Since the NRA has captured a sufficient number of legislators to block any meaningful gun safety reforms, it appears we’ll have to rely on private corporations to dial back the crazy just a little. Target issued a statement today on “open carry” in its stores. An excerpt:
As you’ve likely seen in the media, there has been a debate about whether guests in communities that permit “open carry” should be allowed to bring firearms into Target stores. Our approach has always been to follow local laws, and of course, we will continue to do so. But starting today we will also respectfully request that guests not bring firearms to Target – even in communities where it is permitted by law.
[snip]This is a complicated issue, but it boils down to a simple belief: Bringing firearms to Target creates an environment that is at odds with the family-friendly shopping and work experience we strive to create.
This will make the retailer a “target” of ammosexuals, who aren’t content to stroke their long, hard muzzles in the privacy of their own homes but want to make sure you and your spouse, siblings, children, aunties, uncles, grannies, etc., see what an impressive prosthesis they’ve purchased. But it’s good news. Kudos to Target.
Please feel free to discuss gun nuts or any other topic.
Mustang Bobby
I am sure there is already a Twitter meme from the ammosexuals about doing a little “Target practice.” Oh ha ha.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
Took them a while to jump on the wagon, but they finally did it, about time.
I will never understand the assholery and/or sheer pants-wetting paranoia necessary to bring one to wear a long gun into a store aisle to buy some fucking cheap clothes and itinerary.
pat
Open thread, right?
I posted something on the Hobby Lobby thread asking why MEN who are potential FATHERS are not in the streets demanding effective birth control for their wives and girl friends.
Everyone seems to think that the ladies can get pregnant all on their little lonesome.
srv
schrodinger's cat
Speaking of loons, can Juicers from Maine tell me what exactly is happening with Gov. LePage. I used to know many Republicans when Iived in Maine, I swear to God they were not that crazy then (about 10 years ago or so)
⚽️ Martin
Welcome to America.
Seriously, if you see someone with a gun, not obviously a police officer, call 911. It’s your right to do so.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@srv:
Welp, time to throw my hands up and find a wall to bash my head into for the rest of the day. Not even lunch time and I’m already thinking even less about the state of American politics than ever.
AliceBlue
I don’t know how to do the link thing-y, but apparently the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993–the law that the five Justices relied on in the Hobby Lobby case-was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1997. City of Boerne vs. Flores. Anthony Kennedy wrote the majority opinion.
amk
@srv:
Benen
your concern duly noted.
The Moar You Know
If you walk into any store I happen to be in with a rifle, I’m going to assume you’re there to murder everyone you can and act accordingly.
Belafon
If you see someone in the store with a gun, tell them where the condom aisle is.
Violet
@⚽️ Martin: and then the 911 tapes are released with your name on and phone number on them and suddenly you’re the subject of harassment.
Eric U.
@pat: this is the sort of thing that has always made me wonder about my fellow males, seems like procreation is one of those things that is important enough to require planning. However, I have recently become aware that some men have an outlandishly strong desire to father children as an expression of manliness and power. ( Just as long as they don’t have to take care of the kids or support them.) This group seems to coincide pretty well with the people that think that large, smoke belching pickups and ammosexuality also are manifestations of power and manliness.
Elizabelle
Good for Target. Your credit card info may be at risk, but maybe less your person.
japa21
This is weasel language. We respectfully request… IOW, we ask you not to, but we really won’t stop you. Don’t most open and concealed carry states allow for businesses to prohibit carry into their establishments?
Since Illinois went to concealed carry, I am seeing a lot of those signs prohibiting guns on all sorts of establishments.
⚽️ Martin
@Violet: Bring it. I’m not going to give in to terrorists. That’s the only reason these guys open-carry. The Texas Open Carry Chili’s incident makes that clear enough. And I’m in California, and the police will arrest you for this shit. We have a very different attitude regarding the 2nd amendment here.
Brian R.
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
Well, then, you must not be a guy with an extremely small dick.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, duh. Sashaying around with a firearm is an act of aggression, and acts of aggression are not well received. We are profoundly sorry that you have small dicks, but we cannot allow you to display your death-penii in our store, because a sensible precaution in such a situation would be to have armed guards all over the place, and this does indeed have a chilling effect on the average shopper. If you microdicks don’t get this, well, too motherfucking bad, assholes.
hells littlest angel
Not in our stores? No, more like, not in our stores, please. That’s like an engraved invitation to these shit-heads. What is Target going to do when they show up, have security throw them out?
The Dangerman
We currently have some serious nuts that are blocking the border patrol in Murrieta (SoCal) from bringing buses of illegal aliens into the Border Patrol Center for processing. While we are on topic of nuts, I’d give my right one if a Border Patrol higher up said, OK, you won’t let us do our jobs, we are moving the border patrol jobs OUT of Murrieta. Don’t know how much of an economic impact that would make, but these assholes need to be taught a severe lesson.
Villago Delenda Est
@Eric U.:
One of the objections to birth control is it gets in the way of the display, via lots of rugrats, of how macho the male is. Look at all these dwees…they’re a physical demonstration of what a stud I am! You can’t doubt my sexuality, can you, pencil neck?
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon: They don’t use condoms. Condoms stop the flow of their seed which needs to be planted in order to sprout kids to show what studs they are.
Betty Cracker
@japa21: It is weasel language, but I don’t really blame Target for that; it’s understandable that they wouldn’t want to provoke a showdown with armed assholes who have already displayed poor judgment. As to your question, I’m no lawyer, but I would think that yes, companies have the right to regulate armed entry into their private property.
WaterGirl
Interesting. Earlier this week I had read that a Target manager had called the police (or some such thing) on moms with babies and strollers who were peacefully protesting open carry at Target.
Eric U.
@hells littlest angel: I can’t imagine Target asking their hourly employees to ask these nutcases to leave. I think ammosexuals are mostly walmart shoppers anyway
Villago Delenda Est
@srv: It’s bullshit. They’re calling old people on land lines. There are a lot of people who are not old enough to remember when the shitty grade Z movie star slept through his second term.
Belafon
@Villago Delenda Est: I was attempting to joke about them with their guns. Obviously I failed.
C.V. Danes
If Target were closely held, then perhaps the owners could tie this to their religious beliefs. But whatever, good for them on making this stand.
pat
@Eric U.:
Well that explains a lot. Bet they vote republican too.
Omnes Omnibus
@japa21: Actually, the weasel words are necessary if any jurisdiction doesn’t permit business to forbid weapons. In areas that allow a business to forbid, they are doing so. In areas that don’t, they are asking nicely.
Belafon
@AliceBlue: The wikipedia entry is definitely interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Boerne_v._Flores. An excerpt:
It would be great if a lawyer could actually read the opinion and see what it says.
Villago Delenda Est
@AliceBlue: You expect the five asshole Roman Catholic justices to be intellectually honest or consistent?
WaterGirl
@japa21: I am seeing those, too. Just last week saw the gun with a circle and a line through it at the yoga place and the dermatologist.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: If they are making such an assertion (that is, not allowing private property owners to establish their own policy on open carry on their property), they are, in effect, committing a taking against private property rights that are supposed to be sacred in the minds of wingtards.
Well, it’s another example of four legs good, two legs better.
beergoggles
Didn’t Target boot Moms Demand Action from their premises when they did a stroller gathering after the guntards did their open carry jaunt into the store?
Yeah fuck Target again.
WaterGirl
@hells littlest angel: If you can have signs up that say “No shirt, no shoes, no service” why can’t Target say “No guns”.
scav
@WaterGirl: Well, beyond the timing and scale issues, theirs isn’t really a principled position taken over guns, it’s one decided more on the basis of market demographics, brand image and expected return. In cases where women with babies are interfering with sales or PR they’d likely be hustled off just as politely. Still, it could be a feather indicating where the mass of public opinion is.
Patricia Kayden
@srv: Where is that poll from? The Weekly Standard? I would need to see the racial/political breakdown of respondents to take it seriously. I must be living in a blue state la la land but I cannot imagine that there are a significant portion of the population who would rank President Obama as the worst President ever — especially after we went through 8 long years of Bush the Younger. Amazing. Did the poll detail what President Obama has done which makes him the worst President ever?
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: Reagan did a lot of damage while sleeping through his second term.
⚽️ Martin
@The Dangerman: I’m not too worried about them. These guys haven’t ramped up yet, and there are a lot more immigration reform supporters here willing to get out there.
MomSense
@schrodinger’s cat:
Asshole governor from Maine is asshole. Republicans lost their minds in 2009. This is no longer the party of Bill Cohen or Margaret Chase Smith.
Eric U.
someone dropped his gun at the local walmart and it went off, injuring the parking lot pavement. So at least nobody got hurt. The police shut down the parking lot for 2 hours to investigate. That must have cut into walmart’s profits that day. It could easily have led to injuries or even fatalities. Judging from news stories, there are somewhere around 50 such incidents in the U.S. weekly. This is the sort of thing that I have always been worried about. I’m a lot less worried about mass shootings. The legal encouragement to have people carry their guns around with them seems destined to increase this accident rate. Stupid people with dangerous weapons, what could go wrong?
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon: These guys are like all wingtards…unable to laugh at themselves. The reaction would probably be to violate every known rule of firearm safety and point the fucking thing at you for daring to note how tiny their dicks are.
WaterGirl
never mind.
Glocksman
@Betty Cracker:
It depends upon the state in question.
Generally, ‘no firearms allowed’ signs mean that the only thing the store can do initially is ask you to leave if they know (I’m a believer in ‘concealed means concealed carry) that you’re carrying.
If you refuse, then it becomes trespassing and the cops can be called.
Of course there are some premises where the act of carrying a gun concealed or open is a crime, such as hospitals, court buildings, etc.
Interestingly enough, several states have prohibited employers from firing employees who have firearms in their car.
They can prohibit you from carrying, but they can’t do a thing if you leave it in the car during working hours.
Someguy
@⚽️ Martin: Seriously, if you see someone with a gun, not obviously a police officer, call 911. It’s your right to do so.
Indeed. With a little luck you can goad the cops into shooting somebody who is dangerous or otherwise probably shouldn’t be swimming in the gene pool. They could be a terrawrist, you know.
Villago Delenda Est
The RFRA was passed in reaction to Fat Tony declaring that some religious beliefs are trumped by his problems with their sacraments.
Betty Cracker
@Patricia Kayden: I took a quick look at the poll, and IIRC, something like 47% said Obama was the worst president. Not too surprising since that’s close to the percentage of Americans who describe themselves as Republicans or conservatives. Of course they think Obama is the devil; Fox News tells them so 24/7. The Dems / liberals probably split their votes among GWB, Reagan and Nixon.
Ash Can
@Belafon: If I see someone in a store (or restaurant or bank or whatever) with a gun, and they’re not a uniformed or otherwise identifiable law enforcement professional, I’m getting the sweet holy fucking hell out of there. Then, once I’m a safe distance away, I’ll call or otherwise inform the management why I left abruptly and won’t be returning to their establishment anytime in the foreseeable future.
Bulworth
[wingnut]BUT moar gunz is totally family-friendly keep everyone SAFER!!!!!!111[/wingnut]
Citizen Alan
@Belafon:
City of Boerne struck down the RFRA to the extent that it purported to limit state laws that might infringe religious freedom. Congress can legislatively limit its own powers in that area, but it cannot force states to do more than the 14th Amendment requires. Boerne involved a Texas state zoning restriction.
Eric U.
@Betty Cracker: well, Dems have kinda forgotten Reagan, and they split their votes between Nixon and Bush the lesser. I think I would have to say that Nixon and GWB were worse than Reagan, but I’m persuadable. Nixon doesn’t get enough credit for the open criminality of his administration, I guess I would have to go with him.
JPL
@AliceBlue: There were no lady parts discussed in that suit.
Glocksman
@scav:
True.
I’d be more inclined to call it a principled stand if it were Dick’s (heh) Sporting Goods, Gander Mountain, or Cabela’s doing the same thing.
The open carry assholes probably normally never go to Target anyway.
Omnes Omnibus
@AliceBlue: @Belafon: Flores basically says that RFRA does not apply to the states.
scav
Yah know, maybe all we really need is a form of birth control that is a lot of necessarily reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllyyyyyyy teeny guns going it alone against the invading hoards of aliens spilling over the border and attempting to implant anchor babies. Throw in a really teeny lawn chairs and molecular flag tattoos and it might become an inassailable right.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Which, in essence, nullified exactly what the RFRA was trying to address.
Betty Cracker
@Eric U.: Nixon was openly criminal, but I’d argue Reagan did more long-term damage by firmly planting “the government is the enemy” meme in the heads of the gullible and demonstrating to subsequent generations of wingnut pols that it was possible to get away with being a spendthrift and a deficit scold.
Villago Delenda Est
@scav: Needs hoverrounds.
Belafon
@Citizen Alan:
@Omnes:
Thanks.
Belafon
@Villago Delenda Est: Yet, somehow, left the law in tact so they could use it against the US government.
Berial
I think this guy has a pretty good idea on how the public should respond to the open carry ‘demonstrations’.
He basically suggests that you put down what ever you were doing and leave. Don’t pay for meals, don’t let your haircut continue, simply leave as fast as possible. The carry people want attention, give it to them, by leaving the area.
FlyingToaster
@WaterGirl:
@beergoggles:
Fortunately, the cops weren’t called. But Target does have a (seemingly nationwide) “No Protests Around US” policy.
The moms should not carry signs, just wear the same t-shirts (no words, just a slash through a silhouetted AK) and shop. A hundred at a time, or so, as a flash mob. As soon as they encounter some jackass with a firearm, text the others and abandon their shopping and walk out en masse. Call the store from the car and let them know why they walked out.
In Massachusetts, you’d better be wearing a uniform if you’re carrying a firearm into a retail establishment.
beltane
@Berial: Very good idea. Businesses can either cater to open-carry weirdos or they can cater to customers. Their choice.
scav
@Glocksman: Well, a lot of gun shows don’t allow loaded carry for similar reasons, aka we don’t want to have to pay in cash or publicity for the consequences of inevitable whoops moments. lifted from here
Belafon
@scav: I think every business ought to have that posted in their window.
JPL
The only shopping that I’ve done since the guns every where law went into effect yesterday, was to Publix and Pike’s nursery. I need a few items from home depot but that’s going to wait until another day. I assume that if someone is carrying, it would be home depot.
Personally I would support only open carry. I want to know when I could be in danger.
⚽️ Martin
@Belafon: How can anyone tell if it’s loaded or not? The assumption when handling a gun is to assume every gun is loaded. The assumption for everyone around a gun is the same – assume it’s loaded.
chopper
@Berial:
that’s basically what i do already. i see a gun, i high-tail it out of there. anybody who is crazy enough to open-carry a loaded firearm into a fucking target is precisely the sort of guy i don’t want to be around. it’s natures way of saying ‘beware’.
what i will do is further go to the manager on the way out and let them know that i just left an entire cart full of shit i was totes going to buy behind because of some gun nut.
schrodinger's cat
Meanwhile in the “liberal” NYT, there is a magazine article fluffing the latest GOP rebranding effort, written by Sam Tanenhaus. Same toxic methanol in new fancy bottle. There is also a Vogue type posed photo but with conservative “thinkers” instead of actors.
Betty Cracker
@JPL:
That’s a fair point. In FL, there are more than a million concealed carry permits, IIRC. I’m sure I’m passing armed people in the grocery store or whatnot all the time; I just don’t know it. It might be preferable to know it so I could take appropriate action, i.e., leave.
shelley
With the US out of the World Cup, who are you rooting for now?
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@schrodinger’s cat:
I’ve said this before, it really does feel like the GOP just outright owns this entire fucking country at this point and that there’s nothing we can really do about it anymore.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@shelley:
Costa Rica.
Underdogs ahoy.
SatanicPanic
@srv: 33% not that much more than 27%
scav
@shelley: is monogamy required? oh dear, I have really been doing it wrong.
schrodinger's cat
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: I am not willing to give up that easily. Their movement is doomed and in death throes, they are desperate, and the constant rebranding means no one wants their shitty product.
Patrick
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
People can vote. A lot of people didn’t vote in 2010, allowing the Republicans to take House, which helped defeat any type of relevant gun legislation for example. Elections have consequences.
shelley
Brian Lehrer agrees with you
Patrick
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
People can vote. A lot of people didn’t vote in 2010, allowing the Republicans to take House, which helped defeat any type of relevant gun legislation for example. Elections have consequences.
Trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
I’d request every supermarket manager to stock canned hams at the entry, so you can grab one to carry around whilst you shop. A swift right cross with a 5# canned ham will quickly dispatch an obvious threat to your safety who has a Glock tucked into his tighty whities. Stand Your Aisle!
Betty Cracker
@shelley: I don’t really care that much, but I’m half-assed rooting for the Netherlands. For no particular reason.
Belafon
@⚽️ Martin: If I remember correctly, when you try to walk into a gun show with a gun, someone checks it at the entrance, or at least they did at the one I went to recently. Have everyone with a gun be required to go to customer service to have it checked.
I don’t want them in the stores either. But I would not be surprised if Texas eventually passes a right to carry them into businesses law.
Violet
@Glocksman:
Open carry assholes go to Target all the time. They’re primarily white suburban and ex-urban white residents who take full advantage of all the safety and security and road access and other amenities provided by the larger community they live in. They love places like chain restaurants and big box stores. It’s how they feed their family and keep their homes stocked with necessities. They are exactly the type of people who go to Target all the time.
Sly
I worked for a Target for about 2 months years and years ago while between jobs, so I’ll say this: every single fucking day of those two months, I wanted to take a gun into the store. It’s like someone combined the most mindless elements of Madison Avenue culture with the rampant backstabbing of the Italian Parliament, vomited a ton of vapid corporate gibberish onto it for garnish, and served it up cold on a paper plate manufactured by Bengali children earning 10 cents an hour.
Trollhattan
@⚽️ Martin:
Don’t they run a cable tie through the chamber, or somesuch to render it inoperable? Since I’ll never attend one, I’m only imagining how one would run gun shows in a manner such that they’d survive their workdays.
We used to have an annual “Gun and Doll” show here. Was always boggled over the pairing.
schrodinger's cat
On further observation I have realized that the Vogue like photo, is trying to emulate the famous painting about the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Papers strewn over the floor, people around a table etc., etc.,
Betty Cracker
@Trollhattan: A well-lobbed 16-oz. canned Dak Ham could take out just about anyone. I was in fear for my life, officer!
SatanicPanic
@Violet: Real Americans go to Walmart. Target is for urban elites. (making a guess at what Ann Coulter’s next column will be)
NotMax
Loathe the cheapening of meaning of that corporate mush speak.
“Guests.” Phooey on that. They’re (we’re) customers. Or shoppers, if one must have an alternate term.
beth
@Violet: wasn’t zimmerman on his way to Target the night he shot Travon Martin? Anyway I cancelled my Target card and let them know it was because they allowed guns in their stores. Hopefully others did the same. This is a good step.
schrodinger's cat
If Target is terrible and WalMart is woeful where does one get their soap and shampoo and toothpaste from? Make it themselves?
Violet
@SatanicPanic: That’s how Target differentiates itself with its branding. The reality is, Real Murkins go to Target all the time. The Real Murkins who live in suburbs and exurbs anyway. the Real Murkins in small towns go to Wal-Mart because it’s the only thing available.
beth
@The Dangerman: Re those people blocking the immigration buses: isn’t it funny how old white teabaggers can protest in the street and block traffic and nothing happens? If they were dirty OWS hippies they’d be pepper sprayed and arrested.
burnspbesq
@pat:
I won’t presume to speak for anyone else. However, your comment is based on a fallacious view of the effect of the decision.
Hobby Lobby Isn’t about access to contraceptives; it’s about who pays. As soon as HHS revises the regulations (which shouldn’t take more than a week, and they can plausibly say this is an emergency, and thereby bypass the Administrative Procedure Act’s notice-and-comment process and make the change effective as soon as the revisions are published in the Federal Register), any female employee of Hobby Lobby (if any remain) will get her prescriptions filled for free.
Betty Cracker
@burnspbesq: Free to the employee, but paid for by the government?
opiejeanne
@scav: The women who were hustled off the property were in San Antonio, Texas.
Violet
@schrodinger’s cat: You could join the movement to go soap- and shampoo-free. Apparently it takes a week or so but then your skin and hair feel amazing. People take baths or showers so they rinse off but don’t use products.
schrodinger's cat
@Violet: I think I will pass, I am not really a kitteh and I do like showers and baths with soap and shampoo.
burnspbesq
@Betty Cracker:
Directly paid for by the insurer or TPA. Ultimately, yeah, paid for by all of us.
Ironic that a decision that most of the left professes to despise is, in its second-order effects, a small step toward single-payer.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Patrick:
I’m still going to vote, it’s the least I can do. It’s just any attempts I’ve had trying to convince people toward what we discuss here, trying to drag the pendulum leftward keeps having a disastrous backfire effect and all I see is people hitching their stars harder onto the GOP out of spite for ‘libs’ and ‘America haters’ and ‘gun grabbers’, and I’m just left feeling like there’s no way to pull the pendulum back anymore.
Patrick
@beth:
It reminds me of Cliven Bundy who hasn’t been forced to pay fees he rightly owes to the government for over 20 years, while at the same time some poor African-American could be in prison for years for drug possession.
burnspbesq
@AliceBlue:
Nice try, but the actual holding in Boerne was much narrower than your comment suggests, and in any event Boerne Was mooted by Congress when it passed the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act.
Paul in KY
@shelley: Costa Rica & Columbia.
beth
@burnspbesq: but can’t someone sue claiming the birth control is an abortificient and violates the Hyde Act (or whatever keeps govt from paying for abortions). Wouldn’t that argument be accepted by this Supreme Court?
scav
@opiejeanne: Well there’s another factor to consider: the prejudice of individual managers can also bleed through. Although in this specific instance, there does seem to be a policy that all activity in the area controlled by the Targ must be brand-enhancing. You will be Ad-similated.
Patrick
@Betty Cracker:
Paid for by the government, ie paid for by all of us. That also would mean that the owners of Hobby Lobby still are paying for this. Doesn’t that still mean that in THEIR world they still go to hell or something like that? What have they actually won?
Violet
@Paul in KY: It’s Colombia with an “o”. Not Columbia. I’m pulling for them too, except they’re playing Brazil next and I would like to see the host country go one more round. But there’s that lovely James. Sigh. I hope it’s a good game.
Patrick
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
Nothing will change until people on the left unite, get their own and bigger megaphone (the right have FoxNews), start voting in droves like the tea baggers, engage in local politics as Howard Dean suggested etc etc.
SatanicPanic
@burnspbesq: I was taunting conservatives with this- “You know you’re just celebrating the fact that instead of Hobby Lobby paying, it’s your TAX DOLLARS that will be paying for it now”. This was mostly met with denial
opiejeanne
@JPL: There is an asshole who has a pickup I used to see all the time at Home Depot, with a bumper sticker that reads: “Thank God for snipers”, among others that are far worse. I can’t remember the others but that one is the mildest of the collection. I have wondered what this jerk looks like, have never spotted him with the truck. I didn’t see it for about a year, thought he’d moved on, but then noticed it last week at the grocery store.
What makes people this angry with the world?
srv
@Sly:
I have nominated you for Poet Laureate of Targét.
Eric U.
@schrodinger’s cat: I almost always get my shampoo and soap at the grocery store. Target might be cheaper, but it’s a 20 mile round trip for me so it’s not economic anyway. I’m pretty sure that walmart is more expensive than my grocery store, but I haven’t been into one for 3 years. I left the store that time feeling that I had been robbed. Prices were 3 times what I would have paid at Amazon. My son had cleaned all the chargers and cables out of my car and I wanted to listen to music and charge my cellphone on a trip.
Ben Cisco
Just had this forwarded to me re: Lobby Hobby.
Violet
@beth: Hey, my closely held religious belief is that the little blue pills used by older men to assist in inflating their limp members are abortifacients and therefore must not be covered by health insurance.
opiejeanne
@Trollhattan: That doll show’s so the little ladies have somethin’ to do whilst the menfolks is playin’ with the purty guns.
opiejeanne
@Ben Cisco: *Snicker*
Sometimes it’s worth it to get banned.
PurpleGirl
@The Dangerman: I can’t estimate what the economic impact would be but there would be one. (1) There are locals hired as border patrol agents — Can they move to another location? (2) There could be civilians who work at the processing center — Can they move to a new location? (3) These employees buy lunch and other goods in the local area — Do local businesses really want to lose those customers.
Wasn’t it Virginia that banned illegals or undocumented people from either owning a business or doing business with local merchants? After the first year, was economic activity way down in some areas as business owners — small shopkeepers like beauty palors and small grocery stores — closed and moved away.
opiejeanne
@PurpleGirl: I thought that was Georgia, and there was no one to pick their peaches and other crops. What a surprise.
Violet
@Ben Cisco: If they’d asked about “Build it yourself IED kits” they’d no doubt have no problem. Probably have those in stock.
Ben Cisco
@Violet: BWAHAAHAA!!
Glocksman
@Trollhattan:
All of the ones I’ve attended had an off duty cop they hired at the entrance who verified your firearms were unloaded and then ran a large zip tie through the cylinder or action to render it inoperable.
The truly disturbing thing for me about the gun shows I’ve been to isn’t the guns, it’s the proliferation of white nationalist/racist/klan/survivalist literature that’s available from some vendors.
Years ago just to see what the fuss was about, I bought a copy of The Turner Diaries at a local gunshow.
The book lived down to its reputation.
PurpleGirl
@scav: Hell, the NRA doesn’t allow its members to bring in a gun to their offices or their national conventions.
cmorenc
@Betty Cracker:
On the domestic side, aside from implementing a regressive approach to civil rights and civil liberties, Nixon otherwise had a surprising progressive streak – many of our key environmental laws were passed (and the EPA founded) during his administration, with its support. Nixon also viewed favorably a precursor to the idea of a living wage (the negative income tax). I’m not forgiving Nixon here for all the damage he did to the country elsewhere, including especially the cynical “Southern Strategy” that has borne so many terrible long-term consequences for the country, but IMHO Nixon did far less lasting damage than Reagan and actually made some lasting hugely valuable contributions to the country, whereas Reagan has absolutely zip for + side accomplishments and laid the foundation for long-term GOP destructive nihilism.
HAD GERALD FORD managed to squeak out a win against Jimmy Carter in 1976 and instead have wound up with the turd in his pocket for the stagflating economic conditions (and probably the Iran hostage crisis as well) – it’s possible Reagan might still have won the 1980 GOP nomination, but he would have run against forbiddingly difficult headwinds in the general election and a decisive majority of the electorate would have been primed for a Kennedy (Ted) restoration to have a go at digging the country out of the ditch. The last 30 years would have been light-years different, and we’d likely have had fundamental reform of the health insurance system (or even some form of universal health insurance) thirty years ago. And SCOTUS would not have been full of right-wing asshats during that period.
pat
@burnspbesq:
My comment refers more broadly to every single news report etc. The fact that the women are not doing this all alone, but have partners who are never mentioned. It is weird. Yeah, the sluts want consequence-free sex, well in most cases I would imagine, so do their partners. Or be paying for the oops for the next 18 years.
My point is that contraception should be seen as something that benefits everyone. Sigh.
Paul in KY
@Violet: The pendant hoisted by his own pentard!
PurpleGirl
@opiejeanne: Could be, I decided not to take the time to double check. Point being, all those people who they didn’t want living in their area did important economic activity.
burnspbesq
@beth:
Sure, you could allege that in a complaint, and you probably wouldn’t be subject to Rule 11 sanctions, because you can plausibly argue that it’s not frivolous. Good luck proving it..There’s an interesting post at LGM about the difference between what’s in the FDA labeling for IUDs and morning-after pills and what the current science actually shows.
Not if the defense lawyers and the lower courts do their jobs properly.
You get all the appropriate science into evidence, by way of expert testimony, at trial. You make sure you get good findings of fact in the District Court opinion.
Then, when you win and the lunatics appeal, you make the appellate case about whether the District Court’s findings of fact were clearly erroneous, which they won’t have been.
Now, when you win in the circuit, what’s the “Questions Presented” section of the lunatics’ petition for cert going to look like, that’s going to get the attention of four Justices?
JCT
@Eric U.: Indeed – there is even such a thing as a “Walmart Walk” – apparently a rite of passage for ammosexuals with a new CCW. With maps and everything. Profoundly infantile.
Morzer
@pat:
There are plenty of angry conservative men out there who will argue (and do argue) that they shouldn’t have to pay for being trapped by a welfare-seeking “slut”. Lots of deadbeat dads among the teabaggers – for example, Joe Walsh.
Mayken
@AliceBlue: Wait, what? So… what does that mean? How can they rely on this for setting precedent then?
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!
beth
@burnspbesq: thank you.
Morzer
@PurpleGirl:
That was Georgia and they cost themselves a fortune in unpicked fruit and vegetables. Not entirely coincidentally. Georgia’s reasonably likely to go a purply blue in the not-so-distant future.
Glocksman
@JCT:
I haven’t heard of a ‘Walmart Walk’, but Walmart does sell firearms and ammunition while Target does not.
I don’t even own a centerfire firearm anymore*, but Wally World used to have good deals on the Winchester white box generic practice ammo.
That said, even my two best friends who are zealous 2A supporters agree that the open carry loons are, as one said, ‘hurting us badly’.
*I’m considering buying a Ruger LCR or Smith Centennial in December with my mandatory overtime money.
chopper
@Patrick:
if more and more closely-held corporations start going to the courts demanding to be relieved of the responsibility of providing coverage for their own pet issue, and in each case the gubbermint is able to say they can come up with a workaround, then over time the government is going to be taking on more and more coverage for people and employers are going to be taking on less and less. not really the end result the right-wingers had in mind.
ironic, given that one basis of the ACA was to start the process of cutting health insurance from employment. HL could, in the end, give a big boost to the nationalization of healthcare.
Patrick
@chopper:
Great way of looking at it. Hadn’t thought it that way. So maybe, indirectly, this was actually a good result…
JCT
@Glocksman: I used to pick up target ammo at Walmart (convenience factor) until the insanity and hoarding hit last year. I reload centerfire now. More than happy to avoid patronizing that store, quite frankly. Rimfire is a continuing problem.
Yes – the 2A nuts I know immediately pointed out that the open carry nitwits with their long guns were going to screw things up. Duh. I am with Betty, I would prefer if the handgun guys had to open carry. I want to know who they are.
I have an early Centennial, 640 – no lock, .38 only. A challenge to shoot – it bites!
Glocksman
@JCT:
If you’ve got the original wood grips, change them out for a set of Uncle Mikes or Hogues.
I sold off my Centennial that came with the Uncle Mikes and it was easily controllable even with +P 110 grain hollowpoints.
I wish I hadn’t sold it, but I needed the money.
Now my buddy’s .357 Centennial on the other hand actually hurt my hand to shoot with full charge .357 ammo.
Fred Fnord
@japa21: The weasel words are because if they REQUIRE it, and someone decides to come in with a weapon anyway, they have two recourses.
One, they can call the police, hope that this does not make the man with the gun angry in the interim, and then ask the police to escort the man off the premises for trespassing, which the police may or may not do. (It is NOT the police’s job to enforce store policies, so depending on the laws, this may simply not fly.)
Two, you can ask one of your (unarmed) employees to escort him out. Do you suppose any of them are paid enough to go confront armed people, unarmed, and tell them to leave?
But even the former one has the potential to get the place shot up, and customers and employees killed in the bargain, if someone doesn’t like the fact that you called the cops when he hears the sirens.
So no, you don’t ban people with guns, unless open carry is illegal per se. You just ask them nicely. Because freedom of speech is reserved for people who open carry guns.
Glocksman
@Fred Fnord:
Unless the state or local jurisdiction has a law or ordinance giving violation of ‘no guns allowed’ signs the force of an automatic trespass, I believe that the gun carrier has to be asked to leave by store personnel before it’s legally considered trespassing.
At that point, if the gun carrier refuses to leave then the cops can cite/arrest him for trespassing.
I could be wrong, though.
As I noted above a lot of states have laws that prohibit carry even for CCW holders in certain establishments such as hospitals, court and government buildings, etc.
Violate those at your peril.
When I used to carry, I never was asked to leave anywhere because my pistol was concealed in a Bianchi holster that secured the gun under either a coat or long sleeveless photographer’s vest.
In fact, the only times I was ever asked about being armed was when I collected several speeding tickets in my younger days.
The first question out of the cops mouths was inevitably ‘Are you carrying a gun?’ because I have a carry permit and they knew it before they left their cars.
For my part I always left both hands on the wheel and answered honestly (no, except for one time).
Betty Cracker
@Glocksman: If you don’t mind my asking, what motivated you to carry a concealed weapon?
Villago Delenda Est
@shelley: Deutschland Ũber Alles!
Omnes Omnibus (the first of his name)
@Villago Delenda Est: Allez les Bleus!
Mnemosyne
@burnspbesq:
Fix’d. The whole “sluts are getting their pills for FREE!” meme is really pissing me off. Do people really not understand the concept of something being included in a single price? Even Disneyland hasn’t made you pay separately to ride the rides for decades now — it’s all included in the price.
And, yes, it does piss me off that Hobby Lobby and its pals are mooching off MY TAX DOLLARS rather than paying for their own damn employee benefits.
Matt McIrvin
@srv: “Barack Obama is the worst president ever and Ronald Reagan is the best” is a long way of saying “I am Republican”.
Hob
@Berial: My problem with that piece is toward the end, where he assumes good faith on the part of the “demonstrators”: he says that they just don’t understand that people are afraid because people can’t discern their good intentions.
Although there may be some well-intentioned but confused souls in that crowd, I think it’s more reasonable to assume that guys who dress and act like paramilitary thugs are well aware of how scary that is, and that if people flee a store when they show up, that’s a reaction that they enjoy.
The PQED writer also says if you take his advice and leave without paying, the “demonstrators” will be stuck with the bill. I’m not sure how that’s supposed to work— the store owner politely asks these heavily armed thugs to pony up the money, and then what, throw them out if they don’t pay for stuff they didn’t buy?
WaterGirl
@Hob: I think the point is that the proprietor will lose money because no one will pay, and soon the proprietor will not allow armed people into the establishment because it’s costing the owner money.
Matt McIrvin
@Patrick:
The ability to sue again and get all government support for contraceptives removed?
Matt McIrvin
@burnspbesq:
I’m sure they’ll do that. What happens if the Supreme Court rules for Little Sisters of the Poor? Then the next company that really wants to screw with its employees can just block the government coverage by refusing to fill out a form.
Matt McIrvin
…And, of course, this new form of contraceptive coverage goes away the instant a Republican administration takes office, unlike the previous, statutory version.
Glocksman
@Betty Cracker:
Sorry about being late to reply, but I usually carried when I worked until 3AM on weekends at a local bowling alley/buffet.
The buffet closed at 9PM, but I bartended until 2:30AM, and it wasn’t the best of areas to be in.
Luckily I never needed the gun.
I also carried in direct violation of company policy when I had a part time job at a local convenience store on 3rd shift on weekends.
Like I’ve said in other posts, if all they wanted was the money, they’re welcome to it and I’d even fill up the getaway car for them.
If the robber ordered me to lay on the floor or go into the cooler on the other hand, the Centennial on my hip at least would have given me a chance.