It’ll soon be here

I had a very important thought while driving yesterday but I forgot to post about it….do you think there’s any chance Hillary will bust out “Don’t Stop Thinking About Tomorrow” in 2016?

I know she didn’t use it in 2008 during the primary, but (a) that could be another of Mark Penn’s stupid decisions and (b) it’s more of a general election song IMHO.

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154 replies
  1. 1
    Schlemizel says:

    Only if she is running from South Detroit.

    Personally I have a hard time thinking of anything I care less about a candidate than what noise is in the background when they take the stage 45 minutes late for their rally appearance. But, thats just me.

  2. 2
    Schlemizel says:

    That probably sounded more snarky than I intended, sorry

  3. 3
    Hunter Gathers says:

    I can’t seem to shake the feeling that she’s going to go out of her way to tell non-white voters to go fuck themselves on a daily basis in a quixotic quest to win Arkansas and West Virginia.

    At the very least, we’ll get to watch a very heavily scripted ‘Sister Souljah’ scenario meant to placate the Villagers, who love nothing more than a POTUS candidate that puts ‘those people’ in their place.

  4. 4
    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader says:

    I’m guessing she will go with I’m Too Sexy For My Pantsuit this time.

  5. 5
    DougJ says:

    @Schlemizel:

    South Detroit is “Don’t Stop Believing” Different song.

  6. 6
    DougJ says:

    @Hunter Gathers:

    She’s not dumb enough to Sister Souljah, not without Mark Penn around.

  7. 7
    Anton Sirius says:

    Dammit, there’s a NewsMax headline saying Dick Morris says McConnell is in trouble. I guess he’s a lock for re-election now.

    As for HRC’s campaign song, I nominate Stevie’s Signed, Sealed, Delivered I’m Yours.

  8. 8
    Amir Khalid says:

    Isn’t Springsteen the music of choice for Democratic presidential candidates now?

  9. 9
    p.a. says:

    She’s too old, too conservative, only electoral experience was as a legislator, not executive; Clinton’s medical plan excepted (I know, same for Barry…).I’ll work and vote for her in the general, but I hope some stronger options present themselves. And I don’t think she’s a good campaigner.

  10. 10
    gian says:

    She will try to win Paul Ryan over and use rage against the machine
    ‘Take the power back’
    He has said they’re his favorite band

  11. 11
    gbear says:

    I hope she goes with ‘I Wanna Destroy You’ by the Soft Boys.

  12. 12
    🍀 Martin says:

    I’m going to go with Foster the People’s Pumped up Kicks to reaffirm her 2nd amendment bona-fides.

    (Man, I really hope she hires a decent campaign team and knocks off the craven appeals to the electorate)

  13. 13
    Tripod says:

    @DougJ:

    Then what the fuck was Bill’s 2008 primary idiocy in South Carolina?

  14. 14
    🍀 Martin says:

    @Amir Khalid: Yes. Not only does the boss active campaign for Democrats, but it really hits conservatives where they live. If Christie somehow comes out of this not in prison and wins the nom, Dems are going to run Springsteen wall-to-wall just to piss him off.

  15. 15
    Alison says:

    I’m holding out hope for “Bitch, Don’t Kill My Vibe”.

  16. 16
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Mark Penn is such a convenient clown to kick. It’s not like he didn’t earn that status, though, through pure stupidity. I mean, really, someone who can’t add up the number of delegates needed to win the nomination is a major political adviser?

    Then there was the entire “scroogled!” thing recently which just causes one either to laugh out loud or engage in a near endless series of facepalms.

  17. 17
    p.a. says:

    Campaign songs: Back in the Saddle Again. Auld Lang Syne. With Bill: Your Cheatin Heart or Every Breath You Take.

  18. 18
    DougJ says:

    @Tripod:

    It was stupid, and she won’t repeat it .

  19. 19
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Amir Khalid: Springsteen was once the music of choice for Ronald Reagan (“Born in the USA”), but that’s because Reagan’s attention span was so short that he only heard the chorus.

  20. 20
    🍀 Martin says:

    @DougJ: Bill hiring Mark Penn was stupid, and that decision was repeated.

  21. 21
    WaterGirl says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I will vote for her in the general if she’s the candidate, but I am having a hard time letting go of South Carolina, the racism in the campaign in general, and the sniper fire thing. The reason I can’t let it go is that it was all about integrity, which isn’t something that can be left by the wayside because some political hack tells you to. You either act with integrity, even when it’s not easy, or you don’t.

  22. 22
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @🍀 Martin: And Springsteen will aid and abet it on a close to 24/7 basis.

  23. 23
    Hunter Gathers says:

    @DougJ: You don’t remember how much of an ass she and her old man made of themselves after the New Hampshire primary. Big Dog embarrassed the fuck out of himself during the South Carolina primary, and the topper was Hill’s ‘hard working white people’ jab in West Virginia. And Penn was long gone by then.

    These two aren’t the masterful pols that we make them out to be. Big Dog never cracked 50 percent, was dumb enough to get caught with his pants down and his biggest policy legacy was deregulating Wall Street. Hill has the discipline that her old man lacks, but also seems to have the political instincts of a rotting corpse.

    What if she decides that holding the GOP share of the white vote to under 55% is more important than than motivating the minority vote? Especially if the polls show that she can’t loose?

  24. 24
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    I think she should go with “Lawyers Guns and Money” myself…

  25. 25
    DougJ says:

    @Hunter Gathers:

    Interesting points.

  26. 26
    gbear says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Has Obama ever used Born In The USA to rile up the teabaggers? Obama’s actually hip enough to know what the song is about. Most of his speeches during the last 3 years have been about changing what that song is about.

  27. 27
    Hunter Gathers says:

    @DougJ: Those aren’t even my main worries about her. I’m convinced that she’s going to start some kind of shooting war in the Middle East (she really, really wanted Obama to go into Libya), for no other reason than to prove that she’s tougher than Obambi.

  28. 28
    JasonF says:

    Fleetwood Mac? Really?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kt3Q00iJVU

    Substitute “the 70s” where appropriate, but that’s pretty much how I feel.

  29. 29
    Tripod says:

    @Hunter Gathers:

    About the most positive spin one could put on it is their determinative political experience was losing in 1980. Embracing a cynical shift right was a practical move then, but they’ve ossified politically since.

  30. 30
    gian says:

    @JasonF:
    Her husband’s campaign famously used it.

  31. 31
    Cassidy says:

    I’m just pissed no one will be playing 99 Problems. Sick of this catering to the Lawrence Welk generation.

  32. 32
    Baud says:

    SexyBack, by Justin Timberlake.

  33. 33
    Amir Khalid says:

    @gbear:
    As I recall, it was used to conclude the 2008 party convention. We Take Care Of Our Own, off Springsteen’s new album Wrecking Ball, was used quite a lot in 2012.

  34. 34
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @JasonF: Well the time to object to “Don’t Stop Thinking About Tomorrow” in that manner was back in the 90’s, when it was looped endlessly at the 1992 DNC.

    That aside, I love that clip, and I love James Earl Jones.

  35. 35
    Chyron HR says:

    How about:
    – Foreplay/Long Time
    – Fire on High
    – Thunder Island
    – Baker Street
    – Dark Star (CSN, not Grateful Dead)
    – Year of the Cat
    – Fire Lake
    – Sister Golden Hair
    – Deacon Blues
    – Suffragette City
    – Dark Star (also the Dead’s version)
    – September
    – Since You Been Gone

    Wait, this is the “golden oldies” thread, right?

  36. 36
    different-church-lady says:

    I had a very important thought while driving yesterday but I forgot to post about it….

    Yesterday’s gone. Yesterday’s gone…

  37. 37
    Belafon says:

    @Hunter Gathers: why would she decide to do something based on going after just whites especially knowing that Democrats are not going to win whites anyway? We might as well speculate on whether she prefers Bill in boxers or briefs.

  38. 38
    different-church-lady says:

    @Chyron HR: SUMMER BREEZE!!!

  39. 39
  40. 40
    doug r says:

    Can we focus on 2014 first?

  41. 41
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    Am I the only one who finds it odd that the Republicans have two relatively young Hispanics who may run in ’16 while we Democrats have none? Jeezus, Hillary Clinton? Maybe she can coax her BFF, Joe Lieberman, to run as her Veep.

  42. 42
    Tripod says:

    Classic rock is just a re-branded oldies station. Same market though – old men.

  43. 43
    MikeJ says:

    I think she should go with 4:33.

  44. 44
    gian says:

    I loved the battle hymn of the Republic at Obama’s second inaugural
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pron8QO6wac

  45. 45
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @different-church-lady: WIN!

  46. 46
    Tripod says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Shhh…. she’s a can’t miss, just like 2008.

  47. 47
    policomic says:

    “Landslide.” It keeps Fleetwood Mac in the family, the title works for a win, everything else about the song works for a loss.

  48. 48
    gbear says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: That argument falls apart the moment you actually name those two relatively young hispanic candidates.

  49. 49
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Belafon:

    We might as well speculate on whether she prefers Bill in boxers or briefs.

    Unfortunately, MTV no longer being what it once was, no one will ask her that.

  50. 50
    annagranfors says:

    I’d hope that Fleetwood Mac would protest her usage of the song were she to utilize it.

    And frankly, the relatively recent usage of pop/rock songs as campaign and/or victory tools always came across to me as cringemaking.

    My only exception would be using something like the Descendents’ “Wienerschnitzel”. These are the perfect times for such a meisterwerke.

  51. 51
    Anoniminous says:

    Combine Lawrence Welk AND the hip sound of Loggins and Messina all the kids are crazy about:

    One Toke Over the Line.

    It’s a WIN! I tells ya.

  52. 52
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Chyron HR: “Drink scotch whiskey all night long
    And die behind the wheel
    They’ve got a name for the winners in the world
    I want a name when I lose
    They call Alabama the Crimson Tide
    Call me Deacon Blues”

  53. 53
    🍀 Martin says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    while we Democrats have none?

    What do you mean none? This far out from 2008, nobody would have believed that Obama would run, let alone have a shot at winning.

    We have no idea who is going to run.

  54. 54
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Anoniminous: That is one truly bizarre clip. I scratch my head every time I see it.

  55. 55
    danielx says:

    Don’t want to pee on anyone’s parade, but Rumours was released in 1977 which was…yes, thirty-seven years ago. I detested it at the time since I’d just gone through a very bad breakup and listening to the song lyrics was salt in numerous open wounds. Musically the album as a whole is a great piece of work and still very listenable, but (saying this as a boomer myself) classic rock anthem(s) used as campaign pieces are getting about as old and tiresome as boomers and boomer pretensions. Not to mention wingnuts trying to claim as conservative anthems…my first thought when I read about Jonah Goldberg (aka Jabba the Hack) claiming ‘Won’t Get Fooled Again’ as a conservative hymn was that Roger Daltrey and Peter Townsend were going to be on the next flight to the States so they could look up Jonah and piss on his shoes.

  56. 56
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @annagranfors: Fleetwood Mac was DELIGHTED that Bill chose that song…and, btw, asked permission first.

    Hillary will do the same. Ask first, and probably get permission.

    On the other hand, Repthuglicans are CONSTANTLY using pop performances without asking first. Reagan and Springsteen has been alluded to (Springsteen would NOT give permission for Reagan’s use of it) then there was Heart and “Barracuda” that the Palin bimbo used without permission.

  57. 57
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    @gbear:

    I’m not saying that Rubio and Cruz are anywhere close to being presidential timber. I am saying that it’s more than a bit ironic that the party that is investing so much hope in the Hispanic demographic hasn’t laid the groundwork to run a Hispanic in ’16. I heard an interview with Texas’ Joaquin Castro and it was mentioned that 60% of eligible Hispanics in Texas don’t turn out to vote. Running a snow white Boomer won’t exactly energize them, will it?

  58. 58
    annagranfors says:

    @ Villago Delenda Est: Yeah, but that was 22 years ago; they were drug-addled, and (presumably) a lot smarter now. And actually, so are the Descendents, so they’d probably tell her to piss off, too.

  59. 59
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    @🍀 Martin:

    Obama delivered the keynote speech at the 2004 convention. After hearing the speech I figured that he’d be a candidate sooner rather than later.

    You may have no idea who’s going to run. Okay. I have an idea who’s looking for a coronation.

  60. 60
    GregB says:

    I am going to recommend folks campaigning in New Hampshire to use Scissor Fight’s Weed, Guns and Axes for their theme music.

  61. 61
    annagranfors says:

    Or (in keeping with DougJ’s Costello obsession; mine too), how about “Beyond Belief”?

  62. 62
    🍀 Martin says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    I have an idea who’s looking for a coronation.

    How is that different from the runup to the 2008 election. Hillary was looking for a coronation then and we didn’t give it to her. She’ll need to earn the nom same as last time.

  63. 63
    Jewish Steel says:

    When the Clinton campaign contacts me, as of course they will, I will advise them to pick a different Fleetwood Mac number.

  64. 64
    Anoniminous says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    File it under “Existential Surrealism.”

  65. 65
    Dave says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: It reminds me of Karl Rove on the night of the 2012 election. The thing about Ohio and how sure he was right. And the entire time the election had already been called. Ohio didn’t matter. It was surreal because they were pursuing it and it was immaterial. Even if he had been correct and Ohio went to Romney and all the remaining uncertain states Obama had already cleared the bar for winning. And I saw other anchors discussing it like it mattered and no one was mentioning hey Obama won. -*

  66. 66
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Dave: At that point it was sort of like the Denver Broncos desperately scoring a touchdown to avoid being shut out in the Super Bowl.

    A face saving mechanism. So naturally, that’s all Faux could talk about.

  67. 67
    Bob In Portland says:

    @gbear: Or “You’ll Have To Go Sideways”. Or “Kingdom of Love”.

  68. 68
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    Todd Rundgren We Gotta Get You A Woman

  69. 69
    Bob In Portland says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: How about “My Shit’s Fucked Up”? Or “I Was In The House When The House Burned Down”?

  70. 70
    RepubAnon says:

    @danielx: I’d like to see “We’re not going to take it, anymore for the Democrats to use against the Koch brothers.

  71. 71
    Bob In Portland says:

    Actually, Elvis Costello’s “Lip Service”. It’s hostile, and it’s pretty much what Americans get from Dems in the White House.

  72. 72
    cleek says:

    @Jewish Steel:
    heh.

    “What Makes You Think You’re The One” or “Never Goin Back Again” might work, too.

  73. 73
    Jewish Steel says:

    @cleek: Ha! Even better.

  74. 74
    piratedan says:

    just to spite everyone, I’d be impressed if she went with the Pixies “Here Comes Your Man”

  75. 75
    Elizabelle says:

    My biggest concern is that Hillary and Hillary’s potential candidacy is sucking all the air out of the room.

    What if she doesn’t run? Or somehow can’t?

    We need to see other appealing Democratic candidates, starting a few months ago.

    We keep seeing the Republican pageant contestants. It’s all that keeps the Village horse race set enthralled.

    Where are the Democrats?

  76. 76
    Suzanne says:

    Her song last time was Petty’s “American Girl”.
    “God, it’s so painful, something that’s so close/And still so far out of reach.”

    I would go with “Beautiful Day”. I have always loved R.E.M.’s “These Days”.

  77. 77
    Baud says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Where are the Democrats?

    Probably trying to get Democratic voters to pay attention to 2014.

  78. 78
    mclaren says:

    Hillary’s campaign song should be “This World” by Clan of Xymox:

    They say “trust on us”

    They say “our time will come”

    And “your dreams will come alive”

    One day, we will find

    No way to cross this line

    It’s where our worlds collide

    This world is not made for you and I

    It’s build on blood and a million lies

    Jeb Bush’s campaign song should, of course, be “Sympathy For the Devil” by the Rolling Stones:

    Allow me to introduce myself

    I’m a man of wealth and taste…

  79. 79
    eemom says:

    I hated that fucking song when it was played 24/7 in 1977, hated it again in 1992, and have hated it without interruption ever since.

    GOD, what a simpleminded dumbass song.

    As for Hillz, meh. I’d rather Joe.

  80. 80
    Anton Sirius says:

    @gbear:

    I’m not saying that Rubio and Cruz are anywhere close to being presidential timber. I am saying that it’s more than a bit ironic that the party that is investing so much hope in the Hispanic demographic hasn’t laid the groundwork to run a Hispanic in ’16.

    Other than Julian Castro giving the keynote speech at the 2012 convention (the same slot Obama got in 2004)?

  81. 81
    Baud says:

    Hillary and Jeb! are going to divide up Bieber and Nickelback between them. Suck on it, haters.

  82. 82
    🍀 Martin says:

    OT: Ellen DeGeneres should replace Letterman. Nobody else should even be considered.

  83. 83
    Suzanne says:

    Don’t understand the Hillary cynicism on this thread. If she wins, she will be a pretty good President, I imagine. Not great. Not incredible. But all right. Better than mediocre. I, personally, am holding onto the hate to direct it at the right people. Because whomever the Rethugs and the Glibertarians put up will be orders of magnitude worse.

  84. 84
    gian says:

    @Suzanne:
    Dukakis used U2 where the streets have no name.
    I want to run I want to hide.

  85. 85
    Suzanne says:

    @gian: Edwards used “Pride (In the Name of Love)”. About the MLK assassination. AWKWARD.

  86. 86
    Anton Sirius says:

    @Jewish Steel: Peter Green. Such a waste.

  87. 87
    eemom says:

    @cleek:

    “Never Goin Back Again”

    Much better. One of the best by FM.

  88. 88
    tybee says:

    I’m your top prime cut of meat, I’m your choice
    I wanna be elected
    I’m Yankee doodle dandy in a gold Rolls Royce
    I wanna be elected
    Kids want a savior, don’t need a fake
    I wanna be elected
    We’re all gonna rock to the rules that I make
    I wanna be elected

    I never lied to you, I’ve always been cool
    I wanna be elected
    I gotta get the vote, and I told you ’bout school
    I wanna be elected

    Hallelujah, I wanna be selected
    Everyone in the United States of America

    We’re gonna win this one, take the country by storm
    We’re gonna be elected
    You and me together, young and strong
    We’re gonna be elected
    Respected, selected, call collected
    I wanna be elected

    And if I am elected
    I promise the formation of a new party
    A third party, the wild party
    I know we have problems
    We got problems right here in central city
    We have problems on the north, south, east and west
    New York city, Saint Louis, Philadelphia, Los Angeles
    Detroit, Chicago, everybody has problems
    And personally I don’t care…

  89. 89
    Anybodybuther2016 says:

    @DougJ: She’s not dumb enough.

    I beg to differ.

  90. 90
    Anybodybuther2016 says:

    She’s not dumb enough.

    I beg to differ.

  91. 91
    IowaOldLady says:

    I vote for going retro and using “This Land Is Your Land.”

  92. 92
    FlipYrWhig says:

    Maybe she could take Don’t Stop Thinking About Tomorrow and mash it up with We Can’t Stop.

  93. 93
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @eemom: “Second Hand News” for Bubba?

    @Suzanne: Consider that there are still people right here on this pragmatic liberal blog who harbor the hate-fantasy that Obama is a secret Repubilcan, to the right of Reagan! in the memorable words of a commenter whose nym I’ve forgotten. For all, or at least many, of the reasons people cite, I’m hardly in love with Hillary, and I’m at a point where the sight and sound of her husband makes reach for the remote. But all the polling indicates she’s the Dems’ strongest candidate. I’d rather have President Warren or Sherrod Brown, but neither of them is running and I don’t know how strong they’d be nationally. My hunch is she’d be better than her husband and not as good as Obama, and I do worry about her hawkishness, but on domestic issues I think she’d be pretty solid.

  94. 94
    Suzanne says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Concur. She is not my dream candidate. But I have lived through administrations of my NIGHTMARE candidate winning, and I am pragmatic enough to accept all right in order to avoid that shit.

  95. 95
    askew says:

    Boy do I hope not. She isn’t Bill for better or worse and she should try to stand on her own two feet and her own record and create her own movement. Not just piggyback off nostalgia for Bill’s presidency.

  96. 96
    🍀 Martin says:

    @Suzanne: I don’t oppose her winning, but considering all she had going in her favor in 2008, she really cocked it up badly. And they were all unforced errors. She hired a shit team, she managed them poorly, she herself took a cynical view toward the electorate.

    I’m skeptical that she can overcome those things, because I think they’re just who she is, but I’ll be happy to be proven wrong. So, my concern is that she won’t have changed, she’ll win the nom and then run a terrible general. Hunter Gathers nailed it all up above.

    I can think of several Democratic women that I think are as good or better candidates than Clinton. I’m not convinced that Clinton’s name recognition and term as SecState are sufficient to win if we get a poorly run campaign in the balance. The single thing that won Obama the election – both the primary and the general, was competent execution from him and his team. When the Wright stuff came out, everyone wrote him off. Most candidates and teams would have turned against Wright and basically given credibility to the attack. Obama didn’t, and he came out stronger as a result. I just don’t see Clinton doing that sort of thing, and there will be situations needing it.

    So yeah, I’m skeptical, and I think I have good reason to be.

  97. 97
    askew says:

    @DougJ:

    I’ve seen zero proof you are right about that. She blew that dog whistle all by herself in 2008. Not as loudly as her husband and her staff and surrogates, but she definitely blew it.

    She spent a lot of time talking about “Real Virginia” and white working-class voters whose votes apparently count 2x more than minority votes.

  98. 98
    Anton Sirius says:

    @🍀 Martin:

    When the Wright stuff came out, everyone wrote him off.

    That’s total crap, unless by “everyone” you mean “a bunch of no-nothing hacks living in the Beltway Bubble”.

  99. 99
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Anton Sirius: It’s the primary, McConnell running against Bevin, who is a total shitshow of a Tea Partier. So maybe that means Bevin wins GOP primary? He has made a lot of unforced errors campaigning that will hurt him in the general.

  100. 100
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Hunter Gathers: You know what, she better fucking not. Progressive Democrats are successfully fighting for Kentucky, a very backward and racist place (despite how beautiful it is, heartbreakingly so) and doing so successfully and doing so without rejecting Obama or a progressive agenda (but don’t mention gun control). They don’t really mention Obama much but they’ve embraced ACA under another name. So it is possible to stay silent on such issues, not appeal to people’s basest natures, and still claw back in a rural, white Appalachian state.

  101. 101
    Schlemizel says:

    @DougJ: Oh crap, you’re right. The rest of my comment stands though

  102. 102
    Baud says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    They don’t really mention Obama much but they’ve embraced ACA under another name.

    I’m anxiously awaiting the pie fight when Hillary calls Obamacare the ACA, or calls the ACA Obamacare. Either way, it’ll mean something worth fighting over.

  103. 103
    IowaOldLady says:

    I have to admit I was mad when HC dismissed my vote in the 2008 primary season because it came in a caucus (by means of counting noses) rather than a primary (by means of a ballot). There are problems with the caucus system, but I resent being summarily disenfranchised.

    Having said that, I’ll vote for her with no problem.

  104. 104
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @eemom:

    GOD, what a simpleminded dumbass song.

    It’s Boomer LCD.

  105. 105
    maeve says:

    I’m goin with “The Bitch is Back” – and I mean it in the best possible way (non-sarcastically) – with this performance at her rallies

    http://youtu.be/Rig3tgyYiAM

  106. 106
    WereBear says:

    At this point, Hillary Clinton is like the big name star you hire for the movie to make sure it opens big that first weekend.

  107. 107
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Where are the Democrats?

    Doesn’t actually matter. If Mrs. Clinton doesn’t pull up to the starting line, somebody would emerge… a small-state governor, a one-term senator, you don’t need to have ever heard of them. And chances are they would win.

    A particular candidate doesn’t matter a whole lot unless he’s an incumbent, and then you get a referendum on the incumbent. An extremist candidate (‘extremist’ for this country, at least) probably loses a few points at the margins. But people vote party — even ‘independent’s vote party. And economy. And war-and-peace. Most everything else tails off at that point.

  108. 108
    gene108 says:

    @p.a.:

    She’s too old, too conservative,

    She was to the left of Obama on gun-control and gay marriage in 2008.

    She also started off her legal career working for theChildren’s Defense Fund and seems to have been active in the organization.

    I think a lot of folks hold the Iraq war vote against her. I know I did.

    But looking back, when liberals wanted Teleco heads to roll, when the warrantless wire tapping of Bush & Co became public, Obama voted to give the telecommunication companies immunity. He made made some stearntly worded statements about how it was bad, but in the end he didn’t rock the boat.

    EDIT: In short, in 2002, Obama was in a relatively safe position to speak out against the Iraq war. When the political stakes were higher, in 2008, and he was in the Senate and running for President he backed the Security State.

    I do not think you can draw a lot about Hillary’s Iraq War vote as an extension of her politics. Sec. of State Kerry, who voted against the first Gulf War, and made his name as a war protestor, voted in favor of the second Iraq War.

    Why?

    Because the politics changed dramatically in 2002, such that Saxby Chambliss could run ads against Vietnam vet Max Cleland questioning his patriotism, because Cleland voted against the USA PATRIOT Act.

    A lot of folks in fly over country lost their collective shit after 9/11/01 and Bush & Co used that fear and prejudice to poison the political waters for those in D.C. politics.

  109. 109
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Hunter Gathers:

    What if she decides that holding the GOP share of the white vote to under 55% is more important than than motivating the minority vote?

    And it’s already too late for that. Be realistic: how many white voters do the Dems really “get back” running a white candidate?

    Glibertarians like Greenwald will vote for any GOPer who isn’t too tooooo obnoxious about social conservatism. IOW GWB yes, “legitimate rape”, no.

    Those super lefties who campaigned for Obama and then turned on him after he was inaugurated because he wasn’t pure were a total nothingburger in 2012. Jill Stein, how many votes did she get? Fuck them. They were replaced in GOTV efforts by real Democrats, anyway.

    Those who were too old and feeble to realize the D candidate was a blah in 2008 who swung to GOP in 2012? Well, if you were 82 and housebound in 2008 are you still alive in 2016? I mean, I think that’s a fair question.

    And as far as the GOP increasing their under 65 white voter share a few points through blatant racism, don’t let the door hit you where the good lord split you. They aren’t coming back because their illusion that other Dems shared their white supremacist worldview has been shattered forever. Some of them may turn into non-voters because they don’t like rich guys either. Good.

  110. 110
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Hunter Gathers:

    Those aren’t even my main worries about her. I’m convinced that she’s going to start some kind of shooting war in the Middle East (she really, really wanted Obama to go into Libya), for no other reason than to prove that she’s tougher than Obambi. that’s just her nature.

  111. 111
    Josie says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: Our impressive young Hispanics, the Castro brothers are actually accomplishing things as a representative and a mayor so that they will be able to follow up when Hillary is done. Hispanics in Texas love the Clintons, especially Hillary. When she campaigned here in the primary, they turned out in droves for her. I can’t explain why, but there it is. I suspect she will campaign here with one or both of the Castro brothers at her side and raise the percentage of Hispanic votes quite a bit.

  112. 112
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Davis X. Machina: Exactly. The Dems have a decent bench, a coherent vision, a workable coalition. We don’t need some ubermensch to win an election. (We do need someone who knows the fuck how to campaign, though, because you cannot win without a ground game. It would be suicide for the Dem Party not to re-up their OfA veterans on this.)

  113. 113
    JoyceH says:

    @Suzanne:

    Don’t understand the Hillary cynicism on this thread. If she wins, she will be a pretty good President, I imagine. Not great. Not incredible. But all right. Better than mediocre.

    I don’t consider myself a Hillary cynic, though I was an Obama girl from early on in 2008. But I gotta say that what really irks me these days is the rock-bottom certainty of the commentariate that Hillary is GOING to run and is GOING to be the nominee. Uh, guys? Remember us? The Voters? The Little People? How about not telling us who our nominee is before any of us cast a vote?

  114. 114
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @askew:

    She spent a lot of time talking about “Real Virginia” and white working-class voters whose votes apparently count 2x more than minority votes.

    It pains me to say this: Macauliffe campaigned with Obama in Va in the gov race and showed Hilary and everybody how it’s done.

  115. 115
    Another Holocene Human says:

    OT: does anybody think Corzine and Christie could end up incarcerated at the same time? Would they go to the same low security prison?

  116. 116
    gene108 says:

    @gene108:

    Just wanted to add to my post, a lot of liberals want to follow the first black President with the first woman President.

    I think the misogyny on display will be epic and far worse than the racism Obama faced.

    95%+ of blacks backed Obama. Prominent black Republicans, like Collin Powell, publicly endorsed Obama.

    You are not going to get that much solidarity behind the first woman candidate. Most women will would vote for a female Presidential candidate.

    There will be enough conservative women around to “cat fight” on the talking news shows about how the Democratic woman nominee is not fit to be President that overcoming the inherent sexism from men and right-wing women will be a taller order than dealing with the racism of the white power establishment, because a lot of the flak will come from “your own tribe”.*

    Anyway, I think after 20+ years as a public figure, there is little you can sling at Hillary that will be new and very little is not already public information.

    She is not a natural politician like her husband, but she is competent.

    Also, I think it will sooth a lot of male egos that she is not going to be more accomplished than her husband, if she becomes the first female President.

    *I can’t wait for the “will black men start voting Republican because they do not trust women?” or some such headlines popping up, in 2016.

  117. 117
    WaterGirl says:

    @gene108:

    Most women will would vote for a female Presidential candidate.

    I find that just as insulting when people think I will vote for Hillary for president because she is a woman as I did that McCain thought we would vote for Palin because she is a woman.

    The world will be much worse off if the first woman president is not exceptionally talented. The first woman just to have the first woman? Count me out.

  118. 118
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @gene108: I think the misogyny on display will be epic and far worse than the racism Obama faced.

    Hard to quantify such things, but there are a lot more women in the Village media than African Americans, and the backlash would be greater. Andrea Mitchell would not let Tom Brokaw get away with saying he didn’t see the gender dog-whistling in a GOP campaign the way did with the Romney operation’s birtherism and race-baiting.

  119. 119
    Cassidy says:

    @Bob In Portland: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! It’s funny because you didn’t get a pony! Fucking suburbanites.

  120. 120
    gene108 says:

    @🍀 Martin:

    What do you mean none? This far out from 2008, nobody would have believed that Obama would run, let alone have a shot at winning.

    We have no idea who is going to run.

    This far out from the 1992 election no one thought Bill Clinton would run or that any Democrat would have a shot at beating GWHB, who had a 90% approval rating after successfully concluding the first Gulf War.

    Bill Clinton and Obama are gifted politicians.

  121. 121
    gene108 says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Most women vote for the Democratic Presidential candidate. If the candidate is a woman, I look for that vote total and percentage to go up.

    In 2008, Obama upped the voter turn and percentage of African-Americans, who were super excited about his candidacy.

    African-Americans do usually vote for Democrats, but having one on the ticket upped the numbers from that demographic to have a material impact on states, like North Carolina.

    Palin had to somehow convince women, who vote for Democrats, to somehow switch parties. It is a taller order than getting disinterested people, who generally agree with Democratic policies, to vote because they see history being made.

    EDIT: Woman are not going to blindly vote for someone because they are a woman, but women generally tend to support Democrats. If the choice is between two Democrats, the more appealing candidate to the voter will get the vote, regardless of race or gender.

  122. 122
    gene108 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Fair enough, but would Megyn Kelly tell Hannity to a shut up or would she pile on? I’m not sure what right-wing women will do, and there are enough right-wing women to potentially be aggravating.

  123. 123
    Hunter Gathers says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    And it’s already too late for that. Be realistic: how many white voters do the Dems really “get back” running a white candidate?

    The race to nomination in ’08 was over after the ‘Potomac Primary’ in February. She could not possibly win after that. But the press, heavily invested in keeping the damn thing going, kept insisting that she could still win, facts be damned. She couldn’t win, so she started the whole ‘I don’t know if he’s Muslim or not’ bullshit (I’ll vote for her, but I’ll always hate her guts for starting that bigoted horseshit) so she could win Ohio. She spent a lot of time in lilly-white dive bars to win Pennsylvania and Indiana, when she had no shot at winning, facts be damned.

    Obama lost about 2-3 points in ’08 and ’12 because of the color of his skin. A white Dem, in the absence of a proverbial Live Boy or Dead Girl, could still with the White House with relative ease even if minority turnout will be the same in 2016 as it was in 2012. A LOT of Dems didn’t vote for Obama because he’s black. A lot of Arkansas, Kentucky, and West Virginia Democrats, for example. And white voters are the only voters that matter to the press and pollsters. Minority voters don’t exist at all because they’re not ‘savvy’ and they’re too hyperpartisan because they were never ‘Reagan Democrats’. It doesn’t matter if the white vote can’t get the GOP into the White House. Middle-aged and older potential white ‘Reagan Democrats’ will be where all the action in 2016 resides.

    If she’s convinced that she can’t loose, she’ll take a huge shit on minority voters. If her pollsters tell her that she can still win big even with lower minority turnout, she’ll start citing ‘The Bell Curve’, the need for more welfare reform and how people who criticize Paul Ryan are the real racists. The press convinced her that she could win a contest she had already lost 5 years ago. They also have the ability to convince her that minority votes are worthless compared to the votes of savvy Reagan Democrats.

  124. 124
    qwerty42 says:

    @Hunter Gathers:

    …I’m convinced that she’s going to start some kind of shooting war in the Middle East (she really, really wanted Obama to go into Libya), for no other reason than to prove that she’s tougher than Obambi.

    The Beltway crowd is wired for war. I read Larison a lot (thanks to our host) and am not overawed with anyone on this score. The Villagers seem to think it is still the Truman Administration and they have vast support for this nonsense. I think there is less chance of a war with a Democrat in the Whitehouse, but that is about it. It is going to take a while for DC to recognize that it is not always:
    1) 1938
    2) 1941
    3) 1945

  125. 125
    hildebrand says:

    @Josie: I would like to skip the Hillary step. We need one of the Castros to decide to bring their level of skill and competence (and more liberal views) to the national stage sooner rather than later. She should step back, endorse one of them, and then campaign for them. Let her be the king-maker, that would work, and we wouldn’t be sacked with her third-way nonsense.

  126. 126
    askew says:

    @Baud:

    I am waiting for her to take credit for Obamacare/ACA. That’s her greatest talent to take credit for other people’s hard work and get the media and gullible voters to fall for it. Just ask her about her hard work on the Irish Peace Treaty or FMLA.

  127. 127
    Baud says:

    @askew:

    That’s the type of pie fight I’m talking about. Can’t wait!

  128. 128
    Josie says:

    @hildebrand: I agree, but I get the impression from the interviews I have seen that they don’t think the time is right. Neither one seems inclined to step forward for 2016. Maybe that will change.

  129. 129
    askew says:

    @Baud:

    Actually, it’s true. You can call it a pie fight if you want but it belittles the fact that the woman is a serial liar. But, the woman has a long history of claiming credit for other people’s works and the media letting it slide. They’ve already done as much as possible to give credit for every one of Obama’s accomplishments to the nearest white person (Bill Clinton won Obama’s re-election for him after all).

  130. 130
    🍀 Martin says:

    @Anton Sirius: A lot of people here wrote him off as well. And at Kos.

    I’m not suggesting it changed the opinion of a lot of Democrats, but a lot of Dems thought he could never recover from that.

  131. 131
    Baud says:

    @askew:

    Obama sold us out when he made her Secretary of State!

    If she lies during the campaign, I’m sure the blogs will be all over it. I’m not going to spend time anticipating it.

  132. 132
    TR says:

    Hooray. The Boomers are back to shove their shitty music down our throats.

    Sorry, “classic rock.”

  133. 133
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Ironically, New Jersey still hasn’t caught up with Illinois as far as incarcerated governors — they’ve had 4 in the past 40 years.

  134. 134
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Hunter Gathers: .

    A LOT of Dems didn’t vote for Obama because he’s black. A lot of Arkansas, Kentucky, and West Virginia Democrats, for example.

    They’re never coming back. Regardless of the Democratic candidate. Obama was an excuse, not a reason.

  135. 135
    LanceThruster says:

    Mojo Nixon – Elvis Is Everywhere.

    “Hillary Clinton has no Elvis in her.”

  136. 136
    chopper says:

    @annagranfors:

    My only exception would be using something like the Descendents’ “Wienerschnitzel”.

    lol. “you want Bill sperm with that?” everybody looks around nervously.

  137. 137
    geg6 says:

    I’m sure this thread is dead and I’m glad I didn’t read it earlier today or I probably wouldn’t have gotten my grocery shopping done. All I can say is that, at this point, I really wish I had a choice as to which people were on my side. Sexism and ageism aren’t pretty and I think I’m seeing way too much o fit here. And people wonder why I’m depressed about politics.

    I’m not and never was a Hilbot, always an Obot from before he even announced. But the more I listen to so many people ostensibly on my side, the more I want her to run.

  138. 138
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Davis X. Machina: I don’t know, McCain and Romney won the white women’s vote, I’d be surprised if notHillary does in 2016. (At this point, I’m assuming she’s running.) OTOH, I’d be very surprised if HRC puts WV, Ark or Ky in play, but OathirdH, I’d be willing to bet she loses them and a few other states by a smaller margin than Obama did

  139. 139
    AxelFoley says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    If I wasn’t sure you were a rightwing troll before, I know for sure now that you are.

  140. 140
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @AxelFoley: Larouchie.

  141. 141
    Mnemosyne says:

    @AxelFoley:

    I agree with OO — Bob is probably a LaRouchie. It’s all conspiracy, all the time.

  142. 142
    AxelFoley says:

    Ah, that makes sense, too.

    Wonder why he wastes his, and our, time here.

  143. 143
    JasonF says:

    gian and Villago Delinda Est —

    Yeah, I know Bill used it in 1992. That was more than two decades ago. You’ll note that Bill did not use a Johnny Ray or Patti Page song, even though those were roughly as old in 1992 as Rumours is today.

    The median voter is somewhere around 44 years old, which means he or she was somewhere around 5 years old when that song was released. It’s not going to bring back fond memories of idealistic youth like it did when Bill used it — it’s going to make voters think “Great, it’s my Mom’s candidate.”

  144. 144
    Mnemosyne says:

    @JasonF:

    The median voter is somewhere around 44 years old, which means he or she was somewhere around 5 years old when that song was released.

    More like 7 or 8 years old (I’m turning 45 this year, and I was 8 when that song came out).
    /nitpick

  145. 145
    Suzanne says:

    @geg6: THIS to everything you just said. And more.

  146. 146
    Don K says:

    @Tripod:

    Actually, old white guys, but still, amen brother! I suppose I’m in the target demo (born in 54, white, and a guy), but I can’t stand listening to most of that shit. Oh and by the way, there are lots of 30-something guys around Detroit who are absolutely addicted to it. If we have someone doing work around the house, I’ll guarantee he’s listening to the local classic rock, whatever his age.

  147. 147
    askew says:

    @geg6:

    There is criticism of Hillary in this thread. There isn’t sexism or ageism. It’s not ageist to think she’s too old to hold the presidency. This isn’t a standard job. It’s one of the hardest in the world. We’ve seen what happens to presidents over their terms. The stress ages them terribly and it makes sense to put someone younger and who hasn’t had a serious health scare in the oval office. The exact same arguments were made about McCain when he was running and it was true with him and it’s true with her.

    I do like how the second anyone criticizes Hillary the sexism charge is brought up. It was a lame charge in 2008 and it’s a lame charge now. Hillary isn’t entitled to special treatment because she’s a woman. She has to stand on her own two feet and be responsible for her and her campaign’s actions. She doesn’t get a pass because she is a woman, though there are a lot of people who blame all of Hillary’s missteps in 2008 on her staff like she had nothing to do with running for president. I’ve never seen those kind of excuses made for male candidates who lose.

  148. 148
    JasonF says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yes, but by 2016, we’ll all be two years older and being 44 years old will be that much further in the rear view mirror.

  149. 149
    JasonF says:

    @askew: And to be clear, I’m not saying Hillary is too old to be President. I’m saying “Don’t Stop” is too old to be the kind of campaign song that’s going to connect with and resonate with the voters Hillary needs to woo.

  150. 150
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @JasonF: I think it’s more likely they’ll associate it with Bill’s 1992 campaign than the 70’s.

    Now, of course, that WAS indeed two decades ago. The Dems were using “Happy Days are Here Again” as a campaign theme since FDR prior to that.

  151. 151
    mclaren says:

    @Suzanne:

    Don’t understand the Hillary cynicism on this thread. If she wins, she will be a pretty good President, I imagine.

    Cynicism?

    How about “experience”?

    Start with the experience of watching Hillary Clinton french-kiss the corrupt Wall Street crime lords’ bungholes with her recent speech at Goldman Sachs, in which she explained that “bashing Wall Street is unproductive” and “needs to stop.” This, after a tidal wave of criminal fraud unexampled in American history:

    The cost of faking a foreclosure document continues to rise. Ten banks will now pay $8.5 billion to borrowers for so-called “robo-signing,” a fraudulent practice uncovered two years ago that sent the mortgage market into yet another tail-spin.

    Source: “Banks Pay Big for Robo-Signing…Again,” CNBC website, 7 January 2013.

    But of course this is “bashing the bankers” according to Hillary, and “needs to stop.”

    And speaking of Goldman Sachs, those fine folks who paid Hillary Clinton $400,000 to make a speech explaining that indicting them for criminal fraud is “bashing” and is “unproductive,”

    The Securities and Exchange Commission today charged Goldman, Sachs & Co. and one of its vice presidents for defrauding investors by misstating and omitting key facts about a financial product tied to subprime mortgages as the U.S. housing market was beginning to falter.

    The SEC alleges that Goldman Sachs structured and marketed a synthetic collateralized debt obligation (CDO) that hinged on the performance of subprime residential mortgage-backed securities (RMBS). Goldman Sachs failed to disclose to investors vital information about the CDO, in particular the role that a major hedge fund played in the portfolio selection process and the fact that the hedge fund had taken a short position against the CDO.

    Source: “SEC Charges Goldman Sachs With Fraud in Structuring and Marketing of CDO Tied to Subprime Mortgages,” SEC website, 2010.

    Then there’s our experience watching Hillary Clinton build up a dynasty for her daughter, including highly-paid prestigious positions at various rarefied institutions, including a board of directors position on the Clinton Global Initiative, a non-profit organization which happens to control 73 billion dollars. Chelsea Clinton is doing okay for a girl who just got her masters degree, having purchased a 10.5 million dollar apartment overlooking Central Park last year. Oh, and by the way — Chelsea Clinton’s hubby happens to be a hedge fund trader at (wait for it…) Goldman Sachs. Yes, that’s the same institution the Obama administration’s SEC just charged with criminal fraud. And, yes, that’s the same institution that just paid Hillary Clinton $400,000 to give them a speech explaining why these kinds of SEC charges are “bashing” and “unproductive.”

    Top it all off by noting that Hillary Clinton never seems to have seen a war she didn’t like, and that’s significantly far to the right of Obama on the fraudulent so-called War On Terror — and since Obamas conduct of the misnamed War On Terror is significantly to the right of George W. Bush (after all, Bush never ordered any American’s assassinated, and Bush never signed off on an NDAA bill giving the pesident the legal right to kidnap American citizens and hurl them into a dungeon forever, without trial), that should scare the piss out of you.

    But oh…wait! This is all just “cynicism.” The documented facts are “cynical.” So we must ignore them.

    Genius.

  152. 152
    mclaren says:

    @askew:

    It’s not ageist to think she’s too old to hold the presidency. This isn’t a standard job. It’s one of the hardest in the world. We’ve seen what happens to presidents over their terms.

    66 years old isn’t very old by today’s standards, especially not for triple-digit millionaires like Bill and Hillary Clinton, who have the best medical care on earth 24/7/365.

    Age doesn’t seem an issue. I haven’t heard anyone criticize Hillary because she’s a woman. AFAICT her gender has nothing to do with the question of whether she’ll make a good president.

    In any case, since the Republicans have gone batshit insane and are probably going to run a sociopath like Ted Cruz or Paul Ryan or Jeb Bush, if Hillary runs in 2016 against one of those lunatics, I will vote for her. I won’t like it…but I will vote for her.

    If it’s a choice between voting for Vlad the Impaler and Boss Tweed, c’mon, people. You pull the lever for Boss Tweed. Obviously.

  153. 153
  154. 154
    master c says:

    Ugh, not excited about voting for her at all. I will of course, if that’s my choice as Dem….but not at all excited about her. If it’s Clinton and Jeb, I will not be surprised/excited.

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