.
The one tiny consolation, for those of us who were against the C-Plus Augustus’s Excellent Iraqi Adventure from the get-go, is that at least we’re not looking at President McCain right now. I’m with Mr. Charles P. Pierce:
The past continues to shoot at the present in Iraq. Yet another day, and yet another public pronouncement from the president, and yet another spasm of outrage from the foreign-policy claque that got us into the Iraq debacle in the first place. It is going to be a terrible couple of months for anyone who opposed the entire clusterfck from jump and now has to listen to the likes of this tripe from the people who have not yet apologized for the worst foreign-policy decision of my lifetime…
… We are going to hear about making sure that those Americans did not “die in vain.” In fact, as it turns out, they did. They died because the people who sent them to war without the proper equipment and under false pretenses, and the people who encouraged the war itself, like John McCain, who seriously doesn’t know what he’s talking about and hasn’t for years, did not have a plan. They had fantasies. These soldiers died so that Washington neocons could live out their dream of a purgative war of civilizations. These soldiers died because there was oil that people in this country, and around the world, wanted. These soldiers died so that the likes of Richard Cheney could continue to infest the corridors of power, and so that his worthless daughter could continue to have a gig. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians died for all the same reasons. If we forget all that in our attempt to salvage our Iraqi misadventure, and if we allow the architects of that misadventure to use the current crisis to rehabilitate their crimes and malfeasance, then thousands more people will die in vain…
************
Apart from nursing the sick certainty that we’ve watched this melodrama before, what’s on the agenda for the day?
With John McCain as Our Co-Pilot: A brief history of the Senator's policy pronouncements on the Iraq War
http://t.co/8g0m4m53HG
— billmon (@billmon1) June 13, 2014
NotMax
Is it Spike Commenters’ Blood Pressure Day again already?
Hal
How many wars would the US be involved in at this point if McCain was President? Iraq, Iran, Syria, and who knows what with Russia/Ukraine. He’s like Martin Sheen’s character in The Dead Zone. The lovable politician whose paranoia destroys the world in a nuclear holocaust.
Meanwhile Chris Christie’s reinvention tour continues. If dad pants doesn’t make people want him as President, nothing will.
NotMax
It would be worth impeachment for an order trading McCain to the Taliban.
tsquared2001
Lord knows I don’t like to disagree with Brother Pierce but Neocons didn’t have fantasies.
tsquared2001
@Hal: http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_25943914/wife-49ers-jim-harbaugh-combats-dad-pants
OzarkHillbilly
Uhhh Charlie? I don’t know about you but I am going to spend the next six months telling every one of those a-holes, “I told you so.” and “What??? Didn’t you kill enough people the first time around?” and “I suppose you want to keep this one off the books too.”
Amir Khalid
The Daily Beast gave this piece of crap a favourable write-up. It’s way too soon for fiction about MH370. I read the previewed part on Amazon.com and the prose is Dan Brown-level awful. For obvious reasons, I don’t expect to see the book on sale here in KL.
CarolDuhart2
“Lord knows I don’t like to disagree with Brother Pierce but Neocons didn’t have fantasies.”
No, they have hallucinations. Take 60 Thorazine and lie down should have been the reply to the idea of invading Iraq.
Tommy
Obama said it right yesterday. The Iraqis won’t stand and defend their own posts. Enough said. If they won’t fight for their nation why should any American?
Alex S.
Pierce says exactly what I think needs to be repeated again and again: Yes, those Amercians actually died in vain. Thousands of lives and trillions of dollars spent on a failure.
Baud
Jesus, guys, lighten up. You’re treating the Iraq war as if it were a tragedy on the scale of malfunctioning government website. It’s not that bad.
Tommy
@OzarkHillbilly: Yeah I was one of those liberals that thought invading Iraq was a good idea at the time. I tend to spend a fair amount of time saying I was wrong, wrong wrong. I am sorry, sorry, sorry. Please forgive me. I guess it shouldn’t surprise me but I am stunned I see these folks that promoted war on TV to this very day presented to me as experts on foreign policy and the military.
big ole hound
Lets ask the “good guys with guns” to go to Iraq to face these guys starting with the crew from Bundyville. Other than that I wish we had live feeds from Goodyear for entertainment.
James E. Powell
@Alex S.:
Pretty much like that whole Vietnam business. I mean, Vietnam’s been communist for a very long time. No dominoes. No threat to America. No reason for any of them to have died. Or killed or destroyed either.
But you won’t get anywhere telling people that our troops died in vain. That kind of talk provokes hyper-patriotic reaction. Even from some who opposed the military action. And every president who sends other people’s children into action knows this. Once begun, the action becomes its own justification. Or rather, eliminates the need for any justification beyond a vague, Reaganesque claim of a Noble Cause.™
NotMax
@Tommy
Tactically, the routing and escape of the troops was a military disaster and a royal clusterf*ck.
Strategically, perhaps not so much.
Could 30,000 troops have run through 800 guerrilla fighters? Almost surely. However, the distinct likelihood of several hundred thousand civilians in and around Mosul rising up against those same troops, igniting and escalating an open and indisputable civil war, quite possibly soon leading to the toppling of the marginal government which employs and pays the troops puts the retreat, as sorry, ragged and demoralizing as it was, in some perspective.
geg6
That Pierce piece may be his finest piece of writing ever. Says everything I want to say about this.
In sad news today, the great Chuck Noll has died. The Emperor is dead. Greatest coach of my lifetime, IMHO.
raven
@James E. Powell: And people wanted to know what the problem with Jim Webb was last night.
Tommy
@geg6: I am watching the PBS Newshour from Friday. David Brooks on. I kid you not he said McCain had always been right on Iraq. We should listen to him. I expect Brooks to say stupid shit, but honestly I had to hit rewind on my DVR cause I couldn’t believe he said that. Charles Pierce is right. They are going to try and rewrite history.
OzarkHillbilly
@Tommy: At least you learned. Almost got in a fight that night, and would’ve gotten my ass kicked, but I didn’t care- I was just that pissed. Afterwards, a buddy was talking to me trying to cool me off some, saying things like, “This isn’t the time, Tom.” or “Don’t worry Tom, it will all be over before your sons are old enuf.” (14 &16 at the time)
Told him recently I was still pissed off at him for the things he said.
NotMax
@Tommy
What Brooks doesn’t know about history in general and military history in particular would fill every Applebee’s from coast to coast thrice over, and then some.
Tommy
@OzarkHillbilly: I try to learn from my mistakes. I make a lot of mistakes so I guess learn a lot :). What freaks me out about the neo-cons is their total lack of self-awareness.
Baud
@Tommy:
In one of last night’s threads, David Koch was posting excerpts from a number of Brooks’ columns from around 2003. Damning stuff. Brooks has absolutely no credibility is asserting who’s been right about Iraq.
Tommy
@Baud: As I said they will try to rewrite history. I am sure the memo went out, now is our chance. We can say we were right. That the only reason things are not perfect in Iraq is Obama.
NotMax
@Tommy
Too, their collective delusion that both The Rover Boys and The Prince are policy manuals.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Correction: Brooks has no credibility in asserting who has been right about anything ever in the history of man. He probably thinks Napoleon’s march on Moscow was a good idea.
Tommy
Some quotes from McCain:
I guess my memory isn’t that great, cause I knew he had to say some stupid shit, but I didn’t realize how bad it actually was.
Baud
@Tommy:
Hard to believe a guy who picked Sarah Palin as a running mate could be so wrong about everything.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Heh.
WereBear
Who can forget the lies told to the UN?
The towns throwing garage sales to buy someone body armor?
While pallets of cash were flown in and then vanished?
The looting of the museums?
You know, I think they did get exactly the war they wanted.
NotMax
@Baud
As good an analyst as he was a pilot.
JPL
@raven: What did Jim Webb say?
seaboogie
Really digging the NRA ad, inviting me to join for $25 and get a free duffel bag. Headed here from Salon to comment, and the ad is here too. Man, that is one cheesy come-on. I had better luggage from Lancome, buying mascara back in the day.
Roger Moore
@Baud:
Only if you accept the weird liberal idea that credibility is somehow tied to the ability to make correct predictions. If you recognize that it really depends on agreeing with the right kind of people, you’ll realize what a genius he is.
beth
I’ve seen a few rightward friends postjng some speech of W’s from 2007 warning about violence breaking out when we leave Iraq. These people are actually boasting about how GWB foresaw what would happen so why couldn’t Obama? Some googling shows this meme front and center on every wingnut website. When I point out that pretty much everyone knew this would happen and ask how long should we have stayed (and how many more should have died) I get crickets. It’s maddening.
sm*t cl*de
Correct me if I am wrong, but was there not a time when presidential candidates had the good taste to shut up if they lost and move on to some other area of lobbying (like climate change), rather than endlessly presenting themselves as some sort of usurped President-in-Exile?
NotMax
@beth
“Until the heat death of the universe, and not one minute more.”
Roger Moore
@beth:
Once we mess the place up, we’re never allowed to leave because we’re the only thing keeping the place from collapse. Sounds like the dictionary definition of a quagmire.
sm*t cl*de
Hey, their deaths weren’t in vain. They made some profiteers even wealthier than they were before.
debbie
@Hal:
I think at one point we were up to six. Of course, any worries about spending or the deficit would have magically evaporated.
Baud
@Roger Moore:
That’s half right. Modern credibility also depends on blaming the correct people when things go south.
JPL
@debbie: Everyone knows that tax cuts and wars pay for themselves.
Baud
@debbie:
Literally kept off budget.
debbie
@Baud:
Or tucked away in some lock-box somewhere.
OzarkHillbilly
@beth: Just ask them how much they are willing to have their taxes raised to pay for it.
beth
@Roger Moore: What’s really nuts is that in the comments section these idiots are begging GWB to step back into the spotlight and tell Obama what he’s doing wrong. Some claim it’s his patriotic duty. Hah even W’s not that dumb!
Baud
I’ll miss my fellow Americans.
Baud
@beth:
I want that too!
Higgs Boson's Mate
We were waist deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.
– Pete Seeger
NotMax
@Baud
Muster the Kierkegaard Korps and the Sartre Squadron!
Linda Featheringill
I hesitate to repeat myself, but will anyway. This is Iraq’s problem and not ours. The regime we propped up when we left was probably temporary anyway. Iraq itself will probably go through a couple of regime changes before it settles down. But it’s their country and their problem and they have a right to settle it in their way.
France in the 18th and 19th centuries is just lucky it didn’t have the US to straighten it out and demonstrate how to get things done.
Poopyman
@Linda Featheringill: Or it may go thusly:
eldorado
of course they didn’t die in vain. they died to stop saddam hussein’s wmd program, and also to punish him for his involvement in 9-11
MomSense
@Baud:
HA!!
I should not have read that while drinking coffee.
Baud
@NotMax:
When you stare long into an abyss, eventually John McCain stares back.
OzarkHillbilly
@Poopyman: Good. They can have it.
Betty Cracker
I just can’t anymore with these neo-con vultures. May they kindly direct themselves to the nearest fire and die therein.
Suffern ACE
@Roger Moore: yep. In 2007 it wasn’t difficult to come to the conclusion that the surge only gave the surface appearance of peace. Announcing that we were leaving probably bought us more time. We probably would have been better off scrapping Maliki early and starting over, but that would have meant staying around to support whomever we put in charge for another ten years.
There were lots of Sunnis left out out of power. And lots driven from Bagdad in the name of calming things down during the surge. It’s not as if we can expect people driven from their property to get over that in a few months.
Citizen_X
@beth:
Oh, please, FSM, make this happen.
Citizen_X
Ya know, say what you will about Mitt Romney, but at least he doesn’t spend every weekend and evening publicly playing Fake Commander-In-Chief.
Hey McCain, it’s been six years. You lost. Let it fucking go.
Cassidy
@Suffern ACE: The different factions told us they were saving the “good stuff” for after we left.
I’d volunteer to go back, PTSD and nightmares and all. Got a couple friends in the IA.
Tokyokie
Back in 2002, I argued strenuously that we had no cause to invade Iraq, and now that things are playing out pretty much as I predicted they would, I get little comfort in having been right a decade ago. But it angers me greatly to see the same bloodthirsty fools who advocated this disaster clammering to repeat the disaster so our troops will not have died in vain, as though jacking up the body count will provide meaning. They need to be told, repeatedly to their faces, that not only are they are wrong, but that they are war criminals whose belicose blundering is the proximate cause of all the soldiers’ needless deaths and injuries.
SRW1
@beth:
You should ask your righty friends why, if he was so prescient, Bush signed the 2008 Status of Forces Agreement which established that the US would withdraw all combat forces from Iraqi cities by mid 2009 and that all US forces would have left Iraq by December 2011 at latest.
Maybe with a helpful hint that chronologically 2008 comes after 2007.
Villago Delenda Est
@NotMax: My first thought while reading the FP text.
You’re trying to kill me, Anne, aren’t you?
Someone give John “Auger In!” McCain an F-4 or soemthing else he can go and crash and THIS time not survive it, so we can be rid of his useless verbal diarrhea forever.
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: I’d prefer something along the lines of a trial in Nuremberg, followed by hangmen fucking up the counterweights.
Villago Delenda Est
@OzarkHillbilly: Well, from the perspective of the Tsar and Britain, it was a GREAT idea!
Svensker
@Tokyokie:
Yup.
Frankensteinbeck
@tsquared2001:
No, they really believed this shit, and still do. Look at the media, where you have a whole lot of dumbasses with only the vaguest financial connection to the Iraq War who acted and still act like it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread. Greedy does not disqualify stupid, and frankly Cheney and his friends could have wrung a whole lot more money out of Iraq if they hadn’t refused – on ideological grounds – to rebuild the country. They believed that clapping their hands would create a world empire where everyone loved America’s manly power, and still do.
Villago Delenda Est
@Tommy: It appears that a lack of self awareness is a prerequisite to joining the Neocon club.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Andrea Mitchell gave him at least ten solid minutes yesterday to drone on. Do you think she watches her own fucking network? It’s insane and maddening that this old fool is still treated as if he knows anything.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I wonder if he got that straight from Bill Kristol, or if they both got it over dinner from that Iraqi exile who thought he was going to be installed as our proconsul (Chalabi?)
D58826
@NotMax: It would not have looked so bad if the Iraqi troops had withdrawn in good order, taking their weapons and uniforms with them and then setting up defensive positions outside of Mosul. Rather it looks like it was every man for himself and the devil take the hind most..
D58826
@Amir Khalid: Click on Amazon and it looks like there is a cottage industry of ‘I know what really happened’ kindle books. Blood sucking bottom crawlers always come out of the woodwork to cash in on other people’s pain.
Jennifer
McCainsplaining: the act of delineating why military action is not only the best, but the only, possible course of action.
D58826
Peter Bergin on CNN on Bushes toxic legacy and why the surge ‘worked’
Ruckus
@CarolDuhart2:
I’m not sure 60 a day would be enough. I’ve seen the effects close up(not going into details currently) and the patients still had moments in the day when they could speak and scare everyone with the thought that anyone could actually believe what came out of their mouths. That might be the same process here if the dosage isn’t high enough.
Ruckus
@OzarkHillbilly:
He could correctly assert that he has never been right about anything. Although I do remember just the other day the earth almost stopped spinning because he did almost write a good column. He had to fuck it up in the end though just to let us know he didn’t farm out the effort.
Suffern ACE
@D58826: yep. And when Maliki undid that by tamping down on the Sons of Iraq, he… Oh never mind. I hope the partition goes better than I could hope for and is merely unimaginably catastrophic and not nightmarishly disastrous.
Suffern ACE
@D58826: they are called instant books. Most major publishing houses have an imprint. Super market reads. I used to live with a copy editor who hated those assignments because the deadlines were too short to query anything.
J R in WV
@Tommy:
Those three McCain mistakes are three cherries from a truck load pulling out of the orchard!
McCain, what an ass, his picture is beside that word in most dictionaries! Called his wife a C**t to her FACE in front of reporters, who were so horrified they didn’t write stories about it for years, and then it dribbled out as rumors. So dumb he dropped his bomb load into a lake of flaming jet fuel on the Forrestal flight deck.
So incompetent he crashed more jets than any other Navy flier, because they grounded most pilots after they lost two jets. But his Dad and Grandpa were BOTH Admirals, so he got to keep on flying until he broke mission guidelines over enemy territory and got shot down and put away where he couldn’t crash any more.
The other day I had an epiphany about McCain – he so badly needs to be our ambassador to The People’s Republic of Viet Nam! For the rest of his life!
Enhanced Voting Techniques
How about no clue what our objective was there in the first place? Twelve years on and no one from the Bush admin has been able to articulate why it was necessary to invade Iraq beyond they were channeling the spirit of the English Empire and wanted to paint the map red white and blue.
But I suppose we will yet again get another “The Hippies betrayed us” myth going with the Right like Vietnam.
J R in WV
Neck Deep in the Big Muddy, and the Captain says to press on!
The first thought whenever I see the word Quagmire in print, and so apt for both Iraq AND Afganistan.
And then the Captain drowns on the mud he denies, what a shame that can’t happen to McCain! Or Bush!
Shame about coach Noll, and Pete Seeger a little while ago! Now there’s a patriot for you, worked every day into his 90s trying to make America a better place for you and me!
Villago Delenda Est
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: Yes, the makings of the Iraq Dolchstoßlegende are already being displayed on the tube (Scott Pelley was very pointed about the “died in vain” talking point the other day) and in the dead tree MSM (AP writeup in today’s local fishwrap was oozing it).
Absolutely no questioning of why the entire thing happened in the first place. The predictions of the DFHs are, once again, coming true, and, as Albus Dumbledore so correctly pointed out, it’s far easier to forgive someone for making a mistake than for being right about something.