It’s Always WW II With These Assholes

Random Paul’s latest is a comparison of Obama’s immigration order to Roosevelt’s Japanese-American internment order. Since it’s obvious that giving undocumented immigrants the opportunity to earn citizenship is almost the same thing as locking them up in a prison camp, perhaps I shouldn’t be criticizing the lesser Paul’s latest emission. But my critique is stylistic, not substantive, to wit: Do these fucking wingnuts know that there are other wars in American history besides World War II?

It’s always Hitler this, Hitler that, Manzanar this, Manzanar that with these people. Yet, believe it or not, American soldiers have fought and died in other places and at other times. For example, I would have thought the best comparisons for the last few years of politics would come from the trench warfare stalemates of World War I. “Obama’s failure to invite Mitch McConnell and John Boehner over for cocktails has turned the relationship between the White House and Congress into a modern day Western Front.” See, it wasn’t so hard. And Yahweh knows that Japanese internment is not the only case of war-related American cruelty to other Americans. Andersonville springs to mind, though I realize that bringing up the Civil War in any context other than the rightness of flying the stars and bars is a bit risky for civil rights stalwarts like Aqua Buddha.

If we’re going to have to listen to another two years of frothing at the mouth horseshit, I think we should expect, or even demand, that the wingnuts step it up. Let’s assign the different factions a war. The anti-abortion wackos get Korea, because nobody can stretch an analogy like those nutcases, and there’s going to be some stretching involved (“Abortion is to fetuses like the Chinese crossing the Yalu River was to the UN forces”). Vietnam goes to the warmongers like McCain, who never learn from anything. Southern Republicans get the Civil War because, obviously, they’re still fighting it. There aren’t enough Teabaggers to keep the Revolutionary War, so they must be re-assigned to a minor conflict–let’s say the Spanish American War. The anti-gay fanatics get the War of 1812, because it was still being fought after it was essentially over. I could go on, but you get the picture.






140 replies
  1. 1
    Tommy says:

    You bring up to me reading your post a sidebar question. At what time did his family serve in the military? WWI. WWII. Any time since then? Oh and where did Paul’s family come from would be the first question I’d ask, and under what circumstances.

    These are basic question and betting they couldn’t handle one of them.

  2. 2
    Fred says:

    Can we left of center libruls have The Whiskey Rebelion because, WHISKEY?

  3. 3
    Buddy H says:

    The weird thing (to me at least) is that most conservatives were against intervention in world war II.

    Their hero charles lindbergh was giving speeches about how wonderful Germany was. The conservatives hated FDR, and so if he wanted to intervene, then by god they’d be pacifists.

    The contradictions on the right sometimes make my head spin.

    Here’s an example. In my town, I read my local news outlets. They all feature reader comments. The majority of comments are old white men regurgitating fox news talking points. Conservative women chime in as well. Lots of talking points and barely concealed racism. There are very few progressive commenters in my local news outlets.

    My local conservatives hate Obama (of course), they hate local democratic politicians (even though these democrats are mostly moderate pro-business, chamber of commerce types) and above all they HATE UNIONS. Whenever there is a story about teachers, all the commenters come out with the union bashing.

    Here’s what they don’t get: These union haters LOVE sports. They idolize their jocks. But the players are unionized. The local cops and firemen are unionized. The union haters LOVE their action flicks. The actors are unionized. Every single name you see in the closing credits of the biggest action movie, the gaffers, the focus pullers, the third assistant directors, the post-production crew… they’re all unionized.

  4. 4
    dmsilev says:

    Who gets the War of Jenkins’ Ear? OK, strictly speaking that was before there was a US, but it did peripherally involve the colonies and we can’t let a title like that go un-assigned.

  5. 5
    dmsilev says:

    @Tommy: According to Wikipedia, Ron Paul was in the Air Force and then the National Guard (as a flight surgeon) from 1963 to 1968. No mention if it was service here in the US, in Europe, or if he was in Vietnam.

  6. 6
    max says:

    I could go on, but you get the picture.

    Tsk. No French & Indian war? No Seminole War? King Phillip’s War? Assorted occupations of Haiti?

    Grenada!

    max
    [‘Lincoln County war?’]

  7. 7
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tommy: Why does the Paul family’s military service matter?

  8. 8
    MomSense says:

    @Buddy H:

    There is no consistency, accuracy, or logic in conservative positions. They will completely flip sides on any issue and come up with the spin to message it. They get away with this because our media don’t hold them accountable.

    Cheney used to say publicly that deficits don’t matter. Republicans controlled the House, Senate, and Executive and ran up huge deficits and debt and defended it. They even supported stimulus. As soon as Obama was sworn in it was all anti deficit all day and they were never called on it at all. It’s the same way on so many issues.

    I don’t see much hope of a functioning democracy able to tackle the major challenges humanity faces (CLIMATE CHANGE) if we don’t have some kind of media revolution. Corporate owned media are not going to honestly or accurately provide the information citizens need to make informed decisions. They are not going to hold our elected leaders accountable for the decisions they make.

  9. 9
    JPL says:

    @Buddy H: I read a book awhile back that mentioned that Lindberg’s own daughter didn’t know about her father’s Anti-Semitism until she was in college.

  10. 10
    Woodrowfan says:

    The anti-gay fanatics get the War of 1812, because it was still being fought after it was essentially over.

    nicely done…

    the anti-immigrant nuts get the Mexican-American War because, well, DUH!

  11. 11
    Poopyman says:

    If we’re going to have to listen to another two years of frothing at the mouth horseshit

    Oh, if only it were just the next two years! Also too, you having published this now puts Cleek’s Law into play. Thanks a lot, mistermix.

  12. 12
    MomSense says:

    Speaking of war and Republicans. Our media let the Republicans get away with starting two wars, conducting them incompetently, saying all manner of glowing things about our women and men in uniform, and then failing completely to adequately fund and manage the care they received from the VA.

    The Republicans voted against funding for medical care for 911 responders for FSM sakes after years of invoking 911 and the heroism of 911 responders.

  13. 13
    Tommy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Do you have to ask?

  14. 14
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Buddy H:

    The union haters LOVE their action flicks. The actors are unionized. Every single name you see in the closing credits of the biggest action movie, the gaffers, the focus pullers, the third assistant directors, the post-production crew… they’re all unionized.

    I’ve noticed that too about the hard right conservatives; they seem exceptionally fascinated by movies. I suppose that’s part of the being a victim of propaganda.

    But my critique is stylistic, not substantive, to wit: Do these fucking wingnuts know that there are other wars in American history besides World War II?

    Their knowledge of American history is confined to History Channel documentaries and high school history classes. I had a conversation with an “educated” conservative, she did claim to have a minor history, and she was pushing the same old conservative trope about the French being a bunch of surrender monkeys who never won a battle until I pointed out Battle of the Chesapeake , which is sort of majorly critical to American history.

  15. 15
    Tommy says:

    @dmsilev: I don’t think Rand is an American Indian. Where did this family come from?

  16. 16
    Baud says:

    Who gets Grenada?

  17. 17
    dmsilev says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    I had a conversation with an “educated” conservative, she did claim to have a minor history, and she was pushing the same old conservative trope about the French being a bunch of surrender monkeys who never won a battle until I pointed out Battle of the Chesapeake , which is sort of majorly critical to American history.

    Did she know anything about the First World War?

  18. 18
    skerry says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: @Tommy: Tommy takes great pride in his family history of military service.

  19. 19
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tommy: I just did. Seriously, why do you think the family’s military service matters?

  20. 20
    MattF says:

    It’s notable that Paul had to reach back to Roosevelt to find an example of executive overreach. One could think of several GWB/Cheney examples, but that would be impolite.

  21. 21
    Mike J says:

    @Baud:

    Who gets Grenada?

    Massive government bailout of private enterprise med schools that set up in Grenada to escape the oppressive hand of government regulation? Gotta be libertarians.

  22. 22
    Johnny Coelacanth says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: That kind of nuttery is so fucking stupid because even a cursory glance at the history of Europe will demonstrate that the French were some bloodthirsty motherfuckers. From teh Wiki: “According to the British historian Niall Ferguson, France has participated in 168 major European battles, out of which it won 109, drew 10 and lost 49, which according to him makes France the most successful military power in European history.”

  23. 23
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @skerry: I am interested in my family’s history, but the fact that I, for example, have several ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War does not say anything about me, my patriotism, my fitness for office, or anything other than my eligibility for membership in the Sons of the American Revolution.

  24. 24
    Botsplainer says:

    @dmsilev:

    There were French towns that lost ALL of their young men; the Great War gutted an entire generation and consumed the wealth accumulated from four centuries of colonialism.

    By the late 30s the French military still suffered from this manpower and professional careerist deficit, plus, the reckless command decisionmakers were essentially the same from the Great War.

  25. 25
    MomSense says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    I had a number of ancestors who were involved in that battle–salty, downeast ship captains and sailors who knew routes that they had used for many years to evade British ships in the established shipping lanes.

  26. 26
    MattF says:

    @Botsplainer: Not to mention that the French were victorious in WWI. So, counting wins and losses sort of misses the point.

  27. 27
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Johnny Coelacanth: One of the (many) things that gave me pause about the Iraq War was the fact that the French were opposed. Seriously, if there is a military involvement that the French think is a bad idea, it probably is a bad idea.

  28. 28
    Tommy says:

    @skerry: Thank you Sherry. I forgot Paul’s father served. My bad. My grandfather was a flight surgeon as well. Hats off. Bow down.

    But you seem to want to harp on service when that was only a single point of my comment. Where did the Paul family come from? They are not saying they are native American Indians (or not yet).

    We’ve seen this time and time again. Current immigrants not wanting new immigrants to come to this nation. I am fucking sick of it. I could care less, let them in. That was my point. Sorry if I was not clear. I hope this makes it clear.

  29. 29
    skerry says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: No argument from me. I have ancestors in this country dating back to 1600s and people fought in every war (and some undeclared wars) as well as some living family members still on active duty. None of this reflects on me in any way as an individual as I have never been a member of any armed service. I did work for DoD, both as civilian employee and contractor – but I fully recognize the huge difference between that and military service.

    Some people may feel differently.

  30. 30
    Tommy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Because people that don’t serve didn’t serve. If I have to explain this in more detail I can’t. I would love to take you to Thanksgiving. A room with service members from WWII to the present. I know you will take offense to this, but honestly from the things you’ve said to me you would not make it an hour in the room.

  31. 31
    Cervantes says:

    @Tommy:

    I don’t think Rand is an American Indian. Where did this family come from?

    Even most ancestors of Native Americans came here from somewhere (Asia).

    Anyhow, Rand Paul is German on his father’s side and French on his mother’s — but I doubt these facts matter in the current “debate” about how much to make immigrants from Latin America suffer.

  32. 32
    rikyrah says:

    I don’t know where Tommy is coming from about military service, but here is where I am coming from….it galls me that those who pound the drums of war fall usually into the following categories:
    1) they never served themselves..
    This, of course includes Vice President ” I had better things to do” Dick Cheney.
    2) they have a file full of votes AGAINST anything that helps the average soldier, but never saw a giveaway to a defense contractor that they would vote against…looking at you John McCain.

  33. 33
    Cervantes says:

    @Tommy:

    Because people that don’t serve didn’t serve. If I have to explain this in more detail I can’t. I would love to take you to Thanksgiving. A room with service members from WWII to the present. I know you will take offense to this, but honestly from the things you’ve said to me you would not make it an hour in the room.

    What is all this about?

  34. 34
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tommy: I asked why the family’s history of military service mattered to you because it seems to me to be entirely unrelated to the issue. The family’s immigration history did not.

    @Tommy: Why would I not make an hour in a room full of veterans?

  35. 35
    Tommy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: You don’t get it.

    I am a military brat. Going to schools on a base shaped who I was. Lived in Lousiana, Texas, Kansas, and Illinoiis. All before ten. You just don’t get it.

  36. 36
    skerry says:

    @Cervantes: I’m not getting this either.

  37. 37
    Tommy says:

    @rikyrah: Kind of my point, but OK.

  38. 38
    Mike J says:

    OT: red? Wow.

  39. 39
    MomSense says:

    O/T but Germany dropped the probe of US spying on Merkel saying it amounted to “…A lot of hot air, but nothing done.”

  40. 40
    Tommy says:

    @Cervantes: Small pissing match with “Omnes Omnibus” (maybe partly, yeah partly my falut). History behind it. I will walk away….

  41. 41
    Mike J says:

    @MomSense: If CIA/NSA weren’t spying on Germany everybody there should be fired.

  42. 42
    Citizen_X says:

    What does Japanese-internment-fan Michelle Malkin think of this smearing of our noble American concentration camps?

    (And, dear Great Maker: could we have a meeting between Rand Paul and actual childhood interment victim George Takei pls? Kthxbye.)

  43. 43
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @dmsilev: On behalf of my fellow Canadians, we will take the Pig War, a border dispute back in the 1850s over some islands between Vancouver Island and the mainland.

    In good Canadian tradition, no shots were fired, except at the pig

  44. 44
    MomSense says:

    @Mike J:

    I’m sure we were spying on Germany as they spy on us. This probe was IIRC about alleged spying on Merkel personally and on German industry, businesses, etc.

    Turns out they found a lot of Chinese spying on German businesses but they can’t say for certain whether it was private spying or government spying.

  45. 45
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Tommy: You may not be aware of it, but I was a Field Artillery officer once upon a time. As a result, I think I do “get” what military service means.

    ETA: That is, I “get” what it means to me. It something that is, and should be, different for every individual based on who they are and what they did.

  46. 46
    Citizen_X says:

    @Mike J: Sure, you’re expected to spy on your allies, but you’re supposed to do it discreetly. *Koffkoff lookingatyouIsrael koff*

  47. 47
    samiam says:

    Muckymux still hasn’t figured out that it’s all political theater and the script is always about fearmongering. WWII and Hitler being some of the most powerful images if ones intent is to fearmonger.

    From someone who so thoroughly drank the “Sarah Palin is going to run” Koolaid I guess one shouldn’t expect much in the way of rational logic and reason.

  48. 48
    Johnny Coelacanth says:

    @Tommy: I too am curious why he wouldn’t “make it an hour.” What’s the condition for ‘not making it?’ Breaking down in tears, running out of the room ahead of a mob, yawning in boredom, what?

  49. 49
    Josie says:

    @samiam: God, you are so boring. You react to mistermix the same way that conservatives react to Obama and make about as much sense.

  50. 50
    Wag says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Fascinating tidbit about the Battle of the Chesapeake. I had never heard of this battle until today. Thanks for the link.

  51. 51
    Gvg says:

    @Cervantes: Cheating on a bargain. there is a social contract unspoken but there. soldiers give up their individual freedom and act under orders to support their society and society pays back with well medical care, pay, and tries to give competent leaders and reasonable orders. the type of politician or just loudmouth acquaintance who angers us are the ones who borrow societies respect for soldiers who aren’t themselves soldiers and by actions and votes actually hurt soldiers. this mean Chiney and Rumsfeild who wrapped themselves in the mantle of warriors but weren’t and had actively avoided service, then attacked others for “unpatriotic” acts who had actually served. They and others also got us into a stupid unwinnable war killing soldiers for no benefit to America. they follow up by cheating on funding health care but think it’s fine to waste money on defense contractors. In other words they are chickenhawks and con men.

  52. 52
    Dcrefugee says:

    My family has had problems with immigrants ever since we came to this country…

  53. 53
    Amir Khalid says:

    @samiam:
    I doubt very much that any Balloon Juicer — front-pager or commenter — ever believed after 2009 that Sarah Palin would run for president. Why should she? She makes a perfectly comfortable living from her other grifting.

  54. 54
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Gvg:

    In other words they are chickenhawks and con men.

    Of course, and I have nothing but contempt for that type of politician.

    They and others also got us into a stupid unwinnable war killing soldiers for no benefit to America. they follow up by cheating on funding health care but think it’s fine to waste money on defense contractors.

    People who served in the military also were involved in this type of behavior (e.g., Rumsfeld and Powell).

  55. 55
    scav says:

    @Josie: There does seem to be a resurgence of the automated, no-effort required, boilerplate, bog-standard contrary personal-abuse troll recently. Can’t really distinguish them by name, the style is so banal. I infer an unusually persuasive Trending Fashion article in Trolls Monthly.

  56. 56
    MomSense says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    People who served in the military also were involved in this type of behavior (e.g., Rumsfeld and Powell).

    Asshole politicians are asshole politicians.

  57. 57
    The Ancient Randonneur says:

    @Dcrefugee:

    My family has had problems with immigrants ever since we came to this country…

    Win.

  58. 58
    SRW1 says:

    @dmsilev:

    What about that Napoleon dude?

  59. 59
    Josie says:

    @scav: Agreed. You state it much more elegantly than I did.

  60. 60
    john fremont says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Also too, my sister dated a cadet from West Point for a while back in the 1980’s. When asked about military history and if they studied the Civil War he said some but they mainly studied a lot of Napoleon’s campaigns in Europe. The French Army was one to be reckoned with at one time.

  61. 61
    Poopyman says:

    @Just One More Canuck: Actually, you could take the War of 1812, since the US seemed convinced that once they defeated the Brits the Canadians would welcome them as liberators, (sound familiar?). A bunch of rather stupid invasion attempts followed, countered by invasion attempts by the Brits since, well, they were at war with the US. Made for a lot of action along the border.

  62. 62
    samiam says:

    @Amir Khalid: Nobody with half a brain believed that. I don’t even think Cole believed it and he seems to be far short of half.

    Muckymux did as did a lot of the other morons who frequent dkos. He was sure of it. Google is your friend. Unless he went and deleted those posts but the guy doesn’t seem competent enough to administer this site much less do something as mundane as that.

  63. 63
    West of the Cascades says:

    For obvious reasons, Joni Ernst gets the Pig War – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War

  64. 64
    Cervantes says:

    @Tommy:

    You’re both eminently reasonable people, or so I believe. Whatever the dispute, I am sure it does not need to fester.

  65. 65
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MomSense: Exactly. That was one of the reasons I was asking Tommy about why the military service angle was so important. To me, the asshole politician part of the equation is what matters.

  66. 66
    Poopyman says:

    @Dcrefugee: That about sums it all up.

  67. 67
    Ruckus says:

    @rikyrah:
    To me this is a valid argument. They bullshit about the military for their own supposed benefit. They don’t care about anyone, anything else. Only who and what they can use.
    On the other hand I don’t really care if someone served. I did volunteer, during war. Big deal. Lots of my friends didn’t, some did. And the stupidest lib I’ve ever talked to served in the AF during Vietnam.
    Service doesn’t bestow upon one the gift of gracious thought, anti racism, wondrous abilities, admiration of the opposite(or same) sex….. Many have suffered death and injury from military service, many more did not. Many have seen things no human should have to see but do, many more did not. That’s the risk you take when you enlist, but in my opinion it does not entitle one special status as citizens. Just like someone about my age told me a few weeks ago that he didn’t think that someone in their 20s should have a voice about government. My answer was they absolutely should, if for no other reason they have to live here after we are gone. We can’t dismiss people who didn’t serve because most do not, we can’t dismiss the young because we all were at one time, we can’t dismiss the poor because we can all be there far easier than one might imagine.
    Shorter, we all need to have some respect for our fellow humans, whoever, whatever they may be, liberals for the most part do, conservatives for the most part don’t.

  68. 68
    Poopyman says:

    @SRW1:

    What about that Napoleon dude?

    He was Corsican. Doesn’t count.

  69. 69
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ruckus: This. Exactly this.

  70. 70
  71. 71
    Poopyman says:

    The Pig War!

    It turned out that the pig was owned by an Irishman, Charles Griffin, who was employed by the Hudson’s Bay Company to run the sheep ranch.[2][6][8] He also owned several pigs which he allowed to roam freely.

    Sure, the fuckin’ Irish always get blamed for troubles.

  72. 72
    jon says:

    I think Grenada should go to the True Conservative Net Neutrality anti-Obama side, since whatever the hell happens, there’s going to be a lot of hooting and hollering about why this is an important fight that needed to be fought.

  73. 73
    MomSense says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I agree.

  74. 74
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Poopyman: Well, to be fair, violations of Belgian neutrality couldn’t be blamed that time around.

  75. 75
    Seth Owen says:

    @dmsilev: @dmsilev: n@dmsilev: n @dmsilev: There was that Napoleon dude, too. I heard he won a few battles here and there.

  76. 76
    dance around in your bones says:

    Well, “Random Paul” just made my day. Muchas gracias!!

  77. 77
    MomSense says:

    @Ruckus:

    Shorter, we all need to have some respect for our fellow humans, whoever, whatever they may be, liberals for the most part do, conservatives for the most part don’t.

    Well said. I have noticed that conservatives can sometimes excuse, forgive, and even change their opinion on an issue like marriage equality but only if it affects someone close to them. Liberals seem to have empathy that extends to human beings outside of their immediate circles of friends, colleagues, and family.

  78. 78
    beth says:

    So now kids are apparently tweeting unappetizing pictures of their healthy school lunches under the hashtag #thanksmichelleobama. Not surprisingly, the photos look a lot like the same school lunches I was throwing out almost 40 years ago. How much you wanna bet this whole thing started with some wingnut parents or over at our flying monkey friends at Twitchy? Really, using your kids to do shit like this is pretty freaking low.

  79. 79
    dance around in your bones says:

    “Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor??!!” Toga! Toga!

  80. 80
    SRW1 says:

    @Poopyman:

    True that about Napoleon. But the core of the guys who did the marching, shooting, and dying for him were kind of French.

  81. 81
    Ruckus says:

    @MomSense:
    This is how conservatives can have black friends and still be racists. Or think their local NFL franchise is the greatest collection of humans and still be the same. Or think the military is wonderful and deny vets the benefits they were given. Or think that robing a pension plan for the money is OK. Or…..
    Their sphere of humanity is tiny, only what they can fit into their little brains. They use the rest of their “thought process” to justify their selfish little lives.

  82. 82
    skerry says:

    OT: So this happened today. “Liberal media” vs on-the-ground #Ferguson protestor

  83. 83
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Baud:

    Who gets Grenada?

    First we take Manhattan. then we take Grenada…..

  84. 84
    satby says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: and Tommy didn’t serve in the military IIRC, but his family’s service has given him military cred by osmosis, I guess.

  85. 85
    satby says:

    @Ruckus: yes, thank you!

  86. 86
    dmsilev says:

    @SRW1:

    What about that Napoleon dude?

    In the end, he lost.

  87. 87
    J R in WV says:

    @Dcrefugee:

    This is too Sweet – you win the innertubes for today. Where should it be delivered?

    Thanks for your witty service!!

  88. 88
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @dmsilev: you don’t have to go back nearly that far. I mean, the French lost at Dien Bien Phu, and it was a stupid campaign and they had no business being there anyway, but you can’t say they didn’t fight.

    When you consider that the USA went through the exact same thing, in the exact same place, on a grander scale over the succeeding twenty year period…well, the wingnuts at least ought to know about it.

  89. 89
    Ruckus says:

    @satby:
    I’m not sure that’s fair here. Tommy has made no bones about his military service. And he made it clear he was discussing/defending his families military service. Tommy has made it clear over time that he admires his family, thinks very highly of them and is proud of them. Not all of us have been that fortunate with our families, some have rotten parents or only one or no parents/families. We are almost all from dysfunctional families, the difference is how much dysfunction, not that it exists. That’s what makes us human, that range of how we were brought up, what we do/did with it.

  90. 90
    Suffern ACE says:

    I assume the people being interred are good white voters who are trapped getting their bags of McDonald’s burgers handed to them by someone named Gonzalez while He-Joo Cho is the reason they have to press 1 for English on the phone.

  91. 91
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Ruckus: You are SO right. When I look at photos of Vietnam vets I’m always amazed at how YOUNG they were – I know you were, what? 17-18? when you went in the service?

    And ALL the vets I knew NEVER wanted to talk about that fucked up war……I mean, ALL war is fucked up, but Vietnam went on for waaaaay too long and killed waaaaaay too many young guys and …..well, you know.

    I had a really good friend who was a paraplegic from that fucked up war, and we used to hang out together in bars back when we both drank – he drove a truck with hand controls and would throw his wheelchair in the back.

    Pretty much every guy I knew dodged the draft, because by 1969-70 or so? it was apparent that it was a clusterfuck, I do NOT disparage people who dodged the draft, and I do NOT fall on my knees in front of vets (“We’re not worthy!”) because it just embarrasses them and they don’t want to talk about it anyway.

    I think of John Lennon singing “Imagine” – a peacenik, doncha know? And look what happened to HIM. Life is kinda fucked up at times.

  92. 92
    NotMax says:

    There’s about 27 different varieties of Battle of the Bulge taunts, comments or jokelets branching out from that post.

  93. 93
    max says:

    @dmsilev: In the end, he lost.

    Yeah, but mainly because he had done so much conquering that he was left with nothing but Russia and England.

    @Poopyman: He was Corsican. Doesn’t count.

    Murat, Ney, Davout, Bernadotte, DeSaix, Massena & etc. certainly were French. As was LaFayette, as was of course, the French squadron that blockaded the British at Yorktown.

    max
    [‘And then there’s that whole business of the Battle of the Marne.’]

  94. 94
    trollhattan says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    There’s a bit of conflict inherent in choosing between grifting and running. Pure grifting is a lot less work but doesn’t sate the desire for attention that campaigning feeds. In Sarah’s case, laziness won the day.

  95. 95
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax: Nuts.

  96. 96
    A. Simpson says:

    I’ve been a fan of this blog a long time.
    This is one of the funniest – it’s funny cuz it’s true – posts ever.
    thanx

  97. 97
    trollhattan says:

    @Citizen_X:
    No kidding. I’ve known quite a few folks born in the camps and many more whose folks lost everything when they were interned. Rand needs a meeting with them while the cameras are rolling. Suggest at Manzanar.

  98. 98
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @max: the rightwing obsession with the French confuses me. One of the rare moments I was glad to be clicking through Fox news was when the president of Mexico said something disrespectful about president W, and O’Reilly was threatening to call for an American boycott of Mexican travel and goods, and he declared in all his absolute, blustering buffoonish confidence, “Go ask the French what happens during an O’Reilly boycott!”

    I wish the motherfucker had. “C’est qui? C’est quoi?” I imagine a couple of tour operators had a few cancelations, but I suspect there was no noticeable drop in traffic at Charles de Gaulle or the Louvre

  99. 99
    Ruckus says:

    @dance around in your bones:
    I was 20 when I signed up in 69. Turned 21 in boot camp. I was, if not the oldest in my company, very close to it. I joined for several reasons, probably the biggest was that 1/3 of the people being inducted the day I took my physical went into the Marines. Now I have nothing but respect for Marines but my understanding was that a draftee in the Marines was going to Vietnam full stop and had a life expectancy of 2 weeks after arriving in country. I didn’t like those odds. I spent 2 months in a navy hospital towards the end of my service and most of the guys in there were Marines. The worst were not the wheel chairs or the missing limbs or…., it was the mental destruction, the lives that many would never get to live, the stories that would make you gag, the deaths that many lived over and over, the almost hatred that some had for themselves for what they had to do, the amazement that they would do it, the horror that they did. They don’t talk about it for a reason. These are not stories about a HS game or getting drunk/stoned/screwed, this is reality for the rest of their lives. I didn’t live them but I remember some of them and wish I couldn’t. They did live them and can’t forget, no matter how hard they try.
    BTW the lottery came a month after I signed up and my number was 15. I was IA. I was going one way or another. I’m glad I did what I did. It worked out for me in the long run. It didn’t for many.

  100. 100
    tybee says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    that reminds me, wonder how the p0ker tournament is going today…

  101. 101
    Librarian says:

    There was not only WW I, there were a few centuries when France was the no. 1 world military power, especially under Louis XIV and Napoleon. So this whole thing about the French being cowards is totally bullshit.

  102. 102
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    @trollhattan: George Takei would be a good start.

  103. 103
    JPL says:

    @MomSense: For years, the whackos on the radio dissed political correctness and at the same time rid the country of common decency.

  104. 104
    Mnemosyne says:

    I wonder sometimes if the references to French “cowardice” have more to do with the Vichy government than actual battle behavior, with “cowardice” being a kindly euphemism for “traitors.”

  105. 105
    Ruckus says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    Well as it’s always projection with conservatives, I’d say it’s more looking for a scapegoat to hide their own inadequacies.
    Also as @Omnes Omnibus: pointed out, the French were against our war in Iraq. Conservatives shinning achievement, Iraq, was being dissed. That can’t stand. I mean those chickenshit French, being against such a noble cause as Iraq, they must be made fun of.
    OK I have to stop or I’ll make myself sick.

  106. 106
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Ruckus: Jeezus, Ruckus. I hear you. I was with a guy when his brother brought in his ‘letter’ from Uncle Sam inviting him to join the Army. He just went totally pale.

    My husband (well, future husband) spent a LOT of time trying to get out of the draft. When he had to go to the military base, he refused to “get on the bus”. He followed it in his Corvette. (Yeah, his Mom spoiled him a bit).No fucking way.

    He finally got a letter from some Amish woman who told the Army he’d be a rather bad bet on the ‘respecting authority’ thing. and it was 100% true. He’d never have made it through boot camp w/o like strangling someone or killing himself.

  107. 107
    PIGL says:

    @Ruckus: Thank you for this story.

  108. 108
    Ruckus says:

    @dance around in your bones:
    Older sister had a friend who was a college professor who got his notice. Told them he was not suited for the military. They laughed. He went. Now I don’t know if this is true or not, sounds too out there to be real but still, a good story is a good story. He was given a paint brush and paint and told to paint a truck. So he did. All of it. windows, tires, seats, all the metal, every sq inch. When questioned his response was, “I was ordered to paint the truck, I painted the truck. I wasn’t told to only paint the metal or the previously painted parts, I was told to paint the truck. It’s painted, I followed my orders to the letter.” Never did hear what happened next but I’d bet it wasn’t the discharge he was expecting. When I was in navy boot camp the outliers were given shovels and made to dig six foot holes in soft sand and then fill them back up. Two armed SPs watching. This would go on until the subject cried uncle. In their off hrs they had to clean the floor tile in the discipline barracks with tooth brushes. If they ended up “learning” their lesson they got reassigned to a new company and started boot camp all over. If it became obvious they would never change they got a general discharge.

  109. 109
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: I don’t think so. I think it is comes down to two things: first, the French army’s collapse in 1940 and, second, military planners in the ’50s who were looking for a reason to say why our involvement in Southeast Asia would not play out the same why the French involvement did seized on that 1940 event and built a meme.*

    *They also cherry picked the Franco-Prussian War.

  110. 110
    A Humble Lurker says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    The French have a much better quality of life because of the evil government being more involved with their daily life. Fox doesn’t want anyone to find out about this because they’re afraid they’ll go ‘Why not us too?’ and then they’ll demand money from wall street and the oil guzzlers to make it so. Right wingers see the French and really all of Europe as a threat to their life philosophy.

  111. 111
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    …the same way the French involvement….

    Derp.

  112. 112
    Ruckus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    At least I read it the correct way. Until you pointed it out.

  113. 113
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ruckus: I noticed it with 2 seconds left in the edit window.

  114. 114
    gian says:

    @Tommy:
    I was an army brat. I don’t get it either. Dad went to west point and Vietnam. Brother and sister did desert storm and sister went back for bush’s blunder.
    They don’t seem to have massive chips on their shoulders.

  115. 115
    Ruckus says:

    @A Humble Lurker:
    Actually I think it’s the ‘like to be filthy rich’ who see there aren’t as many almost filthy rich in Europe as here and are afraid they couldn’t be almost filthy rich for the same reason. The really filthy rich here on the other hand are no different than the really filthy rich anywhere. Have a friend who just moved back to one of those European disasters, where people are more comfortable and the roads are maintained and most every one votes and all have health care, people can retire without having to save cat food coupons, everyone gets a decent education…. But of course if everyone is treated equally and has a decent life how will Stan and Suzie stand out in the crowd and how can Stan jr and Buffy feel better than everyone else?

  116. 116
    gian says:

    @Ruckus:
    For your WWI history food names sourkraut was “liberty cabbage”

  117. 117
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Ruckus: Well, that’s a great fucking story, too!

    Sounds kinda like the original M.A.S.H. movie……which I will still watch when it comes on again.

    I just think it’s awful to send kids – 17-18-19-20-21 etc to WAR. Fuck that shit. Let the old guys who voted for it go instead. Or send their OWN fucking kids, if they believe in the Freedumb thing so much.

    Uh-oh – Groundhog Day outside! I just moved into this new place, and I kept seeing a guy with a straw hat very carefully picking around the lawns, so yesterday I went out and asked him “Are you like the gardener or something?” Turns out he OWNS the house, and has for the last 40-50 years! Lives just around the corner. Caught 56 groundhogs this year.

    I think we need Bill Murray to nuke them from orbit, ’cause it’s the only way to be sure.

  118. 118
    satby says:

    @Ruckus: You clearly are a really nice guy. I’m just not a fan of experience by proximity. My kid was sent to Iraq and Afghanistan over 5 deployments, as a Marine, and I don’t feel that gives me special insight into anything other than how a family feels when they have a military members in a war zone. I’m certainly not extra qualified to imply that other people “don’t get it” about anything.

  119. 119
    Ruckus says:

    @dance around in your bones:
    If you are a legislator and vote for any kind of war, you should be the first in line to serve, or better yet you get automatically drafted. Sort of like Warren Buffet’s deficit plan.

    The people who vote for the rest of us have to have skin in the game. And they don’t, they have our skins, they have nothing to lose but possibly a re-election and the chances of that are pretty small. We like our wars, more when we win but many seem to like them all, for reasons that pass understanding.

  120. 120
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Nuts.

    About a month early for that one.

    And Belgium is still not part of France.

  121. 121
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: As an artilleryman, I always enjoy that one (McAuliffe was the division artillery commander for the 101st).

    ETA: Why would France want it?

  122. 122
    Ruckus says:

    @satby:
    I had a long thing I wrote and just deleted it all. What I meant was that Tommy has in the past been very clear about his lack of military service and his families military background. Your comment just struck me as a little over the top, very little if I’m honest, on rereading the whole thing.
    So if possible, never mind?

  123. 123
    Mike in NC says:

    Prominent local wingnut submitted a letter to the editor where he ranted about the Boston Tea Party (1773) and how the tyrannical King William III was just like Obama. Problem is, William III died in 1702. George III was king during the Revolution. Teabaggers are totally ignorant of our history, and everything else for that matter.

  124. 124
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mike in NC: It’s even funnier when you remember that William and Mary were asked to take the throne only on the condition that they accept limited authority and a strong Parliament.

  125. 125
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    As an artilleryman, I always enjoy that one (McAuliffe was the division artillery commander for the 101st).

    I remember reading about it I was about 8 or 9. Made an impression on me (obviously).

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    ETA: Why would France want it?

    Hey, I’m not the one who started in on the cheese-eating surrender monkeys, pal.

  126. 126
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    William and Mary were asked to take the throne only on the condition that they accept limited authority and a strong Parliament.

    They were just angling to get a college named after them. Since there were no USPS centers they could name.

  127. 127
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW:

    Hey, I’m not the one who started in on the cheese-eating surrender monkeys, pal.

    Neither was I.

  128. 128
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Neither was I.

    Didn’t say you were. But I think you were giving aid and comfort to the francophiles.

  129. 129
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: Many Belgians are francophone. Just saying.

  130. 130
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Just saying.

    I was trying to shoehorn in something about you being phlegmatic, but that would probably mark me as an twerp.

  131. 131
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Ruckus: I TOTALLY agree. I mean, they always talk about the poors who get govt benefits having to have ‘skin in the game’ To like earn it or something.

    How ’bout THEY put some “skin in the game/war?” (Like, literally).

  132. 132
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: Might have been a bridge too far. (Yeah, that’s in the Netherlands.)

  133. 133
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    (Yeah, that’s in the Netherlands.)

    Actually, I’m glad you noted that, because it exposed a mistake in my “knowledge.” (I had – until a few minutes ago – thought it was about the bridge at Remagen. From using Teh Google, I now know better.) So, thanks!

  134. 134
    satby says:

    @Ruckus: we’re cool.

  135. 135
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @SFAW: De rien.

  136. 136
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: As long as we are on the subject of Belgium and war, the First Battle of Ypres ended 100 years ago today.

  137. 137
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: No no, mi amigo, you say Danke in Dutch, or Dank u Velle…..

    or alstublieft if you’re begging for something or saying “please” as ……well I guess you could fill in the blanks.

    Of course, you are prolly a cheese eating surrender monkey so of course you espreken ze French (quite liberally misspelled and no doubt totally wrong) but I like to tease a little bit……..)

  138. 138
    SFAW says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Feckin’ frog.

    (Although, if I were going to mess wit’ you, I shoulda written “pan Polski?”)

    Which also reminds me:
    @Poopyman:

    Sure, the fuckin’ Irish always get blamed for troubles.

    “Feckin’ ” if you please, when yer talking about the Irish.

  139. 139
    D58826 says:

    @Buddy H: Ronulus the Great and Powerful was president of the screen actors guild in the late 40’s

  140. 140

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