Atlanta Pro-Israel Protesters Bring Assault Rifles, Handguns, Call Islam Religion Of Death

There’s been a lot of attention placed on antisemitism at Palestinian solidarity rallies, particularly in Europe (the ADL has tried to make the same case for protests in the United States, but their evidence amounts mostly to a handful of signs comparing Israel to Nazis).

What’s been given less attention is the blatant extremism of the pro-Israel movement in the U.S.

Yesterday a friend and I attended a solidarity rally with Gaza outside the CNN Center in Atlanta. The organizers of the event worked with the American Friends Service Committee, a pacifist quaker organization, and made clear in their organizing instructions that we were not there to agitate against any religion or ethnic group and that it would not tolerate hate.

The rally was pretty refreshing and free of the hyperbole you see at a lot of Palestinian solidarity events. I only saw one sign directly comparing Israel to the Nazis, and a kid who looked like he was twelve and made it himself was holding it, so he’s got a little time to learn the unhelpfulness of that comparison.

Here are some pictures courtesy of my friend @brassiest.

brassiest

palestine

The crowd was multi-ethnic, including black, white, and brown people, Muslims, Jews, and atheists. I would say the crowd was majority Muslim, but it still had  the diversity you don’t typically see at pro-Israel events.

Unfortunately, you can’t say the same for the pro-Israel protesters at the event (who appeared to be the same crowd that held a larger rally earlier this week that, sadly, Jason Carter attended). Here’s some of the nice fellows on that side:

guns

These individuals were carrying rifles and hand guns that appeared to be semi-automatic (I’m not an expert on weapons, so I can’t really say what they were).

When I first encountered them I sort of assumed they just showed up — Islamophobic nuts who wanted to show off their Wal-Mart weapons to a largely Muslim crowd.

Then I went on the Facebook page of the event and it appears that one of the organizers, Ronen Asher, who writes on his  profile page that he’s originally from Tel Aviv, invited them:

 

ronen

ronen2

Then there was rhetoric like this from protestors, who explained to the press: “This is not about Israel vs. Gaza, this is about a religion that values life versus a religion that values death.” Keep in mind that this is what one of them was willing to say directly to a reporter:

 

This is who politicians, Democrats and Republicans, are siding with and pandering to.

As far as I know, nobody from AFSC called the Atlanta PD to make sure they could protect us from these guys.

UPDATE: Had to add this pic, the hat is too good

hat

 

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131 replies
  1. 1
    some guy says:

    This is not about Israel vs. Gaza, this is about a religion that values life versus a religion that values death.”

    Last night’s violence came after a UN school in Gaza, crowded with hundreds of Palestinians seeking refuge from fierce fighting, came under fire yesterday, killing at least 15 civilians and injuring more than 200.

  2. 2
    taylormattd says:

    I’m not sure a bunch of republican gun humpers from Georgia are good evidence of what “pro-Israel” folks are like in general.

  3. 3
    some guy says:

    Khan Younis and Beit Lahia, Gaza—Hussein Shinbari is the only member of his family that survived the attack on a United Nations school in Beit Hanoun on Thursday. He is covered in blood. His undershirt, his pants and his hands are all stained a deep red.

    After Israel launched its ground invasion into Gaza last week, the Shinbari family left their home in the northeastern town close to the Israeli border and sought shelter at the nearby school. “They told us it was safe,” Hussein says, sitting on the ground by the morgue of the Kamal Adwan Hospital in Beit Lahia.

    More than 1,500 displaced Palestinians were staying at the school. The conflict has caused unprecedented massive displacement in Gaza, forcing over 140,000 people to seek shelter in more than eighty UN shelters.

    On Thursday afternoon, the people in the Beit Hanoun school were told they were being transferred to another area, away from the shelling and clashes on the streets outside. According to multiple survivors, they were instructed to gather their scant belongings and assemble in the schoolyard to await buses that would take them to another shelter.

    At around 2:30 pm a barrage of artillery shells crashed into the school, according to witnesses. At least sixteen people were killed and more than 200 wounded, many of them women and children. Hussein lost his mother; his stepmother; his 16-year-old brother, Abel Rabo; his 12-year-old sister, Maria; and his 9-year-old brother, Ali.

    “I was the only one who walked out,” Hussein says. He helped carry his dying family members to the ambulances that eventually arrived. “I’m not asking Hamas or Fatah for anything,” he says. “I only have God left.”

  4. 4
    some guy says:

    @taylormattd:

    nope, I think they fit the profile pretty well. angry white males, yup. clueless boobs with little or no understanding of history, yup. aggrieved sense of victimhood, yup.

    sure look like your typical IDF supporter to me

  5. 5
    Zaid Jilani says:

    @taylormattd: Check out the post I did earlier on the polling. The bulk of the pro Israel lobby among voters today is Christian right folks

  6. 6
    Cacti says:

    The “religion that values life” has racked up a body count of 846 so far. About 3/4 of them non-combatants.

    The “religion that values death” have notched 37 kills, 34 of them uniformed military.

  7. 7
    some guy says:

    the cross tabs on the latest Gallup poll are pretty amazing. a whole 25% of Americans 18-29 feel Israel’s actions in Gaza are justified, and fully 36% of Americans age 30-49 support the killers in the IDF. 33% of American women support Israel’s actions, and 25% of Americans of color support the IDF.

    http://content.gallup.com/orig.....csrjea.png

  8. 8
    Waynski says:

    I’m so sick of the whole damned Israeli-Arab conflict. We should just tell everyone in the Middle East that we’re done. You’re on you’re own. If it costs another dollar a gallon at the pump, so be it. The Europeans tax the shit out of gas and they pay double what we do and nevertheless, they seem to do alright. F’em all. Let their Gods sort them out.

  9. 9
    taylormattd says:

    @Zaid Jilani: I have seen the polling and the way the trend is moving. Again, I’m not convinced your photo of gun humpers from Georgia is evidence of folks in general.

    I am also sick as fuck of the term “pro Israel”. The problem with almost every discussion of Israel and Palestine on left wing blogs is that it attracts largely those people who are reflexively pro-Israel and those people who are reflexively anti-Israel. The conversation on left wing blogs is dominated by those who want more invasion and occupation screaming at people who spend much of their online life flirting with antisemitism.

    Using the phrase “pro Israel” feeds right into this dynamic; it is a simplistic generalization and it eliminates from the conversation those Israelis who loathe Likud policies. It allows antisemites to paint with a broad brush. It allows wingnuts (like those in your picture) to falsely tar as antisemites those who simply oppose Likud brutality. I mean, in my opinion the current government of Israel is anti-Israel. There isn’t much worse for Israel than the policies of Bibi Netanyahu. I am deeply opposed to the horror that is taking place. Am I therefore “anti-Israel”? No. Ok, so am I then “pro-Israel”? Well, god no, not with what the current government is doing.

  10. 10
    some guy says:

    I’m so sick of the whole damned Israeli-Arab conflict. We should just tell everyone in the Middle East that (US taxpayers are) done funding the Israeli war machine.

    fyt

  11. 11
    Botsplainer says:

    This shit makes me want to donate to Hezbollah and Hamas.

  12. 12
    Botsplainer says:

    @taylormattd:

    I used to like Labor Zionist Israel. A little prickly, a little left as to the national economy. Religiously tolerant,socially liberal and willing to work peaceably with the Arab MPs in the Knesset. Somewhere around the time you had this reeking upsurge in Hasids and deep connections with US fundamentalcases, things turned bad.

  13. 13
    Mike in NC says:

    I’m reading a book on the Spanish Civil War, where thousands of foreign volunteers (including over 2500 Americans in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade) went to Spain to fight and possibly die in a proxy war against fascism. Why don’t these gun nuts form the Ronald Reagan Brigade and go over to Gaza to fight — standing their ground, as it were — for Zionism?

    What, you mean they’re just a bunch of losers staging a photo op?

  14. 14
    Zaid Jilani says:

    @taylormattd: i certainly agree that critics of Israel are not anti-Israel. But all the organizations who support Israeli policies towards Palestinians refer to themselves as “pro-israel.” The exception is J Street, which doesnt accomplish much at all (they’ve been more useful towards Iran policy). On the Hill, it’s all about being “pro-Israel.” In a literal sense it doesnt make much sense — isn’t combating global warming “pro-Israel” thats a real threat to Israel but thats the terminology used. There is also little distinction between Likud and other Israeli parties at this point on this issue. Liberal zionst hero Tzipi Livni backs the Gaza offensive wholeheartedly and hasn’t said a word about the IDF killing protesters in the West Bank

  15. 15
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Botsplainer: I’m not sure there ever was such a golden age.

    Also to be factored in, the Russians — that’s Lieberman’s base — and a generation before that, the Yemeni, Moroccan, etc. Mizrahim.

  16. 16
    different-church-lady says:

    @taylormattd:

    I’m not sure a bunch of republican gun humpers from Georgia are good evidence of what “pro-Israel” folks are like in general.

    Heck, they’re not even good evidence of what human beings are like in general.

  17. 17
    different-church-lady says:

    @taylormattd:

    The problem with almost every discussion of Israel and Palestine anything on left wing blogs anywhere on the internet is that it attracts largely those people who are reflexively pro-Israel something and those people who are reflexively anti-Israel that same thing.

  18. 18
    Baud says:

    @different-church-lady:

    I couldn’t disagree more.

  19. 19
    different-church-lady says:

    @Baud: You could if you put more effort into it.

  20. 20
    Zaid Jilani says:

    @different-church-lady: This is something I’m hearing a lot from American writers, but it strikes me as a little strange. Israel-Palestine is polarized on the Internet, sure, but certainly not in Congress, where support for Israel is near 100%. And if the issue is so controversial that people have to complain that it’s controversial, what are the non controversial issues? I’m pretty sure conversations about the Affordable Care Act and climate change aren’t without hostility or trolls.

    Shorter me: Let’s stop complaining this issue is controversial and confusing. Let’s be responsible progressives and tackle it anyway

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @different-church-lady:

    It’s the weekend.

  22. 22
    Anton Sirius says:

    @Baud: M: An argument isn’t just contradiction.
    A: It can be.
    M: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
    A: No it isn’t.
    M: Yes it is! It’s not just contradiction.
    A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
    M: Yes, but that’s not just saying ‘No it isn’t.’
    A: Yes it is!
    M: No it isn’t!
    A: Yes it is!
    M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
    A: (short pause) No it isn’t.
    M: It is.
    A: Not at all.
    M: Now look…
    A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.

  23. 23
    gbear says:

    A couple weeks ago I was driving to a meeting and listening to the BBC news hour on public radio. They did a lengthy interview with the superintendent of one of these UN schools. He spoke of how crowded it is in Gaza and how there was really no safe place for anyone to go except for the UN schools, which were housing tens of thousands of people during these outbreaks of shelling. He was mourning that any six year old in his area had been forced to relocate from his home to the school three times already.

    I wish I could remember his name so that I could link to the story. His description of what it’s like to live in Gaza was heartbreaking. He was so grateful that his UN school could be a safe haven. I wonder if it was his school that was hit.

    @Cacti:

    The “religion that values life” has racked up a body count of 846 so far. About 3/4 of them non-combatants.
    The “religion that values death” have notched 37 kills, 34 of them uniformed military.

    I just wanted to repost these numbers. The lopsidedness of the killing is sickening.

  24. 24
    gbear says:

    The fucking audio autoplay ads on this site have got to go.

  25. 25
    efgoldman says:

    This is not about Israel vs. Gaza, this is about a religion that values life versus a religion that values death.”

    I am an atheist, but I was born (three years before Israel) and brought up Jewish. It’s not Judaism I discarded, but all faith in a supreme being.
    Nevertheless, my culture is my culture, my traditions and rituals are my traditions and rituals. I said Kaddish for my parents and grandparents. mrs efgoldman (born and brought up Catholic) and I lit Hannukah lights and hosted Seders. We will do so again with our granddaughter. Many of my 17 cousins went to school or camp in Israel. Many in my father’s family helped build Israel. I was always taught that Israel was, first, a safe homeland for the Jews, where there hadn’t been one before, and second, a brave,competent island of democracy surrounded by those who would, in their words, “drive it into the sea.” I thought Camp David was the greatest act of diplomacy in my lifetime, and Sadat one of the bravest people who ever lived.
    And yet…
    Even though I have never been there, even though I would never claim citizenship of anywhere but the US, even though my only connection is news reports.
    I am ashamed.

  26. 26
    Tommy says:

    I am always stunned here. The Jews I know want a two state solution. They hate what is being done. One of them is the child of a holocaust survivor. They know hate. Lived it. They want things to b different.

  27. 27
    different-church-lady says:

    @gbear:

    The fucking audio autoplay ads on this site have got to go.

    a) Flashblock — it works.

    b) Cole is working on it, but he’s got a bigger project overshadowing it at the moment.

  28. 28
    Cacti says:

    From Ayman Mohyeldin:

    aymanm
    4 hours ago · Shejaiya

    July 26, 2014 | Shejaiya Cemetery, Gaza. Relatives frantically digging graves in an open lot being used as a cemetery. The stream of bodies was too fast for gravediggers to keep up with number of bodies being brought from nearby hospitals. The graves were being marked with cinder blocks from the rubble of nearby buildings destroyed by Israeli shelling. All that identifies where the dead are buried are the pieces of hand-written cardboard.

    Good to know that the Senate could cross partisan lines to pass a unanimous resolution in support of this slaughter.

  29. 29
  30. 30
    Trentrunner says:

    What many here and elsewhere don’t understand is that there is a very large proportion of the American electorate that thinks that entire region can just go fuck itself.

  31. 31
    elmo says:

    @Botsplainer:

    this reeking upsurge in Hasids

    Really? We’re going there? Really
    Are we going to talk about moneylending next? Or hooknoses, I love talking about those.

    It would be a lot harder for Israel-firsters to accuse their opponents of anti-Semitism if it didn’t keep creeping into the discourse about Israel.

  32. 32
    BobS says:

    @taylormattd: Republican gun humpers from Georgia? I thought that was Walter, Donny, and the nihilists from The Big Lebowski.

  33. 33
    gbear says:

    @Trentrunner:
    What many here and elsewhere don’t understand is that there is a very large proportion of the American electorate that thinks that entire all region can should just go fuck itself.

    Why discriminate?

  34. 34
    different-church-lady says:

    @BobS: Say what you want about the tenants of national socialism Zionism, at least it’s an ethos.

  35. 35
    WaterGirl says:

    @Trentrunner: My feelings about what is going on between Israel and Palestine have nothing to do with religion and nothing to do with the creation of a safe homeland for the Jewish people.

    It has everything to do with Israel’s periodic slaughter of Palestinians, alternated with other inhuman treatment of Palestinians. How different is this than viewing slaves as 3/5 of a person? What Israel is doing sickens me and is reminiscent of what the Nazis did to the Jews.

    I am not anti-Israel or anti-Jewish, but I am all for not slaughtering innocent people for power.

    edited for clarity

  36. 36
    Cacti says:

    Really? We’re going there? Really
    Are we going to talk about moneylending next? Or hooknoses, I love talking about those.

    It would be a lot harder for Israel-firsters to accuse their opponents of anti-Semitism if it didn’t keep creeping into the discourse about Israel.

    Are you disputing that there is a rightist faction in Israeli politics whose policy positions are based on principles of religious dominionism?

  37. 37
    Tommy says:

    @efgoldman: Many, many years ago I moved to DC. I didn’t know a single person. My boss was Jewish and brought me into her house. Often for holidays I still don’t totally understand. Pretty Jewish. It is something I often think of. She brought me into her household and treated me like her own son. Something I will never forget. Even at that time I was political. We talked about stuff and I was always stunned how liberal she was on issues you might not think a Jew would be liberal on. It shapes my views till this day.

  38. 38
    different-church-lady says:

    @Tommy: It’s almost as though Jewish people are not monolithic, isn’t it?

  39. 39
    elmo says:

    @Cacti:
    Nope. And that excuses the reference to “reeking Hasids” how, exactly?
    It’s no different from calling Hamas “stinking towelheads,” to which I would object just as strongly.

  40. 40
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    If you’re looking for a “religion of death”, i give you the “Christians” who are all for bringing about the “end times” so that the Rapture happens and a select 100,000 of them are whisked away from the hell on Earth that will be created so their loving God can punish everyone else who have been of insufficient faith.

  41. 41
    WaterGirl says:

    I was raised Catholic but I also grew up reading the books by Chaim Potok. I started with The Chosen, followed by The Promise; I believe I read every book he ever wrote.

    Those books had a huge impact on my life; there was a theme of honor in those books and such an emphasis on respect and how you should treat other people.

    I just cannot reconcile the nation that was created of a safe homeland for the Jewish people and what I learned of the Jewish faith from those books with what I see of Israel today.

    They have become what they feared, hated and reviled. The victim has become the abuser. It’s tragic.

  42. 42
    lawguy says:

    @Mike in NC: What book? I’ve recently become fascinated by what caused people of that period to go and fight in that war.

  43. 43
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Botsplainer:

    I used to like Labor Zionist Israel. A little prickly, a little left as to the national economy. Religiously tolerant,socially liberal and willing to work peaceably with the Arab MPs in the Knesset. Somewhere around the time you had this reeking upsurge in Hasids and deep connections with US fundamentalcases, things turned bad.

    That’s exactly my sense as well. Add to that the general Islamophobia in the US, and it’s sadly not a surprise where the numbers shake out in the polls. Most – not all – but most of the reflexive “Israel can do no wrong” types have at best a superficial understanding of the region and its history, both recent and removed.

  44. 44
    Tommy says:

    @different-church-lady: Yes. The Jewish people I know are the most liberal people I know. Clearly not all are, but just my experience.

  45. 45
    Cacti says:

    @elmo:

    It’s no different from calling Hamas “stinking towelheads,”

    Well, other than one being the name of actual sect within the orthodox movement, and the other having no functional context outside of ethnic slurs.

  46. 46
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mike in NC:

    What, you mean they’re just a bunch of losers staging a photo op?

    Well, the timing is bad. The Fall tailgating at college football games season is approaching, and they can’t miss that.

  47. 47
    BobS says:

    @different-church-lady: I think you meant to write ‘tenets of Zionism’. Unless you meant to refer to the residents of Gaza and the West Bank, who could be considered “tenants of Zionism”.

  48. 48
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tommy:

    We talked about stuff and I was always stunned how liberal she was on issues you might not think a Jew would be liberal on. It shapes my views till this day.

    Like what? Any examples?

  49. 49
    WaterGirl says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    … most of the reflexive “Israel can do no wrong” types have at best a superficial understanding of the region and its history.

    The phrase in italics describes me perfectly – at best a superficial understanding of the region and its history.

    But that doesn’t mean I can’t be disgusted with what Israel is becoming and horrified at how they are treating the Palestinians. How we got to this place is ugly and messy and confusing, but that doesn’t excuse the behavior of Israel when they are slaughtering innocent people in Gaza and treating Palestinians as less than human.

    That’s what I don’t understand about all the fundamentalists who are looking for this to end a certain way so they can be raptured – do they think their god will not have noticed how they have behaved? I went to catholic school and I can’t seem to remember the parable about how it’s okay to treat a whole race of people as less than human if it gets you to the end you desire.

  50. 50
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @some guy:

    nope, I think they fit the profile pretty well. angry white males, yup. clueless boobs with little or no understanding of history, yup. aggrieved sense of victimhood, yup.

    Your standard “Southron” type.

  51. 51
    elmo says:

    @Cacti:
    You’re being disingenuous and parsing individual words. Does the word “Hasid” refer to a religious sect, or does it refer to a political movement dedicated to religious domination? It’s clearly a religious sect, of which some adherents are also bent on political and religious domination. Using the name of the sect as a whole as shorthand for the political actors is a lot like RWNJs referring to “stinking Jews” when they mean “stinking liberals.”

    And that’s just talking about your disingenuous focus on the word “Hasid,” and completely ignoring “reeking” as a modifier. Or are you now going to pretend that it was an honest, good-faith reference to the natural consequence of wearing a black suit in the summertime?

    We are better than this.

  52. 52
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @BobS: Well played.

  53. 53
    Tommy says:

    @Corner Stone: Palestinian at the top of the list. We talked about it for hours and hours.

  54. 54
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Cacti: Just this. The “religion that values life” sure does have a comfortable lead in the body count.

  55. 55
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @lawguy: I”m not sure if he’s referring to George Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia, but you can’t go wrong reading that.

  56. 56
    Corner Stone says:

    @Tommy: What about the Palestinians? What were her liberal views regarding them?

  57. 57
    scav says:

    @Tommy: Well, that’s a bit like expecting all Americans to be supporters of Bush the second. The diversity of opinion in Israel and among Jews et al. is another of the things that is being actively obscured and stamped down and magicked away in the usurpation of debate and solutions by the Israeli govt.

  58. 58
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @elmo: the quotation you’re responding to didn’t say “upsurge of reeking Hasids.” I don’t know what makes an upsurge reek, but that’s what he actually said: the upsurge, not the people themselves.

  59. 59
    Botsplainer says:

    @elmo:

    Really? We’re going there? Really

    Pretty much. I find them neither charming, quaint or cute.

    They’re flaming assholes, akin to redneck Talibornagain nightmares and Wahhabists in bad treatment of everybody deemed “other”. Their attitudes toward women and racial minorities ironically suck ass; of course when your entire ethos is based on militantly claiming a position as God’s elect on a racial basis, that’ll happen.

    How well did those authentic Hasids treat the immigrant Ethiopian Jews?

  60. 60
    Gator90 says:

    @efgoldman: Me, too.

  61. 61
    Cacti says:

    @elmo:

    You’re being disingenuous and parsing individual words

    Well, words do tend to mean things.

    They mean other things when you add modifiers, but absent modifiers, how are “Hasid” and “towelhead” even remotely similar?

    You made a poor comparison.

  62. 62
    elmo says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I think you’re reaching. As you say, an upsurge doesn’t reek. If an upsurge of people is said to reek, how is that not a reference to the people?
    Look, I don’t think I’m being hypersensitive or twisting words here. I read it, it bothered me – a LOT – and I called it out. It’s bothering me now that people are defending it. We are better than that, and we don’t need to talk about sects, or religion, or ethnicity, or any of those things that are fraught and sensitive, in order to condemn Israel’s assault on Gaza.
    Why even go there?

  63. 63
    Corner Stone says:

    @Botsplainer: *Drops the mike*!

  64. 64
    Corner Stone says:

    @taylormattd:

    The conversation on left wing blogs is dominated by those who want more invasion and occupation screaming at people who spend much of their online life flirting with antisemitism.

    I’ll note that you used the word “dominated” as a descriptor. But otherwise, IMO, there are two other large sectors of participants in these threads. One, those who claim that all deaths are irrelevant and we should just back off and “let them sort it out”. And two, some who are not Anti Israel, per se, but care deeply about the life’s lost due to apartheid conditions and lives lost due to unchecked militant aggression.

  65. 65
    jenn says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I might be amenable to this construction (although still bad), if I hadn’t also read other horrible comments by Botsplainer, here and at LGF.

  66. 66
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    I’m a one-stater. I think that’s the only way there will be peace-that’s under a secular state of all its people.

    So much of Zionism seems to be based on the fear that gentiles will act up again and persecute the Jews, so they need a place to go. That’s selling the rest of the world short-and assuming that no matter what, there will also be antisemites powerful enough to recreate the Holocaust.

    I believe that is a fundamental part of the nastiness we are seeing. Assume bad faith on everyone’s part but your own (and suspicious of anyone who puts out an olive branch within), and opportunities for real peace go into the gutter.

  67. 67
    chrome agnomen says:

    o/t will no one rid me of these obnoxious auto plays???

  68. 68
    Botsplainer says:

    @elmo:

    So who’s doing the settling in Palestinian areas and claiming divine right to do so? Are the old line labor Zionists doing it, or are they happily settled in to the older areas?

    Would it perhaps be the Israeli version of our conservatards?

  69. 69
    Mike in NC says:

    @lawguy: The Dark Valley, about the rise of fascism in Europe and Japan in the 1930s.

  70. 70
    Citizen_X says:

    @Botsplainer: Oh for fucks’ sake. Is that not an Hasid in the very first picture up top, wearing a Palestinian scarf and participating in a peace demonstration?

  71. 71
    Mike E says:

    @Anton Sirius: This bit during the last Python show was especially funny… Cleese and Palin certainly enjoyed it, put their backs into the routine.

  72. 72
    Botsplainer says:

    @jenn:

    I might be amenable to this construction (although still bad), if I hadn’t also read other horrible comments by Botsplainer, here and at LGF.

    So I take it that you disliked my “clear out the people and daisy cut all the holy sites, preferably with the religious leaders and most devoted followers staying behind in them and sobbing until the bitter end” suggestion for Jerusalem.

    I don’t get it-I’m not a monster. There’d be time for the normals of all ethnicity and faiths to evacuate, and “going down with the ship” was going to be completely voluntary. Plus, no nukes, so it wouldn’t negatively impact the area in an environmental sense.

    No muss, no fuss, nothing left to contend with outside of busted rock and concrete.

  73. 73
    Botsplainer says:

    @Citizen_X:

    His is a tiny fringe faction which, as I understand, doesn’t recognize reform or conservative Jews as authentically Jewish.

  74. 74
    some guy says:

    “One child has been killed in Gaza every hour for the past two days,” said a statement released Wednesday by the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs

    it’s the overt and targeted killing of kids that makes my blood boil. these are shameless monsters, and we need to do everything we can to help defend the people of Palestine from the aggressors.

  75. 75
    Mike E says:

    @Botsplainer: You forgot, “…and let G-d sort it out!”

  76. 76
    chopper says:

    @elmo:

    Actually, this upsurge in ultra-orthodox people who are trying to take more and more control over Israel’s government sure as shit does reek. It reeks of Jewish dominionism.

    but what do I know, I’m just an apparently self-hating Jew.

  77. 77
    trollhattan says:

    How many of those gun-humpers are there because they get to show off Bubba and Junior (“mah rifle and mah pistol”) in public, with the bonus of mocking hippies? Some portion may well carry Junior Likud Member cards but I suspect others are there for very different reasons. Either way, it’s a truly unholy alliance.

  78. 78
    lawguy says:

    @Mike in NC: Thanks

  79. 79
    Corner Stone says:

    “You are welcome Sir. Just doing our job…”
    I wonder if there’s any chance we can convince him his highest use is in Israel, protecting the population there?

  80. 80
    Roger Moore says:

    @CarolDuhart2:

    So much of Zionism seems to be based on the fear that gentiles will act up again and persecute the Jews, so they need a place to go. That’s selling the rest of the world short-and assuming that no matter what, there will also be antisemites powerful enough to recreate the Holocaust.

    It’s also constitutes putting all your eggs in one basket. One of the reasons that Judaism survived the Holocaust and all the pogroms and other attacks is because Jews were spread out across the world. Yes, that increased the chance that any particular group of Jews would be oppressed or attacked, but it meant that there have always been some Jews in safe places. That has meant that Judaism as a whole has always been safe. Moving all the Jews into Israel may make them more capable of defending themselves, but it also makes them a more attractive target for any megalomaniac anti-Semite who really wants to wipe out the whole lot. It seems to me that the only other group it’s really attractive for is megalomaniacal Jewish religious authorities who want to restore the Temple with themselves in charge.

  81. 81
    trollhattan says:

    O/T Fast-growing wildfire in Amador County (CA) wine country. It’s really hot and dry today, but at least not windy.

    http://www.sacbee.com/2014/07/.....-fire.html

  82. 82
    Citizen_X says:

    @Corner Stone:

    “Just doing our job…”

    What “job?” Dry-humping an AR-15 around pro-Israel demonstrations? Get a real job, fatso.

    I swear, the delusions of grandeur these people hold.

  83. 83
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @gbear: I think I heard that too.

    This might be it.

    At least 40 people were killed and 55 injured when Israeli artillery shells landed outside a United Nations-run school in Gaza, UN officials have said.

    A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp was hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

    Israel said its soldiers had come under fire from militants inside the school.
    Earlier, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned of a “full-blown humanitarian crisis” in Gaza.

    Speaking on the 11th day of the Israeli assault, a senior ICRC official, Pierre Kraehenbuhl, said life in Gaza had become intolerable.

    Oh, wait. Sorry. That was from 2009.

    :-(

    Doing a Google search for “site:bbc.co.uk UN Gaza school” (without the quotes) might turn it up.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  84. 84
    Trentrunner says:

    Come somebody come up with a solution, finally?

  85. 85
    El Caganer says:

    @some guy: Targeting children? Wherever could they have come up with such an idea?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.....k_Massacre

  86. 86
    Mnemosyne says:

    @El Caganer:

    Does that mean that the US is hypocritical whenever we tell other people to end slavery in their countries since slavery was still legal when Chivington was massacring women and children?

    Sorry, but pointing to US treatment of Native Americans 150 years ago to justify the treatment of Palestinians right now is fucked up.

  87. 87
    El Caganer says:

    @Mnemosyne: Justification? There wasn’t any justification then and there isn’t now – hell, Chivington was widely condemned in his own time. The only person I’ve ever heard who seems to think this line of argument is an actual justification is Doughy Pantload, and you’ll seriously hurt my tender feelings if you’re comparing me to him.

  88. 88
    PurpleGirl says:

    The man holding the microphone in the first picture is probably Hasidic. Or maybe one of the other communities on that side of the Jewish religious spectrum. (Their names escape me for the moment.) However, some of these communities do not believe in the validity of Israel and as such find some common ground with Palestinians. At one of the rallies in NYC last weekend, there was a separate rally by these ultra orthodox Jews, near in location to the Palestinian rally.

  89. 89
    Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name) says:

    @elmo: No one said “reeking Hasids.”

  90. 90
    Mnemosyne says:

    @elmo:

    I had to read it over several times, but I think what Botsplainer was trying to say is that the collusion between far-right Hasids and far-right Christians reeks (presumably of coordination or cooperation between the two groups). He certainly could have been more clear.

  91. 91
    Baud says:

    @PurpleGirl:

    some of these communities do not believe in the validity of Israel and as such find some common ground with Palestinians

    I first learned of them a few years ago. They believe that the Messiah is the one who is foretold to establish the new Isreal, so the current Isreal is illegitimate.

    It’s interesting the type of things people believe.

  92. 92
    different-church-lady says:

    @trollhattan:

    How many of those gun-humpers are there because they get to show off Bubba and Junior (“mah rifle and mah pistol”) in public, with the bonus of mocking hippies?

    It’s no longer possible to separate the individual ingredients in the wingnut casserole.

  93. 93
    Ben says:

    @trollhattan:
    Given the rallies here in IL, I happen to agree. This is a function of open carry in the South IMO..

  94. 94
    Mnemosyne says:

    @El Caganer:

    Why else claim that the US’s actions of 150 years ago are to blame for Israel’s current actions where there’s a more likely model at hand?

  95. 95
    Karen in GA says:

    I’ll bet half of those ammosexuals couldn’t find Israel on a map.

  96. 96
    Karen in GA says:

    @Trentrunner: I see what you did there. Not nuts about it, but I see it.

  97. 97
    El Caganer says:

    @Mnemosyne: Could have gotten a whole lot more apocalyptic, too….give the Rapturers something to Rapturalize about.

    http://www.theguardian.com/wor.....ar-weapons

  98. 98
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’m uncertain whether to point out the conclusion you’ve jumped to or make popcorn.

  99. 99
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Botsplainer: I’ll give him props for the peace rally. I admit to some ( by some I mean “much”) dismay at the extremism of the current Israeli government and its aggressive behavior. But I’m not going to paint every Hasidic Jew in the US with that same brush. Which won’t stop me from condemning the slaughter as a shanda.

  100. 100
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Karen in GA: You’re being generous. Somewhat <27% is my guess.

  101. 101
    Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name) says:

    @Tommy: Why is it surprising that Jews have liberal views? I would guess that Jews run the gamut of the the political spectrum, but based on voting patterns, they, as a group, lean strongly Democratic.

  102. 102
    dslak says:

    @Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): You over-react to to a terrorist attack or two, and suddenly you’re right-wing. Reminds me of another country a few years back . . .

  103. 103
    Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name) says:

    @dslak: Are you perhaps conflating Jews and Israelis?

  104. 104
    dslak says:

    @Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name): That wasn’t my aim, but Jews are more likely to be aware of small-scale attacks on Israeli citizens than the average American, and thus be less “liberal” when it comes to what they think of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.

  105. 105
    Ben says:

    @dslak:
    Yeah, there has never been an attack on the scale of 9/11 in Israel…closest one I can think of was a suicide bombing of a Passover Seder in 2002, which killed about 30 people, most of them elderly Jewish immigrants from Russia.

    Or as Botsplainer would view them, justified targets…

  106. 106
    dslak says:

    @Ben: Of course. That someone might possibly hold morally reprehensible views is sufficient reason to kill them. . . unless they’re a Palestinian. That’s how we show that we’re anti-imperialist and pro-human rights.

  107. 107
    Not Adding Much to the Community says:

    @Ben: Oh bullshit. Where did anybody say that?

  108. 108
    Not Adding Much to the Community says:

    I say go with the Bartcop plan and give Oklahoma to the Jews. That would solve the problem.

  109. 109
    dslak says:

    @Not Adding Much to the Community: No one wants Oklahoma. That’s why the Native Americans were sent there.

  110. 110
    Ben says:

    @Not Adding Much to the Community:
    I’m torn. Oklahoma is shitty, but seeing wingnut heads explode might be worth it…

  111. 111
    SatanicPanic says:

    Look like San Diego Comic-Con doesn’t have a monopoly on nerds doing cosplay this weekend.

  112. 112
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Ben: If you really want to see that, let’s give it to the Palestinians

  113. 113
    different-church-lady says:

    @SatanicPanic:

    @Ben: If you really want to see that, let’s give it to the Palestinians unaccompanied border-crossing kids.

  114. 114
  115. 115
    chopper says:

    @Citizen_X:

    guys like that (in terms of opinions about Palestinians) are a very, very small minority among the ultra-orthodox. exception, not rule.

  116. 116
    Cervantes says:

    @Ben:

    Yeah, there has never been an attack on the scale of 9/11 in Israel…closest one I can think of was a suicide bombing of a Passover Seder in 2002, which killed about 30 people, most of them elderly Jewish immigrants from Russia.

    In Israel? In 1978, Palestinian militants hijacked a bus on a highway, killed 38 Israelis, and wounded another 70. That’s the single most deadly Palestinian attack to date that I know of.

    But there have been deadlier attacks in the neighborhood, haven’t there?

    For example, in October 1948, in Al-Dawayima, one of many ancient Arab villages that existed in Israel’s Lakhish district, the following occurred:

    [Israeli Prime Minister] Ben-Gurion, quoting General Avner, briefly referred in his war diary to the ‘rumours’ that the [Israeli Army] had ‘slaughtered 70–80 persons.’ [A second-hand account by Kaplan, a parliamentarian] described the witness [an Israeli soldier] as ‘one of our people, an intellectual, 100 percent reliable.’ The village, wrote Kaplan, had been held by Arab ‘irregulars’ and was captured by the 89th Battalion without a fight. ‘The first [wave] of conquerors killed about 80 to 100 men, women, and children. The children they killed by breaking their heads with sticks. There was not a house without dead,’ wrote Kaplan. Kaplan’s informant, who arrived immediately afterwards in the second wave [of attackers], reported that Arab men and women who remained were then shut away in houses ‘without food or water.’ Sappers arrived to blow up the houses. One commander ordered a sapper to put two old women in a certain house … and to blow up the house with them. The sapper refused … The commander then ordered his men to put the old women in the house and the evil deed was done. One soldier boasted that he had raped a woman and then shot her. One woman, with a newborn baby in her arms, was employed to clean the courtyard where the soldiers ate. She worked a day or two. In the end they shot her and her baby.

    The quotation is from Israeli historian Benny Morris (The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, 2004).

    I estimate the death toll in Al-Dawayima to have been in excess of 180 — so you see, the Palestinians still have a lot to learn about efficient murder.

    And as for the aforementioned Lakhish district, more than 70,000 people live there now — every single one of whom is Jewish.

    Imagine that.

  117. 117
    tybee says:

    @Cervantes:

    and although the victims certainly weren’t all palestinian, the attack on the king david hotel by a future prime minister of israel certainly rates mention in the ongoing trading of atrocities.

  118. 118
    William Burns says:

    @Zaid Jilani:

    I dream of the day when AIPAC realizes that global warming is a threat to Israel. Maybe we’ll actually get some action out of Congress then.

  119. 119
    xenos says:

    @PurpleGirl: Was that not the central issue in The Chosen? The Sockialist protagonist supports Israel while his ultra-orthodox best friend considers Zionism to be blasphemy?

    Specific ultra-orthodox groups may police their members quite closely, but there is a great deal of diversity of thought in that cultural wing of Judaism as a whole.

  120. 120
    Bobbo says:

    I have a pretty strong feeling there were a lot more Jew-haters on the “pro-Israel” side of this particular demonstration

  121. 121
    J R in WV says:

    If Israel doesn’t want to be compared to Nazis, they should stop acting like Nazis! The most amazing turn around for a nation ever, from fleeing Nazis to being Nazis in one generation!

    They aren’t committing quite genocide (or are they in Gaza using modern military on unarmed civilans?) but it is so obvious that many of the likudnics WANT to do it but can’t quite (thank Dog) bring themselves to. So they’re ethnic cleansing instead.

    Is the Gaza attack genocide? I don’t watch TV so I haven’t seen the bombardments…. so you tell me, are they? Sounds like probs are.

    Horrible!

  122. 122
    Cervantes says:

    @J R in WV:

    The most amazing turn around for a nation ever, from fleeing Nazis to being Nazis in one generation!

    Whether we describe it as “being Nazis” or “behaving with unspeakable evil,” it did not take one generation; they were doing it within three years.

  123. 123
    taylormattd says:

    You see @Zaid? Look at the two previous comments, among others. Every fucking time. There is no point attempting to discuss Palestine on liberal blogs. None.

  124. 124
    Cervantes says:

    @taylormattd: Illiteracy is a terrible thing in this modern world.

  125. 125

    @WaterGirl: Yet Zionism has always had radical factions. The pre-Israeli paramilitary organization Haganah (The Defense), practiced a policy of havlagah (restraint) and acted only in defense of the Jewish migrants to Palestine. But Haganah had an offshoot, Irgun, which did not practice that restraint, and that, in turn, had an offshoot, Lehi, which modeled itself on the Irish Republican Army. And the last commander of Irgun was Menachem Begin, and one of the leaders of Lehi was Yitzhak Shamir. In the early 1970s, Begin and Shamir, among others, founded a party called Likud, which is making life in Gaza hell on earth.

    We talk about Israel as though it has moderate politics. But, in fact, its politics are very much like what ours would be should the Tea Party Republicans come to dominate them.

    @CarolDuhart2: “So much of Zionism seems to be based on the fear that gentiles will act up again and persecute the Jews, so they need a place to go.”

    This is a well-founded fear. Over the past 1500 years there have been periods of tolerance, those have always ended and the anti-semites again come to persecute Jews. Part of the tragedy of the Holocaust was that the rest of the “civilized” world refused to take in the Jews of Europe. It wasn’t just that Germany killed six million; it’s that much of Europe, and especially the United States, was unwilling to take in or defend the Jews of Europe. There seems little doubt that had the USA been willing to accept the Jews of Europe as refugees, Zionism would have been a much lesser force in Jewish and world politics, and the course of history would have been much different.

  126. 126
    keestadoll says:

    Is anyone out there in the international community demanding that Palestinians remove their arms from civilian areas? I did this google search: “…demands that Palestinian militants remove arms from civilian areas” and got nothing beyond cache in the vein of “Hamas puts Palestinians in danger by hiding arms and fighters in civilian areas.”

  127. 127

    @keestadoll: Gaza’s population density is comparable to that of Boston. There is no place for Hamas to remove their weapons to. Any war in Gaza is necessarily a war on civilians.

    (Some maps to this point at Business Insider.)

    Hamas is a major Palestinian political party, and is no more separable from the Palestinians than Likud is from the Israelis.

    US media have fostered the impression that Hamas is like one of our backcountry paramilitaries, and this is wrong. Palestine is a small place.

  128. 128
    Cervantes says:

    @keestadoll:

    Is anyone out there in the international community demanding that Palestinians remove their arms from civilian areas?

    Probably the same people demanding that Israel store its “secret” nuclear warheads and weapons out in the open as well.

  129. 129
    keestadoll says:

    @The Raven on the Hill: Ok, I get that and the BI link was very illuminating, however what I don’t know is–and maybe you can help me out here–is there ANY SOLELY military base/camp/what have you in ANY of the Palestinian territories from which they can launch the missiles they’re launching? It is well-documented that Hamas places armaments within houses and schools–are these the ONLY places they can put them? I guess what I’m saying is that Hamas knows IDF doesn’t hesitate to target WHEREVER armaments/militants are, so aren’t they continually placing their own citizens at risk?

  130. 130

    @keestadoll: Mmmm, good question. Apparently there is, and it is all underground and concealed. Any visible base would be an immediate target for Israel’s air and missile strikes.

    From the viewpoint of Hamas, apparently, all civilians of Gaza are already in danger from Israel, have been so for a very long time, and that threat is present regardless of the siting of their bases. They are not wrong in this: the Israeli blockade is leading to widespread food insecurity in Gaza and UN officials estimate that Gaza will be uninhabitable by 2020. If matters continue as they are, tens of thousands of Palestinians will die of hunger and thirst.

    If Likud is parallel to an American nativist party, Hamas is parallel to our Christian radicals. Hamas is legitimately elected in Gaza yet people in Gaza are, I think, less radical than the Hamas leadership, much as most Republicans are less radical than the Republican leadership. Gazans, though, utterly do not trust the Israeli government, and I can see little reason they should. So long as Likud is a major part of Israeli politics, there would always be the chance that Likud would come to power and resume the war. In a better world, the USA would use its considerable leverage to restrain Israeli conduct and lobby the UN to intervene. As it is, there seems no political advantage in the USA to doing so and several of the Security Council’s permanent members would probably block action in the UN. So the war goes on.

    Extended account of some of the regional politics from 2009.

  131. 131
    I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:

    @keestadoll:

    I guess what I’m saying is that Hamas knows IDF doesn’t hesitate to target WHEREVER armaments/militants are, so aren’t they continually placing their own citizens at risk?

    War is a bloody, messy, tragic business. War against a vastly stronger adversary, even moreso. Hamas cannot defeat the IDF, but the IDF cannot wipe out Hamas without risking international condemnation and worse (due to the impossibility of doing so without vast numbers of civilian casualties). Expecting Hamas to fight like a first-world military force is unrealistic given the constraints they face. The IDF is responsible for its actions.

    If you believe Wikipedia, Israel has little standing to complain about the use of human shields:

    Prior to 2008-2009 Gaza War[edit]

    The IDF admitted it had used Palestinians as ‘human shields’, in limited capacities; it acknowledged using human shields 1,500 times during the Second Intifada.;[14] the practice subsequently banned by Israel’s High Court of Justice.[14][15] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[14][16] Specifically, while acknowledging and defending the “use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations”, the IDF denied reports of “using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces”, claiming it had already forbidden this practice.[15]

    Amnesty International[17] and Human Rights Watch[18] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B’Tselem said that “for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives”.[19][20] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of “human shields” during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[21]

    Finally, this OpEd is worth a read, it seems to me – http://blogs.timesofisrael.com.....f-revenge/

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.
    (Who hopes the FYWP gods let this through…)

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