(John Deering via GoComics.com)
Professor Krugman, debating Ezra Klein’s big Vox opener as to whether politics makes us equally stupid:
… What Ezra does is cite research showing that people understand the world in ways that suit their tribal identities: in controlled experiments both conservatives and liberals systematically misread facts in a way that confirms their biases. And more information doesn’t help: people screen out or discount facts that don’t fit their worldview. Politics, as he says, makes us stupid.
But here’s the thing: the lived experience is that this effect is not, in fact, symmetric between liberals and conservatives..
… [L]et me pose this as a question: why are the two sides so asymmetric? People want to believe what suits their preconceptions, so why the big difference between left and right on the extent to which this desire trumps facts?
One possible answer would be that liberals and conservatives are very different kinds of people — that liberalism goes along with a skeptical, doubting — even self-doubting — frame of mind; “a liberal is someone who won’t take his own side in an argument.”
Another possible answer is that it’s institutional, that liberals don’t have the same kind of monolithic, oligarch-financed network of media organizations and think tanks as the right…
Me, I go with John Stuart Mill’s observation: Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
There was also a chapter in Trollope’s autobiography where he explained, sadly, that he found publishing a ‘bipartisan’ magazine impossible… because liberals would contribute to a publication that called itself conservative, but conservatives would angrily denounce queries about contributing (or even reading) any publication that had even the faintest taint of ‘liberalism’. So, in that sense, one has the idea that the situation hasn’t (dare we use the word) evolved over the last hundred and fifty years…
*******
Apart from staring into the abyss, what’s on the agenda for the day?
raven
Staying up until 11:30 on a weeknight is a killer but watching U Conn beat Kentucky was worth it. Where did everyone else go last night?
Suffern ACE
Work stress, work stress. I give up. 3 hours of sleep is enough, right? If so, I think I’ve found four hours of unproductive time that can be given back to my company.
raven
Mornin Joe wants to “choke Russia” off.
geg6
New University president visits campus today. A very big deal for us. Dressing a little nicer than usual to mark the occasion.
In other good news for my campus, they hired my preferred candidate for DAA (director of academic affairs). Kinda surprised because she has an MFA and so many of our faculty are PhDs in sciences, IT and engineering and are very snobby about their superiority to the liberal arts. But we’re told she was the overwhelming choice of faculty and staff. She gave a great interview and presentation. She’s young, energetic and full of ideas. Loved her!
raven
@geg6: Nice.
Botsplainer
At YMCA, sweating. Won my wife’s office brackets (nice $50 pot) and my office bracket ($350 pot).
That was exceptionally sweet. Had UCONN in the final game, needed to clear out a total UK homer.
Plus, as a lifelong Cards fan, I hatehatehate UK.
mai naem
This piece is pretty funny. The more inaccurate you are about the location of Ukraine the more likely you are to favor intervention. Also too, who the hell thinks Ukraine is in N.America or Africa. Seriously??? I understand somebody thinking Ukraine is in Europe but elswhere?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/
OzarkHillbilly
@mai naem: I can understand somebody thinking it is in Europe too. It is.
On the agenda for today: Keeping eyes open. Been up since midnight with charley horses in both legs. Begged the wife to just shoot me. Traitorous b*tch refused to. Some cockamamie thing about love. Finally managed to doze off about 3:30. Alarm went off at 4. Pulled my socks on and they started right back up.
gene108
Water heater sprung a leak yesterday. Plumber had to shut the water off to my place.
I’ve been without electricity for days, after some storms, but this is the first time not having running water.
Not having running water is much much harder to cope with.
Plumber should be coming with new water heater in the next hour or two.
MomSense
Didn’t Lakoff answer these questions?
gene108
@raven:
“Choke…off” didn’t work out well for David Caradine, maybe they should reconsider.
Mustang Bobby
A corollary to Mills’ observation is “Stupid people don’t know they’re stupid because if they did know they were stupid, they wouldn’t be stupid in the first place.”
Steeplejack (tablet)
@mai naem:
You’re not saying that Ukraine isn’t in Europe, are you?
Kevin
Klein’s opening really says it all. “Partisans on both sides don’t listen to reason, they just get more entrenched, even when presented with data”. His new venture is all data…so who is it for? The mushy, reasonable middle!
Danielx
One of the takeaways from Klein’s piece….
True dat. However, the moment of reckoning can be put off for quite some time if you a) slow roll policies based on good evidence, b) limit access to the polls for those who disagree with you and c) keep reinforcing the ideological basis of the policies based on bad evidence. Bad policy can and will persist at the state level in particular if legislators and voters disregard evidence due to ideological bias…which explains the persistence of abstinence-only sex education policies, for example.
gene108
What the Prof misses is right-wingers have managed to turn reality on its head, whereby to a conservative point of view every liberal idea has just made things worse; the ignoring of facts goes deeper on the Right than just blocking out what they do not wan to hear. They actively think what they believe makes things better and the opposition makes things worse.
Therefore his notion that liberals try to make things better is automatically proven false to right-wingers, because any action liberals take automatically makes things worse.
Amity Shlae’s did this with The Forgotten Man.
I think the bigger point of why this happens gets down to conservatives interpretation of religion*. They want their religious beliefs to be literally true and not open to debate.
They are primed from an early age to ignore facts and objective reasoning and replace it with what authority figures say must be true.
* I’m neither an atheist nor agnostic, but I’m not willing to chuck out what science says about the age of the Earth because Bishop Usher reckoned it was 6,000 years old, back in the 17th Century and Bishop Usher’s reckoning suits my biases more than radiometric dating.
Phylllis
Gussied up (including makeup!) for a presentation to the BCBS Foundation to pitch for funding for a social worker position at our middle and high school. Damn shame that we have to go begging to foundations for positions that other districts in our state take for granted.
Matt McIrvin
Or liberals and conservatives are equally tribally stupid, but by sheer happenstance liberals are usually right.
PurpleGirl
@Phylllis: I hope you get the grant and that it funds the position for longer than one year. I know you won’t have a decision today, but can you tell us if you get the grant in the near future.
Fort Geek
@raven: I was naming the neighbors’ cars for them. The entire neighborhood.
EWG Gestalt
Why are the results of liberal and conservative thinking so asymmetric? Because facts have a well-known liberal bias, there’s less to contradict the liberal’s worldview.
terraformer
I still believe that B. Russell’s quote remains apt:
Most conservatives today are their own – and alas, our own – worst enemies.
Baud
We have our 27% like anyone else. The big difference, I think, is less money and more diversity in our ranks.
We are also legitimately skeptical because our side is often inundated with false science and other lies from the right.
OzarkHillbilly
John Stewart goes Back to the Torture.
MattF
There is a loony left, but it has a habit of fragmenting and is generally incapable of keeping and exercising power. For some reason the slogan “No enemies to my left” makes leftists stay put ideologically, while “No enemies to my right” makes rightists rush to the right.
ETA: Of course, there have been exceptions to ‘incapable of keeping and exercising power.’ And I don’t excuse the historical sins of the left because it ‘means well.’
Regnad Kcin
more rain. what if they held an entire lacrosse season and never once got outside for practice?
as far as this goes
I do think it was adequately addressed decades ago.
Regnad Kcin
more rain. what if they held an entire lacrosse season and never once got outside for practice?
as far as this goes
I do think it was adequately addressed decades ago.
Elmo
@gene108:
I haven’t had muni water for ten years. On a well, every time you lose power you also lose running water. And you’re right, the water is far, far worse.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
Some folks call that “thinking” – as in examining a problem from various perspectives to get the best solution. But then again many Americans have also viewed being a ‘tard as a virtue.
NotMax
Amazing.
The Ancient Randonneur
THIS is how you give the haters the middle finger.
raven
Any of you NYC people interested in a film about “being a man” that will screen at Tribeca this weekend?
Jon Wiesman
I don’t know if this has been brought up before in a previous Open Thread, but I didn’t see it in THIS one so I thought I’d say something. I keep getting the sound for a commercial playing for Fairfield Inns and Suites when I refresh Balloon Juice. I can’t find the actual ad anywhere on the site but Google Chrome says this is the tab that the sound is coming from.
Sorry if this has been brought up before.
Rob in CT
I dunno about the rest of you, but my initial reaction to some study that confirms what I already think is usually “hmm, what’s the catch?” I’m suspicious. I don’t want smoke blown up my ass. This is a defense mechanism against confirmation bias. It does not always work, but sometimes it does.
I don’t see any evidence of this amongst conservatives. They just Know things, including lots of things that just ain’t so.
Keith G
So Prof Paul does indeed read Balloon-Juice.
The Thin Black Duke
@raven: Speaking of film, have you seen the documentary 25 feet from Stardom? It’s about the immensely talented but unjustly overlooked singers who backed up folks like Sting, the Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Elton John and others. It’s fascinating, heartbreaking and exhilarating.
WereBear
Objectively true. Liberals have this thing called The Scientific Method where we try something and see if it works. If it keeps working it becomes a Working Theorem and we try to reproduce it. Systems.
A conservative decides how they’d like things to be, gets Someone In Charge to say so, and then they all agree it is the best thing. It’s more like Rationalization.
raven
@The Thin Black Duke: I’m hoping the DVD is out. Brown Sugar is one of my all time favorites!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTNdFCKBlMk
rikyrah
Maddow reports that the ace Special Prosecutor for New York has joined the investigation against Governor Krispy Kreme. This is big news because the NJ Special Prosecutor was considered a bit ‘soft’
WaterGirl
@Baud:
That’s the second time in a week that someone has said that on BJ, not sure whether it was you both times or not.
Like any good IT person, I was willing to ignore it the first time, but once something shows up twice, you will likely see it again, so I’ll just ask.
What do you mean by We have our 27% like anyone else? What do you think that looks like? I just don’t get it at all. Not meaning to be critical; I just don’t understand it.
Rob in CT
@WaterGirl:
Crazification factor in US politics. Kung-Fu Monkey came up with it, referencing an election involving Alan Keyes. He got 27% of the vote…
Google it and it will be explained better than I can.
WaterGirl
@rikyrah: Is “soft” a synonym for being in Christie’s pocket?
WaterGirl
@Rob in CT: Thanks, but I know what the 27% is, I just don’t see how it applies to the left.
Comrade Mary
@raven: Where did I go last night? Dallas-Fort Worth, not Toronto, because weather.
Baud
@WaterGirl:
It wasn’t me the other time.
Liberal is a more malleable concept than conservative, so I guess you could define it to exclude the 27%. (No true Scotsman, etc.) But I think there are crazy liberals who subscribe to various conspiracy theories, for example. I’ve read that a good portion of anti-vaxers are urban liberals. Our 27% tends to be more diffuse than on the right, however.
D58826
According to the NRA since the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun, therefore we need more good guys with guns. Last night an LA cop (one of the good guys, sorta) was shot IN the police station while surrounded by other good guys with guns. Seems the NRA theory may need a bit work.
Gin & Tonic
@Baud: But I think there are crazy liberals who subscribe to various conspiracy theories
Thinking of our own Comrade Bob, maybe?
In case anyone is interested, here is an excellent back-tracing by The Interpreter of the story Bob was floating last night about American mercenaries in eastern Ukraine. Unsurprisingly, as with all his claims, it traces back to Russian propaganda. For a demonstration of how “a lie can get halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes,” this piece is great.
Stella B.
@Baud: actually, you are a bit more likely to be a conservative, if you are an anti-vaxxer, but I’m too lazy to look up the poll. Besides how many liberal legislators support anti-vax legislation? Sens. Harkin and Mikulski can roll about in the woo now and then, but they don’t go as far as anti-vaccine.
WaterGirl
@Baud: I will have to give this a bit more thought. But my initial response is that our crazy liberals and liberal anti-vaxers don’t add up to anywhere near 27% of the population. But what do I know…
Hmm. I wonder if they are 27% of liberals?
Baud
@Stella B.:
, you are a bit more likely to be a conservative, if you are an anti-vaxxer,
Mike in NC
John McCain? Maybe he slept on the plane and thought he was in Uruguay.
C.V. Danes
If I have to choose one stupid viewpoint over another, I’d rather choose the one based on a questioning attitude, forward thinking, and an evidence-based outlook than one defined by hate, fear, and close-mindedness.
But that’s just me. I’m stupid like that.
imonlylurking
@OzarkHillbilly: For the leg cramps:
Get a plastic spray bottle, a small one from the cosmetic section of the store is what I use. Add some Epsom Salts-I use about an inch in the bottom. Fill with water and shake until dissolved. Before bed-put a bit of lotion in your palm. Spray the epsom salt/water solution over it a couple of times. Mix together and apply to both calves. You may need to do this several times a day for a while, until your muscles get the magnesium they need. If you are having an actual cramp spray the solution directly onto the muscle. (The solution will dry on your skin and be itchy-that’s why I usually mix it with lotion. If you are having a severe cramp-like your foot trying to bend itself in half the wrong way-you need to get the magnesium into your muscle as quickly as possible.)
Baud
@Baud:
Blockquote fail. Can’t fix.
Gin & Tonic
Slavs are good at black humor. This here is pretty funny: thought bubble over her head says “If only he’d lasted longer than the People’s Republic of Donetsk” – thought bubble for him says “Sorry, dear, for being so quick.” I guess with that you might not even need to see the photo.
TheWumpus
Heh, the Mill quote isn’t quite right. It’s had the sting taken out of it.
The exact quote is: I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mustang Bobby: Dunning Kruger strikes again!
Villago Delenda Est
@D58826: The IMPORTANT thing about the NRA’s theory is that everyone have a gun. Because selling guns is what the NRA is all about.
The Red Pen
Nice to see that Mother Jones is checking people’s countertops.
The CEO of OKCupid (which took a stand against Brendan Eich at Mozilla) have a donation to an anti-gay, anti-choice Republican. They don’t seem to have bothered to contact the CEO for comment, so they simply leave it to speculation as to what his personal views on gay rights are (it would be irresponsible not to).
Given what OKCupid did in response to Eich’s appointment, I find it hard to believe that their CEO is anti-gay, but who knows? It’s not like you could reach him in any way.
celticdragonchick
@The Thin Black Duke:
I saw in the theater last fall. Good movie…and yes, heartbreaking at points.
gene108
@The Red Pen:
So we should be mad at O.K. Cupid now?
I don’t get it.
Why do liberals have to nit-pick to prove a flaw in people, who they generally support.
Matt McIrvin
@WaterGirl: One asymmetry is that the most extreme right-wingers make a great show of hating liberals, whereas the most extreme left-wingers make a great show of hating liberals.
Sometimes deservedly, but it can still backfire. I’ve seen Republicans approvingly citing Phil Ochs’ “Love Me, I’m A Liberal” without irony as a song about how liberals are the real racists.
The Red Pen
@gene108: I think this is Mother Jones jumping on a “both sides do it” bandwagon.
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
I think that’s the theory — every group is made up of about 1/3rd crazy people. So the overall population is about 1/3rd crazy, but that doesn’t mean that 27% of the overall population is crazy liberals, another 27% is crazy conservatives, etc.
And, yes, I’ve run into enough crazy home-birthers and anti-vaxxers and nutrition crazies to believe that 27 percent of liberals are crazy, just like every other population.
CaseyL
Liberals definitely have our own lunatic fringe.
We do have our own anti-vaxxers, within the bigger group that follows the woo when ir comes to healthcare (eat-herbs-to-cure-cancer, cover yourself with energy crystals – those folks). I’d also put the the 9-11 truthers in that category, along with totebaggers/firebaggers, and advocates for the non-cisgendered who see oppression in every use of a gender-specific pronoun.
That’s the thing, though: our lunatic fringe doesn’t coalesce around one overarching issue, so they’re harder to quanitfy. Just as liberals are a non-cohesive bunch, so is our lunatic fringe.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
On that related note…I find myself still utterly despondent that climate change debate is still at the level where all you need to do is invoke the magic words “Al Gore” and immediately the side crying about ‘alarmists’ and ‘hoaxers’ immediately wins the conversation. Just the level of total backsliding we’ve had on that issue is just…utterly and hopelessly deflating. And don’t get me started on how the NRA basically owns the entire fucking country either.
Fair Economist
Historically, there was a big “loony left” contingent. If you go back to the 60s and before, a significant portion of lefties were Communists, and for the most part they were pretty delusional. Really, they had the same problem as the god-botherers do: treating a flawed and out-of-date text as the gospel truth. (the Bible for the god-botherers and Marx’ writing for the Communists). But the collapse of the Soviet Union discredited the traditional Communists to such an extent that they’re essentially gone.
What is also new in recent history is the development of “loony libertarianism” and the unholy alliance/parasitism it’s formed with the god-botherers, who’ve always been with us. Austrian economics and Randian philosophy provide and excuse for the ultra-rich, and those who fantasize that they’ll become ultra-rich, to believe they are the so-much-better-than-everyone-else people they wish they were. They’ve essentially funding the think-tanks and media that have driven these ideas into wide-spread public belief.
Mnemosyne
@Fair Economist:
There’s also the fact that there’s a certain amount of overlap when you get at the extreme edges — it’s pretty hard to tell the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist once you get far out enough on the fringes because their anti-government beliefs start to converge. And there’s a fair amount of anti-medical looniness overlap between the ultra-Christianist Quiverfull folks and the far-left granola types.
TooManyJens
@WaterGirl:
Ha! I’ve gotten so many suspicious looks for saying that if you only see a computer problem once, it’s probably not worth trying to figure out. But it’s true, damn it.
J R in WV
@Elmo:
No, no no! Here in West Virginia well water, while it may be a tad sulphurous or muddy, perhaps a tiny bit contaminated, the water system water IS CONTAMINATED! No questions. And no one knows what the side effects of the contamination will be, are in fact.
We’re almost connected to the water system, I ran a 800 foot line down to the end of the new water line years ago. In case the Oil and Gas guys contaminate our aquifer. We live in an oil patch opened up back in the early 1900s.
But we still get all our water from the well we drilled 30 years ago. The pH is 8.2 and there’s no sign of biological contamination or chemical contamination. So when we get those phone calls about the water main broke and you are on a boil water advisory, we can ignore it.
And we didn’t have to worry about a smell and flush out our water system, which would be hundreds of gallons… there’s at least 1500 feet of 2 inch line between the public water system and this house… which would be just over 200 gallons according to the google. Plus how many times you flush it out.
Greg Koos
Immanuel Wallenstein writes a very convincing review of liberalism and conservatism in the 4th volume of the Modern World System. He views liberalism as an effort to find a center. It arose in the 18th century when the Rousseau inspired Jacobin revolutionists were in deep conflict with conservatives of two stripes, Burkean Conservatives who wished to hold back the flow of history because it was coming too fast and reactionary conservatives who demanded an order based upon legal prescriptions of their definition, usually based on religion and monarchism. Wallerstein notes the heirs of that argument were Metternich – the reactionary conservative and Bentham the liberal
kuvasz
A useful starting point would be John Dean’s book on Authoritarian personalities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatives_without_Conscience
TerryC
@OzarkHillbilly: I went through a cramping leg phase—hydrate constantly!