Organizing the South

Greetings from Detroit! Lovely day here; 70’s and sunny.

Here’s a very small activist and her dad. Her mom is working at Netroots.

little girl

Back to bidness. Organizing the south was primarily a labor discussion – Fight For Fifteen and UAW representatives on the panel- lots of discussion of Moral Mondays and the UAW organizing effort in Tennessee.

Very passionate people – there was some frustration with the lack of engagement by labor groups and progressive organizations in the south.

organizing south

The panelists seemed to be completely convinced that the following is true-

From MaryBe McMillan, 1st on L in photo:

“The only way we win economic justice in this country is to organize the south”

Great back and forth between panelists on the following –

From Cherie Deseline, 3rd from L in photo:

“The systemic root of exploitation of workers is ownership of bodies, especially black bodies”

From Carol McDonald, 2nd from L in photo:

“Can’t work effectively in the south without anti-racist lens on organizing. Not believable or credible without it”.

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162 replies
  1. 1
    MomSense says:

    Just from the three quotes you shared, that sounds like a powerful panel.

  2. 2
    Elizabelle says:

    Good luck, Kay. Appreciate your keeping us apprised.

  3. 3

    Malaysian airliner apparently shot down over Ukraine. We’ll see who is responsible.

  4. 4
    piratedan says:

    and you would think that with the legacy of coal miners unions that places like West Virginia, Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee would have a foothold… Cripes, these guys should be made to watch Matewan to see if there’s any reason NOT to organize.

  5. 5
    Cassidy says:

    If I can add a suggestion, labor and voting rights activist need to aggressively an gage with the police and fire unions in the South. Typically, those two back each other and have their hands in local politics. You also need to change the phrasing. Cops and firefighters, when talking labor issues, usually mention one another in the same breath. They need to be encouraged to throw their weight behind the teachers as well, bringing them into that protective fold.

  6. 6

    @⚽️ Martin: Malaysian Airlines seems to be plagued with bad luck.

  7. 7
  8. 8
    The Dangerman says:

    Insert an Eight Clap (UCLA thing) here! Also, FWIW, the Judge that ruled the Death Penalty unconstitutional yesterday? Former UCLA football player.

    @⚽️ Martin:

    We’ll see who is responsible.

    This is all kinds of not good. Was this a response to additional sanctions yesterday or just some schmuck fucking up royally? Of course, it could also be just a shitty coincidence on where the plane had a mechanical problem but that would appear to be an infinitesimally small possibility.

  9. 9
    Thor Heyerdahl says:

    @⚽️ Martin: CNN has another Malaysian plane crash to cover 24/7.

  10. 10

    @schrodinger’s cat: If the reports are correct it was hit by a surface to air missile while flying at over 30K feet. That’s not bad luck. Someone fucked up badly.

  11. 11
    gogol's wife says:

    @⚽️ Martin:

    F–ing Putin. This is terrible. 295 innocent people.

    And Putin is responsible, however you slice it.

    ETA: Barring mechanical failure, which seems highly unlikely.

  12. 12
    mdblanche says:

    @⚽️ Martin: Well, that explains the unholy orgasmic moan I heard coming from the direction of Atlanta.

  13. 13

    Ukraine had claimed no more than an hour earlier that a Russian fighter shot down a Ukrainian fighter. This escalated quickly.

  14. 14
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @⚽️ Martin:
    @gogol’s wife:

    Why in the name of all the gods was a passenger airplane full of people routed through an active combat area?

    This goes way beyond tragic. Just horrible.

  15. 15
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    I hate that the Malaysia airlines story is derailing Kay’s wonderful NN thread.

    Any front-pagers around, might we have either a new open thread or a dedicated air disaster thread? Thanks!

    EDIT: Oops, sorry, I missed that Kay had given this an Open Thread tag.

    Never mind.

  16. 16
    mdblanche says:

    @The Dangerman: I’m guessing it’s one schmuck fucking things up royally. Which is why it’s always a bad idea to give schmucks SAMs. Now they get to set the terms and neither side will be able to do much to deescalate things for a while. Between this and the Middle East I can’t say I’m enjoying the 100th anniversary reenactment of the July Crisis.

  17. 17
    piratedan says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: seconded….and Kay’s topic is refreshing to know that there are some people out there looking to make the job easier by helping to focus on what needs to be done. Also too, great suggestion Cassidy, need to make common cause with the folks that are natural allies and work together.

  18. 18
    the Conster says:

    @mdblanche:

    Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?

  19. 19
    Amir Khalid says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    It’s a regularly scheduled flight that goes at 10,000 metres, well above the altitudes where combat aircraft operate. As was pointed out in the thread below, that’s not normally something you mistake for combat aircraft.

  20. 20
    Iowa Old Lady says:

    John McCain is on the air pontificating about war. I’d laugh except at some point it stops being funny.

  21. 21

    @The Dangerman: I would go with schmuck fucking up royally. Even we managed to fuck up that royally when the Vincennes shot down an Iranian airliner in the 80s.

    @SiubhanDuinne: KAL 007 was behind schedule and veered into Soviet airspace in an effort to get back on schedule. Soviets shot that plane down. Pilots have a fair bit of latitude in flight planning and set waypoints for the plane to follow. The autopilot isn’t smart enough to know that a war is taking place along a route and it may not be immediately obvious to the pilot that the route takes them over that region. 777 is a rather new plane, however. I don’t know if the autopilots understand restricted airspace, but I would imagine so given how big a deal it is here in the US. Maybe Malaysian Air Lines didn’t update that information? Don’t know. Even so, like with KAL, that’s not a big enough mistake to fire on.

  22. 22
    mdblanche says:

    @SatanicPanic: You’re John McCain, aren’t you?

  23. 23
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Iowa Old Lady: That train is never late

  24. 24
    lol chikinburd says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: You’d indeed think that disciplined, professional military personnel would never make a mistake like that. However, there was Korean Air Lines 007, with a U.S. congressman on board, shot down by the Soviets; there was that Iran Air flight shot down by the USS Vincennes…it happens, apparently.

  25. 25
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Thanks. True enough, and I wrote my uninformed comment before going back to the thread downstairs.

  26. 26
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    “The systemic root of exploitation of workers is ownership of bodies, especially black bodies”

    Unfortunately, it does indeed boil down to this.

  27. 27
    cleek says:

    weird how planes just keep exploding over Russian airspace.

  28. 28
    MomSense says:

    @Cassidy:

    I guess I am not as familiar with the fire and police unions in the South but up here they tend to be very conservative and not keen on identifying with teachers or other types of unions and union members. I’m not sure why that is. I’ve tried even on a personal level with cops and firefighters I know–and nothing. In fact it was worse than nothing because of what I heard them say.

  29. 29

    @mdblanche: A shoulder-mounted rocket can’t hit a plane at that altitude. It’s either a mobile or fixed anti-air unit, or a fighter plane. A mobile unit would be 2-3 vehicles – one being the radar unit, one being a missile unit. In either case, multiple people would have been involved in the decision.

  30. 30
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @⚽️ Martin:
    @lol chikinburd:

    You’re both right, and you both informed me. Much appreciated.

  31. 31
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @⚽️ Martin: Fucking up happens, but I suspect someone with access to heavy duty superpower grade anti aircraft hardware got trigger happy.

  32. 32
    Amir Khalid says:

    @⚽️ Martin:
    MAS has been flying the 777 for well over a decade, so that series is not new to it. And unless a passenger plane with civilians aboard was clearly being flown by someone trying to crash into some target (unlikely at cruising altitude), I can’t see how to justify shooting it down.

  33. 33
    another Holocene human says:

    @Cassidy: This has been happening in Florida since Rick Scott to the extent the police and fire locals are willing to come on board. They do planning at top level with the state fed but at local level they sometimes have a habit of only turning up when they need something. JMHO.

  34. 34
    raven says:

    Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister, wrote on Facebook that the plane was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher over the country’s east, the Associated Press reports.

  35. 35

    @Amir Khalid: Some flight data is out now. It was cruising level at 33K feet, obviously under autopilot.

  36. 36
    another Holocene human says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Not only as “workers”.

  37. 37
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Shortly after the crash, Igor Strelkov, one of the “separatist” leaders of the “Donetsk People’s Republic” posted on his VKontakte page (like a Russian Facebook) that they’d shot down a Ukrainian AN-26, and said “this is a warning – don’t fly in ‘our skies.'”

    As I pointed out downstairs, the Buk SAM system is mobile and self-propelled, and has a range of 22,000 meters.

  38. 38
    another Holocene human says:

    I hope this link works, #blocbuilders organizing black and brown youth (their words) in Florida to vote and get rid of Scott as part of their push to end SYG.

  39. 39
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    So it sounds possible that some overzealous idiots on the separatist side mistook a passenger jet for a Ukrainian plane.

    ETA: But I’m sure Moscow Bob will be here any minute to tell us that the anti-aircraft system was built in a garage by anti-Nazi Ukrainian grandmothers and certainly not given to the separatists by Russia.

  40. 40
    Cassidy says:

    @MomSense: It’s a strange brew. Cops and firefighters tend to be conservative, ranging from moderate to crazy, but none of them in departments with strong unions can deny that they have an excellent pension plan and protections because of the union. The unions protect everyone even if they aren’t members. The union guys tend to be Democrats. Add to that, a lot of the cops and FF are married to teachers, nurses, gov’t employees as well. And finally, a lot of people in the south who are in jobs that are protected by unions are anti-union.

    All the in mind, when the city or county gov’t tries to make cuts, the police and fire unions are the tip of the spear in keeping the council/ commissioners in check (see current stuff in Memphis). If we can get these strong unions to lend their clout to the teachers and civil service unions, expanding the “we’re all in this together” mentality, it will go a long way to increasing labor solidarity across the state(s). Individuals may be conservative, but the union still handles business in the best interest of labor.

  41. 41
    beltane says:

    Where’s Bob from Portland to tell us how it’s the Ukrainian Nazi’s fault?

  42. 42
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Gin & Tonic: As I pointed out downstairs, how did these “separatists” get their hands on high grade anti-aircraft hardware that one does not purchase at a local gun shop, or find casually parked on the street of some Russian town.

    Someone (I don’t know who, can’t imagine who would be so irresponsible to do so) provided this weapons system to the “separatists”, who would also have to be trained in how to use the system, it’s not a simple matter of pointing it at a target and squeezing a trigger.

  43. 43
    Anoniminous says:

    Organizing the South means facing the fact whites (roughly 70% of the population) will not tolerate equality with blacks (roughly 30% of the population. We see this in the attempts and successes to roll back the gains of the Civil Rights Movement by the white power structure. A result of this is a strong correlation between the Black population in the South and poverty. One result of this is the feedback loop: lack of jobs -> lack of money -> low rate of economic activity -> low rate of local economic investment -> lack of jobs. Thus, in and of itself, Union organizing, as important as it is, is only part of the solution and perhaps not even the most important part.

  44. 44

    From the reported location of the crash 20 miles or so from the Russian border, it almost had to have been shot down by something inside Ukraine. If it was a Russian rocket, it was one deployed pretty far inside Ukraine. It it was a Russian fighter, it too was pretty far inside Ukraine.

    If Ukraine did it, it’s going to change things dramatically. If Ukraine didn’t do it, I don’t see how it doesn’t hang entirely on Russia. Separatists don’t have this kind of firepower.

  45. 45
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    certainly not given to the separatists by Russia.

    I’m going with the grandmothers, myself. Gospodin Romanov is a serious useful idiot, and he’ll be displaying that quality shortly, I’m sure.

  46. 46
    Cervantes says:

    @⚽️ Martin:

    Even we managed to fuck up that royally when the Vincennes shot down an Iranian airliner in the 80s.

    Yes, and not long afterwards, the captain was awarded the Legion of Merit for “outstanding service as commanding officer.”

    (I don’t remember exactly what other decorations were bestowed on the crew after the “incident” but I’m pretty sure there was something for everyone.)

  47. 47
    El Caganer says:

    @Mnemosyne: I dunno – my first thought was that it was the Russian military, not the separatists. All parties are denying like mad. Horrible, whoever did it.

  48. 48
    Origuy says:

    I came here to talk about the airplane, but everyone’s said what I was going to, so I’ll try to steer it back to Kay’s topic. My dad has been a member of the International Brotherhood of Operating Engineers since he got out of the Army after Korea.He’s retired now. He’s proud of the union and went to get his 50 year award a few years ago. The union health benefits paid for my mom’s struggle with emphysema and the pension keeps him in his house. Yet he still votes Republican and watches Fox News. I just don’t get it.

  49. 49
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @⚽️ Martin: Separatists don’t have this kind of firepower.

    They could. Here’s a report from ITAR-TASS from about two weeks ago that they got control of a Buk system.

  50. 50
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mnemosyne: It was a little old lady from Donetsk who has a BUK system parked in the rickety old garage with gardenias planted around it!

  51. 51
    Frivolous says:

    Incredibly cute baby.

  52. 52
    Origuy says:

    @⚽️ Martin:

    Separatists don’t have this kind of firepower.

    Separatists shouldn’t have that kind of firepower. However, Russian military TV reported on June 29 that a 9k37 Buk, which does have that range, fell into the hands of the separatists.

    ETA: And Gin & Tonic beat me to it. Sorry for diverting the topic again.

  53. 53
    Mnemosyne says:

    @El Caganer:

    Even if it was technically the separatists, they didn’t build that anti-aircraft system in a garage in Donetsk using rubber bands and MDF. Somebody in Russia gave it to them.

  54. 54
    piratedan says:

    @⚽️ Martin: yes they do, given to them (The Ukraine, when they were friends) by Putin. They’ve already confirmed that they shot down a Ukrainian aircraft earlier…. they’re (the pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists) busy deleting tweets that they have a working BUK in order to cover their asses, apparently.

  55. 55
    Amir Khalid says:

    @El Caganer:
    Well, of course. This is not going to win whoever did it any new friends or admirers. I’m curious now to see what, if anything, Bob in Portland says about this.

  56. 56
    El Caganer says:

    @Mnemosyne: Or they captured it from the Ukrainians. The one scenario that I don’t think is at all possible is that the Ukrainian military did this – what in the world would they be shooting at?

  57. 57
    Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name) says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Remember the Bay of Pigs? Remember the Gulf of Tonkin? Remember April Glaspie? Yesterday we were told that the rebels couldn’t hit an airliner, that it must have been the Russians.

    So why would Russia shoot down a Malaysian airliner?

    From the thread below.

  58. 58
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    His reaction is exactly what I thought it would be: False flag!

  59. 59
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mnemosyne: Alex Jones is heard from.

  60. 60
    Anoniminous says:

    @Origuy:

    US Labor Movement purposely, earnestly, and continuously purged anyone with any sort of ‘Communist taint.’ The history of the CIO gives the whole thing in a nutshell.

  61. 61
    max says:

    @Cassidy: Cops and firefighters, when talking labor issues, usually mention one another in the same breath. They need to be encouraged to throw their weight behind the teachers as well, bringing them into that protective fold.

    Seconded! The usual sorts have already worked the divide and conquer thing on the private-sector unions and they’re working the same scam on the public sector unions.

    max
    [`I’m from a billionaire-funded foundation and I’m here to help those poor suffering little … what were they again? Oh, darlings. Yes, lovely. So, speaking of efficiency…`]

  62. 62
    mdblanche says:

    @⚽️ Martin: Well that makes things sound even worse.

  63. 63
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I just asked him why the separatist commander publicly took credit for it if it was a false flag operation, so we probably won’t hear from him for a few days. That’s usually what happens when you give him actual facts. Unfortunately, he then re-surfaces making the same claim and you have to present the same facts again. Over and over again.

  64. 64
    Keith G says:

    @Origuy: Have you ever had the chance to fully engage your dad with conversations about what parts of conservative ideas attract him and what part of progressive politics repel him?

    I am quite curious as to what those data points are for people who behave like your dad does.

  65. 65
    Trollhattan says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    Hard it imagine that NATO &/or the US don’t have sufficient reconnaisance resources aimed at the region to know what happened, i.e., who shot what from where. Whether they share the intel either publicly or through channels to the Malaysian government remains to be seen.

    Those poor people.

  66. 66
    cleek says:

    oh, hey. nevermind.

  67. 67
    Amir Khalid says:

    We may need a new thread just for MH17.

  68. 68
    Origuy says:

    @Keith G: Not really. I think some of it is just identifying with the Republican “tribe”. My mother worked for the party and had a patronage job at the License Branch. (This was Indiana; the governor’s party controlled the state auto License Branch (aka DMV) I never really wanted to get a full on discussion. It’s hard to do when you are a visitor at Christmas time.

  69. 69
    Gene108 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I think it has to include Latinos, as they are the “cotton pickers” and in the Southeast their numbers have increased in the last 20 years.

  70. 70
    Mike J says:

    @⚽️ Martin:

    I don’t know if the autopilots understand restricted airspace,

    I found NOTAMs on the FAA site prohibiting flight over Somalia and warning that crews flying over Iran should know where Iran allows them to fly, but nothing about Ukraine.

  71. 71
    Chyron HR says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    We may need a new cable news network just for MH17.

  72. 72
  73. 73
    Mike J says:

    @Mike J: And then I found it:

    DC 4/7667 (A0012/14) – null AIRSPACE SPECIAL NOTICE UKRAINE
    AS WELL AS AIRSPACE IN THE SIMFEROPOL (UKFV) FIR THAT IS OUTSIDE THE
    LATERAL LIMITS OF SFAR 113 AIRSPACE DESCRIBED ABOVE, MUST REVIEW
    CURRENT SECURITY/THREAT INFORMATION AND NOTAMS; COMPLY WITH ALL
    APPLICABLE FAA REGULATIONS, OPERATIONS SPECIFICATIONS, MANAGEMENT
    SPECIFICATIONS, AND LETTERS OF AUTHORIZATION, INCLUDING UPDATING
    B450; AND EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION DUE TO THE CONTINUING POTENTIAL
    FOR INSTABILITY. U.S. OPERATORS MUST REPORT SAFETY AND/OR SECURITY
    INCIDENTS TO THE FAA AT +1 202-267-3333.

    So you’re allowed to operate inside Ukraine, but be careful.

  74. 74
    Trollhattan says:

    @Mike J:

    There is no official closure of Ukraine airspace but Germany’s Lufthansa has decided to divert four flights currently in the air which would overfly east Ukraine. “The safety of our passengers is our top priority,” it said.

    –BBC

  75. 75
    Nick says:

    U
    C
    L
    A
    UCLA FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!

  76. 76
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @the Conster:

    Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?

    Fair warning, I’m stealing that line.

  77. 77
    mdblanche says:

    @Amir Khalid: What has the reaction in Malaysia been to this so far?

    @Chyron HR: I’m pretty sure our current CNN can handle a crashed Malaysian plane. It’s everything else we need a new cable news network for.

  78. 78
    Mike J says:

    @Trollhattan: After a plane was already shot down. So yeah, if I were on one of those planes I’d be glad to hear that, but there was no international agreement to avoid Ukrainian airspace beforehand. Which is what I would expect, since there hadn’t been massive military air operations going on.

  79. 79
    Paul in KY says:

    @Origuy: Have you asked him to explain the cognitive dissonance? ‘Republicans hate unions & union members. You love unions & are a union member, etc. etc.’

    Edit: Saw your response up above.

  80. 80
    muddy says:

    @MomSense: @Origuy: Patriarchy? Manly men doing manly menz job?

  81. 81
    Trollhattan says:

    @Mike J:
    I interpret the official position more or less as “Yeah, it’s a little risky because people are shooting at each other, and we don’t think you’re at risk, but do call if you see anything weird.”

    So now, this.

  82. 82
    mdblanche says:

    Unconfirmed reports that 23 US citizens were on MH17.

  83. 83
    Amir Khalid says:

    @mdblanche:
    It’s not morning yet here, so there has been no reaction from the public. PM Najib Abdul Razak is giving a media conference at KL International Airport in a couple of hours (4am local time, which if memory serves is 4pm Eastern Time). Our new transport minister Liow Tiong-lai is coming back to KL from Beijing, where he was discussing the search for MH370 with his counterpart in China.

  84. 84
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Trollhattan:
    Lufthansa, and Air France, and a few other airlines. Ministries of Transport and equivalent agencies around the world are no doubt directing airlines under their jurisdiction to do the same.

  85. 85
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @muddy: @Origuy: I assume it’s this: “I’m a hardworking guy who made my own way. Republicans stand for people like me. Democrats want to take the money I earned and use it to dole out favors for lazy moochers.”

  86. 86
    mdblanche says:

    @Amir Khalid: Thanks for the info. Malaysian transport minister has to be one of the most thankless jobs in the world. I wasn’t aware the time difference between Malaysia and the US was that large. Now get some sleep. ;)

  87. 87
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Kay, this is great reporting on an important issue. Someone obviously was still coherent enough to send the right woman to NN to keep us informed!

  88. 88
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @FlipYrWhig: …who all happen to be brown or black.

  89. 89
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: And that one hippie.

  90. 90
    raven says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I watched the Muscle Shoals documentary last night and there was this great part where the dude was talking about Wilson Pickett and Duane Allman. He said, “the folks around here got used to the black recording artists being around but the long haired hippies, that was too much”!

  91. 91
    muddy says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I know people who insist they are Republicans because “my family has always been Republican”. Issue by issue they want the Democratic agenda, but they just *know* that Republicans are right, and they vote that way. It’s maddening. Not that it matters much in this state.

    Recently I was at Town Meeting (yes, wrong time of year but the budget keeps getting voted down) and was amusing myself deciding which party the people were in based on their comments, or better yet before their comments. It’s not always easy. But at one point I grew bored because it got super obvious.

    One guy didn’t get the concept of multiplying fractions and wouldn’t sit until we all went through the 3rd grade with him again, an older woman who held forth on why her neighbors don’t bring her dog home instead of calling the cops, and a woman who insisted that the budget needed to be said no to just to express displeasure with the previous town administration. When they went on to the subject of taxes and services, you know where all the idiots fell. They want the roads repaved, and think that the guys who dig out the storm drains ought be doing it. Yes, those 2 guys and the single axle truck and a couple of wheelbarrows will pave the roads. FFS, you voted down the bond for road improvement last year because you didn’t want to pay more taxes.

    Sorry to rant on! These people give me that itchy feeling in the palm of my hand like I want to give someone a good smack. Maybe I should run for moderator next year and be strict about people staying on topic. Crack that whip!

  92. 92
    JoyfulA says:

    @Cassidy: With a Democratic mayor, after decades of effort, the Charleston, SC, firefighters finally got the right to organize. That was only after a sofa warehouse fire killed many of them.

  93. 93
    gene108 says:

    @Cassidy:

    And finally, a lot of people in the south who are in jobs that are protected by unions are anti-union.

    It’s basically the story of the South, since colonial times, when racial superiority was used as an excuse to keep the folks, who didn’t own a plantations and slaves, dirt poor and without any infrastructure to better their lives, so the plantation owners could make more money.

    It’s just a weird sort of tribalism, where they’d rather be a part of the tribe than support policies that would make their lives better. And the wealthy aristocrats of the South are the tribe’s leaders.

    The thinking goes something like this: You may have electricity, indoor plumbing and other modern conveniences, but I’d whoop your butt, if you set one foot on the patch of dirt my shack sits son.

    It’s weird sort of need to bully someone else or believe they can bully someone else, since the system bullies them and when you take away someone to punch down on it creates a lot of confusion about their place in life, because at some level they realize they are basically at the bottom of barrel and cannot stand it.

  94. 94
    Trollhattan says:

    19:28: Flight recorders have been found at the crash site, Konstantin Knyrik, a spokesman for the pro-Russian rebels, has told Interfax news agency. Earlier reports quoted rebels as saying they intended to send the flight recorders to Moscow for checking.
    –BBC

    Welp, there goes that opportunity to learn what happened.

  95. 95
    Trollhattan says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    You’re right, and now it’s official.

    19:35: The director of Eurocontrol, which controls air traffic across Europe, says that Ukrainian airspace has now been closed after reports of the crash. Speaking to Radio 5 Live, Tytgat Luc said there were four aircraft flying in the same area at the same time that the crash occurred, but that they continued their flights.
    -BBC

  96. 96
    Amir Khalid says:

    @mdblanche:
    Back when MAS’ 777s weren’t disappearing into thin air or getting shot down, it was a much easier job. We used to have one Transport Minister whose time was taken up with blithering idiocy, dressing like a clown, and running his own ethnic-based party into the ground.

  97. 97
    Violet says:

    I feel terrible for Malaysia. So awful, especially after the previous disaster.

  98. 98
    Cervantes says:

    @Amir Khalid: Really awful what’s happening (again). Sorry you have to deal with it (again).

    PM Najib Abdul Razak is giving a media conference at KL International Airport in a couple of hours (4am local time, which if memory serves is 4pm Eastern Time).

    Yes, the time difference right now is 12 hours; we’re on Eastern Daylight Time (UTC-4) here on the coast. When we are on Eastern Standard Time (UTC-5, November through early March) the difference is 13 hours.

    Get some sleep if you can.

  99. 99
    the Conster says:

    @Origuy:

    This article breaks it down for you. It’s biological.

    This research consistently finds that conservatism is positively associated with heightened epistemic concerns for order, structure, closure, certainty, consistency, simplicity, and familiarity, as well as existential concerns such as perceptions of danger, sensitivity to threat, and death anxiety.

  100. 100
    Origuy says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I’m sure that plays a part of it. I don’t think race is an issue in my dad’s case. Some of it is the small government thing, I think.

  101. 101
    Chyron HR says:

    @Trollhattan:

    What’s to know? Obviously Nazis shot down a plane full of noble anti-fascists, or possibly vice-versa.

    In any case, the only sane response is to exterminate every man, woman and child Nazi, Naziette and Naziling in Ukraine with Russian helicopter gunships.

  102. 102
    Emma says:

    @Wally Ballou: Oh Lord. One of the great dames of stage and life.

  103. 103
    Roger Moore says:

    @Origuy:

    Some of it is the small government thing, I think.

    Which can be awfully hard to separate from the racist stuff. The key thing behind the takeoff of the small government movement was the need to provide the same government services to everyone equally. People who were happy with governments providing lots of services in the days of Jim Crow became staunch supporters of small government after Brown v. Board of Education. There’s certainly a perception among a lot of small government types that the services they’re most eager to cut are disproportionately benefiting minorities.

  104. 104
    Cassidy says:

    @JoyfulA: That’s a big lessons learned for us. Every recruit class in the country watches the video on that fire.

    @gene108: The root of it is hopelessness, not racism. That’s not to say that the south isn’t steeped in racism, but it’s a byproduct of being born knowing you’ll work until the day you die. The carefree youth of high school is as good as it gets for many southerners.

  105. 105
    Roger Moore says:

    @another Holocene human:

    I hope this link works, #blocbuilders organizing black and brown youth (their words) in Florida to vote and get rid of Scott as part of their push to end SYG.

    Related to SYG, Talking Points Memo is reporting on a couple of studies of the effect of Castle Doctrine and SYG laws. The two studies used different methodology to determine that they had no appreciable effect on overall crime rates, but did boost the homicide rate materially. Unsurprisingly, the increase in homicide rate was mostly among white men, with no appreciable change in the homicide rate by white females or minorities. Nobody could have foreseen!

  106. 106
    Original Lee says:

    @muddy: One thing that helped in my mom’s village was the mayor presenting a very detailed budget for each bond issue and making it available at the library and online. For instance, Main Street needed to be repaved. So he pulled out all of the invoices from the last repaving job (for First Street, which is perpendicular to Main Street), and made a table out of them. Then he took the total and calculated the cost per foot of street, multiplied by the length of street that needed repaving (showing all the math for repaving 2 blocks of downtown). Then he showed the NEW total cost based on the old invoices, added in inflation using 3 different rates (because you know they will argue about how much prices have increased), showed THAT total, and then divided by the number of ratepayers to show a cost per taxpayer. Then he basically said, we can have a bond issue for this, or we can assess everybody x amount to get this done. It has to get done, it has to get paid for, and all I’m doing is giving y’all a choice as to how the money happens. If the bond issue does not pass, this is the amount that comes out of YOUR pockets. Almost every bond issue has passed by about 30 points ever since. Amazing.

  107. 107
    mdblanche says:

    MSNBC just had some commentary on MH17 from I. P. Freely.

  108. 108
    JPL says:

    So I just started streaming MSNBC just got taken. The supposed military official called the reporter a dumb ass.

  109. 109
    Paul in KY says:

    @Amir Khalid: I am so sorry for the country of Malaysia & of course, all the poor souls who perished. I hope we find out exactly what happened here.

  110. 110
    WaterGirl says:

    @Original Lee: Smart.

  111. 111
    Paul in KY says:

    @Origuy: Obviously the smallest government possible is what it takes to run a nation of 300 million in the 21st century.

  112. 112
    Trollhattan says:

    @Chyron HR:
    By Jove, I think you’ve got it!

    Also, too,

    20:23: The Ukrainian Security Service SBU has published on its Youtube account what it says are intercepted conversations between pro-Russian militants in which they say they admit shooting down a civilian plane, BBC Monitoring reports.

    20:31: In the YouTube footage a militant nicknamed “Major” is seen saying it was shot down by “Cossacks from the Chernukhino roadblock”.

    Major goes on to say: “It is definitely a civilian plane… there was a lot of people on board,” BBC Monitoring reports.

    20:27: BBC Monitoring reports more from the conversation between militants allegedly intercepted by the Ukrainian Security Service.

    The conversation starts with Igor Bezler, a key militant, apparently telling a Russian security official by phone that the pro-Russian militants have shot down a plane.

    Ugh.

  113. 113
    Chyron HR says:

    @JPL:

    The supposed military official called the reporter a dumb ass.

    Well, in all fairness, the odds are that he was right.

  114. 114
    Linnaeus says:

    Regarding the question of why someone Origuy’s father might still be a Republican voter even while benefiting from and supporting institutions like labor unions, here are some thoughts based on my experience. These don’t apply to all people equally.

    1. Race. This should not be underestimated as a factor. The GOP is effectively a party of and for white people. Racial animus (towards nonwhites) and racial solidarity (towards other whites) can overcome any feelings of class solidarity with fellow workers.

    2. Gender & family roles. See #1.

    3. Compartmentalization. It’s not unusual for someone to simply separate how they feel about unions, etc. from their other political beliefs. There’s a number of mechanisms people do to justify this, such as one that has already been mentioned here: the idea that “I earned that” or “I’m entitled to that because…” and “they” (whoever that might be) are not. Or, perhaps, people don’t feel especially strongly about their union or other community institution that they are a part of – they just accept that it’s there and deal with it.

    4. Salience. This is related to #3. Some people find certain issues to be things they feel about more strongly than others and vote accordingly. This is not uncommonly due #1 and #2.

  115. 115
    mdblanche says:

    And with the world now suitably distracted by MH17, Israel is about to launch a ground invasion of Gaza.

    I’m now half-expecting an announcement that one of the MH17 passengers was named Franz F. Hapsburg IV.

  116. 116
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Trollhattan: Man, they’ve been really busy in Langley this morning framing those innocent Russian “separatists” haven’t they?

    I’d love to be running the donut and espresso (or expresso, per Weird Al’s video) stand at Langley right now, doing land office business as those guys and gals must be working up a hell of an appetite and thirst from all that framing they’re doing.

  117. 117
    raven says:

    @mdblanche: Right, because when the world wasn’t distracted they didn’t do what they wanted to.

  118. 118
    mdblanche says:

    @Chyron HR: I caught the whole exchange. He was right.

  119. 119
    Linnaeus says:

    @the Conster:

    I need to read up more on that. Chris Mooney’s been writing a lot about that topic, but I’m not sure his work has really gotten the examination that it should.

    I’ll admit that I tend to be skeptical of such arguments because there is too much of a history of essentializing human differences on the basis of biology. That, combined with some of the abuses of psychology and psychiatry in the 20th century, means we should be careful about these kinds of claims. I’m not saying that Mooney is wrong or that there’s not interesting work being done in that area, but this kind of thing has gone in some very ugly directions in the past.

  120. 120
    Botsplainer says:

    @gene108:

    t’s just a weird sort of tribalism, where they’d rather be a part of the tribe than support policies that would make their lives better. And the wealthy aristocrats of the South are the tribe’s leaders.

    The thinking goes something like this: You may have electricity, indoor plumbing and other modern conveniences, but I’d whoop your butt, if you set one foot on the patch of dirt my shack sits son.

    It’s weird sort of need to bully someone else or believe they can bully someone else, since the system bullies them and when you take away someone to punch down on it creates a lot of confusion about their place in life, because at some level they realize they are basically at the bottom of barrel and cannot stand it.

    Some did work to end it.

    http://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/621

    ARGUING FOR MULTI-RACIAL labor meetings under Jim Crow in 1912, a daring partisan tells Southern workers they need to get over their attitudes of being the cream of the human race as they were fast becoming known as the “White Chinese.”

    An editorial in a labor movement paper argues workers should support a strike of prostitutes against their brothel with a headline: “Go to the aid of our sisters in struggle, and see that they get it!”

    Another stand is offered for class unity in the face of white supremacist notions: “There are no niggers, greasers, or white trash in the union, only men!” Labor struggles indeed.

    While this may not be music to the politically trained ear, similar awkward but illuminating moments can be found in our historical memory — and, quiet as it’s kept, in our own contemporary workplaces and neighborhoods. Engagement by aspiring radical activists with real folks is frequently distinguished by macabre humor on all sides.

    Justifiably uncomfortable, the presence of humor is often the location of many unequal power relations. I can suggest no greater pleasure to the reader for taking on this intellectual conundrum, of insurgent commitment and laughs, than the spectacle that is Covington Hall’s Labor Struggles in the Deep South in displaying many truths about the working class and how it struggles.

    Interesting guy. He was a Mississippian, born of a Presbyterian minister in 1871.

  121. 121
    Trollhattan says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    In fairness, if you suffered through all those False Flagging 202 lectures and assignments, this is like your coming-out party.

  122. 122
    Ninedragonspot says:

    @Trollhattan: here is the video released by Ukrainian Security Services.

  123. 123
    raven says:

    @Ninedragonspot: Oh, that was helpful.

  124. 124
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Linnaeus: I second. I’m also weary of studies that so readily confirm my own biases.

  125. 125
    Trollhattan says:

    Taking a page out of Bibi’s book?

    Breaking News: A pro-Russia rebel leader in east Ukraine says they are ready to call a ceasefire for several days to facilitate an investigation into the crash, according to reports

  126. 126
    mdblanche says:

    @raven: Yeah, it’s probably just a coincidence but yesterday Israel was at least paying lip service to cease-fire negotiations. Today they’re escalating and guaranteeing weeks if not months of slaughter. They were only pretending to care about the rest of the world but now they’re not even pretending.

  127. 127
    Botsplainer says:

    @Linnaeus:

    My maternal grandfather was a union member, and a bigot on an institutional level, not personal. He was a 4 time Roosevelt voter (probably Truman as well) that turned Republican with Ike and never looked back.

    It was complicated – he was truly a product of his geography and time. He could come up with the most hateful stuff about black folks in general – racist, not empathetic, would spout every stereotypical slur imaginable, if he didn’t know the person, which was the key.

    See, the bigotry was all learned from his childhood – he knew he was supposed to hate, because it had been drilled into him, over and over again. Meanwhile, his personality was pretty generous and open, and he never met an enemy on a personal level. He’d talk to anybody, would do anything for them. If he worked with a black guy, his co-worker was great – they’d share meals, pal around together at work (he’d say “Oh, he’s different. Not like one of ‘them’.”) There was a very old black man who lived down the road that my mother remembers as “Uncle Levi” from when she was a child. Levi had been born a slave in Kentucky and was maybe 10 years old when freed after the 13th Amendment percolated through Kentucky. He was well into his 90s when my mother remembered him, but she always remembered that every election day my grandfather would go pick Levi up to go vote (I don’t think they voted the same way very often, as my grandfather would have been kind of an unreconstructed Southern Democrat back then, and at levi’s age, he’d have been a Republican, but that was OK with my grandfather, who laughed about it later), and then would bring him to the house to share a meal.

    Like I said – complicated.

  128. 128
    El Caganer says:

    @Ninedragonspot: Something’s really squirrelly about this. I’m now inclined to think (but freely admit that I’m no expert) that the separatists shot the plane down, since no other explanation makes much sense (false-flag stuff sounds like bullshit). At the same time, I’d seen some items indicating that the SBU was completely compromised by Russian intelligence, so I wouldn’t be inclined to put much stock in their video. It’s a tragedy for the people who lost their lives and their loved ones, but I don’t see it making any difference in what’s going on on the ground in Ukraine; despite what John McCain may think, we’re not going to be sending in the Marines.

  129. 129
  130. 130
    Svensker says:

    @SiubhanDuinne

    : Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?

    Fair warning, I’m stealing that line.

    Can’t. I already done stole it.

  131. 131
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @El Caganer: Oh, John McCain is permanently in the “You really should keep your pie hole shut, asshole” mode ever since he picked that stupid Snowbilly for his running mate in ’08.

  132. 132
    Linnaeus says:

    @Botsplainer:

    Oh, it’s definitely complicated. I just offered up those thoughts based on what I’ve observed in others, including members of my own family. Your maternal grandfather sounds a lot like my paternal grandfather, although my grandfather never voted Republican.

  133. 133
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Trollhattan:

    I am medium-convinced that this was a fuckup by separatists who were infatuated with their new toy and mistook the airliner for a Ukrainian plane. A completely horrible and disastrous fuckup with gigantic consequences, but probably at base a fuckup.

  134. 134
    rikyrah says:

    Organizing the South means facing the fact whites (roughly 70% of the population) will not tolerate equality with blacks (roughly 30% of the population. We see this in the attempts and successes to roll back the gains of the Civil Rights Movement by the white power structure.

    Called the ‘ at least I’m not a Nigger’ syndrome that whole lotta folks down South suffer from.

  135. 135

    @Gin & Tonic: That’s a different transcript, but similar in content. The translation “Is there anything left of the weapon?” I think is wrong. I think it should be “Are there any weapons?” Makes more sense given the reply as well.

  136. 136
    JPL says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: She rubbed off on him.

  137. 137
    Ninedragonspot says:

    @raven: Hmm, you seem nice.

  138. 138

    CNN:

    The United States has concluded the Malaysian airline was shot down, a senior U.S. official told CNN’s Barbara Starr. One radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down Thursday, according to the official. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from.

  139. 139

    @Ninedragonspot: Raven is nice. Not a lot of proficiency in Russian around here though.

  140. 140
    gogol's wife says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    They left out all the obscenities. “‘Are there many dead?’ ‘Пиздец!'”

    Точно.

  141. 141
    gogol's wife says:

    The guys on that recording say the Cossacks shot it down. This is going to get interesting.

  142. 142
    gogol's wife says:

    @⚽️ Martin:

    Yes, he says, Are there any weapons?

  143. 143
    Mnemosyne says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    The guys on that recording say the Cossacks shot it down. This is going to get interesting.

    What would “Cossacks” mean in the modern world? Obviously, I know the history, but I’m not sure what they would be referring to.

  144. 144
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @gogol’s wife: Haven’t had time to listen yet, just saw that Kyiv Post was offering one version. I’m sure there are plenty of obscenities. I’m sure that somebody is already at the bottom of a well with his throat cut, too.

  145. 145
    gogol's wife says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The Cossacks never really went away, but they’ve been in great resurgence in recent years. I have a student who’s writing a thesis on this. There are a bunch of different Cossack groups — one of which went to the Sochi Olympics and horse-whipped members of P.Riot. There have been Cossack groups going into Ukraine from the beginning of this, and some of them I assume were already based there.

  146. 146
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Mnemosyne: In this context, free-floating pro-Russian mercenaries.

  147. 147
    gogol's wife says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    My answer is in moderation. I’ll try again: The Cossacks never really went away, but they’ve been in great resurgence in recent years. I have a student who’s writing a thesis on this. There are a bunch of different Cossack groups — one of which went to the Sochi Olympics and horse-whipped members of P.Riot. There have been Cossack groups going into Ukraine from the beginning of this, and some of them I assume were already based there.

  148. 148
    Calouste says:

    Dutch news reports that at least 154 of those on board MH17 were Dutch nationals.

  149. 149
    gogol's wife says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    When I went back to the transcript, I saw that they made an attempt to include some of them, but I don’t think “Holy s–t” is quite good enough for “Pizdets.” But the very first guy says “yo-moyo” when they tell him they shot down a plane.

  150. 150
    Trollhattan says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    What would “Cossacks” mean in the modern world? Obviously, I know the history, but I’m not sure what they would be referring to. Recall the whip-weilding bastards that beat up Pussy Riot during the Olympics? They were specifically so-identified. Seemed pretty 19th century to me, but what do I know?

    As to whether the shoot-down was the fvck-up fairy, I sincerely hope it was just that and not done with intent.

  151. 151
    Trollhattan says:

    Moderated on accounta that name, I’ll wager.

    @Mnemosyne:

    What would “Cossacks” mean in the modern world? Obviously, I know the history, but I’m not sure what they would be referring to.

    Recall the whip-wielding bastards that beat up P*ssy Riot during the Olympics? They were specifically so-identified. Seemed pretty 19th century to me, but what do I know?

    As to whether the shoot-down was the fvck-up fairy, I sincerely hope it was just that and not done with intent.

  152. 152
    Botsplainer says:

    @Linnaeus:

    Your maternal grandfather sounds a lot like my paternal grandfather, although my grandfather never voted Republican.

    It was always funny. He was a lifetime union guy, Roosevelt saved him with the CCC, and he’d whimper piteously about the perfidy of Democrats. I always said “and how may times did you vote for Roosevelt?”

    He’d mumble “4” under his breath every time.

  153. 153
    gene108 says:

    @Cassidy:

    The root of it is hopelessness, not racism.

    Did not say it was racism. Just a need to justify – usually through some expression of machismo – that you are better than someone, even if the behavior you are expressing is a net loss.

    I think this speaks to the “Rolling Coal” modification on people’s trucks (it’s just not a Southern thing, I’ve seen a couple in NJ with the mod), where you do something that has no net benefit to you in terms of improving a truck’s performance or helping you financially, just so you can literally blow smoke in someone’s face, you think is wussier than you.

    Maybe the machismo is born out of hopelessness. I do not know. There’s a just a stubborn Southern bit of pride in accepting their lot in life, rather than looking for way to make it better and being resistant to outsiders, who show them ways to make it better.

  154. 154
    Botsplainer says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    What would “Cossacks” mean in the modern world? Obviously, I know the history, but I’m not sure what they would be referring to.

    In the post-Soviet sense, right now it means “pro-Russian not-Jews”.

    I think I preferred the USSR to today’s Russia. There was some cassocked Orthodox monk that recently had some incredibly Czarist pronouncement to make about GLBT folks, and it got me to thinking something along the lines of “now I know why Lenin and Stalin felt like they had to crush the church with official repression”.

    They’re flexing their muscles again, and acting like assholes now that they’re no longer under occupation.

  155. 155
    gogol's wife says:

    @Botsplainer:

    You are oversimplifying.

  156. 156
    Mnemosyne says:

    @gene108:

    It’s the Southern honor culture. Saving face and looking tough are more important than wussy things like fair treatment or collective action. And it’s not surprising that this kind of honor culture is apparently most prevalent in the poorer ranks of the white South — what else do they really have?

  157. 157
    David Koch says:

    @Calouste:

    Dutch news reports that at least 154 of those on board MH17 were Dutch nationals.

    Ooops. Oil conglomerate Dutch Royal Shell is gonna have a difficult time spinning that one.

  158. 158
    David Koch says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    The guys on that recording say the Cossacks shot it down.

    I had no idea Daily Kos was so militant.

  159. 159
    Botsplainer says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    I wound up seeing too much damage spread into my beloved, most secularized and fun Antiochian Orthodox Church via konvertsy who’d found a ready home within the OCA. Asshole fundamentalists who wanted to feel sophisticated and vaguely ethnic started moving up in there.

    You think those Syrians and Lebs would have tolerated a rank dingleberry like Paffhausen and elevated him to Metropolitan?

  160. 160
    Cassidy says:

    @gene108: Well, when you look at through that lens, a young man or woman starts working and realizes that this is as good as it gets, it’s easy to see why these arbitrary and imaginary things have been created. When you have nothing, you gotta try and have something.

  161. 161
    James E. Powell says:

    @MomSense:

    I’ve tried even on a personal level with cops and firefighters I know–and nothing. In fact it was worse than nothing because of what I heard them say.

    I’ve had the same experience. Part of it is the residual from the 60s – so much of our current politics is still happening along battle-lines drawn in the 60s.

    But mostly I think it’s that law enforcement and firefighters’ organizations prefer to stand apart and present themselves as non-political. When they want something from the general public or taxpayers, they figure they are better off by themselves than they would be saddled with allies that might blur their message. I can see that point.

  162. 162
    J R in WV says:

    @gene108:

    It is not true that modifications involved in “rolling coal” provide no benefit. It lessens back pressure in the exhaust system, as does installing a fatter pipe which is usually part of the modification; both of these mods increase horsepower. Remocal of the ceramic carbon particulate filter from the exhaust system also greatly reduces exhaust gas back pressure, which in turn increases horsepower.

    At the same time, they up the amount of fuel being injected into each cylinder at top-dead-center, which also increases horsepower. Along with additional soot from a richer fuel-air mixture.

    I’m not trying to claim that there isn’t a “piss on you” prideful contest there, as in all road rage situations. But to repeatedly say that those modifications to a diesel engine do not provide a benefit to the driver’s vehicle is just flat wrong!

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