This is an absolutely absurd sentence. I’m hoping Soonergrunt will discuss this in more detail.
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This is an absolutely absurd sentence. I’m hoping Soonergrunt will discuss this in more detail.
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burnspbesq
No, it’s not all absurd. The case was falling apart, because it became apparent that a key witness might have committed perjury in an earlier hearing in the case. Or did you not read the story you linked?
Villago Delenda Est
It’s an outrage. Justice has been denied.
This guy should do the Danny Deever Dance for his actions.
scav
If the Military Brass are expected to actually live up to their PR as Officers and Gentlemen and supreme and unique Patriots and Leaders, rather than insisting we all instantly defer to their inherently and necessarily superior selves, well, I don’t know what. Terrorists will have won. They apparently had decided to throw a token one of their own to the media and judicial dogs rather than attempting the harder effort of actually addressing any issues. Failed at that too. woo-hoo.
Belafon
Probably had to do with this:
Now, he should be thrown out for having an affair with a subordinate, which I was taught was a no-no.
burnspbesq
@Villago Delenda Est:
Perhaps, but as a result of (probably) prosecutorial misconduct and (perhaps) improper political influence. Not because of anything the defense did.
Belafon
I wonder if the woman in Florida who is being tried again, this time with a longer sentence, for thinking she had a right to stand her ground even though she was black, can use this in her new trial:
JPL
@Belafon: That’s what I thought also.
Villago Delenda Est
@Belafon:
The UCMJ is worded in such a way that you can be prosecuted for getting a blow job from your wife.
Let alone a subordinate.
However, if the Captain in question was not in the chain of command he was in, the guidance is it’s not a fraternization violation, and it’s not undue pressure. Still, I find it very distasteful at the very least to have a junior officer as a mistress. Generals are supposed to be professionals. Sinclair wasn’t acting very professional with THAT choice.
JPL
@Belafon: hmmm Now what color is the woman that is being retried in Florida.
You have to take that into consideration.
PaulW
While the case was falling apart, there was enough evidence that the general behaved inappropriately and possibly detrimental to the morale and discipline of his command. There should have been more than just a slap on the wrist. I doubt a demotion would have been applicable but his discharge/retirement should reflect his misconduct.
Villago Delenda Est
@burnspbesq: I have to keep reminding myself that “justice” is not really what the “justice system” (military or civilian, for that matter) is really about.
Agreed with you about prosecutorial and chain of command issues. That certainly played a role in this.
The “justice system” about maintaining order. If justice happens to be served, great! If not…well, order has been maintained.
My god, his affair with this Captain was made light of at his farewell party from his command! Everyone knew about this!
Villago Delenda Est
@PaulW: Exactly.
gnomedad
Not little enough.
JC
Looks like very possible no sexual assault – certainly not provable at least.
However:
” In addition to admitting to mistreating his mistress, he pleaded guilty to adultery, soliciting explicit pictures from female officers, disobeying a commander, possessing pornography in a combat zone and misusing his government credit card.”
And in the article:
“General Sinclair had a tendency to make inappropriate comments about women and to make advances toward them, and he sought explicit pictures from female subordinates. ”
So, shouldn’t the above be firing offenses?
I can see how, you don’t remove his pension. He served with distinction for many year. And if you were a civilian, who did the above, you don’t lose your 401K.
But, why keep him in the military? At minimum, discharge him. This would be a firing offense for a civilian, that is for sure.
Mandalay
@PaulW:
That sounds about right. The actual case against him was certainly falling apart, but the stuff he had already admitted to was mind boggling. From the OP link:
I really resent our government paying that vile fucker a big fat pension for the rest of his life.
Villago Delenda Est
@gnomedad: His wife hasn’t left him and taken the kids with her? Say what you will about Jenny Sanford, she had the integrity and guts to dump Mark publically when the Appalachian Trail walk took place.
Oh, btw, where area all those scolds who were OUTRAGED over l’affair Lewinsky? Who kept drawing parallels with how military leaders and CEOs would be treated if they did what Clinton did with the zaftig Monica?
Belafon
@JC: The implied meaning in the agreement was that he would retire very quickly. Firing would have cost him his pension, which I’m not against, but they decided he could keep it.
Villago Delenda Est
@JC:
WTF?
He disobeyed orders?
Why is this motherfucker still in uniform?
He should have been dismissed for the good of the service for that alone, never mind all the sexual crap.
ranchandsyrup
Military justice is more of an oxymoron than military intelligence. Unless we are in the movie A Few Good Men.
Amir Khalid
Brigadier Sinclair isn’t getting off scotch-free: he’s being made to retire two ranks down as a lieutenant-colonel, and give up $20k in pay. (Is that technically different from a fine?) It seems a light punishment for so senior an officer, given his long-term misconduct, but it’s more than nothing.
Elizabelle
@JC:
He will put in retirement papers soon.
I wish they could pull his security clearance, somehow make him less appealing to defense contractors.
And it would serve him right if his pension got busted down to the rank of Major or less.
John Cole
@burnspbesq: Don’t ever change, Burns:
No punishment whatsoever. You have no idea how much carnage and fallout this is going to create. Notwithstanding the women who have been raped in the past and have to deal with this, or who will be raped in the future and look at this and think there is nothing that can be done, but every single enlisted man in the military, and quite a few officers, are all looking at this as “brass taking care of brass.” What this man did was unspeakable as far as conduct from a general officer goes:
The judge didn’t even reduce him in rank, as the DEFENSE team agreed to in the plea.
catclub
@ranchandsyrup: “Unless we are in the movie A Few Good Men. ”
Then it is just fiction.
Calouste
@JC:
I see at least three things in there that on their own would be, and have been, cause for (almost) immediate dismissal at the Fortune 500 company where I work.
scav
The 1% CEOs come in Uniform too. All that matters is the chain-of-command and, apparently, some technicalities of legalistic veils.
JC
@Belafon: Ah, okay. Thanks, I didn’t see that.
If so, then I suppose it makes sense. Whether it is retired or fired, he needs to be out of uniform now.
ranchandsyrup
@catclub: heh indeedy. always fiction then.
cmorenc
@Belafon:
Since the woman in Florida in fact spent some considerable amount of time in jail before winning a right to a new trial, why exactly does the female prosecutor who’s pushing for a re-trial have such an um….hard-on…oh, youknowhatImean to put the woman in jail for a much longer sentence, when she didn’t actually hit (or aim anywhere close) to the alleged victim when she fired a shot?
And Zimmerman walks a free man after fatally shooting a teen boy who was armed with nothing but a soda and skittles, which this same prosecutor apparently tried for the state…am I correct about that? Does she have no sense whatever of the optics of Zimmerman going free while she seeks an extremely long prison sentence for someone who came nowhere close to actually shooting or killing the person in question?
Elizabelle
@Villago Delenda Est:
Didn’t Jenny Sanford have the money (not to mention, brains) in that marriage?
Sherparick
@gnomedad: If the system had worked, this guy would never had made 1Lt, little lone becoming a GO. Besides the sexism and corruption, there is also a perfidious class bias in the military justice system. If BG Sinclair had been a Command Sergeant Major, I expect he would have gone to jail, or a minimum kicked out of the military. But military judges and military court martial panels, made up of senior officers, empathize with defendants who are senior officers, and are loathed issue a penalty that will take away the 30 year investment of time in that retirement pension from both the officer and his spouse.
That civilian courts also have a hard time with sex crimes, you can check out this case which was also a rather famous arrest last year. http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/jeffrey-krusinski-air-force-colonel-accused-of-assault-goes-on-trial-in-arlington/2013/11/13/04aa0dfa-4c9f-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html
Villago Delenda Est
@John Cole: Agreed, John. I’m outraged at this. It does indeed seem to be brass taking care of brass.
Disgusting. The Army’s officer corps has a serious corruption problem.
Fucking Bush. He set this up. He drove the good officers and NCOs out with his bullshit war.
Villago Delenda Est
@cmorenc: Don’t forget the hoodie. That’s damning apparel, you know.
Belafon
@cmorenc: Of course she knows what the optics are. As someone said above, this justice system is about keeping order. If a black woman gets away with firing a gun in the air to scare her ex, she might point it at a white person next time.
Villago Delenda Est
You know, upon reflection, my outrage isn’t that the Captain wasn’t believed, or that she may have lied, or even that she was sexually assaulted with no recourse. Not that I’m pleased with any of that mind you.
It’s that the system, which is supposed to be about maintaining military discipline so that the Army can do its job under the most trying of circumstances, has utterly failed. Things that rate prison time for enlisted should rate something more for officers. They’re supposed to be setting the fucking example, not the example of fucking.
scav
@John Cole: cont.
So it’s probably just not his own wife and female subordinates and comrades that will be dealing with the after-effects of effectively legitimizing this, there are all the wives, girlfriends, partners and fellow soldiers that will be coping with men that think this sort of behavior is a laughing matter suitable for public consumption in front of the injured parties.
But, of course, General whatzit is glad the difficult time of his fucking trial is over for his poor family. Permanently clueless.
Omnes Omnibus
@John Cole: Given that the article says his retirement is likely to be as a LTC, it is effectively a demotion of two ranks.
The case fell apart. The prosecution came to doubt the credibility of its primary witness. I am not saying that this result is good for the service, but given a collapsing case, it is about what could be expected.
Eric U.
Generals are almost never serving at their permanent rank. I’m sure there is a reason for that. I assume a BG has a permanent rank of 06 though. Congress almost always promotes them to their terminal rank after they have safely retired
Someguy
@Villago Delenda Est: Oh, btw, where area all those scolds who were OUTRAGED over l’affair Lewinsky? Who kept drawing parallels with how military leaders and CEOs would be treated if they did what Clinton did with the zaftig Monica?
I figured you were one of them morality types based on your railing about the General’s behavior. Or is it only military folk you expect to behave in a manner consistent with old testament moral rules? Or is your point that nobody should be held to any moral principles and the unwanted advances and posession of pornography justify a harsh sentence, while the long term affair is off-limits? Your argument is sort of descending into incoherence here.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Omnes, don’t you think that they could have added other charges once the case started to fall apart on the rape? I am not military, but it seems to me there were plenty of things he could have been charged with, just from what I read in the linked article.
edit: This just feels like more of the boys club to me; boys will be boys.
MikeJ
@WaterGirl: I would guess that almost everything would hang on the testimony of the witness who had already perjured herself.
WaterGirl
@MikeJ: That is probably true for some things, but what about:
catclub
Notice that this case was concluded AFTER the senate decided that ONLY the chain of command, which has done such a sterling job all along, should be the only way such accusations are handled.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: He was charged with other things and pleaded guilty to a number of them. He was fined $20,000 and is effectively being reduced two ranks. Whether this is adequate punishment for the UCMJ violations to which he pleaded guilty is a matter of opinion.
Tommy
you know I grew up in a military family. I was taught to follow orders. I have never been told to harm a women. I was told do the opposite, I don’ tthink his guy guilt. I find the organization guilty.
Belafon
@catclub: Considering that the start witness seems to have lied, I’m not sure this case would have fared any better in a civilian court.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tommy: Sinclair is supposedly a very bright guy. The institution may have problems but that does not absolve Sinclair from his obligation to behave decently.
Eric U.
@Belafon: since there appears to have been a consensual relationship at some point, it seems likely that he could have gotten off in a civilian court given a good enough lawyer. And in civilian court a lot of the ancillary bad behavior probably would not have been admissible.
srv
I just don’t understand why Slick Willie isn’t a hero to these general officers.
MikeJ
@WaterGirl: He pled guilty to it because that was the price of getting a plea bargain. It doesn’t mean they could have proved it had it gone to trial, and has been pointed out, there wasn’t really any penalty for it. If they had said, hey, we’ll drop this whole thing in return for 4 months pay if you just admit you personally drove the nails into Jesus, he would have gone along with it.
Schlemizel
As is too often the case this end badly because the woman may not have told the whole truth when it probably would have been better if she had just gone ahead and admitted the relationship continued after the assault because she feared retribution.
For what it is worth they probably cot the bastard for the most they could. He will be forced to retire & reduce to Lt Colonel so he will “pay” with a poorer retirement, maybe a million dollars depending on how long he lives – and assuming his wife does not decide she is sick of his shit.
The only real positive out of this hot mess is that it does cast a shadow on the military & they do seem to care about it once they have reached a certain level of embarrassment. It is a shame that the fine young men and women (particularly the women) have to suffer these outrages but I bet the Army starts doing a better job FINALLY. In this shitty world some days that is the best you can hope for.
MikeJ
@Omnes Omnibus:
It’s almost certainly not adequate punishment, but that’s usually the tradeoff you make for a guilty plea. Nobody pleads guilty in return for the death penalty. The prosecution may have given away too much, but on the other hand they may not have gotten anything had they gone to trial.
Belafon
@Eric U.: I’m all for putting trials like this in civilian hands, because I do think the military is not doing these right, but no one should use this case as an example of why.
Barry
@cmorenc: “Since the woman in Florida in fact spent some considerable amount of time in jail before winning a right to a new trial, why exactly does the female prosecutor who’s pushing for a re-trial have such an um….hard-on…oh, youknowhatImean to put the woman in jail for a much longer sentence, when she didn’t actually hit (or aim anywhere close) to the alleged victim when she fired a shot?”
Defendant black, prosecutor white, right-wing Florida maggot.
Scott
I’ve seen airmen discharged for abusing the credit card so, yes, Sinclair got off easy. I don’t know whether this played a role in the punishment thinking but Sinclair is still married. His wife will most likely divorce him and get half his pension. If pension was taken away, she may not get anything. Not enough in my mind to not punish him though.
Soonergrunt
I’ll get into this later. I’m in the middle of something tonight, so I’ll deal with this tomorrow.
WaterGirl
@MikeJ: That makes logical sense, but I still don’t think he lost nearly enough. So much for officers setting
the examplea good example. I’m still pissed.Villago Delenda Est
@Someguy: It’s not the sex, per se, it’s the undermining of the chain of command and the mistreatment of subordinates, to the point where the entire fucking command of an infantry brigade apparently knew this guy was screwing a junior officer. Who was not his wife. And they joked about it in front of his wife and the other wives of officers of the command.
This sort of thing is a corrosive that destroys the respect that must exist between those who lead and those who are led.
Who Sinclair fucks on his own time, off base, is his own business. But someone else in uniform and the knowledge is common that he’s doing it throughout his command? Absolutely appalling. Soliciting junior female officers for intimate photos? Come on.
Elizabelle
Penalty is inadequate, but I am distrustful of civilian juries too. Shouldn’t be, but the Zimmerman and Dunn jurors (among others) have schooled me.
Do you think the public would better be served by a jury of the first 12-15 jurors whose numbers are pulled out of a hat, rather than those selected for their views on guns or respect for the military?
I’m not sure where being guaranteed a “jury of your peers” segued into “let the defense cherry-pick the jury” — certainly by the OJ Simpson murder case ….
Elizabelle
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yes.
And that’s what this case was about. Even without the “star witness”, the other stuff Sinclair has copped to is dreadful.
Military brass: Justice for thee, but not for me.
Chris
@ranchandsyrup:
Yeah, always wondered how… interesting it must be trying to enforce laws of war/codes of conduct in the military, for those who’re actually trying.
When I read about My Lai, the thing that stuck out to me the most (as with the Catholic child abuse scandals) isn’t that it actually happened, it’s how the institution responded to it. The original reaction was to cover it up, nothing was done until the story broke in the national media, and even then there was a firestorm of anger on the part of Congress and the Pentagon towards Hugh Thompson for having the impudence to speak up about it, with even an attempt at having him court-martialed.
How many times things like My Lai have happened and gone completely unpunished for lack of a big media scoop is a rather disturbing thing to speculate about.
(Just to kick it up a notch from a general’s sexual misconduct…)
WaterGirl
@Villago Delenda Est: Could not agree more!
MomSense
@Villago Delenda Est:
While I do agree generally with the point you are making here, I do think it is important to remember that a lot of women do not seek divorce solely because they don’t have the money.
srv
@Chris: And yet, Colin Powell is a hero.
Sloegin
Wasn’t the Air Force booting out officers just for adultery not too long ago?
Elizabelle
LA Times: Robin Abcarian: Is anyone really surprised that Brig. Gen. Sinclair got off easy?
Well, Sinclair got busted down 2 ranks, but he’s got excellent benefits including full medical and commissary, and he’s youngish and he and his wife (or ex-wife) may be collecting a healthy pension from Uncle Sam for 30 to 40 years.
But still …
Elizabelle
@Sloegin:
Never mind those dread homosexual Arabic speakers. Be gone, sirs.
Dave
@scav: I think that in many ways the officer corp is actually far worse about these attitudes than enlisted soldiers; and I was shocked that there was actually the impression this guy would get jail time. And then of course he didn’t but I’m sure that there are many General Officers that feel for him never mind what the outcome would have been for someone not in the boys club.
Chris
@srv:
Good cop, bad cop.
Elizabelle
Can a higher officer overturn the deal?
Because this might not be in the best interests of the Army and armed services.
Elizabelle
Can a higher officer overturn the deal?
Because this might not be in the best interests of the Army and armed services.
Mandalay
@srv:
Really? To whom? I think that myth died a long time ago. In a way I find him even more contemptible than Cheney and Rumsfeld.
Hal
Nice. Hey kids, give Dad a big hug! Honey? What’s for dinner?
JustRuss
I especially enjoyed this line:
Yes, pity those poor officers as they “struggle”. You keep using that word, I do not think you know what it means…
scav
@Dave: Mmm, I’d hope so, but it wasn’t the brass that thought adultery a suitable joke for a party in front of the wives. That fish has rotted past the head.
JGabriel
NY Times:
Right. Well, whose fault is that, jackass?
Elizabelle
@Mandalay:
I disagree. Colin Powell is remorseful for his actions, and not out braying advice or insulting President Obama for lack of leadership skills. He knows he lied, to terrible effect, in the runup to Iraq.
He in no way belongs in the Rumsfeld and Cheney cesspool.
Under your system, a true sociopath gets off lightly — he’s the scorpion, it was his nature — and those who are better people are damned all the more for their failings.
I don’t subscribe to that.
Dave
@scav: Oh I wouldn’t say that the enlisted ranks are a font of enlightened thought either but, personal experience so anecdotal, it’s just the Officer corp seems to be worse about it but also more concerned with appearances so less honest about it. I’m not a disinterested observer here and am running a little in the John Cole emotional response mode (something I actually find likable about him more than not) so my opinions are probably a little colored.
Elizabelle
Look out John Cole:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-sinclair-sentence-reaction-20140320,0,3885028.story#ixzz2wXvI00s2
ETA: No word whether the lucky Mrs. Sinclair will be in the car, and if so, if even heated seats will make that drive more comfortable.
Violet
Am I the only one old enough to remember the Tailhook convention scandal?
This kind of crap by officers has been going on a long time.
JPL
@Elizabelle: Do they own a Subaru?
Hal
@Elizabelle: Did Powell lie, or was he lied to? I thought there was still some debate as to just how much he knew of what he was saying was false.
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle: Apparently, and I’m no expert on this aspect of UCMJ…my knowledge is pretty much limited to what I personally experienced as a junior officer, and never with a court-martial, the judge made the call on the sentencing. There are maximum sentences for various offenses, and these are pretty much written in stone, but sentencing lighter is at the discretion of the judge or the commander.
The judge in this case really fucked up if this was about maintaining good discipline, which is supposed to be at the very heart of the UCMJ, because if junior officers felt they could get away with skits that depict their commander getting oral sex from a junior officer, it’s pretty obvious that good discipline is shot in that command.
Mike in NC
This guy will probably never get a third star. Getting booted out is reserved for peons.
Villago Delenda Est
@Violet: Oh, that one pissed me off too…and the attempted coverup only made it far worse.
Sinclair was behind me by a few years in the ranks, and I would have hoped that officers of my particular era would have had far more discretion in their sex lives, and treated female officers with the respect their rank endowed them with, but apparently there are still a few pricks about (so to speak).
Elizabelle
@Hal:
I honestly don’t know if Powell knew what he was saying was false. I think he did.
Since he seemed to take himself off the world stage after, I took that for remorse.
Yeah, the Iraq warmongers would have lied to Powell too. To anyone they could. Whether Powell knew or not the actual situation; cannot say but I suspect he realized he was puffing up the evidence.
Do you recall?
Elizabelle
@Villago Delenda Est:
In Zucchino’s LATimes story, he says the Ft. Bragg commander can lessen the sentence, but not increase it.
I don’t know about those higher in the chain of command. But this does not seem to be justice, and it’s poison to have different sets of rules for officers and enlisted, particularly when you’re in a business where junior officers and enlisted can die at the direction of their officers.
Mandalay
@Elizabelle:
There’s no need to put words in my mouth. I said nothing about systems, sociopaths or scorpions.
My Lai made Powell soiled goods long before Iraq happened, and his failure to resign or condemn those who set him up as a patsy after the UN debacle spoke volumes about his (lack of) character. He was even willing to stay on and serve a second term as SoS until Bush fired him.
Some hero.
Violet
@Villago Delenda Est:
Also from the Wikipedia article on the Tailhook scandal:
Those poor naval aviators. No longer able to swagger around swinging what they wish were their giant dicks. And if you can’t swing your dick, how can you ever have any confidence? Note this was 2011.
JPL
@Mandalay: IMO and I’m only speculating but Powell always played the good soldier and did as he was told. Although a soldier is not suppose to support a particular party, he was always assumed to be a Republican and when he retired, he admitted he was one. What changed him, in my opinion, was Bush and Fox news.
Mandalay
@Elizabelle:
Nonsense. He stayed on as SoS after being used by the Administration, until he was fired. He could have resigned after lying to the world at the UN, but he chose to continue working with those who had set him up. (And that’s making the charitable assumption that he didn’t know he was spewing bullshit at the UN.)
srv
@Elizabelle: Powell is only remorseful because he got caught fibbing in public.
As for My Lai, Iran-Contra and others, he’s opined no guilts. He’s the guy who signed the paperwork (on different occassions) for St. Ronnie’s shell game with 4000 TOW missiles to Iran and kept his mouth shut, when there was this thing called the Boland Ammendment.
JPL
@Mandalay: How do you feel about Jane Fonda? Should she be forgiven?
My opinion, since I’m old enough to remember, is she was a fool who allowed herself to be used by Hanoi. Since then she has been an amazing talent in Hollywood and has done outstanding work with teens.
srv
@JPL: Both sides do it.
A teen actress is the same thing as a military officer, Army Chief of Staff and Secretary of State serially involved with conspiracies.
Mandalay
@JPL:
Yes, you may have a good point in explaining his behavior, and playing the good soldier when you are in the military is fine. But he wasn’t in the military during the Iraq debacle. He was SoS, and entrusted to be looking after the national interest, so justifying Powell’s “good soldier” behavior in that context is another matter entirely.
As far as I’m concerned Powell’s hands are soaked in blood, and the idea that he should be portrayed as a hero to anyone is repulsive.
JPL
@srv: It had nothing to do with both sides do it. Rather it had to do with the fact that he changed. He definitely should have walked away from Bush but didn’t and we will never know why. All I’m trying to point out is who do you forgive. I know many who will not forgive Jane and that’s stupid. I don’t want to be one of them.
Mandalay
@JPL:
Jane Fonda said of her photo with the Vietcong: “I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me. … It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless.” and “an unforgivable mistake”.
And here’s what Colin Powell said of his speech at the UN: it was “painful” for him personally and would be a permanent “blot” on his record.
Even when he reflects on what he did, it’s still all about poor old Colin Powell, and there’s not even the hint of an apology. Some hero.
I can understand why some will never forgive Jane Fonda for what she did. She wasn’t young and naive at the time (she was 34), but at least she is saying the right things now. What more can she do?
srv
@Mandalay: As you can see, a lot of people want to believe Colin has a good heart and would be great to have a beer with.
Judge Crater
Good God, has anyone mentioned “Conduct unbecoming an officer.” This guy should have his epaulets ripped off and his sword broken and thrown on the ground. Unbelievable!
Elizabelle
@Judge Crater:
I know. Simple, but true.
Keith G
@Mandalay:
I quite often agree with where you are coming from, but part of the above might be a bit shrill.
Yes his hands are stained by mis-spent blood. But while I was playing with Matchbox cars, Powell was humping around the hinterlands of South Vietnam getting shot at while performing honorable service in one of our most unfortunate wars. What were you doing then?
He says he was lied to by Tenet at al. and I see no evidence to the contrary. I do wish he would have spoken up loudly with condemnation when he realized the deceit, but I understand his reasons why he did not.
His role in that horrible act will always be an important part of his biography.
John Cole
@burnspbesq: Again, don’t ever change, Burns. The rich and powerful always need a knee-jerk advocate, so whether it is Goldman Sachs or serial abusers in the military, there will always be one lawyer out there with their back:
I know you are a lawyer, but do you ever know what the fuck you are talking about and are you even remotely acquainted with the concept of the “justice” portion of the judicial system, civilian or military?
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle:
I disagree.
The rules for officers MUST be much more strict, the punishments more severe. Officers are, by their very definition and the wording of their commissions, much more responsible than enlisted are. Rank may have its privileges, but there is a cost to them.
The sad fact is that in the US military, the opposite is very apparent, especially when you get to the flag ranks. Then you’re “in the club” and suddenly so many rules no longer apply to you, it seems.
If I had tried to pull that shit on a female lieutenant under my command when I was a captain, they’d have drummed me out ala Branded.
Gopher2b
@Villago Delenda Est:
I’m really confused by what happened here. Was he charged with sexual assault, adultery, or both. If it’s adultery then they’ll have to jail everyone at the pentagon because that place is a meat market.
Anyway, there’s nothing stopping Senator Gillibrand from calling him to testify about what he did and juxtaposing that against his punishment.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gopher2b: Both. He actually copped to adultery as part of the plea bargain.
The punishment for those things he did cop to is appallingly lenient, IMHO. His failure to obey an order to avoid contact with the woman should be more than enough to dismiss him for the good of the service, all by itself.
Mandalay
@Keith G:
Honorable? Were you still playing with Matchbox cars when Colin Powell helped cover up the My Lai massacre? Was that also part of his “honorable service”?
Villago Delenda Est
@Someguy: Also, too, your reading comprehension skills need some work.
Keith G
@Mandalay: Sometime ago, I recall reading a look back article on My Lai. I don’t recall seeing that he took actions to cover up the atrocity. Though a quick click tells me that Wikipedia says.
“Would be described”? A rather noncommittal statement.
I donno if such an authoritative exposé is the definitive evidence of dishonorable service, though I always like perusing evidence – particularly if it is over something I may have missed. Maybe he is the son of Satan or a lesser demon. Sometime in the future, shoot me a link, but now its off to bed.
Omnes Omnibus
@Keith G: Powell was/is a go along to get along type. He has never been actively implicated in the My Lai cover up but he was in one of the people involved in trying to downplay it. And so on through out his career up to and including the UN speech. He was one of those guys who was never embarrassingly and career-endingly wrong about anything, but he was also careful to never be inconveniently right when everyone else was wrong. He had the career of a careerist.
Villago Delenda Est
@Gopher2b: Also, too, adultery has its own article in the UCMJ. Technically, any member of the military who has ever engaged in oral sex, giving or receiving, regardless of gender combinations, has violated the UCMJ. Which means every infantry soldier I ever knew was guilty, guilty, guilty as they could not stop telling their buddies about the great head that their girlfriend/wife gives them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: As a very new 2LT in my battalion, I got pulled aside by a very senior captain following officers’ PT and informed that the young lady with whom I was sleeping was the estranged wife of one of the soldiers in his battery. I gulped a bit and said, “I see.” As I informed the CO when it trickled up to him a couple of weeks later and he asked to see me, I spoke to the young lady one more time, briefly and in a public place, in order to tell her that I could not see her anymore. The CO said fine and that was it. I did, of course, have an instant reputation in the battalion. Later on, I was XO of the battery in which the now ex-husband served. He was a pretty good soldier.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Now, I wonder why it was that you figured this out so readily and Sinclair apparently didn’t get the hint when it delivered directly to his face in the form of an order.
Could it be that Sinclair, unlike you, thinks almost exclusively with the little head?
My mind reels.
Villago Delenda Est
Someone in the comments (at the LA Times)referred to Sinclair as “a ringknocker” but from looking him up on Wikipedia, it appears he’s an ROTC product, commissioned in 1985.
Amanda in the South Bay
I appreciate Burns’ attention to legal detail, but like every veteran on this thread, I’ll have to agree that the verdict was a fucking joke. This type of shit is very corrosive to the moral and well being of the military. Rank has its privileges indeed, fucking general piece of shit.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: That was the thing. it was obviously a word to the wise. I really had no idea about her marriage, but once I knew… The interview by the CO later, again couched in polite terms ( “I understand you had been seeing a young lady….” [pause]) was the test to see if I was an idiot or not. That is how it was done. Note, also, that I was not married and that I was unaware of the situation. It came up during questioning during my TS/BI investigation. it old the story and the investigator said, “Yeah, that’s what everyone has said. Don’t worry about it.”
@Villago Delenda Est: WVU.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amanda in the South Bay: The verdict is one thing. The prosecution’s case was falling apart. The plea offered and accepted makes complete sense. The sentence was far less than the defense had been willing to accept. That is the part that is problematic.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: One of the things the defense said it was unwilling to accept was any part of the sentencing that put Sinclair in the “sex offender” category.
It’s pretty obvious this guy can’t stop thinking about nookie, even after he’s very bluntly told to knock it off. To me, this is a pretty strong signal that he NEEDS to be categorized as a “sex offender” for the protection of society as a whole.
“Pornography in a combat zone”? WTF is up with THAT?
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: We had a porn file in our FDC when I was an FDO. My chief would send the junior private out to get a new stash every once in a while (he reimbursed the kid out of his own pocket). Porn in a combat zone is fine with me. Stress relief is stress relief. Of course, I am a well known slut, so that comes into play.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: Any combat arms bivouac that doesn’t have porn in it would raise my eyebrows.
Omnes Omnibus
@Villago Delenda Est: Aha, I misinterpreted your comment.
dww44
@Amir Khalid: Love this,
dww44
@JPL: Thanks for the laugh. Good way to end the evening.
Villago Delenda Est
@Omnes Omnibus: I thought you might have. I’m wondering why they tacked on a charge like that which PALES in comparison to blowing off an order. I mean, the adultery article is in and of itself a questionable remnant of a bygone moral age, but by gosh, he definitely was guilty of that one. I suppose (haven’t seen the charge sheet) that a lot of things were covered by the “everything but the kitchen sink” general article.
“General, stay away from this woman. Do I have to say the words “direct order” to you? Do I? I hope not.”
How obvious can you fucking get?
My first battalion commander said something that has always stuck with me, that using the words “this is a direct order” means that you MUST follow through if it’s disobeyed, and there are consequences for making that choice that you might want to consider before uttering those words. In short, he said, don’t use it lightly, don’t use it casually, don’t use it at all if you can avoid it and use some other means of getting done what needs to get done.
notorious JRT
@Omnes Omnibus:
The plea deal may have been expected. The sentencing should have been more reflective that the behaviors to which this effing SOB copped are utterly unacceptable. His attorney crowed that Sinclair had been exonerated. Christ, it makes me want to puke. He got a soft landing, and he should have been made an example because he demeaned his command in every possible respect.
I agree with those who suspect that lower ranking individuals would have been whacked a helluva lot harder. And I resent paying him a pension while he likely will double dip, too. I wish this creep everything but well.
Elizabelle
@Villago Delenda Est:
You misunderstand me, because I was sloppy in my writing.
I am saying it is poison when the rules for officers are less strict or enforced than those for enlisted/junior officers.
I totally agree that officers and leaders need to be held to a higher standard, and especially in the armed forces.
It is poison for Sinclair to get a slapped wrist, a penalty that surprised even his defense team (they’d brought a black raincoat to the hearing, the better to disguise his leaving in handcuffs!), when junior officers and enlisted get draconian sentences or dishonorably discharged for way less than that which Sinclair admitted to, in court.
Sorry my comment was not more clear; we are actually in agreement here.
Elizabelle
daughter of an officer
Elizabelle
@Omnes Omnibus:
Yes, and I hope this can be reviewed and changed. Justice was not done, and the military judge left military justice open to scorn.
NorthLeft12
@scav: This is exactly what it is.
If people do not understand by now that there are three levels of justice in the world then they are deliberately deluding themselves.
Level One – For the ELITE [rich, powerful, authority].
These people are too important to be punished.
Level Two – For the middle class, generally caucasian.
Almost arbitrary. Depends on contributing factors. Probably how a real justice system would operate.
Level Three – For the poor, minorities, social outcasts, anyone who challenges authority or the establshed order.
Harsh.
NOTE: I have absolutely no data to back up this opinion. Just the constant barrage of anecdotes and incarceration rates for different groups of people.
Villago Delenda Est
@Elizabelle:
Who very obviously was a good one who inculcated the what I think are the right set of values for an officer in his daughter.
Joey Giraud
@Mandalay:
In 2000 when Powell came on with the Bush Gangsters I remember thinking “well this will wipe away that halo.”
There was a time when centrist liberals were essentially praying for Saint Powell to save us all. I guess some are still kneeling at that altar.
Even without considering My Lai, I suspected Powell’s too-fast rise through the ranks. Looks good, kisses ass.
Joey Giraud
@Mandalay:
Not to mention that Jane Fonda is an actress, not Secretary of State.
Paul in KY
@JC: He certaimly should be busted back to Colonel, at least.
(a big blow to anyone who has got to O-7 or above)
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: Busting him to LTC is abiggie, for a General.
I would have liked Captain (non-Navy version).
Paul in KY
@Villago Delenda Est: I agree. Many fine oficers left tghe Army when it bacame apparent what a clusterfuck Iraq was & how crazy their civilian leaders were.
Paul in KY
@JPL: Ms. Fonda should certainly be forgiven. She was very young then & idealistic & dumb too (I guess). She was trying (in her own way) to end the war & get our troops the fuck out of there.
Villago Delenda Est
@Paul in KY: MGens who had been division commanders retired early.
Officers who are selected to command divisions are probably certain to get a third star after a successful command, and are being groomed for the top positions in the organization. If you lose them, you’re in trouble. Then there’s the exodus of senior captains/majors and mid to upper range NCOs. Devastating for the future of the organization.
You’re left with guys like Sinclair who can’t control their little soldiers.