Maria Konnikova, in the New Yorker, on “The Limits of Friendship“:
Robin Dunbar came up with his eponymous number almost by accident. The University of Oxford anthropologist and psychologist (then at University College London) was trying to solve the problem of why primates devote so much time and effort to grooming. In the process of figuring out the solution, he chanced upon a potentially far more intriguing application for his research. At the time, in the nineteen-eighties, the Machiavellian Intelligence Hypothesis (now known as the Social Brain Hypothesis) had just been introduced into anthropological and primatology discourse. It held that primates have large brains because they live in socially complex societies: the larger the group, the larger the brain. Thus, from the size of an animal’s neocortex, the frontal lobe in particular, you could theoretically predict the group size for that animal.
Looking at his grooming data, Dunbar made the mental leap to humans. “We also had humans in our data set so it occurred to me to look to see what size group that relationship might predict for humans,” he told me recently. Dunbar did the math, using a ratio of neocortical volume to total brain volume and mean group size, and came up with a number. Judging from the size of an average human brain, the number of people the average person could have in her social group was a hundred and fifty. Anything beyond that would be too complicated to handle at optimal processing levels. For the last twenty-two years, Dunbar has been “unpacking and exploring” what that number actually means—and whether our ever-expanding social networks have done anything to change it… (In reality, it’s a range: a hundred at the low end and two hundred for the more social of us.)…
As constant use of social media has become the new normal, however, people have started challenging the continued relevance of Dunbar’s number: Isn’t it easier to have more friends when we have Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram to help us to cultivate and maintain them?… Yet, when researchers tried to determine whether virtual networks increase our strong ties as well as our weak ones, they found that, for now, the essential Dunbar number, a hundred and fifty, has remained constant. When Bruno Gonçalves and his colleagues at Indiana University at Bloomington looked at whether Twitter had changed the number of relationships that users could maintain over a six-month period, they found that, despite the relative ease of Twitter connections as opposed to face-to-face one, the individuals that they followed could only manage between one and two hundred stable connections. When the Michigan State University researcher Nicole Ellison surveyed a random sample of undergraduates about their Facebook use, she found, while that their median number of Facebook friends was three hundred, they only counted an average of seventy-five as actual friends…
… So what happens if you’re raised from a young age to see virtual interactions as akin to physical ones? “This is the big imponderable,” Dunbar said. “We haven’t yet seen an entire generation that’s grown up with things like Facebook go through adulthood yet.” Dunbar himself doesn’t have a firm opinion one way or the other about whether virtual social networks will prove wonderful for friendships or ultimately diminish the number of satisfying interactions one has. “I don’t think we have enough evidence to argue either way,” he said…
It’s a really interesting article and you should read the whole thing before judging it based on my clip. But I’ll offer another piece of anec-data: When the Spousal Unit asked me how many people were actually reading my posts here, I immediately replied that I recognized “somewhere around a hundred-fifty regular commentors” out of a floating pool of perhaps five hundred nyms…
raven
Huh, I though there were a lot more than 500 but what do I know?
Baud
I am proud to have all of you as part of my Dunbar number set.
jl
” if you’re raised from a young age to see virtual interactions as akin to physical ones ”
Is that the case? I have friends (usually the nicer and more considerate ones at least in face-to-face interactions) who do not see virtual interactions as fhe same at all, either with people they have never met, or with people who they do know face-to-face. I tend to think the same way.
I don’t keep track of the nyms (or are they called handles?) here very carefully, and forget within a day or so the latest commenter to vilely attack me, like a skulking weasel, and dare question my infallible judgments. I can’t hold a grudge or keep tabs, because there are so many and time is so short.
There are exceptions, like raven, but he can unleash his flesh eating beetles at any time, is riled easily, so must be careful with him specifically.
Shana
“but the penguin would have to be 11 feet tall” or something like that. Don’t remember the exact wording, but it seemed to fit.
Suffern ACE
Is this the worst cat?
jl
@Shana: If there is an 11 foot tall penguin commenting here, I would remember that too.
Baud
@Suffern ACE:
What the hell was that?
@Shana:
Awesome.
Amir Khalid
@jl:
On the internet, nobody knows you’re an 11-foot penguin.
WereBear
I wonder what the Dunbar number of cats are.
Google is silent.
Baud
@raven:
Yeah. 150 regular commenters seems about right, but I’m surprised there are only 500 registered nyms here.
Maybe that’s not counting DougJ sockpuppets.
beltane
@Suffern ACE: That looks like a cross between a cat and a manatee.
jl
@Amir Khalid: If I were an 11 foot penguin commenting on the internet, I would let everyone know just exactly what I was. And they’d better listen up, dammital.
cg
I read you. And I like your posts. And I almost never comment, because that takes time I don’t want to invest. Keep up the good work.
Suffern ACE
@jl: most 11 foot penguins hang out at gawker.
Gin & Tonic
@cg: The time taken to comment is an expenditure, not an investment.
(jl reminded me that we have a quota of nitpicky comments.)
Baud
@Gin & Tonic:
I believe the precise economic term is “sunk cost.”
max
@Baud: I am proud to have all of you as part of my Dunbar number set.
Greetings, fellow set member, may you never be displaced by an inferior pseudonym. Yeah!
‘Social networking’ likely makes it *convenient* to interact with your Dunbar set in various monetizable thus allowing you to shorten the time spent on network maintenance so you can get on with more productive activities, such as watching commercials while waiting for video clips to play. Go Tech!
max
[‘I cam interfacing to the doggish member of my Dunbar set via foot networking.’]
Anne Laurie
@Baud:
Nah, by ‘floating pool’ I meant I guesstimate there are around 500 nyms commenting here over any given period, but there’s a certain amount of ‘churn’ as some people leave & others join the conversation. Heck, I’ve only been commenting here since 2008!
I’m sure there’s a way to scienterrifically calculate the numbers, but it’s beyond my tech skills, and I’m not sufficiently inspired to try hand-counting for a “paper & pencil” tally.
Applejinx
Man, I’m an autistic person. I got like 50 relevant people in my life I don’t forget (and whom I have a vague or clear sense of how they are). John Cole is one of those people though I’ve never met him.
It’s tricky being rain-man like that. Far more people consider me part of THEIR set, but I generally don’t feel it. If I’m smart, I can remind myself of their existence, otherwise all the people sort of drop away and I forget they even care.
Suffern ACE
@Baud: depends. Commenting regularly may be similar to grooming or sharing food. In which case it is an investment.
PurpleGirl
@Suffern ACE: Do 11 ft penguins have names, like that rabbit named Harvey…
scav
@Suffern ACE: I never thought there would be a thing I wouldn’t do for an 11 ft tall penguin sighting. Must be getting lazy in my antiquity — expecting them to come to me so I call yell at them about inappropriate ice-floe standing. well, ok, it would probably veer off into geographic methodology of ice-floe posture or who knows what.
smintheus
Brain capacity seems like a dead end – poor choice of words, maybe – for this question. Hours in the day would be more like it. Or, number of interesting/agreeable people you’re likely to find yourself in regular contact with.
Omnes Omnibus
I am the penguin, goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob.
ETA: Contrary to most reports, I am only about 5′ 10″.
Baud
@Anne Laurie:
Thanks for the clarification.
And “scienterrifically” is a cromulent word!
suzanne
150 is approximately the number of FB “friends” I have. I hate people, though. Don’t know if I’m a good person to ask.
Omnes Omnibus
@suzanne: I have about 80, but I have made a rather determined effort to keep my numbers limited.
suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: I should probably thin the herd! but I can’t be bothered. At this point, I only unfriend the catastrophically annoying.
mikefromArlington
I’m gonna start deleting Facebook friends and leaving posts on their wall. “Sorry bra, Dunbar number exceeded”
The Bobs
Police kill unarmed black teen in STL tonight. Large crowd gathering.
Omnes Omnibus
@suzanne: I would bet the number with whom you actually interact is significantly smaller than your total. I think the Dunbar number is pretty close to the reality of my non-casual personal circle. I wouldn’t count some guy from my fraternity in college with whom I would have drinks if I happened to be in Geneva, Switzerland, as a part of my actual stable social group.
p.a.
#151 checking in.
Omnes Omnibus
@p.a.: Who are you?
lamh36
3 more weeks until my Hawaii vacation.
I’ve been looking into the different things I’d like to do.
So I’ll be in Honolulu the longest. I’ll be using public transportation for the first part of the Honolulu trip. So I’m looking at all the possible places I can get to on the Bus, which as I’ve been reading can get you almost everywhere on O’ahu. I’m already thinking the Iolani Palace and The Dole Plantation (I’d really love to see the Pineapple maze) and of course Pearl Harbor. All of which you can get to via the Bus.
I’ve already ruled out hiking Diamond Head though, I know my body’s limitations and after reading the description at the website, I just already kinda realized that the steepness of the trail would really NOT be fun for me. I’d like to NOT spend my time on vacation in a ER room for having an asthma attack. Still I’m gonna see how much an aerial tour would be, and if I come into some extra funds, I’ll try that.
The final bit of my vacation will be 3 days 2 night in Hilo. That trip is gonna be ALL about Volcano National Park. Then home to NOLA via overnight in Oakland.
So I’ll be spending about 1 whole day in Oakland. I’d like to see some of San Francisco, so I’m thinking the cheapest and easiest is probably gonna be one of those hop on/hop off tours, but I’ll have to see. The primary purpose of this trip is Hawaii, so i’m not really looking to spend much money in the Bay area.
StringOnAStick
@The Bobs: Oh no; didn’t the cops learn anything last time, or are they looking to burn it all down so they can salve their egos? Dumb question on my part.
max
“but the penguin would have to be 11 feet tall” or something like that. Don’t remember the exact wording, but it seemed to fit.
“For a penguin to have a brain the size of a man, it would have to be over sixty-six feet high.”
max
[‘That must be an interesting Dunbar set.’]
Omnes Omnibus
@lamh36: My parents went there a year or so ago. A present from dad ( who had no real interest in going) to my mom who did. Since then I have heard my dad saying, “Next time, we should do this….. I am sure you will have fun.
lamh36
@lamh36: On my last 2 nights in Honolulu before heading to Hilo, I’m going to rent a car and use it to go driving around the Oahu island and checking out as much as I can. I’m hoping for great weather.
burnspbesq
I missed this when it was first posted in late August, but our old pal Emily Hauser hit a five-run home run with this.
http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2014/08/22/a-reminder-israel-wasnt-kidnapped-by-the-far-right-it-was-handed-over-by-the-vast-jewish-middle/
Gin & Tonic
@StringOnAStick: St. Louis Post-Dispatch is writing that the person shot and killed had first shot at the officer (who was off-duty and working private security) and that a gun was recovered at the scene.
Omnes Omnibus
@max: It could simply have a disproportionately large head.
BD of MN
My fb friend list is closer to a Tbogg Unit than a Dunbar Number… But it’s been a Friedman Unit since I’ve looked at my friend list, perhaps I shouldn’t let it go another dog year….
lamh36
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m sure of that. Everything that I’ve read has said that you need at least 1 week on each island to even come close to seeing everything.
burnspbesq
@The Bobs:
According to this, an off-duty cop moonlighting as private security shot someone who may or may not have been armed and may or may not have fired first.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/police-officer-fatally-shoots-pedestrian-who-fired-at-him-in/article_2d5a8c2a-97db-5cec-a477-1130d7d26f7e.html
Since I’m under no obligation to jump to conclusions, I’m not going to. You do what you want.
Suffern ACE
@lamh36: remember to leave time to RELAX!
burnspbesq
Speaking of St. Louis, isn’t this lovely? A neighborhood watch organized and staffed by the Klan? What could possibly go wrong?
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/kkk-distributes-fliers-in-fenton-subdivision-and-high-ridge/article_321c81fa-07db-5370-aa01-d2940a971c9a.html
Yatsuno
@Omnes Omnibus: An encephalitic penguin?
suzanne
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh yes, for sure. I deal with probably 20 people very frequently on FB. The rest much less.
Starting to get a sore throat. IT’S EBOLA, I KNOW IT.
Omnes Omnibus
@Suffern ACE: I was once advised to visit every place as though I will be coming back someday. That way I don’t feel the need to see everything this time. I ahve been to Paris may times and there are places that I “should” see that I haven’t yet. I intend to get to them sometime. That attitude really does help.
scav
Fink. Earlier penguin discovery in August was only 6′ 8″.
burnspbesq
Jeezus, they have some … interesting … crime in the St. Louis area.
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/lincoln-county-man-stabbed-times-in-dispute-over-missing-pig/article_e193ec62-da4e-53e0-b095-da3b955ce430.html
Mnemosyne
@lamh36:
I remember it being a little cheesy, but I enjoyed the Polynesian Cultural Center. If nothing else, there was a lot of equal-opportunity eye candy. Just try not to think too much about the fact that they’re all Mormons.
Omnes Omnibus
@burnspbesq: You are entering BBQ country right around there.
Tom Levenson
@lamh36: Hilo is just a base camp (too cloudy). Volcano stuff is great — but do yourself a favor and explore the north half of the Big Island. Rainforest; Mauna Kea and the mountains north of MK…and the fabulous coast on the Maui Strait. Just gorgeous, and off the tourist track for the most part. Rent a car for a day or two — you won’t regret it.
Re Oakland/SF — my home town (born at Alta Bates, raised just behind the Claremont Hotel). W. just a day, you might enjoy the ferries — Oakland to SF; SF to Tiburon. Alternatively — rent a car for a day if you can get one cheap enough and head off to Muir Woods, and return to SF on the coast road. Waaaaay different from the Gulf and NOLA.
lamh36
@Mnemosyne: see I had thought I’d read that somewhere. i was looking at places that have Luau entertainment. I’ll admit, the Mormon bits is what gave me pause over doing it though. So IDK?
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Jesus, “have” and “many”. I might actually be better served by autocorrect – it at least gives me the wrong words spelled correctly.
lamh36
@Tom Levenson: I’ve already reserved a car for the entirety of my Hilo trip. I’ll be there on a Saturday and Sunday. My main goal is VNP, but I figured I’d also want to see more. Also, from what I’ve read Hilo’s public transportation isn’t great, so renting a car would probably be the best idea.
I had planned to rent a car in the Bay area, but I figured I leave much of the Bay or a longer in-depth trip. I’ve always wanted to see the are and I’d like to see it with more time to mingle
Omnes Omnibus
@suzanne: I had it last Friday and Saturday, but my mine was based on trips to the loo and alternating shivers and sweats. I woke up at 7:45 am on Sunday feeling perky and wide-awake.
lamh36
@Suffern ACE: Oh yeah, I will def be relaxing. My first night there will be nothing but recovering from jet lag I’m sure. the next day will be my first full day. The day after that will be my birthday and I never planned to do anything but relax on that day for sure. the next day I will be checking into a cheaper hotel a little bit farther from the beach (but still walking distance). That’s when I’ll be renting the car and hopefully great weather allows me do do some driving around the island.
Mike E
I watched the two “ripped from headlines” Nova programs on the lost Malaysian flight and Ebola respectively. Good info from both shows: the one on the 777 pointed out the woeful tracking system that is waiting for ‘next gen’ satellites to close the gaps, and you can easily bypass the cockpit thru a huge service bay under the flight deck; and, the Ebola treatment used to successfully treat several high profile patients is derived from “infected” tobacco plants, but the scale-up to make this stuff on a meaningful scale may not be practical (or profitable).
max
@Omnes Omnibus: It could simply have a disproportionately large head.
It’s a Penguin NERD!
@suzanne: Starting to get a sore throat. IT’S EBOLA, I KNOW IT.
Wait! I had the EBOLAS just last week. Other than the shivering and shaking and the diarrhea it wasn’t so bad.
max
[‘It built character!’]
Omnes Omnibus
@max:
Me too. Obviously the concern is overblown.
Karen in GA
I have 104 FB friends, most of whom being people I’ve met. Took a few years to get that many, though. I’d have a few more but I ditched most of my family.
LauraPDX
There was a this recent NYT article about Waikiki that had some great ideas for things to do and try.
Karen in GA
Back before the internet, it was just called “Bola.”
Here all week.
Xenos
What would be the Dunbar number for the elephants and whales, then? Does every blue whale effectively know every other living blue whale if they live long enough?
agorabum
It’s called the monkeysphere.
Awesome and funny explanation of it all.