If you have managed to avoid Hollaback’s “10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman” and the subsequent insanity/commentary/ridiculousness that has occurred as a result, then you probably live in a cabin in the woods with no electricity.
While some critics have pointed out that the video is problematic due to where it was shot and the focus on men of color being the primary catcallers, it has started a needed dialogue about street harrassment that has gotten very heated.
Team Blackness delves into why unwarranted commentary from men on the street is a problem, and one caller tries very unsuccessfully to explain why “it’s no big deal.”
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greennotGreen
As I woman, I can attest that catcalling is a problem. That being said, simply addressing someone on the street is not a catcall, and I thought that some of the men of color who spoke to her were not being disrespectful or threatening. If someone asked me, “How’s it going?” I’d just say, “Fine, thank you. How ya doin’,” and just keep walking. No need to be rude.
That being said, most of the guys were being jerks.
Joshua James
The makers of the vid responded to questions of racial bias here:
http://gothamist.com/2014/10/30/how_the_100_catcalls_in_10_hours_st.php
btw, Elon, for some reason I note that whenever you do one of these posts, it seems to come out a double post, not sure why.
Another Holocene Human
@greennotGreen: I disagree. She was looking straight ahead, and total strangers were trying to engage her. That is totally different from a conversation over a news stand or at a bus stop.
re: the nontroversy: Men of color my ass, the actress looks like she could be a bit mixed herself, ie, maybe you would get different fish hooked with different bait, think about that? And have the people who are making this criticism been to New York lately? NYC is like the freaking UN! Jesus!
rk
I’m hearing so much that it’s NY city, and Hispanic and Black men who are doing this and is not representative of all men. Let me just say that this is very much a problem all across the board. My daughter says this happens to her almost every single time she is out with her friends (and it’s all white guys because that’s where we live). Some small boys in our neighborhood (10-11 yrs old) yelled out “nice body” when she and her friend were out for a walk. Women face so much harassment in other ways as well, ranging from inappropriate comments, touching or just lewd gestures.This is just the tip of an iceberg.
Starfish
James Urbaniak @JamesUrbaniak
What you don’t see in the street harassment video is that each guy just wanted to start a conversation about ethics in gaming journalism.
the Conster
@greennotGreen:
It’s not just “someone” on the street. It’s a stranger that has no business with her. Do you address any random stranger on the street? Why can’t they just mind their own goddamned business?
Another Holocene Human
@Joshua James: Yup, exactly.
Somehow, this can’t be real. That hits too close to home. It must be some sort of O’Keefe/Breitbart video editing fix-up job, right?
They should do a followup. With a trans person. If you want to see some scary catcalling and stalking. They’d have to pay hazard pay though, I think.
rk
@greennotGreen:
Except are these same men going to ask other men how they’re doing or do they just want to know how women are doing? Do men go around saying “hi how you doing” to each other? I honestly don’t know. Maybe the men can chime in and let us know how many times they greet each other on the streets.
samiam
Lol. I just knew someone at ball juice would take this bait. US pulling out of Afghanistan after a decade + war that Cole whined about non-stop and now has absolutely nothing to say about it…..yawwwwwn!
Someone who spends 10 hours walking around sketchy neighborhoods just to get 2 minutes of blogger bait catcall video. Oh ball juice is ALL OVER THAT….haha
NonyNony
@greennotGreen:
But as a (white) man I have to say – I have never been as frequently addressed on a street as she was. Hell I get ignored most of the time except by panhandlers. And I’ve even had panhandlers say less to me than the guys on that video that were just addressing her.
As a woman maybe you’ve grown callouses to it because you have to deal with it but as a man I have never experienced it. I’m telling you I have literally NEVER been in a situation where that many people are trying to get my attention. I would find that kind of attention infuriating in a very short period of time and probably end up punching someone if it were what I had to put up with regularly.
(My wife has told me about this stuff but of course I never see it when I’m with her. Seeing it in video it’s actually worse than I imagined from the shit she’s told me she has to deal with. Probably because she leaves out the bits that have just become normal background noise to her and only tells me about the absolute worst bits.)
greennotGreen
Maybe I’m wrong, but I think it’s a cultural difference. You’d need to repeat the experiment with a man. Also, to address any question of racism, a woman of color should try the walk through predominantly white neighborhoods. It’s my experience, at least in the South, that black men are more likely to address a stranger walking by and that saying hi back results in nothing more than a nod in return.
Betty Cracker
Heaps of hard-won wisdom aside (ha!), the ONE advantage I’ve noticed about being middle-aged is that I can finally walk down the goddamn street in peace. I don’t miss that bullshit at all.
greennotGreen
@NonyNony: You are absolutely right that it may mean those same guys would never greet a passing male, but how about a black male? I think we need more data.
KG
@the Conster: not every stranger, but depending on my mood, i’ll often smile, nod, and maybe say “hi” or “how’s it going”. i’ve always figured that was being friendly or polite. granted, a lot of what is in the video is far from that and definitely unacceptable. but the idea that you should have tunnel vision and never speak to or look at anyone else is rather depressing, isn’t it?
ETA: i don’t think i do it any more often to men than women, for what it’s worth.
Belafon
@the Conster: Well, that throws out a good chunk of romance stories. Forget asking about kites: http://xkcd.com/268/.
greennotGreen
@Betty Cracker: This is true for me as well. But black men often still say hello.
CONGRATULATIONS!
That’s a fucking excuse and a piss-poor weak one at that. The conduct of every man in this video is beyond unacceptable, I don’t give two shits what color they are. They’re horrible people and their parents ought to be ashamed.
skerry
In French with English subtitles. Worth 10 minutes of your time.
the Conster
@KG:
Let me guess – you’re a guy. I’m sure you’re very nice, but, that’s just not what we’re talking about here is it? Let’s not pretend it is, because that’s really the fucking problem – the whole aww c’mon, “he was just being friendly” bullshit.
brent
@rk:
It is certainly not in any way unusual for strangers to greet other strangers in a generic way. That certainly happens to me (black male) when I walk around. However, I can’t speak to the context of either the video or how a woman might feel about those same sorts of greetings. What I can say is that many women have told me that they don’t respond to even the most innocuous greeting anymore because they have learned from frequent experience that any acknowledgement can often end with an unwanted confrontation.
Violet
I saw this on the Today Show yesterday. Hoda Kotb said something about how if she didn’t get catcalls from construction workers then she looks around to see if her clothes aren’t up to par. Seriously. Then she and the other woman agreed it wasn’t a problem to get catcalls from construction workers. And then went off on a tangent of, “Do guys really think this works?” WTF? It’s not about it “working.” It’s about dominance and control. Those women are either stupid or willfully ignoring the issue.
Betty Cracker
@greennotGreen: There are cultural and contextual issues at play also, no doubt. I live in a small town, and it’s customary to make eye contact and say hello to passersby.
rk
@NonyNony:
I used to take a bus to school and every day this guy would come and sit next to me and just kept flirting even after I told him that I was married. This went on for weeks. Finally I just started taking a different bus. A friend of mine took the train to work every day. She had long black hair. One day she cut it and as she got off the train, a guy (who she had not noticed earlier) came up to her, very upset and said “why did you cut your hair, it used to look so beautiful”. She completely freaked out and stopped taking the train. Her husband started driving her to work after that. This may sound trivial, but these behaviors really have negative impact on women.
Pen
Is this sort of abrasive “mind your own fucking business” attitude common in big cities? Because, if so, remind me never to visit. Where I’m from engaging people in public, either through simple greetings or active conversation, is completely expected and you’re considered rude if you don’t act in a friendly manner towards those you’re in proximity to or otherwise interacting with.
That doesn’t change the fact that many of the men in this video are acting like jerks and pigs, but based on what I saw I would put some of those who are accused of being sexist as simply being sociable.
the Conster
@Violet:
Paid very well to do both.
the Conster
@Pen:
Let me guess – you’re a guy?
Another Holocene Human
@rk: Wow, what a pathetic excuse. Without an exception, the fratty douchebros in cars who have harassed my wife in Gainesville, Fl when she was walking down the sidewalk (they scream stupid shit out of the windows, even scarier, sometimes they slow down) have been white.
She’s been harassed by all races in various contexts but the older white men overall were the scariest (most entitled).
Everybody knows that Gator douchebros scream shit out of cars, especially in the evening hours. And they are white. (Most of their frats have one black member. Oh, and the cook is black. Diversity!)
Another Holocene Human
@rk: Do they holler at random men they don’t know walking down the street.
Eyyyy! You talkin to ME? What, you wanna make sumthin uvvit?
The answer is no.
ETA: Correction, sometimesin groups they will stalk and attack visibly gay men.
Gravenstone
@samiam: Derfs gotta derp. How long before you have to come up with yet another nym, you stalking little fuckwit?
Geeno
@Violet: The latter, definitely the latter.
Southern Beale
My husband, who is as much a liberal feminist as I, actually said he didn’t think catcalling and on-street harassment was that much of a problem in the South. Because .. Southern gentlemen or something?
Sigh.
The good news, ladies, is that the catcalling and on-street harassment stops once you hit 40. At least, it did for me and every other one of my contemporaries.
slag
@Starfish: OK. I LOLed.
It’s interesting that this issue is actually being publicly addressed, given how long it’s been around. I hope, like MADD and other successful public awareness campaigns, things will actually change for the better on this front.
Another reason I still watch TDS regularly is that Jessica Williams is helping to fight these prevalent-yet-unpublicized problems.
scav
thththththt ok here goes Heavy sigh. Oh you people. Don’t you know that boys will be boys and just scatter the complements about themselves gratuitously like piss at a urinal? It’s not like they’re capable of learning other behaviors, let alone actually wondering if the complements are even complementary or welcome. They just let fly and need at least to be complemented lavishly for not just peeing against a generic random wall.
KG
@the Conster: as i said in my comment, most of what’s on that video is way over the line of acceptable. the five minute silent walk is wrong, the guy walking along asking questions when she’s clearly ignoring him is wrong, the “babe” “honey” and “thousand dollars” comments are wrong. so are the “smile” comments.
but again, there were questions of how often guys say hi or acknowledge random strangers on the street. i offered my own experience in hopes of furthering the conversation and offering perspective.
raven
@KG: Ever come across one of those threads that it just makes sense to not participate in?
Southern Beale
BTW, y’all remember the old Saturday Night Live cast (Jane Curtain, Gilda Radnor era) where the women construction workers harassed male passersby the same way men harass women? It was hilarious. Haven’t been able to find it on YouTube.
rk
@Another Holocene Human:
I was once walking down the street and a bunch of young men in a car speeded up and drove it straight towards me, then swerved at the last second all the while screaming and laughing. I have enough material to write a book on this subject.
KG
@raven: yeah, lately it seems to be about 75% of the threads here.
Pee Cee
@Pen:
As a person from a part of the South where greeting strangers on the street is expected behavior, I watched the video – and I didn’t really see anything there that looked like just “being sociable”. And that’s in the context of where I live – not in a large city where greeting strangers on the street isn’t the norm.
Another Holocene Human
@greennotGreen: Saying hi and nodding when you pass each other on the sidewalk is different from hanging out on a street corner with your buds and catcalling people. I live in the South and frankly, the cops don’t tolerate too much streetcorner hangin’ anyway (gotta love the land of “democracy”) and my unscientific survey sez men tend to be more aggressive with women they perceive to be of the same race, though white men overall tend to be the worst in public (entitled, raging, out of control).
Also, too, chatting up a stranger on the bus* is different from walking onto the bus drunk and getting up in the bus driver’s physical space with whatever bullshit you have going on. White frat dudes have done the female and male bus drivers that way. Let me tell you something, if you are driving a bus and somebody gets in your face that is some scary territory right there.
*-including being a douchebag while doing it … there are some jerks, they are always male somehow, who will start some stupid convo, either begging for a date, some ideological religious shit, or negging young people, esp women, and refuse to stop after multiple people tell them they don’t want to talk to them any more. but i’ve found they’re always cowards if the bus driver says something, even the one who screamed he wanted a supervisor ran off the back door when the supervisor arrived
Pen
@the Conster: No, I’m not. Though it’s nice of you to completely ignore everything about my comment regarding differing social norms of interaction.
Another Holocene Human
@Betty Cracker: Uh-oh Betty, some GG’er MRA’s rageboner just died a little inside.
You’re supposed to be experiencing existential despair when the menz fail to “validate” you on the street.
slag
@KG: You’d seriously be doing women a favor if you essentially ignored any of them that you didn’t know. That tiny constraint may give you a sad, but just think of it like saving those special smiles for your secret moments.
rk
@Southern Beale:
You’re right. I thought maybe things had become better. But then my daughter entered her teens. Now I want to go after these guys with a baseball bat.
Another Holocene Human
@greennotGreen: You greet people you fucking know. It’s not a fucking conspiracy.
There were a couple of times I randomly ran into somebody I knew (relative, friend, ex-girlfriend’s landlord’s son–really!) on the streets of Boston and there was hollering, gathering, and a big hug but that doesn’t mean that’s normal street behavior between strangers.
OMG, some people who live and grew up in the same neighborhood know each other on sight? Unpossible!
Another Holocene Human
@Belafon: Oh, lord, do we really need to go through that weaksauce, “not being allowed to catcall, harass, and stalk women on public transit means that romance is dead, nobody will ever get a date again and the human race will die out” here?
Ugh.
Southern Beale
@rk:
It could be worse. I went to Italy with some girlfriends when I was in my early 20s and we were a) molested and grabbed by men on public transit (literally, like a strange guy dry-humping your ass on the bus); chased through the streets of Rome by 6 guys in a van screaming at us in Italian; routinely harassed and accosted whenever we left the hotel. It was the worst experience of my life, I swore I’d never go back to Italy and I didn’t for about 20 years.
I don’t know of the Italian men got better or it was just me getting older but when I finally went back I was treated like an actual human, not a walking vagina and tits.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: Yes, but saying hello and making eye contact is entirely a different thing from what is being demonstrated in the video.
I think that anonymity probably makes more of this sort of thing. In Manhattan, where there are what 4 or so million people jammed together during a work day, it’s unlikely that people you walk by on the street are nodding acquaintances. In a small town, its very possible that they know your name, which totally changes the dynamic at work here.
the Conster
@Pen:
It’s perfectly easy to live in a city and go through every day not being inappropriately familiar with strangers on the street, and that’s not being “abrasively mind your own fucking business”. I do it every day. I hold doors open for people, and smile and say thank you when it’s done for me. I make room on the train for strangers to sit. I comment appropriately to people I don’t know when we’re sharing a common experience. It’s not abrasive, it’s appropriate. You should give it a whirl.
Southern Beale
Oh hell, I had Hispanic guys come on to me when I was on the damn FREEWAY as a passenger in the car and my MOTHER was driving. I was 15. Like, what, am I going to tell her to pull over so I can give you a blow job or something? No of course not. There’s a completely different dynamic here, it’s a way of asserting dominance, affirming control or something. The human male version of peeing on a fire hydrant.
Sorta like how my pit bull humps his bed.
Another Holocene Human
@Violet: Catcalling from construction workers is like a joke. They don’t do it as much as they used to* and these days, they’re usually behind 6ft or higher mostly-opaque fencing so yeah, tell me about all the beefy, lower class, bit of rough construction workers in your fantasies, you obnoxious upper class twit.
*-when they were doing a lot of it, it was a way to put women in their place, oh sure you have a white collar job and a college degree and I’m a hit-on-my-head as a baby IQ at room temperature violent dipshit who gets through my day anaesthetized on Miller Lite, but I can make you feel as small and scared as my infant children when I’m on a bender … hahaha, I made you scared, chicks are so funny when they’re terrified of you
Another Holocene Human
@Pen: Stay home, ya bag of dicks.
Yes, you should mind your own business, but your loss–last time I visited NY metro area people were very nice, including on public transit. But I’m also not a fucking moron babe in the woods, TYVM.
Don’t start none, won’t be none. Words to live by.
slag
@Villago Delenda Est: Many men perceive making eye contact to be an invitation to further interaction. Many women will not make eye contact for that reason.
Another Holocene Human
@Gravenstone: It’s pathetic derp because it got pantsed last night and apparently thinks nobody will remember that its derpitude is confused about which country just ended military operations in which country.
Plantsmantx
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
It’s not an “excuse”. This is akin to making black people the face of illegal drug abuse, or any number of other “social pathologies”. Apparently, the people who did the video didn’t set out to do that, but it has that effect. If I point that out, I’m not making excuses for anything.
the Conster
@slag:
Yup. Dark sunglasses and ear buds are a woman’s best friends.
Southern Beale
Why are there two comment boxes on this thread? I’m confused.
Another Holocene Human
@Southern Beale: I dunno, a complete stranger walked up to my face in a Tennessee city all but wanting to start a fight over my baseball cap.
Now I’m not saying the same thing couldn’t have happened in Boston … I once was about to go out wearing team colors for a team the Red Sox were playing that day, but one of my friends stopped me. (They were my old intramural duds and I didn’t have money for new clothing, especially not money to replace it all with licensed Red Sox gear … but it was pretty dumb, an Aspie moment, I guess.) But let’s not pretend Tennesseans don’t have their, er, moments.
Betty Cracker
@Villago Delenda Est: Well, yeah, which is why I mentioned the cultural and contextual thing…
Another Holocene Human
@slag:
Jessica Williams was like the only reason to watch the Daily Show for a while there, but Samatha Bee is on more frequently again and they’ve been hiring (but not always retaining) some good new talent since she came on. Of course there is Larry Wilcox but he’s not on every night.
AnonPhenom
@Another Holocene Human:
Come’on baby, you know you love it!
Another Holocene Human
@scav: They know it’s unwelcome. It’s a dominance behavior, you can tell by how they ALWAYS react when ignored or shut down.
J.D. Rhoades
@rk:
It’s not at all uncommon where I live for men to greet one another on the street with “mornin'”, “how’s it going?” etc. But then, I live in a small Southern town where women with whom I’m barely acquainted call me “sweetie,” “shug,” and the occasional “baby” (the last mostly from women of color).
Xantar
@Southern Beale:
Italian men have not gotten better. I am a man, but many of my female friends have had the same experiences as you when traveling over there.
One of them was in a dance club when she realized there were a lot of men taking an interest in her. As it happened, she was wearing a plaster cast on her arm at the time. So she started incorporating it into her dance moves and “accidentally” whacked a couple of them in the family jewels.
g
Excluding the really vile and overtly sexual, there’s a pretty simple rubric to distinguishing between a catcall and a social nicety.
A social nicety is delivered face to face with eye contact. A catcall is delivered to your ass.
Another Holocene Human
@Southern Beale: It’s not any better. :(
I screamed at some guy who wouldn’t stop staring at my wife on a train but since he didn’t speak English and I don’t speak Italian it was a waste of energy. The buses are very crowded and the cobblestones are very painful on the feet, so creepy bus dryhumpers? Check. This was Rome. No problems in Trieste.
I didn’t take Roman subway b/c Romans don’t but since it is chockfull of American tourists it is possible than more American social norms apply down there–?
J.D. Rhoades
@Betty Cracker:
Yup. Me, too. OTOH, if some dude started walking next to me in my personal space for five minutes without speaking (as happened in the video), I might have to stop and say “excuse me, friend, can I help you with something?” And the actual words notwithstanding, it would not be in a friendly manner.
There were a few call outs in that video that seemed pretty innocuous and commonplace to this Southern man, but there was also a lot of stuff that was way creepy.
beltane
I grew up in NYC and it’s just not the type of place where strangers pass each other on the street, smile, and say “hi”. When I was in middle school and started to get boobs the catcalls started even though I did my best to “cover up” and look inconspicuous. The worst was dealing with men in cars who’d follow me and my friends for blocks hoping we’d turn tricks for them even though we most definitely did not dress like hookers. Maybe to some men, all women and girls are hookers, and even if we all wore hijabs it wouldn’t change a thing. It’s news to me that some women are OK with this kind of thing. I guess that for some women, any kind of attention is better than no attention at all.
It’s not a race thing. Living in lily-white Vermont I’ve encountered lots of men who don’t respect boundaries and this lack of boundaries often comes with a hint of menace. There is a big difference between a quick nod and friendly “good day” and being called a babe by a complete stranger. Many, if not most, sexual assaults begin with words and since there’s no way of knowing if a man is just being rude rather than being a potential threat, I don’t really consider this type of unwanted attention to be benign.
Another Holocene Human
@slag: A lesbian wrote a book where she was made up to pass as a man and entered into all kinds of male spaces, such as a monastery, did the Glen Garry Glen Ross thing, etc. The first chapter was about walking down the street, making eye contact and seeing men look away instead of staring her down as they always had in the past.
J.D. Rhoades
@g:
Words to live by.
Another Holocene Human
@Plantsmantx: Hollaback is based in New York City. The racial mix of the men in the video by chance matches that of New York City.
Instead of concern trolling, why not make one for Salt Lake City, UT or, heh heh, pick any Southeastern historically white state college college town on a Friday or Saturday night. Be preparing for some scary video.
SatanicPanic
@Pen: I say hi to random people and I’m not a very outgoing and/or friendly person, but it’s usually a matter of the fact that I’m walking down the sidewalk slowly approaching someone (that I’ve usually seen before) and it feels weird not to acknowledge their presence. Like I see the same guy handing out religious pamphlets every day, and the same old lady walking her dog, I’m not going to pretend I’ve never seen them before.
This is, however, different from catcalling, which I don’t do.
Another Holocene Human
@Southern Beale: FYWP.
Pen
@Another Holocene Human: that sounds like an interesting book. You wouldn’t happen to remember the name or author would you?
Southern Beale
@Xantar and @Another Holocene Human:
Well, that’s disappointing. I remember being on an escalator with one of my friends after a week in Italy and getting approached by a young guy and we just looked at each other and read each others’ thoughts perfectly. We were both just so very tired of the constant, never-ending-ness of it all. It wasn’t like everyone was rude even, some of the guys were nice but you literally could not go out the door without a pack of men sniffing around you like dogs in heat. It was like, Jesus fuck can we not get 10 minutes of peace?
So we both, without saying a word to each other, pretended to be deaf. My friend and I started speaking fake sign language to each other. We just couldn’t muster the energy to tell the guy to go away. It was THAT bad.
scav
@Another Holocene Human: Oh I know that, I actually had an uncle that would actually pee against interior hallway walls in his own house on football days. His entire being seems dedicated to proving he’s the alpha male of the family, so marking territory either with piss or words is bog standard obvious and dull behavior of the breed. I just always enjoyed the tacit frisson of the “they can’t learn” under the boys will be boys line of defense.
gene108
@NonyNony:
I think the reason men do not do this to other men is because somewhere in the back of every guys mind is the thought that if I piss the dude on the street off, will he be able to punch me in the face.
We all size up, who we think we can take in a fight, but you never know if the little dude has a hulking big brother or friend, who would have his back and punch you in the face after you beat the little dude up.
Southern Beale
@Another Holocene Human:
Sorry about the FYWP
beltane
@Another Holocene Human: In my experience, the subset of Americans commonly known as “rednecks” are the worst when it comes to this kind of thing. However, since very few of these people live in NYC, they didn’t appear in the vidoe.
Another Holocene Human
@AnonPhenom: Well, I remember Camille Paglia making defenses for street harassment in the 1990s because it provided opportunities for spicy
LatinaItalian firecrackers to go off like Lindy in Car Wash. (Thus proving their superior grounded earthy authenticity to brittle WASP chicks. One senses a pattern here.)Another Holocene Human
@Xantar: My late grandmother had to fight off some French dudes when she was a student eons ago (I believe dinosaurs roamed the Earth). And by “fight off” I mean she socked the ringleader in the stomach and ran.
Southern Beale
@Another Holocene Human:
Trust me, I set the husband straight on that right quick. I never had more weird encounters than I did after I moved to Nashville. Guys masturbating in front of me. One guy tried to block me in an alley while I walked the dog. Jogging around Radnor Lake (a very busy state park in Nashville, I used to live next to it) a guy tried on 3 successive occasions to flash me — jumped out of his car and waved his naked body at me. I mean, people down here are wired to the cray-cray. All that Southern Baptist sexual repression, it leaks out in weird ways.
I reminded the husband of that and he said, “well those people have a fetish.” I’m not so sure that catcalling and street harassment isn’t the same animal. Again: dominance behavior. Look what I can do. What are you gonna do about it?
Another Holocene Human
@Pen: Norah Vincent, Self-Made Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norah_Vincent
the Conster
@gene108:
Exactly. It’s intimidation pure and simple, and men get away with it because women can’t, won’t, and don’t have the strength, energy or disposition to fight back. It’s infuriating, exhausting and all around fucking bullshit we’re all just fucking tired of, at every age. Any attempt to excuse, dismiss, diminish, account for or explain this behavior in any other terms makes me want to punch every guy, nice or not in the fucking neck UNTIL THEY GET IT.
Another Holocene Human
@scav: If you can house-break a puppy…
Plantsmantx
@Another Holocene Human:
Yes, I understand that. I also understand that they edited out a significant number of catcalling white men because they weren’t loud enough…or something.
I ran across a black man and white woman on Twitter, both liberals, who agreed with each other’s opinion that the “convo” was being shut down by people who were irritated because once again, it seemed as if black people were being made into the face of a social ill. In their minds, if the “convo” can’t be based on the premise that black men are the real problem without someone interrupting to say “hey, wait a minute”, then all is lost.
Betty Cracker
@J.D. Rhoades: I thought virtually all of the encounters on the video were creepy. A couple struck me as borderline — something that wouldn’t be untoward in a different environment — but given the context, I can see why the video makers included them.
skerry
I was walking on a Manhattan sidewalk with my brother and a man made a remark about my ass. After my brother said something to the effect of, “hey, that’s my sister”, the man apologized TO MY BROTHER.
Another Holocene Human
@beltane: Soi-disant rednecks are also known to go roaming the streets hunting homeless people and chasing them off the road or sometimes, actually hit’n’run (almost never prosecuted). I’ve talked to survivors in my own town. Bunch of assholes in a trunk screaming “Kill the hobo!”
They’ll never get in trouble for it because the Law hassles the fuck out of the visible homeless too. Nothing’s too illegal if the victim is an “undesirable”.
But NYC can’t feel too good about themselves because pedestrian deaths are high and prosecutions non-existent. NYC under Bloomberg wouldn’t even report vehicular homicides as homicides. Thought NYC had a freaky low homicide rate? Well, funny story, other jurisdictions report vehicular homicides to the feds and they don’t. Whether drunk, negligent, speeding, incompetent, overly aggressive. They. Don’t. Care. You’re a pedestrian? Peasant. Fuck you. (See Streetblogs for great, but depressing, reporting on this.)
gene108
@slag:
What’s the punishment?
MADD works because they got state governments to make DUI a serious fucking infraction of the law, like go to jail for a few months serious.
Awareness was raised, but the downside risk to drunk driving is high enough that even people, who will not be otherwise persuaded have to pay attention and yet we still have drunk driving.
I’m not sure how you got about changing people’s attitudes towards gender and the resulting status and I do not know how you enforce anti-catcalling laws or even get enough evidence to charge someone, with a crime. The catcaller / catcallee interaction is relatively short.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Flip the scene. You’re a guy and you walk up to some strange guy walking down the street looking pissed off, and tail him for a while, maybe say “how bout a smile” or any of the totally inappropriate shit said on this video. How do you think that interaction will go?
I give you one try, maybe two, tops, before you’re in need of massive dental reconstruction. If you’re lucky.
So why is it OK to do it to women but not to men?
Real simple. Women don’t dare hit you for being a totally out-of-control douchebag.
Another Holocene Human
@Southern Beale: Some flashers are very aggressive and violent men, like the one who was stroking on the back of the bus (empty bus, dark lonely road, female driver) and when the cops ID’d him, it turned out he was just out of state prison (where they masturbate in front of female guards to rattle them).
But other public ‘baters are very cowardly. So women can sometimes stop them with immediate, loud calling out of the behavior (and ridicule can work, too). A couple of coworkers have told me they shut down a flasher by telling the man, dozens-style, how small “it” looked.
scav
@Another Holocene Human: Alas! the aunt in question was far too well brought up herself to administer the proper rubbing his nose in his own shit — possibly also much too physically slight to get away with it. Everyone eventually just found a better puppy and didn’t look too hard when he left in a snit. Didn’t even check to see if he’d made it to a no-kill shelter.
kc
@greennotGreen: @greennotGreen:
Did you even watch it? Do you really think a man walking down the street is going to get a bunch of men aggressively addressing him?
beltane
@Another Holocene Human: The thing is, how do you know in advance if you’re dealing with a violent or non-violent flasher?
Another Holocene Human
@Plantsmantx: Cool story, bro. You obviously did not read the blog post on Gothamist describing the racial mix, how the video was edited, and why the total screen time is distorted (hint: it’s the two creepy aggressive stalker guys).
I don’t see any women demanding video TR00F! because apparently it’s hitting all too fucking close to home. So I am going to make some educated guesses about who you are.
Another Holocene Human
@Betty Cracker: That “smile” “smile” shit goes on relentlessly in the Northeast. No. Fuck you.
It is bullying.
AnonPhenom
@Another Holocene Human:
If white guys were subjected to this type of attention it would likely look like this.
Southern Beale
@skerry:
Wow. Well, that’s about typical.
Not in the sexual harassment realm but once I’m walking the dogs with my husband and this asshole goes zooming up our street exceeding the speed limit and I yelled “SLOW THE FUCK DOWN” as I’m known to do and the guy slams on his breaks and tells MY HUSBAND to “control your wife!”
Wake up and smell the patriarchy, folks.
kc
@greennotGreen:
It’s been MY experience as a woman living in the South that if I meet a man’s eye in passing he may nod or speak and I will nod or speak in return. “Good afternoon,” “how you doing,” something like that. That’s not bothersome, to me, that’s just being polite. That’s not what was happening in that video. Those guys were aggressively addressing her and soliciting her attention.
Another Holocene Human
@gene108: You have to start by educating people at a much younger age.
Just as they educate school kids about not hitting your intimate partners.
It can be taught, and it can reach those who are being taught all the wrong stuff at home. I’m proof of that.
SatanicPanic
@gene108: public service campaigns? make movies with them as the butt of jokes?
Another Holocene Human
@CONGRATULATIONS!: DING DING DING
-Hey, why won’t you SMILE.
-Hey, why don’t I rearrange your face. The FUCK you just said to me. The FUCK are you. No, I’m talking to YOU. The FUCK. You want me to talk to you? No? You want me to? No, I’m in YOUR face. Fucking smile. FUCK you. You’re lucky I have somewhere to be.
best case scenario
Southern Beale
Since we are talking about this, I never pass up the opportunity to tell people who are moms, dads, brothers, sisters, etc. about Gavin DeBecker’s excellent book “The Gift Of Fear.”
A guy friend told me he gave each of his four daughters a copy. I can’t recommend it enough because one message the culture sends women is that if you’re creeped out by a man’s behavior, it’s “all in your head,” or that guy who’s stalking you is really just being “romantic,” etc. That book is all about saying, “trust your instincts.” A very important message.
Another Holocene Human
@beltane: I don’t know if you always do, but there is context, daytime, public place, people milling around seems to be the masochists with a dumb fetish and no impulse control, but night-time, sparsely populated, aggressive eye contact … I’d be pissing my pants.
kc
Sort of on topic, the first time I went to Manhattan, years ago, I walked all over the place and no one bothered me at all. Went from there to Europe and experience a lifetime’s worth of street harassment in major European cities.
slag
@gene108: That’s true that there are few meaningful enforcement mechanisms for this issue, but social enforcement is an actual thing that does have an impact. This behavior typically has yet to be seen as uncool. Maybe accentuating its uncoolness will help alleviate it.
Another Holocene Human
@AnonPhenom: That was quick.
beltane
@Another Holocene Human: All of them creep me out, though. I wouldn’t want to engage with a non-violent one to the point where he might recognize me at a later time in another place. Just writing this comment made me realize that the occasional desire to be invisible is part of my experience of being a woman.
gene108
@Another Holocene Human:
You can educate people up to a point.
But unless there is a tariff on the behavior you will not discourage people in the same way drunk driving has been handled or even cigarette smoking.
With cigarettes, the cost has been jacked up, along with actually enforcing age requirements, so it is harder for people to get hooked.
When I moved to NC, back in 1984, there was some age restriction on cigarette purchases, but I remember a teacher saying you could get cigarettes, if you had a note from your mom or dad. I was in the fifth grade. Students could also smoke in designated areas in high schools, IIRC.
All I’m trying to say is the people you will reach by a PR campaign alone are probably the people, who are not catcalling now. The folks, who think it is no big deal usually need some kind of stick to make them scared enough to change their behavior.
@SatanicPanic:
I think schools are a place, where this sort of thing can be cracked down upon. It dovetails well into the anti-bullying campaign that has been going on recently.
Suzanne
As a girl architect, you can imagine what this is like when it happens in the context of my job. I have specific clothes I wear when I have to go on a jobsite. And I’ve learned a lot of very colorful Spanish.
skerry
@kc: I’ve been harassed/cat-called at multiple levels, from “smile” to having my breasts grabbed. Happened on multiple continents over multiple decades. Had more of a problem in Australia than Italy. I’ve seen the ‘baters and the guys with the creepy smiles. In small towns and major metropolitan cities, north/south/east/west. It was everywhere and all the time, day/night, alone/in a group. White, black, asian, whatever. Male.
When my daughter moved to NYC, I told her never to look anyone in the eye on the street or on the subway. And never respond. It either encourages the guy or makes him angry.
Men allow it and even encourage each other. It is a dominance and power thing. Part of rape culture.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Another Holocene Human: Really is, too. About 80% of the men I know would respond to behavior like that with a fist right to the face first. The other 20% would respond in the far nicer way you hypothesized.
It’s simply bullying, nothing else, and the only way to stop it (short term) is by being big and aggressive enough to make the behavior a serious physical risk for the offender.
The long term method is by making the behavior understood as something only abject losers indulge in, but we’re so far away from that.
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Southern Beale: I think DeBecker is wrong and/or overly dramatic about a number of things, but the book is worth reading in spite of its many flaws. Two important points of total truth he raises are:
1. If it feels bad it very likely is. Get the fuck out. And refer to #2 below:
2. Best course of action, if you need help, is to run to a total stranger (preferably a woman), rather than the person who’s offering to help. That’s what got Hannah Graham killed, she went to the guy who’d been following her around for hours.
I avoided being stabbed in San Francisco by about six inches because of number one. Guy came towards me and it was wrong. Jumped to the side and put my bike between me and him right as the blade came through the air where I’d just been standing. He looked offended and asked “what’s your problem, dude?”. I left the scene as fast as I could ride.
Suzanne
I remember once when I was designing a project at an airport, and I was down on the ramp level (tarmac) with some contractors and engineers. I was the only woman. We all went inside , and we were looking at some structure, and in order to look, I had to turn around, and have my ass facing a room full of guys who work on the ramp. The dudes who wave the flashlights directing the planes into the gates. The moment I turned around, the pitch of the room changed. One of the contractors leaned over to me and said, “Wow, and here I thought contractors were bad!”
I’ve seen so much street exposure and masturbation and been harassed so many times on public transport. I’ve been chased down the street by a dude with a knife. I AM SO OVER IT. Just go have sex with something, anything, and leave us alone.
Southern Beale
@skerry:
You reminded me of a special form of harassment that happened to us “girls” in junior high (I think I was 13 or so …?) It was a “game” the guys played called “tit squish” where they’d run past a female and grab their (still developing so OW OW OW FUCKING OW) breasts. And then yell “tit squish!”
ha ha so funny.
This shit starts young, folks.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
But if they’re people you see every day or every couple of days, they’re not really random people anymore. I’m guessing that none of these guys had actually seen this woman before, so they don’t have the excuse of her being a familiar person.
Southern Beale
@CONGRATULATIONS!:
Jesus, yes. If it feels wrong, it probably is. No, you aren’t crazy or being overly “emotional.” And if you are, so the fuck what.
Davebo
@the Conster:
I certainly address just about everyone I pass on the street with something similar to “How’s it going?”.
I’m male. But I do the same with males or females. If someone saying “How are you doing” is causing you discomfort you should probably seek some counseling.
Another Holocene Human
@CONGRATULATIONS!: In my profession you can lose your job for picking a fight even off the job, which isn’t to say that some of my coworkers haven’t self-righteously picked one, damn the consequences anyway while off the job.
To be honest I feel like in the South when people go off they go off and violence quickly follows (you can hear the emotion in the vocal timbre) but in the Northeast sometimes the screaming and chest-beating gives the participants time to cool down and then you get all the “I would totally kick your ass if not for $excuse” statements and attempts to back down while saving face (“hold me back” is another favorite).
But, hey, your back of the hand guess may even be right because how often do men try each other not sloshed in a the back of a dive bar looking for a fight (or at a hockey game, sloshed and looking for a fight)?
Suzanne
You know, the street harassment apologists here are sounding like the white people who protest, “No, my use of (insert offensive word here) isn’t racist! That term means (insert ductionary definition devoid of context)! YOU’RE JUST TOO SENSITIVE!”.
Look. Women in large numbers are telling you that this makes them uncomfortable and fearful, and that they live their lives less fully because of it. SO JUST STOP. Even if you have the purest of intentions, it isn’t being received that way. So STFU.
Richard Fox
In the 80’s I was a small gay guy in my twenties, in New York, stood at 5’4 in my shoes, and at the time considered “cute.” Getting cat calls is no fun, getting pinched on the rear-end even worse. And that happened more times than I care to remember. Just on the street, in mid town Manhattan more often than not, not even in what would be thought of as gay neighborhoods. So women are quite right from my perspective to not want that kind of uninvited attention. It is degrading, and exhausting. Period.
Davebo
@Suzanne:
Seriously? I’m rude for saying “how are you” as we pass on the street so I rate a STFU from you?
There is only one rude person in this dynamic and it isn’t me.
raven
So in the last 2 comments we have SHUT THE FUCK UP and PERIOD. So we may as well have another thread.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: Absolutely. I’m not making excuses for these dudes, I’m responding to Pen’s question about “mind your own business” being prevalent in cities.
Suzanne
@Davebo: I repeat: in large numbers, women are telling you that they are receiving your words differently than (you say) you intend. Why would you continue? Because if you are genuinely trying to show kindness, it’s fairly clear that you would find a different way to do so.
But I think you’re not really trying to extend friendliness and fellowship. I think you’re trying to dominate and intimidate.
the Conster
@Davebo:
Thanks for the mansplainin’. Asshole.
scav
@raven: Well, the needy whiney men that insist their peeing on the floor and whipping their dicks out are complements and blessings so accept them as inevitable bliss whether you want to or not do tend to have a lot of free bandwidth and crawl at most thread bottoms.
raven
@scav: say what
CONGRATULATIONS!
@Another Holocene Human: Before embarking on my current career, I spent about 15 years playing in various music venues throughout the Southwest. Everything from big rooms to small bars. I have seen every variety of bad behavior that both men and women indulge in. Especially fights. You gotta watch for those as you don’t want to get a mic stand kicked into your teeth. And you do it for long enough, playing the same tunes, and you stop paying a lot of attention to your playing (this hit me about nine months into it) and start watching people interact. And so I’m pretty good at seeing a fight coming long before anyone involved realizes it is, although I can’t hold a candle to any experienced bartender in that regard.
You can hit on a woman all night long, obnoxiously, and nothing will happen (and really, nothing will, you ain’t going home with her!). You get in a guys face for longer than a second or two and you are running the risk – not the inevitability, but certainly the risk – of getting your ass kicked. Every second ups those odds. Start running your mouth and it becomes a virtual guarantee that something’s going to happen you won’t like.
Again, if men felt they were taking the same risk in harassing women that they run in harassing men, it flat-out would not happen.
PROTIP: if you’re one of these losers who does this shit and you really need to get laid, try this instead; go to a decent bar, bring a book (a good one, not Cat In The Hat), get a drink that’s not Natty Ice or PBR and sit there and politely mind your own business, reading your book. Women will flock to you, and will always ask “what are you reading?” From there it’s on you, but if you have anything to offer chances are you will be taken up on that which you have to offer.
gelfling545
@greennotGreen: mostly, when I pass people on the street, i say good morning or similar. It’s what I was taught to do. Now, I’m an elderly female so it’s unlikely. Anybody feels threatened by my greeting. I feel “how are you” or similar (which is really not a request for information) is fine; personal remarks, though, no.
Mnemosyne
@Davebo:
Except that it’s not one person saying, “How are you doing?” that’s the problem. It’s that you’re the 50th guy that day to say that, or something similar, or something worse, and I just don’t have the goddamned energy to interact with every single one of you every single day.
WereBear
@Davebo: Here’s a quarter. Buy a clue.
chopper
@gelfling545:
Here in the south, everybody says hello or ‘good morning’ or ‘how are you’ or some such when you pass on the street. it’s fucking weird. If you don’t do it, people think you’re a bit of a prick.
Not at all like NYC, of course. That’s a big part of the difference. If some dude starts talking to a woman on the street in New York, there’s a much higher likelihood he has some other motive than merely saying hello to the people he sees.
Davebo
@Suzanne:
Because women in large numbers aren’t telling me that. They are saying “fine, how are you?” or something like that. And often they “Gasp!” smile!
Should I take obtuse offense when they initiate the same contact with me? Because I just don’t see that happening. And it happens every day. Now this isn’t New York and I’m not passing dozens of people per hour on the street but still.
Catcalling is a real problem. There are tons of examples of it in the video and they are beyond the pale. But there are other examples that are perfectly normal to anyone not in “full on outrage” mode.
We have real problems with sexual harassment in this country. Let’s not diminish the efforts to address them by griping about minutia.
Davebo
@WereBear:
Clever. Not.
And for the record, I’m not walking the streets of Tuscaloosa. I live downtown in a city with a population of 4 million.
SatanicPanic
here we go…
beltane
@chopper: In NYC, and most other large cities, people do not usually make eye contact with each other let alone engage in pleasantries. When living in a heavily congested area, maintaining person space is a psychological necessity. Even a little old lady who greeted all the hundreds of people she passed on her way to the supermarket would be regarded as being a little “off”. Anyway, when I’m walking alone down my quiet country road I don’t really enjoy being greeted by strange men in pickup trucks. Anything beyond a wave is mildly unpleasant.
Davebo
I must say, my late wife who was like the alpha feminist would be laughing her ass of at this if she were here! Then again she was probably 10 times more likely to offer a kind greeting to a stranger she passes on the street than I am.
beltane
Do all these friendly men who just like to say “hi” to people usually stop to greet big fat guys with plumber’s butt and ask them how their day is going?
raven
@chopper: We walk a couple of miles every morning at 6:30. It’s a fairly busy street and near a hospital. Almost everyone we encounter, black, white and otherwise says hi.
kc
@Davebo:
You didn’t watch that video, did you?
Suzanne
@Davebo: Okay, if you’re saying, “Hi, howyadoin?”, and you’re saying it to everyone, that’s a whole lot different than, “Heeeeyyyyy, how YOU doin….”, said (of course) only to women. Don’t be surprised if you’re misinterpreted on occasion, because I get lots more of the latter than the former. In short, though, remember: if it’s not about you, then it’s not about you.
But thanks for telling me what I should be worried about. I needed a dude to help me regain perspective.
Once again, women in large numbers are telling you something, right here on this very internet. It’s a tool for communication, not just a series of tubes anymore!
scav
mmm. assuming one’s reported personal experience is the universal norm and insisting everyone experiencing things differently are sick, insane or not to be believed. Very male, very white, very middle-class. quick pivot to claims of feminist ideals and claims of having a black/gay/feminist friend/wife. Very manipulative. I didn’t say clever. bottom of the thread. poor dear.
Plantsmantx
@Another Holocene Human:
I acknowledged the statement that the makers of the video issued.
Who am I? I’m a black man who doesn’t engage in street harassment of women. You know, like the majority of black men.
kc
I mean the very first thing you hear is when she walks past a bunch of guys sitting in chairs on the sidewall – she’s several feet away and one of them raises his voice and says “how you doin today?” When she doesn’t respond, he says “I guess not good.” At the same time some other guy is loudly saying “SMILE. SMILE.” The rest of the video is more of the same.
How anyone can watch that and think those guys, any of them, are just being polite is beyond me. It’s aggressive and demeaning.
Suzanne
@beltane: Or would those friendly guys who want to know how I’m doing STILL want to know if I told them first that I wouldn’t bang them if they were the last man on earth?
chopper
@beltane:
I know, the difference is nuts. I lived in NYC for 10 years. Everybody keeps their head down. Moving here was quite a shock that way.
kc
@beltane:
Yeah, really. Just trying to imagine a scenario where a guy is walking down the street and a bunch of random dudes are yelling, “Hey, how you doing” and getting pissed and making smart-ass remarks if he doesn’t respond. Or shouting, “SMILE! SMILE!” Or walking right beside him for several minutes, getting in his face.
greennotGreen
@kc: @kc: I did watch the whole film, and I agree that most of the men were completely inappropriate, as I said in my first comment. But if we apply too broad a brush, do we weaken our ability to solve the problem? Or perhaps because it’s hard to calibrate what’s pleasant and friendly against what’s domineering and threatening, and because it’s impossible to foresee how someone might take what was intended to be an innocuous greeting, do we say no idle words exchanged with strangers? Maybe it’s like this: Guys, if you don’t want someone else saying it to your mother, don’t say it to a random woman on the street.
the Conster
@gelfling545:
That’s nice. No woman, elderly or otherwise, is perceived as a threat in our society. They’re just not. That’s the difference that the men who just want to insist we’re being too sensitive, and misunderstanding those nice men that just want to say hello refuse to grok. It’s the same response over and over, refusing to acknowledge that just because their intentions are not rapey that it’s our fault for not being cool with them. Here’s a tip for Davebo and others – shut up and listen, because IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU AND WHAT YOU THINK.
WereBear
For example, let’s say we’re discussing a literal Greatest Hits where all the Funniest Home Videos of groin shots have been compiled.
Some people are saying how much they don’t like that happening, it ruins their day, and exchanging stories of awful times it happened to them.
Some people are belittling all the moaning and groaning, saying things like “I’ve been bumped in the groin and it’s no big deal” and “It’s only a whiffle bat, don’t make a fuss over nothing.”
Others opine that, yeah, that fastball would have hurt, it would hurt anyone no matter where it landed! But let’s not get carried away here, some of those things that happened didn’t even deserve to get into the movie, they were so insignificant.
If you were hurting from a remembered groin shot… how would you feel?
Davebo
@the Conster:
Thanks for the tip. And if by chance we happen upon each other on a sidewalk and I offer a pleasant greeting that offends you I want you to know I’m sorry.
Not for the greeting, but for what you must have experienced in the hours, weeks or months leading up to that moment that left you in a state of mind that caused that to offend you.
Why? Because it absolutely is about what I think, what I perceive and the way I choose to interact with other humans. And I certainly don’t require a reply and I wouldn’t think less of anyone who just continued on their way. It’s basic civility. And it’s not a bad thing.
For instance, screaming at someone in all caps to shut up, it’s not about you and what you think, doesn’t qualify as basic civility. Which is ironic when it comes from someone claiming to take offense at the totally benign actions of others.
But I honestly don’t expect you to understand that.
Suzanne
@WereBear: I have said that that show really should have been titled, “America Gets Hit In The Nuts”.
Suzanne
@Davebo: Oh, spare us the bullshit. The crap that we experienced in those “hours, weeks, and months” is called “patriarchy”. What you’re doing right here on this blog is upholding patriarchy by diminishing the concerns of women who are bring polite and kind enough to explain this to you. Over and over again. (Many of whom have been victims of violence, and who are telling you how this behavior perpetuates violence.) You COULD try to get over your butthurt and empathize, but that might interfere with your picking-up-chicks agenda.
the Conster
@Davebo:
You refuse to get it. Your refusal to acknowledge that ALL unsolicited comments from men are cause for suspicion, because of what ALL women are subjected to from the day they first step out on their own. Every man is a potential attacker. Do you not understand that? You need to. Every unsolicited comment from a strange man sets off a woman’s radar. I live alone in a big city environment, and you have to, as a woman, develop a finely tuned radar. Maybe you wouldn’t set it off, but your dismissiveness is one of those things that nice men do that makes me see red. Every catcall is an implicit threat – it’s a “this is what I can do to you in public on a street – imagine what I could do to you if we were alone in an elevator/alley/restroom/etc.” threat. It’s just what it is, thanks to your male culture that privileges you – the one you get to just float through every day without thinking twice about your friendly “hello”. So a hearty fuck you and to your cavalier attitude.
the Conster
@Suzanne:
I’d pay some serious watloos to watch that – over and over and over.
Suzanne
@the Conster: Exactly. Here is an example if thousands of women telling men how they are dominated, intimidated, and harassed, and how this is actively harmful and interferes with our freedom and our full engagement in society, and this clown is telling us that it’s not a big thing. I don’t really care if he means well, because he’s contributing to covering for men who do not mean well. If he cared about women in a genuine way, he’d take other dudes to task for being creeps.
You beat a dog enough times, it’ll cower, even when you go to stroke it softly. So fuck this dude. Or, more precisely, DON’T fuck this dude.
Davebo
@Suzanne:
Picking up chicks agenda? LOL! I’m a fifty year old widower who is engaged for christ sakes.
If what I’ve gotten here is your idea of polite then you are the problem, not me.
And Conster, it’s not that I don’t get it. It’s that I reject it.
It will come as a surprise to many but not all women are afraid of the elastic in their underwear. And I’m not going to change my habit of being courteous to those I encounter because you have decided you speak for ALL women because you don’t.
Hell I don’t know any women who would go on such a rant over a harmless greeting.
Mnemosyne
@Davebo:
Here’s the thing you don’t seem to get: just about every woman in the United States has experienced street harassment, from “Why don’t you smile?” all the way up to “Come suck this.” Every. One.
So you’re basically telling every woman in this country, Hey, I was just being friendly, lighten up and don’t be such a bitch! Which is, you know, what half the guys harassing the woman in the video are saying, too.
Suzanne
@Davebo: “Afraid of the elastic in their underwear”? When one third of us are or will be victims of sexual assault?
Christ, what an asshole.
the Conster
@Davebo:
Shorter: CLUELESSNESS- I HAZ IT!
EthylEster
@Betty Cracker wrote:
Yes. That’s exactly what I thought after I watched this. I particularly detested it when a man would say “Smile, honey” as happens to this woman early in the vid. This is how women’s lives differ daily from men. But I just don’t think most men get it.
Mnemosyne
@Davebo:
Again. The point is not that we get one or two harmless greetings in a day. It’s that we are bombarded with dozens of “harmless greetings” every single day to the point where all you can do is tune them out, because there isn’t enough time or energy in the day to socially interact with every guy who wants to demand our attention.
And you know, I’m no beauty queen. I’m in my mid-40s, and even in my prime there’s no way I could have competed with this woman. And yet I have total empathy for her, because I’ve experienced the exact same things.
WereBear
@Davebo: Dave. Bo. Let me make sure I spell it right.
Because I got a whiffle bat with your name on it.
Gravenstone
To add another layer to this whole mess, the actress who was featured in the video is now receiving rape threats for having the temerity to bring this forward in such a visible way. Large parts of our society are just fucking broken.
Mnemosyne
@EthylEster:
Hands down the most annoying “smile, it’s not so bad!” remark I got from a guy was when I was walking to my rental car to drive to the hospital to pick up my brother and sister-in-law about an hour after my father died.
I was so tempted to go off on that guy, but I was too numb at that point. If nothing else, it might have cured him of saying that so casually, though.
the Conster
@WereBear:
Whiffle bat? I’m thinking a clue by four.
Davebo
@WereBear:
Yes, cat bloggers strike fear in my heart almost as much as “Good Afternoon!” from a stranger!
Enjoy your evening ladies. If that’s not too offensive.
Mnemosyne
@Davebo:
Next up from Davebo, I don’t understand why all these young black guys get upset when I call them ‘boys.’ I’m just being nice!
the Conster
@the Conster:
With nails in it.
the Conster
@Mnemosyne:
Davebo just patted you on the head and told you to stop being so hysterical because your elastic in your panties are tight. What’s your problem?/
SatanicPanic
Lol Davebo, dude, maybe you are just being friendly, but some people will take that the wrong way. They already are. Just keep that in the back of your mind. Maybe your experience here shows you’re not judging peoples’ reactions as well as you think
the Conster
@Gravenstone:
I knew this would happen. It’s just so fucked up, but Davebo tells me we’re being oversensitive. He’s just friendly and confident in his rightness, so we’re all good and there’s nothing to see here, amirite?
Davebo
@Mnemosyne:
OK, I have to address this before I head out to stalk kittens tonight with my wicked smile.
I’m not telling every woman in this country anything. I’m not telling you to lighten up. I certainly didn’t call anyone a bitch.
Feel free to be as disturbed as you choose to be over my short anecdote. It’s certainly your right to do so.
Personally, I think that if someone passing you by, not stopping mind you but just passing by and saying “hello” is a major problem for you that is a statement about your state of mind. How you reached that state of mind could be totally understandable. Men can be pricks, hell men are often pricks. I get that. Women can be too as I’ve experienced here.
But saying “hello” isn’t a dickesh thing to have foistered on you in my opinion. But again, it’s just my opinion and you are certainly free to feel it’s somehow unkind, even rude for me or anyone else to do so.
So by all means, assume the worst of me. Project every negative experience you’ve ever had with a male on me if that makes you feel better.
To me it’s a sad way to go through life but whatever helps you through the day.
Suzanne
@SatanicPanic: Yanno, I honestly think some guys have deluded themselves into thinking women enjoy rando creepers talking to them. Same way they seem to think socks with sandals is the best idea EVAR.
scav
Davebo knows his insertion of his mighty sword is a sign of respect and love and a complement, so don’t everyone be getting your panties in a twist if the woman involved thinks otherwise and doesn’t just lie back and take it. I damn well hope his fiancée is a rhetorical trolling device.
Davebo
@Mnemosyne:
Seriously? You equate saying Hello to someone with calling a young black man a boy?
@SatanicPanic:
I don’t think so. I take them at their word that they find “hello” offensive or otherwise impolite, imposing or threatening.
I just think it’s silly. As you say, I may be a bad judge of people’s reactions but I’m pretty sure if we asked 1000 random women between the ages of say 20 and 50 if they took offense at a stranger saying hi to them on the street a huge chunk of them would reply “What on earth are you talking about??”
WereBear
@scav: Yeah. Because he’s patronizing. And pretends to not know that.
Suzanne
@Davebo: You can’t seem to grasp that there is a difference between a quick “Good evening” or a head nod you give to a neighbor as you cross paths while walking your dogs, and “Hey baby, how YOU doin’? Where you goin’? I’m just saying hello, now smile….”. One is friendly, the other is not. We’re not stupid. We know the difference. What you’re not grasping is that some of us would rather avoid Statement A if it cuts down on Statement B, because Statement B makes us a lot more afraid than Statement A makes us feel good.
scav
@WereBear: The automatic discounting of a woman’s — well anyone’s — interpretation of an interaction is a worrying symptom.
Mnemosyne
@Davebo:
But calling someone a “boy” is such an innocent thing to say. Anyone who would misconstrue it and point out the long history of black men being referred to as “boys” is just being overdefensive. It’s a sad way to go through life, isn’t it, getting all upset anytime someone uses a normal word like “boy” or just says “hello” to a woman walking down the street.
EthylEster
@brent wrote:
Yes!!! This is what I finally concluded. DO NOT MAKE EYE CONTACT! And notice that the woman in the video does NOT make eye contact. She is walking down the street, minding her own business.
If you DO make eye contact and nod (or smile) politely, in my experience some guy then tries to hit on you and, when you demur, says “Hey, bitch, why’d you come on to me?” IOW women often can’t win in this situation.
SatanicPanic
@Davebo:
Do you? Because you are on this thread mocking several women telling you exactly that.
OK, let’s say you’re right. “a huge chunk” is still leaving you with some people who are upset. I’m not even going to tell you to stop saying hi to people, I’m just saying that you should realize that some people might get upset, and it’s not nice to mock them for that. You are possibly upsetting some people, and that’s on you, not them.
Davebo
@Suzanne:
I can totally understand that. And though I can’t truly comprehend it I can imagine that the dick with ears behavior women experience with assholes on the street is much more than annoying. I can easily imagine it would be threatening and could cause not only discomfort but terror at times.
It sucks, and it should be, and often is pushed back against by both men and women who aren’t dicks with ears. I’ve certainly pushed back over such rudeness.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
And it’s a sliding scale. Ninety-nine percent of the time, if you haven’t had another upsetting encounter during the day, a casual nod and smile in passing is no big deal, as long as the guy doesn’t show any signs of slowing down or trying to follow you. But if you’ve had to run a gantlet that day with multiple guys harassing you, just that nod and smile can be the thing that sends you over the edge of, Why can’t you assholes leave me the fuck alone!?
ETA: Also, too — getting a nod and a smile from an old man is much less threatening than getting one from a young or middle-aged guy.
Davebo
@SatanicPanic:
Perhaps I am totally unaware. I didn’t feel I mocked anyone and I certainly didn’t intend to. I certainly didn’t tell anyone not to be a bitch or lighten up as so many have projected on me.
I damn sure didn’t tell anyone to STFU or threaten anyone with physical harm or, withholding sexual favors (that was a cute one).
The elastic in the underwear snark was over the top I’ll admit but by that point things had just gotten silly.
greennotGreen
@Suzanne: I think that’s part of the problem in this argument: where is the line between “Good evening” and “Hey, baby, how YOU doin’?” I heard, among all the catcalls in the film some “Good evening”s (obviously, not those exact words.) Apparently Davebo did, too. I don’t think that makes him a bad guy, and I don’t think that makes me not a feminist. Maybe it makes me a white woman who’s worked with a lot of black men; maybe it’s just a reflection of where I live. That being said, there are obviously a lot of women who are being made uncomfortable by something other people don’t find intimidating, and we – especially guys – should consider that. Just like racism: it’s not the intention, it’s the result.
EthylEster
@Southern Beale wrote:
And, not surprisingly, also a pee-nis.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: and you can tell- I mean, 90% of the young ladies I see walking down the street have their face buried in their IPhone. Or on hiking trails- they’ll be a party of 4 people and dad is like “hey, howdy!” to everyone that passes. The younger women, even in the same party, will just nod. What is to be gained by trying to bug them? Fuck I don’t like being bothered, I’m not going to go out of my way to get other peoples’ attention.
When I was teaching English in Japan some days I would be minding your own business on the subway or whatever and people, probably well meaning ones, would come up and try to make conversation. After a full day of conversation classes, the last thing you want is more conversation. It’s not scary (like I’m sure cat-calls can be), but sometimes it’s a drag, like- fuck, again? I just want to read this book! I can only imagine what women have to deal with.
schrodinger's cat
In India they call this charming practice eve-teasing, sounds so genteel, and it is anything but.
EthylEster
@greennotGreen wrote :
Concern troll alert!
the Conster
@EthylEster:
This is the reality for every woman who adopts the male cultural norm of beauty. Men have always set the standards for women then enforce them across the culture because (mostly white) men control all the levers. When a woman conforms to that western white standard of beauty, she’s valued on the street. That’s what those men are admiring – her success at being beautiful in accordance with the male standard, and they feel total unfettered freedom to comment on it to her, one after another. Race has nothing to do with THAT energy which is a dangerous energy for women. Jian Ghomeshi and his teddy bear? LOLWTF.
WereBear
I’m so glad this practice is being shown for the awful thing it is. When I was a teen and first started getting this kind of treatment, I was confused and puzzled and hurt over these demands to smile and pay attention to utter strangers.
I was treated like a video game; just press the buttons and get flattering female attention. Just because some guy wanted it. It had nothing to do with me as a person. It wasn’t friendly or neighborly or even polite.
It was forced flirting. Because they could. And I what I wanted or felt didn’t matter at all.
Why don’t you try it, Davebo? Why don’t you walk down the street and get pulled aside to tell every woman who goes by how much you like her hair, and how her dress fits her style, and tell her how her blouse matches her eyes… because if you don’t, she might pull out some brass knuckles and smack you. Just for starters.
You don’t know, see? You don’t know if any one of them are going to get ugly and mean and violent with you, right there on the street.
So you better be nice. All the time. All the way down the street.
Susan K of the tech support
Someone, upthread, lamented not being able to find a video of the SNL skit where women construction workers catcalled a man. “Hey Studmuffins! Want to make bouncy-bouncy?”
This isn’t the video, but it IS the transcript.
debit
Guys like Davebo obviously don’t understand that there are two ways a “hello” can go. One is where you say “hello” back, and that’s the end of it. The other way is that the guy then continues to engage. You look really nice. Where are you going? You meeting your boyfriend there? No? A beautiful lady like you has got to have a boyfriend. What are you doing later? Busy? Then why don’t you give me your number? Why not?
And then maybe it escalates. Maybe he starts following you. Maybe he starts shouting at you. Maybe he grabs you and tries to drag you into a car, an alley, a vacant lot.
The thing is, we don’t know which was it’s going to go. And if we decide not to risk it, and that hurts your little boo boo feelings, well that’s too bad. I’d rather have the elastic in my panties a bit too tight than ripped and bloody around my ankles.
I remember the first time I felt afraid around a guy. I was over at a friend’s house and we were going to go swimming in her pool. I was changing in the bathroom when there was a knock at the door. It was her her dad. “Hey, you’re taking a long time. Everything okay in there?” I couldn’t say it was taking so long because I felt self conscious, so I said something to the effect of, “I’m fine, be out in a minute.” He paused, then said, “No, I think you must need some help.” Then he tried to turn the doorknob, but I’d locked it. Then he rattled the door and tried to cajole me to unlock it and let him in. This went on for for what felt like hours, but was probably only 10 minutes.
I never went swimming. I pulled my clothes on over my suit and called my mom to pick me up. I didn’t tell her about it because I was sure I’d done something to make him behave that way. I was 12.
You go ahead and be offended when women chose to decide for themselves how to best feel safe, Davebo. I’ll continue to consider every man a potential threat until proven otherwise.
schrodinger's cat
@debit: Most men have no idea about the 24/7 vigilance women have to practice, everyday, day in and day out. It is exhausting.
chopper
@Davebo:
Well, Dave, I’m not going to join those calling for you to be beaten with a bat or something (seriously?), but I think the thing you’re missing is the actual, real experience of women.
Listen, being a nice person is laudable. You clearly have the intent, when you say hi or good morning to someone on the sidewalk, to be a nice guy and neighborly etc. Thing is, there is a large percentage of women in this country who have dealt with harassment or worse or far, far worse from strange men, to the point that many are paranoid or even scared of dealing with them, or at the very least tired of trying to hash out every situation in their head (is this guy for real, is he an asshole, do I need to run?). You may look in the mirror and think you’re not threatening at all, or that you wouldn’t mind at all if someone said ‘good morning’ to you, but that’s dude-think right there.
The thing that’s really gonna be mind blowing for you is, it’s our fault. Maybe not you and me personally, but men. We did this. Men, through being objectifying, harassing, violent, entitled assholes, have made it so that many women don’t even want it hear us say ‘hi’ anymore. Think on that for a bit.
That doesn’t mean that ‘hi’ is automatically harassment. But you have to realize the reasons why many won’t consider it welcome.
debit
@schrodinger’s cat: Yep. I wonder how many men have ridden a bus with earbuds in but no music playing, just so they could stay disengaged without offering offense and causing drama.
I will actually respond to a greeting when I’m on my bike; a greeting is considered polite and is to be expected. Plus, I can probably (hopefully) outride any potential jerks.
the Conster
@Davebo:
That comment is what is called a “tell”.
chopper
@debit:
This attitude, held by a great many women, is a seething indictment of the massive fuck-up that is male-dominated culture.
Suzanne
@Davebo: Stop getting hung up on people being mean to you. For serious. Women are talking in real terms about genuine harm and fear that they experience on a daily basis, and whether or not that makes you feel personally accommodated on this thread is not the issue at hand. It is also a patriarchal expectation that women be friggin’ polite to everyone. Fuck that. You are diminishing other people’s pain, and the fact that you are calling out victims rather than perpetrators is pretty telling. You are more concerned about yourself and your personal feelings than you are about how your actions may affect a whole class of people who are already on the losing end of a power dynamic. I’m not going to be POLITE.
debit
@chopper: I remember when this topic came up before on BJ and I (and other women) expressed the same sentiment. The reaction from most of the male denizens was not awesome, sort of a “How dare you think I would ever hurt a woman?!” general outrage.
Thanks for being aware that it’s not meant to be a personal indictment of every single man. And thanks for being so thoughtful and outspoken.
greennotGreen
@EthylEster: Really? So asking a sincere question about how best to solve a problem makes a person a “concern troll”? This is not how you have a conversation.
@Suzanne: I think you’re right, but people don’t want to feel bad about themselves, so if we call someone out on their behavior, we’re bound to get push-back, especially if we’re confrontational. There are some guys here, probably a lot of lurkers, for whom this will be a teaching moment. We should let them learn.
the Conster
@debit:
Every man IS a potential threat! Even and especially the ones you marry, according to the statistics. A woman has to be eternally vigilant for danger, even when she’s at home.
@ chopper is a mensch also too.
greennotGreen
@debit: I agree. Just today I was lamenting my misfortune of being heterosexual when men so seriously suck. And then I admitted, actually, it’s just that I have really bad taste in men. Kind of like pet rescue – I have a history of going for the guys who need veterinary care and tend to bite.
Jebediah, RBG
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
Men everywhere need to remember this, and act accordingly. Let women walk around in public the exact same way we are allowed to. If a woman is suspicious of me, even though I am actually not a threat, it isn’t her that’s doing me a wrong – it’s all the fucked up men and their fucked up behavior. Like Chopper said above – its our collective fault, and it needs to be fixed.
the Conster
@Jebediah, RBG:
Thank you. Only men can fix this. Understanding is the beginning, and you are beginning to see it. Once you understand the extent of the privilege you swim in, you can’t deny it exists anymore.
Unless you choose to.
Steeplejack
@Suzanne:
Perfect. This is it in a nutshell.
AdamK
@Southern Beale: I can hardly ever find old SNL stuff on youtube. I think someone’s suppressing it.
ascap_scab
Why am I an out-of-touch cabin dwelling hick if I never heard of Hollaback before now?
Steeplejack
@Davebo:
Clueless, you’re soaking in it. This blog has a somewhat random cohort of women—self-selected, yes, probably slightly left of center, but representing a range of ages, races and social situations. And the vast majority of them that comment are explicitly telling you that they do take offense at “a [male] stranger saying hi to them on the street,” or at least find it cause for alarm or heightened wariness. I haven’t seen a single comment from someone identifying as a women between 20-50 saying anything remotely like “What on earth are you talking about?” So maybe you should reëxamine your “pretty sure” assumption.
And Suzanne nailed it with this: “What you’re not grasping is that some of us would rather avoid Statement A [‘Hi’] if it cuts down on Statement B [‘How you doin’, baby?’], because Statement B makes us a lot more afraid than Statement A makes us feel good.”
Suzanne
@greennotGreen: I used to feel that way, but then I realized that politeness never really characterized any of the successful social movements.
The master’s tools and the master’s house, etc etc etc.
chopper
@debit:
To be fair, being told that you’re not trustworthy because of what some other shitheads have done is never a good feeling. I can understand the defensiveness. It just does nothing to change the underlying reality. And reality has to be accepted.
It’s like finding out your black neighbor doesn’t trust you because you’re white. At first you’re pissed. Then you stop and think ‘oh, yeah’.
chopper
What’s funny is, I went on a jog this morning and as soon as I hit the beltline (the paved running/walking/biking trail here) the first person to pass me was a young woman who looked dead at me and said ‘good morning!’ as she ran by.
Then again, I wasn’t exactly ‘fitting the profile’ of a creepy dude.
Barrier
This has been very educational for me at least. Even though I believe that I am a male who respects women, it never really occurred to me that so many women would be afraid of me just because of my gender.
Then again, I have always gotten nervous when having to deal with the Police because of so much shared experience with bad cops.
I guess all the women who have to regularly interact with men they don’t know, really consider themselves engaged in a necessary evil.