Good Golly, Miss Mollie

Here’s Mollie Hemingway making an interesting comparison regarding the removal of the Confederate flag from public squares:

Basically it’s just such a hysterical atmosphere at this point, that no one can conceive of a person who is against something but also willing to tolerate the expression of that thing. Can we be against Jeff Davis — and also against destroying art and monuments and history just because they involve Jeff Davis?

Symbols are tremendously important, and state sponsorship of symbols is very much worth fighting about. But there are ways to express disapproval of art, monuments and aspects of history without taking the approach of, say, blowing up the Buddhas, to take one recent example.

As they say in the south, “Bless her heart.”

Bonus points for making the rebel case at a rag titled “The Federalist.”






92 replies
  1. 1
    Corner Stone says:

    VRA! VRA! VRA!

  2. 2
    Trentrunner says:

    I’m quite confident that there will be more than enough confederate flags displayed on private property.

  3. 3
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    The US toppled the fuck out some Saddam statues not too far back. I wonder how she felt about that at the time.

  4. 4
    lamh36 says:

    @edatpost
    NEW: Congressional Democrats to introduce new Voting Rights Act fix via @WesleyLowery http://wapo.st/1LzTVAs

    https://twitter.com/edatpost/status/613510324810088448

  5. 5
    lamh36 says:

    BTW Cole, how did you have a good birthday? I’m assuming since no post bout you tripping on a shoelace and breaking your coccyx or collarbone, that you must be ok and did not succumb to one of your bad luck accidents?

  6. 6
    Corner Stone says:

    I actually think the racist Roof may get some small part of his desire. If not a full on race war, it’s conceivable to me that we will see a wave of white resentment like we haven’t seen since Reagan or maybe the ’60s.
    This all seems to be crashing to a head on some small symbols that may give fury to the kinds of shitheels that really want to do harm.

  7. 7
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lamh36: Great news.

  8. 8
    Tree With Water says:

    Years ago I went completely nuts studying the Civil War. Dived in, and didn’t come up for years. There are elements and reactions playing out in the aftermath of the horror at Charleston that I frankly find fascinating. I even dare hope that great and powerful good may yet come of it..

  9. 9
    RSA says:

    Whitesplaining is so helpful sometimes. Because the title of the article ends with “Now What?” I checked her last few pieces, hoping to find what she proposes to do about racism. Hmm, something seems to be missing…

  10. 10
    piratedan says:

    she’s no Molly Ivins

  11. 11
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    So I guess it’ll be a while before they sandblast Robert E. Lee off the side of Stone Mountain.

  12. 12
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tree With Water:

    Years ago I went completely nuts studying the Civil War. Dived in, and didn’t come up for years.

    Sounds fascinating. Could you possibly take some time and give us a synopsis of what you learned from your deep dive? Maybe 18 months or so of introspection might do it.

  13. 13
    JGabriel says:

    Mollie Hemingway:

    Symbols are tremendously important, and state sponsorship of symbols is very much worth fighting about. But there are ways to express disapproval of art, monuments and aspects of history without taking the approach of, say, blowing up the Buddhas, to take one recent example.

    Gosh, I never thought of it like that (probably because I have a functioning moral sense). But Mollie’s right: removing monuments to people who committed treason and went to war a century and a half ago for the heinous goal of preserving chattel slavery is just like blowing up millenia old religious symbols of peace, contemplation, and enlightenment.

    Or, you know, maybe not?

  14. 14
    Mike in NC says:

    @Corner Stone: How much white resentment haven’t we had for the past six years?

  15. 15
    Chris says:

    I’ve never understood why the Republican lawyer frat calls itself “the Federalist Society.” They were the BIG government party, and rooted in the Northeast to boot. Is it just because it sounds Founding Fathery?

  16. 16
    Corner Stone says:

    Ok, so we’re 15+ minutes into TRMS. I think we whiteys have got the gist of this.

  17. 17
    JGabriel says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I actually think the racist Roof may get some small part of his desire. If not a full on race war, it’s conceivable to me that we will see a wave of white resentment like we haven’t seen since Reagan or maybe the ’60s.

    Or maybe like since that time we elected a black president?

  18. 18
    raven says:

    @Corner Stone: And she’s wrong about Deal.

    Gov. Nathan Deal said Tuesday he wants a redesign of a state-sponsored license plate featuring the Confederate flag emblem, as a growing list of other Southern governors call for similar changes.

    The Republican stopped short of calling for the Sons of Confederate Veterans tags to be phased out or eliminated entirely, as the leaders in North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee announced Tuesday. He said the redesign, though, would seek to eliminate the bigger visage of the flag that covers the background of the entire tag. The change, he added, wouldn’t require legislative action.

  19. 19
    NotMax says:

    Brought up from below:

    Hmmm.

    Anyone seen any pushback recently against the Stone Mountain monument? It is on land owned by the state of Georgia, after all.

    @SiubhanDuinne

    Dang, you’re quick. And prescient, to boot. :)

  20. 20
    jl says:

    @RSA: And ignorant, deluded ‘whitesplaining’ at that. I’m seeing more and more news articles that give the history of the battle flag of Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia as a historic symbol of Southern Heritage. It is not. I was introduced and promoted as such in the 20th century to protest federal efforts to end racial discrimination and denial of voting rights in the South.

    A lot of these people do not seem to realize that the forces that promote racial wedge issues do not really believe in that stuff. The leaders believe in power and money. And power and especially corporate money seem to be saying that certain political racial wedge tools are becoming noxious to a growing majority of the population. So, out they go, and that is just too bad for the true believers.

    Fix racism, and then maybe we can talk about an honest appraisal of history and role various symbols and memorials should play in national memory.

    I think, hope, that for most people around the country, and I hope most whites, the notion of removing Confederate battle flag (that it turns out is not really a long standing symbol of Southern Heritage at all) from government buildings and grounds will lead to tearing down every Civil War monument that mentions that Confederacy is crazy.

    But, hey, if they (edit: and we, all over the country) don’t start fixing the racism, then some other symbol will be hijacked and polluted too, or racists and manipulators will manufacture a fake, and then there will be controversy about that too.

    So, yeah, we need to get on ‘What’s Next’ I’m looking forward to her thoughts on that.

  21. 21
    Chris says:

    @JGabriel:

    Also, it’s not just the flag, it’s the flag being on government turf. Private citizens can endorse whatever the fuck they want, but when the government endorses an insurgency, it’s like, WTF?!

  22. 22
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mike in NC: Yeah, but that black guy was just fucking offensive being in our White House. We couldn’t fucking take that god damn bullshit but it was just there for right now, ya’know?
    Now, however, the forces of darkness, mongrelization, the other, are all coming after my family! My history, honor, tradition! The shit I believe every freakin’ morning I get out of bed to go check my still or meth lab!
    I won’t fucking allow it!

  23. 23
    NotMax says:

    There’s no comparison. Who aside from Ms. Hemingway is advocating physical destruction?

  24. 24
    Corner Stone says:

    @JGabriel: Answered below. The usurper is temporary transgression against our blood and good name.
    But if you take away my pride, my heritage, my family history and honor then, suh, that will.not.stand.

    ETA, Ok, answered above. Sheesh.

  25. 25
    Linnaeus says:

    Hm. Wingnut welfare really does have a low bar.

  26. 26
    WereBear says:

    Why, look at all those villages in Eastern Europe who have a statue of Genghis Khan in the square!

    /snark

  27. 27
    lamh36 says:

    Can’t lie, my reaction to the following:

    Strom Thurmond’s son Paul calls for Confederate flag to come down http://www.postandcourier.com/...../150629748 via @postandcourier

    http://i.imgur.com/jlHvo7A.gif

  28. 28
    Corner Stone says:

    I really don’t care who knows it – I love the modern classic film Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter

  29. 29
    James E Powell says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I doubt that taking their flag off of government buildings will have any effect on the Neo-Confederates, their beliefs, or their voting behavior. It fits in so well with their narrative of Perpetual Persecution of White Males that is the core tenet of the FOX worldview.

    It’s not about the Neo-Confederates. No good is ever going to come from them anyway.

  30. 30
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    Add Tennessee to the list.

    Gov. Bill Haslam supports discontinuing Tennessee license plates that feature the Confederate battle flag and removing the bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest from the Tennessee statehouse.

    In a statement issued later Tuesday afternoon, U.S. Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., echoed Haslam’s answers on ending the license plates with Confederate flags and removing Forrest’s bust.

  31. 31
    Botsplainer says:

    My dad is a compulsive antique collector, a hobby which angers me.

    In childhood, he hung an oil painting of Robert E Lee in my bedroom, wearing Confederate colors. Always hated it. When I inherit it, I’m burning it.

  32. 32
    Corner Stone says:

    Myrlie Evers should be played by CCH Pounder in any future movie.

  33. 33
    raven says:

    This is really interesting

    Go Tell It on the Mountain

    The last time he hiked to the top of Stone Mountain before embarking on a new life in South America, longtime Atlanta writer and novelist Charles McNair saw a ghost, had a dream and found a new, pure heart in the old mountain.

    I was at a conference at Stone Mountain last year and I climbed it to see the sunrise. They diversity of the people climbing it and exercising on the trails was incredible.

  34. 34
    NotMax says:

    Repeating.

    So Lindsey Graham bent to the political winds about the capitol display. But just heard him saying he flies that same flag at his own house. Did not hear him say he intends to stop that practice himself.

    “Do as I say today, not as I do every day” makes for a really crappy campaign slogan.

  35. 35
    Corner Stone says:

    @James E Powell:

    It fits in so well with their narrative of Perpetual Persecution of White Males that is the core tenet of the FOX worldview.

    I think it may end up being like a magnifying glass in the sun. There is the possibility. These guys don’t live in the actual real world.

  36. 36
    JGabriel says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I love the modern classic film Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter.

    That movie is the subject of one of my all-time favorite idiotic NYT headlines:

    Aside From the Vampires, Lincoln Film Seeks Accuracy

  37. 37
    Corner Stone says:

    @NotMax:

    But just heard him saying he flies that same flag at his own house. Did not hear him say he intends to stop that practice himself.

    IMO, I think you misheard him. He was talking about people who say certain things. I do not think he has it in his house. It was an awkward segue but I think he was speaking of third parties.

  38. 38
    JPL says:

    @raven: Rachel was wrong about the history of the flag, also.

  39. 39
    Corner Stone says:

    Myrlie Evers is going fucking all the way there tonight on TRMS!

  40. 40
    NotMax says:

    @Corner Stone

    “I fly it at my house” is pretty darned impossible to misinterpret.

  41. 41
    Steve from Antioch says:

    Removing the flag isn’t enough! We shouldn’t even use those words. Hereafter all right-minded folks should refer to it as the “CF word”.

  42. 42
    JPL says:

    @Steve from Antioch: Actually that’s pretty funny. Maybe the tv stations should bleep out the words.

  43. 43
    dmsilev says:

    @Steve from Antioch: What, you don’t like ‘The Confederacy of Treason In Defense Of Slavery”?

  44. 44
    raven says:

    Try not to engage this asshole. . . please.

    shit, too slow

  45. 45
    NotMax says:

    @Steve from Antioch

    If the warranty is still valid on your snark generator, would return it ASAP as being defective.

  46. 46
    JPL says:

    @NotMax: Last Friday, I thought he said he didn’t own the symbol.
    I think Lindsay is flipping and flopping so hard, he’s not sure what he thinks anymore.

  47. 47
    lamh36 says:

    Ok, this is just ri-donk-alous. The “speed” at which this shit is moving, tells me that alot of these companies and organizations are using this to get the Confed flag controversies off their backs for good. I suspect even if not high profile, companies are just tire of the bullshit that flag brings their way..

    @staceyNYCDC
    The speed this issue is moving with is a wow//Ole Miss supports removing Confederate battle flag from state flag http://m.wlox.com/wlox/db_3451.....d=mBor1Ems
    https://twitter.com/staceyNYCDC/status/613519564618338308

  48. 48
    Corner Stone says:

    @NotMax: You misunderstood him.

  49. 49
    Debbie says:

    @Trentrunner:

    I heard earlier tonight that sales of the flag had increased over the past week.

  50. 50
    NotMax says:

    @lamh36

    Whoops. One other thing that institution has been working to remove is being referred to as “Ole Miss.”

  51. 51
    GregB says:

    I can’t recall any conservatives or rightwingers expressing shock at the cultural genocide in Iraq when the Saddam statue was torn down?

  52. 52
    NotMax says:

    @Debbie

    Repeated from an earlier thread:

    Alotta Signs of Sparks, Nev., typically sells about five Confederate flags per week. On Monday, however, 46 orders came in. Then South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley called for removing the stars and bars from her state’s capitol grounds. The next morning, Alotta Signs logged 200 orders for Confederate flags, most of them through Amazon (AMZN). “We don’t even have the lowest price,” says Dave Pearson, owner and president of the company. “It’s nuts.”
    [snip]
    Alotta’s flag, a 3-by-5 nylon embroidered model that sells for $13.95 plus $6.25 shipping (and is not eligible for Amazon’s free-shipping service, Prime) was the No. 7 bestseller as of midday Tuesday. …  Source

  53. 53
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @NotMax:

    I haven’t been to SM in, probably, 20 years, but my recollection is that they sold a metric shitload of Confederate Battle Flag merchandise in their store. I might be misremembering, and for sure I’m not going back to verify.

    I have friends who live in the town of Stone Mountain and can see the dome from their houses (not unlike Sarah Palin and Russia). I have many additional friends who regularly climb Stone Mountain, or who go to sunrise religious services there on Easter Sunday.

    It is geologically very cool, but the few times in my life I’ve actually been there, I’ve always felt very uncomfortable.

  54. 54
    gf120581 says:

    @Debbie: Last rush before it becomes unavailable. Reminds me of those mad runs at the liquor stores on the eve of Prohibition.

  55. 55
    NotMax says:

    @SiubhanDuinne

    Ivy is relatively cheap. Kudzu even more so.

    Just sayin’.

  56. 56
    JPL says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: We hiked up a few times but never stayed to view the front.

  57. 57
    gf120581 says:

    @lamh36: It’s very similar to what happened in Indiana with Pence and the “religious freedom” B.S. he was peddling. Once the corporations and business community weighed in and made their displeasure known, he caved and caved quickly. We’re getting a lot of the same here, I think. Nikki Haley said before that she never had a CEO ask her about the flag before. I think that’s changed in the last few days.

    As has been proven time and time again, corporations don’t like anything that stinks of racism or bigotry. It’s bad for business. And while the GOP may pander to bigots, in the end, money always wins out.

  58. 58
    lamh36 says:

    @USATODAY
    Governing board at The Citadel votes to remove Confederate Navy Jack from chapel at the historic military college http://usat.ly/1NhtdOb

    https://twitter.com/USATODAY/status/613523354922950656

  59. 59
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @NotMax:

    At last, a positive use for kudzu!

    I am tempted to order bumper stickers, and maybe set up a website, saying something like COVER THE MOUNTAIN WITH KUDZU or KUDZU ROBERT E. LEE or similar.

  60. 60
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @lamh36:

    It’s really kind of amazing. It’s as though all these institutions have just been waiting (for years, decades even) for the tipping point moment or critical mass to go ahead and do the right thing.

  61. 61
    Jane2 says:

    She’s still free to fly the thing, drape herself in it, draw hearts with MH + JD…whatever. It’ll make it easy to identify her for what she is and avoid.

  62. 62
    srv says:

    Tolerance will not be tolerated.

  63. 63
    Corner Stone says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    It’s really kind of amazing. It’s as though all these institutions have just been waiting (for years, decades even) for the tipping point moment or critical mass to go ahead and do the right thing.

    Like when hostages have been held, or small children assaulted in some *cough* institution. A kind of collective amnesia.

  64. 64
    Tree With Water says:

    @Corner Stone: It seems knowledge bothers you, which is both strange and sad.

  65. 65
    Steve from Antioch says:

    @JPL:

    And pixellate the image anytime it’s shown. I mean, c’mon, middle fingers get pixellated but not the CF ???

  66. 66
    jl says:

    @gf120581: Like bump in gun sales right after a Democrat, and especially Obama, wins presidential election recently. True gun nuts are a small minority, but they stock up in preparation for the cataclysm (that it turns out never arrives). Most people won’t like seeing an offensive symbol at a store or website, and once a few corporations decide to drop it, every single major competitor feels that they have to drop it too.

    But, true believers will stock up.

  67. 67
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tree With Water: On the contrary, good Tree. I am explicitly asking you to detail what, if anything, you learned from that minor obsession.
    I don’t know how long it may take to offer value from your research but I, for one, want to hear all about it.

  68. 68
    Joel says:

    Doesn’t this qualify as nutpicking?

  69. 69
    Gvg says:

    Ole Miss has been trying to dump the confederate association for awhile. dumped their mascot the rebel general awhile back and went without while they tried to decide on a new one. they actually said it was holding back their academic reputation and they couldn’t recruit because of it, both athletes and professors.
    I haven’t actually gotten around to posting it but I would be delighted to blow up a bunch of monuments and burn a bunch of flags. I am a white southerner and I HATE that symbol. I hate all the times I have had to be polite to some bigot with that symbol and lately worry about fear one might shoot me if I said anything. I have a bunch of pent up anger and am totally ready to have a big party and smash a bunch if things that should never have been on public land. can’t imagine what black citizens feel but it’s likely some people have said enough to get the bigots worried. I am normally rather prim and law abiding. if I feel this way…..riots are possible.

  70. 70
    El Caganer says:

    I wonder if any of the wingnuts will go completely in the opposite direction and do something totally berserk, like that Lithuanian dude who created Stalinworld. The Nathan Bedford Fun-TIme Forrest or some shit.

  71. 71
    Debbie says:

    @gf120581:

    Cracker speculation probably, but what will they do if EBay bans their sale?

  72. 72
    gf120581 says:

    @Debbie: They revive the Pony Express only for the purpose of smuggling Confederate flags by nightfall?

    They can even do the Rebel Yell while doing delivery runs. You know, for heritage purposes. ;)

  73. 73
    Tehanu says:

    The disingenuousness of these people never ceases to amaze me. Well, really, everything about them amazes me, including the fact that they look like human beings instead of the soulless moral warthogs they are.

  74. 74
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tehanu: What have soulless moral warthogs ever done to deserve that comparison?

  75. 75
    NotMax says:

    @gf120581

    Bonus: child labor!

    :P

  76. 76
    Tree With Water says:

    Here’s an interesting Civil War link courtesy of the Manchester Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/us

    Update: Sorry, that link is to the paper’s front page. Somewhere therein is a very cool photo montage of Civil War places then and now.

  77. 77
    craigie says:

    The comments under that essay are pretty amazing, but this might be the bell-clanging winner:

    I don’t think a country that made a not-too-bright black woman with a television show and a magazine one of the richest and most loved of women in the world can rightly be said to be inflicted with “a scourge of racism.” The United States has been making lots of black people famous and rich for the last 100 years at least. Not much racism there.

    In America a black person can become rich, famous, and popular by their own talents and hard work. In other countries which have never been accused of racism, black men become rich mainly by becoming Marxist dictators. Black women only become rich in those countries by marrying black dictators.

    Most racism in America is black racism, not white racism. If you still want to talk about a “scourge of racism,” look there.

    Where to begin…

  78. 78
    LWA (Liberal With Attitude) says:

    I find it funny that when a rightwinger searches his mind for some Krazy Librul thing to use as troll fodder, the wildest, Krayziest idea is that the flag of treason and terror should be treated like the word “fuck”, i.e. pixelated and bleeped.

    Its of a piece with the way some of them will feign propriety by allowing that it is “bad manners” or like Erick Erickson, that it is un-Christian, like we were talking about using the word “fuck” instead of “intercourse” or something.

    The idea that the Confederacy was, in the most literal way possible, treason by traitors who hated the basic concept of America, escapes those who want to let it escape.

    Fuck.

  79. 79
    KS in MA says:

    @James E Powell:

    But it may be possible to erode the neoconfederates’ support among people who are not (or not quite) extremists themselves. Kind of like anti-bullying programs in schools–move the bystanders out of bystander mode. That has begun to happen during the past week. It’s only a beginning, but it IS a beginning.

  80. 80
    Flukebucket says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    So I guess it’ll be a while before they sandblast Robert E. Lee off the side of Stone Mountain.

    I would love to see them carve an image of Obama looking down on those riders and grinning that million dollar grin that he has.

  81. 81
    Cckids says:

    @Debbie:

    Cracker speculation probably, but what will they do if EBay bans their sale?

    Ebay did ban it, as of today. Confederate flags are now on the prohibited list.

  82. 82
    dww44 says:

    @Tree With Water: I share your hopeful take on the current situation. Gov. Haley has unleashed something that perhaps she didn’t expect, but kudos to her anyways.

    In reality, though, any progress in the dismantling of hateful symbols will happen because of the unassailable goodness and innocence of those African American victims.

  83. 83
    PhilbertDesanex says:

    Crap. I have long wanted some Stars ‘n’ Bars to burn on the Fourth. But certainly don’t want top pay China for them. Well, unless firecracker. Guess I’ll have to print my own.

  84. 84
    John Cole says:

    @lamh36: It was laid back. First one sober since probably turning 21 in the desert in Kuwait.

  85. 85
    moderateindy says:

    @LWA (Liberal With Attitude):

    The idea that the Confederacy was, in the most literal way possible, treason by traitors who hated the basic concept of America, escapes those who want to let it escape.

    Exactly. White conservative southerners are always blathering about how patriotic they are, and how much evil libruls hate their country. Yet at the same time they worship a flag that personifies trying to destroy that very country. Of course don’t try to confuse them with logic, thinking hurts.
    By the way the “confederate flag” wasn’t particularly popular until it was adopted as a symbol of white supremacy during the backlash against the civil rights movement. But, you know, heritage. Of course, these same maroons call the civil war, the war of Northern aggression, cause you remember how the north seceeded, and then fired on Fort Sumter.

  86. 86
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @Chris: in case you are still reading, your hardcore libertarian believes the Federalist Papers are actually a blueprint for the night watchman state that Jesus, acting through his prophet Madison, decreed for the United States before the statist coup. Just when the statist coup happened is not universally agreed, although many point to the election of 1860, which brigs things back around to the topic of the thread.

  87. 87
    Paul in KY says:

    Who the fuck is Mollie Hemingway?!

  88. 88
    Paul in KY says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Maybe some day the sculptures can be modified into Gen. Sherman & Gen. Thomas?

  89. 89
    Paul in KY says:

    @John Cole: Happy birthday, John.

  90. 90
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Corner Stone: I occasionally think, “You know, the race war those people keep talking about is really going to happen, because fool racist white people are going to start it.”

    And then I realize that that’s a stupid statement because the race war on that level started about 300 years ago and has been going on ever since.

  91. 91
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @dww44: We’ll have had real progress when an atrocity against African-Americans is considered a bad thing even when they’re just ordinary people who are possibly kind of jerks sometimes.

  92. 92
    J R in WV says:

    @craigie:

    ‘Cause just so many innocent and unarmed white folks die in a hailstorm of bullets from gangs of black law officers!!!

    I can’t watch a football game for all the news alerts about dead white folk at the hands of the black state police!! Why, it’s so bad nowadays we should all get bulletproof vests free when we register to vote!

    Racists are so stupid, I can’t tell whether their madness or their stupidity is worse.

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