It’s All Over But the Crying



Also, PA just legalized gay marriage yesterday thanks in part to Antonin Scalia.

72 replies
  1. 1
    BGinCHI says:

    I for one welcome our fabulous gay overlords.

  2. 2
    El Caganer says:

    ….and as many have noted, it’s the same judge who told the creationists to pound sand in the Dover case. Dubyuh appointee, recommended by Rick Santorum. Will wonders never cease?

  3. 3
    cleek says:

    thanks for nuthin, Oblamba

  4. 4
    the Conster says:

    The PA decision was beautifully written, and the conga line of cites to Scalia’s dissent is just the cherry on top. I wonder if Scalia has any clue that he’s a laughingstock?

  5. 5
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    OT, but Noisemax actually thinks this means something other than a punch line for Colbert:

    Pat Sajak Blasts Global Warming Activists

    Yes, Pat Sajak, noted climate expert, is the go to guy for informed opinion on climate change.

    I’m trying to think of a “vowel movement” joke, but I’ll throw that to the Juiceitariat for their amusement.

  6. 6
    Turgidson says:

    But the crying will go on for decades.

  7. 7
    gbear says:

    The haters are going to get really nasty and desperate. Some ugly things are going to happen while these gains are being made. As we’ve seen with women’s and minority rights, we won’t be able to take this as a done deal. It will always be a battle to keep our rights.

    In Idaho, gay marriage may become legal, but it is still also legal to fire an employee or evict them from a rental home for being gay.

  8. 8
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @gbear: The “Christian” Wahhabists will certainly fight a rear guard action for years, much as the forced-birthers have. It will not be pretty.

  9. 9
    Howard Beale IV says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: There’s nothing ‘Christian’ about those kind. They’re Neo-Pharisees.

  10. 10
    jayjaybear says:

    Gov. Corbett has declined to appeal the ruling, so marriage equality is the law of the land in PA. My wedding date is next Wednesday. :)

  11. 11
    Mudge says:

    My fantasy is that the writers for Wheel Of Fortune have “global warming” as the puzzle and have Sajak say “An occurrence” as the clue.

  12. 12
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @jayjaybear: WOOT! Congratulations, jayjaybear, to you and your new spouse!

  13. 13
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Howard Beale IV: That’s why I put the word in rabbit ears.

  14. 14
    MikeJ says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    The “Christian” Wahhabists will certainly fight a rear guard action for years

    There wasn’t a majority of people who approved of interracial marriage until the mid 90s, 30 years after Loving.


  15. 15
    pluege says:

    What “the people” think no longer matters. The courts have finally figured out that its unconstitutional for the government to discriminate against a particular set of citizens. (And its a good thing, dumb and vile as “the people” have been and 42% of them still are.)

  16. 16
    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader says:

    Gotta also give mad props to Karl Rove for all the anti-gay initiatives he put before the voters in 2004 and 2006 to help Republicans win elections.

  17. 17
    Soonergrunt says:

    @BGinCHI: I’m sure they can do better with the decorations than I could.

  18. 18
    gbear says:

    @jayjaybear: Congrats! I read Corbett’s statement about not appealing the ruling, and it’s actually a pretty good response. He managed to keep any bitterness or anger in check (unless he read the statement through clenched teeth…I haven’t seen a video).

  19. 19
    jayjaybear says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader: Karl Rove and the gay community’s very own personal Quisling Ken Mehlman.

  20. 20
    scav says:

    They can gather together and stew in the bitterness of their sanctity in their big-box terrarium sanctuaries. A Chrism of Bile shall anoint their lips and foreheads. One good thing about marriages is the ratchet of getting couples established. Breaking those up once established is harder — as denying a similar status for others is trickier — to sell than playing games with events like abortion that are short bursts of activity. They will try and there will be ranting.

  21. 21
    Betty Cracker says:

    @jayjaybear: Congratulations!

  22. 22
    skerry says:

    It is still legal in PA to fire someone for being gay. So keep those wedding photos off the desk.

  23. 23
    JPL says:

    @jayjaybear: Congrats!
    When the amendment was up for a vote in GA, an eye doctor told me that he was for it because the gays were going to ruin traditional marriages. I laughed and mentioned that my ex did a pretty good job, all by himself. I didn’t go back to him.

  24. 24
    Francis says:

    And on the other side of the ledger, we have Rod Dreher’s lamentation, entitled “Christianity and History’s Ash Heap”.

    (I read his stuff to keep my outrage levels nice and high.)

    and mazel tov! to jayjaybear and his / her upcoming nuptials.

  25. 25
    Roger Moore says:


    My wedding date is next Wednesday. :)

    Congratulations! Sorry us dumb straights have made you put it off this long.

  26. 26
    Jay C says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Annnnd: spinning the Wheel in the category “Obvious Things”: we get:

    P_T S_J_K IS _ M_R_N

  27. 27
    jayjaybear says:

    We’re both state civil service, so there is some protection there, even if there’s no overarching anti-discrimination law.

  28. 28
    mtiffany says:

    Quick back of the envelope math says that almost all of the 26 percentage point drop in opposition to marriage equality over the last eighteen years can be attributed to the attrition of mortality — based on a seventy-year lifespan, that is. Bigots are dying off faster than they can be replaced.

  29. 29
    Cassidy says:

    What they are losing by adjudication they will attempt to take back with force. This isn’t close to being done.

  30. 30
    Botsplainer says:

    OT, but does anybody understand the iphone “orphan mailbox” message (it quit syncing this afternoon after 1:05), or know why it would dump every goddamned email suddenly?

    those apple forums don’t help at all.

  31. 31
    Origuy says:

    I can haz Chick-fil-a naow?

    It was easier to boycott it before they started putting locations in my area. I think I’ll wait until the count goes over 25, though.

  32. 32
    dmsilev says:

    Opinions also differ dramatically along party lines. Democrats (74%) are far more likely to support gay marriage as Republicans are (30%), while independents (58%) are more in line with the national average. Though Republicans still lag behind in their support of same-sex marriage, they have nearly doubled their support for it since Gallup began polling on the question in 1996.

    The GOP Presidential primaries in 2016 are going to be *fascinating*. Pro same-sex marriage will probably still be a minority position among Republicans, especially for the hard core that dominates the primary electorate. Meanwhile, the nation as a whole will probably be a few points more in favor, say 58 percent or so, meaning that running hard against same-sex marriage will be a net negative in the general. I can’t wait to see what sort of avoid-the-question answers the GOP field comes up with.

    Live by the social wedge issue, die by the social wedge issue.

  33. 33
    Walker says:

    This does not mean the fight is over. Heck, we are still fighting over birth control.

  34. 34
    Trollhattan says:

    IMHO all it will take to end the whole kerfuffle will be a string of ugly, viscious, high-profile ghey divorces. Nothing shuts up the shouting class like a sweet, tall glass of Schadenfreude.

  35. 35
    Roger Moore says:


    Quick back of the envelope math says that almost all of the 26 percentage point drop in opposition to marriage equality over the last eighteen years can be attributed to the attrition of mortality

    If you assume that 100% of old people disapprove and 100% of young people approve, you can get there, but the crosstabs don’t back you up. Younger people are more likely to support marriage equality than old ones, but not by a big enough margin to explain the changes. If you look at what has happened to given populations as they’ve aged, they have gradually become more accepting. Bigots dying off are still an important contributor, but a lot of the change is a result of people changing their minds. That’s how it has moved from 57-40 against in 2009 to 55-42 in favor in 2014.

  36. 36
    Iowa Old Lady says:

    @Jay C: Disemvowelled!

  37. 37
    mdblanche says:

    @dmsilev: At this point it would probably be quicker to list the issues where they won’t have this problem.

  38. 38
    Belafon says:

    @Origuy: I saw a tweet that said you were allowed to marry your cousin in 26 states. That sounds like a good line.

  39. 39
    satby says:

    @jayjaybear: Big congrats jayjaybear!

  40. 40
    cthulhu says:


    It is still legal in PA to fire someone for being gay. So keep those wedding photos off the desk.

    Indeed the marriage battle is but one step. Fortunately all the crazy complaining about it may also encourage SCOTUS to eventually consider sexual orientation as a protected class. Then that’s about all that can be done legally.

    Of course, there will still be haters. There always are.

  41. 41
    KG says:

    @Roger Moore: more than anything, I think it’s exposure to and the utter regularness of gay Americans in the last 15-20 years. it’s a lot easier to hate or oppose things/people when you don’t see/deal with them on a regular basis. but you can’t quite do that in today’s world.

  42. 42
    MikeJ says:


    It is still legal in PA to fire someone for being gay.

    In most of the US there are very, very few things you can’t be fired for.

  43. 43
    Roger Moore says:


    This does not mean the fight is over. Heck, we are still fighting over birth control.

    OTOH, we aren’t still fighting over interracial marriage the same way. Marriage is different because it’s an ongoing legal relationship, so changing the rules requires you to take people’s marriages away. That’s different from birth control or abortion, where making them illegal doesn’t do anything about what people did in the past.

  44. 44
    NotMax says:

    Totally trivia:

    The earliest instance I’ve yet found of a same-sex marriage on TV is from an episode of Sirota’s Law in 1976.

    Though the marriage ceremony depicted was performed by a judge it was, it goes without saying, not recognized as valid or legal by the state at that time.

  45. 45
    KG says:

    @Francis: just tried to read it and couldn’t make it through. i mean, i really, really tried. but i just have no patience for the (lack of) traditional marriage argument.

  46. 46
    satby says:

    @Roger Moore: .@mtiffany: That over the last 18 years more gay people are out and proud and everyone knows or has a gay person in their family is the reason for the rapid change IMHO. My 84 year old mother now knows her grandson is gay; she insists that she only ever heard of one gay person at all in her life until the 70s (sigh). But she would allow no one to infringe on the rights of a beloved grandchild. That’s happened all over this country

  47. 47
    Seanly says:

    PA? Awesome.

    I’m in Boise & was hoping to see the stay not go in place here. My wife & I are friends with this couple. Darcy was very excited to become an official adoptive parents of their children. She was all set to go to the Ada County DMV and get her name changed on her DL (the couple was married in CA a few years ago).

    I still don’t understand how gay marriage would do any of the following:
    1) Destroy hetero marriage
    2) Stop procreation

    Also, since my wife & I don’t have any children but nevertheless have a loving, supportive marriage, I am deeply offended by all the people arguing that the sole purpose of marriage is for hetero procreation.

  48. 48
    different-church-lady says:

    It’s All Over But the Crying

    Well, yeah, that and all the laws changing one by one, but it’s going to happen.

    I remember saying to a gay friend back in 2007, “It’s inevitable, it’s just a matter of time.” It’s nice to have been right about something for a change.

  49. 49
    ChrisTS says:

    @jayjaybear: Wow! Congratulations! Our daughter is looking for a new girlfriend. :-)

  50. 50
    different-church-lady says:


    That over the last 18 years more gay people are out and proud and everyone knows or has a gay person in their family is the reason for the rapid change IMHO.

    One of my favorite New Yorker cartoons has a gay couple sitting in their living room, and one is saying on the phone, “We’re not doing anything for Pride Day this year. We’re here, we’re queer, we’re used to it.”

    And now, it appears, so is the rest of the country.

  51. 51
    WereBear says:

    @jayjaybear: Congratulations!

  52. 52
    Roger Moore says:


    I still don’t understand how gay marriage would do any of the following:
    1) Destroy hetero marriage
    2) Stop procreation

    The judges can’t either, which is why they’re striking down gay marriage laws left and right. There’s no good argument for why denying non-exclusive rights to one group somehow improves them for another group.

  53. 53
    gbear says:

    @Trollhattan: I recently saw a story about how the very first couple to be legally married in MA has now divorced. One of the women in the couple said she refers to herself as a hasbien now, which I thought was pretty cute.

  54. 54
    Eric U. says:

    @satby: I’m not sure what the criteria for “hearing of” a gay person is, but my definition would include hearing that someone I know is gay. And in that case, it was a lot more recent than the ’70s. My sister wouldn’t tell me she was gay, and still hasn’t, but she knows I know.

  55. 55
    Trollhattan says:


  56. 56
    the Conster says:

    Soon we’ll all be able to focus on what’s really important- some sex marriage.

  57. 57
    Tinare says:


    Awesome — congrats!

  58. 58
    Tinare says:


    Awesome — congrats!

  59. 59
    scav says:

    @Roger Moore: The only option I can think of is their own relationships and those of their coreligionists are so personally unfulfilling that they know everyone would jump ship if they thought there were viable options to the rut they joined because it’s how things are supposed to be. They’ve done everything they were told would make them happy, therefore they are happy. Don’t confuse them. Because options confuse them, especially when they raise the specter of something possibly missing in their lives, or the possibility they’re not perfect and living the dream. Hug the Rut. It’s safe and unthreatening, much like the menu options at Appleby’s.

  60. 60
    Tokyokie says:

    @jayjaybear: Congratulation! I’m happy you’re getting to do so without having to leave your home state. Which raises the question: Is gay marriage legal in Nevada yet?

  61. 61
    boatboy_srq says:


    I still don’t understand how gay marriage would do any of the following:
    1) Destroy hetero marriage
    2) Stop procreation

    SSM removes the necessity of cisgendered marriage for appearance: there’s no more need for a spouse of the opposite sex to appear on one’s arm at business functions, pick up the kids, show up in the vacation photos, host the dinner and cocktail parties, introduce to the boss/priest/teachers/coworkers/coaches, etc because suddenly a same-sex spouse is legally acceptable instead. So all those cisgendered couples who married for the respectability, tax advantages etc can now divorce so the beard can find someone more appropriate and the closet case can be with his/her partner.That’s really what they’re afraid of, and it’s most obvious in the closet cases like Haggard, Long, Rekers, Craig and the others: since their tiny minds can’t conceive that every marriage isn’t as false and hollow as theirs, they’re expecting millions of divorces as couples everywhere give up the necessity of their spouses and embrace their lovers publicly. All of which gives the big fat lie to the Reichwing insistence that it’s all about The Skripchurs and The Childrens, but it was never about either of those anyway.

  62. 62

    @the Conster: In the words of Robin WIlliams, ‘What’s all this fussing about same sex marriage? All marriage has the same old sex, that’s what marriage means!’

    It is still legal in PA to fire someone for being gay. So keep those wedding photos off the desk.

    Indeed the marriage battle is but one step

    Note: Many states PA included, have discrimination laws that specifically prohibit marital status discrimination, so the victories in the marriage fight have sidled us into a much stronger position on employment & housing even in the absence of a state ENDA.

    Which was…unanticipated by most movement thinkers.

    I’m proud to be part of the dissent on that. I concluded 20 years ago that domestic partnerships were ‘gay marriage’ and getting ‘marriage’ was going to be easier in the long run than fighting for the inclusion of ‘gay marriage’ in every statute, policy, etc.

    They said (movement insiders) that we were naive, crazy and unrealistic. They said that we had to accept incremental change and that my adult life would be a series of battles. They said legal equality would lag social acceptance.

    I’m not crying with joy because I was right, but because everything they said was wrong…and that makes my kid’s life better.

  63. 63
    Roger Moore says:

    The best explanation I’ve heard is that they see traditional marriage as a fundamentally unequal relationship. The man is supposed to be the powerful decision maker and breadwinner, and the woman is supposed to be the stay at home nurturer who looks after the kids. Their idea of marriage depends on and reinforces those strictly defined gender roles, which is why they flip out about men showing any stereotypical female characteristic or women showing any masculine one.

    A marriage between two people of the same gender undermines that. Either one of the two spouses must take on the “wrong” gender role, or the marriage must somehow manage to survive with one of the two gender roles unfilled. Either of those two possibilities is proof that traditional marriage isn’t the only possible way of making things work, which is what they desperately want to avoid.

  64. 64
    Suzanne says:

    @jayjaybear: Well, isn’t that AWESOME! Congratulations!

  65. 65
    jayjaybear says:

    Thanks, everyone! I’ve had Stanley Holloway singing in my head all day…

  66. 66
    burnspbesq says:

    Over? No, it’s not over. There is still a case pending in the Tenth Circuit (remember them? they’re the wonderful folks who gave us Hobby Lobby).

    There’s still likely to be a circuit split. Which means someone will be petitioning the Supreme Court for a writ of certiorari.

    It only takes four votes to get cert. Roberts, Alito, Scalia, Thomas.

    There is still far too much riding on how Anthony Kennedy feels on some random morning some time in the next couple of years.

    You may think you know how Kennedy’s going to come out, but I will remind you that a whole lot of people (yes, including me) couldn’t see a way for Scalia to get around his concurrence in Raich when it came time to look at the Affordable Care Act under the Commerce Clause.

    Oh my, isn’t it ironic that Cole is arguing that fidelity to Constitutional principle will surely carry the day, and I’m the one saying “not so fast, there, bucko.”

    ETA: Mazel tov, jayjaybear! Long life and happiness together!

  67. 67
    scav says:

    @Roger Moore: Divorce freaks them too, as did multi-racial marriage, so I’m not sure the maintenance of power relationships inside marriage explains it all. Visible options other than those they have made push some panic button in them. Don’t show that on TV! Don’t flaunt that relationship, Don’t force it down our throats, Don’t acknowledge there are other holidays in late December.

    Losing power, especially the power to define the “rules” for everyone is threatening to them, that is true. But there is something in them that loves having it all spelled out for them, all in the “good” book, all in the rut together, safety and happiness in monolithic herds.

  68. 68
    Calouste says:


    The procreation was a funny one, and it shows you how divorced (ha!) from reality these folks are that they didn’t realize that that would undermine their argument far more than support it. I don’t think they ever came up with a good answer to some straightforward questions that would come to any one who would think about that for a few seconds, like whether marriage would be disallowed for opposite-sex couples who know that one of them is infertile. Or whether a vasectomy would invalidate a marriage.

  69. 69
    Hal says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Look at the debates we see on TV. Bill Nye vs. Sippy Cup, or Ben Stein and other political people. Real Scientists are not going to appear on TV with nonsense about Al Gore being fat and therefor climate change isn’t real.

  70. 70
    pseudonymous in nc says:


    on the other side of the ledger, we have Rod Dreher’s lamentation, entitled “Christianity and History’s Ash Heap”.

    He talks about

    the sexual complementarity of marriage, which has been the basis of marriage in all places and in all times, until only two decades ago

    which shows an insistent blindness towards how the Leave It To Beaver model of marriage is at best a historical anomaly, and was mostly a myth even at the time.

  71. 71
    revrick says:

    Curious that the Gallup poll on this question dates back to 1996, because that’s when the United Church of Christ General Synod voted in favor of equality in marriage. But then those goofs ordained the first African-American, Lemuel Haynes, in 1785, the first woman, Antoinette Brown, in 1853, and the first openly gay man, Bill Johnson, in 1980.

  72. 72
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Calouste: Or gays who make the decision to have children because they can be in a legally recognized union. Yes, gay couples have been procreating for decades, but this makes it less complicated.

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