Open Thread: More Than Your Everyday Heroes…

From Buzzfeed:

Bathily, a 24-year-old Muslim from Mali, was working in the store in the Porte de Vincennes neighborhood when the Islamist gunman burst in.

As panic ensued, up to 15 customers in the store hurried down to the store basement, when Bathily had an idea.

“When they ran down, I opened the door [to the freezer],” he told France’s BFMTV.

He quickly shut off the freezer and switched off its light. As he closed the door to shelter the customers inside, he told them, “Stay calm here. I’m going out.”

Eventually police raided the market, killing Coulibaly. As the hostages were freed from the freezer, they had a few words of thanks for Bathily. “They congratulated me,” he told BFMTV…

As explained in Vox:

… #JeSuisAhmed honors Ahmed Merabet, the French police officer who was murdered outside the Charlie Hebdo offices by the same gunmen who went on to murder the magazine’s staffers. Merabet, in addition to being a police officer, is believed to have been part of France’s large Muslim community.

Twitter users have rallied to the hashtag to argue that Merabet, like the murdered journalists, should be honored as a defender of free speech — particularly because he died trying to protect a publication that had mocked and derided his own religion…

#JeSuisAhmed does not dispute the sentiment of Je Suis Charlie. Rather, it adds to it, by calling attention to the importance of tolerance as well as solidarity. That is important in its own right, but it’s also an elegant response to those who might respond to the attack with broad hostility towards Islam, or suspicion of Muslims as a group…

204 replies
  1. 1
  2. 2

    @Howard Beale IV: and people say romance is dead

  3. 3
    Professor says:

    But according to Fox ‘News’, no Muslim is capable of doing any Good Deed.

  4. 4
    wilfred says:

    The only thing remarkable about what Nasrallah said is that he and others have such things many times. Muslims want other people to become Muslims of their own accord – not kill them in the name of Islam.

    @Professor:

    According to Bill Maher he must be a bad Muslim because if he were a good Muslim he’d realize that his religion mandates that he must kill all infidels. Heads I win, tails you lose. Got it?

  5. 5
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Well, do we know for a fact that the gunmen were Sunni? Because that would certainly help explain why a Shiite would be quick to condemn them.

  6. 6
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @wilfred: You won’t give up on this point, will you?

    The sad fact is there are some Muslims who would back up Maher 100% on that point.

  7. 7

    This reaffirms my Quaker tenet that the good will rise.

    Also, my Pets of Balloon Juice calendar just arrived and I am so happy to see all the faces that go with the names of our furry friends. (Sam is probably thrilled to be surrounded by all the cats on the January page.)

  8. 8
    J says:

    Three cheers and more for Bathily, putting his life on the line in the service human solidarity.

    I applaud the JesuisAhmed with all my heart.

  9. 9
    Pogonip says:

    Is there any protection for Mr. Bathily? I’m concerned the nuts might go after HIM now.

  10. 10
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @SatanicPanic: Cereal killer, she wasn’t.

  11. 11
    Steeplejack says:

    @Howard Beale IV:

    “Cereal killer.” (Priceless comment on the Gawker story.)

    ETA: Tsk-tsk, Howard Beale. No attribution.

  12. 12
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Pogonip: This is certainly a valid concern. The man is a fucking hero, but some of his own faith no doubt consider him an apostate, worthy of death, for treating Jews like they’re humans.

  13. 13
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Both Hezbollah and Hamas condemned the killings. When was the last time you saw that occur?

  14. 14
    smintheus says:

    If anybody at Charlie ridiculed Islam, they had the right to do so. Humans are amazing. They behold a senseless massacre and respond by quibbling over who was more the victim.

  15. 15
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @Steeplejack: Yeppers.

  16. 16
    dedc79 says:

    As heroic an act as that was by Bathily, there is something incredibly depressing about the fact that it’s 2015 and we’re still reading stories about people having to hide jews from people who want to murder them for being jews. In Europe no less.

  17. 17
    Mike J says:

    Did he tell them to
    (•_•) / ( •_•)>⌐■-■ / (⌐■_■)
    keep cool?

    YYEEAAHH!

  18. 18
    NotMax says:

    IIRC, one of the members of the magazine’s staff who was shot was also Muslim.

  19. 19
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @NotMax: Yes, a copy editor.

  20. 20
    sharl says:

    Yeah, yeah, not all muslins are bloodthirsty terrists, whatev. Why don’t u ever talk about what Peckerwoods Real Americans™©® care about?

    Tom Scocca ‏@tomscocca
    Damn, Miranda July all over the paper droppin fearless truths

    What’s the worst book you’ve ever read?

    I know I’m going to lose a lot of readers over this, and I don’t care: “Garfield” is overrated. I have always felt this, even as a child. That dumb man and his dumb, mean cat have gotten more of our attention than they deserve. Less so recently. But you meet men (and cats) like them every day. It’s a type.

    Jeb Lund ‏@Mobute
    @tomscocca “the burger king lies to children. every child dreams of a fairytale burger from the pictures and is instead served this world”

  21. 21
    wilfred says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Oh for fuck’s sake:

    Leslie Stahl asks Albright: “We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?”
    To which Albright replies: “I think this is a very hard choice. But the price–we think the price is worth it.”

    Since she worked for Bill and Hilary we know who ‘we’ are, don’t we? Let’s play some (fill in blank) feel that way game.

  22. 22
    Steeplejack says:

    @Mike J:

    Can you print me a 2015 calendar with a giant Playboy bunny logo at the top, all formed from (lower) ASCII letters on wide computer printout paper? Thanks in advance!

    ETA: NEC Spinwriter or equivalent preferred.

  23. 23
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mike J: “This wasn’t your usual case of freezer burn. This was…murder.”
    Du-DUHN!
    YYEEAAHH!

  24. 24
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @wilfred: Which of course gloriously misses the point that I was making in commenting on your obsession with Maher.

    By all means, let’s quickly change the subject to avoid the terrible truth that there are indeed some Muslims who think that the logical response to blasphemy and apostasy is death.

  25. 25
    Rex Tremendae says:

    Newsmax: MUSLIM MAN LOCKS JEWS IN FREEZER

  26. 26
    wilfred says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    My point about Maher is that his bigotry against Muslims is condoned because such bigotry is socially acceptable. Do you, or does anyone else, believe that if he started to pick quotes from the Old Testament showing at least the equal, and in most cases far worse, shock value that he would be on television very long.

    I just saw Exodus. What kind of a God slaughters children of one race in order to favor the other? How can we as Americans support a country based on that religion, or people who believe and cherish, and even celebrate, such horrible things?

    See, it’s easy.

  27. 27
    PurpleGirl says:

    OT: MeTV tonight shows Squire of Gothos. I think one of the best Original Star Trek stories.

    I return you to the posted topic…

    Via The Mahablog, I read Juan Coles’ take on the Paris attack. He thinks it was done for long-term effects on French society and recruiting disaffected Muslims as the result of hoped-for discrimination, etc. as a result of the terror attack(s).

  28. 28

    @Howard Beale IV: If you’re going to fire a gun, you should really chex your target first

  29. 29
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    You’ll find people who think like that in any religion. It’s not new or surprising at all. But the vast majority of Muslims in France and elsewhere will see Lassana Bathily as a person who did a righteous thing. He’s been working all this while in a Jewish-owned business without drawing any hate from the Muslim nutters. His life is not going to be in any more danger than usual because he did this.

  30. 30
    PurpleGirl says:

    Bathily may feel more French than Islamic as a nationality. He therefore would want to protect and help other French people. If so, it is possible that more young people who are Muslim but were born and raised in France may feel that way.

    (Going back to watch kitten cams for a while.)

  31. 31
    Amir Khalid says:

    @PurpleGirl:
    And maybe Bathily is just a regular human being who doesn’t want to see people murdered in cold blood.

  32. 32
    scav says:

    @SatanicPanic: How the holes got in Cherios!

    @Amir Khalid: I’m rather amused at how comfortable VDE (among others) is with the aftertaste of ‘well, there are black thugs so until all black on black violence is cured, Ferganson / Cleveland / NYC / et al is no biggie’ that lingers about his righteous truth-telling.

  33. 33
    Steeplejack says:

    @PurpleGirl:

    Thanks, I might check out the Star Trek.

  34. 34
    scav says:

    @PurpleGirl: Seriously, in your world being French is necessarily incompatible with beilieving in Islam.

  35. 35
    wilfred says:

    @PurpleGirl:

    You forgot to add it was mighty white of him to do that.

    Every adult Muslim that I’ve known is familiar with this hadith:

    Ibn Abu Laila reported: Sahl ibn Hunaif and Qais ibn Sa’d ibn Ubaidah were in Al-Qadisiyyah when a funeral passed by them, so they stood up and it was said to them, “It is one of the local people.” They both said: A funeral passed by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and he stood up. It was said to him, “It is a Jew.” The Prophet said, “Was he not a soul?”

    Sahih Bukhari 1250, Sahih Muslim 961

  36. 36
    Pogonip says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Aren’t their Scriptures pretty clear that apostasy is a capital offense?

  37. 37
    Pogonip says:

    @Amir Khalid: I sure am glad to hear that!

  38. 38
    eemom says:

    Jaysus, a thread that at least somewhat celebrates people REJECTING violence and hatred, and y’all gotta fight in it?

    Sure, like I’m one to talk….but STILL.

  39. 39
    Suzanne says:

    I wish that more cops here were like Ahmed Merabet.

    Unrelated note on this here open thread: I need a new car. Leaning toward buying new because I am a person who keeps cars a long time. I test-drove a Nissan Rogue a few weeks ago, and just tested a Subaru XV Crosstrek Hybrid. Normally, I think Subarus look like shite, but I liked the Crosstrek’s look well enough. The Subaru seemed to have slightly better handling, has all-wheel drive, and is a hybrid, so the MPG was good, but is a couple of K more than the Nissan. I liked the Nissan’s aesthetics and interior better, and the cargo area was a bit bigger, which would be more comfortable for the dog. Any thoughts?

  40. 40
    Corner Stone says:

    @Suzanne:

    I wish that more cops here were like Ahmed Merabet.

    Ummm….

  41. 41
    Corey says:

    Hezbollah’s statement should be interpreted in light of its geopolitical situation, in particular, its alliance with Assad’s regime in the Syrian civil war against ISIS and al-Qaeda. linky

  42. 42
    wasabi gasp says:

    Ahmed Merabet died because his job found him in the cross-hairs of bloodthirsty killers. His service is certainly honorable, but Jahjah’s tweet is just further layering the bullshit pile.

  43. 43
    Pogonip says:

    @Suzanne: I always buy new too and then drive it till the doors fall off. I am 55, used to commute, and have owned 4 vehicles.

    Also too, if I get a car I like, I always have an irrational fear that the next one will turn out to be a lemon.

  44. 44

    @Suzanne:

    Something to consider — check to see what kind of chassis the SUV was built on. The ones based on a car chassis are more stable (less likely to roll over) than ones built on a truck chassis. I know the Crosstrek is built on a car chassis (an Impreza, IIRC) but I don’t know about the Nissan.

  45. 45
    Pogonip says:

    Is it too shallow of me to note that Mr. Bathily is a good-looking kid? If I went to his store, I’d be torn between wanting to flirt with him and wanting to make sure he’s dressed warm enough.

  46. 46
    debbie says:

    Has Pamela Geller thanked Lassana yet?

  47. 47
    Cervantes says:

    @SatanicPanic:

    Well, it is now, in that house.

  48. 48

    Since I know there are some Georgette Heyer fans here, Amazon has five of her books on Kindle for $1.99 today. I already have “The Grand Sophy,” but I did get the other four.

  49. 49
    Mike J says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): I have a couple of albums by La Grande Sophie. La place du fantôme and Et Si C’était Moi.

  50. 50
    SoupCatcher says:

    He quickly shut off the freezer and switched off its light. As he closed the door to shelter the customers inside, he told them, “Stay calm here. I’m going out.”

    I especially like that he shut off the freezer. Really nice job of thinking ahead. I can totally see myself skipping that step.

  51. 51
  52. 52
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @scav: EXCUSE ME?

    Where the fuck did that come from?

  53. 53
    Suzanne says:

    @Corner Stone: I don’t mean dead. I mean ethical.

  54. 54
    Belafon says:

    @PurpleGirl: You know, we once had this famous saying here in America that talked about not liking what someone said but defending their right to say it.

    @Suzanne:

    I wish that more cops here were like Ahmed Merabet.

    Aren’t you being too general here, a bit like saying all Muslims are terrorists?

  55. 55
    Aimai says:

    @Amir Khalid: right. This. The guy is a righteous human being *and* a muslim immigrant. Its not like his frenchness overcame those other aspects.

  56. 56
    Jasmine Bleach says:

    @Suzanne:

    I’d just add that just about all recent Nissan’s I’ve seen seem to not last super long. (I used to own a small Nissan that lasted forever, but that was from a different era–a 200 SX.)

    I and my spouse both own Subarus now and they’re both going on 10 years without a hitch so far. You know the old adage “Subaru’s last forever”?

    Of course, now that I’ve mentioned it, you’ll probably buy a Subaru and get a lemon . . .

  57. 57
    Suzanne says:

    @Belafon: Possibly. I just appreciate cops who don’t have itchy trigger fingers, and would rather sacrifice themselves than shoot first and ask questions later.

  58. 58
    PurpleGirl says:

    @Amir Khalid: Yes, that is true too. He’s a good guy.

    @Belafon: Yes, I was taught that in school while I was growing up.

  59. 59
    catclub says:

    @SatanicPanic: No means NO.

  60. 60
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    @debbie: I bet Michael Savage ‘s and Alan Dershowitz’s heads exploded when they found out.

  61. 61
    Cervantes says:

    @Belafon:

    You know, we once had this famous saying here in America that talked about not liking what someone said but defending their right to say it.

    Yes.

    We borrowed it from an Englishwoman, one of Voltaire’s biographers, who put the words in his mouth.

    In any event, it’s a nice principle. How far do you yourself take it? Would you stand up for the Tea Party? Holocaust-deniers? Donald Trump?

  62. 62
  63. 63
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cervantes:

    In any event, it’s a nice principle. How far do you yourself take it? Would you stand up for the Tea Party? Holocaust-deniers? Donald Trump?

    Speech, as far as speech goes, must be defended no matter how offensive.

  64. 64
    scav says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Your apparent use of the violence of a few as an inditement of and a reason to ignore / discount the generally ethical behavior of the masses and the profoundly good of the few.

  65. 65
    Tommy says:

    @Mustang Bobby: Yeah I love my calendar I got a few weeks ago. Mine is hanging in my kitchen. Got one for my mother and father, who travel (via car) about 2 weeks out of the month. They carry around a large format calendar like this with them everywhere to note important dates. When they are out of town. Appointments. You name it. I hear they are “big fans” of the Ballon Juice calendar.

    And of course my father asked, “what is Ballon Juice?”

  66. 66
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cervantes:

    How far do you yourself take it? Would you stand up for the Tea Party? Holocaust-deniers? Donald Trump?

    Absolutely, I would stand up for their right to speak.

  67. 67

    @Mike J:

    I doubt they named themselves after a Regency romance novel written in the 1950s, but it would be pretty funny if they had!

  68. 68
    Mike in NC says:

    @Suzanne: We had dinner last night with two couples who recently moved to our neighborhood. Oddly enough, between us we own six Hondas.

  69. 69
    SRW1 says:

    Whatever his nationality or creed, Lassana Bathily is a mensch.

  70. 70
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tommy:

    They carry around a large format calendar like this with them everywhere to note important dates. When they are out of town.

    Didn’t you and your bro buy your mom a smart phone recently?

  71. 71
    Tommy says:

    @Suzanne: I am a VW guy, currently with a Passat. If I was I was in the market for a car I’d look strongly at the hybrid Jetta. With that said Subaru might be the only other brand of car I’d consider. I really love the Outback. Heck I kick myself, as an avid hiker/camper I got the four-door Passat and not the wagon.

  72. 72
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @Suzanne: Forget the Crosstrek Hybrid and buy its sibilng the Impreza unless you need the height-then buy the non-hybrid Crosstrek.

  73. 73
    Tommy says:

    @Corner Stone: Nope. Dad refused to “allow” it. Mom wants one so bad. I tell her just to go buy it, but alas she won’t. And to be honest even if they had a smart phone I am pretty sure they’d still use a printed calendar. They are pretty set in their ways. Only reason my mom wants a new phone is to text. She’ll never use it for anything else.

  74. 74

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think the line that people are struggling to discern is, is there a distinction between supporting someone’s right to speech and promoting that speech? The magazine absolutely, positively had the right to publish a cartoon of a naked Mohammed on all fours with his cock and balls hanging down, but are we required to republish it in a family newspaper in order to support free speech?

  75. 75
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @Pogonip: Only in the Hadiths.The Koran proper specifies chastisment.

  76. 76
    Cervantes says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    @Corner Stone:

    Could not agree more.

  77. 77

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Also, too, the question is complicated by different standards for things like nudity in different countries. The French would probably scoff at our discomfort with an image of a naked man, but the US does have a different cultural standard for nudity than a lot of Europe does.

  78. 78
    NotMax says:

    @Corner Stone

    Well remember how the ACLU was viciously lambasted for defending the exercise of free speech by a neo-Nazi group which was planning a march in Illinois.

    The ACLU was absolutely, completely in the right.

  79. 79
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax:

    The ACLU was absolutely, completely in the right.

    There is a reason that I give them money.

  80. 80
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tommy:

    Nope. Dad refused to “allow” it. Mom wants one so bad. I tell her just to go buy it, but alas she won’t.

    What? Who the fuck says he gets a say?

  81. 81
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    I think the line that people are struggling to discern is, is there a distinction between supporting someone’s right to speech and promoting that speech?

    That may be the case, but that wasn’t one of the questions I was answering.

  82. 82
    Corner Stone says:

    @NotMax:

    was viciously lambasted

    Lots of people in the US, and I’m sure across the world, somehow find it way too easy to conflate the defense of a stance with endorsement of that position.
    I care deeply what hatemongers/anti-choicers have to say, and apparently believe in. But they get to say it as much as they want, until that crosses into action.

  83. 83
  84. 84
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    I think the line that people are struggling to discern is, is there a distinction between supporting someone’s right to speech and promoting that speech? The magazine absolutely, positively had the right to publish a cartoon of a naked Mohammed on all fours with his cock and balls hanging down, but are we required to republish it in a family newspaper in order to support free speech?

    There is no struggle to discern this position. As a member of a free press, I (in the general sense) absolutely do not have to republish shit I abhor. But I, at the same time, will support CH’s ability to do so.

  85. 85
    eemom says:

    @Cervantes:

    Thirded.

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    Once again, conflating a simple principle with your own bullshit hypothetical that has 0 bearing on the validity of that principle. Quelle surprise.

  86. 86
    Pogonip says:

    @Tommy: I’m with the parents. If I drop my Daytimer in the toilet, it’ll still work once it dries out. It’s silly to computerize every little thing.

    Office Max, and probably all similar stores, sells enormous wall calendars with giant squares.

  87. 87
    Suzanne says:

    @Howard Beale IV: I do need the height. The Impreza is cute, though. Why don’t you like the hybrid?

    @Tommy: I need a small SUV or a crossover. Mr. Suzanne drives the compacts or sedans. VW has the Tiguan, which seems to have crappy ratings and is really expensive compared to everything else I’m looking at.

    @Mike in NC: I have a 2000 Honda CR-V right now, which is about to cross 200K miles and I’ve had it for ten years. I bought it used. It’s been a great, great car. I’m definitely going to look at a new version of it. I’m not a fan of the exterior of the new models, but the interior is nice.

  88. 88

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think it’s the underlying question, though. When someone says they support free speech, what form is that support supposed to take, especially when we’re talking about offensive speech? And is there a distinction between supporting speech and promoting it, or does supporting free speech require one to promote offensive speech?

  89. 89
    Tommy says:

    @Corner Stone: That is pretty much what I’ve told her a hundred times. Years ago my parents, myself, and my brother saw we could save a ton of money with Verizon if we were all on the same plan. My brother and I just write them a check to cover the year and they get the bill. I am 100% sure she could walk into Verizon and get a pretty nice smart phone for free in a couple minutes.

    But (1) she doesn’t want to do this because you can’t have two phones with the same phone number. She wouldn’t “turn off” the phone my father uses and (2) for some reason she doesn’t want another number.

    Makes no sense to me, but it is what it is.

  90. 90
    Suzanne says:

    @Cervantes: I would absolutely, 100%, every day of the week support the right of Donald Trump, the Tea Party, and Holocaust-deniers to free speech.

  91. 91
    Pogonip says:

    Getting back to young Monsieur Bathily for a moment, I bet he’s the kind of person who, whenever he enters a place, takes a moment to think “If an emergency occurred, what would I do?”. Let’s all remember to do the same.

  92. 92
  93. 93
    Tommy says:

    @Suzanne: Do not, I repeat even think about the Tiguan. Somehow it is about the only car they make that is a total piece of shit.

  94. 94
    Suzanne says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): I do not think that supporting someone’s right to speak is in any way an endorsement of the content of their speech. That is a rabbit hole into which I will not fall.

  95. 95
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): It is not the underlying question. The position we were taking is simply the one attributed to Voltaire: I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. It is rather uncomplicated.

  96. 96
    Suzanne says:

    @Tommy: The Tiguan is really ugly, too.

  97. 97
    Cervantes says:

    @Corner Stone:

    But they get to say it as much as they want, until that crosses into action.

    Someone mentioned nudity. What if, in my workplace — perhaps I am the boss, perhaps not — suppose I put up a number of calendars and posters featuring naked women in suggestive poses. Is that me engaging in speech or have I crossed over into action? Would you defend my right to do whatever it is I am doing?

  98. 98

    @eemom:

    People are changing their social media avatars to Charlie Hebdo images and republishing them on the web in the name of supporting free speech, so it’s not a hypothetical at all. When someone makes the image I described their social media avatar, are they supporting free speech or promoting offensive speech?

  99. 99
    debbie says:

    @NotMax:

    Sure they have the right to say whatever they want, but then others have the right to be as vocal as they choose to be in their objection.

    More than once, I’ve heard Glenn Beck (admittedly nuts) defend someone’s right to say something, and then label as terrorists those who object to what was said.

  100. 100
    Corner Stone says:

    @Suzanne:

    I have a 2000 Honda CR-V right now, which is about to cross 200K miles and I’ve had it for ten years. I bought it used. It’s been a great, great car.

    I was going to suggest the CR-V as I have the 2008, but I also do not care for the new weird backend on the current model. I do still love mine, but after several days of driving across Austin I think when I move there I am going to have to get something with at least a V6. The CR-V is nice in flatlandia but in the twisty hills around Austin it can get pretty hairy with a bunch of V8 trucks and Beemers blasting past you on both sides.

  101. 101
  102. 102
    Cervantes says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Yes, I don’t experience that question as much of a struggle, either.

  103. 103
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cervantes:

    suppose I put up a number of calendars and posters featuring naked women in suggestive poses. Is that me engaging in speech or have I crossed over into action? Would you defend my right to do whatever it is I am doing?

    That’s action, and an affirmative decision to cross your ideals into a hostile environment affecting your employees.
    But it doesn’t matter. I have the ability to fire you, or sue you, if you condone such action. Because you are not the govt and etc.
    Let’s not start down the lesser path, here. The right to make offensive statements is protected by the govt in the public sphere, not by private employers.

    edited a little

  104. 104
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: My parents still have a ’97 CR-V (first year of the model). They will probably be replacing it this spring. It’s done yeoman’s work for years.

  105. 105
    Suzanne says:

    @Cervantes: The owner of a company can dictate policies on acceptable speech of their employees, but within the workplace only. Any that doesn’t have anything to do with the legal right of free speech. The legal right to free speech guarantees that you won’t go to jail for hanging up porn in your office and that is it.

  106. 106
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Cervantes: In the Army, an authoritarian environment if there ever was one, that did cross the line…because open display of said pictures might offend the sensibility of others.

  107. 107
    Pogonip says:

    @Howard Beale IV: Thank you! Does the Koran trump the Hadith, or is it the other way around?

    The reason I ask what sounds like an obscure doctrinal question is I saw an article maintaining that the good Muslims, the ones doing as the Prophet wished, are the militants, whereas the everyday Joes who are NOT trying to convert the world by force are good people but bad Muslims, and the article cited several Islamic Scriptures in support of this idea. However, I have been kicking around in organized religion for almost 50 years, and I strongly suspect that the Islamic Scriptures are much like the Bible: ignorant folk can cherry-pick and find almost anything they want somewhere in there. (This is why Saint Peter cautioned against bumbling around the Bible by yourself, without a wiser head to help you understand what you were reading, and why much of Christendom has a Magisterium that does exactly that.)

  108. 108
    Cervantes says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    People are changing their social media avatars to Charlie Hebdo images and republishing them on the web in the name of supporting free speech, so it’s not a hypothetical at all. When someone makes the image I described their social media avatar, are they supporting free speech or promoting offensive speech?

    I think there’s less to the dichotomy than meets the eye. Really, the more “offensive” the act of “free speech” is, the more people will seek to quell it, ergo the more it needs “supporting.” Don’t you agree?

  109. 109
    Suzanne says:

    @Corner Stone: Phoenix is flat and my CRV has served me well, but I agree that the back end of the new one is ugly. We do like to go up to the mountainous, snowy parts of the state, and the Subaru would save us having to rent a more appropriate vehicle. The Nissan is front-wheel drive, so we’d need to rent. The MSRP on the CRV is much higher than the Nissan and is about the same as the CRV, but doesn’t have the gas mileage benefits of the hybrid.

  110. 110
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I have so been lusting after the diesel model sold only in EUR for years. That would be so freakin cool to keep for the next 10 years.
    But alas, I’ll probably keep my 2008 with less than 60K on it for quite some time.

  111. 111

    @Suzanne:

    It’s definitely a difficult rabbit hole, but it comes up every time cartoons like this result in violence and/or murder. Some people seem to think it’s their duty as free speech advocates to republish the cartoons and to urge others to do so. It’s usually defended as some form of If you don’t republish the images and make sure they’re widely shown, then the terrorists win. That’s why I’m wondering where the line is between supporting and promoting.

    There was a very interesting interview I heard on NPR’s “The World” on Thursday where they had a British journalist on who said that European newspapers were reluctant to republish the cartoons out of fear of retaliation by Islamists. He seemed almost puzzled by the other guest (an editor for the Washington Post) who said he would not publish the most offensive cartoons not out of fear, but because they didn’t meet the Post’s publication standards.

    I doubt any of us will be able to solve the question in the comments section of a blog, but I think it’s a thornier question than a lot of people want to admit.

  112. 112
    Cervantes says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I don’t disagree.

    Just thinking aloud about how we can (or cannot) tell when speech has turned into action.

  113. 113
    Tommy says:

    @Suzanne: My parents had a Chrysler Pacifica. I don’t generally like “American” cars but I loved that darn thing. Not a van. Not a SUV. A hybrid I guess. It was flat out wonderful. But my parents are on the road traveling around the US at least two weeks out of each month and they just put a ton of miles on their cars. About two years ago when they went to replace it they were heartbroken they no longer made it.

    Now they have a Chrysler 300 (yeah they also have a Crossfire — Chrysler family). I wouldn’t say I dislike it, but not much “pop” with the engine and the interior, well just a lot of little stuff that bugs me. Things that I notice with a VW, because the German’s seem to pay attention to these little details.

    I do like the exterior appearance ….

  114. 114
    Pogonip says:

    @Pogonip: Er, that guides understanding of Scripture, not that bumbles around! ( Some Christians think the Magesterium does indeed bumble, but what I was trying to explain, before the paragraph fell apart, was that teaching is their official function. Not bumbling. Any bumbling they do should be on their own time.)

  115. 115
    eemom says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    When someone says they support free speech, what form is that support supposed to take, especially when we’re talking about offensive speech? And is there a distinction between supporting speech and promoting it, or does supporting free speech require one to promote offensive speech?

    See, in the context of “offensive speech” (as distinguished from other First Amendment issues) this really IS simple.

    Free speech in the context of “offensive speech” means anyone gets to say/publish whatever the fuck they want, regardless of who might be offended. To support that, all you have to do is, you know, support the right of anyone to say/publish whatever the fuck they want, regardless of who might be offended.

    “Support” does not mean “promote”. “Support” does not mean “republish”. Those points strike me as no brainers to anyone who is not either as obtuse as a bag of rocks, or making shit up to get attention on a blog.

  116. 116
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @scav: No, I’m stating that Maher is not wrong to cite that as an example. Wilfred is fixated on Maher…who is implying that every last Muslim feels that way, which is wrong. Obviously there’s a wide spectrum of druthers on that point across Islam. Just as there is with Christianity.

    The fact is, as Amir helpfully points out, this is a problem with nearly every religious faith out there. I give you the entire Reformation period as an example of it happening in Christendom.

  117. 117
    Pogonip says:

    @Cervantes: Seems to me the calendar is a pretty good example. “I like girlie calendars”= speech. Putting one up where everybody who happens by sees it = action.

  118. 118

    @Cervantes:

    But as I said, is there a line between support and promotion? Do we, as some people have said, have a duty to make sure these images are republished as widely as possible to demonstrate our commitment to free speech?

  119. 119
    NotMax says:

    @debbie

    Not gonna be lassoed and dragged down that brambly byway.

    Defending the right of speech is not equivalent to endorsing the content of that speech, nor the same as promoting the speech, nor the same as agreeing with the speech, nor declaring the speech immune or off-limits to objection, acrimony, rebuttal, mockery or civil consequence, nor any stipulation that its message be granted legitimacy.

  120. 120
    Cervantes says:

    @Pogonip:

    Well, yes, but what is my “free speech” worth if, before I speak, I first have to make sure there is no audience?

  121. 121
    eemom says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    People are changing their social media avatars to Charlie Hebdo images and republishing them on the web in the name of supporting free speech, so it’s not a hypothetical at all. When someone makes the image I described their social media avatar, are they supporting free speech or promoting offensive speech?

    They’re engaging in free speech, themselves, which I support
    — so once again, the question is utterly irrelevant to what it means to support free speech.

    Next?

  122. 122
    Suzanne says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): Well, I think the knee jerk reaction to republish is dumb. Some of that speech isn’t really worth hearing/reading/viewing, though of course that’s not the point.

    I guess I view the first amendment the way I view the second: just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

    Having said that, free speech has consequences, and some of those consequences mean people will hate you. Much like Sheriff Dupnik said after the Tucson shooting….inflamed rhetoric is heard by the sane and the insane alike.

  123. 123
    Cervantes says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    Do we, as some people have said, have a duty to make sure these images are republished as widely as possible to demonstrate our commitment to free speech?

    “A duty”? I don’t think so.

    It would be an odd state of affairs in which proponents of “free speech” could force me to mouth words I am not prepared to mouth.

  124. 124
    Mike E says:

    @Steeplejack: I don’t wanna! Trelaine

  125. 125
    NotMax says:

    @Mnemosyne

    Apples and oranges; two separate arguments. Just because a bookstore shelves and sells The Turner Diaries or Mein Kampf does not ipso facto become a promotion of the content.

  126. 126

    @eemom:

    Here’s an article from Deadline about the “publish or not?” controversy. It’s an actual question that the media is asking right now.

  127. 127
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cervantes: Is posting the calendar expressive conduct or is it simply conduct? Obviously there is a line to be drawn somewhere. I would say the person has a right to post it, but speech (and expressive conduct) has consequences and one consequence of that action is likely to be problems at work.

  128. 128
    Cervantes says:

    @NotMax:

    Just because a bookstore shelves and sells The Turner Diaries or Mein Kampf does not ipso facto become a promotion of the content.

    Great example. What if the bookstore advertises those titles, let’s say among a list of other titles it has available?

  129. 129
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    And is there a distinction between supporting speech and promoting it, or does supporting free speech require one to promote offensive speech?

    What the fuck does this garbage even mean? I have to join the KKK if I truly believe in the right to free speech?
    Yes, Capt Mnemo. There is a distinction between the two that everyone here except you and a handful of others get pretty clearly.

  130. 130
    NotMax says:

    @Omnes Omnibus

    Just as it was commonplace to see calendars of women in varying states of undress prominently posted in auto repair shops. The norms of acceptance and the norms of obloquy have evolved.

  131. 131
    Suzanne says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): Upon reading that article, I think that it would be reasonable to show some of the better cartoons, those that are of higher quality and are less inflammatory-for-the-sake-of-being-inflammatory, in papers like the NYT, and all of them could be republished in other publications that are specifically more satirically oriented.

  132. 132

    @NotMax:

    I agree that merely selling an item does not constitute endorsement. If a book were published with all of the most offensive Charlie Hebdo cartoons in it, I would be outraged to hear of any bookstore that refused to sell it, because it’s not their business to decide what I’m allowed to read.

    It becomes trickier with a newspaper or website, and I don’t think it has anything to do with buying or selling. If your ideal as a publication is free speech, do journalistic ethics require you to demonstrate your ideals by publishing speech that someone tried to violently suppress, regardless of the content of that speech?

  133. 133
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax: The Snap-on Tools calandar…

  134. 134
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cervantes:

    Great example. What if the bookstore advertises those titles, let’s say among a list of other titles it has available?

    Why would promoting a catalog be any evidence of support for that specific speech contained on the list?
    For example, Fahrenheit 451. If it’s on the ban list and a shop offers it for sale?
    I, personally, do not care to read a book by Hitler. And?

  135. 135
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    If your ideal as a publication is free speech, do journalistic ethics require you to demonstrate your ideals by publishing speech that someone tried to violently suppress, regardless of the content of that speech?

    No.
    How fucking hard is this?

  136. 136
  137. 137
    Tommy says:

    @NotMax: How about it. My grandfather started out at an entry level position at Snap-on and worked up to management in his 30+ years there. Parents used to hate the calendars he’d give me of “women with tools” (and not much clothing) each new year. At the time Snap-on might have been known as the Ferrari of tools and they did it. Just the way it was done not that long ago and nobody seemed to care. They seem to care a little more today (and I think that is a good thing).

  138. 138
    eemom says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    wrt that calendar posting example, IIRC there’s some law on the issue of “captive audience.”

    Of course First Amendment issues get complicated. But the question Cervantes posed — supporting the right of anyone to say what they want, regardless of who it offends — is not such an issue. Nor will it be rendered one by the latest Mnemosyne sideshow.

  139. 139
    Corner Stone says:

    @Suzanne:

    Upon reading that article, I think that it would be reasonable to show some of the better cartoons

    I, personally, find none of the cartoons I have come across to be very useful, thought provoking or even well done.
    No matter. If I had a publication machine I wouldn’t reprint them. They still deserve to exist and be published for the audience that cares to partake in that kind of nonsense.

  140. 140
    eemom says:

    @Corner Stone:

    omfg. We are on the same page.

  141. 141

    Okay, I have to head out to dinner so I’m wandering away, but I genuinely don’t have any answers to the questions I’m asking. It’s a debate that I’m seeing a lot on the web and have been hearing in the news. It may just be more media navel-gazing, but I do think it’s an interesting question.

  142. 142
    Cervantes says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Why would promoting a catalog be any evidence of support for that specific speech contained on the list?

    If I, Bookstore advertise that I have Hitler’s works for sale, am I promoting the sale of those works? Sure, I am.

    And am I, Bookstore necessarily endorsing the content of those works? No.

  143. 143
    NotMax says:

    @Mnemosyne

    You’re moving the goalposts. Nobody here (I sincerely hope) is advocating requiring the publishing of anything.

    That in itself is offensive and antithetical to the concept of a free press.

    Editorial discretion coupled with an awareness of the publication’s audience (essentially a business-oriented decision) are not being suggested as being banished.

  144. 144
  145. 145

    @NotMax:

    Nobody here is advocating requiring it, but outside of this blog, it’s been a huge debate and there are some people saying (that phrase!) that the only way to truly support free speech is to republish as many of the cartoons as possible. That’s why I’m curious to find out what people think.

  146. 146
    eemom says:

    @NotMax:

    She’s not “moving the goalposts”. She’s talking about goalposts in her head that don’t exist.

    Y’all engaging in this bullshit are at Alice in Wonderland’s Tea Party.

  147. 147
    raven says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): “Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend, inside of a dog it’s too dark to read.”

  148. 148
    raven says:

    @eemom: I’m having fun.

  149. 149
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Belafon:

    we once had this famous saying here in America that talked about not liking what someone said but defending their right to say it.

    Long attributed to Voltaire.

  150. 150
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @raven: @raven: I have never seen those before.

  151. 151
    NotMax says:

    @raven

    Heh. Looks to me like grounds for a suit (at the time) by Al Capp if done absent permission. Sure looks more like a rip-off of his style and of Daisy Mae than it looks drawn by him.

    Always felt a pang of sympathy for the company which came up with the Jeep but wasn’t a robust enough operation to mass produce it.

  152. 152
    eemom says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    You know what? You’re an asshole.

  153. 153
    Tissue Thin Pseudonym says:

    @Suzanne:

    The owner of a company can dictate policies on acceptable speech of their employees, but within the workplace only.

    You have previously taken the position that it is perfectly okay for employers to dictate policies on acceptable speech of their employees outside the workplace as well.

  154. 154
    raven says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: NotMax

    The publication was PS Magazine: Supporting Preventive Maintenance

    Will Eisner was already famous for his work on The Spirit when he was drafted for duty during World War II. While in the service, Eisner put his artistic talents to work in army publications, creating a character named Joe Dope. After the war, the army wanted to design a publication dedicated to preventive maintenance that soldiers would actually want to read, and turned to Eisner’s young company, American Visuals Corporation. Eisner was the artistic director for PS Magazine from its inception in 1951 through 1972.

    They would be in the motor pool and day rooms.

  155. 155
    drkrick says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    If you don’t republish the images and make sure they’re widely shown, then the terrorists win.

    Has there every been an argument that ended with “… then the terrorists win” that was worth a damn? I’ve found it almost as foolproof a bullshit tag as “I’m not a racist, but …”,

  156. 156
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @drkrick: I think republishing the images is a reasonable response to the situation. It is by no means the only reasonable response.

  157. 157
    raven says:

    @NotMax: I have collect everything I can find about my dad’s destroyer class. The best thing I have is a comic style book that really conveys what life was like on those “bucket of bolts WWI workhorses”.

  158. 158
    NotMax says:

    @raven

    No question the Connie Rod one was drawn by Will Eisner, who created the Joe Dope for Army Motors series.

    The Jeep one I’m still puzzled by, as it doesn’t look at all like Eisner’s work. Leaning to crediting it to Eisner’s sometime collaborator Jerry Iger.

  159. 159
    wasabi gasp says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini): This is sounding similar to when you ended a long string of comment arguments with a reference to Infowars.

  160. 160
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @raven: What was he on?

  161. 161
    drkrick says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    If a book were published with all of the most offensive Charlie Hebdo cartoons in it, I would be outraged to hear of any bookstore that refused to sell it, because it’s not their business to decide what I’m allowed to read.

    Their refusal to stock the book doesn’t decide what you’re allowed to read. It decides what they’re willing to sell, which is unequivocally their business. As a practical matter, most bookstores aren’t able to stock every book currently in print and has to select what they’ll include on some basis. I don’t know why willingness to be associated with the content isn’t as good a reason as any other.

  162. 162
    Cervantes says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    That’s why I’m curious to find out what people think.

    OK, fair enough, and now you’ve heard from several people here.

    In particular, to repeat myself: If David, a neo-Nazi (or other) speaker, were scheduled to give a talk and there was opposition, I would (and actually have) come out in support of David’s being allowed to proceed. Now, if later some angry person were to shoot David dead, would I feel obliged and motivated to rent an auditorium and deliver his neo-Nazi (or other) talk for him? Well, I might — or I might not.

    The argument is that David should be free to state his views; not that I am obliged to state them for him in his absence.

    Frankly, I’d be surprised to find anyone here arguing otherwise.

  163. 163
    scav says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Agreed. I may have come in mid-thread on a longer debate. But, the argument I saw carried a whiff of that line of attack which perturbed me — much as Violet’s feeling she had to explain Bathily’s action of protecting others by his adoption of “French” cultural values, as though they were antithetical to Islamic ones (and, moreover, that the two systems were either/or).

  164. 164
  165. 165
    Steeplejack (tablet) says:

    @NotMax:

    “From the school of Will Eisner.”

  166. 166
    raven says:

    @NotMax:The article said:

    Eisner began a 24 year absence from the comic book world when he founded the American Visuals Corporation in the late 1940s to produce commercial work. As one of the biggest names in the industry, Eisner attracted some of the best aspiring comic artists. Artists you will find in PS Magazine include: Murphy Anderson (Strange Adventures, Mystery in Space, Adam Strange, The Flash, Green Lantern); Mike Ploog (Creepy, Planet of the Apes, Werewolf by Night, Man-Thing); Don Perlin (Werewolf by Night, Ghost Riders, The Defenders); Dan Spiegle (Space Family Robinson, Mangus, Robot Fighter, Korak); and comic strip artist/writer Andre LeBlanc (“The Phantom,” “Flash Gordon,” “Rex Gordon, MD”).

  167. 167
    Cervantes says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Long attributed to Voltaire.

    And incorrectly.

  168. 168
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @raven: It must have been interesting to spend one’s war on something that was obvious obsolescent.

  169. 169
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @Suzanne: The Subaru hybrid isn’t worth the money you spend for the MPG benefit you get out of it. If you want a hybrid, get a Toyota.

  170. 170
    NotMax says:

    Sort of reminded by some of the comments above of the Bette Davis film Storm Center, the first anti-McCarthyism movie made by a major studio. Clunky in its delivery by today’s standards, but worth a look when it comes on TCM.

    Like this paragraph from its Wikipedia page:

    The National Legion of Decency stated the “propaganda film offers a warped, over simplified emotional solution to the complex problems of civil liberties in American life.” Daily Variety responded to the Legion by suggesting “it’s almost impossible to over-dramatize human liberty whether it’s a depiction of Patrick Henry … or a librarian sacrificing her reputation rather than her democratic principles.”

  171. 171
    drkrick says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I think republishing the images is a reasonable response to the situation. It is by no means the only reasonable response.

    I agree. What I object to is the idea that those who choose not to republish are guilty of failing to support free speech and letting the terrorists win.

  172. 172
    raven says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Those were the ships that we gave to UK in Lend Lease as well.

    Gary Maxwell

    A CRUISE WITH A FOUR PIPER

    It was in the year of ’39 down San Diego way,
    Down at the DesBase where the old four pipers lay.

    The Navy said we need them, we’ll have to make them do.
    We’ll need them fast it seems, our numbers are so few.

    The Captain went to work, he went right down the line,
    The old cans got up steam, all in record time.

    The days were long and hard, not from choice I’m sure;
    But the brig was always ready, with a five day diet cure.

    There was one by the name of CRQSBY, also some dozens more.
    The one I have in mind was the old one sixty-four.

    With her sides painted gray and a pennant at the mast,
    She went out on patrol, sea duty again at last.

    The months wore on and on, then a year went by,
    Then suddenly out at Pearl things began to fly.

    This life that for so long had been just a bore,
    Had changed somewhat; the country was at war.

    For awhile there was doubt if the old can would go across;
    But the battles were tough, many ships were lost;

    So she was sent to the yard, her crew went on a spree.
    The next thing they knew they were riding an A.P.D.

    She cleared the dock and headed through the Gate;
    She headed out to sea and to an unknown fate.

    With a stop over at Pearl where the crippled ships lay,
    She got a coat of green on over her coat of gray.

    Headed out once more in a warm tropic breeze,
    She set her course South and toward the South Seas.

    She raced on and on making twenty knots or more,
    With a bone in her teeth, she was off to the war.

    Down through Palmyra and then across the line,
    Through Samoa and Fiji and in Noumea on time.

    On to Espiritu Santos and then Guadalcanal,
    The battle seemed over, except for an occasional val.

    “Be patient my friend”, an old timer once said.
    “Take it easy from here, ’cause you’re a long time dead.”

    We soon found out, and it wasn’t what we thought,
    There were Japs by the thousands, off up the slot.

    Up the slot at night, the next morning come back.
    If you’re lucky, get a night in your sack.

    She heads up the slot, its a dark and quiet night,
    You hope you aren’t discovered, but you see a bright light.

    Look up at the sky and search for a plane up there,
    It’s there you know for sure that was a parachute flare.

    Then into Kula Gulf where sudden death lurks;
    And spend the night of the Fourth with free fireworks.

    With torpedoes in the night, and bombs in the day,
    And shells most any time, makes your hair turn gray.

    It lasts for days and days and days, its enough to make you crack,
    Heading up the Slot, and hope like hell you come back.

    The old ship could take it, the test was on the crew,
    Still on the line and the campaign nearly through.

    Then down to Brisbane and a much needed rest,
    The old can so far had stood every test.

    Then off to “war again, New Guinea it is this time.
    It makes little difference, up on the line,

    On and on she goes a side trip now and then,
    Her screws barely stop turning, she’s on the go again.

    Faster and faster now, on up the New Guinea Coast,
    The crew begins to wonder if the war is over almost.

    Then a good word sang out like a song,
    She’s going to Sydney, but not staying long.

    Off she went again to get some rest for the crew.
    They all Knew they needed it and the ship, she did too.

    It was good while it lasted but that wasn’t long,
    Then a trip to the Philippines was the tune to another song.

    The wind was blowing strong, the sea very rough,
    She might have broken up, but the old ship was tough.

    One more landing to add to the list,
    Just another job, she never would have missed.

    On up the line with Ormac on the way.
    Next stop Mindoro outside Manilla Bay.

    No she’s not through yet, you should have known,
    There’s Corregedor to take before you go home.

    You’ve been hearing rumors, you hope they are true.
    You may go home now, maybe you are through.

    It’s been a long time, yes two long years.
    You’re thinking about home, you shed a few tears.

    You’re headed out East, and hoping you are through,
    And go alongside a tender for repairs that are overdue.

    Then she’s off again, this thing is getting rough,
    You can tell by her looks she’s about had enough.

    It’s a long, long trip you’re taking in a day,
    Maybe if you’re lucky, you won’t have to stay.

    Finally you get out, maybe now you’re through.
    Wrong again they say, it’s Okinawa again for you.

    So back up there again, and then you get the dope,
    You can go home now, if you can get out, you hope!

    She’s headed back East, you hope for the best,
    For awhile It seemed the only direction was West.

    You can take it easy now, or that’s what you think,
    She may keep going and again she may sink.

    You take a look around, she doesn’t look so hot.
    But she’s still headed East and she is all you’ve got.

    You handle her with ease and show every care,
    It you don’t keep her going, you can’t expect to get there.

    Her bilges full of water and her decks covered with rust,
    The word right now is San Francisco or bust.

    The old tin can, she is going to hell,
    She bends in the middle with every big swell,

    Her bulkheads warped and her decks full of cracks,
    What new ships have is what she lacks.

    Her feed pumps groan and her generators rattle,
    Hope she holds out for the Market St. Battle.

    Her feed heater leaks ’til it looks like spray,
    Hope the evaps hold out, every single day.

    Her tanks full of holes and the watertenders shout,
    “The water’s leaking in and the fuel is leaking out,”

    She smokes heavy black and then heavy white,
    She’ll throw a million sparks on a coal black night.

    “What’s the trouble out there,” hear the engine room call;
    “Not much,” comes the answer; “The fires just went out, that’s all!”

    Her wheel rope broke and she tried to turn around,
    Bring her back fast, before she runs aground.

    She’s done seen her day, she’s headed home at last,
    To get a working over from her keel up to her mast.

    With her crew run down and liberty in mind,
    Keep her headed East , don’t lag behind.

    One more lap and not too fast,
    One more speed run, might be her last.

    Keep her under way and we’ll get there soon,
    And hit the beach at Frisco in the light of the moon.
    Clarence E. Maxwell, CMM, USN
    June, 1945

  173. 173
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym:

    You have previously taken the position that it is perfectly okay for employers to dictate policies on acceptable speech of their employees outside the workplace as well.

    A private employer can make decisions on employment for a number of reasons. Some of them contradict existing law, if/when abused. If I am outed as the Southern Avenger I doubt an employer would care to continue that relationship.

  174. 174
    nellcote says:

    Mourad Hamyd, the Charlie Hemdo Teen-Age Wrong Man

    “Third Suspect Surrenders”: that headline was everywhere as France woke up from its first, restless night after a massacre Wednesday at the office of Charlie Hebdo, a satirical magazine. The suspect was Mourad Hamyd, whose name and date of birth (August, 1996) appeared on what was purported to be a police document circulated in the press. Various officials also apparently confirmed that he was, at eighteen years old, a wanted man: “According to authorities, the third and youngest suspect … drove the getaway car.” Some publications noted that Hamyd was “unemployed”—a “delinquent,” like the other two suspects, Chérif and Saïd Kouachi, who are both in their early thirties. He was of “undetermined nationality” and “under arrest”; he had “given up,” “turned himself in,” or, as Le Monde put it, come to his local police station, in the town of Charleville-Mézières, “to explain.”

    At the same time, a group of teen-agers at the Lycée Monge in Charleville were writing their own reports, on Twitter and on Facebook, in a tone that was almost desperate. One with the user name @babydroma wrote, “SVP il était en cours toute la matinée, il est dans ma class”—“please, he was present all morning, he’s in my class.” She added the hashtag #MouradHamydInnocent. Another read, “Mourad Hamyd has been wrongfully accused, he was in class when these things happened, his classmates can vouch for him !!” And they kept doing so, with no apparent doubt or hesitation. One referred to “that smile” having been in school; others pointed to the distance between their town and central Paris (a hundred and forty-five miles). Another tweet mentioned having been with him in philosophy class—a very French place to be, for an eighteen-year-old. Some used the #MouradHamydInnocent hashtag as a Twitter name. Storify has a collection; so does the Guardian, which substantiated @babydroma’s teen-ager-ness, in part, with a reference to her James Franco Twitter wallpaper, and commented that one of @babydroma’s tweets indicated that she might be “frustrated by journalists and others questioning her identity and motive,” and read, “I swear I talked to Mourad maybe five times at most but I felt like I had to help him.” She followed it with “mdr,” for “mort de rire,” roughly “lol”—which might fall in the same evidence category as James Franco wallpaper. But the larger sentiment, and the sense of urgency and obligation on the part of all these teen-agers, suggested that their time in philosophy class might not have been entirely wasted…

    Update: Mourad Hamyd has been released without charges. He was reportedly held for fifty hours. One hopes that wasn’t a minute longer than justified once his classmates came forward, and that his school year and future haven’t been irreparably disrupted.

  175. 175
    raven says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’ll have to dig up the final entry by the Captain in the War Diary that outlines her service.

  176. 176
    drkrick says:

    @scav:

    Agreed. I may have come in mid-thread on a longer debate. But, the argument I saw carried a whiff of that line of attack which perturbed me — much as Violet’s feeling she had to explain Bathily’s action of protecting others by his adoption of “French” cultural values, as though they were antithetical to Islamic ones (and, moreover, that the two systems were either/or).

    An alternative interpretation: I read Violet not as arguing that he had somehow substituted superior French values for Islamic ones as much as arguing that he saw the hostages as fellow French people with whom he had common cause instead of as non-Muslim others with whom he didn’t. Once they’re no longer othered, helping them is as compatible with Muslim values as any others.

  177. 177
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @drkrick: I agree with your interpretation, but I prefer Amid’s view that Bathily simply behaved like a decent human being not a Frenchman, a Muslim, or anything else.

  178. 178
    NotMax says:

    @raven

    The one Daisy Mae-esque woman is highly reminiscent of Dan Spiegle’s work, so that’s definitely a very strong possibility Yet she reminds me more of the females in Iger’s Mike Hammer comic strip.

    I should also add that Eisner (whom I did have the pleasure of meeting) was in every way a gentleman, so have no doubt he sought and received a go-ahead from Capp.

  179. 179
    raven says:

    @NotMax: Well I’m glad I brought it up because I had NO idea of any of this!

  180. 180
    NotMax says:

    @raven

    Eisner’s graphic novels are a wonderment, philosophically both touching and edifying.

    Public libraries often do carry them – if never have read any, start with A Contract With God and Other Tenement Stories.

    He also authored some of the very best works on the art and process of cartooning.

  181. 181
    raven says:

    @NotMax: Cool, thanks. I did like Big Daddy Roth! I’ve just never been into any of that stuff very much. Good thing to explore.

  182. 182
    scav says:

    @drkrick: In this case, no, not really. Violet’s reading seems predicated on him feeling French in order to see them as worthy of being saved and that being born in France and raised there would encourage that. If she was really just opining on a supposed universal tendency toward only feeling a need to save those those like ourselves (especially as measured by passports), there was no reason to drag Islam into it.

    Bathily may feel more French than Islamic as a nationality. He therefore would want to protect and help other French people. If so, it is possible that more young people who are Muslim but were born and raised in France may feel that way.

  183. 183
    raven says:

    @NotMax: But he had nothing to do with R Crumb and those cats?

  184. 184
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It must have been interesting to spend one’s war on something that was obvious obsolescent.

    There’s a scene in Jane Austen’s Persuasion when the dashing hero explains to a couple of shuddering young ladies that (paraphrasing from memory) ‘It is not uncommon for the British Navy to send young captains out on an old ship that is barely holding together… they have not always the capacity to distinguish which crew would be the greatest loss if such a ship is lost in severe weather.’

    (The scene is important to establish that said hero, who is speaking of his own first posting, has an unusually sanguine view of his invulnerability… but Austen knew her audience, and her British Admiralty.)

  185. 185
    mai naem mobile says:

    @Suzanne: i have a murano. I had a pathfinder that i lurv lurv loved(1st brake replacement was at 107k miles) The reason i got the murano is because the ’14 rogues were.in short supply.and they were desperate to get rid of the ’14 muranos and the murano was actually a little cheaper than the ’14 rogues. You might want to check around and see if there are any ’14 muranos left. The mileage wasnt that different. Also i thought the nissans were available in AWD.Anyway, i test drove the suv/crossover subarus and for me the nissans felt bigger but they both felt good.

  186. 186
    mainmati says:

    @Howard Beale IV: Eerily similar in some ways to Oscar Pastorious’ shooting of his girlfriend through the door supposedly thinking she was an intruder. That one ended worse, of course.

  187. 187
    mainmati says:

    @Howard Beale IV: As for Hizb’ullah, they are Shi’ites. Shi’ites do not have a problem drawing pictures of Muhammed; they have done so for centuries, though, of course, not ridiculing him. Sunnis prohibit any depictions of humans (strictly speaking). Hamas, as far as I know, is mainly Sunni so I’m not sure where they are coming from except maybe that they are dependent upon humanitarian aid, including from Europe, so maybe don’t want to bite the hand that feeds you kind of thing.

  188. 188
    Anne Laurie says:

    @raven:

    But he had nothing to do with R Crumb and those cats?

    ‘R Crumb & those cats’ (like Gilbert Shelton) were the next generation after Eisner & his peers. He strongly influenced them (the top American cartoonist award is called the Eisner), and their success would eventually bring Mr. Eisner back into drawing what were now called ‘graphic novels’ instead of ‘comic books’.

    This review has a pretty good capsule summary. IF you’ve never read Wonder Wart Hog or the Furry Freak Brothers, there are samples available all over the web, and I think you’d enjoy them. (I first discovered WWH when I was a small child reading my dad’s motorcycle magazines, to give you an idea.)

  189. 189
    raven says:

    @Anne Laurie: @Anne Laurie: Those are really the only comics I have read.

  190. 190
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Anne Laurie: No criticism or judgment intended, but comic books and graqphic novels have always left me cold. When I read novels, I project a movie inside my head. Graphic novels interfere with that. They give me, I think, too many images and not enough words – and not enough room for my mind to roam. Your and other’s MMV and obviously does.

  191. 191
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @wilfred

    : My point about Maher is that his bigotry against Muslims is condoned because such bigotry is socially acceptable. Do you, or does anyone else, believe that if he started to pick quotes from the Old Testament showing at least the equal, and in most cases far worse, shock value that he would be on television very long.

    ROFL

    Have you ever read the Old Testament all the way threw? How about Maher quote the whole vile, awful thing in context? Like that fucked up Exodus thing and the genocide against the Canaanites it brags about.

    Do you realize the Muslims consider that part of the Koran?

  192. 192
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No criticism or judgment intended, but comic books and graqphic novels have always left me cold.

    That’s how I feel about French films — and jazz. Different tastes!

    I’m sure a lot of my enjoyment of comix is the many fond memories I have of sharing them with my (now deceased) dad, starting when I was five or six. “Serious”/French movies, on the other hand (Hiroshima Mon Amour), were my mother’s idea of a good time… and even if appreciating such films hadn’t been a lot harder for a small child, my memories of my mom are a lot more, shall we say, complicated.

  193. 193
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Anne Laurie: I like French films and some jazz.

  194. 194
    lurker dean says:

    col. morris davis (not sure if legit acct?) is on fire on twitter.

    Col. Morris Davis ‏@ColMorrisDavis 7m7 minutes ago Gainesville, VA
    Props #NFL Commish Goddell for sitting in bleacher seats with regular fans who work in for-profit world for 1/1,000th his non-profit salary.

    Col. Morris Davis @ColMorrisDavis · 7h 7 hours ago
    I don’t get my patriotism advice from a non-veteran foreign born felon … @DineshDSouza

  195. 195
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lurker dean:

    I don’t get my patriotism advice from a non-veteran foreign born felon

    Felon is the only one of those descriptors that arguably is disqualifying.

  196. 196
    lurker dean says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: true, it was a bit over the top but i was just happy to see something thrown in dinesh’s face.

  197. 197
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @lurker dean: Fucking with Dinesh is great. But I have real issues with the military service and native born bits. If you are a citizen, you get an equal voice. Even if you are a gargantuan asshole.

  198. 198
    Mike J says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPad Mini):

    I doubt they named themselves after a Regency romance novel written in the 1950s, but it would be pretty funny if they had!

    I’d be shocked if that wasn’t where she got the name, but of course she started with the name Sophie.

  199. 199
    NotMax says:

    @Omnes Omnibus

    Basically the same reason I’ve never seen any of the recent LOTR movies. Have my own interior filmic version firmly ensconced in the ol’ cranium.

    Still, you might want to give Eisner a tryout, as they’re slice of life tales springing from (and expanded upon) his memory and perspective of a distinct place and time. The atmosphere (one of his trademarks was drawing scenes with rain), the facial expressions, even the posture of his folks is intrinsic and defining to the story progression. Just the words or just the art would be much more hollow and incomplete – the stories were conceived and purposefully designed in toto to be presented in the graphic novel form.

  200. 200
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax: What Peter Jackson did with Gimli, Merry, and Pippen (as a kid, reading the books, Pippen was the character with whom I identified.) was almost criminally wrong.

  201. 201
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax: I understand how the art form works, but it doesn’t work for me.

  202. 202
    Suzanne says:

    @Corner Stone: What he’s referring to is the fact that I defended the right of employers to use morality clauses in employment contracts for prominent individuals, and therefore to fire, for example, a NFL player who may or may not have beaten his then-fiancée in an elevator, even if said NFL player was not convicted in a court of law. For prominent individuals such as celebrities or CEOs of major companies, clauses like that are common, because behavior or speech that is “off the clock” is still of interest to the employer if it is public, because it can very seriously hurt a company’s image or reputation. This is why, for example, a company like H&M could have a celebrity as their spokesperson, and have a legitimate grievance if that celebrity was observed in public saying things that hurt H&M’s brand. I have zero problem with this, especially because all of that stuff is covered in the contract. In a sense, prominent individuals are “on the clock” whenever they’re in public.

    Furthermore, it’s not a free speech issue anyway, because the First Amendment doesn’t give anyone the right to a damn job. It merely gives me the right to not go to jail. It doesn’t give me a forum for my speech, or an audience of sympathetic listeners. It says that the government will take no action against me and that is it.

  203. 203
    Bob In Portland says:

    Cui bono?

  204. 204
    Paul in KY says:

    @Pogonip: How can it be ‘apostasy’ if you don’t believe in it in the 1st place?

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