Question: could a robot that looks like David Byrne dance the robot better than David Byrne dancing the robot?
Discuss.
Not sure whether this is the absolute best example but I love the song.
by Tim F| 149 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads
Question: could a robot that looks like David Byrne dance the robot better than David Byrne dancing the robot?
Discuss.
Not sure whether this is the absolute best example but I love the song.
Comments are closed.
Richard Bottoms
I just spent a quarter hour telling the Georgia NAACP they are a bunch of useless idiots doing nothing while Georgia attempts for the third time to railroad a group of black people who had the temerity to get out the vote:
http://www.vice.com/read/the-quitman-10-2-and-voter-suppression-in-modern-georgia-715
In world that wasn’t run by fools, their new president Cornell William Brooks and everyone in his senior leadership would be standing in this woman’s yard calling for the impeachment of every official remotely tied to this horror show. That sound you hear is steam coming out of my ears.
Anoniminous
This ain’t no party, this ain’t no disco, this ain’t no fooling around. No time for dancing, or lovey dovey.
I ain’t got time for that now.
WaterGirl
@Richard Bottoms:
In what way did you do that? Did they listen? Did they respond? Did they tell you they aren’t going to do anything about this?
Edit: I know it’s not cool to post the same comment on more than one thread, but you might consider reposting your comment on Kay’s “what’s going on here?” thread where this is being discussed.
piratedan
@Richard Bottoms: and as far as I understand it, no one has found anything that indicates that these people broke the law, they simply organized and registered voters, period. THIS is what the State of Georgia is spending their taxpayer money on?
Amir Khalid
My own favourite robot dancer: 6 foot 7 English footballer Peter Crouch.
AdamK
Maybe David Byrne already is a robot. In which case, your question should be whether we can design and build an upgraded model. Which I would encourage trying, even if it’s unlikely to succeed.
Alexandra
Lucky enough to have gone to see them when the Stop Making Sense tour came to town in 1984.
Remember the beatbox opening as clear as yesterday. No internet, no VHS tapes, no ads or trailers, so everything at the gig was a surprise, seen as new. Even the big suit. Loved it. Tina Weymouth a huge hero, too.
Yeah, starting to get a little old.
Bob In Portland
Reports that the Ukrainian “anti-terror forces” are surrounded and taking heavy casualties. Around Sverdlovsk, Krasno-Partisansk and Izvarino. Only about 400 out of 800 soldiers still left. Running out of water. No food.
I couldn’t find any reference in the NY Times.
MomSense
I actually didn’t see any robot in that clip. There was jogging in place, exaggerated jogging in place, some scarecrow moves, more jogging, a sort of mild convulsing, running, and then some last jogging. I do love Talking Heads even without the robot!
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
Hail the conquering (pro-)Russians!
ranchandsyrup
*Makes chopping motion on arm*
Same as it ever was.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Oh, please, this is exactly what you wanted. I’m surprised you’re not dancing a jig because those neo-Nazi Ukrainian forces are being slaughtered just the way you wanted them to be.
This is the result you wanted. Don’t play coy now and pretend to be upset.
RSA
Some early work on robot locomotion used tethered, one-legged hopping robots. I bet they could give David Byrne a run for his money.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: I don’t sense that he’s pretending to be upset. I’m quite sure he is delighted, as he did not post at all when the Ukrainian forces were making substantial gains in the last week or two.
D58826
OT but much discussed in previous threads over the past few weeks. Leslie Gelb has a long piece about the Middle East over on daily Beast. in a nutshell
Now if our political leaders could only understand those last two sentences, then maybe we can stop tear into each other over who lost …… (fill in the country). There are still grounds for debate about what we should do to prepare for the aftermath (and he has some suggestions) but there is very little if anything that any American president can do.
NotMax
Obligatory Shields and Yarnell link.
Richard Bottoms
@WaterGirl: @WaterGirl: The NAACP’s problem is their ridiculous system of “non-interference” with local chapters, which basically means each chapter is run by some person with a day job who holds their monthly meetings of practically no one.
Local chapters exist to collect enough money to put on the Image Awards and not much else.
Based on my conversation they have never hard of Google, data collection, investigation or running a national group with muscle. Thurgood Marshall must be fucking spinning in his grave.
Roger Moore
@Bob In Baghdad:
I’m sure the infidels’ throats are being cut as we speak.
Roger Moore
@D58826:
Including the ultra-Orthodox rabbis in Israel, though it’s considered gauche to mention it.
Amir Khalid
@D58826:
A great part of what we’re seeing in the Middle East is the consequences of generations of interference by outside — i.e. Western — powers that wanted to affect matters to suit themselves. And when I say Western, I don’t exclude Russia.) As painful as these upheavals are to watch, I’m with you in hoping that the West, especially America, can resist the temptation to interfere again. Better for the West to let things play out, offering what humanitarian assistance is possible, than to jump in thinking it knows everything.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
You’re only saying that because you learned Nazism when you learned to speak Ukrainian. I bet you were raised to say “Heil Hitler” at breakfast every morning, weren’t you? Weren’t you?!?!
/BiP
Eric U.
@Roger Moore: this is the society that the Republicans want to bring to the U.S., starting with Hobby Lobby
D58826
@Amir Khalid: That basically summarizes what Gelb’s article was all about. The structure that was built by the Ottomans in the 1500’s and poached by the west in the 19th and 20th centuries is finally breaking down. Not much we can do about it other than trying to contain any jihadist threat that might spill over to western countries in the form of suicide attacks, etc.
Fared Zacharias wrote pretty much the same thing a couple of weeks ago. The local populations have to solve their own problems. It took many bloody centuries, including WWI and WWII for Europe to sort out its various rivalries. They had the advantage of not having to do it in the internet and social media age where every atrocity is sent on its way around the world at the speed of light.
Anoniminous
@Amir Khalid:
In a word: oil.
If the Arabs didn’t have any the West, especially America, would let them slaughter each other. (See: the Congo.) The West, especially America, needs the slippery hydrocarbons lest our transportation sector collapse. Intervention is couched in terms of Humanitarianism for domestic propaganda reasons but the goal is to keep the tankers moving.
When the Arabs run out of oil then they will be “allowed” to work things out.
Violet
Two different neighbors’ cats were mauled and killed by dogs two days ago. We think it’s pit bulls because we’ve seen them loose in the neighborhood. We’re furious and sad. Plus worried about little kids or people who get up early to walk or run.
Not Adding Much to the Community
No, that is a ~great~ version. They blow the roof off that joint. “Does anybody have any questions?”
D58826
@Anoniminous: Oil is certainly a big part of it but the Middle East has been a battle ground for centuries. Just think Alexander the Great, the Greeks and Persians, the Romans and just about everybody, the Egyptians and dozens of empires that no longer exist outside of our high school history books. I suspect that this continual warfare accounts for the chaotic mixing of religious and ethnic groups that are large enough to fight with their neighbors but not large enough to form a viable nation states.
Punchy
Accurafied and simplified that for ya.
Trollhattan
@Alexandra:
Curse you for seeing that show I only was able to watch in the movie theater! [shakes fist] Also, too, completely agree, the performances still sparkle today, and I can’t say that about a lot of bands from the era.
Roger Moore
@Anoniminous:
Or when the West switches sufficiently to renewable energy that oil no longer dominates the conversation to the extent it does today. It’s one more reason to move aggressively to reduce demand for fossil fuels. If we had spent the $3 trillion our recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq cost us on renewable energy instead, we’d be most of the way there.
schrodinger's cat
@D58826: Plus they are on the crossroads between Europe and Asia. Its all in the geography.
Ramiah Ariya
My first English novel, “The Exorcism of Sathish Kumar, MBA” (published by Westland Books, India), is available in stores in India this week. It is also available as an ebook from Amazon.
The novel is set in Chennai, India – where an American hedge fund firm, PH Capital, is secretly developing a computer virus named Blaze, similar to Stuxnet and Flame, to manipulate certain markets. But secrets of their plot is sent to WikiLeaks. One major part of the novel’s plot is the interplay between sorcery (you read that right) and the corporate world. I cannot reveal much more – but the novel includes drones in Chennai!
It is a mix of satire, sci-fi, fantasy and thriller.
Trollhattan
@D58826:
A pervasive rejection of modernity, i.e., same as today’s Republican Party. It does not bode well for the entire region.
mai naem
@Richard Bottoms: I would pass that along to the NAACP moral Monday people. It might embarrass the Georgia chapter into doing something. Pretty pathetic that the Georgia chapter which had to have been one of the strongest ones in the country during the Civil Rights era, sitting on their butts.
Face
This is both funny and sad. Something I’m guessing the inventor never, ever, ever envisioned.
JPL
@Richard Bottoms: This is a comment from Kay’s thread
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion says:
I just emailed the DOJ to draw their attention to this, and ask what they’re going to do about it. The email for DOJ, including AG Holder’s office, is [email protected]. Are we going to be content with whining about this on a blog, or are we going to make some noise?
Richard Bottoms
@JPL: I have no idea who Kay is, and I’d say calling the NAACP is making noise.
Anoniminous
@D58826:
Been a battleground for millennia. One of the biggest chariot battles ever was between the Egyptians and Hittites in 1274 BCE outside the city of Kadesh in what is now Syria.
Roger Moore
@Richard Bottoms:
She’s the front pager who wrote the post immediately before this one talking about that story.
Paul in KY
@AdamK: If we can make a model that will stop being a dick & reunite The Heads, that would be a great accomplishment.
wat
@Richard Bottoms: wat
Paul in KY
@Alexandra: Sure wish I had seen them back then. Great memories you have.
Paul in KY
@Ramiah Ariya: Wonderful accomplishment! Kudos to you!
pamelabrown53
Haven’t read any of the comments but, NO, a robot could not do the robot dance better than David Byrne because while Byrne can isolate different parts of his body, like a robot, he does it gracefully-sans jerkiness.
some guy
Israeli naval shells rain down on kids playing at the beach. Four dead. Mohammed Baker, 9; Ahed Baker, 10; Zakaria Baker, 10; and Mohammed Baker, 11.
I guess it’s getting harder and harder for the IDF to find 2 and 3 year olds to bomb, so they are moving up the chain of command to the 9 and 10 year olds.
JPL
@Ramiah Ariya: Congrats!
wasabi gasp
Boogie your way through the horror of hump day with the bestest dance music video this world has ever known. Enjoy!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60a6LpB4zZ8
markzz
You should check out the Umphreys Mcgee mashup of this and Marley they play live as “Life During Exodus”.
MattR
Looks like Deion Sanders’s charter school, Prime Prep Academy, is being shut down by the Texas Education Agency
Trollhattan
@some guy:
They made “the mistake” of doing this in front of a crapton of reporters.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/07/16/dispatch-israeli-strike-kills-four-children-at-a-gaza-beach/
Which, I suppose, means it’s time to get rid of the reporters.
some guy
Shockingly, the Times actually has the story on their website, filled, of course, with their usual rationalizations and justifications for the murderers of these 4 kids, and for Bibi the babykiller’s other bombing runs.
. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/visceral-accounts-of-gaza-attack-that-killed-4-boys.html
MattF
More Bill Kristol wrongness:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43598_Weekly_Standards_Great_Idea_of_the_Day-_Go_Bold_With_Gold!
He seems to have become a goldbug. It’s hard to exaggerate how wrong this is, the degree to which it has been disproved by history and logic. But, as ever, Bill is Bill.
ET
Don’t know if anyone out there is a Weird Al fan (going to assume a fair number actually know who he is) but he has struck again! I had seen that he did Happy as Tacky but the song Word Crimes (in place of Blurred Lines) is GREAT. The words are funny and clever and the video is great. Watch it if you need a laugh.
some guy
@Trollhattan:
the Times story has a link to the Media24 video stills which shows the kids running away from the first shell, only to be targeted by the second shell.
Bravest, most moral babykillers in the world.
beltane
@some guy: I am livid, absolutely livid. The next time these NYT apologists for Israel open their pie holes to express concern for human rights violations elsewhere in the world they need to be told to STFU. The faux liberals with their weasel words piss me off much more than the out and out racists of the Israeli right.
Mandalay
@Amir Khalid:
He’s witty as well: Asked what he would be if he wasn’t a footballer, Peter Crouch replied “a virgin”.
daverave
Saw the Heads at the cramped Paradise Rock Club on Comm Ave in Boston back in 1978 right before I moved to California for good, due to post-Blizzard of ’78 winter weariness. Byrne is a personal hero who had the foresight to get out of the architecture business grind.
Amir Khalid
@ET:
Of course people here know Weird Al. Some of us are fans going back 30 years.
Mandalay
@beltane:
Yep, me too. Speaking of the Mustache of Understanding:
Not only is it all the fault of the Palestinians, but his sentence doesn’t even make sense. To think that vile fucker gets actually paid to spew this drivel….
Gator90
@some guy: The Palestinians of Gaza are governed by an entity that actively, affirmatively wants Palestinians to die. Israel, it pains me to say, is more than happy to oblige. Which is not to say the former excuses the latter. There is absolutely no excuse for the murderous terrorism Israel is practicing. I may be a subtle, nuanced shill for apartheid, but I cannot stomach this.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore: Prezactly.
Why can’t ultra-orthodox males serve in the Israeli Army? They might see women!
Ultra-orthodox, Wahhabists, Fundigelicals. All basically the same. All scum.
Trollhattan
@Amir Khalid:
IIRC his first recording was “My Bologna” recorded in his dorm shower (for the echo), self-accompanied avec accordian. Dr. Demento launched him on his radio show.
Not liking Wierd Al would be unthinkable, like hating Spongebob.
PurpleGirl
@Amir Khalid: I saw Weird Al live at the Beacon Theater back in the late 1980s. Because N was handicapped we ended up in seats way down front (like row 4) and near the speakers. Our ears rang all the way home after the concert. IIRC, Dr. Demento was also on the bill.
Trollhattan
@MattF:
(Note to self: sell all gold, stat!)
Bloody Billy–screw that guy.
Gin & Tonic
@Trollhattan: Well, what Bill is recommending isn’t to invest in gold (which, arguably, can be part of a diversified strategy [I don’t have that much, but I’m up 15% on the year so far]) but to return to the gold standard for currency valuation, which is lunacy.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: @Gin & Tonic: I want people to sit down and talk and negotiate a peace sometime in the future with rights for the eastern Ukrainians guaranteed within a united Ukraine. We know that that will eventually have to be the outcome. Why not do it now? Well, the only reason not to negotiate now is that someone wants the country to be in a permanent state of war. Now who would that be?
You keep telling me what I want. Your arguments are inside your head. Let me tell you what I want. I want guys like this to go home and learn how not to hate. (Is the BBC close enough to American for you?)
Why is that so hard to understand? Gin, maybe you can translate a Ukrainian report on the day’s doings in Ukraine and share it with us. Or maybe a fiery speech where Poroshenko rants about destroying the rebels.
Trollhattan
@Gin & Tonic:
Christ, that’s even worse than hoarding the stuff. Is he an inflation-bug too?
the Conster
@Villago Delenda Est:
So true, and so sick of it. Fundamentalists are going to kill us all – feature, not a bug.
Trollhattan
@Bob In Portland: Hodor!
Bob In Portland
@Roger Moore: I think you’re confusing wars. The women of the Orthodox persuasion in eastern Ukraine were blessing Muslim Chechens with holy water fighting on their side as they went into battle. You might have missed that report.
Mandalay
@Villago Delenda Est:
Not only can they serve, but Netanyahu has had enough, and decided that the draft-dodging shit slime shall serve. Like a broken clock, even he is right now and again.
Their rationalization for not serving is worth a smirk:
Roger Moore
@Mandalay:
Sure it makes sense; it’s rationalization of collective punishment. It’s blowing off the idea of Israel taking just an proportionate steps to stop the rocket attacks, like commando raids against rocket launching sites, in favor of attacks against civilian targets to change Palestinian hearts and minds.
Belafon
@ET: Among all the great voices that appear on Adventure Time, Weird Al is the voice of Banana Man.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mandalay: Sounds like the Mittlings serving the country by campaigning for their dad, instead of taking an IED in the gut in the streets of Baghdad.
Bob In Portland
@Trollhattan: That’s so witty of you. Why didn’t you think of that before?
Villago Delenda Est
@the Conster: Should have tossed Opus Dei into the mix, to be as ecumenical as possible.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: HODOR!
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore
Good luck with that strategy, Bibi, you terrorist fuck.
ranchandsyrup
My wife’s post on our shared juice cleanse journey.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Well, the only reason not to negotiate now is that someone wants the country to be in a permanent state of war. Now who would that be?
Putin.
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
But mass bombing campaigns were proven to destroy civilian morale in WWII. Just look at how the British surrendered after the Battle of Britain, the Germans surrendered after the Strategic Bombing Campaign, and the Japanese surrendered after the firebombing of Tokyo. Also, too, Linebacker II won the Vietnam war for the USA.
SatanicPanic
@MattR: Wow, Deion comes off like a major league tool
Bob In Portland
@Anoniminous: Anon, could it possibly mean that the US went into Iraq NOT BECAUSE Saddam had WMDs? What about Afghanistan? Weren’t we waiting in Afghanistan for a decade because Osama might come back across the frontier?
So we must have supported the coup in Ukraine and the fascists there because FREEDOM, right? It couldn’t have anything to do with the Russian pipelines running across Ukraine, right?
Anon, it seems like war in the Middle East is about oil, but not so in other places, is that the correct view of things? So when the US supported overthrowing Sukarno in Indonesia in favor of Suharto, it didn’t have anything to do with oil there, did it? Overthrowing Sukarno wasn’t about oil, it was about FREEDOM, except for those half million or so who died in that coup.
Chyron HR
@Bob In Portland:
I’m guessing it made more sense in the original Russian.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Why would Putin want a permanent war in Ukraine? In order to destabilize Russia? Very clever. That must be why we keep overthrowing governments in Latin America. Because we like refugees streaming over our borders. You must explain this strategy in more detail.
Trollhattan
@Bob In Portland: Hodor!xHodor!=Hodor!!!
Belafon
@Chyron HR: At least BiP didn’t compare it to persecuting Carbon Dioxide, which is as bad as Hitler.
Bob In Portland
@Chyron HR: Chyron, are you saying that the US should divert some of the military we have stationed in the 150 or so countries around the world to the Ukraine after we overthrew the elected government and installed the fascists and oligarchs? To what purpose? Wouldn’t that be like conquering it twice?
Corner Stone
@some guy: We here were all reliably informed yesterday that both sides “suck”, presumably in some capacity equally.
So the next time a gunner in the Palestinian Navy uses pre-determined grid coordinates to shell civilians playing futbol, we can nod solemnly and agree, that both sides do, in fact, suck.
Trollhattan
@Belafon: True. Also, too, “Carbon dioxide is actually a benefit to the world, and so were the Jews.” Uhhhhhhh…mind=blown.
Bob In Portland
@Belafon: I note as the lies generated by our media crumble in the light of day that commenters here at Balloon Juice are more apt to talk gibberish. Go Team!!!! I guess it’s sort of like talking truth to power, talking gibberish to truth. I hope it makes you feel better. People aren’t feeling better in Ukraine. Civil wars are bad things, and they aren’t ameliorated by killing people.
MattR
@SatanicPanic: I’ve been following that story for a few years and it is some pretty egregious behavior, even by charter school standards. Grifters grifting from other grifters.
Corner Stone
Good God
That child is tiny. Don’t click on that link if you need to see straight for the next several minutes.
beltane
@Corner Stone: Well, from a military standpoint the Palestinians suck. Maybe if some superpower offered them unlimited financial and tactical support we could get more of a “both sides do it” thing going. Right now, all we’re seeing is a first rate military power using their high-tech weaponry to exterminate the residents of what amounts to a large, open-air prison. I wonder if the IDF takes selfies when they murder little children. Our media would just be oozing with praise for their technological savvy.
toberdog
@Alexandra: Of all the tours that have ever been on the road during my lifetime that is the one I most wish I would have seen.
Porco Rosso
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd1IMmsOc6g
How does Peter Garrett fit in here–dance moves wise?
Corner Stone
@MattR: Yeah, Prime is a perfect example of the “Born Again” Grifter.
He isn’t “like” a tool, he is 100% the tool. But he knows what he’s about, so he’s going to be just fine.
Corner Stone
@beltane: I’m not sure what you mean. I recently saw a briefing with a Four Star General in the Palestinian National Army where he gave a very succinct tactical breakdown of the days clashes.
I don’t have a link but in summary he said, “We threw rocks with great precision. The IDF then SatNav’d our location and returned laser guided munitions to defeat our four fastest child runners. Oh well, there’s always tomorrow.”
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Civil wars are bad things, particularly when they are egged on from outside. Here’s video and geolocation based on the screencaps showing rockets being fired from Russia into Ukraine. It’s a liveblog, so look at the 1939 GMT and 1928 GMT updates. So, I don’t know, Bob, why *does* Putin want permanent war there, or at least long-term instability?
Without Russian armaments, and without Russian citizens providing the leadership (who are the leaders of that “Donetsk People’s Republic” or whatever it calls itself? Not Ukrainian citizens) there’d be almost no instability.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: And they’d all be speaking Ukrainian, just like you, right?
Trollhattan
Aaaand, just like that.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28334219
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: I don’t have access to the fifty years of Radio Free Europe broadcasts into Ukraine. So sorry.
Hal
Speaking of robots, did anyone see Rick Scott on Rachel Maddow last night. Steve Kornacki was guest hosting and played a clip of Scott being asked by reporters about on duty police officers being coerced to attend a rally for him. Scott looked like a bug eyed floating skull who just kept robotically repeating “he is “proud” that 40 sheriffs have endorsed him and that he is “appreciative” of the support from law enforcement.”
It was hilarious and terrifying.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/16/anderson-cooper-rick-scott_n_5591004.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics
Mike E
@Trollhattan: Spongebob does grate at times, truth be told, but love him, and his ocean pals, I do. Other sins against nature:
“I hate The Wizard of Oz!”
“Stevie Wonder/Al Green/Marvin Gaye does nothing for me.”
“The new ‘Wonka’ movie is much better than the original.”
Amir Khalid
@Trollhattan:
A humanitarian ceasefire, for all of five hours on Thursday. Then they go back to bombing kids on the beach. How kind of them.
Iowa Old Lady
@Hal: I saw that. Kornacki played a bunch of people repeating the same non-answer like a broken record.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Follow the link I provided. It’s in English.
I note you don’t address the issue of Russian rockets being fired from Russian territory into Ukraine. Or the Russian citizens leading the “separatists.”
Yatsuno
@Mike E:
I…actually do. But there are reasons!
wasabi gasp
@Porco Rosso: That dude’s got some serious moves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCkMm0uMWyM
⚽️ Martin
California is coming through again:
If ‘dysfunctional’ becomes the national standard, that eliminate the death penalty everywhere.
We’ll see if this one continues to stand.
Mike J
@MattF: I would love for Republicans to run with their goldbuggery. They ant to allow South African miners to set the upper limit on American growth. Brilliant!
Mike E
@Yatsuno: You are dead to me!!
Not really. Puppies and kitties are your get out of jail card here :-)
Villago Delenda Est
@Gin & Tonic: This is because Gospodin Romanov here doesn’t want to note who the actual aggressors are, because that does not fit in well with the “Ukrainians are Nazis!” storyline.
Trollhattan
@⚽️ Martin:
Very interesting. A further detail.
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Federal-judge-rules-California-s-death-penalty-5625926.php
Note also, too, that Carney is a Bush appointee. Yeah, that Bush.
Villago Delenda Est
Our friends at Noisemax strike again:
Buchanan: US No Longer One Nation
Translation: the damn mud people actually have a say now!
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: I don’t address Russian rockets because I have no reason to believe it’s either true or false. You know, the internet and truthiness, especially through the lens of any government. It may very well be true, or Russia may have supplied weapons for the rebels to shoot down planes. It was alleged by the Ukrainian government that the plane was too high for the rebels to shoot it down, but Kiev has been notoriously inaccurate regarding what is happening in the civil war. Actually, all sides have been inaccurate, which is what usually happens in war.
I have always thought that the Vietnam War would have ended sooner if the Russians and Chinese hadn’t aided North Vietnam. Or it would have taken longer. What do you think? I’m sure the five billion in military aid the US is sending the Kiev government is very helpful in continuing the war.
I suspect in the years to come the world will be apprised of all the terrible things both sides have done in the name of racial purity vs. self-determination by the Russians in the east.
If the leaders in Kiev think that they can win a civil war by killing enough Russian-speaking civilians, then they are on a fool’s errand. You should understand the precarious economic situation of Ukraine which will not get any better for the inhabitants when the IMF austerity starts taking effect. It’s time to mend fences and start negotiating. Or do you think that Ukrainians will pitch together to pay off their oligarchs’ bills when their salaries and pensions are cut in half.
beltane
@Villago Delenda Est: Back in 1992 Buchanan said there was a holy war in the country, meaning we were not really one country.
The Golux
Anyone noticed that it’s approaching five hours since the last front page post?
The Dish, this ain’t.
(Ducks to avoid sundry projectiles)
Trollhattan
@The Golux:
Well, duh, it’s not green.
Also, too, zero Madonna.
Amir Khalid
@The Golux:
Well, the World Cup is over, so there are no more football threads from Randinho. And John Cole is off to rehab, so there’s no one to crack the whip and keep the front pagers productive. It’s sad, but that’s just how it is.
raven
@The Golux: Don’t be a dick, we gotta transition goin on.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: You know, the internet and truthiness, especially through the lens of any government.
Thanks for that chuckle, Bob. You’re a real laff riot today. You unblinkingly quote RT and ITAR-Tass as if their bulletins were handed down on stone tablets, and the minute you’re shown something else, with actual, independently-checkable geolocation info, it’s all “hmm, truthiness, who knows the actual facts.”
raven
@Amir Khalid: You are so polite!
SatanicPanic
@The Golux: John should have added some FPers before splitting. I know, TBogg, but I’m sure he’s got lots of other things going on
Belafon
Maybe people could post interesting comments about things that are going on the some of the FPers could promote them, kind of like Kay’s talking about rikrah’s comment.
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
You’re referring to what people in Vietnam call the American War, aren’t you? Me, I reckon that if the French and the Americans hadn’t been there either, there might not have been a war there at all.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: “The actual aggressors…”
Who were the actual aggressors in Afghanistan? In Iraq? In Libya? Was the US an aggressor in Chile, or were we standing on the sidelines neutrally when Pinochet took over? The last, Chile, is probably the best parallel example to Ukraine. No boots on the ground, except for the CIA, which were helping Pinochet with the seating arrangements in the soccer stadia, and financing strikes there, but we don’t count them.
You think that overthrowing the government in Ukraine was done without any American aid? Really? Just like Chile, right? Or the generals in Argentina, right? Please don’t make me go through the litany again.
Yes or no, did the US help to overthrow the elected government in Ukraine?
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Amir, you’re agreeing with me without knowing it.
Corner Stone
@Amir Khalid:
Cole has been pretty much the absentee landlord for some while now, with periodic, “How is the BS legal!” blurbs thrown in.
And with DougJ going to jail, and B Crack on vacay, there’s just not that many rents left to feed us po chilluns.
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
Maybe. Do you think there would be fighting in Ukraine today without the Russian encouragement?
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
Except perhaps for the Chinese invasion.
WaterGirl
@SatanicPanic: How about cutting Cole some slack? He asked for ideas about bloggers in his post on monday night – things take time to work out, and it sounds like today is the day he was going in for surgery, so he might have a couple other things on his mind.
Like raven said, this is a transition period. How about we give folks a chance to figure it out before we start complaining too much?
WaterGirl
@Belafon: I like that idea!
Also we have tons of interesting folks here. There was one open thread a couple months ago where BGinChi happened to comment very early on. He posed an interesting question asking for suggestions for possible books for his class, and a very interesting thread ensued.
WaterGirl
@Corner Stone: Tom Levenson also warned us of a busy period coming up for him. I’m sure we’ll get a good pace going again in less than a week.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Not true. Can you provide a link to ITAR-Tass?
But if I read something in, say, Russia Today, and there is no corresponding story in the American or European press, I have nothing to compare it to. That’s why I mentioned the lack of coverage regarding the most recent fighting in eastern Ukraine. Someone at the NY Times et al determined that we shouldn’t know about what’s happening. That’s the easiest way to see that our media is constricted by something other than, say, space. I read Russia Today, but there isn’t very much coverage in there either.
I’ve lived through a lot of American wars, both with and without American troops on the ground, and I have found that a lot of the underlying reasons for our involvement around the world is not revealed in the MSM. I’m sure that that’s the same in all media across the globe. (The BBC seems to be a little slow in their coverage of pedophilia in high places, for example.) After all, the town cryer wasn’t an investigative reporter.
So we know that the US cares about Ukraine at least as far as punishing Russia for its involvement there. We know that Russia wants a compliant Ukraine that will not steal its natural gas or blow up its pipelines. What does the US want in Ukraine? Freedom? By overthrowing an elected government?
I find it fascinating how much psychoanalysis of Putin goes on in the western media. It’s not quite as severe as the psychoanalysis of Saddam, Osama, Khadafy and other bad men from our past. It’s much like anything that happens in the US is something caused by a mental disorder in Obama’s brain, as seen by the seers at, say Fox News. But in this case it’s the Balloon Juicers and their sources who want to explain Russian actions as a psychological aberration, as if they (or he) can’t make rational decisions about their interests in Ukraine.
I think you would get a greater understanding about what’s going on in Ukraine if you rubbed your lobes together and tried to figure out the US’ goals in that neck of the woods.
Iraq was oil. Iran was oil. Afghanistan, if you were paying attention to pre-9/11, was about a pipeline across it and Pakistan to the Indian Ocean. Libya. Was that about oil? Or FREEDOM? You might want to look at all of those countries to get an idea of what’s in store for Ukraine now that the US is on its side.
So what is Ukraine about? It doesn’t seem like there’s enough oil and natural gas in the ground to make that a goal in itself for either Russia or the US. But I bet if you think really, really hard you will be able to figure out where the resources are and where the users are, and maybe figure out how US foreign policy, which seems to have some unexplained connection to petroleum and its sale, is about.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Yes or no, did the US help to overthrow the elected government in Ukraine?
No. The elected President and a few of his cronies fled, in the dead of night, based on a domestically-born protest movement. 90% of the legislative body stayed put, as did most executive agency heads and nearly all of the judiciary and all diplomatic staff abroad. Under any scenario it’s hard to call that “overthrowing the government.” Subsequently, in case you weren’t following the news, a Presidential election was held.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Do you think that eastern Ukraine would be alienated from Kiev if the US hadn’t helped overthrow the elected government that was mostly elected by eastern Ukrainians and Crimeans? The independence movement in eastern Ukraine happened as a reaction to the coup in Kiev. You may not recognize the fascist elements in the current Ukrainian government, but the people in eastern Ukraine do.
Do you think that there would have been a Vietnam War if the Americans and French hadn’t been there?
You’ll have a hard time saying that Russia has no business in Ukraine. It used to be part of Russia and then the Soviet Union. There are many ethnic Russians and a majority of people in Ukraine speak Russian. Eastern Ukraine does most of its trading with Russia. There was never a thousand-foot wall separating the two.
So how much is Russia’s interference, aka, concerns, aka national interests in Ukraine justified versus America’s? What does the US want? Is America there for FREEDOM but overthrows an elected government? Is America for the western Ukrainian fascists (If you haven’t you should read Christopher Simpson’s BLOWBACK; I believe it’s in PDF form on the net.), and there is a long, documented history of US involvement with the Nazi collaborators there, because…? Is America involved in Ukraine in order to stir up things with Russia?
Ask yourself what the US’ strategic interests are in Ukraine. When you understand our strategic interests then you’ll begin to understand Russia’s. They aren’t the same.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Well, Gin, if you want to deny seventy years of history, then so be it.
Was the US involved in the coup in Argentina when the generals took over and started disappearing people? Was the US involved in Chile? How about Guatemala? Iran in the fifties? Iraq multiple times? Is the US involved in Syria now? How about Nicaragua? How about Vietnam? How about Indonesia in the sixties? If you answer them truthfully then you realize your dreamy delusions about Ukraine are just that.
tybee
i note that BiP ignores any soviet interference over the past 80 years or so in the region he so desperately wants to become soviet yet again.
curious, ain’t it? nah, not really.
Amir Khalid
@Bob In Portland:
Here goes: The Soviet Union no longer exists. Ukraine is not part of Russia anymore; it is a sovereign nation whose affairs Russia has no right to interfere in.
You keep saying that the US interfered in Ukrainian affairs (without offering evidence, I note). Assuming for the sake of argument that it has, how does that justify more foreign interference in Ukraine by Russia?
You, an American, object to what you claim is self-interested American interference in Ukraine; yet you argue for similarly self-interested Russian interference there.
The Golux
@raven: I guess my tongue was insufficiently planted in my cheek.
Plantsmantx
@piratedan:
One woman is charged with the crime of carrying her legless father’s absentee ballot to his mailbox.
J R in WV
@Ramiah Ariya:
Congratulations! Just finishing such a work is reason to be proud. Being published is wonderful!
WaterGirl
@Plantsmantx: The world has gone so far off the deep end that I can’t even tell whether that’s serious or if you’re making that up.
Matt McIrvin
@Belafon: Weird Al also played “President Stuntcastin” and “SuperMagic PowerMan” on The Aquabats! Super Show!
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: Amir, read BLOWBACK by Christopher Simpson. I can’t read the book for you. Read Carl Oglesby’s TREATY OF FORT HUNT. The US, first by military intelligence and then by the CIA, worked with the Ukrainian fascist collaborators from the end of WWII until they died. The US used fascists on their Radio Free Europe Ukrainian broadcasts from the fifties on. The US supported a guerrilla war in Ukraine against the government well into the fifties. The US imported fascist Ukrainian war criminals into the US through programs such as Crusade For Freedom. They did not import these people because we didn’t have enough fascists in the US.
Perhaps you know nothing about the many programs the CIA, State Department et al have to find and cultivate local politicians in various countries overseas. The fellow who was President of Georgia when they attacked North Ossetia back in 2008 was a graduate of NED. Don’t know what it stands for? Look it up.
I’m afraid that you are woefully ignorant of what our country does overseas. You have two choices. You can remain ignorant. I won’t mention your other choice because you won’t take it.
JustRuss
I saw Talking Heads in the late 80s. Fantastic show. I’ll bet Byrne lost 5 pounds during the set, no wonder why he was so thin.
Bob In Portland
@tybee: First, tybee, you show your hand by presuming what I want. I want peace. I want the countries to get along with each other in that region and not be pawns. If you think you are clever or incisive by telling me what I want you are only tricking yourself.
Yes, the Soviet Union interfered in the region over the last 80 years. The Soviet Union no longer exists. And yes, Russia is aiding the people in eastern Ukraine.
There’s not going to be much movement here until you people read up on the US’ long history of support for Ukrainian fascists. If you want to base your opinions on what the NY Times told you that this is a good war, that this is about freedom, then you will be surprised and disappointed just like you were in Iraq, Afghanistan et al.
I mentioned yesterday that apparently the Ukie army has had heavy losses in the area along the Russian border. We get no reporting of that. How come? Not necessary to actually know what’s going on there? There was a Malaysian airliner shot down today. Apparently, it’s time for another Gulf of Tonkin. The Ukies are throwing up more false flags than swastikas these days.
Yeah, maybe not Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, Syria or Chile or Argentina or Vietnam or the rest, but by god this is a just war because Putin is a bad man. And god is on our side on this one. Really.
Bob In Portland
@Amir Khalid: So here goes. Most people in Ukraine speak Russian. The Russian speakers were the ones who elected Yanukovich. The Ukrainian fascists are the ones who, in their first business, banned Russian as an official language. Okay, they backed down on it, but if someone tells you they were going to take away your citizenship status and then changed their minds, it’s not like everything is hunky dory now.
Large swaths of Ukraine were part of Russia and only became part of Ukraine by Soviet administrative acts a few decades ago. It was done, no doubt, in order to put enough Russians in Ukraine so that there would be a regional government friendly to the Soviet Union.
That’s all fallen apart. Most Juicers here don’t believe the US had anything to do with the coup or even recognize that there was a coup. We’ve been over this many times. I’ve printed links. There is a history of US involvement with fascists in Ukraine going back to 1945. If Gin & Tonic weren’t so coy I’m sure he could tell you about it. If you don’t think the US in involved I cannot turn on the light for you.
Just one more thing. If Russia were merely trying to reconquer Ukraine, it would have done so. If Russia wanted to retake eastern Ukraine it could have done it in days. If Russia just wanted to defeat the Ukie army in eastern Ukraine it could have done it in minutes. What Russia wants is for the people in eastern Ukraine to survive the attacks of the Kiev coup government until they come to the table. They want their pipelines across the Ukraine to remain working, and they would be destroyed as soon as the Russian military made a move. So what we have is the US driving Ukraine to conduct a civil war against the Russians in the hope that Russia will retaliate and thus give Kiev the go to destroy Russian pipelines to Europe. Russia is walking a tightrope, not wanting to abandon ethnic Russians and not wanting the Kiev to destroy its gas connection to Europe, which is what the US wants.
Yes, gas and oil again.
And one final thing for you, Amir. To complain about Russian interference in Ukraine after seventy years of American interference in every corner of the globe is pure chutzpah. I don’t know if you are unintentionally ironic or willfully ignorant.
History is wasted on you if you don’t read.