What Atrios Said

I’ll support her if she gets the nomination, but I’m not looking forward to the shitshow of bickering and backbiting that will inevitably accompany a Clinton campaign.

The Obama campaign was remarkably leak- and drama-free, especially when you consider that any such enterprise contains a number of enormous egos by its very nature. Until 2008, it might have made sense to assume that a cloud of anonymous quotes, public airing of private laundry, and incompetent stoogery by high-paid consultants was just the price of a successful political campaign. Obama’s run was an object lesson that campaigns don’t need to be run like a high school glee club. Perhaps that’s because Obama means it when he says he’ll fire you if you leak. Just as obviously, judging from the first of what I’m sure will be hundreds of “Hillary Insiders Say” stories, her staff (real or wannabe) doesn’t believe the same about her.

So I agree with Atrios on this one.






230 replies
  1. 1
    different-church-lady says:

    I’m not looking forward to the shitshow of bickering and backbiting that will inevitably accompany a Clinton campaign.

    Oh? And which candidate’s shitshow of bickering and backbiting are you looking forward to?

  2. 2
    Another Holocene Human says:

    You made me click on an eschaton link. Grr.

  3. 3
    CONGRATULATIONS! says:

    The Obama campaign was remarkably leak- and drama-free

    The Clinton teams thrive on that shit. I’m not looking forward to 2016 at all.

  4. 4
    Another Holocene Human says:

    Nobody seems to want to grapple the question of how Hilary makes it through the Democratic primaries after having deeply insulted such a significant part of the Democratic Party voter base back in 2008.

    In case y’all hadn’t noticed, African American voter participation is up AND African American voters are not dropping off in off-year elections as they have in the past. It would seem to me that primaries are also fair game in this scenario. I see no sign that Hilary Clinton has any clue what a liability this is and so far she has done nothing to mend fences.

    Good luck with that, Team Hilary.

    ps: Ditto for that Schweitzer guy–anybody trying to sell himself to DEMOCRATS with “I renounce Barack Obama and all his works” is DOA. What a t00b.

  5. 5
    evolved beyond the fist mistermix says:

    @Another Holocene Human: Schweitzer is DBA – dead before arrival.

  6. 6
    Betty Cracker says:

    I’m 100% with the “Hillary insiders” quoted in the MoJo article — Mark Penn is an incompetent, amoral piece of shit, and if Clinton lets him within 500 miles of her campaign, she’s a fool.

  7. 7
    Another Holocene Human says:

    Of course it is way early in the game … who’s to say who is going to hire OfA veterans … watch the hires … that’s who’s going to win … by the time Obama endorses somebody it will already be over

    ETA: Hilary is not hiring them right now, they are working on Texas right now

  8. 8
    aimai says:

    I’ll vote for her if she’s the nominee. And I hope if she’s the nominee enough Obama veterans come over to her that they simply defenestrate the crappy Clinton holdovers. I’m hopeful that a lot of the bob shrum types have literally decayed away and that she is too smart to work with her old crew. And I have zero hope that the other novices–because who are we talking about here? Martin O’Malley? have the personal chops to pull together a team of heroes to do the Obama thing all on their own. It pays to have run a national campaign before, even if it sucked, and to have been up for the big battles which (in her case) include two of Clinton’s presidential runs plus her own.

    Obama caught lightning in a bottle and was an incredible manager. I don’t think thats easily replicable. We have to hope that age has seasoned her and made her viciously shrewd. For damned sure I don’t think she will ever make Obama’s mistake of thinking that she will get any kind of truce with the Republican party. She knows its going to be war to the knife from the get go.

  9. 9
    dedc79 says:

    I suggest a Shrum v. Penn wrestling match to see who gets the honor of finding a way to turn victory into defeat in ’16.

  10. 10
    Another Holocene Human says:

    I’m only halfway through my first cuppa but it really occurs to me that anybody working on Ready for Hilary right now is a total clown. With the seriously important races and campaigns going on, any REAL progressive would be working on that this year. So we can pretty much identify the clownhats and grifters by who would be doing pre-2016 right now DURING A CRUCIAL MIDYEAR ELECTION. MotherFUCKERS.

    There they are! The leeches sucking the blood off the working class!!!

  11. 11
    aimai says:

    @Another Holocene Human: I doubt very much that this is an issue at all. She willingly worked with Barack Obama in a subordinate position for years. Unlike Schweitzer she didn’t stab him in the back as her boss, ever. Biden was forgiven for “he’s articulate” why shouldn’t she be forgiven for sharp elbows during the primary? However, I agree that it would be disgraceful and very damaging to her candidacy if she ran on distancing herself from Obama and his administration which, unfortunately, I’m pretty sure every Democratic candidate will do because they are so fucking stupid.

  12. 12

    Unrelated but as you all know that SNL loon Victoria Jackson is running for a local office here in Tennessee and my local fishwrap did an interview with her, which I link to in this blog piece. And it’s just clear from reading this story that there’s something really wrong with her. Like, she’s got some cognitive disorder or something. I mean, I’m not a doctor so I don’t know, but she’s just not normal. Not in the right-wing “not normal” but just in medical terms.

  13. 13
    JMG says:

    Don’t forget that the veterans of prior Clinton campaigns, even the 2008 one, are considerably older than they were and thus almost surely have more developed political business interests of their own to protect. So they leak and spin to do so. It’s a pity Hillary won’t recruit a staff of primarily women under 35, which she could do but won’t.
    As for African-Americans holding the 2008 campaign against her, no poll I have ever seen indicates there’s a lick of truth in that. She was Obama’s Secretary of State for almost five damn years. That would indicate the hatchet was buried long ago.

  14. 14
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Another Holocene Human: I’m not so sure rank-and-file black voters (as opposed to political junkies who hang out at sites like this) are still pissed at the Clintons. I suspect her taking the SoS post in the Obama administration and both Clintons’ campaigning in the presidential election years mended a lot of fences, but we shall see, I guess. I find that those of us who marinate in this stuff daily have a skewed view of how it affects average voters, at least I find that’s the case in my own life.

  15. 15
    Another Holocene Human says:

    If African-American voters behave anything like Irish-American voters a generation ago… well… remember that joke about Irish Alzheimers? Though I wouldn’t call it grudges, more like “racist radar”. One strike and you’re out.

  16. 16
    raven says:

    @Another Holocene Human: And just why would they do that?

  17. 17
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Betty Cracker: Have you seen the blogs? Progressive OBots Unite and so on? Please Cut The Crap? Check the comments.

    And I pay attention to my coworkers, too. They aren’t that plugged in, but, you know, when you’re Black, it’s like being gay 15 years ago, you have to pay attention to this shit for survival. It took me years to gain the trust of a certain coworker and, boy, she puts Irish Alzheimers to shame. She’s like an encyclopedia of the Florida injustice system. (Of course she had to pick a fight with me because I asserted that Florida was among the worst, she says they’re all that way, well, to some degree yeah, but I’m not letting Florida off the fucking hook that easily.)

    Have you been paying attention to Black twitter? What about tumblr?

    I think you’d be SURPRISED at the salience of little slights like this years later to the average Black person. And if they don’t know, they’ll hear about it from relatives, friends, coworkers in short order as the election approaches. If anything, they’ll hear it from the older Black women who do much of the community mobilization. They DO NOT forget. And they have not forgiven Hilary Clinton or white feminists in general. So, you know, good luck with that.

  18. 18
    srv says:

    Look, you people need to get on board and chill. Back in 2009, I had two choices. Take Xanax or place my faith in Krugman. Everybody else picked the 1mg blue pill, and I picked Krugman.

    Hitlary is going to be the next President of the United States of America.

    Just accept that reality and the next few years will be so much easier to roll with.

  19. 19
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @raven: Did you wake up that obtuse or is this your unstoppable trolling technique?

  20. 20
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @JMG: The polls putting her up against generic republican? What does that prove, a known quantity D kills a known quantity R? Not good for the Republican party, surely.

    I certainly haven’t seen any polling against other Democrats. She lost the last one that mattered.

  21. 21
    Roger Moore says:

    @dedc79:

    I suggest a Shrum v. Penn wrestling match to see who gets the honor of finding a way to turn victory into defeat in ’16 if we can get rid of both of them in one fell swoop.

    FTFY.

  22. 22
    Keith G says:

    @aimai:

    I doubt very much that this is an issue at all.

    But it seems there are some who wish to make it an issue.

    Historically, very nature of Democratic presidential campaigns have tended to made them a bit clown show ish because of the wide range of coaltions and constituencies involved in the process. Republican campaigns were often more tightly held.

    Since Obama entered politics determined to run for president, he developed his inner circle first and then begin a campaign. That made a big difference.

  23. 23
    kc says:

    Wow, three whole sentences.

  24. 24
    kc says:

    Wow, three whole sentences.

  25. 25
    Cacti says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    If African-American voters behave anything like Irish-American voters a generation ago… well… remember that joke about Irish Alzheimers? Though I wouldn’t call it grudges, more like “racist radar”. One strike and you’re out.

    The Clinton’s dogwhistle politics of 2008 definitely have not been forgotten.

    Whether they are forgiven remains to be seen.

  26. 26

    I have no problem with Hillary running, I hope she does run. If she doesn’t, who else would be a strong national candidate with an actual chance of winning? Please don’t say Elizabeth Warren, I’m talking about realistically.

  27. 27
    WaterGirl says:

    @Cacti: I haven’t forgiven or forgotten the Clinton racist dog whistles from 2008, and I’m white.

  28. 28
    EconWatcher says:

    I’m tired of the Bill and Hillary show. I think it’s time for a woman candidate, but not H. I hope H. decides not to run and we get Gillibrand. Warren might be great, but I thought her speech at the convention wasn’t very well delivered.

  29. 29
    Keith G says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    They DO NOT forget. And they have not forgiven Hilary Clinton or white feminists in general. So, you know, good luck with that.

    So you are saying in 2016 that the PUMAs are/might be going to look a lot different than they did in 2008?

    Fun times.

  30. 30
    WaterGirl says:

    @EconWatcher: My best friend is a physicist and her speech at the convention was the only one that stood out for him. He didn’t know her name or who she was ahead of time, but he was very excited about what she had to say and how she said it.

    That said, I don’t think she has the slightest interest in being president, and she certainly doesn’t have foreign policy experience.

  31. 31

    @Cacti:

    The Clinton’s dogwhistle politics of 2008 definitely have not been forgotten.

    You’ve got Paul Ryan talking about the “cultural” problem of “inner city men” who just aren’t interested in working — I’d say dogwhistle politics is neither exclusive to the Clintons nor buried in 2008. Indeed, it’s only gotten worse since a black man had the audacity to get into the White House.

  32. 32
    Gin & Tonic says:

    OT, but there hasn’t been an open thread all day. Now it’s Estonia’s turn to worry.

  33. 33
    dedc79 says:

    @Roger Moore: I’d definitely be happy/relieved if I never had to see either one of them on a Dem campaign again.

  34. 34
    EconWatcher says:

    I will never forgive Bill Clinton for Marc Rich. After I had spent so much time defending Bill on the Lewinsky thing with wingnut relatives, I was left speechless on the Rich pardon. There is no defense for it, and I didn’t try to make one.

    Reasonable minds can differ on whether it was the political donations or something Bill had going with Rich’s ex-wife (maybe both). But either way, it was just sleazy and absolutely disgusting.

    Is it fair to blame Hillary for that? I don’t know, but she was one of Bill’s closest advisors. I’d blame any of his advisors who didn’t try to stop it. Did she?

  35. 35
    Bill B says:

    I’m done voting for servants of The Corporation. Dems and Rebubs, it’s like that last scene in “Animal Farm.” Tell me that’s childish and simplistic,but can you tell me it’s not true?

  36. 36

    After no-drama Obama, Hillary Melodrama will be hard to take.

  37. 37
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Another Holocene Human: I didn’t say no black person anywhere is pissed off at the Clintons; I’m well aware many are, and I was too back in 2007-2008 (PUMA Wars!). I just don’t think it’s that widespread a phenomenon now, given all the water under the bridge. What little data there is at this point seems to confirm that. I’m not a Hillary supporter, though obviously I’ll vote for her if she wins the nomination, since I’m not stupid.

  38. 38
    Violet says:

    I’m discouraged by the lack of a bench for the Democrats. Hilary gets all the attention and Biden’s name comes up from time to time–both of them are old. What other names come up? Schweitzer? Not a chance. Martin O’Malley? Who? No one else out there has the energy that someone like Obama had at this time prior to the 2008 campaign.

    Although they’re crazy, I see a lot of young people fighting it out for the Republicans–Rubio, Rand Paul, Cruz, Paul Ryan, etc. Even some of the “old timers” like Santorum aren’t that old. They’re nutters, but at least they’ve got a lot of nutters who all seem equally crazy (to me) and plausible as candidates (to Republicans).

    I don’t think I’m explaining myself well, but I want a collection of young, vibrant, non crazy people who can reasonably be considered as candidates for the Dems. I want a deep bench. I just don’t see it.

  39. 39
    EconWatcher says:

    @Violet:

    Until someone convinces me otherwise, I think the key name you’re missing is Gillibrand.

  40. 40

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    After no-drama Obama, Hillary Melodrama will be hard to take.

    What the fuck? What country have y’all been living in for the past 6 years?

    I must be missing something here in the conversation. For the past 6 years we’ve had nothing but right-wing freak-out anti-Obama drama, from the birthers and every red state legislature passing bills demanding a presidential candidate’s “long form birth certificate” to bullshit about death panels and socialism and “anti-colonialism” and “Obama hates white people” etc. etc. etc.

    What fucking difference doesn’t it make if the “drama” comes from inside the campaign or outside? Jesus effin’ Christ, Obama may in reality be “no drama” but that didn’t stop Frank Luntz, Marsha Blackburn and The Daily Failure from completely making up a fake drama yesterday involving the White House pastry chef. The fucking pastry chef, people!

    Y’all are acting like we’ve been living in some kind of drama-free zone of political bliss these last 6 years and all I can say is, pass me the bong y’all. I want some of what you’ve been smoking.

  41. 41
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I finally got around to reading that “Planet Hillary” piece from the NYT Mag last week. I had to stop and bang my head against my desk when I saw that Lanny Davis is still oozing around. They made it sound like most of Bill’s old hands are being treated like retirees who still have keys to the building, which is good (Carville) and bad (Begala, who always struck me as the smartest and the least Clintonite (G-Steph excepted) of the old Clintonites).

    Sad bit about Betsy Wright, who apparently had some kind of breakdown and tried to smuggle a knife to a inmate she was working with through a prisoners’ advocacy group.

  42. 42
    Betty Cracker says:

    @EconWatcher: She’s someone to watch, for sure. She’s done some maddening triangulating, but that comes with the territory, I reckon…

  43. 43
    Trollhattan says:

    In my bleaker moments I envision a Clinton/Walker race in ’16. This vision does not make me happy, even if the choice is easy from a voter’s standpoint. If she screws up and he wins as a result….

  44. 44
  45. 45
    JMG says:

    @Violet: This happens to any party with a two-term President. The President soaks up all the attention. The Republican field of 2008 (not to mention 2012) wasn’t exactly full of depth and excitement. The problem is more noticeable for the Democrats because Biden isn’t the heir apparent most Vice Presidents are. Unjustly, IMO, but irrevocably, he’s been written off by the electorate as the guy in the Onion.

  46. 46
    kc says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Another edition of white people explaining how black people think.

  47. 47
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Violet: Schweitzer’s a jughead, O’Malley I think needs some media coaching, I always liked Ted Strickland. Any of them, or somebody like Kristin Gillibrand could (I think) substantially build their national profile by starting to go after the NSA/CIA

  48. 48
    Elizabelle says:

    @Violet:

    I’m disturbed by the “eggs in one basket” issue with Hillary.

    Democrats are saner than Republicans, with coherent policy positions.

    So where is the new generation?

    FWIW, I hadn’t ever heard of Barack Obama until 2006 or even 2007. Never saw his DNC speech.

  49. 49
    kc says:

    @Violet:

    I don’t think I’m explaining myself well, but I want a collection of young, vibrant, non crazy people who can reasonably be considered as candidates for the Dems. I want a deep bench. I just don’t see it.

    No, I think I understand you, and I feel the same way.

    I certainly don’t hate Hillary the way some people here do, but damn, where are the other possible contenders?

  50. 50
    kc says:

    @Southern Beale:

    Obama may in reality be “no drama” but that didn’t stop Frank Luntz, Marsha Blackburn and The Daily Failure from completely making up a fake drama yesterday involving the White House pastry chef

    Jesus H. Christ, tell me you’re kidding.

  51. 51
    Svensker says:

    @EconWatcher:

    Don’t think she’s changed her stripes much. She kept her mouth shut about the Iran talks until AIPAC switched, then she got brave and agreed that the talks needed to go forward. She jumped right into the Ukraine thing speaking out against Putin and rattling sabres, when she should have hung back and let Obama be the lead speaker. Her instincts are all wrong. and she likes war way too much. I’ll vote for her over any Republican, but I’m not gonna be happy about it.

  52. 52
    EconWatcher says:

    @Svensker:
    Ditto.

  53. 53
    eric says:

    Let me see if i get this right….there are people out there that think that Barack Obama is not going to energize the black vote. I think he will stump his black-ass off to protect his signature achievement and if that means stumping for Hillary, stump he will. Further, the powers that be will rally around her because there is way too big a risk that the dems will not control both houses and that means Obamacare could unravel in ways too horrible to imagine. The fix is in because the corporate types want it and Obama needs it.

  54. 54
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Another Holocene Human: So you think Black voters are silly enough to hold grudges against Mrs. Clinton so tightly that they skip voting in 2016 and hand a victory to the Republicans, who have made it very clear that they hate Blacks to the core? I’m Black and I still love me some Bill Clinton. Yes, Hilary and Bill weren’t nice during the 2008 primary (to say the least) but I’m not going to hold that against them and hand the White House to the opposing team. That would be reckless.

  55. 55
    Tommy says:

    @kc: My best friend is African American. We have these deep conversations. I never know what he is thinking. I might use this stereotype to assume he thinks this or that. Rarely the case.

    My favorite or most interesting conversation with him is that he is sick of blacks being racist against him. He is Creole. Or as some think not black enough. I didn’t know this was going on, but I think a real thing.

    He likes to joke that white people think he is too black and black people think not black enough.

  56. 56
    eric says:

    @Svensker: agreed. I think her political instincts are terrible as opposed to Bill’s, notwithstanding welfare reform.

  57. 57
    Cervantes says:

    @Southern Beale:

    that didn’t stop Frank Luntz, Marsha Blackburn and The Daily Failure from completely making up a fake drama yesterday involving the White House pastry chef.

    I saw the Howley article. What role did Luntz and Blackburn play?

  58. 58
    Alex S. says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The russian version of Heim ins Reich

  59. 59

    Hillary’s still stuck with “debts” that she needs to repay and/or the belief that because someone was once useful (Penn), they’ll be useful now. I fear that we too rarely ask, “Is our Hillary learning?”

    Am not looking forward to 2016. Don’t blame me, I’m gonna vote for Kodos.

  60. 60
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @eric: If Bubba didn’t encourage her to vote for the Iraq War, it’s because he didn’t need to. He was all for it. And I’ll never believe he wasn’t the devil on her shoulder encouraging her to refuse to admit she was wrong.

    Another nugget from that NYT Mag article, Bubba and his closest advisers (I figure Carville) resent Democrats from not treating Bubba with the same reverence Reagan gets from Repubilcans.

  61. 61
    Gene108 says:

    @aimai:

    There’s a needle to thread, wrt to Biden or Hillary, if either run to establish an indentity independent of their old boss Obama and accept stuff like the ACA, Dodd-Frank, etc are part of Obama’s legacy and not their legacy.

    GHWB had an issue with this in the 1988 campaign, but decided to do photo-ops in front of American flags and race bait, rather than deal with what parts of Reagan’s legacy he’d continue and what he’d do differently.

    It is hard for us to remember but GHWB was protracted as a “wimp”, when he was VP.

    Anyway, the white guy or gal who runs for the Democrats in 2016 is going to face the very real temptation of trying to win back the poor-white-not-voting-for-a-black-guy vote, which might get some votes in WVa but could alienate turn out in NC and VA.

    In NC a very unpopular Republican governor will be up for re-election and I assume the Moral Mondays folks will not be stopping until the governorship changes hands; as the legislature is gerrymandered enough to be harder to flip, ie the Dem Pres nominee will have to deal with Rev. Barber to win NC.

  62. 62
    hoodie says:

    @Violet: That’s somewhat of an illusion, at least as far as the GOP bench goes. The reason you don’t feel there’s a deep bench for the Dems is the same reason you don’t feel that way about a team with veteran stars, the guys on the bench don’t get any attention. The Dems have a sitting president and a former SOS who probably would have been president but for the former. The GOP has no sitting president and none of their legislative leaders is presidential material, so their young guys get more playing time. However, they’re mostly A-ball talent that gets hyped but has never had to hit against major league pitching (Santorum is a career minor leaguer). Hillary is a much stronger candidate than any of these pygmies on the GOP side. If she doesn’t run, other Dems will rise to the top and probably be just as much or more appealing than anything the GOP has once they start getting attention. No one knew who the hell Bill Clinton was before he beat a sitting GOP president who had just won a war. He was just a guy who gave a really boring convention speech. The way we lose is if Hillary phones it in by using hacks like Penn. If she’s going to do that, then she needs to get the hell out of the way.

  63. 63
    different-church-lady says:

    Midterms, people, MIDTERMS! [snaps fingers in face]. Wake up!

  64. 64
  65. 65
    catclub says:

    @WaterGirl: The more of these I see, the more I wish Biden would run, and Hillary not run. Every part of the party seems to love him.

  66. 66
  67. 67
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @different-church-lady: Good point. I move every 2016 gossip/speculation thread be accompanied by an ActBlue link to a good Democrat or one of the campaign funds. Let’s everybody pray that a year from now we’re all goddamming those fucking Blue Dog Liebercrats Nunn and Grimes stabbing us in the back after they vote for Harry Reid as leader and we all wish Scalia a long and silent retirement.

  68. 68

    @kc:

    Sorry, not joking.

  69. 69
    Elizabelle says:

    Haven’t read the thread, and need to but:

    The MSM press corpse serve as gatekeepers, do they not, and they are wired for GOP talking points and press releases.

    No matter how flawed, we hear all damn day about Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, anyone with (R) after his/her name and a pulse. If someone from the Bush dynasty aspires to higher office, we hear about it.

    All I hear about as Dem contenders are Martin O’Malley, Kristine Gillibrand, maybe Amy Klobuchar, of course Elizabeth Warren …

    Mostly, the MSM is telling me that Democrats are DOOMED, DOOMED we tell you — in the midterms even though Republicans in Congress have the lowest rating I’ve ever seen.

    And people are signing up for Obamacare, and they’re thrilled to be losing the “pre-existing conditions” screening (no matter who they credit that to).

    But Democrats are DOOMED, DOOMED and they can’t run on their record or their unpopular president.

    Uh huh.

  70. 70

    @different-church-lady:

    Thank you.

    We need to do some major outreach to our base voters this time. No excuses.

  71. 71
    Tommy says:

    I don’t dislike Hillary, but I don’t want to vote for her. That she took the State Department job and seemed to kick ass makes me like her more. A lot more. When you lose an election and then take a job in said administration and rock it, well I am a fan.

    But I just don’t want to vote for her. Not liberal enough for me. Closer to Wall Street then I would like. More pro-war then I would like. Again I like the lady, but doesn’t mean I want to vote for her.

  72. 72
    kc says:

    @Cervantes:

    Well, I see in her link that Luntz tweeted that the chef resigned “over Michelle Obama’s anti-pastry campaign.”

  73. 73

    @Southern Beale: I am not fond of Hillary and Bill, yes she will be 100 times better than any Republican nominee and I will canvass for her if she is the nominee. However, I want to see what my other choices are before I jump on the Hillary bandwagon.

    ETA: Drama, follows the Clintons everywhere, that Republicans are awful does not change this fact. I have no desire to find out about Bill’s post Presidency bimbettes and have no use for their neo-liberal economic agenda either.

  74. 74

    @kc:

    They took a (no pun intended) “puff” piece about how much the pastry chef was inspired by Michelle Obama’s focus on health to the point where he is leaving to start a healthy food initiative in NYC and, with out of context quotes, made it seem that the pastry chef couldn’t tolerate FLOTUS’ demonization of fat, butter and eggs and was leaving in disgust.

    It was quite a piece of performance art, the way they did it.

  75. 75
    Cervantes says:

    @kc:

    Well, I see in her link that Luntz tweeted that the chef resigned “over Michelle Obama’s anti-pastry campaign.”

    I saw that. (Thanks.) I also saw in her article the following:

    It appears this whole smear started in the most predictable of places: the lying liar Frank Luntz

    This is the part I’m asking about.

  76. 76
    Belafon says:

    I am one of those people who believes in accepting a lot of people’s quirks because they have to accept mine. I’m pretty easy to get along with, and can both take and give orders when the situation arises. But we have this one guy who I had to go up to the person in charge and tell her that I will not work with him.

    I’m not going to figure out how many leaks in the last campaign were Penn related, but this may just be a warning shot from people who Clinton will need.

  77. 77
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Patricia Kayden: I was talking about the primary. Who said anything about African American voters staying home in the general? Certainly not me.

    Although somebody stayed home during the Alex Sink-Batboy contest and it wasn’t me. Sorry, got a guy at work who was digging everybody for voting for Batboy and it turned out HE didn’t vote. He thought Sink sucked in the debate. She probably did. She kinda sucks. But she isn’t a crook like Voldemort. Pissed about what she did in the special election. Maybe that is coloring my view of Hilary Clinton. Another “inevitable” older white female rich conservadem candidate who bigfoots the primary, sucks up volunteer time and dollars and then goes on to lose.

  78. 78

    WP eated my comment so I am trying again:
    @Southern Beale: I am not fond of Hillary and Bill, yes she will be 100 times better than any Republican nominee and I will canvass for her if she is the nominee. However, I want to see what my other choices are before I jump on the Hillary bandwagon.

    ETA: Drama, follows the Clintons everywhere, that Republicans are awful does not change this fact. I have no desire to find out about Bill’s post Presidency bimbettes and have no use for their neo-liberal economic agenda either.

  79. 79

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Well, I think I asked that question up-thread. What are our other choices? And I mean realistically speaking? Elizabeth Warren won’t get elected, she’s a Dennis Kucinich choice. Joe Biden? Who else do we have? Who do we have with national name recognition? I can’t think of anyone. John Kerry again? Not gonna happen. We don’t have a deep bench right now.

    Hillary is the only name I can think of.

  80. 80
    Violet says:

    @Southern Beale:

    What fucking difference doesn’t it make if the “drama” comes from inside the campaign or outside?

    I think it makes a big difference. When the drama comes from outside the campaign or administration, the candidate or president is the calm adult in the room, the one who gets to look Presidential. When it comes from inside, it at best shows chaos and lack of cohesion in the campaign or administration and worst is an example of a real problem (like Bill’s wandering dick and the Monica Lewinsky situation).

    Being president is stressful enough without the administration creating its own problems. I much prefer the no drama Obama style and letting the crazy people try to get something to stick.

  81. 81

    @Cervantes:

    I’m right here. What’s your question?

  82. 82
    geg6 says:

    I almost hope she doesn’t run just because I’m so sick of the whining about her among a certain crowd. And then I remember, they’ll whine no matter who wins the Dem nomination.

    There are days when I hate my own side more than I hate the GOPers.

    And before it even begins, no, I was never a PUMA.

  83. 83
  84. 84
    geg6 says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Seriously? You know a lot of African Americans who were so insulted by Hillary back in 2008 that they won’t vote for her in 2016?

    I don’t. Especially not the women. The minority women I know like Hillary vastly more than I do.

  85. 85
    Cassidy says:

    We need someone young, maybe only
    In there mid 60’s, who can be hip with the 20 y/o’s.

  86. 86
    ethan gach says:

    But will you support her in the primary? That’s where the real choice is, no?

  87. 87
    ethan gach says:

    But will you support her in the primary? That’s where the real choice is, no?

  88. 88
    Cacti says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Did you see that the new Russia-affiliated government of Crimea is already “asking” the Tatars to vacate their land “in exchange for new territory”?

    Didn’t even wait a week.

    Never fear though. BIP will be around to tell us that they had it coming and are actually fascists.

  89. 89
    Archon says:

    Whatever hard feelings black folks have about the undignified way Hillary ended her campaign is miniscule compared to the fury we have for how the Republican party treated a magnanimous, unifing figure like Barack Obama. Conservatives have spent the past 6 years making a mockery of ideas like loyal opposition, compromise and improving racial tension. You think blacks folks will forget that because Hillary and Bill said a couple dumb things in 2008?

    If Hillary promises no quarter for the Republican party over their antics during the Obama era she will get black support, take that to the bank.

  90. 90
    Violet says:

    @Southern Beale: That was my point that the bench isn’t deep. hoodie said it wasn’t really true–that we just haven’t heard of Dems who might run yet. Okay, if that’s that’s true, let’s make a list. Realistically to run for President, someone needs a reasonable amount of experience in higher office. They should be a Governor or Senator or maybe Congressperson, but that’s less likely. They could be the former one of those but not too former.

    So who’s out there? Al Franken? The governor of Kentucky–the one who’s supporting the implementation of Obamacare so strongly? Gov. Jerry Brown? Who are we not thinking of?

  91. 91
    Anoniminous says:

    Bernie Sanders has been making noises about running. If he does I’ll work for him in the primary. Otherwise, I got nothing. The only other people I’d work for is de Blasio or Greyson and the first isn’t ready for prime time and I’ve heard nothing about a possible Greyson run and if he loses his re-election (again) his is probably toast on the national level.

    All that takes a back seat to the 2014 mid-terms. We’ve really got to work at GOTV. There’s a lot GOP representatives that with a good Dem turnout coupled with the statistically inevitable lowering of the GOP base vote that are “on the cusp.” IF we GOTV I suspect we’ve got an even shot at taking the House.

  92. 92

    @geg6:

    I almost hope she doesn’t run just because I’m so sick of the whining about her among a certain crowd. And then I remember, they’ll whine no matter who wins the Dem nomination.

    My thoughts exactly. I remember before 2008 seeing the pre-pub list for all of these anti-Hillary books Regnery Publishing and Ingram and the other right-wing outfits had coming out, stuff like “American Evita” and “Dark Road To The White House” — what did they call it, the Hillary-haters’ book club? You just knew the right had planned this out months and even years in advance, they were so sure Hillary would get the nomination and then she didn’t! God I laughed so hard. Their entire plan just blew up in their faces. They had no idea what to do, it was hilarious.

    But they figured it out and started in on Plan B which was “Obama is a secret Muslim with a scary anti-white black pastor who wants reparations and also he’s not a citizen because he was raised in a madrassa” etc. etc. You’d think that would be too crazy for anyone to believe but no, even the news media was covering “both sides” of the birther stories until they realized how ridiculous they looked.

    I’m afraid we’re stuck with this for a while.

  93. 93

    @ethan gach: Depends on two things, her competition and how she conducts her campaign.

  94. 94

    @Violet:

    I’m afraid if we “haven’t heard” of any Dems who might run in 2016 yet then it’s already too late. That’s the reality of our modern politics.

    Republicans are scrambling now that Christie has basically been taken out of commission, so desperate they’re bringing back Jeb Bush. If you “haven’t heard of” a politician at this point they are never, ever going to be a presidential contender this close to the election.

  95. 95

    @Anoniminous:

    All that takes a back seat to the 2014 mid-terms. We’ve really got to work at GOTV. There’s a lot GOP representatives that with a good Dem turnout coupled with the statistically inevitable lowering of the GOP base vote that are “on the cusp.” IF we GOTV I suspect we’ve got an even shot at taking the House.

    All this speculation about 2016 is too premature. The mid-terms are more important, right now.

  96. 96
    Anoniminous says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Oh how truly wonderful.

    Let’s revisit 1938 – 1939. It’s not like we have anything else to do.

  97. 97
    Cassidy says:

    We should nominate a real Liberal like Glenn Greenwald. Anything else would be a…slap in the face!

  98. 98
    Bill Arnold says:

    @Southern Beale:
    Maybe Cervantes is away from keyboard; basically, what is the causal timeline for the pastry chef smear?

  99. 99
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Southern Beale: I wonder how many Wall Streeters who think Joey Scar is gonna be their new guy get that he’s just trying to sell a book? Not that I couldn’t see him falling down the same rabbit hole of egotism as Newtie and Cain, thinking that he might really have a chance! In 2012 he seemed to think he might be at the top of a Bloomberg financed “No Labels” ticket, which is kind of funny that he thought Bloomaparte would want to put his bankroll(s) in the service of someone else’s career.

  100. 100
    Anoniminous says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    Yeah but it’s early and everything is happening in local meetings and state conventions that the National dumbshits political journalists are too ignorant lazy to cover. There’s column inches to fill, after all.

  101. 101
    gbear says:

    @Archon: I wish I could ‘like’ your comment.

    What the Democrats should be focusing on in the next two elections is what republicans will do to healthcare if they take the house, senate and presidency. The electorate is full of olds that really need to have it hammered into their thick skulls that Medicare, Medicaid and the ACA are all in danger of being trashed if we wind up with Ryan and jerks like him in charge. I’m not saying we should take women, POCs and GLBTs for granted, but many of the olds (of which I am one) are kind of stupid about only seeing issues that affect them, and I think that the most bang for the buck would come from convincing them that having republicans in charge would put them in a world of hurt.

  102. 102
    geg6 says:

    @Southern Beale:

    I really couldn’t care less what titles Regnery is hawking or any of the bitching from the other side of the aisle.

    I’m talking about the people from my own side of the aisle, as is easily seen just by reading the comments in this thread. I’ve never been a Clinton lover (either of them), but I find myself constantly defending them from the “I WILL ONLY SETTLE FOR THE UNICORN THAT POOPS MILK CHOCOLATE, NOT DARK CHOCOLATE!” crowd nearly every day lately. I’m hating on my own side and I don’t like it when that happens. Because it means we’re screwed, IMHO.

  103. 103
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @kc: Not really, just playing pundit based on my observations, just like others in this thread. So if it’s convenient for you to toss that out–and I’m not asserting how someone thinks, just a prediction about behavior, which is falsifiable, as we’ll all find out soon enough in two years–I wonder why you don’t lob that criticism on the white people in this thread who are arguing the opposite side of the same argument? It’s either the way I said it or that you disagree with what I said, and if the latter, that’s pretty weak. If the former, sure, I know how I come off. But I’m damned tired of white-dominated intra-liberal or progressive discussions that dismiss the most important Democratic voting blocks. It’s just contra-factual deathcultism. So I am going to continue to advocate to other white progressives to stop ignoring this. If I’m wrong in my predictions, I’m wrong.

    As for the thread in general, I’m disturbed by how many good Democrats seem to have conflated the primary and the general. I don’t care how Hilary polls right now against various R’s. It’s a truly irrelevant metric. The primary is where we are going to pick our next president. I don’t want Clinton or her shitshow of a posse. I think that’s obvious. I don’t see where Clinton has really addressed 2008. I am already nauseated at the argument that it’s her “turn” and we should all fall in line now. I’m personally disgusted by the politics implicit in that. Get off this shit about turns, seriously. Twitter … frightens me. Because in a big tent you have to make alliances, use empathy, listen, change, compromise for a greater goal. And the bag is decidedly mixed. Way too much “fuck your issues, they’re unserious” out there. And the worst offenders are white people.

    We still have the best president in our lifetime because some working class people of color were willing to crawl over broken glass to vote. I worked OfA in Florida. That was NOT easy. If we get a candidate who can’t run a field campaign, we’re fucked. Sure, the GOP brand is such a heap of shit they’re bound to lose, but we need to win more than POTUS. Elizabeth Colbert — lost. Alex Sink — lost. One failed to get POC to the polls, the other couldn’t motivate whites to choose her. I’m sorry, you have to do better than that.

  104. 104
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @gbear: Organizing around healthcare, including Medicaid expansion in red states, is a slam-dunk, no doubt about it.

  105. 105
    geg6 says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    The primary is where we are going to pick our next president.

    Maybe. But maybe we’re just picking the next Trivial Pursuit question and answer if we don’t pick the one who can win in the general. I think you’re crazy if you think that the primary is completely separate from the general. Or just naive. But you’re certainly not coming from any kind of reality based world.

  106. 106
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @EconWatcher: Marc Rich? Seriously? I mean, there are grudges to hold against Bill regarding things that actually affected people’s lives. I’d put the Marc Rich thing in the lower quartile at least.

  107. 107
    lamh35 says:

    as someone said above, I could see a scenario where African American voters consider Hilary a lock (i.e white folk gonna vote for her anyway, so why she would she need us) anyway and don’t really come out in large numbers for the primaries. they will however support her in the general, but still NOT in the record Obama numbers.

    now the question becomes will Hilary NEED AA to win the primaries…IDK. But if she did,then that would be a problem.

  108. 108
    Schlemizel says:

    I have been going to precinct caucuses since 1968. A big turn out might be 30-35 people, average a bit less than 2 dozen for a presidential election year, half that on the off years. I went to the 2008 caucus totally unprepared for what happened. We had over 250 people show up to vote, almost all of them African-American. They came for one reason and one reason only, to vote for BHO. I was not a supporter of his (or HRC) until that moment. I became one because I knew he would generate a turn out that would crush a lot of goopers.

    I bet ’16 will return us to 30-35 at best. I do not expect people of color to be excited about any European-American, why would they be? I strongly suspect many will put HRC in the “them” camp (and I doubt they have forgotten “he’s articulate” either). Many will vot for whomever the Dem nom is because the alternative is so much worse but many more will go back to not really caring to see a difference.

  109. 109
    geg6 says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Yeah, gotta agree there. I don’t know anyone to whom I defended Bill during the impeachment that came back later screaming about how shameful it was that he pardoned Marc Rich. In fact, I’m probably the only person in my social circle who even knows or knew who Marc Rich was, what he was convicted for or that Clinton even pardoned him.

    Seems to be a bit of a weird thing to hold again Hillary, who wasn’t the one with the power to pardon anyway.

  110. 110
    StringOnAStick says:

    @Origuy: Wow, that was interesting. Usually I can look at that list of Noisemax headlines and automatically know where the BS/lies/distortion is coming from. I have to admit that the ‘pastry chef’ story had me stumped, but not interested enough to give that crap website a click. Talk about a willful and obvious distortion of the actual facts….

  111. 111
    gbear says:

    @Schlemizel: Do you think that maybe Hillary might double the turnout for women? Maybe 60-70 participants?

  112. 112

    @geg6:

    Well I view the titles Regnery is hawking as a peek inside the GOP playbook, because they coordinate everything and you can see what their strategy and messaging is by looking at what media they’re prepping, and it was fun for me to see their entire plan get upended.

    But regardless, you say you’ve never been a Clinton lover and never seen a lot of support for the Clintons from your own side of the aisle, yet Clinton supporters are usually derided as DINOs and DLCers and clueless Beltway insiders and the like. Those people obviously exist they’re just not commenting on blogs like this one.

    Whatever, I’m a Clinton supporter, I’ll vote for her in the primary, I don’t see any viable alternative on the horizon and I think she’s tough and will make a great president. I also think the mouthbreathing anti-Clinton “Vince Foster Was Murdered” fringe is as stale as 8-year-old cheese at this point, every horrible conspiracy that could be said about her has already been said to the point where it’s parody and the “BENGHAZIIII!!11!!!” crap isn’t resonating beyond the Victoria Jackson crowd.

    So there.

  113. 113
    Violet says:

    @geg6: Yep, Divide and conquer. It’s a strategy that works.

    @gbear:

    The electorate is full of olds that really need to have it hammered into their thick skulls that Medicare, Medicaid and the ACA are all in danger of being trashed if we wind up with Ryan and jerks like him in charge

    And almost-olds. People in the 80’s–the age of Ryan’s mom–aren’t going to be that affected by any changes he and his cronies enact. People in their 60’s will though. And 50’s. Target people in those age groups on those issues.

  114. 114
    geg6 says:

    @gbear:

    Thanks, that needed said. I’m telling you, the African American women I know LOVE her. Just love her. And I can’t even begin to tell you the level of anticipation among my fellow white women of a certain age. And to top it off, the college age women I interact with every day also admire her to a degree I find a little surprising. She could make that gender gap a fucking grand canyon.

  115. 115
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Any of them, or somebody like Kristin Gillibrand could (I think) substantially build their national profile establish herself as the Chris Dodd of this cycle by starting to go after the NSA/CIA

    NSA/CIA issues will be about #20 on the list of importance to voters, but they will get a lot of attention from Matt Stoller niche activists who will be so grateful for the attention to their pet issues that they will overlook the candidate’s prior lack of interest, as well as his horrible positions on other issues.

  116. 116
    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader says:

    I’m actually looking forward to the drama and contentiousness of a Clinton campaign and presidency after eight years of boring Obama trying to get the Republicans to like him.

  117. 117
    gbear says:

    @Violet: I’m thinking that if they have all three branches of government, they’ll find a way to screw the 70 & 80 year olds too. Why hold back?

  118. 118
    geg6 says:

    @Southern Beale:

    Oh, I’ll be voting for her. I just have never been a big fan. But I’d do anything to get her into office in 2016, no doubt. First, I’m a woman of a certain age; I want a woman to be president before I die. Seriously. And second, I think she’ll win and win big with sails for coattails. After that, it’s up to me and like-minded people to keep her on the right path.

  119. 119

    What is really annoying about HRC and her supporters, is that they want to anoint her as the nominee before a single primary, just like they did last time. They seem to have learned nothing.

  120. 120
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @geg6: And I think you’re not learning the lessons of the last several elections, including the NYC mayoral primary.

    Why, pray tell, would non-Hilary lose the general? Will the GOP become any less vile?

  121. 121
    geg6 says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I have not seen anything of the kind from HRC and the only people I’ve seen annointing her are the people who put the knives in her back during her husband’s administration (I’m looking at you, Chris Matthews!).

    See? This is what I was talking about. I’m not a giant Hillary fan, but here I am defending her because of what seem to me to be unfair prejudices.

  122. 122
    Anoniminous says:

    @gbear:

    Hillary will definitely increase woman participation. Hillary will lose some voters because girl-cooties. Hillary will gain some votes from ’08 and ’12 because racism. Hillary will lose some votes because she is a fer-shit campaigner and manager. I suspect AA vote will diminish somewhat because a 95%+ turnout for any demographic is beyond crazy.

    The question to all of the above is, “by how much?” and the question is unanswerable this far ahead.

  123. 123
    Marc says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Let’s everybody pray that a year from now we’re all goddamming those fucking Blue Dog Liebercrats Nunn and Grimes stabbing us in the back after they vote for Harry Reid as leader and we all wish Scalia a long and silent retirement.

    This. This, this, a thousand times this.

    Kos had a piece a day or two ago about how the Dem coalition in Congress is much stronger now than it was ten years ago. Which is obviously true on the Senate side (we actually have a couple fewer seats in the House), but he kept crowing about all the Blue Dogs who’d retired or got defeated, and I kept thinking “yeah, and they were all replaced by Republicans.” Not a win for us.

  124. 124
    Violet says:

    @geg6:
    I think the fact that when she lost to Obama in the Dem primary she licked her wounds, showed up at the convention and supported him wholeheartedly, and then took a job in his administration showed her to be a good loser not a sore loser. Those actions are examples of her character and she came out looking good. There’s a lot to admire just in those actions.

    I can see how she’s admired by college age women. And I think you’re right–there could well be a lot of crossover by women who decide once they’re in the private voting booth they’re going to vote for the first woman president.

  125. 125
    Glocksman says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    True.
    His choice of SecTreas and the repeal of Depression era banking laws affected everyone far more than did pardoning Marc Rich.
    That said, the pardon was despicable, and I’ll say the same thing if Obama is venal enough to issue similar pardons before he leaves office.

  126. 126
    geg6 says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    I’m not predicting anyone as nominee yet. I’m just saying that Bill DeBlasio isn’t going to win any primary or general elections in Western PA or Eastern OH, the places where I’ve been politically active for forty years now. Ever. So, no, I won’t be wasting my time or vote by voting for him. I’m more interested in a politician who can win here and maybe pull back some of those working class white voters that have been lost to Dems here since Reagan.

  127. 127
    Marc says:

    @Anoniminous: On the plus side, she’ll probably gain some votes as diabetic white Tea Partiers fall off their Rascals and are replaced by college-aged gay Latino athiests.

  128. 128
    catclub says:

    @Cacti: Partition is always the best part of splitting a nation.
    Ask the Indians and Pakistanis.

  129. 129
    Glocksman says:

    @geg6:

    First, I’m a woman of a certain age; I want a woman to be president before I die.

    President Bachmann? :)

    At this stage I have no particular preference for 2016 other than ‘not the Republican’.
    Later on we’ll see who is running and stands a realistic chance.

    Though in 2006 at this point who other than people in Illinois and political junkies knew who Barack Obama was?

  130. 130
    Another Holocene Human says:

    I’m sorry for offending you and I will try to be more careful about how I express myself in the future. My views are definitely a mixture of emotion and evidence. Like most people on this thread, I want to win the election; I just disagree about how we get there.

  131. 131
    Roger Moore says:

    @geg6:

    I WILL ONLY SETTLE FOR THE UNICORN THAT POOPS MILK CHOCOLATE, NOT DARK CHOCOLATE!

    Are there actually people dumb enough to defend milk chocolate over the obviously superior dark chocolate? That said, I’ll take chocolate, or any other actual food stuff, ahead of tire rims and anthrax.

  132. 132

    @geg6: Are you saying that I am prejudiced against her, just because I want to know who her competition is?

  133. 133
    EconWatcher says:

    @Violet:

    I want a woman candidate in 2016 partly because it’s high time, but also because the politics are just unstoppable. You’d get lots of cross-over Republican women, and the number of knuckledragging men you’d lose would pale in comparison, because the vast majority of that kind weren’t going to vote Dem anyway. I just think there are better choices than H.

  134. 134
    geg6 says:

    @Glocksman:

    Okay, you got me. How about I edit that to say I want a Democratic woman to be president before I die?

  135. 135
    MomSense says:

    I will vote for the Democratic Nominee in 2016. The person who will get my vote in the primary is yet to be determined. One thing I will be looking at is how much the potential candidates do to elect Democrats in 2014. You don’t get to sit out 2014 or do the bare minimum and get my vote. There is a lot at stake in this election.

    I would also caution people looking at the polls now and imagining a big HRC sweep in 2016. With the Clintons there are known unknowns and unknown unknowns–and they have a way of messing everything up. I’m hoping for a vigorous and crowded field of candidates. Someone who seems like a novice now might season beautifully in a competitive nomination process.

  136. 136
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Cacti: You mean the Saudi Backed Tartars. I think he has his justification already.

    If the Tartars are expelled, that’s just blowback for US actions. Russia is only ever reacting to the negative things the US does, which pretty much makes it O.K.

  137. 137
    Anoniminous says:

    @Marc:

    Absolutely. By 2016 I expect the White percentage to fall below 70% which will have major repercussions on the Presidential and down ticket races. If the percentage ends-up being something like 68% I expect the GOP to get creamed outside of the South and even lose state-wide races in the South.

    Simply put: old white guys (like me) are becoming just one more voter demographic instead of the controlling margin-of-victory voter demographic.

  138. 138
    catclub says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: He finished his book tour, and announced that he won’t be running after all. Those two events are COMPLETELY unrelated.

  139. 139
    geg6 says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    No, but your comment seems to blame her for the stupidity of people who are not her and may or may not have her best interests at heart. I’m sure you don’t mean it that way, but it can be read that way very easily.

    And I don’t disagree with your underlying point. I, too, want to see what the real slate of candidates will be before I decide who I’ll support in the primaries. But, just as I did the last time around, I’ll pick the one I think has the best chance to win. My track record on that has been pretty good over the years, so we’ll see. It will probably be Hillary, but I can’t promise it will be.

  140. 140
    Glocksman says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    It’s just a tactic to intimidate others from running.
    Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.
    Though it becomes a real problem if she (or almost as important, the people running her campaign) starts believing her own PR.

  141. 141
    Roger Moore says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I wonder how many Wall Streeters who think Joey Scar is gonna be their new guy get that he’s just trying to sell a book?

    I don’t know. There’s a lot of grift available in a Presidential campaign. If he get started campaigning, I don’t expect him to stop until the money dries up.

  142. 142
    Violet says:

    @Glocksman:

    Though in 2006 at this point who other than people in Illinois and political junkies knew who Barack Obama was?

    A lot of people. He spoke at the 2004 Democratic Convention and a lot of people were excited about him. I remember visiting family in another state in 2007. They had high school and college aged kids who were beyond excited about Obama. They had been working for him for awhile at that point. Politically interested family but not a history of being super involved. Heard later the kids convinced the parents to vote for Obama in the primary.

  143. 143
    Kay says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I always liked Ted Strickland

    I liked Ted Strickland too and I tried real hard to get him re-elected but there wasn’t a lot of loyalty to him and that’s his own fault. He was really not a populist as a governor. He’s a wonderful populist speaker, but he was just fundamentally weak as a governor.

    After he lost in 2010 he wrote this ranty screed on Huffington Post about how Obama wasn’t enough of a populist, and that may have played to a national audience, but reading it from inside the state was just unreal. I was shocked at how hypocritical it was. The truth is, Strickland wasn’t a very good “man of the people” as a governor, up close and in reality. I have no idea why he thought he could lecture Obama on that.

    Richard Cordray is a rising star. Watch him. He’s smart as shit, really ambitious, and a resilient individual just as a human being, or that was my impression of him.

    He could win nationally, but first he’ll probably have to win as Ohio governor. He’s young enough to wait for an open race and a good year for that, and Obama and Elizabeth Warren’s CFPB is a great agency, so he can stay there until 2016 at least. He’s doing really good work. They’re just humming along.

  144. 144
    Another Holocene Human says:

    Back in 2012 we were gushing over the Dem bench. Is there a problem with people like:

    Gillibrand. I love what she’s been doing spearheading this thing about sexual violence in the military. Not aware of any serious negatives to her.
    Deval Patrick. Kind of a centrist and former Friend of Bill but my fam back in Mass LOVES him. The only problem–governor of Mass. Touch place to launch from.
    B00k3r. He wants to be president. He’s a bit of a fake to me but an extremely likeable fake and he’s good on our issues with exception of the money boyz. Good veep candidate, great campaigner I think.
    The Castro Bros. Mainly because I love San Antonio and I think the rest of the country will love it too, given time and exposure. Why not the big city mayor from Texas? TX, AZ, these are going to be important states.
    Does K Harris have any scandals besides Obama perving on her? I see her going for CA gov, maybe a national candidate next cycle?

    Malloy is toast. See: MD healthcare rollout. (Patrick has a mess going on too but it doesn’t stick to him so much. I don’t see the news articles shredding him over it. But Malloy ran on being the numbers/technocrat guy.)
    Sanders has a lot of questionable votes for our true progressive hero. JMHO.
    Fuck Cuomo.
    Villagorosa has some scandal smog surrounding his tenure in LA now.

    Our next candidate could be somebody none of us expects.

  145. 145
    StringOnAStick says:

    @Violet: I’m hoping that by 2016, enough people will realize just how having affordable health insurance has improved their lives, and any rethug plans to kill ACA will be a rotting albatross around their necks. Let’s hope that the people who have benefitted the most make the effort to vote, and the rethugs haven’t made voting even harder to do. I am not sure how much difference it will make in 2014; I’m hoping it will be more than I think it will.

    The real high leverage point with regard to voting in general and health care in particular has already been mentioned here: the Ryan et al plan to destroy Medicare and Social Security. At a time when most people in their 50’s or older haven’t got anything remotely in the same universe as enough to live on in retirement, any threat to the baseline programs for survival of the retired should be a white hot issue, and if the dems don’t seize it then I will be forced to conclude that they agree with the rethugs, just not as loudly. Having attended a presentation put on by both my democratic senators with Alan Simpson pimping Simpson-Bowles not too many years ago, I am highly suspicious but goddamn it, what choice do I have? I’m reality-based enough to know that “heightening the contradictions” voting is moronic; I do not want to hit my 60’s just in time for the shitstorm the rethugs have in mind for my middle class ass.

    I am reminded of the email arguments I used to get into with some Wall Street types 12 years ago about retirement; of course these glibertarians were all of the “retirement is not a right, it is a historic anomaly that is no longer viable so be rich or die” stripe. From what I can tell, their numbers have only increased, as has their Citizens United-purchased influence. Anyone middle class or lower had damned well better wake up for 2014 and 2016, because these elections will be the rethug/plutocrats last chance (demographically) to take that away from us. Any political argument I have with a winger is always based on “so, how do you plan on living in retirement if you no longer have Medicare or Social Security”? and I stay on that topic like a bulldog.

  146. 146
    Violet says:

    @Roger Moore:
    Who would be Joe Scarborough’s sugar daddy? One of the fun things about the Republican primary last time was watching all the wannabe’s whose candidacies were propped up by a billionaire.

  147. 147
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Suffern ACE: You make the Russian leadership sound suspiciously like Republicans, who just had to punish the poors because they voted for Obama who “promised them stuff”.

  148. 148
    Roger Moore says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Does K Harris have any scandals besides Obama perving on her? I see her going for CA gov, maybe a national candidate next cycle?

    I haven’t heard anything bad about her, but I assume she’s waiting to take on Boxer for the Senate nomination in 2016, or to run for Governor in 2018. I think she needs some office higher than CA AG before she has a real chance on the national scene.

  149. 149

    Deval Patrick. Kind of a centrist and former Friend of Bill but my fam back in Mass LOVES him. The only problem–governor of Mass. Touch place to launch from.

    Lousy ACA roll-out, in a state that already had functioning exchanges.

  150. 150
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @MomSense: Exactly. There’s a pro-Hilary PAC running around organizing right now as if there aren’t super critical elections coming up. You really think Clinton and her people are completely innocent of that?

    Where are Obama’s people? A: in Texas, trying to increase voter participation in the border counties.

    Is your goal improving the lives of ordinary Americans, or grifting? Some have already chosen.

  151. 151
    Glocksman says:

    @Violet:

    True, he gained name recognition from that 2004 speech, and he capitalized on it by building an organization that ultimately put him in the White House.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that there may be someone out there right now that we aren’t really aware of doing the same thing.
    I’ll vote for HRC if she gets the nomination but I’m not ready to anoint her as the nominee just yet.

  152. 152
    Violet says:

    @Another Holocene Human: The Castro brothers are a good example of the current Dem problem. In sports team terms they’re still in high school. Sure, there’s the rare exception of the high school kid who goes straight to playing professionally in big leagues, but mostly they go through farm teams (baseball) or college (football, basketball) before making the leap. They’re definitely up and comers, but not in time for 2016.

  153. 153
    Cervantes says:

    @Southern Beale: OK, I’ll try yet again. You wrote:

    It appears this whole smear started in the most predictable of places: the lying liar Frank Luntz

    I’m asking about the word in bold. (Thanks.)

  154. 154
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Bill and Hill have this ability, or trait, or tendency to attract followers who have an instinct for spilling gossip to the first Villager twit they come across, and that’s not really a good thing. Obama’s crew seems to be made up of people who despise the Village, Bill and Hill seem to have this neediness to be accepted by the Village. Bill’s perpetual problem is the desire to be liked, and Hillary picks up a bit of that.

  155. 155
    bemused says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I don’t remember where I read it today but Joe has now said he’s not running. He says there has been a lot of speculation and all but he can’t imagine where, oh, where people ever got the idea that he was going to run. His bewildered, innocent act was pretty hilarious.

  156. 156
    Betty Cracker says:

    @geg6:

    And to top it off, the college age women I interact with every day also admire her to a degree I find a little surprising.

    My teenage girl (who will be able to vote in 2016, god help us!) admires HRC a great deal. I think her preference for HRC is mostly about thinking it’s high fucking time we had a woman president. But yeah, I agree an HRC candidacy would result in an enormous gender gap.

    I supported Obama over HRC in 2008, but hell yeah, I want a woman president too. There wasn’t much of a difference policy-wise between Obama and HRC in 2008 (the Iraq War was the determining factor for me) and still isn’t so far as I can tell, so it’s not like going from Obama to HRC would be a giant step back for liberalism in the name of identity politics.

  157. 157
    askew says:

    @Violet:

    We have a deep bench –

    Gov. Martin O’Malley
    Gov. Deval Patrick
    Sen. Kristen Gillibrand

    to name the top 3. O’Malley is going to run even if Hillary does. He has a strong record to run on, has his own base of support, does well with all parts of the Democratic coalition, and has a great life story. He doesn’t need to have national recognition in March of 2014. He’ll have all of 2015 to run for the nomination before voting even starts.

  158. 158
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Glocksman: Exactly. Her people paid for these straw polls pitting her against hated GOPers. Like, of course she won. So what? It’s incredible the effect these polls have had on Democratic activists even though all they really mean is that Clinton has enormous name recognition and the GOP stinks.

    I’m sure Quinn outpolled Lhota, but who’s mayor now?

  159. 159
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Cacti: Saw that.

    Speaking of fascists, I wonder what any of the local “anti-fascists” would make of the Crimean election observers from the Eurasian Observatory for Democracy & Elections and the Parti Communautaire National-Européen? Good rundown here.

  160. 160
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Another Holocene Human: It is quite possible that both Ukraine and Russia are being run by their respective Tea Parties at the moment. Look, not everyone gets to take their country back. They really don’t.

  161. 161
    CONGRATULATIONS! says:

    Does K Harris have any scandals besides Obama perving on her? I see her going for CA gov, maybe a national candidate next cycle?

    @Another Holocene Human: When they unearth her record as DA of San Francisco she will be done for in national politics. She may well have hit her apex in CA politics because nobody knew about her last time. Too bad, she’s very left in a very good way. I’d love to see her take Feinstein out of office. Not Boxer, who is an actual Democrat.

  162. 162
    Violet says:

    @askew: I hope a lot of people on the Dem side run. It’s better practice for the eventual nominee to debate a variety of people. And it’s good practice and exposure for everyone else. It’s also good for Dems to see who people are, see what their options are, etc. I really hope Hilary doesn’t intimidate people from running.

  163. 163
    geg6 says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    That’s exactly how I feel about it. Exactly. I was an Obama booster from very early on, but it was really only the Iraq War vote that gave me pause about her. I would have voted for her in the general anyway, but Obama was my guy from mid-2007 on. I worked my ass off for him and I’ll do the same for her, if she runs and get the nomination.

  164. 164
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Violet: I wouldn’t dismiss the mayor of the 7th largest US city. If he can make the politics work in a mixed city like that, and it seems like his brand of retail politics is working to me, he can take that on the road to cities across the country. There is a deep, numerous Dem base in cities.

  165. 165
    Kay says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Strickland has that 1990’s Democratic thing, to me, that defensive twitch, that says there’s only one variety of “populist” and it has to be white rural people or it doesn’t “count”. Remember how they were all running around courting the mythical Reagan Democrats? He’s stuck in that. He’s like Chris Matthews. Jesus. Move on already. The Reagan Democrats are second generation Republicans by now. Stop courting them. If they’d even focus on younger rural people, like, um, working class WOMEN for example, but no, they have to keep chasing people who look like them. Those are the REAL voters! 60 year old white men, like them! Unless you get them it doesn’t “count”.

    It just infuriates me. They can’t keep wondering what’s the matter with Kansas. It was a long time ago.

  166. 166
    askew says:

    @Violet:

    I think the fact that when she lost to Obama in the Dem primary she licked her wounds, showed up at the convention and supported him wholeheartedly, and then took a job in his administration showed her to be a good loser not a sore loser. Those actions are examples of her character and she came out looking good. There’s a lot to admire just in those actions.

    Wow, she did the bare minimum after behaving like a complete nut job after Obama sealed up the nomination and having to have the CBC go and explain to her that her refusing to admit that she lost was shameful and multiple party elders had to appeal to her to get her to leave the race. And let’s not forget her campaign’s attempt to steal Michigan and Florida delegates that according to the rules were excluded from the primary or the fact that she wouldn’t leave the race until Obama agreed to help her pay down her debt. Yeah, she’s someone to admire alright.

  167. 167
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @CONGRATULATIONS!: Well, that sucks. Martha Coakley’s record is part of what did her in, completely aside from her, er, campaigning. I know this is so because I had just left the state and numerous people let me know they were sitting the race out months before the election. I would have done the same. Seriously. Never would have pulled a lever for her. Never.

  168. 168
    geg6 says:

    @Violet:

    Agreed. I’d very much like to see our second stringers get some exposure and practice.

    @askew:

    O’Malley is interesting to me. I have a friend/colleague who once worked for him when he was mayor. He can’t say enough good things about him. I’m not sure he’ll get the nomination this time around, but I think he can go far. He needs some good media consultants and speaking coaches, though. He’ll get some, but not sure if he will soon enough.

  169. 169
    askew says:

    @Kay:

    That’s the Clinton model without a doubt. And I am not looking forward to her alienating minorities and young voters while she panders to white, male voters. That’s why I want O’Malley as the nominee. He appeals to all parts of the Democratic base and he understands it is 2016 and not 1996. Plus, he has a list of real accomplishments to run on. Hillary has a list of positions she’s held where she did nothing.

  170. 170
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Suffern ACE: So both sides do it? Irrespective of the fact that Party of Regions, ie, the Russo-friendly establishment party still hold power in the Rada and the new named ministers were drawn from a variety of more center parties and for the most part were NOT either right-wingers, who were shut out, or young, anti-corruption activists who are pretty anti-establishment?

    Russians took to the streets of Moscow this week. Putin is busy jailing and beating up journalists and silencing them again. I think it’s an insult to those extremely brave, if not reckless activists in Russia to equate Ukraine’s currently open and peaceful civil society to Putin’s war on dissent.

  171. 171
    askew says:

    @Violet:

    @askew: I hope a lot of people on the Dem side run. It’s better practice for the eventual nominee to debate a variety of people. And it’s good practice and exposure for everyone else. It’s also good for Dems to see who people are, see what their options are, etc. I really hope Hilary doesn’t intimidate people from running.

    Her supporters and Clinton lackeys are doing their damn best to run the inevitable campaign again and trying to push out any possible rivals for the nomination. I think it will end up pissing off the activist base just like it did in 2008 especially in Iowa where they don’t like the Clintons at all.

  172. 172
    Kay says:

    @askew:

    That’s the Clinton model without a doubt.

    I think that of Strickland, but I don’t think it’s fair to Clinton. I really watched her campaign in this state with a critical eye (because I was on the other side) and she was good. Young women really liked her. They still like her.

    It’s such a shame she takes advice from Mark Penn because she was at her best, she hit her stride in this state, as a down to earth, practical sort of “kitchen table” Democrat. It’s really appealing to people here. THAT’S what she’s good at. I have no idea why they tried to make her into this Big Strategic Policy Thinker. She was really good when she was talking about things like wages and health care and day care and college costs.

    This is my opinion, but I think they won’t let her do that because they think those issues are “female” and unimportant. They think you’re not “serious” unless you’re threatening Iran. This is what she’s good at! Let her do it! If THEY think those issues are unimportant or “female” that’s THEIR issue, not hers, or “ours”. I think she should proudly run on “I’m a practical person who cares about the same things you do”. It was her most natural appeal.

  173. 173
    askew says:

    @geg6:

    O’Malley is interesting to me. I have a friend/colleague who once worked for him when he was mayor. He can’t say enough good things about him. I’m not sure he’ll get the nomination this time around, but I think he can go far. He needs some good media consultants and speaking coaches, though. He’ll get some, but not sure if he will soon enough.

    For some reason people keep ignoring him and he checks a lot of boxes for the nominee plus he’s been doing the candidate ramp up by going to Iowa, etc. The primary process is long enough that he’ll improve through it. He’s a better speaker than Hillary was in the beginning of 2007. O’Malley is never going to be as good as Obama, but he doesn’t need to be. Hillary isn’t even in the same league as Obama in speaking or media skills (hell even Michelle has her beat in that arena). Unless Patrick runs, the entire primary will be full of average speakers and that’s fine. There isn’t anybody on the RNC side that is an excellent speaker either.

    O’Malley’s main concern is getting top staff. He needs to get some of the Obama staffers or others who are not interested in joining the HRC campaign.

  174. 174
    Violet says:

    @askew: She didn’t have to take the SoS job and she did and people seem to think she did a good job. Eight years is a long time and it’s those larger types of things that people will remember and remember positively. That was my point. The political things you point out will not be remembered at all by most people, certainly not most voters.

    @Another Holocene Human: From your link I am guessing you’re speaking of Julian Castro? Why not his brother who has been elected to a national office? Julian won’t even throw his hat in the ring this time for Governor of Texas, even though people wanted him to until Wendy Davis did the filibuster thing. Nor is he running for Senator. Why not?

    He’s a talented guy and sure, he navigated the politics of his home city well, but that’s not at all the same thing as navigating the politics of the state or country. And when’s the last time the mayor of a city became president? Or even won the nomination of a major party? Even noun-verb-9/11 couldn’t do it and that was the mayor of our largest city. I can’t see how it would work coming from San Antonio, Texas.

  175. 175
    askew says:

    @Kay:

    I think that of Strickland, but I don’t think it’s fair to Clinton. I really watched her campaign in this state with a critical eye (because I was on the other side) and she was good. Young women really liked her. They still like her.

    You must have seen a different Hillary then. In Minnesota and Iowa, she really alienated young voters and minorities. Even those who want a female president, didn’t want her. To this day, I don’t know anyone who wants her to run in 2016.

    She’s a war hawk and pro-Wall Street which are two things young voters are very against.

    I do find it a bit sexist that Hillary never gets any blame for how poorly her campaign was run and for her policy positions. The men must have made her make those decisions, because Hillary is secretly liberal. No one would ever talk like that about a male politician. And if she can get pushed around by Mark Penn of all people, what will happen when she’s president?

  176. 176
    askew says:

    @Violet:

    @askew: She didn’t have to take the SoS job and she did and people seem to think she did a good job. Eight years is a long time and it’s those larger types of things that people will remember and remember positively. That was my point. The political things you point out will not be remembered at all by most people, certainly not most voters.

    If I was running against her, I’d make a commercial featuring her meltdowns once she started to lose the nomination – her bizarre Bosnia sniper lie, her screaming and waving a paper with Strickland in the background, her insane bunker speech after she lost the nomination and ask if this is the person we want making decisions in the Oval Office. I’ve never seen a candidate meltdown like that after losing. It was pretty appalling and disqualifying IMO.

  177. 177
    Violet says:

    @askew: People were talking up O’Malley before the 2012 Dem Convention. I made a point of watching his speech and was underwhelmed. Then there was whatever foot-in-mouth thing he did where Scheiffer asked him if people were better off than they were four years ago and he said No. I wasn’t terribly impressed. Maybe he’ll improve.

  178. 178
    Elie says:

    @Violet:

    Whoa —

    How about Deval Patrick? He gave a FANTASTIC speech at the Convention ( may be too early for another black man, but he has the goods IMHO)

    ..and Jennifer Granholm also gave a wickedly good, kick ass speech —

    too early for Julian Castro, the San Antonio mayor — but he is a comer…

    and I agree that Kirsten Gillibrand is a major up and comer but its a bit early for her IMHO

    We have a great bench — they just may not be quite ready in ’16

  179. 179
    Violet says:

    @askew:

    I do find it a bit sexist that Hillary never gets any blame for how poorly her campaign was run and for her policy positions.

    I blame her for her poorly run campaign and her policy positions. Her vote on the Iraq war has been cited a couple of times just in this thread as a reason people didn’t vote for her in 2008. And her campaign was a mess. That was all on her. She hired the crappy advisers.

  180. 180
    Betty Cracker says:

    @askew:

    I do find it a bit sexist that Hillary never gets any blame for how poorly her campaign was run and for her policy positions. The men must have made her make those decisions, because Hillary is secretly liberal. No one would ever talk like that about a male politician.

    Really? Because I’ve heard people say that male presidents (100% of presidents, thus far, of course) are crappy on this or that issue because of their advisers for years now. In fact, it was a funny throwaway line in the opening monologue of the Coen Bros.’ fantastic “Raising Arizona,” applied to Ronald Reagan.

  181. 181
    askew says:

    @Violet:

    @askew: People were talking up O’Malley before the 2012 Dem Convention. I made a point of watching his speech and was underwhelmed. Then there was whatever foot-in-mouth thing he did where Scheiffer asked him if people were better off than they were four years ago and he said No. I wasn’t terribly impressed. Maybe he’ll improve.

    An underwhelming speech and one foot in the mouth comment is disqualifying? Wow, that’s crazy. He’s done lots of Sunday show appearances and has been one of the few Dems who push back on GOP talking points. He also has one of the best records of any Dem governor in the country right now. He’s been incredibly successful at getting liberal accomplishments into place. I’ll take all of that over Hillary who has given one good speech in her life and has very little accomplishments to show for her 20+ years in public office. Also, Bill Clinton gave one of the worst speeches in DNC history before he ran for President and that didn’t make much difference to him getting elected. O’Malley will be fine.

  182. 182
    askew says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Really? Because I’ve heard people say that male presidents (100% of presidents, thus far, of course) are crappy on this or that issue because of their advisers for years now. In fact, it was a funny throwaway line in the opening monologue of the Coen Bros.’ fantastic “Raising Arizona,” applied to Ronald Reagan.

    The only time I’ve heard those excuses for male politicians is Reagan and W, because everyone knew they were incompetent or stupid. So which of these is Hillary? John Kerry, Gore, Obama, Dukakis, Mondale, McCain, Romney, Dole don’t get those excuses. Just Reagan and W.

    Raising Arizona is one of the greatest movies ever – “These doors are going to swing wide.”.

  183. 183
    Violet says:

    @Elie: That was my point. The “bench” is who is ready to step in right now. What we’ve got is the folks in the minor leagues or still playing college ball. They’ll be good…in a few years. They can’t go pro yet.

  184. 184
    Violet says:

    @askew: Are you having reading comprehension problems? I didn’t say it was “disqualifying”. I said I was underwhelmed and not impressed and maybe he’ll improve. I don’t watch Sunday shows hardly at all so I hadn’t seen him. People were talking him up so I made a point of watching for him. What I saw left me underwhelmed. It’s too early to write off anyone, but it was a big opportunity for him and he flubbed it. Bill Clinton did the same thing but he was okay.

    Someone upthread said that Maryland’s rollout of the ACA was terrible and it reflects badly on O’Malley because he was supposed to be a tech/data guy or something. That may be more of a problem for him than a speech at a convention.

  185. 185
    askew says:

    @Violet:

    And they have a few years to get ready for the nomination. Hillary and Obama weren’t ready in 2006 either. They needed the two years on the campaign trail to get ready. So did Bill Clinton, John Kerry and all other candidates. Any of the candidates will work their kinks out in Iowa and New Hampshire and be ready to go by the DNC convention.

  186. 186
    Elie says:

    @Violet:

    Yeah — I think that when I started to write my reply, mid-way through I realized that you were right…

  187. 187
    Origuy says:

    @Elie:

    ..and Jennifer Granholm also gave a wickedly good, kick ass speech –

    Problem with her: born a Canadian citizen. No American parents to give her natural-born citizenship.

  188. 188
    Kay says:

    @askew:

    Clinton has really resilient support in Ohio. As I said, I was an Obama person and she freaking crushed us in this state in the primary. All of those people will vote for her again. They were genuine supporters.

    I felt like people over-estimated her in 2008 and they’re under-estimating her now. She’s one of those people who I feel like gets too much analysis and tea-reading as to what she’s REALLY like. Now, some of that is shape-shifting, her fault, but to me it’s AS irrational to pretend she didn’t get a boat load of votes in 2008 as it was to say she was “inevitable” in 2008. They voted for her once. They’ll vote for her again. It’s not a mystery. They support her.

  189. 189
    Aimai says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: no. Its just thst people are not interested in manufacturing a candidate out of thin sir and projecting winning on to them. I dint enjoy a presidential race. We Have to win. I will vote for the yellow dog if i gave to and I have zero patience for people wailing that their fantasy date hasnt shown up.

  190. 190
    Elie says:

    @Origuy:

    Awww..

    Oh well!

  191. 191
    nospin says:

    I call BS on any statement suggesting most black women/men will automatically vote for Hillary. That is not going to happen. Hillary was the one who let the dog out of the gate and lead the charge into what is now common practice to disrespect our President. I could give a crap if President Obama and FLOTUS stumps for her. Won’t happen. She can miss me on this one.

    If the 2016 nominee does end up being a Clinton, democrats will have to accept the strong possibility of having a Republican president. Hillary is a war hawk, has lousy policies, makes lousy campaign decisions and can’t manage her own money. Not being a republican is not an a good enough reason to support her. But to be fair, I have already made up my mind to sit out 2016 if Hilary is the nominee and they can forget any monetary donations.

    Ride or Die Joe Biden is my first choice. I will go to the wall for him as he best represents my interest. Anyone else (who is not a Clinton) will have to earn my vote and I am open to listening.

    Other than that, the focus should be on the 2014 elections. Why speculate on 2016 when there is so much more work to do to help our President achieve his policy objectives right now?

  192. 192
    Aimai says:

    @Another Holocene Human: i was at the nominating convenrion for deval patrick. He gives a barn burner of a speech and hes been an ok governor but he lacks charisma. He is not loved here. And his wife is no michelle. I dont think he can run successfully.

  193. 193
    Roger Moore says:

    @Kay:

    This is my opinion, but I think they won’t let her do that because they think those issues are “female” and unimportant.

    It’s still fundamentally her fault for letting them control her campaign that way. She’s the one who’s ultimately in charge, and it’s her job to pick advisers who will take advantage of her strengths and let her run a campaign that’s about her as a candidate. If she lets her advisers give her that kind of advice as candidate Hillary, how is she going to perform as President Hillary?

  194. 194
    Elie says:

    @Aimai:

    Honey, he has to beat out some of the stiffs that the Repubs would nonminate, no? Who would he run against? Eddie Munster Ryan, Cruz the Crazie? Seriously, while he may not be Obama, I think he might be better than those two…

  195. 195
    Betty Cracker says:

    @askew: We’ll have to agree to disagree on whether or not non-RR and non-W male candidates got slammed for being led around by poor advisers (didn’t Al Gore wear a nursing bra because of Naomi Wolf or something?), but we can agree 100% on “Raising Arizona.” Funny and brilliant! “Her uterus was a barren, rocky place where my seed could find no purchase,” LMFAO!

  196. 196
    nospin says:

    @Another Holocene Human:
    “Nobody seems to want to grapple the question of how Hilary makes it through the Democratic primaries after having deeply insulted such a significant part of the Democratic Party voter base back in 2008.

    In case y’all hadn’t noticed, African American voter participation is up AND African American voters are not dropping off in off-year elections as they have in the past. It would seem to me that primaries are also fair game in this scenario. I see no sign that Hilary Clinton has any clue what a liability this is and so far she has done nothing to mend fences.”

    your point is a valid one and it is true.

  197. 197
    Rhoda says:

    I don’t like Hillary; but I’ll take her over a Republican. I’m just saying I doubt anyone who was called out by SINBAD will ever be president of the United States. As for the primary, she can be beat and the inexperience argument won’t get as much traction. White women may support her; but it’ll come down to the Hispanic and African American vote and how that divides. We don’t know; but she’s got a lot of fences to mend in the AA community and that will be important in a vicious billion dollar general election.

  198. 198
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Violet: The reason our bench looks thinner is that we haven’t had a party crisis for awhile. I mean Time Magazine has been searching for the Republican to Save the Republican Party since Obama won reelection. I think it was the cover story three times before the 2nd inagural. “The New Face”, “Can Christie be…”, “The Rubio Moment”, stuff like that.

    It is kind of strange that there hasn’t been a series of covers for the post-Obama democrats. But then we’re not on TV. We aren’t facing a demographic decline and we won the last two presidential elections. The press just isn’t interested in soul searching on behalf of our party.

  199. 199
    joel hanes says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Bubba and his closest advisers (I figure Carville) resent Democrats from not treating Bubba with the same reverence Reagan gets from Repubilcans.

    Bill Clinton’s horndogging was instrumental in pissing away the liberal opportunities of a generation.
    I’m in awe of the man’s political talents, but don’t think much of his ethics or judgement.

    If he wanted respect, or reverence, he should have kept it in his pants.

  200. 200
    Mike in NC says:

    @Suffern ACE: I feel pretty certain before this year is out Time magazine will offer up a cover story on JEB! with a caption like, “Is America Ready For Another Bush?”.

  201. 201
    the Conster says:

    If only Hillary had ever asserted herself against Bush as much as she did against Obama, I’d be all for her. She’ll fight for herself, we know that, but I don’t trust her to fight for us, at all. I’m a woman of a certain age too, and I really don’t give a shit if the next president isn’t a woman. I like Sherrod Brown or Sheldon Whitehouse. I want my senior Senator to stay where she is, being the vanguard against the banksters in the Senate. What about Breshears? O’Malley interests me, and I love Deval, but that’s not going to happen.

  202. 202
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    I will vote, in the primary, for whichever candidate seems to have the best blend of decent policies, character, and chance of winning in the general. If it ends up being Clinton, Castro, O’Malley, or a candidate to be named later, so be it.

  203. 203
    different-church-lady says:

    @Elie: Patrick’s already said he’s not interested.

  204. 204
    the Conster says:

    @the Conster:

    Plus, how great would it be to have a President Whitehouse?

  205. 205
    Betty Cracker says:

    @the Conster: I like Whitehouse (and reading “the Whitehouse White House would be BEYOND awesome!) and Brown very much. I could enthusiastically get behind either of those candidates.

  206. 206
    Kay says:

    @Roger Moore:

    I have trouble with “great campaigns make great presidents” for one reason and one reason only.

    George W Bush.

    The Bush 2004 campaign in Ohio was great. It’s why I always got scared when people said Obama ran a great primary campaign in 2008, and so he would be a great President.

    I don’t know that it means as much as people think it does. You have to somehow explain Bush to me if it does :)

    I do agree that it’s her job to run as herself, though. She has to do and be her own thing. It’s a character flaw if she can’t. For one thing, I don’t think inauthentic candidates win, so she literally CANNOT run as someone or something she isn’t.

  207. 207
    David Koch says:

    Pretty amazing, Obama has been president for five full years, and his administration has been scandal free.

    That’s hard. A President can govern his own personal conduct and stay out of scandal, but there’s always someone next to the President who fucks up. For example, a honest, decent man like Jimmy Carter still ended up with Bert Lance and Billy Carter working as a lobbyist for Libya.

  208. 208
    Renie says:

    I live in NY and there’s been a lot of press about how Cuomo can work both sides of the aisle. I think he is starting to get ready to make a move. Personally I don’t like him and would not vote for him.

  209. 209
    Elie says:

    @different-church-lady:

    OK —

    I’m not particularly tooting his horn but was more responding to aimai’s observation that he lacked charisma. I don’t know him that well and that might be true but I just had to make a crack about who he might be running against on the other side.

    And I will also say, this is not a goal for the faint hearted. You have to want this real real bad because it is nothing but the labors of Hercules to win the presidency — so you had better burn with wanting it. I am totally cool if he does not cause I want whoever we pick to want it real bad. I am also cool with Hillary if she can keep either her husband or herself from shooting her in the foot.

  210. 210
    rikyrah says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Enjoyed all your comments, and would only say AMEN to them.

  211. 211
    David Koch says:

    Atrios is a loon.

    The other day he was criticizing the US because it didn’t track the flight pattern of the missing Malaysian plane.

    Of course if the US was tracking the flight, he would be the first one screaming why is the US spying on foreign commercial flights.

  212. 212
    Elie says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    I hear that except the prospect of having one of those crazy repubs puts Hillary in a better light, doncha think? Yeah, she has to do some work, but I can’t see black folks (and I am one too), sitting out voting for her when they would have to have uh, Paul Ryan or Ted Cruz or the other crazy , Ron Paul — each one a dyed in the wool racist whacko. Or Jeb Bush? Really? (I think on second thought that Jeb might could give Hillary a rough time)

  213. 213
    different-church-lady says:

    @geg6:

    I WILL ONLY SETTLE FOR THE UNICORN THAT POOPS MILK CHOCOLATE, NOT DARK CHOCOLATE DISMANTLES CAPITALISM, DEFUNDS THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT AND THROWS BANKSTERS IN JAIL BY EXECUTIVE ORDER!

    Let’s just stop with the euphemisms, shall we?

  214. 214
    rikyrah says:

    For those who don’t think that it would matter much if Hillary had won in 2008, I beg to differ.
    1. We NEVER would have gotten the ACA with Hillary. NEVER.
    2. The Consumer Protection Agency that brought us Senator Warren and Head Cordray – never would have happened, because that would bring it back to the point that a great deal of the financial crisis originated with the ending of Glass-Stengal, which happened under Bill Clinton.
    3. We’d still be in Iraq – she STILL never apologized for her vote for Iraq. She has NEVER admitted that it was wrong.
    4. We’d be knee deep in Afghanistan
    5. Bin Laden would still be alive – you honestly think she’d have the guts to make the call to take him out, let alone have put the CIA on the hunt for him?
    6. She wanted into Libya
    7. And you know we’d be knee deep in Syria.
    So, hell yeah, it matters who is President.

  215. 215
    rikyrah says:

    @Svensker:

    Her instincts are all wrong. and she likes war way too much.

    yep
    yep
    yep

  216. 216
    jamick says:

    honestly who cares if the campaign leaks or if there’s behind the scenes drama, this stuff is just catnip for the village/political junkie types. i think we can agree the bigger problems w/ her are hawkishness and pro wall street -ness

  217. 217
    Elie says:

    @jamick:

    Ahhh — but the leaks and melodrama can be very distracting and tiring for the candidate if he/she is spending too much time defending or fixing or cleaning up. The big dog LOVES him some melodrama unfortunately…not sure that she doesn’t also. Again, if you can deal with it and get the important messaging out, well its good. I have never seen the Clintons completely do that since leaving his tenure in office.

    Do you think that secretly the big dog doesn’t really want her to be President even though he says he does? Maybe he is ambivalent?

  218. 218
    David Koch says:

    @joel hanes:

    I’m in awe of the man’s political talents

    I think this is vastly overblown and in many ways flat out wrong.

    If he was so politically talented, why did he hire losers like Dick Morris and Mark Penn?

    If he was so politically talented, how did he fail so miserably on DADT, DOMA, Healthcare, and supporting the Iraq invasion?

  219. 219
    Roger Moore says:

    @Kay:
    I don’t know if I believe that a great campaign shows somebody can be a great President, but I suspect that running a lousy campaign is a real strike against you. The way I see it, there are lost of ways you can be bad as President, not all of which will show up as being bad on the campaign trail. You can run an excellent campaign and still be an evil person trying to implement terrible policies. But running a disorganized campaign in which the candidate lets herself be bossed around by her incompetent advisers shows real weaknesses that are likely to continue into a subsequent administration.

  220. 220
    WaterGirl says:

    @Svensker:

    Her instincts are all wrong. and she likes war way too much. I’ll vote for her over any Republican, but I’m not gonna be happy about it.

    Could not agree more!

  221. 221
    WaterGirl says:

    @rikyrah: You are so right.

  222. 222
    Keith G says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    There’s a pro-Hilary PAC running around organizing right now as if there aren’t super critical elections coming up. You really think Clinton and her people are completely innocent of that?

    Where are Obama’s people? A: in Texas, trying to increase voter participation in the border counties.

    Is your goal improving the lives of ordinary Americans, or grifting? Some have already chosen.

    And if HRC wants to be the president, it’s a damn good good thing her people are out shaking the trees.

    Until Citizens United is somehow mitigated, it’s gonna be all about a Dem candidate’s ability to raise Mo Money, Mo money, Mo money! The Clinton’s can do this better than other Democrats, but there will a shit ton raised by dozens of sources on the other side. Starting now may seem grifty to you, it seems like sober, grownup wisdom to me – even if I hate the reality that demands it.

  223. 223
    Keith G says:

    @rikyrah:

    For those who don’t think that it would matter much if Hillary had won in 2008, I beg to differ

    You are to talking to?

  224. 224

    @Aimai: So if you are not sold on Hillary based on her record so far, its like waiting for a fantasy date. Thanks for clearing that up.

  225. 225
    ralphb says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Jeremy Bird, founder of Battleground Texas, is actually working for Ready for Hillary now along with some other Obama campaign people. They are not running a campaign or raising money now because of the 2014 elections.

    You should check a fact now and again. You’ve spread more fertilizer here than a horse can shit in a month.

  226. 226
    Kay says:

    @Roger Moore:

    I don’t know if I believe that a great campaign shows somebody can be a great President, but I suspect that running a lousy campaign is a real strike against you.

    I’ll give you that. It makes sense.

    I have a Hillary campaign story. It was the Ohio primary and the Obama people were here organizing and I was an Obama delegate so they contacted me early and I went to a meeting or two. I love primaries, and I knew this was shaping up to be just epic, so it was a lot of fun being the underdog.
    I get a call on my home phone and the person on the other end identifies himself as a Clinton organizer and just starts TALKING. Just a barrage of words. I generally don’t interrupt so I’m really just waiting for him to come up for air so I can tell him I’m not supporting Clinton, but it goes on and on, dates, duties, lists he needs, what “we” will be doing. He just assumed I was for Clinton. It was amusing.
    That, in a nutshell, was what was wrong with that campaign. They’re in Ohio, on the ground, and they don’t even know the delegate names or who they’re supporting. I mean, this would be crucial info for them, that count.

  227. 227
    Cervantes says:

    @ralphb:

    Jeremy Bird, founder of Battleground Texas, is actually working for Ready for Hillary now along with some other Obama campaign people.

    That was pointed out before, in vain.

  228. 228
    Cervantes says:

    @Kay: Incompetence is a drag.

  229. 229
    Kay says:

    @Cervantes:

    It was doubly amazing because her delegate spots were hotly contested in this area. You know it goes by congressional district in this state and my congressional district was not exactly a hot bed of Obama supporters.

    Everyone wanted to be a Clinton delegate, because the whole Ohio Dem apparatus was supporting her and the assumption was she’d be the nominee, so Clinton supporters were vying for spots. All the intensity at the delegate caucus was with her. The Obama people were the long shot. No one paid us any attention.

  230. 230
    Kay says:

    So I talked to this man today and he’s not paying his creditors. Because he doesn’t have any money, but still, very few people affirmatively say, happily, “oh, I’m not paying them!”

    “On the grounds that paying them only encourages them”

    Isn’t that the best thing you ever heard? Delivered with a big grin :)

    Someone else is going to have to be stern and serious with him. I think it’s delightfully light-hearted, his attitude.

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