Mr. Charles P. Pierce:
… Memorial Day should be a gentling time, always. Hell, cemeteries are set up to be places of peace and contemplation; there is no more placid, gentle place in Washington than among the markers at Arlington, no better place to be at twilight than the Iwo Jima Memorial there. We should stop and think of the people who made the sacrifices, certainly. But we also should think about what they made those sacrifices for. They did not make them to defend a timid people wary of their own freedom. They did not make them so that other people might one day recklessly force other men and their children to make that same sacrifice for vague and futile purposes. At the moment, more than a few important people are agitating for this country to commit its sons and daughters again to the intractable tribal conflicts in the Middle East. Enough of that for today. On Memorial Day, it is indecent in the extreme to contemplate honoring the dead by sacrificing more of the living.[*]
No, this is not for today. Today is for wandering aimlessly through the markers and monuments, and the small flags spread like daisies in a meadow. Today is for cool little ponds beneath the shade of willow trees and marble benches on which to sit and hear the springtime birdsong, on which to watch the leaves at the very tops of the trees quiver and shake, on which to think and to mourn, to remember and to pray the prayer with which our greatest president ended his greatest speech.
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation’s wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
That is how you celebrate Memorial Day. And, to it, all say amen.
Keith G
I get what Pierce is driving at (and agree), but…
…does not follow logically.
Little Boots
and cause it’s classy, or vintage. for omnes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmOe27SJ3Yc
Little Boots
and mr. charles P, wonderful as always.
Debbie(aussie)
In Aust we have two days for this type of thing; ANZAC Day April 26, the liberals (Torys) have attempted and somewhat succeeded in making this a celebration, yuk, and Remembrance Day 11 November, less ceremonial. Our current government and the previous LNP one under Howard spent a great deal of time trying to militarise our society.
Edit spelling mistake
Valdivia
Even if I don’t participate in the DC celebrations of Memorial Day, the Rolling Thunder always drive by my window so I get a little bit of the feeling of it.
This long weekend really messed up my sense of time: the thread title had me doing a double-take, I was sure it was Sunday.
Culture of Truth
“If God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.”
Omnes Omnibus
It was mentioned on a thread earlier today and Debbie(aussie) reminded me of it again, but this is one of the better songs to listen to today. (FWIW I don’t really see the point of those who were saying earlier today that the song is in any way anti-English.)
Little Boots
@Culture of Truth:
guessing this wouldn’t be ted cruz’s inaugural address, should we ever be so crazy as to elect …
dmbeaster
It is hard not to have white hot anger about those sacraficed fot the rank dishonesty of Cheney Rumsfeld and crew, and their ilk advocating for a repeat while pretending to care for those sacraficed.
Valdivia
@dmbeaster:
and being holier than thou about their patriotism
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
such as it is.
Tree With Water
Those opposed to the “just cause” mentioned below are the political ancestors of Bush-Cheny (et.al.):
Executive Mansion Washington, April 30, 1864
Lieutenant General Grant.
Not expecting to see you again before the Spring Campaign opens, I wish to express, in this way, my entire satisfaction with what you have done up to this time, so far as I understand it. The particulars of your plans I neither know, or seek to know. You are vigilant and self-reliant; and, pleased with this, I wish not to obtrude any constraints or restraints upon you. While I am very anxious that any great disaster, or the capture of our men in great numbers, shall be avoided, I know these points are less likely to escape your attention than they would be mine. If there is anything wanting which is within my power to give, do not fail to let me know it. And now with a brave Army, and a just cause, may God sustain you.
Yours very truly A. Lincoln
Little Boots
@Tree With Water:
yup, the confederate flag is a kind of patriotism. not a good kind.
srv
What FDChief said:
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: It was interesting that in the run-up to the war, I had conversations with a large number of people about it – friends from my time in the army, colleagues, random people in bars. My army friends knew I was far more liberal than many of them were, but not a one questioned my patriotism. Others who had served, but not with me, did question my patriotism either. Those ones who did were those who had never thought of military service. I got called a variety of unpleasant names including coward. When I mentioned that I had been an army officer and had thus put myself at risk, they said I must have been a shitty one (while this was a lucky guess, I got to pull the you’ve never been there you don’t get to judge card).
Mike J
Mom put the DAR wreath at a local cemetery today. Went back this evening to pick it up and watch them turn off the “eternal” flame until the next event where they’ll relight it.
Little Boots
@srv:
yup, X100
Valdivia
@Little Boots:
indeed, I would say they have none, or theirs is a simulacrum of it.
PurpleGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: The question was asked “why so many Irish bands play that song.” Would you agree that it is an anti-war song? I think that Irish bands ‘like’ and play the song because it is anti-war, anti-establishment, and the establishment at that time was the English government. No, nothing in the lyrics directly says anti-English, you have to infer it.
The Gallipolli campaign was an out-and-out disaster, even in a war that had so many other disasters. The English landed the Commonwealth troops there without accurate maps of the terrain, they did not have plans for resupplying the troops, etc. Churchill was forced to step down from the Naval Ministry over his role in the Gallipolli disaster.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Just hearing about it makes my blood boil on your behalf and that of anyone who heard similar insults. Reactions such as these always always make me think of that stupid book by Harvey Mansfield Manliness which was such an embodiment of the era and the way neocons think. The whole of the country it seems was seduced by this idea, and what its parallel is in governance. This is why today we hear about Leadership! endlessly from the Village idiots because they all were brainwashed into thinking being a leader is being an asshole who postures all the time.
As you can see I have very strong feelings about it.
Steeplejack
@Valdivia:
All day yesterday it felt like Saturday to me. Today felt a little like a Sunday, but not as much.
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
yeah, very torn about patriotism. it is not a terrible thing in and of itself, but so easily abused.
Omnes Omnibus
Since in missed the threads earlier today with the family stories – I spent the weekend in my home town helping my parents with yard work and otherwise interacting with family – my dad has gone deep into family history and today we talked about the meaning behind Memorial Day. I have a family that should not be ashamed to stand in the shadow of Tommy’s as far as military history goes. My family has had someone serving during every war since the Pequot War, and due to French-Canadian ancestors, sometimes on both sides. My dad has only been able to uncover one great…uncle who died during one of these wars – at Antietam. Most survived and came home – some injured mentally, physically, or both – but they came home.
Valdivia
@Steeplejack:
it usually doesn’t happen to me during long weekends but somehow it did this time. Maybe because I was plodding away on Friday and Saturday and took a break today. :)
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: I enjoy the stories. Always looking for the little stories.
BillinGlendaleCA
I’ve finished painting my bathroom, except for the door and door frame. Thank FSM that fucking green is gone.
Corner Stone
@Valdivia:
Sure you don’t mean plotzing?
Valdivia
@Corner Stone:
of that, at least, I am sure!
According to my autocorrect, yesterday I was plotting.
Omnes Omnibus
@PurpleGirl: It is clearly an anti-war song. I don’t think it is necessary to dig deeper than that. As to why Irish bands play it, I would suggest that it is written in the style of the traditional folk music of the British Isles – no more, no less.
@Valdivia: I actually do contempt and condescension rather well. I used that skill in those situations. The thing I was/am more upset about is that during that time government jobs in Ohio were very political (at least in the legal world) and I know of several job opportunities that I lost a chance at because of this.
catclub
@PurpleGirl: Yep. There were all kinds of easy targets, and The British High command picks the only place that the terrain makes incredibly easy to defend.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Are you stunned by my story?
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
crazy.
anyone ever, you know, admitted it was all complete bullshit after all?
I don’t think you even need to answer that.
Omnes Omnibus
@catclub: Oddly, had it been done well, it would likely have shortened the war. But then, since von Moltke the Elder was dead by then, no military officer of high enough rank to design something like that in any country’s service had the brain power to do it right, Gallipolli wasn’t any different than Verdun or the Somme.
Little Boots
damn von moltke. being all elder.
Omnes Omnibus
@Little Boots: The people who were particularly insulting were cut off. Some of the others have “mumble, mumble.”
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
Contempt and condescension are useful tools to have and use. And of course totally apt for that moment.
What happened to you is exactly why my blood boils (not just the outrageous comments and the chutzpah of these people for saying it): these ideas totally contaminated our politics and had horrible consequences.
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
and still do. that’s what kinda kills me. they’re all around jeb, and the ones that aren’t are around all the other republican candidates. and a few around hillary I’m guessing. nobody paid a price.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia:
I agree. Someone as bellicose as Churchill once said, “To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war.” Violence can be necessary, but it should be used only when all other options have been exhausted. And, even then, I generally subscribe to Just War Theory. It is hard to check off all those boxes, as it should be.
Origuy
“The Band Played Waltzing Mathilda” was written by Eric Bogle, a Scottish-born emigrant to Australia. Here’s another of his anti-war songs: The Green Fields of France.
Little Boots
@Origuy:
honestly if that could be the theme song of memorial day, it might be really powerful.
Omnes Omnibus
@Origuy: That song always gives me goosebumps.
Steeplejack
@Valdivia:
All right, already!
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
do you think it was because even in his bellicosity he knew the cost of war-war, which these people didn’t and were oblivious about?
Am I making it up that Michael Walzer wrote about Just War Theory in the lead up to the war in Iraq?
Valdivia
@Steeplejack:
was just kidding! Also: I am pretty unforgiving with myself about typos. I have had some awful memorable ones.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Valdivia:
I was kidding too.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ve heard better little stories, from other military brats.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: Yes, I think Churchill was aware of the costs. He had seen bits of it and had the imagination to imagine the rest. OTOH, when he saw the cost as justified, he was all in.
Walzer published Arguing About War in 2004.
Valdivia
@Steeplejack (phone):
:)
I meant to recommend this the other day but forgot. I really enjoyed it when I watched it. It’s on netflix.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
some people liked it. I like teddy roosevelt, but one of the things I really, really dislike is that I think he liked war. liked the idea of it. liked the reality of it.
didn’t churchill talk about how having bullets whiz by him was absolutely thrilling?
satby
@Corner Stone: careful. Remember what happened last time.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
Since I know we have a lot of Civil War buffs here, the Autry museum here in LA has a fascinating new exhibit about the Civil War and the settlement of the West:
http://civilwar.theautry.org
They’ve been doing a great job discussing race in their past few exhibits, and this one is no exception. A big part of it is the discussion about slavery (both Europeans and American Indians were slaveholders of African slaves)and how abolitionism affected the settlement of the west, and the various conflicts between whites, blacks, American Indians, Asians, and even Hawaiian Islanders.
Corner Stone
@satby: Like our president, I believe in looking forward.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I can’t tell exactly what Bill Kristol is smirking about here, but as far as I can tell he’s hiding behind an Iraq War vet to pose as an “alpha male”. Or an alpha male’s twitter sidekick
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: I am not a military brat. Of course, neither is Tommy.
@Little Boots:
Ever talk to an adrenalin junky? Fast cars, BASE jumping, and so on. Doing something that might hurt or kill one and surviving completely unscathed is an amazing thrill. Drugs and booze cannot compare.
Little Boots
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
yup, one of those ones that just went on prospering after all the bullshit.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I remembered some article in Dissent Magazine (which Walzer was editing at the time) in support of the war, it turns out it was the other editor who wrote it. But I do think there was something he wrote about Just War and Iraq that seemed at least mildly supportive.
Corner Stone
Someone please, FFS, tell Josh Smith that his O’ Brother Where Art Thou prison garb is NOT appropriate for an after game interview.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
yup, there is that. and it is not definitive. but I think there really are people out there that like war as the ultimate thrill.
Corner Stone
I’m a pretty good swimmer but this freakin’ deluge BS can take a couple days break and shit. Just sayin’.
Omnes Omnibus
@Valdivia: I am not familiar with it, but that means little. And I never read “Dissent Magazine.”
Tommy
Pierce is the man. A national treasure. For many years I drove by Arlington and the graves. It was one of the things about living in the Capital. Oh and Nick Drake rocks. Pass away far too young.
Omnes Omnibus
@Little Boots: It’s not war, LB, It’s risking one’s life against things that one can plan about and then introducing new factors. And then seeing if one wants to play. War is an easy way of satisfying that urge. Exploring the upper reaches of the Nile is another. Or trying for the South Pole like Shackleton.
Steeplejack (phone)
About to go to bed, but I took a few minutes to look at my father’s flight surgeon wings, which I keep in my top dresser drawer. I have two of his badges, both well worn.
I think the larger one is very old, probably from the ’50s. The smaller one has the star denoting a senior flight surgeon.
Dad was career Air Force, died four years ago. RIP.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
okay.
not sure that’s all it is, but okay.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I spent way too much time reading all those little magazines when I was in grad school (that’s a whole other story)
Since Walzer is supposed to be one of the leading political philosophers who writes about Just War I remember thinking how could he defend this? But I might be totally misremembering.
Little Boots
@Steeplejack (phone):
wow, you come by your empathy honestly.
Omnes Omnibus
@Little Boots: Basically, the military gives young people the opportunity to see how far they can push their personal limits. For me, I wanted to see if I could succeed in Officer Candidate School and get my Jump Wings. I did both. The rest of my service was a job. I had done what mattered to me, personally, the day I go my wings.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Valdivia:
I saw that you recommended it to someone else; I will check it out.
Valdivia
@Steeplejack (phone):
Those are amazing. He must have had some incredible stories.
@Steeplejack (phone):
I think you will enjoy it. It’s very MhZ :)
Tommy
@Steeplejack (phone): I don’t know where my grandfathers medals are. But he was a flight surgeon as your father was.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
yeah, never thought you were an actual war lover, they’re out there, but kind of rare.
never thought you were.
Omnes Omnibus
@Steeplejack (phone): You are correct about what the wings mean. Basic and then Senior Flight Surgeon. The size difference is dependent on which uniform the wings would be worn with.
Respect.
/Ali G.
Amir Khalid
@Little Boots:
For you, another Malay pop classic.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Omnes Omnibus:
They are surprisingly heavy for their size—real metal.
jl
Interesting article at TPM blog about the origins of Memorial Day.
Used to be called Decoration Day, started by freedmen remembering Union soldiers killed in Civil War.
I vaguely remember reading about this.
The Surprising History Of Memorial Day
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/the-surprising-history-of-memorial-day
I think I remember some long gone elder in my family saying that there was a concerted effort to relabel the holiday as Memorial Day, and expunge its history and repurpose it to a more universal and less ‘sectarian’ holiday during, or right after WWII. I’m not sure whether that is true, and I see nothing about that in the TPM post.
Steeplejack (phone)
@Valdivia:
He had an interesting career. He was on the launch site recovery team for many of the NASA Apollo missions. That involved lots of jumping out of helicopters into the ocean. He said their jumpsuits alternated between Yum Yum Yellow and Orange Crunch. (Shark joke.)
Little Boots
@Amir Khalid:
is this awesome? is it terrible? are you awesome? are you terrible?
I don’t know.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus:
I was wrong: he was arguing in favor of sanctions and no flight zones instead of the war we got.
@Little Boots: that was Bob Simon who was held in an Iraqi jail. I liked him a lot, he was a real journalist and a big loss.
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
wait, he wasn’t the journalist that died, was he?
Ruckus
Pierce, like always says it much better than I can. But this day is about those who are gone. It is not about those who still are around. We have a day for that. It bothers me greatly that their lives and passing are really disgraced by so many, trying to justify more dying. Humans have been on this rock for some time now and I like to think that we should have been able to figure out how to not keep sending others off to die for asinine reasons. But of course there are many who haven’t or don’t even want to try.
So we should have at least one day that we contemplate what the loss of these lives really means. And it’s not only their lives but this also denied parents and grandparents, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, wives and husbands and friends, each of us actually, their presence, and that future they never got.
Little Boots
@Ruckus:
we should, I’m not sure this day has become that. I think it’s more let’s pat ourselves on the back cause we love our dead soldiers who died for us.
maybe cynical here.
I defer to anyone actually thinking of any actual dead soldier.
Valdivia
@Steeplejack (phone):
love the shark jokes. He sounds like he was a really cool guy. Thanks for sharing his story.
Amir Khalid
@Little Boots:
With music, only one question is ever relevant: Do I like it?
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
you may be right. I don’t think it was him. now that I think of it, it was a pretty famous journalist. new republic?
Little Boots
@Amir Khalid:
thought it was, does Omnes like it?
Omnes Omnibus
@Little Boots: Are you thinking of Michael Kelly?
Little Boots
michael?
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
thank you. knew you would know.
opiejeanne
@Steeplejack (phone): My dad died three years ago. He was a sergeant in the Signal Corps, in WWII. He was 4F the first two times he tried to enlist, he was a skinny little guy, so he signed up with the signal corps before his draft notice showed up (I don’t know how that worked) got in. He bought his parents a really good atlas just before he was sent to Camp Kohler to learn this cool new radio science that was so secret that he was not allowed to know what it was called. On leave in Davis one of his buddies picked up a comic book and they realized that they were learning how to use radar.
He landed in Normandy about 5 days after D-Day, up the Seine a little way. He was in Bradley’s army and then in Eisenhower’s. After the war he was in Nuremburg and had a pass to the trials but couldn’t bring himself to attend. His dad was really annoyed with him because it was history and he was a witness. Either Dad or one of his buddies snapped this of Ike leaving a meeting after the war. Note his uniform: https://flic.kr/p/o6gJS
Little Boots
@opiejeanne:
very, very, very cool.
Eric U.
the thing I hate about Memorial Day is people using it to remember their family members who didn’t serve. First saw that in Utah, it’s a big deal there.
Little Boots
omnes music?
Little Boots
@Little Boots:
and no waltzing or matilda.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Amir Khalid: It’s been about 30 years since I’ve heard Malay spoken.
Valdivia
@Omnes Omnibus: @Little Boots:
sorry I thought you were thinking of the one that died recently. Yes Michael Kelly TNR and also WaPo (I think). He was super nasty to anybody who disagreed with the war.
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
yeah, actually I remember that.
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
and you …
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Valdivia: and before that notable for an unhinged hatred of Al Gore. IIRC he was the one who did the magazine cover of Al Gore as a vampire. One of MoDo’s best friends
@Eric U.: shouldn’t that be All Saints/Day of the Dead? We never did that in my family (Irish Catholic), but I suspect the Pope would be happy to lend it to the Mormons
Steeplejack (phone)
@opiejeanne:
Good story, good picture.
Valdivia
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
oh yeah I had forgotten about that. nasty all around like all neocons.
off into slumber
buenas noches you all.
Omnes Omnibus
@Eric U.: My family uses the day to point out the graves of family members and make sure that they are well tended. We visit them and remember. If you have an issue with that, I am sorry.
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
fine, we’re just getting crazy.
miss the best part.
Ruckus
This is what this day is about.
Valdivia
@Little Boots:
I am tempted!
but my eyes are closing and I have a deadline tomorrow for work and need to wake up in 4 hours.
I will enjoy vicariously tomorrow when I am done with work. :)
Steeplejack (phone)
@Valdivia:
Buenas noches.
Little Boots
@Valdivia:
fine.
Little Boots
@Steeplejack (phone):
and the hell have you been?
BillinGlendaleCA
@Valdivia: Buenas nochos.
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
uh huh.
Little Boots
omnes, you’re not pissed are you?
Omnes Omnibus
@Little Boots: No, just sleepy.
Little Boots
@Omnes Omnibus:
okay.
Valdivia
@Steeplejack (phone): @BillinGlendaleCA:
gracias.
Til tomorrow (today really)
BillinGlendaleCA
@Little Boots: Nachos, damnit, Nachos.
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
goober. fine.
BillinGlendaleCA
@Little Boots: Well, i am eating peanuts. Goober, hah!
Little Boots
@BillinGlendaleCA:
dammit. why do I like you?
Omnes Omnibus
Good night all.
Suzanne
Comment EATED. FYWP.
Ruckus
AL
I had never heard Nick Drake before. Thank You.
wasabi gasp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeQvyxW6RaU
opiejeanne
@Little Boots:
Dad in Luxembourg. He’s the short one.
https://flic.kr/p/jkgMb
Aleta
Dog cartoon
http://youtu.be/YsgPEvOSkbY
Luthe
I’m surprised none of the geek squad around here noticed that Memorial Day was also the Glorious 25th of May*. Now there’s a book about war and remembrance.
How do they rise up?
*For the non-geeks, this is a reference to Terry Pratchett’s excellent book Night Watch.
The Pale Scot
Word
opiejeanne
@Luthe: I was going to mention it yesterday Alas, all of our lilacs have concluded their blooming early this year so we could not wear a sprig in honor of the glorious revolution.