Well, it was a good pizza:
But it was a failure all the same because I couldn’t lay off the cheese. It was supposed to be a margherita pizza, which only reaches its full potential when the chef can show some restraint with the ingredients.
Next time, I’m going to apportion the cheese I think should go on the pizza on a separate plate and then distribute just half of that on the uncooked pie.
Please feel free to discuss whatever.
feebog
A pizza without enough cheese is like a kiss without enough tongue. Read that somewhere I think…
Comrade Mary
Definitions of “enough” for both tongue and cheese vary widely. Let me tell you about my ex-husband …
c u n d gulag
I always order pies with EXTRA cheese!
There’s no such thing, as too much cheese!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I could eat just the sauce with the melted cheese, and think it was delicious!
Belafon
Toyota is going to move its California office to Plano, TX. The local station said it was about a more favorable business climate and lower taxes/cost to live. They were touting that it would bring about 4,000 jobs. All I could think is that most of those jobs will be transfers from CA, and while we’ll get a nice construction project, it won’t add much overall. Plano would be the “most like CA as far as schools and neighbors” mostly because there’s already a lot of money there.
Southern Beale
Mother Jones finds out that Donald Sterling is a registered Republican.
Woopsies to the RW blogger who tried to claim he’s a Democrat.
Villago Delenda Est
@Southern Beale: Facts, schmacts. You can use facts to prove almost anything.
Violet
Looks yummy to me!
It’s a billion degrees here today. Okay, I’m exaggerating slightly. We’ve crossed the 90 degree threshold and it’s miserably humid and it’s merely a preview of what’s to come. I hate summer.
Punchy
2 step process to pizza discussions:
1) Is it deep dish? If yes, it rox.
2) Is it Gino’s East? If yes, it’s better than sex.
If answers to both 1) and 2) are “no”, then it’s shit pizza.
Just Some Fuckhead
It’s the dough that makes that pizza a health monstrosity.
Villago Delenda Est
Sonia: Boris, pizza without cheese is an empty experience.
Boris: Yes, but as empty experiences go, it’s one of the best.
peach flavored shampoo
Speaking of NBA, Dr. Jack Ramsay just kicked. RIP.
Ash Can
That looks like a lovely pizza. No “fail” about it.
@Belafon: I’m sure many will transfer, but I do have to wonder how many of those workers will be willing to trade California for Texas.
Betty Cracker
@Punchy: I pity anyone with such a narrow view of what constitutes good pizza. It’s like saying “XYZ Brand is the only good beer in the world,” and thus closing yourself off from an entire universe of beer possibilities. So sad!
Ash Can
@Betty Cracker: Don’t worry about it — more for us!
slag
Thank you, Betty, for explaining so eloquently what I’ve tried to explain to pizza chefs in the US many a time in my life. Apparently, “very light on the cheese” means only one and a half layers to some people.
You have good ingredients. Don’t waste them all on a big pile of gooey mess!
Villago Delenda Est
@Betty Cracker: I think we all can agree, however, that PBR hipness is tragic.
Amir Khalid
Paul Simon and his wife Edie Brickell got arrested after having a row at home.
Roger Moore
I thought a Pizza Margherita was supposed to have a smooth marinara-style sauce rather than big chunks of tomato. And yes, there’s supposed to be little enough cheese that you can see the sauce in the spaces between the cheese and the basil leaves. That said, the pizza you made was probably just fine to eat; it just wasn’t the exact style you had originally intended.
ranchandsyrup
You ever consider using a pizza stone instead of the pan? Really upped my pizza game.
Villago Delenda Est
@peach flavored shampoo: Oh, sad news indeed. Those ’77 Blazers were on fire.
JCJ
@peach flavored shampoo:
That is a bummer. I remember when he became the coach of the Indiana Pacers – they improved dramatically. No surprise he coached a champion in Portland. Wish we could trade Dr Jack for Donald Sterling.
jayjaybear
@Amir Khalid: When the radical priest comes to get them released, they’ll all be on the cover of Newsweek.
jayjaybear
@Amir Khalid: When the radical priest comes to get them released, they’ll all be on the cover of Newsweek.
jayjaybear
FYWP.
Howlin Wolfe
@c u n d gulag: Or too many exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!
Villago Delenda Est
@jayjaybear: Will be hard to do now that there is no longer a print Newsweek.
Trollhattan
@Villago Delenda Est:
Biggest scam played upon impressionable young beer consumers since the tragic Corona fad. Plus, most of the young and hip PBR swillers have never even seen “Blue Velvet.”
Brother Dingaling
Hey, don’t use grated mozzarella, get the balls of fresh mozz and put slices on. That’s how you get that margherita pizza cheese control.
Mike in NC
@Villago Delenda Est: “Facts are stupid things.” – St. Reagan
jayjaybear
@Villago Delenda Est: It’s part of the Daily Beast now, isn’t it? Wonder if Tina Brown will have the cultural awareness to use that headline…
Betty Cracker
@ranchandsyrup: We haven’t had much luck with stones, probably because our oven sucks? It’s not bad, it just doesn’t seem to work as well as a pan with large holes.
Amir Khalid
And Magic Johnson is now offering to buy the LA Clippers off that lovely man Donald Sterling, who was saying those nice things about him on that tape.
dmsilev
@Roger Moore: I think the traditional form uses slices of cheese rather than shreds, interleaving the cheese and the basil.
Belafon
@Ash Can: I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of the executives transfer. In Plano, they can get pretty good schools, and a house about 2.5 times as big as the one they have for the same price as California. I don’t think they all will, but there will be quite a few that do.
Tractarian
If that’s a pizza fail, I would love to see your pizza success.
Roger Moore
@ranchandsyrup:
I’ve switched to steel instead of stone. The pizza stones are nice and cheap, but I have yet to use one for very long before it broke and needed some kind of extra support to sit properly in the oven. The steels serve about the same function, but they don’t break if you look at them cross eyed. I’ve heard you can also use them as griddles on the stove, but I have not tested this.
Gin & Tonic
@Violet: I hate summer.
I met an older American woman in New Zealand once, who spent from early June to late October there every year, then went back to, IIRC, the Philly area. No summers for her.
scav
Most amazing pizza I ever had lacked both a lot of cheese and tomatoes altogether. Exploring all ends of the spectrum very much worth it.
Russ
In his new book, likely 2016 also-ran Rick Santorum exhorts his fellow conservatives to stop using the words “middle class” because “we don’t believe there are social or economic classes in America.” The book, called “Blue Collar Conservatives,” is out today.
H/T Gawker
TOP123
@Villago Delenda Est: Heh. Seconded.
Punchy
@Betty Cracker: Can’t shake the Chicago in me. It’s innate.
ranchandsyrup
@Betty Cracker: @Roger Moore: Interesting. The only stone I’ve ruined was due to my own idiocy — washed it with soap. Thanks for sharing yr experiences. I can get our oven up to around 525 or so and that may be the difference. We like thinner crusts — as thin as they can go and I had issues with thin crusts and the pan (maybe the holes on it weren’t big enough?).
ETA: RIP DJ Easy Rock. You and Rob Base made more people do the running man than anyone in history, I’d reckon.
Belafon
@Russ: Yep, there’s only rich, and those who serve the rich. See, I didn’t use the word class either.
Trollhattan
As to pizza, until a few years ago I too thought the crust had but one duty: transporting vast quantities of toppings to my mouth without mechanical failure during said transport. Then, a few years ago a Milanese pizza maker arrived in town with a wood-fired oven massive enough to require seismic certification and dough that becomes the most magical crust imaginable. Suddenly I no longer want uncountable layers, I want flavorful accompanyment to that heavenly crust. So yes, a Margherita becomes a very simple, elegant thing, worth fighting over the last slice during the height of tomato season.
Villago Delenda Est
@Russ: Yet when we question his devotion to an invisible sky buddy, he gets all upset.
? Martin
In other words, in an effort to bolster shareholder value, you’re going to downsize the dairy cost centers and boost productivity of front-end vegetables.
You are the Mitt Romney of pizza making.
different-church-lady
It’s home made pizza – quityerbitchin.
raven
@Gin & Tonic: We can’t have football til we get through it!
Villago Delenda Est
@Trollhattan: La Perla
Gin & Tonic
In other open-threaded news, a peaceful pro-Ukrainian rally today in Donetsk was attacked by pro-Russian thugs with clubs and bricks. At least 15 seriously injured. I’m sure some will say it served them right for going out so late wearing those short skirts.
Ben Cisco
Just spent a week hanging out with LittleMan (7) and TinyDancer (1).
HOLEE CRAP.
Missed out on most of the BJ happenings, and way too late to comment on the thread(s), but RareSanity, if you’re out there, I just want to say thanks for saying what you did – perfectly spoke to what’s been on my mind on the daily.
Villago Delenda Est
@? Martin: Ouch. That’s gotta hurt.
Patricia Kayden
@Southern Beale: Thought so. Not surprised at all.
? Martin
@Belafon:
Plano:Texas :: Irvine:California
My mom lived in Plano for a while. It’s pretty nice, aside from the weather and almost everything surrounding it. Okay, they’ll be happy so long as they never go outside.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gin & Tonic: Bob Romanov approves of this righteous attack on the forces of fascism.
Trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
Our experience is the stone needs a good half hour at least to reach oven temp, and the oven itself should be able to sustain 500+ degrees, evenly (brutal in mid-summer). Have a stone that fits in my “Big Green Egg” charcoal grill, and that bad boy can crank out a pizza in five minutes. They’re small, so a typical evening we’ll do three or four in less than half an hour.
The stone’s main functions seem to be drawing off moisture and maintaining high, even heat.
TOP123
Forget your worries about cheese.
Make. Pie. Thinner.
So sayeth me, as a Nueva Yorker. Opinions may vary, but we are right, ;)
Trollhattan
@? Martin:
Hopefully, stuff will blow up to keep them entertained in their new surroundings.
Steeplejack
@Amir Khalid:
Huh. I thought they were divorced years ago.
Fred
That pizza looks beautiful! And has been stated, There Is No Such Thing As Too Much CHEESE! It is a law of nature, right up there with gravity and the speed of light. Crust looks great too.
Belafon
@? Martin: When did she live there? Plano became landlocked about 10 years ago because of all of the construction around it. There’s a few more things to visit, especially if you like to spend money.
As for the summers, I can’t stand them and I grew up in Texas. If the entire country went solar and wind power, they would still need a natural gas plant just to keep up with air conditioning in the DFW area.
Violet
@? Martin: Apparently the current offices are in Torrance, CA. I looked it up and it’s right at the coast–a little inland. Plano is nowhere near a coastline. Depending on what lifestyle people like, Plano may or may not fit the bill. I think it would be hard for people who love the southern California weather and lifestyle to move to Plano.
scav
@Punchy: Pizza Apart would beg to differ. There is hope.
Roger Moore
@Betty Cracker:
The big thing is that you need to let the oven preheat for a long time for the stone to get up to temperature. The whole point of the stone is that it soaks up a lot of heat and transfers it to the bottom of the pizza quickly. Soaking up all that heat takes extra time compared to just heating up an ordinary oven. I usually preheat mine for an hour before baking.
different-church-lady
Today in “ooops.”
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Punchy:
Oh, Jebus, as if pizza first appeared in 1940’s Chicago rather than ancient Greece…
Violet
@scav: One of the best pizzas I made was without sauce (use olive oil) and had pears, blue cheese and arugula. Really yummy.
Belafon
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): My favorite part is that Chicago deep dish pizza was invented by a Texan.
jl
We need a compilation of reactionary fail on Sterling.
After a day of doofuses trying to tie Sterling to Democrats based on his dinky and very dated contributions, turns out he is a registered GOPer.
Kristol defended Sterling on basis of actions speak louder than words, which ignores fact that Sterling’s actions are of a piece with his words. The BJ thread earlier today on why the scheduled NAACP honor for Sterling is a fail has the links with info.
Sooner or later the GOP will have to deal with its racism and bigotry on all things not bitter white person. Sooner or later, the GOP will have to explain its outrageous behavior towards a duly elected Democratic president, namely Barack Obama. Which is it? Racism of and for itself? Racism to gin up support among white racists, and scared and bitter white racist fellow travelers, that constitute most of its voter base? Or racism as a cover for complete and utter refusal to cooperate with any Democratically controlled branch of government that is a destructive and undemocratic strategy of pure obstinate obstruction? Which one, or two or all three, is it?
A.
“Next time, I’m going to apportion the cheese I think should go on the pizza on a separate plate and then distribute just half of that on the uncooked pie.”
ha ! great idea for me.
scav
@Violet: That would be good (pears, blue cheese and a tiny sprinkle of really crispy bacon? is the next neuron), mine icon had fresh sage and walnuts. Apart has a good one with arugula.
Belafon
@Violet: They’re moving to Plano because they love money. The only reason to move from CA to TX is because you love money.
Roger Moore
@ranchandsyrup:
I’ve had a couple and bought one for my sister, and they all cracked down the middle. This may be because they all had small feet at the corners so the middle was unsupported; I suspect that one that was just flat and sat on an oven rack would be more durable. If you really want to clean one, the best approach is to leave it in the oven during the self-cleaning cycle; they can handle the heat and any stains will be burned off together with everything else.
NotMax
Enjoy it while you can. Love me some decent pizza but as the years have sped by it no longer loves me the day after (will spare you the intimate details), as am reminded the once or twice a year give in to a craving for it.
Violet
@Belafon: Or you don’t have any money and it’s cheaper to live in Texas.
Bob In Portland
Moderate politicians are being assassinated in eastern Ukraine. Who benefits from taking the middle away?
Amir Khalid
@Steeplejack:
You might be thinking of his previous wife,
Leia SkywalkerCarrie Fisher.Roger Moore
@Trollhattan:
For me the real revelation was when I understood that a pizza is basically a kind of hot, open-faced sandwich in which you bake the bread at the same time you’re heating the sandwich. I’ve always been a bread lover, so that naturally made me think that the crust was really important. It also got my creativity going, since it gave me a lot of ideas about non-traditional pizzas that might be worth trying.
ranchandsyrup
@Roger Moore: No footings on ours. For the most part, we just keep our in the oven on the lowest rack to avoid handling/breaking.
Ben Cisco
@TOP123: Any mention of thin pizza vs. not so much so demands this clip.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Moderate politicians? Like Volodymyr Rybak of Batkivshchyna, whose body was found, tortured, emasculated and drowned after he was grabbed by Russian special forces guys while he was trying to remove a Russian flag put up by separatists in Sloviansk? Those kind of moderates?
I don’t know, Bob, who benefits from taking him out?
beth
@Violet: That pizza sounds great – did you bake the arugula on the pizza or put it on later? I once made a great pizza with fig preserves, fresh mozzerella, prosciutto and arugla topped with shaved parmesan once out of the oven. It was delicious but I got a lot of “this isn’t really pizza” from my unimaginative husband. Sigh.
jl
@Bob In Portland:
” Who benefits from taking the middle away? ”
I think Russia. And Russia more likely to take middle away by assassination, rather the co-opting, than West.
Seems to me that Putin told the truth at the recent Geneva talks, when he said the Crimea take over was really necessary because he don’t want NATO up his ass. And that is consistent with what the Russians have said and done. Some Russian diplomat said that Russia wanted Ukraine to be a loose federation right after Crimea take over. I don’t see Russia’s said anything about the purported oppression of Russians in Moldova, even though there is a Russian dominated autonomous region with a Russian leader saying he wants help.
I think when Kerry stentorates and intones that the US insists on a united and independent Ukraine (under a legitimate government that the US likes as opposed the old stinky duly elected one that delegitimized itself because the US said so) should decide its own fate, Russia hears, “We are going to NATO you whereever we want, so suck it”. (edit: and I think Russia hears correctly.)
So, Russia will screw around with Ukraine to extent needed to make NATO expansion there politically very difficult.
Edit: to explain, why would Russia want some ‘middle’ when it wants a nice neat Russian dominated part next to it to keep NATO away from its borders?
beltane
@TOP123: I had the same thought but did not want to say anything.
In the town where my family lives in Italy, the pizza does not even have cheese most of the time. The tomato sauce used, however, is made from tomatoes that have a flavor I’ve never experienced from North American tomatoes, not even heirloom home-grown ones. I think it has something to do with all the volcanic ash in the soil.
Steeplejack
@Amir Khalid:
No, I remember that. I just thought he was a serial divorcé.
Roger Moore
@Bob In Portland:
Radicals who don’t want any solution short of secession. SATSQ.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid: Getting into a row with that wife might get her overprotective father in your face.
“I find your lack of fidelity…disturbing…”
Betty Cracker
@Trollhattan: We’ve talked about building an outdoor pizza oven. The reason stones don’t work out so well for us probably IS lack of proper heating time. No way am I gonna keep my oven dialed up to 550 for an hour of preheating. It’s too damn hot here for that, even in January.
raven
@Betty Cracker: Too hot to fish!
andy
@ranchandsyrup: I’ve heard a lot of nice things about baking steels, too. Of course, the best thing about steel is that it won’t ever shatter on you, either.
raven
Here’s the oven my man built in Bezerkely. The clay wasn’t permanent but, damn, it was good!
Roger Moore
@andy:
I really like mine, but I don’t think it’s radically better than a stone is. Not having to worry about it breaking is the big advantage.
catclub
@scav: “Most amazing pizza I ever had lacked both a lot of cheese and tomatoes altogether.”
My clock has lost both hands and chime, and only tells eternity.
low-tech cyclist
Margherita pizzas should be taken out and shot.
It’s not that they’re particularly bad; they’re OK but (IMHO, anyway) not great.
But it seems that the DC-area pizzerias that aren’t competing with Pizza Hut or Papa John’s have all decided that a margherita pizza is the acme of gourmet pizza, and that if they’ve got one, then are not only are they a gourmet pizzeria, but they have scaled the heights and need do no more.
Which means I’ve stopped going to highfalutin’ DC-area gourmet pizza places, because I’m inevitably disappointed by their lack of imagination. I’d rather just have Papa John’s.
This is a gourmet pizza place. I would add that their more innovative pizzas aren’t just interesting experiments; they’re flat-out great pizzas. (Though I am disappointed that they have dropped their thai pizza from their menu since my last trip out that way, because that was the best pizza I ever had, anywhere, ever.)
Chris
Every pizza I’ve ever disliked was one that overdosed on the cheese and crossed the line from “pizza” into “fondue.”
rikyrah
damn,
it looks good to me. I wouldn’t push away from the table.
Steeplejack
I have the windows open because of the nice weather, and I just heard someone down on the street yell, “What are you doing with your life?” Did not hear the answer, unfortunately.
Trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
I know just the guy to advise on the proj…no, no construction advice is worth resurrecting our former resident stalker.
Have seen a couple pro-quality outdoor pizza ovens and they’re amazing creations while combining two of my favorite things: food and fire (“fire!”). Both were at homes with full-on outdoor kitchens nicer than my lone indoor kitchen, so there’s that. But I’d be out there twelve months/year–weather be damned.
vtr
If you have a standard 22.5 in Weber charcoal grill, go to kettlepizza.com. I have no connection with the company, but I have one of their inexpensive devices, and it works very well. Gets up to ~ 900 F.
c u n d gulag
@Howlin Wolfe:
Like cheese, I can’t have enough !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!’s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TOP123
@Ben Cisco: Bravo.
raven
@Trollhattan: See my pic above.
WaterGirl
@Roger Moore: Weird. Where I come from, Pizza Margherita is thin slices of tomato (round) and basil and cheese. I’m not certain it has sauce at all.
I make a really good pizza – if I do say so myself. I make a very thin flat crust from scratch (no yeast), brushed lightly with olive oil, kalamata olives, roasted red pepper, sautéed onions and a combination of mozzarella and pepperjack cheese, with a bit of parmesan on top.
Baked on a pizza stone that’s been in the oven for an hour at 500 degrees. Takes about 7 minutes for the pizza to cook.
Edit: I go very light on the ingredients, including the cheese. Sometimes less is more.
Roger Moore
Where is Brick Oven Bill now that there’s a perfect topic for him?
bluefoot
@Roger Moore: My flat stone just sits on an over rack and has done quite well over the last 8 years or so. When not in use, it just sits on the bottom of the oven. Having the stone as a heat sink when I do other kinds of baking helps keep the oven temp constant when opening and closing the oven (for instance, when switching out sheets of cookies).
Also, I agree with all commenters that the stone needs to heat before adding pizza. I usually start preheating first, then start making the pizza. By the time I’ve done the prep and dressed the pizza, the stone is nice and toasty.
Anyone have good suggestions on learning to toss a pizza? I usually end up with a misshapen blob of dough and flour all over the kitchen when I try.
RANDOMMENTALITY
“Too much cheese”? Isn’t that some sort of oxymoron?
WaterGirl
@Roger Moore: My pizza stones are Pampered Chef and i’ve had them for at least a decade. I even bake my bread on the pizza stones, though I do use parchment paper on the stone for the bread and the pizza.
If you use parchment paper, the stones are incredibly easy to clean.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Someone here – I think maybe Martin – makes his pizzas on the grill. Then you don’t have to worry about heating the house!
Ben Cisco
@catclub: Your internets, they are ready for shipment.
jl
@andy: baking steels, would be a good name for an olde tymey wall of sound rock band.
Ben Cisco
@jl: Or a reggae band.
Roger Moore
@bluefoot:
I’m not a big fan of tossing. I think it’s one of those things you have to practice a lot to get any good at, and most home pizza cooks just aren’t going to do it enough to get good. The alternative technique I’ve seen recommended is to support the dough on your knuckles and stretch it, which seems to work pretty well.
catclub
@Ben Cisco: Look up ‘Grooks’ by Piet Hein
They stick in my mind.
chopper
@Roger Moore:
well, metal is a great conductor of heat. much more than stone. tho stone pulls away moisture so you’d want to go with a drier dough.
a good stone is pretty thick. lots of pizza stones you buy these days are thin and break easily.
best results: high quality pizza stone + moist, slow-risen-in-the-fridge dough + little bit of chopped tomatoes + chunks of fresh mozz + self-cleaning cycle in a modified oven (+oven mitts the length of your sleeves). you’ll have a pie in less than 2 minutes and it will be awesome.
The Pale Scot
Cheese? I think you’re using skim-milk cheese ’cause it’s browning, real cheese doesn’t do that, when I came across that in Jeorsey that pizzeria got the immediate ban hammer.
@beltane: beltane
The ultimate tomatoes come from a seaside town in Italy whose name I can’t remember,..
Oh, here it is, does your family live near San Marzano?
chopper
@Steeplejack:
the proper answer to the question should be ‘i wanna rock’ followed by a guitar chord so nasty it causes the questioner to fall off a balcony.
Roger Moore
@WaterGirl:
I never much bother cleaning them. Once they’ve cooled, I’ll wipe off burned flour and such, but anything that spills off the pizza is going to get burned to a crisp pretty quickly. As I said elsewhere, if you really want to remove stains from your stone, just leave it in the oven when you run the self-clean cycle and it will come out looking brand new.
The Pale Scot
@The Pale Scot: Edit, that doesn’t seem right.
IIRC, it’s a town on the coast with volcanic soil, the tomatoes are grown on steeply terraced hillsides exposed to the salt air.
catclub
@Roger Moore: “looking brand new. ”
and yet millions of years old.
Steeplejack (tablet)
@chopper:
Awesome.
Roger Moore
@chopper:
Best results depend on what you’re trying to make. I’m trying to make pizza in the modern California style, i.e. crust fairly thin in the middle and thicker with noticeable bubbles around the edges and interesting, not necessarily standard toppings. I find that I get good results with a medium moisture sourdough, hand stretching, sauce that’s had a chance to cook down some, and a hot oven with a pizza steel. I’m not quite willing to mod my oven to let me bake on the self-cleaning cycle, but I understand the temptation.
The Pale Scot
@The Pale Scot: Ok, It seems to be San Marzano Sul Sarno
The Pale Scot
@chopper: Twisted Sister has it covered.
Every Thurs. at the Arrow Lounge.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Gin, Rybak was a member of the Party of Regions and was opposed to the coup regime. He was against the region joining Russia but was for a federation, which happens to be Putin’s position. That’s the middle.
The minister of the interior has been sending teams into eastern Ukraine, allegedly to kidnap leaders, but I guess shooting them is pretty much the same.
Meanwhile, they’re marching in the streets in Kviv celebrating the 71st anniversary of the founding of the Galacian SS Waffen division, which not only fought on the side of the Nazis but helped to ethnically cleanse Russians, Jews and Poles.
Now the blood will be on your hands.
HelloRochester
@Betty Cracker – I give you credit as a Floridian for not using Velveeta. Take it easy on yourself.
Roger Moore
@catclub:
Not really. They’re pottery, not stone, so they’re probably less than a year old when you get them.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Wrong Volodymyr Rybak. The Rybak who was murdered was a town councilor, not the Party of Regions guy. The Rybak who is in Party of Regions is alive and well.
Why are we supposed to take you seriously if you get basic facts like that wrong? And you’ve gotten it wrong multiple times, and every time someone points out to you that you’ve got the wrong Rybak, you just double down and insist that it was the Party of Regions guy who was murdered, even though he fucking wasn’t, it was a different guy with the same name.
catclub
@Roger Moore: ah. I sit corrected.
Trollhattan
@Bob In Portland:
President Putin insists his military is fighting to protect civilians, targeting what he calls “terrorists and foreign extremists”.
Oopsie, that was Bashar al-Assad explaining why he’s barrel-bombing Aleppo. My bad.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
In fact, Bob, I’ll make it easy for you in case you can’t see the video on the page I linked to:
Volodymyr Rybak of the Horlivka town council
Volodymyr Rybak from the Party of Regions
Still going to claim that those are the same person?
Bob In Portland
@jl: We agree that Putin doesn’t want NATO up his ass. If Putin thought the best way to do that was to invade Ukraine he would have done it a month ago.
But that’s not what Putin wants, although reading the NY Times you may think that he wants to reconstitute the old Soviet Union. He wants nothing to do with the western Ukraine where the neo-Nazis are spoiling for a chance to kill Russians. He doesn’t want to have to police a country full of neo-Nazis. Putin wants a neutral Ukraine, with the east still connected but in a loose federation so as to moderate against a centralized fascist government.
Meanwhile, Putin doesn’t want to finance Ukraine’s Gazprom debt. The coup government is having trouble reconquering the east because the regular army won’t shoot fellow citizens. Neo-Nazis have no such inhibitions. Plus, apparently the Kiev coup government can’t feed its army.
Just realize what side the Americans put in power. If it seems too shocking, think about Pinochet or the Shah’s secret police, or the al Qaeda in Syria, or the death squads in El Salvador, or the 1965 coup in Indonesia. Sometimes the US does more than just write the list.
Here’s “our side” marching in the streets of Lviv over the weekend to celebrate the 71st anniversary of the founding of the Galacian 14th SS Waffen Brigade. Ayran enough for you?
Bob In Portland
@jl: We agree that Putin doesn’t want NATO up his ass. If Putin thought the best way to do that was to invade Ukraine he would have done it a month ago.
But that’s not what Putin wants, although reading the NY Times you may think that he wants to reconstitute the old Soviet Union. He wants nothing to do with the western Ukraine where the neo-Nazis are spoiling for a chance to kill Russians. He doesn’t want to have to police a country full of neo-Nazis. Putin wants a neutral Ukraine, with the east still connected but in a loose federation so as to moderate against a centralized fascist government.
Meanwhile, Putin doesn’t want to finance Ukraine’s Gazprom debt. The coup government is having trouble reconquering the east because the regular army won’t shoot fellow citizens. Neo-Nazis have no such inhibitions. Plus, apparently the Kiev coup government can’t feed its army.
Just realize what side the Americans put in power. If it seems too shocking, think about Pinochet or the Shah’s secret police, or the al Qaeda in Syria, or the death squads in El Salvador, or the 1965 coup in Indonesia. Sometimes the US does more than just write the list.
Here’s “our side” marching in the streets of Lviv over the weekend to celebrate the 71st anniversary of the founding of the Galacian 14th SS Waffen Brigade. Ayran enough for you?
Violet
@beth: I put the arugula on with everything else. I think I put it on first and the pear and cheese on after. That kept it from being quite as fried from direct heat from the oven. I used a baking stone and had made my own dough. It was really good.
Would work well as an appetizer for a cocktail party too. Cut it in smaller pieces and it’s fancy looking and not quite like the usual pizza so it wouldn’t look like you’d just ordered out.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
You can’t tell the difference between a guy in his 40s and a guy in his 70s and keep insisting that they’re the same person. Why, exactly, are we supposed to believe your other analysis if you can’t get basic facts right?
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: I’ve pointed that problem out to Bob before. It’s like the Republicans picking out any guy named Donald Sterling. “Volodymyr Rybak” is about as uncommon as “Walt Fisher.” But Bob’s ignorance of basic facts is boundless, as he sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts “la-la-la-la Nazis.” He doesn’t know the people, he doesn’t know the parties, he doesn’t know either of the relevant languages, he has no primary sources, and yet he goes on and on — one would think embarrassing himself in the process.
And yet there is no mention of the seizure of the diplomatically-accredited OSCE observer mission, the kidnapping of Simon Ostrovsky, the anti-Semitic TV station set up by the separatists, or any of the other actions of which they are publicly proud.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
Oh, I know Bob is going to slink away and then resurface in another thread to once again insist that it was Volodymyr Rybak from Party of Nations who was murdered instead of town councilman Volodymyr Rybak. And when it gets pointed out to him again that he’s wrong, he’ll just hide again and then resurface to spout the same lie.
But I think it’s important for lurkers and others to know definitively that Bob in Portland is talking out of his ass and has no fucking clue what’s going on since he can’t even figure out which politician was murdered.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Bob In Portland:
Seems to me that the truly middle position would be for an independent and neutral Ukraine- East Switzerland.
I suspect that the anti-Polish sentiment dates back to the 1920s, when Pilsudski sold out his Ukranian allies for peace between Moscow and Poland.
There’s been a rise of neo-nazi behavior throughout the former Warsaw Pact nations for years now, including Russia. They’re all antisemitic, but they’re also mostly all anti-German, too. Basically, they’re all anti-neighbor, since they all feel that the neighbors have screwed them over at one point or another. They aren’t necessarily wrong about the history (except for the history of the Jews inside their borders), but they’re wrong in the way they express their grievances.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Yes, you’re right. Two different guys. My bad.
Maybe two different Waffen SS divisions?
See?
At least you guys can admit that, right? You can admit to being on the Nazis’ side this time, can’t you?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: From the Deschenes Commission’s report:
No tribunal or commission has ever found guilt.
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
No, sorry. You don’t get off with a “my bad” after REPEATEDLY making the same mistake and basing your analysis on that mistake even after you were told REPEATEDLY that you had the wrong guy.
So, the question remains: if you’ve already been shown to be basing your analysis on false information, why are we supposed to believe anything you post is factual? Can you guarantee that those images have not been Photoshopped, or that they’re from the date you claim they are (because, again, you’ve been caught more than once claiming that something happened on a specific date, only for someone to figure out that you were off by several months)? Or are we just supposed to “trust you” that this time it’s all true, even when we already have several examples of your information not being true?
Sorry, Bob, but at this point if you told me that the sky was blue in Ukraine, I would have to double-check your facts, because your “facts” have been consistently wrong throughout this entire crisis.
Betty Cracker
@Bob In Portland: So you’re the guy pictured next to the “Godwin’s Law” entry. I thought it was Mr. Godwin!
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: Here’s your side, Bob.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/27/why-neocons-seek-to-destabilize-russia/
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/25/john-kerrys-sad-circle-to-deceit/
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/24/beneath-the-ukraine-crisis-shale-gas/
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/22/prepping-for-a-ukrainian-massacre/
So is Robert Parry a stooge of the Russians?
Yes, I admit I got two different politicians confused. Of course, the NY Times was getting confused about all those photos of Russians in eastern Ukraine which turned out to be fakes. As was John Kerry. Also confused about the fake anti-Jewish flyers. False flags all around.
You are on the side of the Nazis, Mnem, and Gin too. Enjoy.
Meanwhile, what is your solution, boys? Start a shooting war in eastern Ukraine? Get those ethnic Russians out of there? Have them skeedaddle back to Russia? Will that solve Ukraine’s problems? Yeah, maybe the shale project will eventually help cut Ukraine’s dependence on Russian gas. But that’s five or ten years down the road.
So what is your solution? Or do you enjoy the Cold War?
? Martin
@Belafon: Oh, about 20 years ago, so you’re right, it’s probably totally different now.
? Martin
@WaterGirl: Yep, it’s a little tricky at first, but once you get it down it’s pretty straightforward. Most decent barbecues will hit 600+ degrees, so you get a better result than you would in a conventional oven.
Bob In Portland
@Trollhattan: Syria was a main destination during the extraordinary rendition period of our history. His father and Monzer al-Kassar helped export lots of heroin into Europe and the US during our Iran-contra period. Lots of history there. Of course, with Afghanistan under our control there really is no need for those heroin labs in the Bekaa Valley.
So your point is that Putin is just like Assad? And the Assad family had been helping the sleaziest elements of our secret government until the House of Saud wanted to get rid of them. I’d say a better comparison would be Noriega, who was our SOB until he wasn’t.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: At least you admit you’re with the Nazis. What did your granddad do in the war?
chopper
@Bob In Portland:
lol, you have to realize what a clown you are, right?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: So why is your side attacking the “Jew-oligarchs,” exactly?
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: You don’t get to let me off anything.
You know you can do? You can relish in those parades of fascist youths. You can join hands with John McCain in another war or half-war. You can watch Ukraine put on the chains of the IMF. You can eat the lies of the State Department. You can cheer on your tax dollars being spent to help extend Big Oil’s reach into Ukraine.
Or, you can do what everyone else around here does. You can ignore what’s happening there. You seem to be good about that. I’d be curious to know why you’re so happy to embrace the neo-Nazis, but you and Gin seem to be unable to articulate your joy about them.
Maybe in a few years you’ll grudgingly admit that, yeah, maybe we shouldn’t have backed those guys, and maybe we didn’t get the truth, just like the Gulf of Tonkin, just like the weapons of mass destruction, just like we’re going into Afghanistan and staying for a decade to catch Osama, just like Assad did the poison gas, just like the Sandinistas are only a day’s drive from the Rio Grande.
Don’t trust me. Read Robert Parry.
Bob In Portland
@Gin & Tonic: Do you mean the Jewish-Moscovite mafia?
Why is there anti-Semitism throughout NATO? That’s your side, right? Yeah, anti-Semitism is easy to find. It’s what they used to call” the ignorant man’s socialism”.
Seems to me we just had a guy in the Midwest shoot a few people he thought were Jews, which would include our USA among the many lands that have anti-Semites roaming the streets.
The difference is that the Kiev coup regime came to power in the streets by the neo-Nazi bully boys who were supported by our State Dept. What do you think Brennan was doing in Kiev, and why did the CIA lie about his whereabouts before the Administration admitted it a day later? The fascists have four seats in the coup government. I would think that the oligarchs would have shed them by now, but instead they are being recruited into “national guard” units and being sent into eastern Ukraine.
At least admit you are rooting for the neo-Nazis, Gin.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: You’re the one rooting for the fascist Putin, Gospodin Romanov.
Bob In Portland
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): See my post at #151 regarding the difference between fascists in the streets and fascists in the government. A centralized fascist government can use the military and secret militarized units to kill or intimidate the opposition. Ukraine is on the same path that brought about the death squads, the disappeared. I am shocked at how easily the people here seem to gobble up what our government tells us about Ukraine.
I’d ask you to look at the Robert Parry consortium.com links.
Bob In Portland
@chopper: Don’t you have a hippie you need to punch?
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: “Bully boys,” that’s rich. It’s the pro-Ukrainians who are being beaten, kidnapped, tortured and killed. 15 hospitalized today in Donetsk, beaten by pro-Russian thugs with clubs and bricks during a peaceful rally. Who’s holding the OSCE observers, pro-Ukrainians, or pro-Russians? Who kidnapped Ostrovsky and why? Those aren’t secrets, the perpetrators are loud and proud. The guys being run by the GRU, who grabbed and killed Rybak, what do you think, Bob, did they cut off his dick before they killed him or after?
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
You’re happy and excited that pro-Russian death squads are murdering city councilmen in Ukranian cities. Why are you so happy to see Ukranians murdered, Bob? Why are you so eager to excuse their murderers and claim that anyone who’s horrified by death squads kidnapping and murdering minor Ukranian politicians are supporting neo-Nazis because shut up, that’s why?
The Contras weren’t associated with the government of Nicaragua — in fact, they were “freedom fighters” against it. So obviously the Contras’ crimes weren’t that bad because they weren’t government agents, amirite?
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: I’m not rooting for Putin. I’m rooting against our CIA, State Department and Big Oil companies killing people for profits. Big difference.
Were you rooting for Osama when the US stayed in Afghanistan for a decade? Were you rooting for Saddam when we invaded Iraq? I’m not sure if you were around for El Salvador or Nicaragua or Chile or Argentina or Brazil or Bolivia or Vietnam, but the US supported coups in all those countries, and our allies in all those countries were neo-Nazis and fascists. Do you understand that there’s a difference between being against our country killing people in our name and being for the target of our wrath?
I wonder why it is so hard for so many of you to recognize the same thing happening over and over?
I realize that Gin & Tonic speaks Ukrainian, which is not a foreign language generally studied here in the US, so my suspicion is that his grandfather probably immigrated to the US under the Congress For Freedom or one of the other CIA programs that imported Nazis and Nazi collaborators into the US after WWII as part of its Cold War strategy. I’ve asked him how he picked up Ukrainian and he won’t answer. I understand the children and grandchildren of racists may not have the wherewithal to separate themselves from their progenitors’ hatred.
If you are not familiar with Christopher Simpson’s BLOWBACK I suggest that you read it. What is happening now in Ukraine is part of that story.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: And your proof as to who killed whom? Did it come from the same sources as the verification of the anti-Semitic pamphlets? Or the Russian jets invading Ukrainian airspace? Or those pix of the guys who look like they’re from Duck Dynasty who were surely Russians except that the NY Times backed away a couple days later, very quietly. That kind of proof? Kerry was still touting the pictures after it was proven that they were false.
You do understand that propaganda is flying all around us?
I’m not sure how you arrived at your comparison of the contras with the rebels in the eastern Ukraine, but they were supported by OUR government, like the Pravy Sektor and all its incarnations are being supported by our State Department and CIA. And murdering politicians and social leaders has been a tactic by our allies in these dustups. Nuns, labor leaders. Why do you think Brennan was in Kiev chatting up the coup leaders? Think back. You probably did support the contras, didn’t you? At least at first. You probably supported the invasion of Iraq. At least at first. You probably weren’t out there marching against invading Iraq, were you?
There is a serious disconnect here at Balloon Juice. The people running the website are scrupulously avoiding the subject of Ukraine for the last few weeks. Weird, since saber-rattling against a nuclear power, and trying to destabilize it, can lead to, you know, Armageddon.
While Putin keeps saying he wants a loose federation that guarantees the rights of minorities what do we get in our media: Putin wants to conquer the world. Putin wants to reconstitute the old Soviet Union.
If our government and their mouthpieces lied to us about Vietnam, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Argentina and the other dozen or two wars/police actions/coups we’ve been involved in over the last half century, why do you presume you’re being told the truth this time? If Khadafy and Saddam and the rest were demonized before the US made its moves how are you so sure the same isn’t happening now?
Mnemosyne
@Bob In Portland:
Aaand … we’re done here. Obviously, the rot has gone too deep since you apparently are unable to admit what’s in front of your eyes: your preferred side is killing people.
I don’t even have to ask how you’re going to feel when you finally face the facts, because you never will. You’ll just spout off about how it’s all CIA lies because Gaddafi was really a good guy and neo-Nazis. You’re living in your own little fantasy world that no amount of factual information will ever penetrate.
And, yes, I fully expect you to be back here tomorrow or the next day talking about how Volodymyr Rybak from the Party of Regions was murdered totally proves the Russians are being framed by the CIA. Because, to you, facts no longer matter if they don’t fit into your US Bad, Russia Good narrative.
Bob In Portland
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, you’re done here. Haven’t answered my question. If the US government lied to the American people about Vietnam, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., why do you presume they are telling the truth this time?
No, you know the answer. You were fooled all those other times. Well, enjoy it.
And, of course, me admitting that I confused the two Volodymyr Rybaks (because it’s such a common name among politicians) wasn’t enough. No, you’ll ride that pony as long as you can.
Doesn’t matter. You won’t acknowledge the fascist nature of the coup government. You don’t have to. You only have to live with yourself.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bob In Portland: No, you’re rooting for Putin.
Shithead.
Bob In Portland
@Villago Delenda Est: No, you’re rooting for a Nazi regime put in power by the US through a coup.
And I realize when you can’t answer questions I pose to you you resort to cursing me.
You should by now understand the nature of Pravy Sektor and Svoboda and the rest. But you can’t admit it. You are supporting Nazis and fascists.
Read this.
Gin & Tonic
@Bob In Portland: The interesting thing about your every post, if interesting is the right word (and I suspect it may not be) is that you only ever quote one source, who gives no indication of ever having set foot in Ukraine or of being in direct contact with anyone on the ground in Ukraine, and gives no indication of having a reading knowledge of Russian, which would enable him to evaluate claims independently. One of the things about the modern world in a technologically sophisticated place like Ukraine is that there are myriad sources of information, in Russian, English and Ukrainian, updated multiple times daily. There are at least twenty well-placed, well-traveled Russian, Ukrainian, American, British and German journalists actually in eastern Ukraine as I type this, posting on Twitter many times a day, posting video on Vice or Storify or Hromadske or Espreso or Ukrainska Pravda.
I suppose in your fever dreams they might all be on the CIA payroll, but there are so many sources that I find it implausible that every single one could be bought and paid for. So you don’t have to listen to the US government or read the NY Times in this day and age. This isn’t Afghanistan, where you can’t get WiFi in any coffee shop in any city, this isn’t pre-Internet Nicaragua or Iran, this is a modern, open country where people can generally go where they want and write or film what they want. US passport holders don’t even need a visa, Bob. Go visit, it’s a wonderful country. See for yourself.
Ruckus
@Belafon:
They may be moving to TX because it’s closer to their plants in other parts of the country, and rent/purchase is far cheaper. OK it’s money. But the Toyota place in Torrance may also not be as big as they like/need and there is little/no room for them to grow. Given the current job climate I’d bet a large number of their employees will move. I wouldn’t but then I’ve been to TX a number of times and that was enough.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
I have a customer who has an outdoor pizza oven which will reach over 900 degrees which they bought prebuilt. They had to build the base it sits on and that was it. They plastered the outside to match the base, but didn’t really need to. But they spare little/no expense to make their outdoor party/pool area look and work very well. The walls are about a foot thick and it barely feels warm on the outside. Uses a lot less wood than I would have thought.
Ruckus
@Gin & Tonic:
I should have read all the way to the end before I posted. Then I would have seen that Boob from Portland was at it again. A one note, one man band who thinks he is playing symphonies while actually he is lip syncing with Vanilla Ice.