    And for all of you who say I don’t have to listen to that, I’m going to quote to you: “You may choose to look the other way but you can never say again that you did not know.”
    ― William Wilberforce

  47. 47
    hamletta says:

    I think speaking at Liberty University is smart. A significant percentage of young evangelicals take economic justice pretty seriously. Of course, among LU students that percentage is probably somewhat smaller, but still.

    And I watched the video. Those young ladies need to take all the seats.

  48. 48
    Joe Bauers says:

    Maybe if they tackle Sanders and punch him in the dick next time, racist cops will stop killing black people.

    Hasn’t been tried yet. Worth a shot?

  49. 49
    kc says:

    What did I miss?

  50. 50
    hamletta says:

    @David Koch: They’re not heckling, though. They’re running up to the podium, snatching the mic away, and shrieking until people relent.

  51. 51
    hamletta says:

    @Joe Bauers: Give ’em time.

  52. 52
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @efgoldman: also, I checked the dates and Warren declared her candidacy three days before Occupy starred in Manhattan, and I’m sure the decision was made some time before that, and my recollection is people were essentially trying to draft her to run for a long time before that. She first appeared on the Daily Show in 2009, and was a pretty regular guest on TRMS staring around that same time. And while I do think HRC has responded to the recently invigorated left (of which Warren has been a catalyst), I can’t think of any significant change in her stances/rhetoric since Sanders declared.
    ETA: as for Brown, I thought he took over hawking cinnamon pills from Huckabee?

  53. 53
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @efgoldman: At least he’s got his pickup truck.

  54. 54
    kc says:

    @kc:

    Oh. I see.

    Starting to wonder who’s paying some of these guys.

  55. 55
    rikyrah says:

    The 9 Things Black People Can’t Do
    From having pool parties to, literally, walking down the street, African Americans are often targeted as potential criminals.

    BY: DANIELLE C. BELTON

    When I was 21, a police officer at the scene of a fire cursed me out.

    It didn’t matter that I was there with a camera crew and working for a TV station in St. Louis. It didn’t matter that I was absolutely nowhere near the fire (I was standing across the street). He thought I, wearing a suit and carrying a reporter’s notepad, badge and pen, was some punk, teenage lookie loo.

    The cameraman spoke up for me, explaining that I had a right to be there. The officer just yelled more and became belligerent. Realizing that I had no interest in being arrested, I agreed to go back to the news van. The cameraman, who went on to film the fire, said to me, quite succinctly, “What an a–hole.” But I knew the real crime.

    I was “existing while black”!

    Existing while black shouldn’t be a crime, but it sort of is. The bust-up over a black teenage girl in a bikini being thrown to the ground by a police officer in McKinney, Texas, is reflective of this. The fact that some on social media pointed out that “at least” the “police didn’t shoot anyone” as a result of the police-officer-pulls-gun-on-kids-at-pool mishap is a testament to the sad state of “existing while black.”

    Below are nine things black people can’t do if they run into the wrong police officer, busybody stranger or racist sociopath on any given day.

    http://www.theroot.com/article....._t_do.html

  56. 56
    jl says:

    @Joe Bauers:

    Not clear to me whether this was an organized Black Lives Matter protest or two people from one faction of a fractured Black Lives Matter movement doing it on their own.

    But, people let you up on the stage and give you time, and you do not observe the agreement you made and get physical with the candidate, what happens is that you will not be allowed on the stage anymore, you will not get agreements for time from the organizers that you can go back on, and there will be more security and screening of events, and people will start getting yanked. I think that would happen with any candidate, Obama, HRC, Sanders.

    Black Lives Matter people I have seen talk in interviews seem respectful of all the Democratic candidates, they seem to know how far to push it in order to make a point and not alienate people. Who are these two people and how representative are they of Black Lives Matter as a national movement? Anyone know?

  57. 57

    @Diana:

    Um, did you actually read the WaPo article or just stop with the opening graf?

    About half the victims were white, half minority. But the demographics shifted sharply among the unarmed victims, two-thirds of whom were black or Hispanic. Overall, blacks were killed at three times the rate of whites or other minorities when adjusting by the population of the census tracts where the shootings occurred. (emphasis mine)

    If you really don’t think that the fact that unarmed black suspects are being killed at THREE TIMES THE RATE of anyone else, including other minority groups, you clearly aren’t making your decisions based on facts or statistics.

  58. 58
    PeakVT says:

    The idea that Bernie Sanders, one way or another, could be important in solving various racial issues in America is, at best, idotic. The dude is a junior senator from Vermont who will never be president, as bad as that might be for most Americans – and especially black Americans – wallets.

    BLM (or non-BLM, as the case may be) activists would be better off harassing Leahy. At least he’s the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee.

  59. 59
  60. 60
    Suzanne says:

    Not that my opinion matters, but I think it’s cool that Sanders is going to speak at Liberty U. It’s good to stand up for progressivism in places that are typically echo chambers. This is the kind of thing that makes me like Bernie.

  61. 61
    Xenos says:

    @Emma: Liberty University is pretty interesting. I am not sure what Bernie thinks he will accomplish, but some white working class people are getting Bernie-curious, so maybe there is some utility in talking to the creeps at Liberty about his agenda.

    HBCUs should really be on his agenda if he is going to the South, or else Bernie is not very serious about being a Democrat. As a Hillary supporter I am cool with Bernie writing off 1/3 of the Democratic electorate.

  62. 62
    Mandalay says:

    @David Koch:

    Here is how a pro handles hecklers.

    That’s some seriously disingenuous false equivalence from you there. There is a qualitative difference between a president dealing with hecklers from the peanut gallery, and dealing with people who seized the microphone from Sanders and said “If you do not listen to her your event will be shut down”.

    If a president (rather than Bernie Sanders) was speaking, and people stormed the stage and tried to seize the microphone from him, they would stand a pretty good chance of getting shot by bodyguards.

  63. 63
    Diana says:

    @Mnemosyne (tablet): This is why I support the ostensible goals of BLM, because I do read stuff like this.

    But interrupting Bernie Sanders does not make me support BLM.

    That’s the point I’m trying to make.

    Thank you for making it for me.

  64. 64
    redshirt says:

    I saw 4 Bernie yard signs all sprout up next to each other – 4 separate houses, one of which is also an auto garage business. This is in Podunk, Maine. Odd.

  65. 65
    NotMax says:

    Commie pinko appeaser milquetoast.

    :)

  66. 66
    TS says:

    @Diana:

    Then come up with a list of things they can do to protest without being shot/arrested. Whether YOU listen or not isn’t going to help, you’ve made that very clear – if Bernie and/or his campaign staff listen – it may, just may – have an impact. Bernie alone can do little – but one more white politician supporting the rights of black Americans is another small step.

  67. 67

    @Diana:

    Your comment and the links came across as very dismissive of BLM — look, unarmed white people get killed by the cops, too, so why are black people so upset? I really think you’re missing the point in a major way.

    And I myself am white, so it’s not just a black vs white thing.

  68. 68
    Mandalay says:

    @David Koch:

    And I don’t ever recall one rank and file blogger complaining they way they do now over Sanders gettng the same business.

    Of course you don’t because you are deliberately engaging in false equivalence: you are linking to videos showing heckling in the audience.

    How about you linking to videos where protesters actually went on the stage and seized the microphone from Barack Obama, and threatened to shut him down?

    Oh, you don’t have of those?

    Thought not.

  69. 69
    David Koch says:

    Eventually Hilary is going to be heckled, if not shut down, but a BLM group.

    And when that happens everyone is going to run in here and decry and denounce the tactics, right?

  70. 70
    Diana says:

    @TS:@Mnemosyne (tablet): I’m agreeing with their goals, and not with their tactics.

    Is this being dismissive?

    How can I disagree with their tactics, then?

    Please tell me?

  71. 71
    jl says:

    @Mnemosyne (tablet): The fear and hatred generated by ignorant and malicious White bigotry drives a lot of what goes on in this country and is disgusting. The stats you quoted are sure consistent with what i saw living and teaching in working class and poor communities. Most it doesn’t even make the news, since most of the time no one gets hurt or killed. But minorities get some money extracted from them, or put on some bogus gang list, or hassled or insulted.

  72. 72
    Diana says:

    Lots of ways. Full disclosure: I’ve been part of copwatch for a while now:

    http://copwatchnyc.org/

    I hosted a national copwatch organizer for a while here during the real estate bubble in the early aughts and she reported to me that everyone’s complaint was about housing and we should quit with the copwatch stuff. But that was before everyone had a camera on their mobile phone. So forgive me if I find this whole “OMG cops are killing people” discovery now that everyone has a camera amusing. It was always a problem, but until everyone could document it no-one would believe us.

  73. 73
    hamletta says:

    @TS: Why do you want someone else to do the work for you? You make the list!

    Bree Newsome — an effective protestor — is hawking a big protest in Charlotte that looks awesome. It’s a whole day of vigils, protests, teach-in, and a screening of Ferguson to commemorate the Ferguson Uprising.

  74. 74
    Mandalay says:

    @jl:

    there will be more security and screening of events, and people will start getting yanked. I think that would happen with any candidate, Obama, HRC, Sanders.

    As the spouse of a former president, Hillary Clinton is entitled to Secret Service protection for life. I don’t know whether she makes use of that, but if she does, and people tried to seize the microphone from her the way they did to Bernie Sanders, they might end up dead.

  75. 75
    Diana says:

    @TS: no white progressive can ever tell black people what to do. We’ve been told that, over and over. Don’t go back on it now.

  76. 76
    Diana says:

    @Mandalay: oh come on. when has a Presidential heckler ever been shot? Seriously, give us an example.

  77. 77
    askew says:

    The question I am seeing from Bernie supporters on twitter is why #BLM protested Bernie again and not O’Malley or Hillary. Here’s why IMO:

    1. Hillary has almost no public events that aren’t pre-screened in some way. And she has secret service protection so no one is getting on that stage.

    2. When Sanders and O’Malley got protested at Netroots, they had very different responses:

    O’Malley was forced to leave the stage b/c DNC debate rules forbids having 2 candidates on a stage together at an event. O’Malley immediately did interviews w/Goldie Taylor and TWiB where he apologized for saying “All Lives Matter”, talking about Baltimore, #BLM and reforms needed. He also spoke w/ activists at NN and was still talking to them at 11 pm that night. Since then, O’Malley has met with more activists, attended a meeting with 20/20 (an AA organization) & HBCU in South Carolina. He spent today being interviewed by National Association of Black Journalists at their convention. He was the only candidate who agreed to attend their event. He addressed Urban League and previewed his criminal justice reform platform that he had been working on w/input from minority/CJ interest groups with an interview with Ebony magazine. People were gobsmacked by how progressive and detailed his platform was. #BLM, DREAM Coalition, etc. all were praising it for being so impressive.

    Sanders, on the other hand, got defensive during the NN event. He cancelled events post-protest at NN. Didn’t meet with BLM and other activists and continued on his normal schedule while adding language to his stump speeches about BLM and criminal justice.

    Now, it is much easier for O’Malley to spend time meeting with HBCUs, 20/20 and NABJ because he is still struggling to get above 5% in any poll. There is a huge demand for Sanders’ rallies and events so he has less free time. However, O’Malley has clearly made this a priority for him and has dedicated his time and resources to it the same way he has with Latino/immigration issues. No other candidate is doing more than him. Not that it seems to matter much in the polling or fundraising.

  78. 78
    Mandalay says:

    @Diana:

    oh come on. when has a Presidential heckler ever been shot? Seriously, give us an example.

    You keep demonstrating in this thread that you do not understand what people have written. Do you not understand that heckling from the audience is qualitatively different to climbing up on the stage and seizing the microphone?

    The Secret Service would not allow the situation that arose with Sanders to occur if the speaker was the President. But if anyone who was unknown to them was acting that aggressively two feet away from the President they would probably be killed. If you think otherwise you are very naive.

  79. 79
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @efgoldman: HRC has the rights to Secret Service protection for life from being married to Bill, they didn’t change the law until later.

  80. 80
    askew says:

    @Mandalay:

    Yeah, Hillary’s had secret service protection since she and Bill got it assigned to them in 1992. There were complaints with the press earlier this summer that Hillary’s team was using the secret service to block the press from asking any questions from her.

  81. 81
    askew says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Didn’t they reverse that change recently so now it is back to lifetime protection?

    Does Chelsea get lifetime protection as well or only the spouse & president?

  82. 82
    seaboogie says:

    Thank you John G for the kanagaroo/teddy photo, and here is another related kangaroo image for the ladies (and the gents who favor gents) – Roger, the buff kangaroo, who also appears to be quite sensitive (you just have to look into his eyes):

    http://www.independent.co.uk/n.....97639.html

    Sigh….I just want a ‘roo who understands me….

  83. 83
    Jordan Rules says:

    @askew: Yeah, I think Obama changed it back in 2013.

  84. 84
    Diana says:

    @Mandalay: nor will Hillary Clinton ever allow that situation to occur.
    But you are still advocating a hypothetical: “that aggressively two feet away from the President they would probably be killed. If you think otherwise you are very naive.” And I suspect we agree on that!

    But that’s not what BLM claims it’s about. And that’s not what Copwatch is about. Therefore, I believe that isn’t the issue.

    So let’s debate the actual issue — which is how to stop cops from killing people — and not about shutting down Bernie Sanders. Because both the Rethugicans and Hillary Clinton are happy to shut down Bernie Sanders, and, as far as I can tell, they may be even happier to have cops shoot people than him.

    So I don’t think shutting Sanders down is the actual goal. (If that is, please let me — and all of us — know, and I stand corrected.)

    However, is BLM accomplishing anything else by their tactics?

    If they are, please connect the dots.

  85. 85
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @askew: I hadn’t heard about reversing it, maybe on a case by case basis. Shrub and Laura would lose theirs in 2019. If anyone would need it for life…

  86. 86
    Mandalay says:

    @askew: OK, so in that case there is no way that Clinton would ever face a disruption like the one Sanders just had in Seattle – protesters wouldn’t be able to get anywhere near her.

  87. 87
    smintheus says:

    @David Koch: Were any of those hecklers allowed to storm the stage, demand the mike and push Obama aside and shout him down while they launched into their tirades?

  88. 88
    Belafon says:

    @Diana:

    Because both the Rethugicans and Hillary Clinton are happy to shut down Bernie Sanders, and, as far as I can tell, they may be even happier to have cops shoot people than him.

    Huh?

  89. 89
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @smintheus: No, it’s good to be king.

  90. 90
    Diana says:

    @Belafon: c’mon, do you really think the republican candidates are better than Bernie Sanders?

  91. 91
    Belafon says:

    @smintheus: Did you watch the video?

  92. 92
    Belafon says:

    @Diana: There are not just Republicans in your statement.

  93. 93
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    For some reason while reading that I kept expecting either “made a searching inventory of myself” or “five golden rings”, but other than that it looks right.

  94. 94
    smintheus says:

    @Belafon: Which video?

  95. 95
    Diana says:

    @Belafon: Because that’s the worst of it, isn’t it? Because if everyone associates “cops killing” more with “oh these are the guys who trolled Sanders” than with the issue, then Clinton and her ilk can safely ignore it. Anyone here remember ACORN? Not everything winds up with the legacy of the SSDC and MLK.

    And once a post descends more into acronyms than logic, reasoning is over. Goodnight everyone!

  96. 96
    Belafon says:

    @smintheus: The one in the comment you replied to (there’s a link) showing what the hecklers did.

  97. 97
    Belafon says:

    @Diana:

    Because both the Rethugicans and Hillary Clinton are happy to shut down Bernie Sanders, and, as far as I can tell, they may be even happier to have cops shoot people than him.

    I’m going to remove the qualifier in the middle of your sentence. Please tell me if I’m misreading:

    Because both the Rethugicans and Hillary Clinton are happy to shut down Bernie Sanders, and they may be even happier to have cops shoot people than him.

    What I was wondering was if you were accusing Clinton of being ok with blacks being shot by cops. Now maybe your sentence just got away from you. That’s what I was trying to figure out.

  98. 98
    smintheus says:

    @Belafon: Yes. I asked “did any” of the hecklers David Koch mentioned (he talks of hecklers over the years) storm the stage and seize Obama’s mic? I’m pretty sure they didn’t, in which case he’s making a nonsensical comparison to what the BLMers did today.

  99. 99
    sharl says:

    This should help Sanders, and it provides the Black Lives Matter activists with a trusted ally within the Sanders campaign:

    SEATTLE — Hours after Black Lives Matter protesters shut down a Bernie Sanders rally here, the Vermont senator’s populist Democratic presidential campaign once again attempted to cast Sanders as the candidate of a modern civil rights movement.

    Before a crowd of more than 12,000 at the Alaska Airlines Arena on the campus of the University Of Washington, a new public face for the Sanders campaign appeared. Symone Sanders, a volunteer organizer with the D.C.-based Coalition for Juvenile Justice, was announced as the new national press secretary of Sanders’ campaign and was tasked with introducing the 73-year-old senator.

    Symone Sanders is a young, black, criminal justice advocate and supporter of the Black Lives Matter movement. She’s also a progressive political activist right out of the Sanders mold: Her last job was at Ralph Nader’s Public Citizen. In an interview, Symone Sanders said she first connected with the senator about three weeks ago, offering him advice on how to better understand the message of Black Lives Matter activists in an hour-long chat.

    Here is Symone Sanders’ twitter account, for anyone interested.

  100. 100
    Kerry Reid says:

    @ruemara: THANK YOU!

  101. 101
    El Caganer says:

    Say something once, why say it again?

  102. 102
    TS says:

    @Diana:

    I didn’t suggest you agree with them – I suggested you support them in finding ways to get through to white democrats/independents that BLM

    Having to add “independents” because the candidate doesn’t want to belong to the party he wants to represent. smh

  103. 103
    Mike in DC says:

    Well, respect and non-condescenscion is a mutual thing. Give to get, etc. White progressives can be disrespectful and condescending, and so can BLM activists. It turns a potentially constructive and productive interactive dialogue into a free fire zone.

    I’d note that the 2nd rally later that day in Seattle was all over the BLM topic, and introduced Sanders new press secretary. So there’s hope.

  104. 104
    jl says:

    @sharl:

    Symone Sanders introduces Sanders at Seattle speech

    SymoneDSanders
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXbmwqCMRAY

  105. 105
    jl says:

    Symone D Sanders interview

    40 for 40: Symone D. Sanders
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Y4PlrLcoc

  106. 106
    Anne Laurie says:

    @efgoldman:

    If she has secret service protection by then (which she probably will) they won’t get near the stage.

    I checked the Secret Service website FAQs:

    How long do former presidents receive Secret Service protection after they leave office? In 1965, Congress authorized the Secret Service (Public Law 89-186) to protect a former president and his/her spouse during their lifetime, unless they decline protection.

    I most sincerely hope HRClinton is protected, and well, because there are a lot of less-than-well-hinged citizens nursing MRA (Mens Rights Activism) literature and weaponry. We don’t need any more political martyrs.

    And for that very reason, I also hope even the most disaffected anarchokiddie #BLM supporter knows better than to try “storming the stage” at a Clinton event, because… we don’t need any more political martyrs. Not even those who had only the very best and purest intentions!

  107. 107
    Goblue72 says:

    @PJ: nail meets head but no one will listen

  108. 108
    Cervantes says:

    @PJ:

    If the people targeting Bernie Sanders were serious, they would be protesting the modern equivalents of Bull Connor – the GOP, the prison/industrial complex, the police departments of every municipality. Bernie Sanders is, at this stage, an old ineffectual Senator from a tiny state; shutting him down accomplishes nothing.

    I’m not sure they’re unserious, exactly, but the question you raise is a good one.

  109. 109
    Keith G says:

    @Cervantes: Yeah, I imagine that they aren’t “unserious”. I do wonder if they have thought hard about what’s next.

    I typed in the previous and now dead thread that I think focusing just on (or so much on) Sanders is likely a tactical mistake. God knows it’s easy pickings (maybe why it’s happening), but it does seem to indicate a type of lack of ambition or maybe just a lack of reach.

    Are they exchanging short term awareness, for a more robust following and influence later on?

  110. 110
    MomSense says:

    This is so bizarre. Bernie has been calling for a revolution but he can’t handle a direct action by civil rights activists?

    C’mon this is ridiculous. I’ve learned that tactics is the new word for uppity.

  111. 111
    lawguy says:

    Yeah, that is what I’ve been thinking, therefore you must be brilliant. That is, I think this kind of activism is a mistake and makes it more likely that the long term goals of Black Lives Matter will not be achieved.

    The other part of that is when those who are more radical start yelling at me that I don’t understand what African Americans go through. To a degree this is right, but I’m not arguing that point, I’m saying that the methods being used are self defeating. That has nothing to do with what people’s lives are like.

  112. 112
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Useful background history on Bernie:

    http://www.salon.com/2015/07/2.....s_partner/

  113. 113
    RaflW says:

    Centuries-long rage at how f*kd up our culture is might just show up on the doorstep of Democrats. That may seem shocking, but I have come to accept the critique that progressives and Democrats have been insufficiently engaged in undoing systemic racism in our country.

    I’m not talking about individual racism. Most of us get too hung up on the he said something racist stuff. But our institutions are still acting in ways that produce racially inequitable impacts, even if the intent isn’t to do so (plus I think many systems are still intended to do so).

    As I said in last night’s thread, I am not sure the tactics are right.

    But I also know that lots of folks of good conscience thought the early Act Up activism was much too aggressive and set back the cause. But I now believe that Act Up was essential.

    It helped create tension that could be used to move institutions, even as it pissed people off. It also created the space to the ‘right’ of Act Up for more moderate and mainstream Lesbian and Gay (later LGBTQ) groups and AIDS service provides to maneuver and get what was needed.

    Maybe BLM isn’t even looking at that history, I really don’t know. But at this moment I trust that BLM core leaders are smart enough to be evaluating their actions and tactics, building their relationships and movement, and formulating their demands. It’s mighty white of us to be tapping our foot saying “you gotta organize yourselves on our timeline, and in ways that make sense to us.”

    Put another way: Black folks authentically self-organizing for their own liberation in the second decade of the 21st century may not look like past movements. Do not prejudge them, for the movements for black liberation that predate them have only achieved what we have now, and what we have now is wholly insufficient. The daily death count is clear evidence of that.

  114. 114
    Bobby B says:

    Don’t tell me how to love you!!!

  115. 115

    […] As always, John Cole put it much better than I ever could. […]

  116. 116
    Thoughtful Today says:

    A strong sample of Bernie responding to random caller’s questions this last year on Thom Hartmann’s radio program is here:

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLURDA6V2nJziXyqDl_wHzP6C3SfZySgRA

    Bernie’s been responding to questioners, some extremely antagonistic, for decades.

    There are some old CSPAN interviews where he sits quietly listening to callers attack him that are almost surreal.

    … and when Bernie’s given a chance to respond he’s done so with astonishingly consistent eloquence and thoughtfulness.

  117. 117
    shell says:

    What the hell goes on here at night?

  118. 118
    wonkie says:

    @PJ: Yep. Ego-driven showing off is off-putting whether it is Trump. or some individuals in effect censoring an event by disrupting it to a stop.

  119. 119
    White Trash Liberal says:

    So what if Bernie got interrupted?

    The fact is, if the concern for black lives was legit, crying over tactics and tone policing would not happen.

    Bernie’s approach draws crowds. His campaign is built on crowds. He is low hanging fruit. He also hasn’t done more than lip service for BLM issues. This recent hire could help, if he incorporates policy. The other dem candidates have.

    Pray tell, Bernie has a policy in place for an array of economic ailments but yet has not bit the bullet and released anything approaching comprehensive policy like O’Malley and (to a significantly lesser extent) Clinton.

    Yet he will bring his message to Liberty U. He won’t meet with BLM leadership or TWiB, but he’ll go there.

    Why is that?

    Because his priority is an economic plan aimed at white working class voters. The kind who tone police BLM or tone police rioters when the looting happens. The kind who critique tactics because it absolves them from the dirty work of acknowledging black death.

    The Bernbaggers get poo-flingy because they desperately want Bernie to succeed without alienating those elusive white voters. So they act like (cough) white blood cells and attack black critics in a manner that tells them to shutup and recognize that Bernie’s the best friend they will ever have.

    Bernie needs to pivot or his ccampaign will drown under the weight of hubris. Chasing the Caucasian unicorn will not work. That is the tone we should police. Not protestors pointing out that their communities face death and injustice every day.

  120. 120
    Kropadope says:

    @White Trash Liberal: You realize you’re full of it, right? People who want activists not to use self-destructive tactics want that because they support the activists goals and are trying to prevent nose cutting to spite faces.

  121. 121
    MomSense says:

    @RaflW:

    Great comment.

  122. 122
    White Trash Liberal says:

    @Kropadope:

    Self destructive says who? You? According to what metric? Because they aren’t shutting down the GOP which gives even less of a shit than white progressives?

    You being uncomfortable with tactics and tone is a world of difference from dying at the hands of a systemically racist justice system.

    Just support and listen. Shit isn’t that hard.

  123. 123
    kc says:

    @Mnemosyne (tablet):

    There are plenty of black people questioning these tactics.

  124. 124
    Steve from Antioch says:

    The protestors disrupting the Sander’s rally are just misguided fucking assholes.

    No need to apologize for pointing out that they are misguided fucking assholes.

  125. 125
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Bernie’s running a national election strategy that immediately embraced the civil right’s concerns of the Black Lives Matter protesters.

    Bernie has literally brought up Black Lives Matters issues in front of 10’s of thousands in every rally since the Netroots disruption.

    Bernie’s hired a Black Lives activist as a part of his team.

    Bernie respectfully waited for 20 minutes as the Black Lives Matter protesters took over a Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid celebration before moving on (he had other events planned and clearly the BLM activists weren’t going to let him speak).

    Bernie’s later rally drew 12,000 (+3,000 ‘overflow’), making it his biggest event to date, bigger than any other Presidential candidate, and he was introduced by a Black Lives activist:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXbmwqCMRAY

    ^ Rousing introduction.

  126. 126
    Kropadope says:

    @White Trash Liberal: I find being told I don’t give a shit REALLY tiring. That and the fact that during the three day span when the BLM protest issue consumed this blog, most of the people on the BLM side wanted to hold the dissenters accountable for what was being said on Twitter rather than what was being said here.

    Also, it seems like a majority of the people most aggressively defending these BLM protests who have identified their race are white. It’s almost like you feel compelled to defend these protests regardless of their content or approach. Guilt much?

  127. 127
    White Trash Liberal says:

    @Kropadope:

    No guilt here. That won’t hit a nerve. I’m doing my part to try and help foster what should be an ideal moment to learn and grow.

    I am defending the protests and the movement because:

    1. I believe in the cause

    2. It’s not my job to tell BLM that they are defending their lives wrong. It’s my job to say black lives matter and support their growing pains.

    If anything, I find myself growing in awareness. When I was a youngster and watched the LA uprising and the OJ trial, I was all about pushing the white power narratives. I’d like to believe that what motivates isn’t guilt, but recognition of my failings and a desire to do better.

    The recognition of white power being as strong a force as class power in shaping our society is central to progress.

  128. 128
    Linnaeus says:

    @Kropadope:

    Also, it seems like a majority of the people most aggressively defending these BLM protests who have identified their race are white. It’s almost like you feel compelled to defend these protests regardless of their content or approach. Guilt much?

    Not necessarily. What I think many of BLM’s defenders are doing – what I hope they are doing – is trying to put themselves in the shoes of BLM and its organizers. This is something I also hope that BLM’s critics are doing, but sometimes I wonder if they are. You don’t have to like how BLM (or those who are in some way affiliated with it) is doing its activism, but imagine being in their position: trying to fight against a social structure that can, among other things, render you dead for no reason and there’s little to no accountability for that. So you self-organize and now you’ve got others, many of whom don’t live in quite the same reality as you do, telling you you’re doing it all wrong. I can see where that creates a problem.

    There’s an inherent tension in any coalition. This tension is uncomfortable, but that can be a healthy thing because that can push some people to confront issues that they might not otherwise. The word “ally” gets thrown around a lot, but if one is going to be an ally, then she or he needs to consider what they’re willing to put on the line. Being an ally doesn’t mean that everything is going to be comfortable for you. It doesn’t mean that the people you’re working with are necessarily going to like you or think you’re a great.person. Are you (the generic “you”) willing to deal with that? What will you do to help bring about a solution? What ideas about strategy, tactics, etc. will you bring to the table and to whom will you reach out to do so?

    None of this means that BLM or any other social justice/activist organization can’t be criticized. But if you put yourself in the shoes of the organization you’re criticizing, I think it makes for better understanding and more constructive engagement among allies.

  129. 129
    LongHairedWeirdo says:

    You can be 100% honest in saying all of that – but you’ll still have some people say that you’re “tone policing” or any one of another set of things. And that’s okay. That they disagree with you and think you’re telling them (say) to suck up, rather than fight back, doesn’t mean you’re enemies either.

    It can be hard to try to be a good friend/ally, the best you can be, and get anger in return, but if you *really* want to be a good friend, you let your friends be angry with you once in a while.

  130. 130
    Linnaeus says:

    @LongHairedWeirdo:

    It can be hard to try to be a good friend/ally, the best you can be, and get anger in return, but if you *really* want to be a good friend, you let your friends be angry with you once in a while.

    Yes, this. Especially when the stakes are higher for your friend than they are for you.

  131. 131
    Kropadope says:

    @Linnaeus: I get that, I really do. There’s a failure of some, however, to “get” that being told you don’t give a shit or that you want to silence a movement that you fundamentally agree with is dispiriting.

    ETA: And honestly, I don’t know how to solve the problem any more than anyone else does. But you don’t need to be Hugo Chavez to see that demonizing people for not agreeing about tactics doesn’t seem like the right approach.

  132. 132
    Jimgod says:

    @Kropadope: Absolutely correct, sir.

  133. 133
    Jimgod says:

    @MomSense: People rushing a stage and shutting everything down is not a revolution. And Sanders’ revolution is one at the ballot box. If you can’t understand the difference, that’s your problem. And yes I disagree with the tactics here so naturally I am a racist. I denounce myself and Stalin.

  134. 134
    elftx says:

    The officer I have some sympathy for is the one from the McKinney pool party.
    He should never have been on that call considering the earlier events he responded to that day.
    One was a suicide and the second a suicide attempt.

  135. 135
    Kerry Reid says:

    @RaflW: Great analogy with Act Up and a cogent analysis. Thank you for this.

  136. 136
    Linnaeus says:

    @Kropadope:

    I can understand the frustration – it’s just that I think it’s important to understand that criticism of BLM’s tactics does not take place in a vacuum. To be clear, I’m not saying don’t criticize, nor am I saying that people who do so should be demonized (no, they shouldn’t). But there is a context here that is too easily forgotten.

  137. 137
    LAC says:

    @White Trash Liberal: amen! Only some sanderita could find merit in Sanders going to a school that is against every thing that the democratic party is supposedly stand for. To what end? And if this going to be another election year of PUMA bullshit that will be laid at the feet of BLM then what? This is so fucking tiresome.

  138. 138
    MomSense says:

    @Jimgod:

    Bernie Sanders has been a politician for a long time. He has had plenty of time since Netroots Nation to meet with BLM organizers and craft a policy statement on police violence.

    I don’t see why he is being so stubborn on this issue. If activists want to push him on this issue, that is their right.

  139. 139
    Kropadope says:

    @MomSense: He’s not being stubborn. He already had a position on police violence and since the protests has been making an extra effort to make sure people know that. The linked story is from a month before Netroots Nation and was certainly not the first time he addressed this issue.

    Just because you didn’t know it was there, doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

  140. 140
    blueskies says:

    @White Trash Liberal: Gee, glad I’ve got my marching orders.

    Asshole.

    See? Act like a dick, and you lose support.

    Shit isn’t that hard (to borrow your words). But I guess it’s harder for you.

  141. 141
    blueskies says:

    @MomSense:

    He has had plenty of time since Netroots Nation to meet with BLM organizers and craft a policy statement on police violence.

    I don’t see why he is being so stubborn on this issue. If activists want to push him on this issue, that is their right.

    And information in this thread indicates that he has done or is doing all of what you ask.

    And yet…

  142. 142
    Jimgod says:

    @blueskies: Clearly this is going to be the tenor of this campaign. It’s Sanders vs. Clinton with Clinton the nominee. But on the way there, I guess this will be a racial proxy campaign between two white people. It’s certainly something that American Government scholars are going to get a lot of mileage on researching in years to come. But the anti-Sanders camps has their talking points about this issue (hell, they were trotting them out in late June 3 weeks before the Netroots Nation incident) and they just won’t give them up, reality be damned. Oh well.

  143. 143
    Steve from Antioch says:

    Is this one of the subject asswipes: http://imgur.com/WB1aNYP

  144. 144
    LAC says:

    @Jimgod: oh please. He addressed a feeling. Made a couple comments. Y’all want a cookie now. Is there any legislative action he has taken. Or put together? If it wasn’t for the fact that president Obama had to solve every racial problem, hang by the thumbs every bank executive, solve global warming, etc to show the ” left” that he was progressive, you Sanderitas wouldn’t get such pushback. You expect that some comments should do it and that we should shut up and sit down.

  145. 145
    Jimgod says:

    @LAC: What in God’s name are you talking about? I talk about Sanders and Clinton and you bring up Obama. I don’t go for most of the left criticism of Obama, save for the TPP. On that the President is wrong, full stop. We’re talking about the here and now, not the Obot-Firebagger Wars of aught 10. Please stay up to date.

  146. 146
    LAC says:

    @Jimgod: I will do it if you do. I am hearing the same fauxgressive shit with a different flavor. Apparently sanders saying something is sufficient and those that are not on board are the ” anti sanders camps” ( your words). You really think that this isn’t a variation of ” how left thou are?” Who are you kidding?

  147. 147
    Jimgod says:

    @LAC: Not at all. He’s one Senator of 100 on a level of government that has little to do with the internal police power of the country. All Clinton, Webb, Chaffe, and Sanders are going to do is say words. All Obama has done is say words. Ultimately, this is a local issue that will be decided by local elections. The idea that he is supposed to singlehandedly stop police killings is asinine. Who are YOU kidding?

  148. 148
    LAC says:

    @Jimgod: oh I am soooo glad you all figured out civics 101. So no more sitting on your hands ilike you did in 2011 because Ed Schultz said it would show Obama because sparkle ponies and duh? So now we figured it out? Yay!!!! Three branches!!!!

  149. 149
    Thoughtful Today says:

    !!!!!

    Bernie had ~20,000+ people at his Portland, Oregon rally tonight!

  150. 150
    Thoughtful Today says:

    ^
    I’m voting for fixing the climate system.

    If you’re not, we’re not voting for the same people.

  151. 151
    Thoughtful Today says:

    Bernie’s (current;) record crowd at Portland, Oregon’s Moda Center, a.k.a. the Rose Garden according to local station KGW:

    “Not only was the 19,980 capacity at Moda Center full, but thousands were forced to listen outside.”

    http://www.kgw.com/story/news/...../31392237/

  152. 152
    Thoughtful Today says:

    !

    Symone D. Sanders on Twitter: “Sen Sanders has been walking the walk and talking the talk. If you’re wondering where he stands on racial issues.. https://t.co/IaP4LyuesG

    tweet: https://twitter.com/SymoneDSanders/status/630427838055735298

    Symone D Sanders twitter account: https://twitter.com/SymoneDSanders

  153. 153
    Paul in KY says:

    The kangaroo picture is sorta sad. I feel for just about any creature that loses it’s mother as a child.

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