Someone Gets It

While many will not understand why the protests sometimes turn violent, the COO of the Baltimore Orioles, John Angelos, does:

Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.

That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.

The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids’ game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don’t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.

I’m not excusing rioting, but I understand it.






215 replies
  1. 1
    Cervantes says:

    I’m not excusing rioting, but I understand it.

    Doesn’t take an Einstein — and I’m sure you’d be the first to agree.

  2. 2
    WereBear says:

    It’s all TRUE.

    And thus, garlic to our undead media.

  3. 3
    Tree With Water says:

    At first I thought it was his father talking, and thought how badly I’d misjudged the old gentleman. And who knows, maybe the acorn didn’t fall far from the tree. Makes me hope to see a Giants-Orioles World Series this year. It would be nice to square off against a team with an owner who bears no resemblance to Montgomery Burns for a change.

  4. 4
    Betty Cracker says:

    Wow. I have a new hero.

  5. 5
    max says:

    That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.

    A-fucking-men!

    max
    [‘Bet he’s not a big TPP supporter.’]

  6. 6
    Elie says:

    How old is he and can we run him for office?

    Seriously — AMEN!

  7. 7
    gogol's wife says:

    @Elie:

    My thoughts exactly. That is unbelievably eloquent.

  8. 8
    LAC says:

    Now that is some insight!

  9. 9
    RP says:

    Looks like John Angelos has been hanging out with David Simon.

  10. 10
    JPL says:

    Okay, I’ll cheer for the Orioles but only if they aren’t playing the Sox. What a wise man.

  11. 11
    Violet says:

    Wow. That’s amazing.

    Have his counter tops been inspected yet?

  12. 12
    Howard Beale IV says:

    A most epic rant.that tells some very unwelcome truths.

    While history may be written by the victors, are you willing to be their cannon fodder?

  13. 13
    Brachiator says:

    Wow. And very interesting that this was apparently a series of Twitter replies, not an op-ed piece in a newspaper or a TV interview.

  14. 14
    Violet says:

    @Elie:
    From his Wikipedia entry:

    In the past, he donated to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, the DNC Services Corp, Presidential Candidates Joe Biden and Barack Obama, Congressman John Sarbanes, Democratic Candidate for Congress Frank Kratovil, the Missouri Democratic State Committee, the Indiana Democratic Congressional Victory Committee and the Democratic Party of Colorado.[82]

    Angelos is also an ardent supporter of the ACLU, Amnesty International, Planned Parenthood, Special Olympics, St. Jude Hospital and several progressive and populist publications.

    His age was listed as 31 in a 1999 article.

  15. 15
    Elizabelle says:

    Good. Orioles game cancelled.

    I wondered how they’d handle having all the folks exit if the disorder escalates after dark.

  16. 16
    MomSense says:

    @Violet:

    Is he single? Asking for a friend.

  17. 17
    Lavocat says:

    Just a classier way of saying “They’ve already done everything but start killing us – and now they’ve started to do that, too!”

    I’m actually quite impressed that people are finally standing up to all of this bullshit, even if it is violent.

    Frankly, do you honestly think anything was going to change UNTIL violent opposition began to grow?

    How many more cops have to murder unarmed people before the lid truly blows off?

    Time will tell.

  18. 18
    Starfish says:

    Baltimore Brew’s coverage a couple of days ago was really good.

  19. 19
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @Elizabelle: As the Orioles COO, he’s not about to take on that liability. And as a human, he knows that people need to just chilll……

  20. 20
    Laertes says:

    If history teaches us anything, it’s that any time there’s rioting you need to ask “What are the police doing to fan the flames?” And the answer, always and everywhere, is: “More than they’re willing to admit.”

  21. 21
    Elizabelle says:

    DC TV affiliates are staying with local coverage; not going with nightly ABC and CBS network news.

  22. 22
    BGinCHI says:

    A big-time sports COO who isn’t an asshole?

    Hoax.

  23. 23
    Elizabelle says:

    @Howard Beale IV: Yeah. I was thinking how restless and apprehensive the fans might be, and how hard to control if a rumor swept the stadium. Plus, exiting after dark.

    Best to play the game another day.

  24. 24
    raven says:

    The guys they are showing right now have terrible arms.

  25. 25
    Randy Khan says:

    Speaking purely as a baseball fan, his dad is an utter jerk, and historically a terrible owner. (He forced out Davey Johnson the year Johnson won Manager of the Year, and managed not to re-sign Mike Mussina, who likely would have taken a home team discount *and* much-loved broadcaster Jon Miller, who never even got an offer, and so returned home to the Bay area). But he’s also a long-time supporter of the Democratic Party, like a lot of personal injury lawyers who made their money representing regular folks. I’m glad that his son picked up that part of his personality.

  26. 26
    Mike in NC says:

    Wingnut Wurlitzer blaming Obama in 3…2…1

  27. 27
    Trentrunner says:

    Adam Baldwin on Twitter wants Obama “to control his children.”

    He seems nice.

  28. 28
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Understanding the violence doesn’t justify it though. Just heard a State Senator from Baltimore say that the protesters who’ve engaged in violence have no goals which makes them different from Dr. King and other Civil Rights activists of the 1960s. Agreed. This is just senseless, opportunistic violence which takes the focus off of the police killing of Freddie Gray. It’s a shame.

  29. 29
    raven says:

    sparrow says:
    block April 27, 2015 at 5:09 pm
    As a bal’morian that marched on Saturday, I am pretty pissed off at these guys. But I want to point out that the looters and rioters that showed up at the end on Saturday were *not* protesters. They were not holding signs, they didn’t march for hours. They were just there to wreck shit. Same with these fools. It is sadly true that we have a subset of the Baltimore youth that are what you see here. They make it a hell of a lot harder to fight for justice and fixing things. I really don’t know what else to say.

    If you read the comments you this video you will see how Baltimore feels about this:

  30. 30
    beer time somewhere says:

    @BGinCHI:The 1%ers will be kicking him out of the club. No way they can have a member talking like that.

  31. 31

    @Mike in NC: “This is why the police have militarized”: Conservatives respond to Baltimore riots

  32. 32
    Pogonip says:

    I get it.

    I don’t think rioting will do much good, but I can certainly sympathize with the anger.

  33. 33
    The Republic of Stupidity says:

    That’s pretty damned well said on Angelos’ part…

    There are a couple of numbers I haven’t been able to find related to what was said above…

    Mebbe someone here knows how to find them…

    1. What is the total number of jobs that have been shipped overseas over the last 4 decades?

    2. What is the total number of dollars that went overseas to pay those workers? Ya know, left this country?

    How many millions of jobs went overseas and how many trillions of dollars went with them?

  34. 34
    Laertes says:

    Anyone got a link to the number of police officers captured by demonstrators and murdered by having their spinal cords severed? Anyone?

  35. 35
    LAC says:

    @Mike in NC: this would never have happened if those FEMA reeducation death camps were not stalled. Or whatever shit they will think up.

    I wonder if any presidential candidates will weigh in on this.

  36. 36
    charluckles says:

    @raven:

    We take everything from these people, we leave nothing for them to hope for and no opportunity and then we are just shocked…SHOCKED that they act like they have nothing to lose.

  37. 37
  38. 38
    Elizabelle says:

    Local DC ABC reporter doing standup in front of looted business.

    Protester in background: “Tell the truth!”

    He sticks with property damage, eventually says protesters are yelling at him and his crew to leave.

  39. 39
    the Conster says:

    Well, it looks pretty bad in Baltimore but it’s still no Pumpkin Fest where the stakes were…. pumpkins.

  40. 40
    AxelFoley says:

    @Patricia Kayden: No shit. But when people keep getting beat down, one day they’ll explode. And will be justified in doing so.

    You can only keep fucking with folks for so long before they finally blow up on your ass.

  41. 41
    Judge Crater says:

    Interesting. But professional sports teams have become (even more so than ever) the trophy toys of the plutocracy. There was a recent book that coined the term “sky box America”, where subsidies of all sorts are lavished on the home football, baseball, hockey or basketball team to keep the billionaire owners and their backers in luxurious sky boxes while the rest of the city gets squat.

    Going to any kind of professional sporting event is really beyond the means of a majority of Americans. We’re talking hundreds of dollars for admission, food, drink and transportation for a small family. The ambiance at a Nats game in DC is about the same as an upscale fern bar – yuppies and well-off suburbanites drinking $10 beers and eating $8 hotdogs.

    Angelos may be right but we as a country keep moving toward a “Latin American” style society. A tiny majority of fantastically wealthy families, a small – maybe 10 or 20 percent – professional class, and a huge majority of minimum-wage proles. It just gets worse. And the bottom 20 percent gets kicked in the ass by everyone one rung up the ladder.

    And yet every trailer park in the country is full of “libertarians” who want to keep government out of their Medicare and think the Koch brothers and “free market” capitalism are better than the “socialism” of Obamacare. John Angelos better watch his mouth at the next baseball owners meeting. He’ll have his franchise taken away and given to a more deserving one percenter.

  42. 42
    catatonia says:

    Makes me proud to be an Orioles fan.

    His old man is admirable in some ways but, to echo a prior comment, he’s been a pretty lousy owner. Since Pete’s up there now, I wonder how much of the O’s resurgence over the past few years can be attributed to John — who’s supposedly taking over the ownership once the father goes — taking a larger role, that role being to let Duquette and Showater run the show.

  43. 43
    Corner Stone says:

    but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation

    Sing it with me!
    “T-P-P, easy as 1-2-3”

  44. 44
    charluckles says:

    @raven:

    I know, I know.

    I was just at a restaurant with CNN on a large group of people were standing around wondering aloud about why people would act like this. The inability of people to understand cause and effect is just a little depressing.

  45. 45
    Elie says:

    @AxelFoley:

    Only a white person with no fear of this kind of treatment can be so cavalier about the inevitability of violence — and the consequences of that violence to people already at the margins — trying to hang on to some sort of life. How does burning down their neighborhood pharmacy help this?

    Seriously. Don’t do us any favors by advocating for violence as an acceptable and expected outcome to black frustration. We need self control and the ability to see what hurts us, what keeps the conversation about us, not about the behavior of police officers. Please help set that tone.

  46. 46
    raven says:

    @charluckles: I’m just holding my breath hoping no one starts shooting.

  47. 47
    scav says:

    “But, But, But, when we suggested violence was warranted in order to ‘Take One Country Back!’ it wasn’t for ‘those’ people. It was all going to be a decorous stroll down to the local sheriff ammoed up, certainly, but wearing our country-club ties and graciously accepting the keys back from the proper old-school authorities. Vodka Martinis afterwards. Not this ‘messy’ rabble.”

  48. 48
    gelfling545 says:

    @Lavocat:

    I’m actually quite impressed that people are finally standing up to all of this bullshit, even if it is violent.

    Same here.

    Frankly, do you honestly think anything was going to change UNTIL violent opposition began to grow?

    And, no. Sad but true.

  49. 49
    Corner Stone says:

    @scav:

    Vodka Martinis afterwards.

    Careful now. The pedants around here are probably gathering to knock your block off over this.

  50. 50
    scav says:

    @Corner Stone: I’ll just have to duck fast and point at who’s supposedly ordering them.

    ETA: Not that my block is any more secure for all that. I’ll probably knock it off myself while ducking. Lost one of the nuts trying to fix the cross-threading.

  51. 51
    Corner Stone says:

    Although I agree with much of what John Angelos says, and I get he’s probably being sincere, the irony (or some other word that means something) of the ownership of a club speaking on this is not lost.

  52. 52
    Corner Stone says:

    @scav: Good luck.
    This New Era of Pedantry ™ is hard.

  53. 53
    Lavocat says:

    @gelfling545: And I LOVE it when hyper-militarized cops tell rock-throwing protesters that “violence is not the answer”.

    Uh-huh.

    Funny, but I’d take these people seriously only after they stopped killing innocent civilians, put down all their uber-weapons, and joined hands for a rousing round of Kumbaya.

    I love me some Martin, but I’m much more in touch with Malcolm. So, yeah, Fight The Power.

  54. 54
    Corner Stone says:

    @Judge Crater:

    Going to any kind of professional sporting event is really beyond the means of a majority of Americans. We’re talking hundreds of dollars for admission, food, drink and transportation for a small family. The ambiance at a Nats game in DC is about the same as an upscale fern bar – yuppies and well-off suburbanites drinking $10 beers and eating $8 hotdogs.

    It’s crazy. I haven’t been to a basketball or football game in years unless I received free tickets. And even then it cost a fortune (relatively speaking).
    Baseball is still fairly affordable depending on the seats you’re willing to take.

  55. 55
    Elie says:

    So tell me, “standing up” to the injustice and inappropriate violence by the police, means undertaking violence? How about standing up in the voting booth? So many young, poor black people — the same ones burning down stores — don’t vote. Their votes would do a lot to change who our leaders are and consequences. That is a better consequence than burned stores and time in jail, no?

  56. 56

    @Judge Crater:

    Going to any kind of professional sporting event is really beyond the means of a majority of Americans. We’re talking hundreds of dollars for admission, food, drink and transportation for a small family.

    Bullshit. There’s an obnoxious sports marketing firm that puts out a cost report, but that’s targeted a teams trying to show them how to get as much money as possible. They deliberately exaggerate costs by including unnecessary things like game souvenirs. Somebody who wants to go to a game for a reasonable price can get in for a lot less.

    For example, the moderately cheap seats at Orioles games are between $15 and $20 each, and they may be available from scalpers for less than that immediately before the game. Tuesday nights have a special where there are $10 tickets when purchased in advance. Getting to the game can be cheap, since there is a public transit stop adjacent to the park. A family that’s willing to plan can go to the game for under $100, much less the hundreds of dollars you’re claiming.

    IOW, MLB attendance last year was over 70,000,000, and you can’t get there by marketing exclusively to the 1%. Going to a game doesn’t have to be a lot more expensive than going to a movie.

  57. 57
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @The Republic of Stupidity: The real problem that you have is the way unemployment numbers are reported. The topline number that everyone in the press quotes is U3. But the real number that includes those who have stooped looking for work, those who have exceeded their benefits and any number of other disqualifying factors go into the U6 bucket. And of course, there’s those who are under-employed who don’t show up on any statistic whatsoever.

  58. 58
    Lavocat says:

    @Elie: Did you just wake up in America, or what? No one can be that naïve, can they?

  59. 59
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Elie: I doubt any BJ readers support the senseless violence we’re seeing in Baltimore. I hope the police are able to get a handle on things before nightfall.

  60. 60
    Corner Stone says:

    It’s a little hard to tell but it looks like there are a lot of empty seats for the ATL at NETS basketball game.

  61. 61
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    “What abouts mah prahperty???”

    Black men are dying. White men are having their property damaged. Ring a bell? A hundred bells? A thousand?

  62. 62
    Corner Stone says:

    @Patricia Kayden: All ideas are good ideas!
    /Mabel

  63. 63
    Elie says:

    @Lavocat:

    So your solution is to just burn it down? That is the fix, your solution?

    Who is naïve? I am no pollyana. But neither am I going to waste lives and real power of the people advocating for throwing bricks. Map me the path to success with violence…

  64. 64
    Steve says:

    How’d the kid get the severed spine?

  65. 65
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    When you block means of peaceful change, you set the stage for violence.

    The .01% have been moving all the players into place since 1980.

  66. 66
    Cacti says:

    @Roger Moore:

    IOW, MLB attendance last year was over 70,000,000, and you can’t get there by marketing exclusively to the 1%. Going to a game doesn’t have to be a lot more expensive than going to a movie.

    The Orioles actually rank 7th for affordability out of 122 North American sports franchises in MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL, when calculating the combined costs of a ticket, parking, hot dog, soft drink, and a beer.

    The Ravens, by comparison, rank 117th.

  67. 67
    Elie says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Well you would be wrong about that. Read some of the comments, Patricia.

  68. 68
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Well, perhaps if the black men were their property, then the white men might show greater concern.

    Oh, wait, we tried that once and it didn’t work out. Never mind.

  69. 69
    Corner Stone says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I stopped taking calls from a 25+ year friend of mine when he changed his tagline on FB to be, “Pants up, don’t loot!”
    He was always a rwnj asshole but that was just too much. No interest in talking sports with someone who promulgates that shit.
    Wait…”promulgates”…? God dammit.

  70. 70
    Elie says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Oh gosh, that is so — 1960. Really? Ok. Hmmm — what is your map to success using violence? Do you plan a visit to the barricades? How much white skin do you think would be on a violent solution to police brutality. Really — I am surprised by your comment.

  71. 71
    max says:

    @Patricia Kayden: I doubt any BJ readers support the senseless violence we’re seeing in Baltimore. I hope the police are able to get a handle on things before nightfall.

    It’s a bunch of pissed off kids. (Dancing in the street.)

    Having been through that area (most of the action is on North St., with the intersection at Penn. St. as the epicenter), it’s a perfectly pretty area architecturally, but it’s run down because it’s poor.

    max
    [‘It’s a fool with the gun that’s worrisome.’]

  72. 72
    Lavocat says:

    @Elie: Burn it down and KEEP burning it down until you get the proper attention you deserve. If violence is not the answer, then why arm police with weapons? If violence is not the answer, then why engage in the most horrifically violent foreign policy on the planet for the past 50 years? If violence is not the answer, then why are soooo many unarmed and innocent civilians being repeatedly executed by (mostly) white males with all sorts of weapons bestowed upon them by the power of the state?

    Of COURSE violence is the answer: violence is ALWAYS the answer. It’s just not always the RIGHT answer.

    As I stated previously: I love Martin, but he was far too idealistic. I’m more of a Malcolm man myself. And, in the end, their critics only answered both of them … with violence.

  73. 73
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cacti: I don’t think comparing MLB against other leagues is useful, IMO. There are 80 or so chances for a homer to see a game in MLB. There are 8 for an NFL homer.
    But I do agree that both basketball and football are very expensive for the normal budget, relatively (relatively? relatedly? belatedly?) speaking.

  74. 74
    Cacti says:

    @Lavocat:

    Violence is not the answer…

    Except for when it is.

  75. 75
    Lavocat says:

    @Cacti: “Violence is not the answer” say the people in control of state-sanctioned violence.

  76. 76
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @Elie: Some white people don’t mind when other black people get killed, especially when they’re safely typing their nonsense on a keyboard far, far away from the violence.

  77. 77
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Elie: Ellie, what’s your map to success by other means? The French and Russian Revolutions show us that yup, we’re going to have some violent change here, and yup, we’ve got some slogans, and yup, the thing that took the place of the Ancien Régime was a pretty bad tyranny itself, but at least some of the underlying problem areas were addressed in the process.

    These people are frustrated and angry and don’t think that they have that much to lose. That’s what creating a destabilizing situation in the name of the greed of a small number will do.

    The correct approach, IMHO, is to increase stability by giving those angry people a reason not to resort to violence. They’re not seeing this…because the people at the top are arrogant assholes who see only the lives of arrogant assholes as relevant, and those others can just all go fuck off and die.

    With that sort of attitude, it’s no wonder people think they have nothing to lose.

  78. 78
    lahru says:

    Let’s go back to the start of the problem. He was suspended for his Facebook posts. Vermont always does it right.

    http://www.wptz.com/news/vermo.....s/32600900

  79. 79
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: Can you tell from the context whether that’s “tell the truth, you lying bastard” or “tell the truth” as in praise because the reporter telling the truth?

  80. 80
    Lavocat says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Preach it, brother!

  81. 81
    Cacti says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I don’t think comparing MLB against other leagues is useful, IMO. There are 80 or so chances for a homer to see a game in MLB. There are 8 for an NFL homer.
    But I do agree that both basketball and football are very expensive for the normal budget, relatively (relatively? relatedly? belatedly?) speaking.

    MLB remains the most affordable fan experience for the reason that you mentioned, but even in an apples to apples comparison, Orioles games are cheap by MLB standards (7th cheapest of 30 teams), and Ravens games are expensive by NFL standards (4th most expensive of 32 teams).

  82. 82
    El Caganer says:

    2015 could turn out to be a really, really bad year. We have cops killing unarmed black people all over the country, which they’ve been doing for a long time, but now there are (1) social media that can spread word of these killings a lot faster than old media could a few years ago; (2) cops weaponized/militarized/etc. as occupying armies, not as law enforcement; and (3) a lunatic gun culture encouraging ‘open carry’ and ‘stand your ground,’ perfect excuses both for white people harboring murder fantasies and for cops looking for additional excuses to kill people. Think I’ll spend the next eight or nine months in my apartment.

  83. 83
    scav says:

    Voted all my life: So, clearly, that’s had an immediate impact and everything is hunky-dory and the way I want to and I’ve made a hell of a change and a difference. Problem solved! Right?

    I at least know that the voting method is at best incremental and dull and inefficient. Looking over history doesn’t reassure me that the best of all possible worlds is invariably attained by tea-sipping over scantron sheets every 2 or 4 years — the lots of nasty violence when things get OTT is the more usual technique of certain forms of societal change and it’s neither pretty nor fun when in the middle of it, nor are outcomes assured. But there’s a hell of a lot of the mayhem littered about the history books. I rather had hoped that the standing around polling places smoothed out some of the throwing rocky phases of existence, but I’m not going to pretend they don’t occur.

    Is this one? My time machine’s on the fritz. But periods of apparent economic disparity coupled with relative hardship tend to be bumpy.

    ETA: added a few breaks to approximate paragraphs.

  84. 84
    Lavocat says:

    @El Caganer: I agree. I’ve been saying this for the past few years. There is going to be a tipping point where social media saturation mixes with pervasive gun ownership saturation to result in street warfare with police reported to the world via Twitter, Instagram, and all the rest, with cell phones and body cams becoming the new “photojournalists” of the pre-apocalyptic era. God help us all.

    I’m gobsmacked by the amount of time the networks already dedicate to social media and cell phone/body cam/surveillance footage. I feel like I’ve stepped through the looking glass. Whoops! Gotta run! Two Minute Hate is on.

  85. 85
    Svensker says:

    Cousin is a retired Southern cop and, god, his FB page right now is a cesspit of racist, fascist, horrible crap. Unbelievable. You all sound so sane.

  86. 86
    Elizabelle says:

    @WaterGirl: Def the lying, posturing bastard. Guy was milking it, too.

  87. 87
    different-church-lady says:

    @Svensker:

    You all sound so sane.

    Hang around for a while, and then reevaluate.

  88. 88
    Corner Stone says:

    @El Caganer:

    (1) social media that can spread word of these killings a lot faster than old media could a few years ago

    I would argue that as much as MHP on MSNBC talks about this topic/issue, she never seems to connect that “technology” is really the driving force behind the movement changing.
    Not only does everyone have a camera ready to go, it just takes one post to get thousands re-posting something true.
    The police can no longer say Freddie Gray, et al, were coked up meth head pot smokers trying to attack innocent bystanders and they had to be taken down.
    Technology is the key to changing the narrative, eventually.
    Sooner, rather than later one hopes.

  89. 89
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: I was hoping it was the other kind of “tell the truth!”.

    I’m pretty sure that reporter isn’t going to be one of the ones who are beat up by the police.

  90. 90
    Svensker says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Compared to the cop’s FB page, Glenn Beck sounds sane. And all his “friends” are cops. Gah.

  91. 91
  92. 92
    Goblue72 says:

    @scav: ayup.

    IIRC, the American Revolution was not the consequence of an election.

  93. 93
    Misterpuff says:

    This isn’t a riot. Its violent demonstration led by assholes. Rocks, bottles, limited looting and Molotov cocktails burning a few cop cars is not a riot. Its a Super Bowl celebration.
    It’ll be a riot when the cops start firing. (Please see the hot summer of 67, almost all of the riots precipitated by armed police action as laid out in Nixonland)

  94. 94
    MattR says:

    @Corner Stone:

    The police can no longer say Freddie Gray, et al, were coked up meth head pot smokers trying to attack innocent bystanders and they had to be taken down.

    They still try. And they still get away with it quite often. Just not as much as before.

    @Misterpuff:

    Its violent demonstration led by assholes.

    Is it a a violent demonstration led by assholes or are there a few assholes using the demonstration to justify and/or hide their violence?

  95. 95

    @Elie:
    I think you’re misreading what VDE is trying to say. As I read it, he is making a statement of fact rather than a value judgment: when you take away peaceful means of change, people who want change will turn to violence. That doesn’t necessarily mean advocating violence; it can just as easily mean that we need to make peaceful change possible to avoid violence.

  96. 96
    Unabogie says:

    @Trentrunner:

    Damn. I’m a fan of his work on “Chuck”. Who knew he was a racist douche?

  97. 97
    Ohio Mom says:

    This thread brings me back to last Thanksgiving in St. Louis, when my SIL declared she was “on their side until they started rioting, now I don’t care anymore.”

    There are some things you wish you could un-hear, and that was one of them. I’d really, really would rather never have known that about her.

  98. 98
    The Republic of Stupidity says:

    @Howard Beale IV: So it’s actually worse than one might think?

  99. 99
    Lavocat says:

    @Ohio Mom: Or as a now ex-friend of mine once said: “We already gave ’em a black president – what more do they want?” I am continually amazed at how people you thought you really knew are more racist than you could ever imagine.

  100. 100
    sparrow says:

    @raven: Tell me what? Believe me, I get why these kids are pissed off. They are right that the whole damned system is crooked and bullshit and designed to take them down. Doesn’t make it a good thing to burn shit and rob and beat people. Doesn’t make it right to kill cops. Sorry. I’ll still march next Saturday after (I’m guessing) no indictments are read out. I don’t know what else to do. This ain’t it. It’s not helping.

  101. 101
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Roger Moore: I might also note, as has been alluded to by many, and as we saw actively during the Civil Rights era, those in opposition to change will not hesitate to resort to violence, and not as a last resort, either, but as a response to actual peaceful protest. Selma was all about that.

  102. 102
    Corner Stone says:

    @MattR:

    They still try. And they still get away with it quite often. Just not as much as before.

    Yes, of course. Didn’t mean to say technology resolved these kinds of conflicts. But saying Freddie Gray was trying to stab a little old white lady while she was crossing the street isn’t going to fly in some of these.

  103. 103
    beltane says:

    @Roger Moore: Or, in Martin Luther King’s words:

    It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard.

    Why are certain groups in our country perpetually unheard?

  104. 104
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Ohio Mom: This is the thing. The peaceful protests in Ferguson resulted in the Ferguson PD deploying in a way that encouraged a violent response, because it was very obvious that the peaceful protests were only causing the powers that be to dig in their heels. Fuck, no, we’re not going to listen to “these animals”. Hell, yes, we’re going to fabricate a response to the death of Michael Brown. We’re going to find something, anything, to make this about Michael Brown’s behavior, not Darren Wilson’s. We’ll find racist liars to back up Wilson’s story, and we’ll do everything we can to bring discredit and doubt upon those who contest Darren Wilson’s story.

    Then we manipulate the media into turning it into a “riot” (which of course our if it bleeds, it leads media laps up) so we can turn public opinion against “those people” in Ferguson.

    All very clever and manipulative, and they know damn well that there are plenty of people out there who can’t or won’t pick up the clues to the manipulation.

  105. 105
    Mike in NC says:

    @Lavocat: 35 years ago some guy named Ronald Reagan was fond of talking about welfare queens driving Cadillacs. Seems like the message got through.

  106. 106
    Patrick says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Then we manipulate the media into turning it into a “riot” (which of course our if it bleeds, it leads media laps up) so we can turn public opinion against “those people” in Ferguson.

    I remember when shortly after the shooting of Michael Brown, activists in Ferguson set up of a booth to register new voters. Republicans and FoxNews went crazy in their anger. It seems like the demonstrators are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

  107. 107
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Patrick:

    It seems like the demonstrators are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

    Well, certainly.

    They are “those people”. As far as Faux Noise and Rethuglicans are concerned, they’re Untermenschen.

  108. 108
    Lavocat says:

    @Mike in NC: And it’s been a long, dark night since that bastard was elected. When I think back to when America stopped giving a shit, I always come back to the moment when the electorate went insane and elected this man emperor. Every state but Massachusetts and Minnesota went for that cocksucker. I’ll never forget it.

  109. 109
    Litlebritdifrnt says:

    This all goes back to the taxing them to death theme. People are being pulled over for bullshit reasons and then being fined into bankruptcy. A simple speeding ticket can turn into numerous violations that call for $2000 in court costs. A waitress with a minimum wage job has no way of paying that, ever. Municipalities are funding their police departments by writing as many tickets as possible. It has got to stop.

  110. 110
    SFAW says:

    @Patrick:

    I remember when shortly after the shooting of Michael Brown, activists in Ferguson set up of a booth to register new voters. Republicans and FoxNews went crazy in their anger.

    And justifiably so – we can’t have those people voting, now can we? As everyone knows, only the white right people get the unfettered right to vote.

  111. 111
    beltane says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt: One could argue that working class America has been the victim of looting.

  112. 112
    Patrick says:

    @SFAW:

    And justifiably so – we can’t have those people voting, now can we? As everyone knows, only the white right people get the unfettered right to vote.

    Well, they only had the worth of 3/5 as a person…

  113. 113
    Gene108 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    From what I have seen you are giving the looters too much credit. They have no interest in sending a political message. For them it is just “free shit”, so take as much as you can carry.

    They are petty thieves.

  114. 114
    Corner Stone says:

    “And shoot them with the condemnation of our bullets.”
    Say what?

  115. 115
    scav says:

    @Gene108: For that matter, not all the Hedge Fund Managers and Bankers are instigators and masterminds. They’re also just there because that’s where all the easy money is. Oh. Look. Humanity. A mixed bag.

  116. 116
    WaterGirl says:

    @beltane:

    One could argue that working class America has been the victim of looting

    … and they would not be wrong!

  117. 117
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Elizabelle: the local ABC station news is pretty wingnutty. (I am in the DC area too)

  118. 118
    Mandalay says:

    @Trentrunner:

    Adam Baldwin on Twitter wants Obama “to control his children.”

    A google search doesn’t find anything to support that. Link?

  119. 119
    Corner Stone says:

    I am more concerned that O’Malley has been campaigning for several weeks and has yet to actually do any interviews or meet with anyone in Baltimore on this issue.

    The fact that O’Malley has gone from MD to Europe during this unrest isn’t helping any.

    I think he should do an interview or something to change the out of control narrative going on there. There is just nothing for Dems to be excited about with his campaign right now.

    I’ve never seen a candidate for president that seems less interested in interacting with voters or anyone that is not 100% friendly.

  120. 120
    Woodrowfan says:

    the DC NBC station report was showing looters attacking a check-cashing-loan place. The reporter was commenting about how their cash was probably locked up in a strong vault. they sounded relieved. I was thinking that the place had probably been preying on the local people for years, charging high fees and interest to people with little or no access to the regular banking system. At least some of the looters knew who their enemy was…

  121. 121
    max says:

    Baltimore Unrest Rooted in Years of Complaints

    Some residents emphasized that the unrest Monday reflected years of unaddressed complaints.

    “This is what you have from years and years of police brutality and abuse in this city. It’s just now boiling over.”

    — Deontrae Lucas, standing near a burning car smoldering outside her house.

    “This is a cocktail that’s built up year after year until now what you see is the explosion. I’m proud of the youth out here taking action. This is them out in the streets saying they are not going to take the abuse that their parents are used to taking.”

    — Ahmed Royalty, as he watched looters nearby.

    max
    [‘Some of the locals beg to differ.’]

  122. 122
    scav says:

    Side note. Somehow they are managing to come up with real-time stats on the numbers of police being injured in the middle of all this activity while somehow not having the capability of doing so for civilians injured while under their control when things aren’t so busy. Data, still a damned fundamental need for, see constant.

  123. 123
    Lavocat says:

    @Gene108: One man’s looter is another man’s freedom-fighter.

  124. 124
    Corner Stone says:

    @Woodrowfan:

    I was thinking that the place had probably been preying on the local people for years, charging high fees and interest to people with little or no access to the regular banking system. At least some of the looters knew who their enemy was…

    I think MSNBC showed the same wide shot. I had the same kind of sense, that at least those vultures were something that should be eradicated from the neighborhood. Not that I want anyone to be hurt, but showing these predators that sometimes the prey fight back wasn’t all bad if no loss of life.
    I’m sure they have insurance for the actions of those uneducated munschen.

  125. 125
    raven says:

    @sparrow I was replying to this. I’m with you.

    : charluckles says:
    block April 27, 2015 at 6:50 pm
    @raven:

    We take everything from these people, we leave nothing for them to hope for and no opportunity and then we are just shocked…SHOCKED that they act like they have nothing to lose.

  126. 126
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Corner Stone: At least in that case. Not so sure about the guys stealing six packs from the corner market though.

  127. 127
    max says:

    @Woodrowfan: At least in that case. Not so sure about the guys stealing six packs from the corner market though.

    Most of the pictures of looting I’ve seen involves people lifting water/food/toilet paper.

    Kinda like the way people hit stores before a major store, but without the paying part. (Wouldn’t do them any good, every store is closed.)

    max
    [‘I’ll bet they need stuff and figure they might as well.’]

  128. 128
    srv says:

    outside agitatators… lawless gangs of thugs… will not allow thugs to take over this city…

    – Larry Hogan, 9PM EST

    You can stick a fork in Baltimore.

  129. 129
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @The Republic of Stupidity: Ah-yep. Right now the ‘official’ U6 rate is 10.9%, but it’s probably a few precentage points higher than that if you were to add those who have been forced to retired prematurely and those who may be illegally collecting disability.

  130. 130
    Woodrowfan says:

    @max: no, no, when it’s black people it’s looting. When it’s white people it’s stocking up on needed supplies during a time of crisis. (yes, I am being bitterly sarcastic)

  131. 131
    cckids says:

    @srv:Just watched that press conference; you knew without being told that the governor was a Republican; he used the term “thugs” all the f*cking time.

  132. 132
    Poopyman says:

    @srv: Outside agitators? I’ll give you outside agitators. This evening I saw a police armored car heading north on I97 about 5 miles north of Annapolis, heading into town to get into position before dark. Now, taking that route into Baltimore means they were coming from Annapolis, the Eastern Shore, or Southern Maryland. All rural counties, so of course our rural counties would have armored cars. Also too, the most confederate counties in the state.

  133. 133
    cckids says:

    Last week, I re-read Terry Pratchett’s “Night Watch”. Every cop in the country should be required to read it, if not memorize it. It has a great example for police on how not to exacerbate a protest into a riot. Also, one of Vimes’ best lines.

    “You are an officer of the Night Watch. You are not a soldier of the city!

  134. 134
    Corner Stone says:

    @Poopyman:

    All rural counties, so of course our rural counties would have armored cars. Also too, the most confederate counties in the state.

    Fuck Maryland. Wish they would just fucking secede already, the bunch of CSA assholes.

  135. 135
    Corner Stone says:

    Speaking of burning it all down, this ATL vs BKN is a fucking barn burner.

  136. 136

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Municipalities are funding their police departments by writing as many tickets as possible.

    And a huge part of the problem is that they are effectively prevented from raising money other ways. Walter Johnson’s article in The Atlantic ought to be required reading. Ferguson is actually home to a Fortune 500 company (Emerson Electric) but is getting only a pittance from them. The tax laws are written in a way that makes it all but impossible for cities in Missouri to get enough money from property taxes, and that means they have to try getting money elsewhere. It’s hard to get more money from sales taxes, because raising them will push people to shop in other nearby cities. That makes fines one of the few ways they actually can increase their income. It’s not just the Ferguson government that’s corrupt and racist; it’s the whole system of taxation.

  137. 137
    lamh36 says:

    @MikeWJZ
    MD Gov Hogan: “New U.S. Attorney General coming to Baltimore to address #FreddieGray situation.” @cbsbaltimore #BaltimoreRiots

    https://twitter.com/mikewjz/status/592857369656320001

    Statement by Attorney General Lynch on the Situation in Baltimore

  138. 138
    Trentrunner says:

    @cckids: Fair enough, but (black, female, Democratic) Baltimore Mayor Rollings-Blake also used the term “thug” to describe criminal rioters/looters.

  139. 139

    @scav:

    Somehow they are managing to come up with real-time stats on the numbers of police being injured in the middle of all this activity while somehow not having the capability of doing so for civilians injured while under their control when things aren’t so busy.

    Getting data on injuries as a result of police action would require the police to care about that. I hope you can understand why that isn’t going to happen, while it’s definitely going to happen when it’s the police getting injured. There’s also the issue of the police having a much easier time dealing with small number than big numbers.

  140. 140
    Corner Stone says:

    Man, another OT in this NBA playoff series.

  141. 141
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Trentrunner:

    Huh, what??

  142. 142
    El Caganer says:

    @Corner Stone: I thought he was actually sending signals that he’s interested in VP or cabinet spots. Now I have no idea what to think: if you’re running on your record as mayor of Baltimore and governor of Maryland, it looks pretty strange if you do a vanishing act to Europe when things get hot.

  143. 143
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Gene108: Some are indeed opportunists. But the thing is, the years of ignoring the issue has provided them the opportunity.

    Don’t ignore the issue for years, address it, address the concerns, and the opportunity to loot vanishes, because the unrest doesn’t exist to provide the opportunity.

    See the Rev King’s comments above @beltane: at 102.

  144. 144
    Baud says:

    @El Caganer:

    He’s returning from Europe early because of this.

  145. 145
    scav says:

    @Roger Moore: Oh I know or can guess why, never fear. The sutures joining my tongue to my cheek fell out a loooong time ago. I just like jumping up and down on the bloody obvious once in a while for exercise.

  146. 146
    lamh36 says:

    @Trentrunner:

    yep. she did. From the official twitter page of the Mayor:

    @MayorSRB
    Too many people have invested in building up this city to allow thugs to tear it down.

    https://twitter.com/MayorSRB/status/592843763178942464

  147. 147
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @cckids: The problem here is that the police in much of this country WANT to escalate a protest into a riot, if only to finally get a chance to deal with “those people” with their new toys.

    In Ferguson, it was painfully obvious that the police WANTED to spark a riot. In the chaos they could engage in every violent fantasy they ever imagined, and most likely never be held accountable for it.

  148. 148
    Botsplainer says:

    @Elie:

    How many of those young men retain the right to vote, or have they been “broken window policed” into early felonies?

    When a bright young man sees that hard work according to “the rules” only results in shit wages, shopping at chain retail that ships profit out of the community and death by petty authoritarians with badges, why not roll the dice on criminality?

    Why demonstrate politeness and civility to shopkeepers who don’t live or shop in the neighborhhoods they serve? Why WOULDN’T you burn out the CVS or a Dollar Store?

  149. 149
    lamh36 says:

    Martin O’Malley is canceling a series of speeches in Ireland to return to his home city of Baltimore #BaltimoreRiots http://cnn.it/1z7V9l5

  150. 150
    Botsplainer says:

    @Elie:

    Failure to pay attention to peaceful protests is the purchase price for riots. Sadly, the riots rarely occur where they need to – country clubs, art museums, the ballet, gated neighborhoods, well-heeled congregations, megachurches, five star restaurants…

  151. 151
    skerry says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake on CNN this evening:

    Too many people have spent generations building up this city for it to be destroyed by thugs who in a very senseless way are trying to tear down what so many have fought for.

  152. 152
    yodecat says:

    John Angelos indeed ‘gets it’. More power to him!

    So… What are we going to do to fix this mess? I t think that more austerity programs and more arrests might not be the answer.

  153. 153
    Corner Stone says:

    The Nets tie the series at 2!

  154. 154
    Botsplainer says:

    @Elie:

    Perhaps a fear of doing too much petty, broken window policing could be instilled, given appropriate levels of violence. Maybe even more effort on training solutions could occur, and an utter rejection of “I was scared, so I shot him” as an excuse would predominate as an ethos.

    Less Judge Dredd, more Columbo.

  155. 155
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @skerry: She needs to do something about the gang with badges that has created the conditions for this unrest.

    Right now it’s all about the symptoms. Not the underlying conditions.

  156. 156
    pagodat says:

    @Botsplainer: Maryland does not permanently disenfranchise felons.

  157. 157
    max says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: She needs to do something about the gang with badges that has created the conditions for this unrest.

    They’ve asked for 5000 cops, plus the state police, plus the national guard.

    max
    [‘I expect she won’t be doing a damn thing.’]

  158. 158
    lamh36 says:

    @TeresaKopec
    WaPo says Senior Center fire In Baltimore is NOT related to riots. Likely a construction fire. http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....baltimore/

  159. 159
    skerry says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Agreed. She is playing to an audience that doesn’t live in her city and is not the constituency that voted her in office.

    I think it is going to be a long, hot summer.

  160. 160
    Dave C says:

    @Roger Moore:
    Holy shit. That Atlantic article needs more attention.

  161. 161
    Napoleon says:

    well blacks seem to be unable to control themselves again. Great shot of black woman on nbc running out of a store with toilet paper. this issue of police brutality is now off the able,again, for 30 years. good job assholes who just keep fucking your own people. but hey,wipe your ass with what you just stole.

    ab

  162. 162
    SFAW says:

    @Patrick:

    Well, they only had the worth of 3/5 as a person…

    And that was in 1789 dollars. Taking inflation into account … let’s see .. multiply by .. carry the one … round up …hmmm … I think their value, or a reasonable approximation thereof, is … let’s see … oh yeah – Zero!

    Note: The above calculations only apply if you’re a one-percenter. If you’re NOT a one-percenter … who the fuck cares about you anyway?

  163. 163
    Fridaynext says:

    @Botsplainer:

    When a bright young man sees that hard work according to “the rules” only results in shit wages, shopping at chain retail that ships profit out of the community and death by petty authoritarians with badges, why not roll the dice on criminality?

    Or as former Baltimorean Frank Zappa once wrote:

    You know we got to sit around at home
    And watch this thing begin
    But I bet there won’t be many live
    To see it really end
    ‘Cause the fire in the street
    Ain’t like the fire in the heart
    And in the eyes of all these people
    Don’t you know that this could start
    On any street in any town
    In any state if any clown
    Decides that now’s the time to fight
    For some ideal he thinks is right
    And if a million more agree
    There ain’t no Great Society
    As it applies to you and me
    Our country isn’t free
    And the law refuses to see
    If all that you can ever be
    Is just a lousy janitor
    Unless your uncle owns a store
    You know that five in every four
    Just won’t amount to nothin’ more
    Gonna watch the rats go across the floor
    And make up songs about being poor

    It’s scary how relevant that song is almost 50 years later.

  164. 164
    Botsplainer says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I can’t watch all that man to man NBA play for more than a few minutes at a time. Too frenetic for me.

  165. 165
    Elie says:

    @Roger Moore:

    Sorry for the delay in my responses to several comments… had to step away for a bit…

    OK — get that now — more clearly. This is difficult. Intellectually, I can say, and agree that ongoing injustice will lead to violence. After we say that, then what? Its the then what. Violence begets more of same and people run away from addressing the underlying injustice It is totally understandable — in fact EASY to give in to the need to bash someone’s head in — to assert one’s power physically. It is immediate and you can see results (blood, injuries, burning things, terror on the face of people) – right away. There is a different kind of satisfaction — and a slower build — on voting and such.

    I know you and most BJrs know this already. I say it over and over — because the impulse to give in to violence, cynicism and despair is sometimes overwhelming. We (me) (black people) just can’t afford it.. we just cant.

  166. 166
    fuckwit says:

    quibble: Mandela, though a great and inspirational leader, was the head of the ANC which by no means preached non violence! They were a revolutionary guerrilla army.

    MLK and Gandhi were the non-violent ones.

    Look, this Angelos guy is amazing and I want to see him run for office. But he buried another lede too: yeah, citizens should respect the law and not riot, and police need to be put through due process when they commit a crime, but POLICE SHOULD RESPECT THE LAW AND NOT MURDER CITIZENS WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. Which is the whole point.

    If police are outlaws, the law is invalid. If police can’t follow the fucking law, you can’t expect citizens todo so either. Can you now??

  167. 167
    Corner Stone says:

    @Botsplainer:

    I can’t watch all that man to man play for more than a few minutes at a time. Too frenetic for me.

    C’mon now. You’re not fooling anybody.

  168. 168
    KS in MA says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    No kidding. Wow.

  169. 169
    fuckwit says:

    @Gene108: Just like the bankers and police have been theiving and robbing them for generations. This may be a pathetic payback, but it’s all they can hope for. Steal millions from people, and all they can get in payback for that it is a free TV or a roll of toilet paper, they’ll take that if they can.

  170. 170
    scav says:

    @Elie:

    It is totally understandable — in fact EASY to give in to the need to bash someone’s head in — to assert one’s power physically. It is immediate and you can see results (blood, injuries, burning things, terror on the face of people) – right away.

    Police shouldn’t give into it either. Nor their enablers and the cheer-leading section for “law ‘n’ order”. Police violence should not be the invisible, accepted, baseline norm.

    We’ve a bit of an infinite regress in this mess.

  171. 171
    fuckwit says:

    @scav: You expect the leaders to lead. You expect the people vested with state power to be responsible. You expect them to be better than fucking thugs. If they act like thugs, they have ZERO moral authority to stop the thugs from acting like thugs, or to stop anyone else to start acting like thugs. There is nothing hard or complicated about this. If the police kill whomever the fuck they want to, whenever they want to, consequence-free, then they cannot expect anyone else not to kill, loot, burn, smash, or do whatever the fuck they want to. This needs to be burnd into the skull of everyone in this country. This is the whole problem. A corrupt authority is no authority at all.

  172. 172
    Elie says:

    @scav:

    Yes. But the straight facts are that the party who suffers the most from the excesses of violence — both directly and violence’s distractive power that leads to avoidance of addressing underlying issues – are black people — young black men most specifically.

    I stand by my statement: black people cannot afford the luxury of violence. We pay astronomical costs that others do not.

  173. 173
    randy khan says:

    @Judge Crater:

    Going to any kind of professional sporting event is really beyond the means of a majority of Americans. We’re talking hundreds of dollars for admission, food, drink and transportation for a small family. The ambiance at a Nats game in DC is about the same as an upscale fern bar – yuppies and well-off suburbanites drinking $10 beers and eating $8 hotdogs.

    If you’d picked any sport but baseball, I’d agree, but baseball is more or less the one professional sport where families can buy attend on a regular basis. Those Nats, for instance, offer a deal where you can get tickets, a hot dog, chips and a drink for as little as $17-$25 a person (depending on the game) – and it’s available most Saturdays and Sundays. (Of course, these days in D.C., you usually can pick up tickets for the “professional” football team’s late-season games for a song, too, but face value is not affordable.)

  174. 174
    scav says:

    @Elie: You’ve made your choice. Fine. Others are making their choices. Fine. We’ve watched the same dilemma before — it’s not a new one.

  175. 175
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Lavocat: Massachusetts voted for Reagan, both times.

    In 1980, he lost Minnesota, Maryland, DC, Rhode Island, West Virginia and Georgia. In 1984, just Minnesota and DC.

    Massachusetts and DC were the only ones that went for McGovern in ’72. (One faithless elector in Virginia voted Libertarian.)

  176. 176
    The Republic of Stupidity says:

    @Howard Beale IV: Well… unfortunately and honestly, I now automatically assume I’m being lied to when I get numbers like the unemployment rate these days…

    And there are those occasional moments when I read the FOREIGN press and am truly SHOCKED at what our beloved MSM neglects to mention all all…

    Kinda farked, if you ask me… not that you are…

  177. 177
    Misterpuff says:

    @Corner Stone: Maryland One of the most liberal states in the union? Yeah there are some rednecks but thy are out numbered and they know it. If rural counties seceded they would just add strength to WV or maybe VA not change anything in MD.

  178. 178
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @The Republic of Stupidity: That’s why I subscribe to SiriusXM in the car, where I have BBC World Service as one of my presets. I wish they’d have Al-Jazeera English instead of Fox. I never watch cable news at all. I have a 50+ entry RRS feed in Thunderbird that I have curated since 2007.

  179. 179
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Howard Beale IV: U6 includes people working part-time jobs for economic reasons, so it at least attempts to get a handle on some of the underemployed.

    In fact, that’s the biggest part of the difference between it and U3. U4 and U5 include some other types of discouraged workers, but they’re only a couple of points bigger than U3.

    I’ve been seeing people pushing alternative unemployment measures that are grossly different from all the official numbers, but I suspect most are basically Republican crankery contrived as sticks to beat Obama with (one claims that true unemployment has actually increased continuously since 2009, which just doesn’t square with what I remember from direct observation of that time as an unemployed guy).

  180. 180
    LAC says:

    @fuckwit: A fucking men!! To me, this was long overdue. There is only so much linking arms and prayer meetings and being told by dithery white folks that we got to be the noble negro and rise above it all. There are consequences, but there are people out there who are fed up and could give a fuck about consequences. Especially when you are being stopped for bullshit by a thug with a badge.

  181. 181
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @fuckwit: Until you repeal both the limited and the absolute immunity doctrine, nothing will change.

  182. 182
    LAC says:

    @Corner Stone: don’t know shit about maryland, do you?

  183. 183
    FridayNext says:

    As always, Ta-Nehisi Coates voices my feelings very well.

    Now, tonight, I turn on the news and I see politicians calling for young people in Baltimore to remain peaceful and “nonviolent.” These well-intended pleas strike me as the right answer to the wrong question.

  184. 184
    askew says:

    @El Caganer:

    Corner Stone is full of shit as always. O’Malley has cancelled his speeches in Europe to return to Baltimore. He gave a statement as soon as Gray’s murder was known and he has given multiple statements and an interview with CNN since then.

    I am not sure what he’ll be able to do but at least he gives a crap unlike some other Dems.

  185. 185
    KS in MA says:

    @FridayNext:

    Thanks. TNC nails it, as usual. That’s a great article.

  186. 186
    Xenos says:

    @Elie:

    So your solution is to just burn it down? That is the fix, your solution?

    Who is naïve? I am no pollyana. But neither am I going to waste lives and real power of the people advocating for throwing bricks. Map me the path to success with violence…

    Are you familiar with human nature? People who are treated in certain ways respond in fairly predictable ways. People who are disenfranchised and subjected to random violence will respond, eventually, by rioting. Also, people in large groups sometimes riot for no coherent reason at all.

    It is remarkably easy for authorities to trigger rioting when the situation is primed for it, and once it starts it has a life of its own. A remarkably small proportion of a population can drive this process, and it has very little to do with the legitimate political aims and projects of the community as a whole.

  187. 187
    LAC says:

    @askew: well remember. O’ malley might run against Inevitability. And that is the most important thing here, right? Someone dying, people upset… Pshaw.

  188. 188
    El Caganer says:

    @askew: That sounds more like what little I know about O’Malley. The idea that he’d bail on a situation that he’s better qualified than most to address seemed kind of queer.

  189. 189
    Karen says:

    At first I thought it would be like with Rodney King in Los Angeles. But now I’m afraid it will be more like Watts and a lot of people will die before it settles down. I live in Silver Spring which is about 30 miles or so from Baltimore. The National Guard is being called in and curfews are being enforced. The Baltimore Police have a bad history and I’m sure they’re provoking the protesters to provoke them into rioting. I understand why things get violent and while I agree with the sentiment, it only makes the police more violent.

  190. 190
    Elie says:

    @scav:

    ..and what is the meaning of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

  191. 191
    LAC says:

    @Elie: you asking this of the police?

  192. 192
  193. 193
    Keith G says:

    @Elie:

    I stand by my statement: black people cannot afford the luxury of violence. We pay astronomical costs that others do not.

    I think there always is a sad (and sometimes corrosive) residue left in the wake of violence – even violence which might be seen historically as justified.

    Before the outbreak of today’s violence, the conflict in that community was rather clearly between two sides. I am thinking that the lines of conflict may not be as clear tonight. That is part of the unfortunate residue of violence.

    It may just be that the ills faced by this community merited the scenes I have seen today. Possibly some time from now the violence and the damage occurring right now will be seen as being worth the costs because of the solutions that are generated because of this. Possibly.

    Will it matter which lessons are learned by the school-aged kids that I saw throwing rocks today?

    I don’t know, Ellie, but I do appreciate your perspective on this.

  194. 194
    The Republic of Stupidity says:

    @The Republic of Stupidity: I try to cross-reference different sources…

    I kinda figure that way I’m more likely to get something truthful out of all the chaff out there…

    I do indeed check out Al-Jazeera English from time to time and have been impressed w/ the quality of reporting and there… and yes, the BBC is always good…

    Fox News?

    What’s that famous story Bill Goldman (He wrote Butch Cassidy & the Princess Bride, amongst others) used to tell about sitting in a producer’s office… the man’s talking on the phone to someone and stops, covers the phone, and asks, “Quick Bill, which lie did I just tell?”

    I’m surprised the people at Fox can keep their lies straight, they tell so many…

    They must use something akin to score cards or cheat sheets…

  195. 195
    PIGL says:

    @Patricia Kayden: yes, of course. Sitting down and politely discussing the matter with the city fathers over tea and dumplings would be so much more effective.

  196. 196
    scav says:

    @Elie: Some would say they’ve tried letting the police self-police again and and again and again and that has been tried and found wanting and insane. Look, you’re coping with the fact that not every one agrees with you. Well, I’m sorry about that. I’m not sure which is the correct answer — rather, I’m not sure there is a single correct answer, so, No, I will not pretend that your way is the only way. Everybody gets to choose.

  197. 197
    Aleta says:

    New Orleans written/perf by Teresa Tudury.

  198. 198
    Elie says:

    @LAC:

    Obviously… but also my brothers…. who suffer the most no matter what

  199. 199
    Elie says:

    @scav:

    I agree… my way (if we want to say that) which involves non violence and the use of political power — is definitely not the only way and is certainly not the easiest way. Its also not just an individual choice.. without a doubt outcomes are experienced on the entire population — but choices that involve intentional collective action to achieve collective results have the most opportunity for long term change. I am not sure that you were saying that violence is also an effective means for change. No matter. Enough for me for tonight. Time for bed. Thanks for the conversation everyone..

  200. 200
    LAC says:

    @Elie: if you suffer no matter what, does it matter?

    Anyway, good night. Thank you. ☺️

  201. 201
    scav says:

    @Elie: Nah, not saying either was the universal correct answer, merely that both are within the range of what people have chosen in the past and, when presented with a hairball of a situation, will likely be chosen again. And I won’t pretend to put myself in a position of a moral authority about their decisions because I don’t know myself and it’s not my beeswax, nohow, besides. I can just hope hairballs full of real imperfect people can work out somehow with fewer, rather than more problems at the other end.

  202. 202
    askew says:

    @El Caganer:

    Yeah, I couldn’t see him abandoning Baltimore either. He moved back there after leaving the Governor’s mansion and he’s invested and proud of the city. I don’t know if he’ll be able to accomplish much, but anything is better than what is happening now.

  203. 203
    Plantsmantx says:

    Meghann Victoria Harris

    7 hrs · Baltimore, MD · Edited ·

    A clear narration of what my students and I just saw (and please SHARE this so people know the story): we drove into Mondawmin, knowing it was going to be a mess. I was trying to get them home before anything insane happened. The students were JUST getting out of Douglas, but before that could even happen, the police were forcing busses to stop and unload all their passengers. Then, Douglas students, in huge herds, were trying to leave on various busses but couldn’t catch any because they were all shut down. No kids were yet around except about 20, who looked like they were waiting for police to do something. The cops, on the other hand, were in full riot gear marching toward any small social clique of students who looked as if they were just milling about. It looked as if there were hundreds of cops. So, me, personally, if I were a Douglas student that just got trapped in the middle of a minefield BY cops without any way to get home and completely in harm’s way, I’d be ready to pop off, too.

    I hope everyone’s kids are getting home to them safely tonight.
    https://www.facebook.com/megha

  204. 204
    AxelFoley says:

    @srv: Wish we could stick a fork in you.

  205. 205

    […] HT to John at Balloon Juice. […]

  206. 206
    Judge Crater says:

    @Roger Moore: I’m not talking about the one percent who go to games, I’m talking the average family or individual. When I go to a Nats game I spend a minimum of $50 for one person. And thats a cheap ticket and taking the Metro, no $25 parking.

    What working class family can afford that more than once or twice a year?

  207. 207
    SFAW says:

    @Judge Crater:

    What working class family can afford that more than once or twice a year?

    Well, if they worked HARDER, they could, those lazy @#$%^&s.

  208. 208
    liberal says:

    @fuckwit:
    Yeah, Mandela wasn’t a peaceful activist. “Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”

  209. 209
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @PIGL: Well, we’ll see if burning down stores and police cars and throwing rocks at police will be successful. There is nothing wrong with a peaceful protest where the aim is to bring accountability for the death of Mr. Gray. I doubt violence is going to be the answer and many Black Baltimore residents are saying the same thing.

    @Lavocat: You do realize that Black rioters are no match for armed police officers and the National Guard, right? Dr. King was smart to advocate nonviolence as a way to fight injustice. It worked in the 60s and it can work now.

  210. 210
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @sparrow: The Baltimore rioters didn’t kill any cops (or any one else). But I get your point.

  211. 211
    Paul in KY says:

    @Violet: They are Peruvian granite with hints of marble. Very nice, I hear.

  212. 212
    Paul in KY says:

    @Lavocat: That was his re-election. He didn’t beat Pres. Carter that bad. Was a sad day when that genial seeming cretin was elected.

  213. 213
    Paul in KY says:

    @Elie: The black people in that neighborhood need to be the ones stopping the young hoodlums from trashing their place.

  214. 214
    Sherparick says:

    @RP: At least he watched the “The Wire.” By the way, anyone who followed that show or has read Simon’s non-fiction essays or Ta-Nehsi Coates essays cannot be surprised by the events in Baltimore.

  215. 215
    Plantsmantx says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Dr. King was smart to advocate nonviolence as a way to fight injustice. It worked in the 60s and it can work now.

    So, you think demonstrators should engage in civil disobedience with the goal of provoking police violence toward them?

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