Mike Pence is shocked, shocked at the pushback and furor he was told would happen if he signed RFRA:
Gov. Mike Pence, scorched by a fast-spreading political firestorm, told The Star on Saturday that he will support the introduction of legislation to “clarify” that Indiana’s controversial Religious Freedom Restoration Act does not promote discrimination against gays and lesbians.
“I support religious liberty, and I support this law,” Pence said in an exclusive interview. “But we are in discussions with legislative leaders this weekend to see if there’s a way to clarify the intent of the law.”
The governor, although not ready to provide details on what the new bill will say, said he expects the legislation to be introduced into the General Assembly this coming week.
Asked if that legislation might include making gay and lesbian Hoosiers a protected legal class, Pence said, “That’s not on my agenda.”
He went on This Week to clarify and do damage control:
Indiana’s controversial Religious Freedom Restoration Act will not be changing despite critics saying it allows business owners to discriminate against members of the LGBT community, state Gov. Mike Pence said today during an exclusive interview on ABC’s “This Week.”
Pence described the media coverage and opposition to the law as “shameless rhetoric,” saying it strengthens the foundation of First Amendment rights rather than discriminates.
“We’re not going to change the law,” he said, “but if the general assembly in Indiana sends me a bill that adds a section that reiterates and amplifies and clarifies what the law really is and what it has been for the last 20 years, than I’m open to that.”
When ABC’s George Stephanopoulos asked Pence if the law allowed businesses like florists to refuse to work with gay or lesbian weddings, as critics have said, the governor said the situation has more to do with whether the government is involved.
“The question here is if there is a government action or a law that an individual believes impinges on their religious liberty, they have the opportunity to go to court, just as the Religious Freedom and Reformation Act that Bill Clinton signed allowed them, to go to court and the court would evaluate the circumstance under the standards articulated in this act,” Pence said.
Pence, a Republican, signed the Indiana Religious Freedom and Restoration Act into Indiana law Thursday. It intends to prevent the government from infringing on individual’s religious beliefs, Pence said, but opponents say the law allows business owners to use religion as a reason to legally discriminate against members of the LGBT community.
You’ll note he didn’t answer the question, even when George pressed him again. He can’t answer the question, because the answer is obviously “Yes, florists can now discriminate legally against gay people.” Just ask the author of the bill:
.@brianeason @indystartony @indystar great find, I like this bit from @Sen_Schneider pic.twitter.com/F0W8RqJXSJ
— ReidDA (@ReidDA) March 28, 2015
He’s stuck, and he doesn’t know what to do, so he will keep denying and deflecting while Indiana loses millions of dollars in business and travel and tourism. It is always important to remember, that when discussing Mike Pence, that he is really, really, stupid, and that Matt Yglesias nailed this fact long ago:
There are very few members of congress with whom I’ve ever had the opportunity to discuss a substantive matter of public policy. But as it happens, one of them — the one with whom I’ve had the second-longest exchange — is Mike Pence (R-IN) who I’ve seen on television today repeatedly discussing the Republican Study Group’s “plan” for the financial crisis. And I can tell you this about Mike Pence: he has no idea what he’s talking about. The man is a fool, who deserves to be laughed at. He’s almost stupid enough to work in cable television.
Specifically, way back in 2005 I got to talk to him about Social Security privatization at a Heritage Foundation event. Obviously, I have my perspective on this and conservatives have theirs. But Pence had a truly peculiar idea. His idea was that the government ought to reassure people about the risks of losses under a privatization plan by having the government guarantee a minimum annuity level pegged to what’s promised under current law. This plan would, according to Pence, save money relative to current law because most people’s stock/bond portfolio would outperform the level needed to provide such an annuity, so the government would only need to kick in for a minority of people. I said I thought this would create a moral hazard problem for bad investors. He had no idea what I was talking about. Seemed unfamiliar with the term. Then I tried to explain it to him, I said that if the government guaranteed to bail you out in case of losses, then investors would make riskier investments and the number of people who need bailing out would rise. He just flat-out denied this, said the presence or absence of a guaranteed bailout would have no impact on investor behavior. He seemed unaware that some portfolios are riskier than others, or that higher average rates of return are associated with greater risk taking. He didn’t know anything at all, in short, about investing, financial markets, or, seemingly, the basic terms of public policy. And yet there he was speaking on the topic at Heritage. He’s a total fraud.
Which is all by way of introducing CAP VP for Economic Policy Michael Ettlinger’s critique of the Pence far-right crisis “plan” which, as you’ll see, is also utterly fraudulent. If cable news networks were run by people with any conscience, any sense of obligation or ethics, they would be treating this plan and its author as the joke they are. But of course they aren’t run by people with any conscience or any sense of ethics, so it’s all just treated as another subject for debate.
That was 2008, and I think the evidence shows he has not gotten brighter in the interim.
Cervantes
Yes.
Villago Delenda Est
Down in Georgia, a Republican (!) attached an amendment to the Georgia version of this crap that would specifically not allow discrimination, and the sponsors tabled the amended bill because the amendment would “gut” it.
I am not making this up. That’s what they said.
wmd
Mike Pence makes Dan Quayle look intelligent. I say this as someone who once had a “HEAD – Hoosiers Embarrassed About Dan” bumpersticker.
mellowjohn
oh, how i miss doghouse riley in times like these.
Suzanne
I deeply enjoy watching arrogant people realize that they and/or their attitudes became unpopular when they weren’t looking.
It’s a special joy, watching old bigots realize that their time has passed.
JPL
Gov. Pence believes that those who object are the intolerant ones. Hoosiers are nice and kind people. Also George asked him several times whether or not businesses could discriminate and he refused to answer.
Mediate has a clip of the interview but ABC news has the entire interview.
Cervantes
@mellowjohn:
Me, too.
Or at any time, really.
dmsilev
@Villago Delenda Est: Well, I suppose we should be grateful that they’re honest about their bigotry.
One of our pet trolls the other day was claiming that Indiana’s law was no big deal because Illinois had something similar on the books. The difference, as the local (rather conservative in the old-school sense) newspaper took pains to point out is that Illinois _also_ has an antidiscrimination law which includes sexual orientation as one of the protected classes, and the anti-discrimination requirements trump the religious freedom ones.
Bobby B.
I’m shocked, shocked, that this “Casablanca” reference hasn’t been retired yet.
Villago Delenda Est
The entire purpose of this bill is to allow Jeebofascists to give a big public “fuck you” to gays and lesbians, to let their hatred flag fly with full legal protection. It’s like the police looking the other way (or actually joining in) as you smash the windows of Jewish businesses in Berlin in 1938…and then press the insurance companies not to pay the claims of the businesses that were attacked.
dmsilev
@Suzanne: What’s especially fun to watch is the reaction when the blowback from various large corporations started to arrive. The GOP is caught between their professed religion (Christianity) and their true religion (corporate worship) and they don’t know what to do…
Sherparick
Nor have the people who run cable news become any more ethical.
ThresherK
George Snuffleupagus asked him twice?
When a Villager like that gets brave enough to think Pence has gone too far…
scav
People expressing their moral outrage at Indiana is just so un-fair and unexpected and <stomp stomp stomp> stop it now.
Suzanne
@dmsilev: I’m really enjoying this pants-pissing he’s doing. I am a bad enough person to take extreme glee in it.
I already admitted to being an asshole, so please don’t tell me again. I already know.
Jay C
@dmsilev:
Yes, it’s a big tell that Gov. Pence’s “response” to questions about discrimination in the Indiana RFRA was a bland, non-responsive cliche like “Hoosiers don’t discriminate”: so one is to suppose that those “Christian” business-owners across the state who are probably already busy printing up their “We Don’t Serve Faggots” signs (and you just know, we’ll be seeing some of those before too long!) are all out-of-staters?
JPL
@ThresherK: George actually asked him yes or no twice but tried to get him to clarify the law several other times. Since I think hoosiers are assholes for supporting the legislation, I’m the intolerant one.
Gidy51
@wmd: HEAP Hoosiers Embarrassed About Pence, you could make a million bucks with this one right now.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jay C: Well, I don’t think they’ll put up the signs. Instead, they’ll confront suspected faggots in their places of business and then revel in asking them, impolitely, to vacate said place of business, because we don’t serve YOUR kind here.
OTOH, other businesses, being smarter than the average “Christian”, will put up rainbow placards and invite gays and lesbians to partake of their fine goods and services. And thrive.
dmbeaster
Also missing from this discussion is how the Indiana law also wipes out local anti-discrimination laws, which was also an issue with the recently tabled Georgia legislation. It really does act to danction bigotry.
Walker
If the NCAA were to actually pull out over this (unlikely), I think you would see the fastest recall election ever held.
Suzanne
@Villago Delenda Est: I kinda like this as a strategy: instead of boycotting the whole state, I like a more surgical approach—encouraging business owners to put the stickers up, then boycott the ones that don’t. Then not only do the assholes lose business, they get to see it go directly to their competitors in town, and they get to see on a local level how society doesn’t favor their position. A boycott of the state is more faceless and isn’t as personally humiliating. I am all about humiliating these fuckers.
dmbeaster
“Sanction” – cant seem to edit from my phone
shell
Hey John, have you ever been to Norfolk? Last nights Prairie Home Companion show was from there and Keillor was singing it’s praises.
MattF
Well, Pence evidently has no idea what he’s talking about, ever. And he’s puzzled that anyone thinks he’s doing something wrong– he just wants to be agreeable to those nice-but-demanding folks who tell him what to do, and then give him money to run for political offices. How could anyone object to that?
Thunderbird
@Walker: Unfortunately, there is no recall mechanism here in Indiana. (Hoosier by birth, Boilermaker by the grace of FSM here)
F
Republicans like to claim that Democrats are the real sexist and racists, but I’ve never heard one even attempt to claim that we are the real homophobes.
Kropadope
So, they won’t change the law to disallow discrimination, but they will introduce to the law books a “clarification” that says “this isn’t intended to allow discrimination” and, again, changes nothing.
Republicans, it’s never about the policy, it’s about the messaging.
shell
Yes, cause we can always count on Wall Street acting sensibly and prudently, always with their customers best interests at heart.
raven
Cruz did a big thing about how the “left media” categorizes republicans as either stupid or evil. Yea, and. . .
Villago Delenda Est
@shell: Given that Wall Street’s true customers are the parasite scum of .001%, why are you the slightest bit surprised?
scav
@Suzanne: No reason it’s got to be one or the other — probably better that it’s both. Going after the entire state, especially by the bigger actors (corporations, conferences, et al) is critical for changing the actions of politicians (in IN and other states) and mainstreaming the recognition that religiously justified bigotry is not generally accepted social behavior, while the targeted stuff locally gets at the voters and storm-troopers for inter-prersonal intolerance.
MikeBoyScout
For the first time in a long, long, long time there was an interview on the Sunday Shows which was illuminating.
good for George.
Kropadope
@raven: @raven:
and how unicorns are oppressing good Christians and how cockatrices are denying the freedoms of real Americans.
MattF
@shell: ‘Working in their customer’s best interests’ isn’t even true in principle. I wonder how many people realize that.
azlib
The real intent may be to wipe out local anti-discrimination ordinances. I was on the Austin City Council in 1986 when we passed a fair housing ordinance which included gays and lesbians as a protected class. It passsed 7-0. We did have the usual right wing bigots protesting, but that was before Texas became a Republican bastion and the evangelical right was just getting started. They had little effect in liberal Austin at the time. I suspect these days the usual bigots just go to their favorite legislature to overturn local ordinances.
Arizona where I live now at least had a governor veto similar legislation here last here. Keep in mind that governor was Jan Brewer – hardly a paragon of liberal virtue. She at least listened to the blow back from the business community and sensibly vetoed the bill.
Pogonip
Attention Indiana gays, lesbians, not-sures, and everyone else! Patronize Pogonip! If your money’s not fake, Pogonip will sell you the cake!
Atencion Cole! Quisieramos un pupdate, por favor. Y como esta Ginget?
Baud
Probably thought moral hazard had something to do with gays.
Baud
@raven:
That’s just not true. Some of them are both.
Suzanne
@scav: Good call.
Having spent many years in a rather religiously conservative and racist part of AZ (and no, it is not all like that), I spent a long time feeling like the marginalized weirdo among a whole crowd of assholes. I took sweet, sweet pleasure from watching these people find that the tables have been turned on them the minute they left their little enclave. When they realize that hate and small-mindedness is the intellectual equivalent of crapping one’s pants in public and that people looked at them with a mix of curiosity and scorn, I just…..SO HAPPY. I really want them to feel as awkward and ostracized and persecuted as they have made others feel. I want society to move on without them, and for them to realize it.
I remember my old bigot grandfather watching some sign of the apocalypse on TV (it was something like a lesbian couple being happy in public or something) and saying, “I’ve lived too long.” THAT is the reaction I’m going for here.
geg6
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Hey Pence, your slip is showing. Fuck this asshole and fuck Indianans. Everyone has to feel the pain or nothing changes. Don’t vote in dicks and no one will give a shit about Indiana, just like it was before your idiot governor signed this piece of crap. When Jan Brewer and Arizona show more intelligence and business smarts than you, you are wallowing in vats of stupid.
Gin & Tonic
I must be slow, but I just can’t imagine why a small business, presumably existing to make its owners a profit, would turn away a client. I’ve bought flowers for two weddings. They are not inexpensive, and I’m assuming there’s a good profit margin in there.
Corner Stone
@Suzanne:
Good in spirit, but a little harder to execute with a Wal-Mart in every town. It’s pretty bad when Wal-Mart is even competing against the local meth lab entrepreneurial job creators.
MikeBoyScout
just asking ……
Any chance we could see the NCAA Final Four games in Indianapolis, IN turn into a gargantuan Rainbow protest on national TV?
Would seem entirely doable, no?
JPL
Gotta say, I am tempted to send Pence a shovel and say keep on digging.
Corner Stone
@Walker:
One of two outcomes, IMO. If the NCAA stated that no future tourny games would be scheduled in IN, the people would either burn down the legislature as a gesture of sacrifice to the NCAA overlords or the people would collectively pull a Victimhood en Extremis and give everyone the Jesus middle finger.
JPL
@geg6: See your intolerance is showing. lol
When do you pick up Lovey?
delk
Montana just pulled their version. Mikey has the spotlight all to himself, I hope he has a decent supply of tap shoes because it’s going to be a long time before the ‘ol Buddy Ebsen Bring It Home moment’ happens.
Montana Gov. Steve Bullock: “What’s happening in Indiana is something that shouldn’t be happening in Montana. We don’t need laws like that imported into our state.”
BOOM
http://www.politicususa.com/2015/03/28/montana-house-refuses-follow-red-states-religious-freedom-rabbit-hole.html
Suzanne
@Gin & Tonic: It’s because of social pressure. It’s the same reason businesses turned away black people under Jim Crow—some white customers didn’t want to patronize businesses frequented by THOSE PEOPLE, so the business owners decided to forego a small amount of profit in order to hang onto a bigger one. This strategy breaks down when even the dominant classes THINK YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE.
Corner Stone
@azlib:
Austin is not all that liberal, at least not to the level everyone here seems to believe, and hasn’t been for some time. The infestation from CA started it, IMO, and then the resulting creeping commercialization of every former indie event continued it.
gf120581
Pence is basically Dan Quayle, just more articulate, since he started out as a radio talking head. But yeah, he’s dumb as a post.
His 2016 reelection is now in serious jeopardy.
Corner Stone
@gf120581:
Due to regular people in the state being embarrassed by this showing, or because the fundies are pissed he may waffle on it and not stand loud and proud with them?
Fred
@raven: Republicans either stupid or evil? The two are not mutually exclusive.
BGinCHI
If you really want to know what’s going on in the trenches, keep your eye on major IN political figures and businesses (these are usually overlapping).
For example, Bill Oesterle (full disclosure: we went to college together, lived in the same house, but were not friends because he was a conservative asshole) who is the CEO of Angie’s List, was also Mitch Daniels’ campaign manager. You can find his comments on the new law at TPM and elsewhere: he is forcefully against it. That is the Bottom Line talking, and it is IN GOP establishment fighting back at the idiots who are rocking the money-filled boat.
And note that Oesterle waited for other businesses to go first (SalesForce, etc.). A bit of cover before a man who has lots of sway made his comments.
This may well rip the IN GOP apart. Rooting for major injuries and catastrophic results.
Also, note that the Indy Star is ACTUALLY covering this pretty well. That is a right-wing paper owned by Marilyn Quayle’s family.
geg6
@JPL:
;-).
As for Lovey, it should be another couple of weeks. Thankfully, the weather should be good for constant going in and out of the house until she gets used to things. Wouldn’t want to be running home at lunch for potty breaks in subzero weather and ice and snow.
pseudonymous in nc
@dmbeaster:
You get to see GOP “small government” principles at work across the US in the number of bills that strike down local ordinances, whether on zoning or environmental controls or discrimination. The ostensible reason is to “clarify” laws so that bidness doesn’t have to deal with a “morass” of local restrictions. That is, ALEC and its cohorts have bought up state legislatures, and they don’t want to pay extra for city halls, so they want cities and counties to have zero-zilch-nada regulatory or legislative power.
Cervantes
@BGinCHI:
Used to be owned by Dan Quayle’s family, on his mother’s side (the Pulliams).
Now owned by Gannett.
rikyrah
Are political winds of change blowing in Chicago?
John Kass
CHICAGO TRIBUNE
jskass@chicagotribune.com
The oligarchs who run Chicago don’t want to consider the unthinkable — at least not publicly.
Yet as the campaign for mayor of Chicago between Cook County Commissioner Jesus “Chuy” Garcia and Mayor Rahm Emanuel enters its final week, some oligarchs are worried.
They’re probably wondering: What if Rahm really loses this thing?
If Rahm isn’t around to carry the city on his shoulders, will Chicago just slide into the lake, the new beach beginning somewhere along Pulaski?
The final debate is Tuesday. Debates aren’t leadership as much as performance art under pressure.
Yet in last Thursday’s debate Chuy thrashed the mayor, repeatedly, and Rahm looked weak, especially when Garcia slapped the mayor’s push for a Star Wars museum.
“The citizens of Chicago have not weighed in on this,” Garcia said. “They haven’t been asked. You don’t make those decisions by fiat. You are not king of the city.”
Isn’t being King of the City what this is all about?
And what of the Greater Oligarchia — those Rahmulan strongholds of Lincoln Park and the Gold Coast?
Will they suffer a mass epidemic of mustachiophobia, and shout, “Run for your lives!!!” every time they see a mustachioed man?
According to the polls Rahm is ahead, but I have a feeling that it will be much closer than the Rahmulans, or their spinners, want to admit.
‘
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-kass-chicago-mayor-36th-ward-met-0329-20150329-column.html
scav
@BGinCHI: This is rather an interesting specific engagement on the general battleground of Big Business Republicans v. Moral Absolutist Republicans.
Iowa Old Lady
Forgive me for going OT here, but my brother just sent me email pointing out that Stephen King has a novel coming out in June with the same title mine is supposed to have in May. I emailed my small publisher and we’ll see what they say, but I’m guessing this is about a million dollars worth of free publicity, assuming it doesn’t generate bad feelings.
Honest to god, my book has had this title since I started to draft it three years ago.
Cervantes
@Iowa Old Lady:
If I were you I might withdraw that comment.
Iowa Old Lady
@Cervantes: OK. I just sent the request for deletion, though I’m so rattled I forgot to fill in the reason. I’ll just say publishing is a difficult world.
mai naem mobile
I’m watching MSNBC and they’ve got on a guy who served with Bergdahl. Jeezus, Bergdahl may have been a screw up and fucked up big time but this guys being a real dick. Apparently the Taliban hostage videos of Bergdahl are to be considered accurate and his dad’s videos also can not take into consideration that he wanted his son back alive. Hope this douche or his loved ones never becomes a hostage.
gbear
@Jay C: @Villago Delenda Est:
I think that the businesses who don’t want to serve gay people will put a fish sign in their window to let fellow haters know that their business is a ‘safe’ place.
WaterGirl
Dave Zirin: Why the NCAA Should Move the Final Four Out of Indiana
Keith P.
I’m predict that the “clarification” law will not get their intended results, so the following week, the legislature will repeal it and Pence will sign it, all while complaining that it ain’t fair. The reason the clarification will not work is that the intent of the law is to allow people to refuse to serve gays, and that is what is pissing people off; it isn’t about the government staying out of it – it’s the government allowing it. So they can phrase it any way they want, but it will still piss people off.
SFAW
Re: the whole stupid vs. evil question:
I prefer to think of it as: Republicans – Crazy/Stupid/Evil? Pick three!
Corner Stone
@Iowa Old Lady: Dagnabbit! Take a break to run some ladder drills and I miss all the fun!
Was it lurid, vulgar and completely outrageous?
Botsplainer
@JPL:
Depends. The people in the parts of the cities and counties closest to the media market that serves the People’s Democratic Socialist Republic of Louisville seem nice – seems to a a function of the cross-border transplants and economic necessity, however. The rest of Southern Indiana seems composed mainly of Klukkers and the descendants of the immigrant sons and daughters of Bavarian peasants. Indianapolis seems to be a city composed mainly of chain restaurants, chain retail and chain house design. I think Mike Royko described the whole city as a giant suburb.
I guess the Northwest counties bordering Chicago are probably kind of OK…
Not Adding Much to the Community
@Gin & Tonic: “I’ve bought flowers for two weddings. They are not inexpensive, and I’m assuming there’s a good profit margin in there.” Yes, but that requires you to be in the same room with those people.
Cervantes
@Corner Stone:
No, just potentially compromising.
Iowa Old Lady
@Corner Stone: No, just possibly indiscreet. I trust BJ to keep me from doing stupid things. Unless that’s the stupid thing?
jharp
@MikeBoyScout:
Great idea.
I’m available and I live about 15 minutes from Lucas Oil Stadium where the games are to be played.
Not Adding Much to the Community
@rikyrah: “According to the polls Rahm is ahead, but I have a feeling that it will be much closer than the Rahmulans, or their spinners, want to admit. ”
Oh. A horse race. How novel.
Corner Stone
@WaterGirl: I typically agree with a lot of what Zirin writes/says, and he’s usually pretty good on the MHP show. But he knows dang good and well this can’t happen due to signed contracts. The NCAA would be in litigation for months, if not years if they tried this.
Cervantes
@Iowa Old Lady:
!
Baud
@Iowa Old Lady: What could go wrong?
Comrade Dread
So what exactly does he expect a clarification to entail?
That it’s just not Christians who can refuse service to gay people, but people of all religions?
That it’s just not gay people who can be discriminated against, but interracial couples and other minorities too? Or that only gay people can be discriminated against by the public?
That it’s only okay to discriminate against the gays when it has to do with weddings?
There is no way to clarify this law that explains away the ability to discriminate because that was the bloody intent of the law.
rikyrah
because, this is who they are:
These Republicans Want to Take Away Your Weekend
Moshe Z. Marvit on March 19, 2015 – 2:45PM ET
As Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker signed the so-called “right to work” bill on March 9, making Wisconsin the twenty-fifth right-to-work state in the country, labor advocates braced themselves for the stream of anti-worker bills that were almost certain to follow. Many assumed the first target would be Wisconsin’s 1930s prevailing wage laws, which require that workers on public works projects be paid the established going rate for their labor, rather than allowing contractors to try to outbid each other by lowering workers’ wages. Few, however, expected the legislative cluster bomb that is currently being referred to committee by a pair of Republicans: a bill to repeal the weekend.
Though labor often boasts that it helped codify the two-day work break—witness the popular pro-labor bumper sticker, “Unions: the folks that brought you the weekend”—a day of rest is protected by law in only a fraction of the states. According to the Society for Human Resource Management, thirteen states have laws mandating a day of rest for some or all workers. In states that mandate a day of rest only for certain categories of workers, those workers are often in jobs where fatigue could lead to increased accidents or deaths.
Now that might be about to come to an end in Wisconsin.
Currently, the law in Wisconsin requires that workers employed in a “factory or mercantile establishment” must receive “at least 24 consecutive hours of rest in every 7 consecutive days.” If an employer would like a worker to work seven days in a row for a limited period of time, then the two can jointly petition the Department of Workforce Development for a waiver. According to the office of Republican Representative Mark Born, who is introducing this bill in the State Assembly, there were 169 waivers requested in 2013 and 232 in 2014, and all of them were granted. Under the current system, the waiver requests must state the necessity for the waiver, and they are granted only for a limited period of time.
The new bill, which is being sponsored by Republican Van Wanggaard in the State Senate alongside Born in the Assembly, would add a provision to the “day of rest” law that could effectively nullify it. The bill would create an exemption that would allow employees to “voluntarily choose” to slave away for seven days in a row without at least twenty-four hours of rest.
Representative Born’s office played down the magnitude of the bill, arguing that it merely “codified into law the waiver system and made it easier for employers and employees to make work schedules.” But this new law cuts the regulatory body out of the equation, relying instead on the troubled notion that employers would allow employees to choose “voluntarily” to give up any day of rest. As Marquette University law professor Paul Secunda explained, the idea “completely ignores the power dynamic in the workplace, where workers often have a proverbial gun to the head.” Indeed, the reason Wisconsin had passed a “day of rest” law in the first place was because employers had been abusing employees by pressing them to work too many days without break. “Now this bill will force many workers to strike a bargain with the devil,” Secunda said.
I met with Democratic State Senator Chris Larson to discuss the bill. The bill does not yet have a title, so Larson jokingly refers to it as the “Abolishing the Sabbath Act.” But the bill is no joke, Larson said, and represents an alarming trend in Wisconsin politics. Senator Larson pointed to a large painting hanging on his wall of the famous progressive era politician Robert La Follette, whose legacy, he said, had long inspired him. “But right now, we’re in the regressive era of politics.”
http://m.thenation.com/article/201817-these-republicans-want-take-away-your-weekend
Corner Stone
@Iowa Old Lady: Oh. Well as I’ve said before, I don’t care to know anymore about a commenter than they share. But I was hoping it was something about you having pics of Pence having group sex with dead boddys. Or maybe making snuff films and turning group sex partners into said dead boddys.
And how you escaped some vile scene as same by your wits and gumption, but unfortunately sans pants. Dignity intact!
WaterGirl
@Corner Stone: I like Dave ZIrin a lot, and ‘m sure what you’re saying is true.
But what if they just threatened to try it? Or made noises about trying it?
Corner Stone
@Iowa Old Lady: There’s never anything wrong with trusting BJ.
Iowa Old Lady
@Cervantes: @Baud: Exactly!
@Corner Stone: How did you know it was that pants thing?
Corner Stone
@WaterGirl: That’s similar to what I speculated above on this. If NCAA stated that future events would not be scheduled in IN while this law was on the books, what would the people of IN do? Basketball to IN, especially smaller locales (as I am led to believe) is akin to what football is to small town TX.
Botsplainer
Just caught the end of Predator while at the Y. I always forget how tight the storyline was and how great the sense of adventure was in that. Likeable characters who don’t really make mistakes, an inexplicable malevolent presence.
My only quibble is in why a society that mastered the tech for insterstellar or inter dimensional travel (or at least stumbled upon someone else’s and could master the operation) would still be into trophy hunting.
WaterGirl
@Corner Stone: I think this law will be gone in a month, and I hope that’s not just wishful thinking.
Corner Stone
@Iowa Old Lady: Roughly 62.7% of commenters here are not wearing pants at any given time.
JDM
Here’s what I’d like Gov. Spence to clarify: if the law “has been for the last 20 years” (“clarifies what the law really is and what it has been for the last 20 years”) why did you need a new law? Did the old one get worn out from overuse, or was it atrophied from disuse? Should you assign someone to take laws for walkies so they have the right amount of exercise?
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Iowa Old Lady:
If you want advice rather than just to vent, you could just say “a popular author” without saying the other person’s name or the shared book title.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I’m not sure you’re being helpful by being so specific with your comment there, Mnem. It was deleted for a reason.
Corner Stone
@Botsplainer:
What?! Have you even watched the movie? “Likeable” is not a characteristic I’d assign to those individuals.
And all of them make mistakes. They rely on rigid rules of engagement expecting a known enemy force. From the very beginning it was obvious they were outclassed.
Iowa Old Lady
@Mnemosyne (tablet): I think the best thing is to wait and see what my publisher says about this.
Botsplainer
@Corner Stone:
If Indiana cared that much about hoops, they’d come up with money for better coaching and a better facility. They only loved Bobby Knight because he was a raging asshole, and have had a tantrum ever since,
BGinCHI
@Cervantes: I guess you aren’t aware of who wears the pantaloons in that family.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@Iowa Old Lady:
Would you be more comfortable if I delete my comment as well?
rikyrah
I still say don’t count out the Bush Crime Family
……………………………..
Jeb Bush’s Nightmare Scenario
Bush is expected to be a formidable contender for the GOP nomination. But there are signs that his biography will lead to struggles in the primary’s early stages.
BY JOSH KRAUSHAAR
But there are signs that a worst-case, crash-and-burn scenario for Bush is more realistic than even his skeptics recognize. He’s underperforming in early public polls and is receiving a frosty reception from Republican focus groups. His entitled biography is at odds with the Republican Party’s increasing energy from working-class voters, who relate best with candidates who have struggled to make ends meet. The Bush name is a reminder of the past at a time when GOP voters are desperate for new faces. And after losing two straight presidential elections, Republican voters are thinking much more strategically—and aren’t nearly as convinced as the political press that Bush is the strongest contender against Hillary Clinton.
It would be foolish to over-read the results of focus groups, but it’s equally egregious to ignore their findings—especially given that they’re paired with polls that show Bush’s candidacy a tough sell among voters. Last week, Bloomberg and Purple Strategies cosponsored a New Hampshire panel of 10 Republicans, most of whom were hostile to a Bush presidential bid. “I know enough to know I don’t need to keep voting for a Bush over and over again,” one participant said. Several laughed at the notion that he’s the front-runner. Not a single one said they’d support him for president.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/against-the-grain/jeb-bush-s-nightmare-scenario-20150324
Corner Stone
That kid for the Spartans name is really “Lourawls Nairn, Jr.?”
JR?
raven
OK, light this bad boy up!
Walker
@rikyrah:
Wisconsonites deserve everything they get. They had several chances.
(And the Governer has sullied my name)
Cervantes
@BGinCHI:
Or on which part of their body.
No, truly, I don’t know — nor do I want to.
Iowa Old Lady
@Mnemosyne (tablet): Probably it’s a good idea. Thank you.
Corner Stone
@rikyrah:
Until he’s the GOP nom and then all 10 will do what we all do, and vote for the candidate.
Corner Stone
@raven: “Light ’em up, up, up!” Light ’em up, up, up!”
“I’m on FIYAH!”
gbear
@rikyrah: I feel sorry for my sister who was transplanted from Minneapolis to Green Bay when her husband wanted to move closer to his family. She freakin’ HATES Walker and what is happing to her state. I wish she could talk him into moving back to MN.
It’s horrifying to watch what is going on in Wisconsin. I shouldn’t feel this way, but I’m almost to the point now where I’d like to see a total collapse of the state due to the incredibly brutal management by the governor and legislature, propped up by an arch-conservative judicial wing. Wisconsin used to be such a great state. It’s amazing how swiftly it fell into total wingnutia.
Corner Stone
@gbear: Who the F votes to give away the weekend?
I mean, I work most weekends but it’s still a “good thing” for a whole bunch of people to be able to more or less count on.
Corner Stone
Nasty entrance pass!!
Corner Stone
Great post up defense by Lville.
fuckwit
@Jay C: Notice too the PR-handler-trained spin he tried to do by putting this back on George’s old boss, Clinton. “Well Clinton did it too! So leave Britneey alooooone!!”
It’s 2015 not 1993. Attitudes have changed. We’ve moved forward as a country, and Pence is whining about it.
Botsplainer
I really wish they’d quit yammering about Chris Fucking Jones.
Guy was a poison team influence.
gbear
@Corner Stone: I agree. It’s insane and evil to even propose a bill like that. Only a complete asshole would do that.
Baud
@gbear: Can’t help feeling the same way about Kansas, and they’ve been wingnutty for quite some time.
Emily68
Nick Hanauer tweets why the Indiana law is such a bad idea.
http://horsesass.org/twitter-is-burning-up-over-nick-hanauers-exhortation-to-lgbt-people-to-flee-indiana-and-move-to-seattle/
BGinCHI
@Emily68: That is epic. They should move to Chicago, though. We have better beer, pizza, and our ocean is delightfully salt-free.
MattF
@rikyrah: I do want to see how Rove & Co. deal with Cruz. God knows I’m no fan of McCain, but what they did to old John in 2000 was just horrendous.
Corner Stone
@Emily68: His tweets are interesting but I think this part:
Is a radical oversimplification.
Baud
@Corner Stone: On Twitter no less.
Corner Stone
@MattF:
Cruz will blow himself up and is no threat to Jeb. They will keep undermining Walker and keep all the money buckets out of NJ.
Corner Stone
@Baud: It was a tweet storm, so not just a simple one off. But yes, given the medium oversimplification is to be expected and sometimes tolerated. But saying SF loves the gays and that’s why they are a premium destination city is more than a little silly.
The four cities he names have a few other things in common that people seem to choose, when they can.
Mnemosyne
@Iowa Old Lady:
I missed the edit window, but I’ll email JC to see if he can manually delete it. You may want to ask one of our many published authors (Frankensteinbeck, JoyceH, BGinCHI, just for starters) if you can email them offline if you want a second opinion about publishing questions.
Botsplainer
@BGinCHI:
Love your pizza, but blue water has to include salt…
Corner Stone
Listen, guy in commercial. The presence of a Y chromosome makes folding a fitted sheet a physical impossibility.
It.Cant.Be.Done!
MattF
@Corner Stone: Well, the threat is that the right wing of the right wing will all go for Ted– leaving Jeb! with the ‘rational’ wing of the party. Which is not a viable strategy, and I think they know that.
Botsplainer
@Corner Stone:
You wad them up into a ball and shove them into the back linen closet. Everyone knows this, as I just explained to wife. She said “I know that’s what you do – you’re an idiot who can’t fold one”.
MattF
@Corner Stone: That’s a theorem in topology.
Iowa Old Lady
@Mnemosyne: Thanks. It was entirely my own fault for posting before I thought.
Botsplainer
That 3 from the top of the key was a thing of beauty.
Baud
@Corner Stone:
I cringed at this one: “LGBT people are different. They are uncommonly creative, and innovative. Thus, they lead in many creative endeavors and industries.”
Pride is one thing, but it’s hard to believe that this type of rhetoric is helpful.
gogol's wife
@Bobby B.:
The Casablanca reference will never be retired, since it is immortal.
Baud
@MattF:
You mean this one?
MattF
@Baud: I like this one better:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6g3ZcmjJ7k&spfreload=10
Corner Stone
I am never buying a Buick.
There, I said it. Now please to make the awful commercials go away?
bemused
I like Booman’s description of Pence, he’s kind of an asshole, surrounded by assholes getting all his feedback from assholes..it’s like he’s living in a giant colon.
Baud
@MattF: A bit more painful, no?
Woodrowfan
when he first ran for Congress 2-+ years ago he ran a really racist TV ad with some guy dressed an a stereotypical TV Arab thanking Pence’s opponent for his support. Pence lost. Later he sort of apologized claiming that hey,. Democrats always run nasty ads, so he thought he could run one too.
he’s ALWAYS been clueless…
PaulW
I am waiting to see how many Christian churches in Indiana will put up signs saying they welcome gays.
It angers me when the defenders of these BS laws get to stand up and play the martyr that “oh, we’re getting picked on for being Christians,” and I want, WE NEED to see other Christians stand up and say “you’re not martyrs, you’re assholes.”
opiejeanne
@gbear: Why should they get to co-opt the fish symbol? I guess the way around that is for Christian businesses that do not discriminate could put up a rainbow fish?
WaterGirl
@Baud: well played.
WaterGirl
@PaulW: And they’ll know we are christians by our love, by our love…
Jesus would be turning over in his grave, if he had been in one.
Mandalay
Pence had an interesting crowd at the invitation-only signing ceremony.
Frankensteinbeck
@PaulW:
Tolerant Christians do stand up and say they want no part of this hate and these other sects are giving Christianity a bad name. They are not heard. You can come up with your own reasons why. I personally favor a combination of ‘crazy assholes scream louder’ and ‘the media has nothing against gays personally, but thinks they’re icky and would rather they go back in the closet.’
MattF
@Mandalay: Seriously. They actually distributed that pic without anyone saying “Um, wait a sec…”
delk
@Mandalay: I think those are Carmelites. Google says there are 30,000 of them world wide. Google also says my neighborhood in Chicago has a population of 34,000.
Pogonip
@Woodrowfan: @Corner Stone: I can’t do it either and I don’t have a Y chromosome. I roll them up like a sleeping bag.
Gravenstone
@Corner Stone:
Typical Walker move. he didn’t discuss any intent to implement the proposed bill. It simply appears once he’s secure in his office. Just like Act 10 was never so much as hinted at during his first run at the governorship. Then once elected, he gets his Republican co-conspirators to whip it through the legislature, and Bam – fuck you unions!
ThresherK
@Frankensteinbeck: The whole “tolerant Christians” thing doesn’t fly on the teevee. I know some Christians worthy of the name. Whenever anything hits through that Christian means more than ‘Christianist’, it’s dumbfuggery.
“Would you believe there are some Christians* who use contraception and have abortions?” is delivered in a perfect Kent Brockman voice reserved for “Can you imagine that this owner got his parrot to talk to Siri?”
The only diff being that Christians and Catholics do that all the time. The number of budgies who control a voice-controlled smartphone is slightly fewer.
(*Substitute “Catholics” in this, or many other, questions.)
ETA: “The media thinks gays and lesbians are icky” is great, simply because “icky” has also been the best word to describe the press’ take on contraception, abortion and womens’ self-determination.
schrodinger's cat
When you make fun of evangelicals it gives Kristoff a huge sad.
WaterGirl
@Pogonip: I used to fold fitted sheets very precisely. Then they started making sheets with the extra deep pockets, in which case I say fuck it and kinda sorta try to fold it.
Turner Hedenkoff
As an aside to the Georgia legislation: When it was tabled, favorite BJ punching bag and Georgia’s official Most Embarrassing Export, Erick Erickson, hit the roof — and even some of his old allies are sick of the guy.
Mnemosyne (tablet)
@delk:
As I said when that picture was first posted, I hope they at least got a trip to McDonalds before they were bused back to the cloister. Those are not the habits of nuns who have a lot of contact with the outside world.
Woodrowfan
folding a fitted sheet is easy. I hand it to my wife and ask “can you please fold this sweetie.”
She kind of folds it/rolls it up, I hold a pillow case open and she stuffs it in. bingo, it’s done!
WaterGirl
@Woodrowfan: Yeah, the pillow case idea is kind of clever, but what do you do with the pillowcase with the sheet in it?
Tree With Water
Yglesias should teach a rhetoric & writing course designed specifically for democratic party representatives.
PurpleGirl
@Corner Stone: Who gives away the weekend… well, back in the bad old days bosses would say:
“If you don’t come in on Saturday (and a half a day on Sunday), don’t come in on Monday.”
J R in WV
@Botsplainer:
This is just straight out wrong. All water is blue, even though in a glass it looks clear and colorless. I had a swimming pool, painted brilliant white. But when filled with 4 feet of water, it was pale blue. People wouldn’t believe the paint was stark plain old white.
This is also why the sky is blue – the water vapor floating the the atmosphere changes the sunlight from white to blue. Don’t take my word for it, look it up. And salt has nothing to do with blue ocean, nor why the Great Lakes (notice that: lakes, not seas) are blue.
gene108
@fuckwit:
The 1993 RFRA was to allow Native Americans to smoke peyote in rituals, without getting busted by the Feds. It wasn’t about dicking over gays, though it has been twisted beyond recognition by the SCOTUS.
jon
@Kropadope: It’s the Rust Monsters and the Intellect Devourers he should worry about.
jon
(Though as the link says, that convention will honor its contract even if Indiana forgets to honor the social contract known as “Don’t be an asshole.”)
Renie
@BGinCHI: I read that he is only saying he is against it because he has been pressing for tax breaks to fund the company’s expansion. Just using this to his advantage. He gave $150K to Pence’s 2012 campaign
Villago Delenda Est
@bemused: The existence of the Marquis de Mittens in a nutshell as well.
Tree With Water
@jon: Yeah, it’s rule #1 in any group’s social contract- and has been since Stanley Kubrick’s ape first began the arm’s race (that asshole).
grandpa john
@<a href="#comment-5297664" rel="nofollow": @Gravenstone: in the same fuck you way that shrub was a “compassionate conservative
E'Ville Mike
I didn’t crank thru the video, and I didn’t follow any of process in the Indiana legislature, but did anybody ever think to ask, “what religious liberty was lost that now is in need of restoration?”
I really don’t get this whole thing sometimes – aren’t we supposed to have people who work for news thingies who’re supposed to ask questions?
jon
@Tree With Water: Not quite any group, but it’s true for any group worth being part of.
Zinsky
I know what Matt Yglesias is talking about with regard to Mike Pence. There are a number of Mike Pences in the conservative pantheon and most are dumber than rocks. I had the misfortune of sitting next to Iowa Governor Terry Branstad at a banquet for a 501 (c)(3) organization several years ago. The man has a friggin’ law degree and he was one of the most misinformed, uninformed people I have ever met. He barely knew what the charity’s mission was and on every current event I tried to make conversation with him about, he either didn’t know a thing about it or was horribly misinformed! Knowledge and good logical thinking skills are not prerequisites for Republican politicians!
catclub
If by ‘Left-media’, Cruz meant Mother Jones and The Nation that would be ok. But he means CBS and ABC News, NYT and WaPo. Everyone but Fox.
Cervantes
@J R in WV:
Water vapor molecules are relatively large and produce Mie scattering, which makes white halos appear in the sky (around the sun, for example); and also diffuse scattering, which makes the sky look grey.
Smaller molecules in the atmosphere, not water vapor, produce Rayleigh scattering. In this process, shorter wavelengths — blue, let’s call them — are scattered more, hence the usual color of your sky.
debbie
I love that it’s the people who want equal treatment who are the intolerant ones. What a dick.
I listened to a BBC interview with an Eli Lily spokesperson on Friday night. She seemed serious when she said they might need to relocate if the law had an adverse effect on the company’s ability to hire. Apparently, employees are already questioning their status in the state.
Tree With Water
@jon: You’re right, of course. Hence the phrase, “a bunch of assholes”.
VidaLoca
@Walker: Thanks a heap. We’ll be thinking fond thoughts of you too if something like Scott Walker happens in your state.
@gbear: Yes, but the term “complete asshole” completely describes Van Waangard.
@Gravenstone: Yes. The other dimension here is that the second-rate players in the Legislature now have the room to start free-lancing to see who’s going to fill the hole left by Walker when he either goes on to higher office or flames out.
Cervantes
@Walker:
Similarly, you failed twice to keep Bush out of the White House, and so you deserved everything you got from him — yes?
Franke Cufmann
If there’s a big underserved market for gays in Indiana for florists, cakes and wedding photographers, I’m moving there and opening a business that does all three and marketing myself as gay-friendly. Look at what Fox News was able accomplish just by figuring out that all news shows on TV were liberal.
I’ll make a deal with all the bakers, florists, and photographers and pay them a referral fee for gay customers they don’t want to cater to based on religious beliefs, or have them subcontract to me in order to avoid putting themselves in legal jeopardy.
This could be huge.
socraticsilence
So, how long til the religious right loses it when say an Islamic Cabbie refuses to give a ride to a strip joint.
Villago Delenda Est
@schrodinger’s cat: The more sads Kristoff gets, the better.
Steve
How dare pence sign into law a state law modeled after the federal religious freedom restoration act pushed into existence in 1993 by bill Clinton!
boatboy_srq
@Frankensteinbeck: Simplest answers are that a) tolerant Christians aren’t as attention-grabbing as bigoted Xtians and b) Xtians have grabbed the “Christian” moniker for themselves and refuse to let anyone use it except when they’re “under attack” from unGodly forces unknown.
Tim C.
@Steve:
Fred Clark explains the differences between the 1993 law both in its genesis, its intent and how it was applied from the Indiana version. There are in fact major differences.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2015/03/29/artificial-lemons/
Steve
Wrong tim….it’s the same
Tim C.
@Steve:
I get that “It’s the same” is the approved talking point. The problem is that just isn’t the case. Much of language of the law is the same in the 1993 Federal and 2015 Indiana version, that’s true, but there are significant sections that are in fact different. If your argument is that in practice that those sections are trivially different, and neither allows a business to refuse service to gay people, go ahead and explain that. If your thesis is that both the 1993 law and the 2015 law allow a business to refuse service to people because of their sexuality, go ahead and explain that. Heck, if I were making your argument, I’d point out how elements of the 2015 Indiana law were passed in Texas and South Carolina without nearly this level of objection and it’s all a bruhaha over nothing. That seems to be what you are trying to get at by invoking the talking point.
Source:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/03/what-makes-indianas-religious-freedom-law-different/388997/
Taken from the article:
There’s a factual dispute about the new Indiana law. It is called a “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” like the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, passed in 1993.* Thus a number of its defenders have claimed it is really the same law. Here, for example, is the Weekly Standard’s John McCormack: “Is there any difference between Indiana’s law and the federal law? Nothing significant.” I am not sure what McCormack was thinking; but even my old employer, The Washington Post, seems to believe that if a law has a similar title as another law, they must be identical. “Indiana is actually soon to be just one of 20 states with a version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, or RFRA,” the Post’s Hunter Schwarz wrote, linking to this map created by the National Conference of State Legislatures.
The problem with this statement is that, well, it’s false. That becomes clear when you read and compare those tedious state statutes. If you do that, you will find that the Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA—and most state RFRAs—do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to “the free exercise of religion.” The federal RFRA doesn’t contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina’s; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.
The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: “A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language.
What these words mean is, first, that the Indiana statute explicitly recognizes that a for-profit corporation has “free exercise” rights matching those of individuals or churches. A lot of legal thinkers thought that idea was outlandish until last year’s decision in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, in which the Court’s five conservatives interpreted the federal RFRA to give some corporate employers a religious veto over their employees’ statutory right to contraceptive coverage.
Second, the Indiana statute explicitly makes a business’s “free exercise” right a defense against a private lawsuit by another person, rather than simply against actions brought by government. Why does this matter? Well, there’s a lot of evidence that the new wave of “religious freedom” legislation was impelled, at least in part, by a panic over a New Mexico state-court decision, Elane Photography v. Willock. In that case, a same-sex couple sued a professional photography studio that refused to photograph the couple’s wedding. New Mexico law bars discrimination in “public accommodations” on the basis of sexual orientation. The studio said that New Mexico’s RFRA nonetheless barred the suit; but the state’s Supreme Court held that the RFRA did not apply “because the government is not a party.”
Remarkably enough, soon after, language found its way into the Indiana statute to make sure that no Indiana court could ever make a similar decision. Democrats also offered the Republican legislative majority a chance to amend the new act to say that it did not permit businesses to discriminate; they voted that amendment down.
Steve
Read the statutes. They are substantially similar in all material respects. Fact is you just don’t like how it might, might, be applied.