Meet the South Carolina shooter.
If you are wondering why he looks so angry and why he did such a stupid, bloody act, those flags on his jacket might help.
This is the flag of Apartheid-era South Africa…
…and this is the flag that Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) flew when it was ruled by a white racist dictatorship.
South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley showed that famous compartmentalization of the white Southern mind when she called the act “senseless”. Other state leaders called it unfathomable. Then they went back to work under the Confederate battle flag that flies every day from their rusted pickup truck state Capitol (photo credit Grace Beahm, Post and Courier).
Those three flags make a matched set, wouldn’t you say. In fact of the three racist regimes I think it is reasonable to say that the older regime, the one Governor Haley represents with pride, committed acts that would shame PW Botha. Of anyone in the world I think Nikki Haley and her neo-Confederate crowd understand perfectly well why someone would take out his insane rage on a place that symbolizes black equal rights and, historically, black resistance to slavery.
JPL
There’s also a picture of Dylann Storm Roof in front of his car. Of course, his license plate is the confederate flag.
Duke of Clay
Give some credit. I can remember when the Stars and Bars flew OVER the capitol in SC. Baby steps.
Librarian
He could have “I hate black people” tattooed on his forehead, and Fox will still say it had nothing to do with race.
Betty Cracker
President Obama will make a statement shortly (11:45). You can watch it live here.
dmsilev
Apparently he’s been arrested.
Chris
@Duke of Clay:
“Why, in another twenty years, you’ll be able to shake their hands in broad daylight!”
Trentrunner
It’s almost comic, if not so tragic:
Fox News: This was an attack on religion.
Dylann Roof: “I’m here to kill black people. You’re raping our women. You’re taking over our country.”
Fox News:
muddy
Check out these comments from Redstate on this topic gathered up at First Draft this morning.
It’s just truly remarkable.
Heliopause
On the left coast here so I’m a little late to this, but it’s interesting to see media and government figures are using every term in the book to describe this person other than the one our culture invented explicitly for this occasion: “Lone Wolf Terrorist”. At least, we hope he’s a lone wolf at this point.
Trentrunner
What’s the over/under on whether Obama calls this “terrorism”?
Since AG Lynch didn’t use that term, I’m betting Obama also will not call it that.
Which it is.
Duke of Clay
@Chris: Twenty years sounds awfully optimistic.
JBL
Nikki Haley is not white. Her parents are Sikh immigrants from northern India; her maiden name is Nimrata Nikki Randhawa.
Chris
@Duke of Clay:
You’re right. And the original quote was twenty five years anyway. Still awfully optimistic.
VFX Lurker
@Betty Cracker: Thanks, Betty. I have it up on my computer monitor now.
JPL
@muddy: no
Chris
@Trentrunner:
I’ve heard it argued before that “hate crime,” far from being a specially punitive category for white people who kill nonwhite ones, was actually a watered-down kid-gloves version of what such things should by all rights be called, namely “terrorism.”
I find it hard to disagree.
JPL
Since he was captured in Shelby, I wonder if he was making his way to Murphy. There are a lot of good people, who might be willing to help him out.
MazeDancer
Both the Police Chief and the Mayor of Charleston, in the press conference, have called Roof a killer. Not alleged. Not “suspect”. Pinned the crime on him. Called him the killer. Said he did it.
Elected officials know better than to give room like that for Roof’s lawyer. If Haley does it, too, I’m going to think conspiracy.
Brachiator
@Tim F:
Bullshit. Don’t try to parse apartheid regimes into which is less racist.
scav
Unfathomable? There certainly are any number of news outlets and individuals diving down still further to drive home the point there is no bottom, no lower bound to their self-justification and repositioning of themselves as the only victims and targets.
NickM
I was wondering why the police said he had “distinctive plates” on the front of his car but didn’t describe them. Aren’t we all trying to catch a mass murderer? Wouldn’t that help?
Here’s why:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHyr5cUW8AAvoVW.jpg:large
If it doesn’t link, the NYT has it — confederate plate.
Way to hide the ball. A hate crime against Christians, huh?
Elizabelle
Nikki Haley is crying at a presser. People cannot go to church and feel safe. Kid you not. That is what she sobbed.
This is all getting cast as safety in a church. Religion, not race (TM).
Punchy
He appears to hate hair stylists, too.
Elizabelle
@NickM: It was so obscured on the NY Times website that I thought it was the palmetto and moon of the South Carolina flag.
Interesting. Very interesting.
Might it be the NYTimes and others didn’t put out car info and pic earlier because they knew shooter was armed and were worried about a shootout (it is the Carolinas) with pursuers?
MattF
@scav: I imagine the NRA will see itself itself as the victim. Never mind about the simple reality of a white racist killing blacks.
Napoleon
@NickM:
Because maybe they could not tell. The pictures that I saw had blurry front plates. They may have been able to see enough to tell they were not government license plates because they did not have big numbers and letters in the center of them, but not tell what was there otherwise.
muddy
@JPL: It wasn’t so much the hatefulness, which was to be expected, the quotes are not super disturbing in that way (at least not to me). It was the cognitive dissonance that gobsmacked me.
It was things such as, shooter had to be a liberal because conservatives don’t do like that. And that you couldn’t name when black people had been hurt by a conservative ever, and etc on these lines. I just ended up with my head on the side like a dog saying, Whaaaa?
There’s a pic of all the supposed liberal shooters, again, whaa? Surely, you think, this can’t be for real, someone is trolling. But I bet it is real because they are fucking nuts.
tesslibrarian
@Elizabelle: I’m guessing it wouldn’t have necessarily narrowed the search in SC. (lived there from 1982-1989, mom and in-laws still there. terrible place)
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
It would be awesome if we could have a discussion regarding racism as a mental illness, but we won’t.
And watching the attempts to whitewash this act of terrorism against the african american community sicken me.
This was an act of terror by a white supremist, full stop. The patches on the jacket say everything you need to know about the perpetrator in question.
As a black guy in a redneck state, yay,
Indiana, this shit os freaking me out a little bit…
…
Elizabelle
@Heliopause: Fox peeps keep saying “loner.” But I did not hear “lone wolf”, which is more appropriate.
How lone will come out in future days. Hope he left a massive trail of those he associated with. Investigate them.
Wag
this crime is not unfathomable. Given the hate projected by the RW media, the crime is completely fathomable.
Elizabelle
@muddy: They’re on Redstate because they are maroons (in the Bugs Bunny sense).
Someone should cache that. In the event any self-awareness attaches to anyone over there.
Roger Moore
What are the odds that he was a regular at Stormfront?
chopper
@Trentrunner:
so saying racist shit as he shoots a bunch of black folk, proudly displaying apartheid-era and confederate flags, yeah clearly he was only there to kill christians.
i wouldn’t be surprised if fox tries to paint him as a secret muslim.
Punchy
I wonder if his parents will be asked what it was like to raise the Roof.
NickM
It jumped out at me in the initial reporting that they said the plates were distinctive but didn’t say why. It seems, by calling the license plate “distinctive” without describing it accurately as a confederate plate, the spokesperson may have been putting a political agenda (not damaging the image of their blood-drenched state cause) before doing everything they possibly could to bring the suspect to justice, including identifying his vehicle as accurately as possible. I hope I’m wrong.
chopper
@MattF:
i’m sure also the MRAs are going to weigh in, pointing to his angry face in the picture as evidence that if only women were more forthcoming with teh secks he would never have done this.
it’s almost formulaic at this point. it’s like a top-40 station. it’s the same playlist every day.
muddy
@NickM: I can’t remember where it was now (maybe CA), or who he was shooting at, but recently there was some skinhead with nazi tattoos on his face and neck that cops managed to arrest without killing him, they somehow had a plain bag like a pillowcase (available on the spot?) to put over his head after they cuffed him and were putting him in the car. The news people said he was “heavily tattooed” and that was the end of that.
And poof, it’s like it didn’t even happen. I don’t see where they have to discreetly hide something that this guy was going around with visible in public. Same as this license plate. I hope this episode gets more notice.
“Don’t mention The War!”
chopper
@Punchy:
boo-urns.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Elizabelle:
The plate says confederate states of america with the flags of treason in the middle.
Zandar might want to add that pic to the post.
…
muddy
@Elizabelle: He does that feature weekly, I appreciate it because I certainly don’t want to go over and look.
Just Some Fuckhead
We need to let the justice system work. We don’t know why he massacred those people.
NickM
@Napoleon: You may be right.
JPL
After today, there will be no mention of this on Fox, unless they talk about it as an attack on religion.
How soon will the neighbors say it’s a nice christian family.
skyweaver
All I can hear when I read about this story is “post-racial America.”
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@chopper:
First near chuckle of the day. Top 40 radio is perfect!
…
Archon
@Just Some Fuckhead:
I don’t think you need Sherlock Holmes to figure out the motive here.
MattF
@Just Some Fuckhead: Those acoustic vibrations emerging from his larynx were just an artifact.
John
@Punchy: He looks like his hair was cut using a salad bowl as a guide. I hereby dub this douche The Salad Shooter.
Napoleon
@NickM:
Take the tinfoil off your head.
Chris
@Wag:
Pretty much. Right wing media relentlessly demonize and villify entire sections of the community (i.e. blacks – and many others), speak daily of the need for Second Amendment Remedies and of the need to treat guns as everyday tools that you should never leave the house without, and regularly turn people who shoot unarmed blacks into folk heroes (George Zimmerman being the most blatant, but by no means the only example). Of course shit like this is going to happen. You don’t even need to be a committed right winger (though this guy certainly was, even more than most); notions of black people being violent and dangerous and destroying the country and taking away your rights and plotting to kill you are the kind of thing any random crazy can pick up and act on just by osmosis.
Villago Delenda Est
@Librarian: No, it was an attack on “Christians”, according to the Faux Noise slime.
Stella B
@muddy: Robert Byrd joined the KKK, dontcha know and besides, before history ended in 1964, the racists were all members of the Democrat party.
I have just summarized the comments that will appear in various locations in response to articles about this event. Therefore, there is no need to read any additional comments and make yourself sick.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
same friend, apparently, John Mullins
RSA
@Heliopause:
There was mention of a bomb threat that prevented people from approaching the church right after the shootings. I wonder if that was Roof, or possibly an accomplice?
NickM
@Napoleon: I said you may be right. But it’s not unthinkable that the Charleston police would not want to highlight the fact that the guy was a Confederate douchebag while still wanting him apprehended, the same way Fox News wants to cover up the apparent motives for this crime while deploring it.
It’s not tinfoil, sometimes, it’s a bullshit shield.
Just Some Fuckhead
No one ever complains when black people kill white people.
The Thin Black Duke
What’s that old joke about “Denial just isn’t a river in Egypt”? Listening to the usual suspects cowardly attempting to whitewash this atrocity away would almost be funny if it wasn’t so goddamned pathetic.
Elizabelle
NYTimes Motherlode blog:
With Charleston Shooting, a Time to Stop Teaching Children About the ‘History’ of Racial Violence
Because it’s still with us. And let’s not pretend otherwise. We are overdue for an honest discussion.
Punchy
@John: After a few months in jail, he’ll be The Salad Tosser.
Elizabelle
Still watching Fox, and they’re still going with the religion aspect.
Clementa Pinckney, we’re told, was doing just what the Lord called him to do, from a young age.
She is speaking of his preaching. Not his Democratic politicking.
It’s war on Christians. And yes, this is Andrea Tantaros yawping.
SiubhanDuinne
Has President Obama actually made his comments yet? I’ve had the WH link up for half an hour and it still says “Beginning Shortly 11:45 AM ET”
And yes, I’ve refreshed it every couple of minutes.
scav
OT Rhyming. There’s probably going to be no good time today to bring this up, for multiple reasons, but it shouldn’t be lost. We’ve still got problems. All 50 US states fail to meet global police use of force standards, report finds
I rather wondered if they (police and local officialdom) didn’t release the details about the license plate because they don’t trust the local populace not to immediately riot — there seemed to be a lot of shoveling out of that fear/presumption/meme last night.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@The Thin Black Duke:
No kidding…I wish i could find some gallows humor.
…
Dolly Llama
He and Adam Lanza have the same haircut. The physical resemblance is a little unsettling, actually.
VFX Lurker
@SiubhanDuinne: Same here.
Looks like it’s on the air now, though.
Elizabelle
And on Fox: a judge on their panel is pointing at mental illness. They’d started discussing hate crimes.
No looking at racism. No sirreee …. Got to say, I did not listen very well, and may be mistating.
ETA: the judge: ” I would be looking to see if there was any evidence of racial animus ….”
He’s about to see some.
PBO up.
Elizabelle
Like that he mentioned that VP Biden also called the Charleston mayor this morning.
ETA: And Mother Emanuel. And its anti-slavery past.
Betty Cracker
PBO speaking now — Joe Biden is with him.
Keith P.
@John: Nice. The best I could come up with was “Peggy Flemming”.
Gin & Tonic
Guy’s dad gave him a .45 for his 21st birthday. What do you want to bet Dad gave him a political indoctrination, too? That kind of hate was learned somewhere.
Elizabelle
“I’ve had to make statements like this too many times.”
yippee — he ties it to guns!
“At some point we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this kind of violence does not happen in other advanced countries.
it does not happen with this kind of frequency.
And it is in our power to do something about it.
And at some point …(paraphrase) the American people will have to come to grips with it.”
Game on.
Paul in KY
@MazeDancer: Certainly will be a venue change.
JPL
The NRA is not going to be happy with the President.
Betty Cracker
Biden looks as sorrowful as I’ve ever seen him. PBO is saying he’s had to make statements like this too many times. Says it’s too easy to get guns and that we need to reckon with the fact that mass violence like this doesn’t happen as frequently in other developed countries.
Paul in KY
@Elizabelle: I would assume this little, murdering, scumbucket has probably read ‘The Tuner Diaries’.
Elizabelle
Even better than calling it home-grown terrorism.
Go after the gun violence aspect. That could be a huge rallying point for 2016 too. 90% of Americans favor background checks. The gun rights nuts are loud, too loud, but they’re not as numerous as they think. And they were never going to vote for a Demoncrat anyway.
Maybe PBO seethed all morning through Fox’s “could a gun have saved the day?” broadcasting?
Betty Cracker
PBO is talking about the anniversary of the B’ham bombing and the “vestiges of hate.” Quoting MLK.
Patricia Kayden
@muddy: No thanks. I’ll skip the racist justifications and double talk.
Glad that they caught this creep and hope that justice is swift.
Mike J
@Roger Moore:
What are the odds he was a regular at Hot Air or Free Republic?
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: Surmise for me…
different-church-lady
@Elizabelle:
Aww gee, Nikki, maybe people getting gunned down in a church is the thing it takes to get you to start thinking about this whole guns-everywhere concept.
Amir Khalid
@John:
I’ve always called that the Moe Howard cut.
The self-declared racist killer is white and his victims are black. Yet certain people are tiptoeing around the fact that it’s a racist hate killing and thus a terrorist act. When they insist on emphasising that the victims were Christians in a church, rather than a gathering of black people which was Roof’s own stated reason for choosing them, one gets the feeling that they were trying to tiptoe around something. Is it politically toxic in South Carolina to denounce the killing of black people? To admit that (some) white people are racist, even violently so?
Patricia Kayden
@MazeDancer: There’s at least one survivor from the shooting who can identify him as the killer. Don’t see the big deal about what the police or politicians are calling him.
Elizabelle
@JPL: The NRA is a cancer.
Make them hurt over the last part of the Obama term. They’ve flooded our society with guns, making it less civil.
They’ve flooded with so many guns, that our police are afraid for their own lives, and that’s driving a lot of the ugliness we’re seeing from them, even if they won’t admit it.
Make the NRA and the ammosexuals own this.
Elizabelle
The judge on Fox just said it’s too early to talk about gun control! You knew they would, but is this 2 minutes or 3?
He’s apparently a former police officer too.
Mike J
@Elizabelle:
If Americans didn’t care about a classroom full of white 6 year olds getting gunned down, why would you think they’re going to care when black people are the victims?
JPL
@Elizabelle: Are u still watching Fox?
Betty Cracker
I’m surprised but pleased that PBO made such a strong statement on the guns issues. He didn’t shy away from the racist terrorism angle either. Good for him.
bemused
@Elizabelle:
Even if they are focusing on mental illness, I’d be shocked if they will advocate for more funding for treatment, facilities with beds which are woefully lacking or any kind of meaningful support to those with mental illnesses and their families. I’d be interested in how they do address that but no doubt it be in a way that will make me tear my hair out.
SiubhanDuinne
@VFX Lurker:
Yup. Saw it. He’s angry and frustrated, and I don’t blame him. So glad he flat-out blamed it on easy availability of guns, and pointed out (what might be called “negative American exceptionalism”) that no other advanced country has gun violence with anything like the frequency the U.S. has.
And Joe looked so sad. I kept wanting to reach through my monitor and give him a big hug.
JPL
A child survived by playing dead. At what age should children now be taught to play dead in a school, church, shopping center or anywhere. Is three about the right age? Do you need to practice with ketchup and a play gun?
wtf is happening to us…
bemused
@different-church-lady:
When Nikki starts talking sensible gun laws, then I’ll take her sobbing seriously.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
That is a great compliment to the President.
“I welcome their hatred….”
Cacti
Will Governor Haley order the confederate flag on the Capitol grounds to be flown at half staff?
Elizabelle
@Mike J: Tipping point.
And maybe it’s taking the “war on religion” theme and deploying it against them. Make them realize that we need to be safe to go about our lives, and guns is not that route.
Elizabelle
@JPL: Yes. Because reality keeps slapping them in their faces today, and it’s been wonderfully entertaining fare.
It’s like they’re getting schooled in real time, although we know how hard the heads and how unlikely the actual schooling.
They’re now trying to blame this on drugs — opioids — and mental illness.
And we really have to do something about mental illness. The judge said that with a very sad face.
satby
@Mike J: Exactly.
Though not sure “don’t care” is right. Depressed and numb and not able to envision how to change things maybe.
VFX Lurker
@Elizabelle: I’m glad the President aimed a spotlight on guns, too.
@Betty Cracker: I also noticed the grief on Biden’s face. He recently lost his own son, and that was caused by cancer, not a gun. I wonder if he was thinking about the friends and families of the nine victims as much as the nine themselves.
JPL
@Cacti: No because most white supremacists are peaceful law abiding citizens.
Rex Tremendae
Guy’s dad gave him a .45 for his 21st birthday. What do you want to bet Dad gave him a political indoctrination, too? That kind of hate was learned somewhere.
And the uncle said the kid was a complete loner, no driver’s licence, never left his room. But he still needs a gun.
The Thin Black Duke
“The will of the people, in America, has always been at the mercy of an ignorance not merely phenomenal, but sacred, and sacredly cultivated: the better to be used by a carnivorous economy which democratically slaughters and victimizes whites and Blacks alike. But most white Americans do not dare admit this (though they suspect it) and this fact contains mortal danger for the Blacks and tragedy for the nation.
“Or, to put it another way, as long as white Americans take refuge in their whiteness—for so long as they are unable to walk out of this most monstrous of traps—they will allow millions of people to be slaughtered in their name, and will be manipulated into and surrender themselves to what they will think of—and justify—as a racial war. They will never, so long as their whiteness puts so sinister a distance between themselves and their own experience and the experience of others, feel themselves sufficiently human, sufficiently worthwhile, to become responsible for themselves, their leaders, their country, their children, or their fate. They will perish (as we once put it in our black church) in their sins —that is, in their delusions. And this is happening, needless to say, already, all around us. ”
–James Baldwin
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
Don’t you just love that 1 or 2 percent of the time when mostly-black-churches and the people in them suddenly become “Christian” in the eyes of Fox News?
I mean, the vast majority of the time, we’re told that they’re “social justice churches,” or “black nationalist churches,” which are therefore only pretending to be Christian but are really just communism in disguise. Or you’ve got President Obama, where they just decide that he’s not Christian altogether, he’s Muslim, because reasons.
But every now and then, they find a convenient (usually dead) black churchgoer that they’ll suddenly decide that they identify with. They still do this with MLK.
Bless their hearts.
TriassicSands
Amazing. Clarence Thomas joins the four “liberal” justices to rule that Texas may refuse to allow Confederate flag vanity license plates. Meanwhile, the four other conservatives continue to support white supremacy under the guise of free speech.
I was surprised to see Thomas vote that way. And surprised to see Texas want to bar Confederate vanity plates. Is that a shred of decency I see showing?
Meanwhile, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia all allow Confederate vanity plates. Shame on them.
The supporters of the “flag” claim that it represents sacrifice. If it does, it is sacrifice in the name of some of the most deplorable acts human beings are capable of inflicting on others. The Confederate flag represents sacrifice in the same way the Nazi flag represents sacrifice. It should disappear from public view forever.
Elizabelle
Fox peeps are saying “We will all move on soon.”
There is no good time to talk about gun control.
Although some people try to be ugly and nasty and all divisive about it.
And more talking about mental illness.
There: “the biggest issue here is not guns. It is mental illness.”
No racism behind this tree, so sirree.
We might need a transcript of Fox for cocktail hour.
These peeps are such low hanging fruit they’re not off the ground.
pseudonymous in nc
Where the fuck do you buy patches for Ian Smith-era Rhodesia?
And this isn’t simply ‘domestic terrorism’ or a hate crime: this is the most American act of criminal violence, a deep-rooted pure product of America.
Duke of Clay
@Elizabelle: I peeked over at Fox this morning, and they were talking about how this indicated that men in church needed to arm themselves so they could protect the women and children when these kinds of attacks occur. Even found a black pastor to say it for them. Of course, as soon as black deacons arm themselves they will be thugs and “no angels” on Fox.
VFX Lurker
@SiubhanDuinne:
President Obama’s message and delivery were spot-on.
I also wanted to give Biden a hug. He just looked shattered.
Chris
@JPL:
In sharp contrast to the last decade or so :D :D :D
Elizabelle
Now they’re calling PBO “opportunistic” to bring up gun control so quickly.
Unsporting of him.
Judge points out it was just a handgun. Are we saying people should not have handguns?
SiubhanDuinne
The Charleston Post & Courier today has an advertising sticker right up top advertising a gun sale.
Archon
@Mike J:
Americans cared but the link between public opinion and public policy is completely broken, especially at the Federal level.
JPL
@TriassicSands: I’m glad that the ruling was released today.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
I’m prepared to say just that.
Elizabelle
Fox female non-blonde: “The President got us here. With his comments.” Stand by for more programming.
Nope. Had enough. But they see their out — he really does want to take our guns!
That’s even more thrilling programming than “they’re shooting Christians in church.”
ms_canadada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owxRpV7l8Dc
Brachiator
@Elizabelle:
Somewhat mis-stated, but his other points are valid.
@Mike J
Sadly, they will not.
C.V. Danes
@muddy:
O.M.G.
Some people are seriously off their meds over there.
JPL
@Elizabelle: haha…
If only the children were armed, this would not have happened.
SatanicPanic
Every now and then America gets a reminder of the fact that some of us are terrible people. If it were just the shooter, that would be one thing. But it’s not.
Chris
@pseudonymous in nc:
“After all, the Ku Klux Klan is an old American institution.”
– HUAC, justifying their decision not to open investigations into the Ku Klux Klan, 1946.
SiubhanDuinne
@VFX Lurker:
Note-perfect.
Shame, that whole thing about “practice makes perfect.” Because he’s right, he has had to make these kinds of statements after these kinds of events far too many times.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: I would want a gun if I did not think the police could get there fast enough. If I traveled long distances alone.
But I would want to apply for it, register, be checked out thoroughly — and at some length, and certify I can handle it safely and store it adequately. I would not need to pimp it out and display it in coffee shops.
We need Switzerland-style gun laws. And to get the massive number out there out of society. Because they don’t make for civil society. Just armed, and tearing at the fabric of society.
Elizabelle
Fox is asking, re the arrest of young shooter Roof: “Do we need the Feds to get involved? Really?”
Purely obfuscating.
But I wonder if some of their audience sees through them. They are so blatant.
I think Fox World is going to be in a world of hurt, in between change of ownership from within and sane Americans having had too much of too much guns and not enough healthcare and jobs without.
Poopyman
Gonna be hard to get around that big bold type on cnn.com
Josie
I kept thinking, while watching the police chief, mayor and governor express satisfaction that the suspect had been caught, that the young man didn’t come up with his attitude in a vacuum. Maybe there were not others directly involved in the act, but there are others close by who carry similar hatred. I’m not so sure this is over. I hope the federal investigators look into his associations very carefully.
Elizabelle
Fox tells us “Ben Carson says the racial part is not necessarily the part we should be concentrating on.”
But wait until after the commercial break.
Ridnik Chrome
@Villago Delenda Est: Black people should boycott Fox over this crap. Seriously, all of them. The next time Fox Sports wants to interview Le Bron James, he should tell them to stick their microphone where the sun never shines. And every other black celebrity should follow suit. Sick of this garbage…
Duke of Clay
@TriassicSands: It’s odd how this symbol of “heritage not hate” became ubiquitous during the civil rights movement. That damn rag flew at every KKK rally and was hung at every White Citizens Council meeting.
Kappa Alpha at Memphis State had a mammoth Confederate flag that covered the entire front of their house. They pulled it out and mounted it in front of their house as soon as word came that MLK had been shot. Odd how their need express their heritage should arise at that very instant.
Elizabelle
And now the whooping cough advertisement: the CDC warns of the danger, and “understand the danger your new grandchild faces.”
The one good thing I have seen all morning on Fox, and have seen it twice now.
JPL
@Elizabelle: Do we need to chip in and buy you a case of wine? My TV would be shattered, if I listened to that garbage.
We do appreciate the updates though.
Archon
@Ridnik Chrome:
Obama tried to blackball Fox News early in his Presidency but the rest of the press instead of honestly acknowledging that Fox is a propaganda outlet got their panties caught in a bunch so he had to back down.
Cacti
@Josie:
Pardon me if I call “crocodile tears” on a Governor who defends her state’s practice of flying a known white supremacist icon on the Capitol grounds, and has Confederate Memorial Day as an official holiday.
MazeDancer
@Patricia Kayden:
Laws are laws. Innocent until proven guilty. That’s why it’s “alleged” until verdict day, so no defense attorney can argue that officials created some foul. And why
@Paul in KY:
cosima
If it hasn’t already been floated on some loathsome RW site, my prediction is they will soon say that this is an inside job by the President, NAACP, etc to drive up non-white voting numbers.
This made me cry. For the families, for the community, for the country. And also to give thanks that we are living in the relatively gun-free UK.
Cacti
@Archon:
Yep.
Fox is Jake Tapper’s “sister network”.
Elizabelle
@JPL: I know. It’s been hard to tear away, because you can make out the outlines of what’s really happening, and you have them flapping their mouths in the wind.
They’re looking for any port in a storm, and keep finding themselves further from shore with each breaking development. You could package today’s Fox daytime programming as a DVD. It’s been that hysterically funny (albeit, over a genuine tragedy).
Ben Carson’s great concern: We are becoming less tolerant of each other.
Listen to Ben Carson.
Fox woman: “Don’t go to divisive dark political places.”
You can see, in real time, they know this is bad and they are trying so hard to get out in front of it, but all their attempts keep turning into millstones before the next show begins. It’s funny and fascinating.
Elizabelle
I mean “divisive and dark.” And they’re discussing the President and Ben Carson. And dead African Americans. They cannot help themselves.
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
Now you’re just trolling us.
Patricia Kayden
@Elizabelle: How long are you going to torture yourself by watching marathon hours of Fox News? Free yourself and watch MSNBC or something else entirely. Unless this is some self-inflicted experiment on how long you can watch foolishness without losing your mind. If so, carry on.
Just joking, btw. I never watch Fox News except for Election nights when the Democrats are doing well. I love to see when they’re forced to admit that they’ve lost.
Keith G
I am a bit more comfortable than many here seem to be about the chances for this horrific story being reported truthfully and having an impact that eventually moves towards the positive as more people consider this terrible crime….if we get help from our leadership.
Like it or not, a lot depends on the behavior of opinion leaders to keep the story focused on the truthful narrative of this obvious hate crime. I think that we on the left tend to forget how much effort the right side puts on maintaining narratives favorable to their points of view. To me it seems that we tend to speak a clearly obvious truth once and then think as if our duty is complete.That is never enough.
This morning President Obama gave us a very important first step in dealing with this. And it will need to be only a first step which is built on by Obama and many of our other leaders for it to have the type of impact we need.
MazeDancer
Let’s support the trend to not use Dylann Roof’s middle name. The Charleston Police Chief didn’t.
“Storm” is offering free publicity for hate groups. Dylann did not hide his identity, or his motive, or his car, who knows who encouraged him to do this, directly or indirectly, but it was meant to be very public. No reason to reward that.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: Code for, she was their token African American of the hour. Beautiful woman.
@Patricia Kayden: Humane advice. But it’s so fun to watch them spin and sink.
Elizabelle
@MazeDancer: Do we know if “Storm” was the birth name, or could he have legally changed it? Haven’t been following anything but FNC and you guys today.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
F@JPL:
She’s earned one for sure, ida gone full elvis by now. Not exactly true, after five minutes, if that.
Thanks for the service, it is apreciated.
..,
shell
Jesus, that photograph. If the word ‘sociopath’ needs a picture to illustrate it in the dictionary, just use his photo.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Elizabelle:
Once again thanks, have been followong your updates all morning.
…
Elizabelle
Fox is starting to drop its pretenses.
Fox redhead, pleading with her audience: “I know it looks like the motive is obvious, and this is being called a “hate crime”, but we need to wait for the facts.”
Patricia Kayden
@Elizabelle: God forbid that it was a Muslim shooter because then we would be jumping to conclusions and going to “dark political places” in a hurry. Fox News is just trying to protect the shooter because he’s White (and probably identifies as a Christian).
Ridnik Chrome
@Archon: Obama is the president, so he sort of has to talk to Fox. But there’s no reason why any other black person who isn’t an elected official should…
Elizabelle
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: I have NEVER watched as much Fox in my life. Never. They usually drive me off through smugness and ugliness. I’ve never lasted more than 2 minutes; never even commercial to commercial.
But events have been happening so fast today, and not going their way, and it has been fascinating to watch the trial balloons they throw up, that run out of helium before a half hour passes.
They’re talking about opioids again.
Elizabelle
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: PS: I am glad to see you here.
Tonight, we won’t be laughing at Fox. We will know more about the nine people dead before their time. Such a loss.
But maybe their deaths — in a church, at the hands of a very young white guy with a gun — are THE tipping point.
Elliot J
@Cacti:
A DKos commentator this morning referred to the Confederate flag as “the Dixie Swastika”. And as over the top as DKos can get sometimes, I think this notion is spot-on. And maybe if more people started calling it that, there would be more shame attached to this “heritage” notion. But I ain’t holding my breath.
JPL
@Elizabelle: Ben Carson can fall off a cliff and I wouldn’t miss him.
He thinks he deserved government aid but now a days, just the lazy and shiftless get help. All I could think, he wants to line up people and decide who gets help.
Gin & Tonic
@Elizabelle: Sorry, but if 20-plus first-graders were not a tipping point, there won’t ever be one.
JPL
@Elizabelle: One was an educator and track coach. That’s all I heard so far.
Lavocat
Weird, disheveled look? Check.
Crazy-eyes? Check.
Totally batshit cause? Check.
Creepy Facebook photo w/ middle-o’-nowhere swamp backdrop? Check.
Okay, then, here’s your weapon and ammo and go have fun.
What could possibly go wrong?
bemused
I want to know what exactly Nikki Haley believes the “heart and soul” of SC is and has now been broken. They fly the confederate flag at the capitol, legalize aggressive voter suppression, have 19 known hate groups in the state, etc, etc.
Howlin Wolfe
@Chris: And the so-called liberal media mainstreams this shit by taking the RW media seriously as the voice of Real ‘murkins.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Elizabelle:
Seriously appreciate the effort. I would occasionally do the same at atrios place back in the day, but now would have to aedopus on myself and elvis on the teebee…obviously not in that order.
Youi have been killing it.
Thanks again!
And hugs.
:-)
Cacti
@bemused:
The heart and soul of South Carolina is unreconstructed confederate white supremacy.
Elizabelle
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Hugs back.
And I would not mind a case of wine! But, privacy.
TriassicSands
@Duke of Clay:
And how could anyone interpret the Confederate rag as anything but a symbol of pride? What we need is for all Americans who despise that flag and what it stands for to openly show disgust for it whenever and wherever it appears. The haters must be ostracized for their hatred and the ludicrous idea that the Confederate flag represents anything positive should be forcefully repudiated whenever and wherever someone tries to make that claim. Friends should tell friends; neighbors should tell neighbors; the flag is a symbol of hatred and white supremacy and it has no place in a civilized society, just as slavery has no place in a civilized society.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Elizabelle:
I have to say my inner cynic doubts it, but we can dream.
The battle between my cynical versus hopeful nature, still rages, and this i think is a good thing.
:-)
bemused
@Cacti:
I’d like to hear how she would articulate her sense of SC’s heart and soul because I can’t imagine what she would say.
Betty Cracker
@Gin & Tonic: I think you’re right that this incident won’t be the tipping point, but I’m not sure there will never be one. It would have to be something an order of magnitude more horrific and scarring than any mass shootings we’ve seen so far, but maybe something like a deranged pair with multiple 100-round drums and Bushmasters mowing down an entire elementary school-full of children or wiping out all the residents of a small town would move the needle on background checks, prompt consideration of magazine size limits, close the gun show loophole or some other incremental, small-ball action. Still, glad the president raised the issue.
Lavocat
@Gin & Tonic: Agreed. We became a much more savage society after that. Such a disposable society, where everything is sacrificed on the altar of the Second Amendment.
piratedan
@Elizabelle: well the GOP has a plan for mental health, essentially to end it.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Elliot J:
Dixie swastica…brilliant.
Also saw a suggestion to rainbow the confederate flag, an idea i also like.
Cafe press?
..,
Villago Delenda Est
@JPL: The NRA is a terrorist organization. Fuck them.
bemused
@Elizabelle:
I’ve been enjoying your Fox play-by-play too but I don’t suppose you’d want to do this regularly. That would classify as inhumane.
Cacti
@bemused:
I find her sorrow about as sincere as George Wallace’s, following the Birmingham church bombing a generation ago.
You don’t get to celebrate white supremacist “heritage” and then get to act shocked when an act of white supremacist violence is carried out in real time.
Belafon
@Elizabelle: And someone in the comments put up the “But he has black friends on facebook” defense.
MazeDancer
@Elizabelle:
Unknown if any middle name at all on Roof’s birth certificate, but several media outlets are using “Dylann Roof” with no middle name on Twitter. And don’t think that is just to save characters.
If Fox insists on using it, then we’ll know it’s propaganda, but won’t know if given from birth or added when he joined some group.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™:
I replied to you in the thread below — short version, it’s not uncommon for terrorists to exploit mentally ill people to do their dirty work, but it’s hard to make that connection in the American media when we’re not allowed to point out that white supremacist terrorism is terrorism.
Elizabelle
@bemused: True. They’ll get back on their game, and all the lies and smirking. But today’s events were too awful and too real and they had to deal with it in real time. So it was interesting.
wrb
His trauma was being named after a leftist Jewish folk singer. This is what liberalism begets
SiubhanDuinne
@Elizabelle:
And in fact, I agree with you. But jokers like that Fox judge with their straw men and absolutism always make me want to punch back with something just as arbitrary, which is what I was doing.
bemused
@Cacti:
Oh yeah. Her tears didn’t move me at all, disgusted me and pissed me off.
hilts
“The Charleston Post and Courier has called it a “regrettable coincidence.” But to some gun-control advocates, it may in fact seem fitting. On its front page Thursday morning, The Post and Courier ran a full-page story about Wednesday night’s shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, that killed nine people. And right above the headline reading “Church attack kills 9,” some readers found a sticker advertising “Ladies’ Night” at the ATP Gun Shop & Range in Summerville, South Carolina. “$30 gets you everything!” the ad reads — including a pistol or a revolver and 50 rounds of ammunition, as well as eye and ear protection.”
h/t http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/gun-ad-charleston-shooting_n_7613580.html?utm_hp_ref=media
Patricia Kayden
@Cacti: You do if you’re a Rightwinger in a state whose electorate is mostly Rightwing. Haley knows her people.
Cacti
I’ll also put this tragedy out there as the latest exhibit of why not every issue in this country is one of class or economics, and to suggest so is hopelessly naive.
bemused
@Elizabelle:
You picked a perfect day to watch when they were clearly flailing in the face of reality. It kind of reminds me of Karl Rove’s panicked shock on Fox when Romney lost. I’ve tried on occasion to watch Fox for a bit but I only can watch that farce for a few minutes.
ruemara
@Punchy: Ha. Yeah, we really needed a joke in this thread. No, I’m sure it couldn’t fucking wait to make jokes.
Elizabelle
@Betty Cracker:
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™:
I would think there has to be a tipping point at some time. Betty’s apocalyptic vision is like a video game from hell, and I hope we get our tipping point, and action that makes us safer, before that devolves.
Am thinking that if we do manage to get the Second Amendment and guns issue back under serious discussion, it may take our lifetimes to have it play out.
But we’d be so much safer with Swiss style firearms regulations. And the Founding Fathers were not trying to gift us with a Mad Max society.
The gun rights types are pretty much creeps, and one issue types, but there are more of us. Bring back “we the people” and make sure government works for we.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
Thanks for the reply. Got deadtheaded and headed up here. Also on a fone so not exacly ideal.
Just trying to process this latest in a long line of shit. At least i have stopped shaking.
…
Kerry Reid
Does Howard Dean still want to do outreach to the guys with the Confederate flags on their trucks?
Not a joke. I seriously want some of the “we need to reach these guys!” cheerleaders to explain just how we do that without further feeding their fatal levels of racial animosity.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Amir Khalid:
I’m thinking along those lines, too. Is the right wing claiming this was “anti-Christian” violence not only their usual MO of claiming victimhood, but also a dogwhistle to let their viewers know that this particular group of Black people are OK to sympathize with (Good Ones), unlike the rest of Them?
Trollhattan
@Elizabelle:
If this was “War on Religion(tm)” then Scott Roeder killing George Tiller in church was an earlier battle in the War on Religion.
How long before Frank Luntz directs Fox to pivot to blaming video games?
Archon
@Elliot J:
Most German soldiers fought under the Nazi flag because they had no choice or did it for things like ethnic nationalism, notions that are pretty common around the world.
Now who and what you fight for matters so they are not absolved but what were the excuses of those Confederates that had a choice (almost everyone did the first year) and still committed treason?
Nothing in human history is worse then the Holocaust but I give the average German soldier fighting under the swastika more of a pass then I do Johnny Reb.
Pee Cee
@Lavocat:
Most likely, Congaree National Park ( http://www.nps.gov/cong/index.htm ). Which is right outside Columbia, where the terrorist was from.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti: I think that the issues of race and class are inevitably intertwined, and have been since the planter class first made the distinction to keep the indentured divided against each other instead of the united against the planters.
Elizabelle
Fox just got to the first mention of the Pope’s encyclical that I’ve noticed. I never heard the word “fossil fuels.” The Manhattan Institute talking head worries that leftists will be “using” the Pope on this issue.
Over. They pretty much whitewashed what the Pope said, pretty much talked about his calling out the wealthy nations for being piggish (my word; forget theirs). You know, the Pope. That commie. Chyron said “Revolution needed.”
Never got out what the NYTimes packed into its first 3 paragraphs on the story. Ah well.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Elizabelle:
Agree.
Though i fear that “we the people” has perished from the earth.
But i still have hope.
…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Kerry Reid:
I thought it was Jim Webb who thought we should be reaching around for these real merkins.
…
Chris
@Mnemosyne (iPhone):
It’s them taking an action so blatant that they know even they won’t be able to spin it in a way that makes the white guy look good – so instead, they’re reshuffling the criteria so that instead of a white supremacist targeting blacks, this is a crime about an… atheist supremacist? Secularist supremacist? Or something, targeting Christians.
Same basic logic as Jonah Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” or the old canard “Robert Byrd was in the KKK.”
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti: Which is why Jake Tapper’s name is written in indelible ink on the tumbrel manifest.
Elizabelle
@Trollhattan: You know, video games did get mentioned, but not as a threat. Yet.
Fox reported that a woman who knows the shooter thinks he’s a really nice young man, good manners, and he has been over playing Xbox video games with her son.
I wondered what games. He’s apparently a deadly accurate shooter. (Although how accurate need you be, in close quarters and up against unarmed people who are trying to reason with you?)
rikyrah
About the victims
People who were about something.
About something positive.
Making positive contributions for our community.
sigh.
Mike in NC
@bemused: After the school massacre in Connecticut, Governor Nikki Haley was eager for gun manufacturers (including those making assault rifles) to move down to SC to add a handful of low wage jobs.
SC is the only state I know of that actually has a “tax free” day for people to stock up on their guns and ammo.
Cacti
Given Bernie Sanders’ legislative history of voting against mandatory background checks, waiting periods, and gun manufacturer liability, the timing of his first visit to South Carolina has the potential to be excruciatingly awkward.
Also too, does Howard Dean still think the Dems should be the party of guys with confederate flags on their pickup trucks?
shell
So many of these sociopaths don’t get captured alive. Either shot by the cops or shoot themselves. Wonder if we’ll be getting more of his motive from his own lips, and what’s influenced him. RW radio, anyone?
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@rikyrah:
and what chills my blood is that he hung out with his intended victims for some time before slaughtering them.
Is it time to set up a gofundme watch?
…
Betty Cracker
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Here’s what Dean said in 2003:
He apologized for it later, but it will follow him to his grave like “Hanoi Jane” will dog Jane Fonda into the Great Beyond.
Duke of Clay
@TriassicSands: Hear, hear!
Trollhattan
@Elizabelle:
This guy’s pictures sure throw Adam Lanza vibes at me. Like others, I want to know his associations and his past WRT mental and psychological care and interventions. Who sits peacefully with a Bible study group then up and murders after an hour? Decent people want to know but ultimately cannot know, because core humanity doesn’t allow for such.
Mnemosyne (iPhone)
@Betty Cracker:
I’m not sure the tipping point will need to be that dramatic, though. Sometimes the huge, dramatic events suck up so much psychic energy that people can’t process them. I think tipping points are more likely to be the straws that broke the camel’s back. But I may be overly optimistic.
Elizabelle
I hope the BJ southern contingent keeps us informed on whether you see fewer Stars and Bars in the coming weeks. It could happen.
Maybe Shooter Roof has made them radioactive.
Suzanne
My boss just said they were targeted because they were Christians. Aaaaarrrrgggh.
Weird side note: does this asshole look like Ramsay Bolton to anyone else?
Kerry Reid
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Dean said it in 2003.
And Dean also opposed the “Ground Zero Mosque,” fwiw. Democracy for SOME of America!
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@shell:
RW Radio, fox news, and if they are smart a host of websites furiously attempting to scrub their sites of any evidence that he was one of theirs.
He’ll be taken care of in prison of course.
…
Kerry Reid
And I wish I could concur with the headline on this post, but it’s entirely fathomable. It always has been. It’s who we are and it’s baked into the DNA of our nation. I hope that the tide is beginning to turn on criminal-justice reform, drug-law reform, etc. But hate is big business for too many in media and politics, and business is good.
Elizabelle
@rikyrah: Clementa Pinckney was a loss. Sounds like a wonderful man.
You could hear the affection and respect in his GOP colleague’s voices today, as they were interviewed on Fox.
Am sure the church and his friends and family saw an even better side.
Pee Cee
@Elizabelle:
They’ll have to publicize the racist aspect of it a lot more than I’ve heard so far for it to have any impact. This is actually a bit more likely since they caught Roof alive, and we’ll hear him explain his own motives.
I will say this, though. For today, at least, no one wore a confederate flag-bearing t-shirt to class.
JPL
@Elizabelle: I knew that one was coming. Is he a good christian?
I think Fox is showing great restraint by not blaming the victims yet.
Cacti
@Elizabelle:
Not likely.
I’d say there will be a doubling down on the “heritage not hate” nonsense, while failing to identify any worthwhile or positive heritage associated with the Dixie swastika.
Elizabelle
@Elizabelle: I meant less Confederate flag regalia.
I guess the famous image is the Southern Cross; I’d called it the Stars and Bars. My bad.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Kerry Reid:
Thanks. That shit flew under my radar, Webb was the most recent to make that point though.
…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Betty Cracker:
Thanks as well, that jostled my memory.
By the way i have a copy of that florida map you made a number of years ago on one of my drives. Cravks me up every time i find it.
Been meaning to do a similar one for Indiana.
:-)
Trollhattan
Apologies if this was mentioned earlier, but the shooter has a record.
Also, the pastor had recently been a strong advocate for police body cameras, as well as being acquainted with the president, which could explain how the shooter chose that church.
scav
@Suzanne: So, your boss buys into the underlying problem as phrased by the shooter — a white guy sporting white supremacist signs — that Christians “rape our women …[are] taking over our country and … have to go.”? Rhodesia was all about keeping those rape-happy white Christians down.
Betty Cracker
@Elizabelle: I won’t hold my breath. If the effort to associate the Confederate flag with this latest incident of domestic terrorism gathers any steam outside a few lefty blogs (which I seriously doubt), the flag-flyers will start whining about how libtards who tell them not to associate Middle Eastern terrorists with Islam are hypocrites.
SiubhanDuinne
If y’all haven’t dropped by Pierce’s joint yet today, I urge you to do so.
http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35793/charleston-shooting-discussion/
He is really at the top of his game, always, when there’s a major national tragedy (although I also adore his snarkitude most of the time).
Betty Cracker
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Glad you found it useful! We should try to get a person from every state to do one. It would probably more accurate than any map Chuck Todd uses.
Elizabelle
Not liking this Fox blonde Heather something. She seems mean. Getting bored with Fox. Got stuff to do …
JPL
There’s a bomb threat where the service is being held.
It’s all clear now…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Kerry Reid:
I think the use of unfathomable was ironic in this case. Zandar is an African american, correct?
If so, none of us who see anything like this would use the word literaly.
…
…
Ridnik Chrome
@Suzanne: Anybody who says this was motivated by anything other than good old American racism should be punched in the face. Repeatedly.
Elizabelle
@SiubhanDuinne: Thank you. Saved it for reading later.
Chris
@Cacti:
Yeah. As was pointed out by another Balloon Juicer a few months ago, Southerners flying the Confederate flag and claiming that it’s “heritage” are selecting one, ridiculously small (four years) section out of a heritage that goes back, like, 500 years (if you’re not counting precolonial). They’re intentionally using a very specific and politically charged item out of a fairly broad culture and long-running history, so let’s not pretend that it’s just a generic “I love my region.” Fried twinkies are Heritage Not Hate. Calling it “coke” instead of pop or soda is Heritage Not Hate. Confederate flags are not.
The fact that half the people who fly, wear, or decorate their car with Confederate flags aren’t even Southerners is just icing on the cake.
Cacti
@Archon:
That’s more true for members of the Wermacht.
Germans and foreigners belonging to the Waffen SS were wholesale adherents of Nazi ideology.
Mike in NC
I’m reading a book on the Boer Wars and it’s uncanny how much the Boers resemble contemporary American conservatives, loving their Calvinist religious beliefs as much as their guns. British POWs were generally treated decently, whereas black African guides and interpreters were shot out of hand.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Betty Cracker:
We should!
Picturing a big slice of the northwestern part of the state as east chicago, the vast swath in the central part northern alatucky, or missitucky, my hometown liberal Satan…
It is was helpful, and i love to laugh, so once again, thanks.
:-)
Kerry Reid
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: I think Webb is more serious about it. He’s Albion’s Bad Seed.
Death Panel Truck
@Elizabelle:
“He was always such a good boy.” — Louise Bundy.
Cacti
@Chris:
This.
Stock car racing is heritage not hate. College football and basketball is heritage not hate. Pulled pork BBQ and baby back ribs are heritage not hate. Whiskey is heritage not hate. Jazz, blues, and rock and roll are heritage not hate. Coke and Pepsi are heritage not hate.
A flag associated with insurrection in defense of slavery, and anti-civil rights is hateful heritage.
Kerry Reid
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Zandar is African American, but this is TimF’s post. I don’t know his background, and it’s quite possible he was being tragic/ironic in the headline.
But you know, we should all just really shut up and stop EXPLOITING this horrible tragedy. Fox News said that! (I don’t know if they actually did, but I’m sure they will.)
fuckwit
That’s it. I’m now on board with the black folks who have been saying that the main problem with this country isn’t capitalist economics, it’s racism.
Too much right-wing policy in this country (ever since Lee Atwater’s “abstract” days and the Southern Strategy) uses capitalist economics as a cover for racism, and indeed capitalism is a huge problem, but I now think capitalism is the tail and racism is the dog. We have to deal with this.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Elizabelle:
You have done more than enough. Imma gonna save the threads for posterity and as source material when I write my piece on this in a day or two at my place.
You were awesome, we will write songs, or i will at least!
Your coverage helped bring me back down.
xoxo
…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Ridnik Chrome:
Agreed, however i am an advocate for tripping, easier to get away with, and if done properly, results in a faceplant.
…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
It occurs to me that i need to ask random white people why he did it and if all of them dream of being that guy, just like they asked Obama what Harry Belefonte was on about…
Turnabout, fair play, is she not?
…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Kerry Reid:
Not only that, but made the case this very year.
…
Kerry Reid
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: Indeed. Also, I wonder where the WHITE LEADERS are who are condemning all the cyclical violence and spree killings committed by young white men in this country. Is country music to blame? That one country singer DID just die in a violent shoot-out with a bounty hunter. What is it about the southern culture that turns so many young white men into soulless monsters?
Trollhattan
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™:
One out of four will respond, “I wonder what happened to the poor gun? I hope it’s okay.”
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Kerry Reid:
Oh shitshakes, someone in the other thread said zandar had a new one up.
took it on faith.
I do still believe the title was ironic, but reading through my own lense.
…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@fuckwit:
Agreed. Race and class are inextricably intertwined, but our countries original sin drives the others, as does the stain of misogeny, the true original sin.
Im with the ladies fighting the patriarchy.
…
Villago Delenda Est
The Confederate battle flag is the cross with stars. The “Stars and Bars” is the CSA national flag. The battle flag was adopted to be more distinctive from the Stars and Stripes on the field of battle than the Stars and Bars was.
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Trollhattan:
This got my first lol of the day, thanks.
:-)
…
Betty Cracker
@fuckwit: I wonder about that a lot, but I’m still inclined to think racism is the monstrous tool of the greedheads rather than vice versa. That doesn’t make anyone less dead or oppressed, of course. But the same IGMFY philosophy that is a cornerstone of American conservative thought has been expressed throughout history in more homogeneous societies.
Villago Delenda Est
@Cacti: It was a requirement to be in the SS, for all intents and purposes.
The Waffen SS was never incorporated into the Wehrmacht. It was essentially a fourth branch of the armed forces, independent of the Heer.
Villago Delenda Est
@Death Panel Truck: “They’re good boys” — Barbara Bush
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Villago Delenda Est:
This comports with my memory as well, though it seems that there was also a third flag as there are three shown on the kids license plate saying confederate states of amercia.
Vanity plate actually, as in indiana it seems only the rear bumper of the car requires a tag.
…
Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™
@Betty Cracker:
And in most cases those homogenous societies had baked in class divisions that served the same purpose. The caste system in India comes to mind and the fuedal system in europe…etc
…
Patricia Kayden
@Elizabelle: I’m in Southern Maryland and see the confederate flag on trucks and t-shirts every so often. I live in a 40% minority city so that may explain its rare sightings. Remember that those who support the confederate flag try to argue that it’s about heritage and not hate, so I doubt they’ll link it to racists like Roof.
schrodinger's cat
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: India is not a homogenous society by any definition of the term. It is in fact one of the most diverse societies in the world. There are major religious differences and linguistic differences, in addition to the caste differences and differences based on appearance.
Paul in KY
@Elizabelle: You sure are a trooper!
Paul in KY
@Elliot J: I’m gonna start calling it that.
Paul in KY
@wrb: Or maybe it was a drunken Irish poet ;-)
Marcion
@Chris:
I’ve never understood why non-Southerners like to wear the Confederate Flag. First time I saw someone with one after I moved to Chicago I almost chewed them out. I’m born and raised in Texas so I ‘get’ why Southerners do it, even if it’s stupid and offensive, but people whose grandparents were shooting at the people flying that flag? WTF
Suzanne
@Ridnik Chrome: word. However, he is my boss. However, I did school him and he listened, so maybe there’s that.
Paul in KY
@Suzanne: In the eyes and lips, I think.
Paul in KY
@scav: You just have to laugh at any dumbass that says that.
Villago Delenda Est
@Marcion: When the Confederate battle flag was deliberately and with malice aforethought adopted as the symbol of opposing desegregation, it became, indelibly, a signifier of racism.
That’s why it’s popular with some outside the South. They’re letting their freak flag fly.
Paul in KY
@Death Panel Truck: Which was a lie by Mrs. Bundy. Ted had been doing weird things since he was 3.
Elizabelle
@Patricia Kayden: We must do a meetup soon, for our DC VA and MD folks, and you must come.
Are you close enough to make it into DC, or maybe we do a Southern MD event?
Would love to meet elmo and several other Marylanders ….
Mike in NC
@Marcion: George Allen, the obnoxious former governor of Virginia, wore the Stars & Bars as a lapel pin growing up in California. He claimed it showed he was a rebel (and a jerkoff).
Elizabelle
@Death Panel Truck: Was reading a NY Daily News article on the shooter, that he’d told his friends recently he was planning to shoot up the College of Charleston, but they didn’t take him seriously because he was so deadpan. The friend interviewed was a young black man.
And yeah, re Louise Bundy. And other history’s monsters have liked dogs…
Betty Cracker
@Provider_UNE_AndPlayersToBeHatedLater™: In homogenous societies, class distinctions were definitely created out of whole cloth to consolidate power among the few for sure, but doesn’t that support the theory that it’s all about economics at its core rather than refute it? That was my original point.
Incitatus for Senate
@MazeDancer: So, lets hide evidence that his parents are white supremacists? Why?
I’d prefer to give racists lots of exposure. It’s the political right thats trying to pretend racism doesn’t exist.
Iowa Old Lady
Timothy McVeigh and the OK City bombing created a tipping point in an earlier wave of anti-government sentiment. It feels like it will take something far worse this time. I don’t know. If Sandy Hook didn’t do it, I despair.
Chris
@Betty Cracker:
Does it have to be one or the other, one using the other? Can’t you just as easily say that it’s both/and, an alliance between two things that are stronger together than they would be separately?
Besides, the two things are just entwined to a crazy extent. The old Southern gentry certainly used race to divide the public, but just because they used race as a tool doesn’t mean they weren’t also racist as hell themselves. Ditto the WASP establishment in the rest of the country. The KKK terrorized union members as joyfully as civil rights marchers. Etc.
Chris
@Marcion:
I’d say precisely because it’s not really a Southern flag – it’s a generic flag for all white nationalists who feel aggrieved by a government that favors black people too much. At least all American white nationalists.
boatboy_srq
@MazeDancer: Speaking as someone who knows someone who goes by Storm (one of his given names), who’s nothing like the a##h0le in SC, that’s a bit of a reach. If his last name were FRONT, that would be different. Storm by itself just says his parents were disinclined to Michael (or Lee, Davis,Calhoun, Pettus or something similarly immediately identifiable).
Betty Cracker
@Chris: I agree with all of that, but understanding the root cause does seem to be important beyond solving the chicken-egg riddle of it. For one thing, it helps explain the daily programming choices of propaganda outlets like Fox News.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Elizabelle: It’s Strom.
Shane in Utah
Botha had no shame whatsoever. The man almost certainly gave orders to death squads responsible for the deaths of hundreds, and scientists working on chemical and biological warfare. He ignored subpoenas by the Truth Commission. The nasty old crocodile went to his grave defiant and unrepentant. Even the southern US has rarely seen as bad.
Chet
@Elizabelle: Seems to be one he adopted. A couple of news reports have said he changed it but none have given Roof’s real middle name, if he did change it. There is some family tree research out there but no confirmed relation to anyone first or last name of Storm. Storm Roof might just be some bizarre play on words his dad named him at birth…btw, his dad is a building contracor.