Other Views on the Situation in Ukraine

Julia Ioffe, Russian emigre, on the ground for TNR, yesterday:

Things moved fast today—Yanukovich denying his resignation; the security forces switching sides; the parliament ousting him and setting new elections; his political allies, and perhaps Yanukovich himself, fleeing the country; members of his party in parliament fleeing the party; his jailed political rival Yulia Tymoshenko being popped out of a prison hospital and boarding a plane for Kiev—but it all moved peacefully, joyously, and seemingly in the right direction. This was no longer a referendum on the EU or Russia, who stood helplessly by as Ukrainians finally determined their own fate without them; this was not about the east or west of the country. Today was about getting rid of a man who had stolen a lot of their money and killed a lot of their countrymen.

There will, inevitably, be a hangover. I won’t try to predict what’s going to happen in Ukraine in the coming weeks and months, but here are some of the moving pieces to watch.
East and West…
The Crimea…
The nationalists

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203 replies
  1. 1
    efgoldman says:

    I don’t even pretend to know what might happen, but the violence stopped, at least.
    Maybe this will turn out like the (peaceful) Czech/Slovak split, rather than the horror that rained on the former Yugoslavia.
    We can hope, right?
    (It was never clear whether my grandmother, ca. 1910, emigrated from a shtetl outside Kiev or outside Minsk.)

  2. 2
    aimai says:

    Some of my family are from near Vinnitsa, scene of an enormous massacre, I believe.

  3. 3
    MattF says:

    And, btw, the article suggests that the rabbi who is warning Ukrainian Jews to leave town is a Kremlin ally. So, I think that getting worked up about things that someone, somewhere is worried about is the wrong approach. I’ll allow that I don’t have positive feelings towards the Cossack ‘hundreds’ who are providing local law and order in Kiev. But the situation is already much better than it was yesterday. And I suspect that’s about as good as it’s going to get for the next few days.

  4. 4
    Warren Terra says:

    The postscript to that Ha’aretz story Corey Robin links seems important (bolding mine):

    Correction (Feb. 22, 4:20 P.M.): An earlier version of this report incorrectly described Rabbi Azman as the chief rabbi of Ukraine. Azman is not the country’s chief rabbi, but one of two rabbis challenging the official chief rabbi, Yaakov Bleich, in Kiev, and like most Chabad rabbis, is aligned with the Kremlin.

    Doesn’t mean he’s wrong – part of the opposition is right-wing ultranationalists who have a history of antisemitism and for that matter have historical ties with the freaking Nazis – but he’s quite an impeachable source, and he’s hardly acting against interest here.

  5. 5
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @aimai: Yes, the site of a mass execution of hundreds of ethnic Ukrainians by Stalin’s NKVD during the Great Purge. Evidence, I suppose, that they were all anti-Semites.

  6. 6
    raven says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Who all?

  7. 7
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @raven: Read a couple of threads down (this is, oddly, the third thread on Ukraine today.) Apparently all Ukrainians are anti-Semitic.

  8. 8
    raven says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Do I have to?

  9. 9
    Tokyokie says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Including its Jews.

  10. 10
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @raven: Nah. I already gave you the executive summary.

  11. 11
    aimai says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Yes, but I didn’t participate and would never have said that.

  12. 12
  13. 13
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @aimai: I know that and didn’t say you did, so I apologize if reference was inferred. That other thread got pretty tiresome, and my dig here was at it, not you. I was trying to provide history about Vinnytsia.

  14. 14
    aimai says:

    @Gin & Tonic: The Vinnitsa massacre I was thinking of was this one. But you are never wrong about any massacre in Ukraine or, indeed, in Russia itself. There’s always more than one to be talked about.

  15. 15
    Corner Stone says:

    @raven: You tired old Vietnam vets. Always expecting life to give you executive summaries on a platter. Instead of having to work for it you lazy old hippie!

  16. 16
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Current politics in Ukraine seems to be pretty weird — accusations of one’s opponent being a Jew fly pretty freely back and forth, and the election in 2010 seems to have been won in part through accusations that then-Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko was Jewish. So it’s pretty hard to say that one side is more anti-Semitic than the other because, frankly, it looks like both are.

    ETA: Note that I’m talking about recent politics and current events in Ukraine, not the personal beliefs of individual Ukranians. Anti-Semitic tropes seem to work in Ukraine the way racist tropes seem to work here in the US, so I’m not getting on my high horse about how much better our politics or voters are.

  17. 17
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @aimai: Thanks for that reference. Indeed, there is plenty of death to go around.

  18. 18
    raven says:

    @Corner Stone: Tired is right. The boss had me moving boxwoods in giant pots, huge rocks and shoveling tons of wood chips for pathways! BTW, where IS T&H and why did it bother with that even stupider handle?

  19. 19
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Well, the events in Ukraine are kinda the big news story, right now.

    And I don’t pretend to understand the Ukraine situation, but I know enough about American neocon politics to know that whenever “Jewish sources” are quoted over here, the usual American suspects are about to start screaming for “us” to intervene, i.e., bomb somebody.

  20. 20
    beltane says:

    @Anne Laurie: That rule only applies with regards to the Middle East and perceived threats to Israel. Ukraine does not figure into this equation.

  21. 21
    Corner Stone says:

    @beltane: I thought the rule was that if we have the chance to bomb someone, then no subject or lever was off limits for influence.

  22. 22
    beltane says:

    @aimai: Even at that link you provided many of the comments are appalling.

  23. 23
    ulee says:

    I understand why the kleptocrats here in the US are sweating. The Ukranian people are walking around the presidential grounds and saying–this is ridiculous, nobody needs this much.

  24. 24
    Anne Laurie says:


    Anti-Semitic tropes seem to work in Ukraine the way racist tropes seem to work here in the US, so I’m not getting on my high horse about how much better our politics or voters are.

    I get the same impression. Problem for Americans is, “our” interventionist-foreign-policy experts use the neocon “Israel the 51st state” media-istas as their cheerleading squad — not always in the best interests of the countries “we” are being told we should attack. So that’s one extra layer of BS to obscure the reality on the ground…

  25. 25
    Tommy says:

    At times like this I wonder how well our State Department is working. It seems like we see a revolt somewhere and we kind of cheer those conducting said revolt. Then the folks take power and maybe they were not the “good guys.”

  26. 26
    beltane says:

    @Corner Stone: I’ve never in my lifetime seen an instance where our conservatives clamored for the US to bomb white people living under a RW government. If I can recall correctly, most Republicans accused Bill Clinton of bombing Serbia to deflect criticism over his personal life.

  27. 27
    Mike in NC says:

    @ulee: I wonder how many Ukrainians – whatever side they’re on – are aware of how many homes the neocon warmonger John McCain owns?

  28. 28
    Liquid says:

    Over/Under when someone starts calling Obama “Neville Chamberlain” for real?

  29. 29
    OGLiberal says:

    @Anne Laurie: Jews or no Jews, a confrontation with Russia would be like the return of 1983 for the neo-cons so whoever Putin is for, they’re against. But this puts the wingers in a bit of a twist. They’ve got a huge crush on Vlad these days because he’s a bad ass, goes shirtless, and – most important – hates on gays and thumbs his nose at Obama. But the chance to bring the old gang back like it was Dutch’s first term may prove too hard to resist.

    Case and point – here’s Bill Kristol waxing nostalgic about the Cold War (and, of course, implying that Obama is a pussy…because Bill’s such a hard ass mutha fucka):


    As noted in a previous thread, I’m a bit concerned that the State Department’s top regional person on this is a GWB holdover and the wife of Robert Kagan.

  30. 30
    beltane says:

    @Mike in NC: Or the details of Mitt Romney’s car elevator. 47% of American voters wanted to put a kleptocrat in office.

  31. 31
    WaterGirl says:

    @Corner Stone: @raven: Cornerstone, that was very funny.

    That was some ugly disgusting stuff that was vomited up this morning. Raven, you think that was T&H? I haven’t read anything of his for months, so I didn’t recognize that as his style. No wonder I don’t read the stuff it writes!

    Edit: the new nym from this morning was banned by DougJ, at the request of different church lady.

  32. 32
    Tommy says:

    This is just my two cents. Russia is going in. Mark my words. And I don’t know what we can do. I mean I can hear then saying we attacked Iraq, thousands of miles away. Russia shares a border. Russian citizens. I don’t see this ending well.

  33. 33
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl: My morning posts were all garden related so how did someone just pop in and know my background?

  34. 34
    debbie says:


    I believe that’s already happened with Syria, no?

  35. 35
    raven says:

    I hate to say this but Ukraine is the kind of issue where Pat Lang and his regular posters have a great deal to offer.

  36. 36
    ulee says:

    That open sore of a human being needs to learn lessons from a Jack Russell Terrorist. You want to push buttons, do it with dignity, wealth and stealth of character, and be likable. That guy was just ugly and mean and I am sure glad I don’t work with him.

  37. 37
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: I figured someone who is usually a lurker?

    Edit: if you’d actually posted a link to that site, I would have had to stop and check to see if hell had frozen over.

  38. 38

    Gin & Tonic wanted me to prove that the national hero of Ukraine and one of the leaders of this revolution, Roman Shukhevych, killed a million Jews. I’m not sure that it’s documented that Hitler ever laid a hand on a Jew, but he gets the credit for the Holocaust. I don’t think Gin & Tonic should deny the great things that Uncle Roman did in WWII.


  39. 39
    WaterGirl says:

    @ulee: Yeah, someone posted a link this morning to an article that said research has shown that trolls tend to be sadistic people, and also people who are sociopaths. Not nice people. What a surprise!

    Edit: glad to have seen you posting again lately. Seems like you are in a better place. Are you ever in touch with the BJ commenter who seemed to be in touch with you in real life?

  40. 40
    gogol's wife says:


    Yeah, that’s what convinced me it was him.

  41. 41
    Corner Stone says:

    @WaterGirl: I doubt that was him. To this point he has never shied from comments he’s made.
    That handle has attacked Cole, Betty and DougJ within 2 or so days.

  42. 42
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @raven: was it T&H? The style didn’t seem quite the same. I guess we’ll find out soon enough — DougJ banhammered the one who was giving you shit this morning (and giving a thousand times more offensive shit to Betty last night).

  43. 43
    Warren Terra says:


    @Corner Stone: I’ve never in my lifetime seen an instance where our conservatives clamored for the US to bomb white people living under a RW government. If I can recall correctly, most Republicans accused Bill Clinton of bombing Serbia to deflect criticism over his personal life.

    You were born in 1998?

    For years before the Kosovo War the right wing complained that Clinton was too pusillanimous regarding the unpleasantness in Bosnia, and he ought to be shipping weapons to the Bosnian forces and bombing the Serbs. As with many of the wingers’ positions, these were insincere: once Clinton adopted a policy more similar to their previous prescription, the wingers split between denouncing him for not doing enough (McCain, principally, but also others) and denouncing him for doing anything at all.

    And note that your criteria are rather too retrictrive: because of the cold war and the accomplishments of the EU, the former Yugoslavia is about the only place that could qualify, it has the only right-wing governments of a European-ethnic nation any remotely serious American politician could conceivably have wanted bombed in the last fifty years. There have been other right-wing states that qualified, and there was the whole of what Ronnie Reagan termed “the evil empire”, but that was nominally left-wing. So, in fact, that wingers did call for its bombing when it was the only candidate to fit your terms is rather an accomplishment.

  44. 44
    gogol's wife says:


    T&H has a thing about veterans.

  45. 45

    @Tokyokie: Well, Okie, if you read the links you’d see that the two Jews that Gin & Tonic claimed were Jews had actually been accused of being Jews by farther-right Jew-haters. Considering that one of them was accused of introducing anti-Semitism to an earlier political campaign, I think Gin & Tonic may want to do a little more research on websites that don’t have swastikas on their mastheads.

  46. 46
    JoyfulA says:

    @Tommy: Our State Department expert in Ukraine, I’ve read, is a Bush regime leftover married to a neocon.

  47. 47
    Chris says:


    I’ve never in my lifetime seen an instance where our conservatives clamored for the US to bomb white people living under a RW government. If I can recall correctly, most Republicans accused Bill Clinton of bombing Serbia to deflect criticism over his personal life.

    There’s a very, very nasty extension of this argument I’ve seen crop up in the right wing blogosphere from time to time, to the effect that since Milosevic, Karadjic and all these dudes were ethnically cleansing fighting Muslims, we were on the wrong side, and Clinton should’ve supported them as a bulwark against Islamo-fascism.

    If they’re dedicated enough, they’ll go on to argue that since Muslims did bad things in the previous history of the Balkans (though the latest reference I’ve seen them give is from World War Two), Milosevic & co were actually the victims and just fighting back against aggression.

    If they’re paranoid enough, they’ll go on to argue that this proves Clinton was an agent of the International Islamo-fascist Conspiracy and that the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo were supposed to weaken the West and its friends.

    Putin isn’t the first ex-communist thug that they’ve forgiven, excused and praised because he was committing crimes against a particular demographic and because they saw him as sticking it to the right President of the United States.

  48. 48
  49. 49
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    But your response to the troll was wonderful, straight out of the “Please continue, Governor” playbook.

  50. 50
    ulee says:

    @WaterGirl: I haven’t had contact with anyone here in real life. I’m getting clear. I am coming off of clonazepam withdrawal (no doctor help, I know that’s bad) hallucinations, depersonalization, panic attacks, anxiety, sometimes not a nice person. Benzos are helpful but bad bad bad when you want to get off of them.

  51. 51
    Corner Stone says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    Well, Okie, if you read the links you’d see that the two Jews that Gin & Tonic

    Hold on, I think I’m getting into a rhythm.

    “Rollin down the street, smokin tokin, sippin on gin and juice
    Laid back (with my mind on my money and my money on my mind)”

  52. 52

    @Warren Terra: If we want to go back to Yugoslavia, folks, do a little research and see what Alija Izetbegović and Tudjman were doing during WWII.

  53. 53

    Let’s make a list: Gin & Tonic, Corner Stone. Who else is arm in arm with the Ukrainian revolutionaries?

  54. 54
    OGLiberal says:

    @JoyfulA: Yup. Victoria Nuland, wife of Robert Kagan – co-founder of PNAC, along with Bill Kristol. FWIW, she’s a career Stater, started with Clinton and has hung on since. Still, married to a Kagan?

    Note that she has been the target of some BENGHAZI!!!! flak but then the baggers have never claimed to be fans of the neo-cons….you know, because a lot of them are, well…you know….

  55. 55
    beltane says:

    @Bob In Portland: They were the worst of the worst. I recall reading about young German peacekeepers horrified by the Nazi salutes given to them by elderly Croats. In relative terms, the Serbs were the “good guys” back then.

  56. 56
    Suffern ACE says:

    Of course since the outgoinig party bought PR firms and bloggers, I have no idea what caused recent events in Ukraine, which side I would prefer winning, and wondering if the fact that I am ambivalent is exactly what that PR spend was designed to produce.

  57. 57
    WaterGirl says:

    @Corner Stone: Raven can handle himself, and I didn’t see how Cole and DougJ were attacked. But what he said to Betty was beyond evil, and even though I like to think that nothing is unforgivable, I thought that was unforgivable.

  58. 58

    @beltane: Please, beltane, you’re gonna harsh the buzz of Gin & Tonic and Corner Stone.

  59. 59
    WaterGirl says:

    @ulee: Yikes. Keep hanging in, hopefully you are almost there.

  60. 60
    James E. Powell says:

    I’m not sure it’s possible to understand Ukraine, but I am sure it’s not possible without a lot of background reading on group of people that spoke a language that lived in a region that became a nation for like ten minutes then was turned into an SSR that was definitely treated like a colony (Cf. Ireland under British rule) then became a nation again. Its people have several ethnic identities, often in the same family. You can read all the history, but it’s not going to help with anything but the vocabulary. Almost nothing that goes on there has anything to do with the United States.

    Has there ever been a nationalist movement that didn’t end up producing a pile of corpses?

  61. 61

    @MattF: Part of that Russian-Jewish Mafia the revolutionaries are talking about?

  62. 62
    ulee says:

    @WaterGirl: Thanks. I passed my medical administration course without shaking. I could write and transcribe so I can keep my job. I know John has anxiety and panic attacks. I would tell him, benzos are helpful but be careful if you go that way. They will mess with your perceptions and they are addictive.

  63. 63
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Warren Terra: I just read the Wikipedia article on Bandera and while he doesn’t sound like a very wonderful person — in fact, the article states he is very polarizing and viewed negatively inside Ukraine — his ties to Nazis were clearly opportunistic on both sides. At one time the Nazis imprison him and send him to KZ but then when things go badly they let him out again hoping to push back against the USSR again. The Nazis’ own documents show they felt the Ukrainians were not committed to the Final Solution, even providing Jews with false papers and such to protect them, so it is not a Baltic kind of situation here. But his group did kill thousands of Poles in an ethnic cleansing during WWII, which is quite reprehensible. No wonder he’s not so popular even in Western Ukraine given the cultural ties between Western Ukrainians and Poles today.

    He seems to be a symbol of defiance to Russian interests, hence the pimping of his image by Ukrainian right-nationalists and the knee-jerk reaction by pro-Russian revanchists. The KGB after all murdered Bandero in the late 1950s to ensure that they and not he would have the final word on his wartime legacy.

    It’s not as if the US left and right don’t have extremely tainted heroes they like to lionize, including more than the fair share of open anti-Semites. Bandero was the Andrew Jackson of anti-Semites, taking either side opportunistically. How many Jackson Squares are there in the United States?

    I’m tired of seeing other countries judged on some sort of special scale that never, ever applies to the US.

  64. 64
    Mnemosyne says:

    @James E. Powell:

    Has there ever been a nationalist movement that didn’t end up producing a pile of corpses?

    As far as I know … nope. Though Bob in Portland seems very, very invested in interpreting every action of the Ukranian nationalists in WWII as anti-Semitic even when, as in beltane’s link above, they massacred gentile Poles.

    As far as I can tell, the Ukranian nationalists pre- and post-WWII were willing to kill anyone who didn’t fit their “pure” nationality whether they were gentile Poles or Ukranian Jews. They were happy to collaborate with anyone who would let them carry out their massacres, including the Nazis. Which makes them enormous terroristic assholes but not specifically anti-Semites.

  65. 65

    @beltane: I’ve made references elsewhere about Gehlen’s Org and its importance at the founding of the CIA.

    Essentially, all our anti-Communism in Europe for the last fifty years was a means to reinstate Third Reich collaborators and their cronies to power. I’m not a fan of the old Soviet Union, or Putin’s current regime, but surely there must be someone to support there that didn’t take pride in killing Jews during the war.

  66. 66
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Mnemosyne: Oh, Bob’s on a frigging tear today. He won’t even mention my nym, that’s how little he wants to explain why it’s so important to him to carry water for ChaBaD.

  67. 67

    @Mnemosyne: @Mnemosyne: Okay, which Ukrainian opposition leadership figure isn’t an anti-Semite?

    And killing Polish gentiles does not give you a pass for killing Jews.

  68. 68

    Joe Nocera made a good point: Ukraine has really strict gun laws, and yet the people just overthrew their government. So, death of another NRA talking point.

  69. 69
    WaterGirl says:

    @ulee: Getting to keep your job, that’s huge. I know it’s been a long haul, but from here it sure looks like you are going in the right direction.

  70. 70
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    To be fair (sort of), there seems to have been a lot of re-thinking of Jackson’s legacy and he keeps going further down on the lists of “great American presidents.” A lot of that, I think, is due to the hard work of Native American rights organizations since the 1970s and their drawing attention to Jackson’s crimes against them.

  71. 71

    @James E. Powell:

    Has there ever been a nationalist movement that didn’t end up producing a pile of corpses?

    Now you’re in my field, and, No.

    Ethnic nationalism in Europe alone has killed more Europeans than infectious diseases.

  72. 72
    Another Holocene Human says:

    Oh, lord, now it’s about keeping the flame of Marxist-Leninism alive. Jayzus.

    Just because the CIA is the corrupt, murderous, vicious and avaricious arm of the Anglo-American power elite doesn’t mean that by necessity all of their sworn enemies were right.

  73. 73
    beltane says:


    Ethnic nationalism in Europe alone has killed more Europeans than infectious diseases

    It is a plague just like all other plagues.

  74. 74
    Corner Stone says:

    @Bob In Portland: I honestly don’t know what you mean. Snoop Dogg is a member of the Ukrainian revolutionaries?

  75. 75
    srv says:

    @raven: Pat Lang is a surrender monkey who is afraid of Putin. He asked this week how much Obama was going to bow and grovel to his master King Abdullah next month.

  76. 76
    beltane says:

    @Southern Beale: It is the willingness to be shot at, rather than an eagerness to shoot others, that determines whether or not a government can be overthrown.

  77. 77
    raven says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Well, I’m sure there are people here who get tired of it as well. There are nam vets here who rarely, if ever, mention it at all. I certainly didn’t intend to give whoever it was any more ammo.

  78. 78

    @Another Holocene Human: I don’t know who or what ChaBaD is.

    You’ll have to excuse me. I hate to see my country supporting Nazi collaborators and their worshippers who celebrate national heroes who exterminated Jews for Greater Germany. Just a little quirk I have. I’ve acknowledged that this time around there aren’t a million Jews to kill, only 70,000 in Ukraine. So the wonderful freedom fighters will have to find someone else to blame when their EU credits come due and they end up like Greece. Maybe Putin the Jew. Maybe the American Jews. Or real Jews in Israel, although fascists seem to have a grudging respect for other fascist movements abroad.

  79. 79
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    Okay, which Ukrainian opposition leadership figure isn’t an anti-Semite?

    Which Ukranian government current leadership figure isn’t an anti-Semite?

    That’s what I’m trying to get across to you — when it comes to Ukraine’s government, it’s anti-Semites all the way down. There is no one on either side you can point to as being not an anti-Semite.

    And killing Polish gentiles does not give you a pass for killing Jews.

    Wait, so if they’d only killed Polish gentiles, they would be entitled to a pass, because at least they hadn’t killed Jews?

    And it’s not a matter of a “pass.” It’s pointing out that they were primarily nationalistic murderous assholes who were willing to kill anyone who was standing in the way of their “pure” Ukraine, whether they were gentile Poles or Ukranian Jews. It’s not giving them a “pass” to point out that they were not primarily anti-Semites. They were willing to murder anyone in their way regardless of religion.

  80. 80
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Mnemosyne: He kind of sucked at other aspects of presidentin’ too, when you scrape back the populist hurr hurr rhetoric.

    But there are some Jackson apologists aplenty out there. Just last week I saw someone holding forth online about how Jackson did the right thing force-marching the Civilized Tribes out of Georgia when he did, that the alternative would have been worse. Um, tha fuck?

    Also gotta love that style of American history where what’s good for anglo-American power elites is the interest of “America” and what threatens their ability to steal all the things is an existential threat to “America”.

    But maybe I should shut up, as my ancestors were bought out and over by said elites via the Homestead act.

    All white Americans are collaborators and beneficiaries of slavery and genocide and legal and structural racism. It’s a joke to pretend otherwise.

  81. 81
    Corner Stone says:

    @WaterGirl: Eh, don’t remember the where the Cole attacks were, but the handle called DougJ a very not nice term that kept the WaPo level of intelligence down.
    That comment link is offensive, btw.

  82. 82
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: If you don’t know what Chabad is then maybe you shouldn’t be repeating their propaganda uncritically.

  83. 83

    Re @Bob In Portland:

    Please note that many American Jews think that Chabad is a bunch of nutballs. They’re not the Westboro Baptist Church of Jews, quite, but they may be the Saddlebacks. Chabad seems to be heavily populated by Russian Jews, at least where my family lives. Extremist.

    Point being, If the Chabad Rabbi in Kiev says it’s raining locusts, look outside.

  84. 84
    Mnemosyne says:

    So who wants to break Bob in Portland’s heart by pointing out that the Soviets collaborated with the Nazis, too, at least until the scorpion decided to sting them?

  85. 85
    ulee says:

    New Walking Dead is on tonight. Not Rubio, Walker, or Christie. The other one.

  86. 86

    @Another Holocene Human:

    So it’s WWII all over again. You down with a “Cordon Sanitaire”?

  87. 87
    Anoniminous says:

    @James E. Powell:

    I can think of two: nationalist “uprising” of Norwegians against Sweden in 1905 and the Icelandic nationalist movement against Denmark in 1944.

  88. 88
    Another Holocene Human says:

    This is great logic by Bob from Portland. I’m going to assume he cheered on the GOP POTUS and Congress who denounced France and called it “Old Europe” because during WWII France was ruled by Nazi collaborators who assisted the Gestapo in transporting thousands of Jews out of the country to be sent to Nazi death camps.

  89. 89
    srv says:

    @Mnemosyne: They are all just too eager to goose-step to Merkel’s EU.

    Stirring the pot in Ukraine is just a means to slap Putin around for not knowing his place. Of course, when the Russians roll into Kiev in a few weeks, things might not be so pretty. But, you know, Straussian creative destruction. This war is just getting started.

    One of the wingnuts at Lang’s site was wondering what liberals would think if Putin started supplying the south with arms. He seemed excited about it. I was thinking what a great opportunity this might be to finish Sherman’s work.

  90. 90
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:


    He asked this week how much Obama was going to bow and grovel to his master King Abdullah next month.

    As long as he doesn’t kiss him on the mouth.

  91. 91
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @beltane: Indeed. That is why I think that Tree of Liberty quote got it almost exactly wrong. It’s not the blood of tyrants but the blood of ordinary people who willingly put themselves in harm’s way for a cause that is bigger than themselves. It’s Martin Luther King’s blood, John Lewis’ blood, even Crispus Attucks’ blood, not the blood of Tories or traitors.

  92. 92

    @Anoniminous: Most students of the problem wouldn’t include political violence among descendants of VIkings as examples of nationalism, any more than other post-colonial revolutions. I think of those two uprisings as intramural.

    Which matters only because that MAY be what’s going on in Ukraine.

    But the hell if I know, I don’t even read much Russian news.

  93. 93

    @Mnemosyne: You seem to think that I am a defender of Stalinist Communism. Next you’ll accuse me of wanting socialized medicine. Well, single-payer.

    The US admits to spending five billion dollars to destabilize Ukraine. I realize it’s a pittance compared to how much we’ve been spending destabilizing the Middle East, but still, how many armbands does five billion pay for?

  94. 94
    beltane says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’d also wager that the vast majority of Allied leaders and generals were anti-semites themselves. WWII wasn’t a simple good guys/bad guys story. It was more a matter of the bad guys vs. the unspeakably awful guys.

  95. 95

    @Another Holocene Human: My God, how long are your arms? That was quite a reach. The GOP backed the Nazis leading up to WWII.

    I’m sure your hindsight will be clearer after the smoke clears.

  96. 96
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @PhoenixRising: Truer words about Saddleback as they are quite the recruiters and seem to have adapted a lot of American Evangelical tactics in their quest to be the “cool, approachable” Judaism (just, don’t ask them about Schneersohn).

    They target young, naive often secularized Jews with little connection to traditional Jewish practice, gambling that they will not be turned off or sophisticated enough to realize how heretical ChaBaD is. They love young people who are away from home (and thus, their parents).

  97. 97
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: Ah, so hating on Nazi collaborators is only for former Soviet Bloc countries?

    Got it.

  98. 98
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: What leads you to believe that Ukraine has been destabilized?

  99. 99
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    Just trying to understand why the same US pols who are condemning the crackdown on protesters in the Ukraine have remained silent about the crackdown on protesters in Israel.

  100. 100
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    You seem to think that I am a defender of Stalinist Communism.

    Gosh, what could have given me that idea?

    Essentially, all our anti-Communism in Europe for the last fifty years was a means to reinstate Third Reich collaborators and their cronies to power. I’m not a fan of the old Soviet Union, or Putin’s current regime, but surely there must be someone to support there that didn’t take pride in killing Jews during the war.


    The US admits to spending five billion dollars to destabilize Ukraine.

    Link needed.

  101. 101
    mike in dc says:

    I can’t imagine a lot of enthusiasm in the Russian military to intervene. Ukraine is huge, has a substantial military, and its people (ethnically almost 80% Ukrainian) would fight like hell. Not to mention grave economic consequences for Russia.

  102. 102
    Another Holocene Human says:

    I wonder if this news is more or less to Bob’s liking. I’m beginning to think he’s just an authoritarian terrified by ‘anarchy’, that is, rule without rulers, the outbreak of direct democracy in Ukraine that seems to have created some strange bedfellows in the English-speaking world.


  103. 103

    @beltane: There was a book published in the 70s, THE CUNNING OF HISTORY, which assigned blame for the Holocaust not only to the Germans and their IBM punch cards, but to others, including Jewish leaders who collaborated early on and during the war, and, of course, the Brits and Yanks who were willing to look the other way while the trains rolled down the tracks.

    There seems to be a Cold War hangover around here among some of the posters. I don’t think I’ve ever defended Putin. I’ve said that supporting stone-cold fascists whose father figures drove the trucks for the Nazis is disgusting and immoral. Maybe some people have stronger stomachs and lower standards for US intervention. Unlike John McCain, I wouldn’t want to be associated with the right-wingers who make Nazi salutes and accuse Jews of controlling the world.

  104. 104
    beltane says:

    @Another Holocene Human: This will sound strange, but I’ve lately been seeing people with distant, sometimes very distant, Jewish ancestry being “reunited” with their Jewish heritage through Chabad. I’m not sure it’s heretical but it is certainly nontraditional.

  105. 105
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    I’ve said that supporting stone-cold fascists whose father figures drove the trucks for the Nazis is disgusting and immoral.

    Who is supporting those stone cold fascists? What I have been seeing is closer to “a pox on both your houses.”

  106. 106
    Anoniminous says:


    Scandinavian historians call the Norwegian whatzzit a ” nationalist movement” (see History of Scandinavia by Derry) which, and from what you tell me is not, what scholars of Nationalism mean by the term. So – OK, fair enough.

  107. 107
    srv says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    while the trains rolled down the tracks.

    Well, you have to admit they ran on time.

  108. 108
    Cervantes says:


    Some of my family are from near Vinnitsa, scene of an enormous massacre, I believe.

    That massacre, in Yezhov’s day (1937), was of ethnic Ukrainians. Local Jews were finished off a few years later. In the collections of the Holocaust Museum in DC there is a photograph, “Last Jew of Vinnitsa,” dated 1941. (In the photograph, he is being executed.)

    If it’s any consolation to anyone: Yezhov was later executed for being insufficiently Stalinist, an “enemy of the people.” Isaak Babel, mentioned earlier today in another thread, was also executed, partly for having an affair with Yezhov’s wife.

    It’s a small world — and yet sometimes its ugliness is infinite.

  109. 109
    dedc79 says:

    @Mnemosyne: So American white supremacists who hate/persecute Jews and African Americans aren’t anti-semites because their hatred isn’t limited to Jews?

    If you look into what Ukrainian nationalists did to Ukrainian Jews in the time between the world wars, its quite clear that jews were targeted with particularity. Ukraine’s own archives suggest that about 100,000 jews were murdered by Ukrainian nationalists in the 1917-21 time period. That others were also targeted doesn’t free the nationalists from being labeled anti-semites.

  110. 110

    @Another Holocene Human: You can’t help yourself, can you? Do you know why the people in Sevastopol support closer ties to Russia? Because they are ethnic Russians. They don’t want to go down some revolutionary shithole with the hayseed fascists who want to rejoin the Third Reich.

    I think that there’s a good possibility of the country splitting, with the western part becoming a vassal state for the EU and the eastern part becoming eventually reabsorbed into Russia. The question I have is: At what cost?

    If the Banderanistas try to preserve the “integrity” of Ukraine by attacking the eastern part they will get their asses kicked as mightily as the Georgians got theirs kicked in 2008. Then the question will be: Does the US want to get involved in a ground war there to serve the interests of German bankers and industrialists?

  111. 111
    Anoniminous says:

    @mike in dc:

    The Russian army is crap. As you say: the Ukrainians would fight like hell. The Poles would go apeshit. The EU would be pissed at the non-flow of natural gas during winter.

    I don’t see Russian military involvement unless the Ukrainians start doing the ethnic cleansing thing.

    ETA: in which case all bets are off

  112. 112
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    Does the US want to get involved in a ground war there to serve the interests of German bankers and industrialists?

    Absent a McCain presidency, US involvement in a ground war in Ukraine is vanishingly unlikely.

  113. 113
    JoyfulA says:

    @OGLiberal: Hmm, I didn’t know she was career (presumably civil service) State Department. I was blaming Obama for not doing a decent job of cleaning house.

    In that case, I’ll give her a break. Getting hired by State requires a person to have brains and skills, so presumably she’ll be able to figure out what’s going on. I hope.

  114. 114
    James E. Powell says:

    This Ukraine situation really brings out the history geeks and I count myself among them. But there are times when I read this stuff and wonder if we’d be better off not knowing anything that happened before we were born.

    That said, am I the only one who thinks that there has been a lot less bloodshed, violence, and mayhem from the collapse of the old CCCP than we had any right to expect? Or is it just too soon to tell?

  115. 115
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @James E. Powell: Too soon to tell.

  116. 116

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’ve seen a lot of cheering for the revolutionaries here. Granted, that’s what the mainstream media have been steering us to. None of our tax dollars have gone to the Soviet Union/Russia since the end of WWII but a lot have gone to fascists and Nazis, although it must be admitted that they make good spies and rocket scientists and interrogation instructors.

    If I seem overly zealous, it’s because the media here in the US seems to be concealing the roots of these revolutionaries for the purpose of selling their revolution to us. If we buy the revolution we will pay for it. Just like how we brought equality to Afghan women and how we brought democracy to Iraq (the power drill to the head thing aside) and how we oppose the evil Assad. More people die, someone gets an oil contract, and an even more evil, more corrupt son of a bitch gets a parade.

  117. 117

    @Omnes Omnibus: Thank god. There’s still a difference between the Republicans and some Democrats.

  118. 118
    Mnemosyne says:


    So American white supremacists who hate/persecute Jews and African Americans aren’t anti-semites because their hatred isn’t limited to Jews?

    Personally, I would call them racists, because their hate is primarily directed at African-Americans and is only partially directed at Jews. But, sure, they’re anti-Semites in addition to primarily being racists.

    Not sure what’s confusing about my use of the word “primarily” here. I’m assuming you don’t actually think that the KKK was only lynching blacks because there weren’t enough Jews at hand.

    That others were also targeted doesn’t free the nationalists from being labeled anti-semites.

    Again, we get into the question of who you think the primary target was. Ukranian nationalists were hyphenates, because they hated everyone who was not Ukranian, including Jews. The Nazis’ assessment was that Bandera and the other Ukranian nationalists were basically indifferent to Jews and were willing to help or harm them depending on what was most expedient at the time.

    When it comes to present-day Ukranian politics, as far as I can tell, both sides are anti-Semitic, so it’s not very helpful to characterize only the opposition as anti-Semitic.

  119. 119
    beltane says:

    @James E. Powell: The relative lack of violence and mayhem could be due to the fact that the population of the area is, on average, quite a bit older than it was during the early 20th century with a death rate that greatly exceeds the birthrate. It takes youthful vigor to sustain a campaign of mass violence and genocide. Old people make talk the talk, but they don’t necessarily have the energy to walk the walk.

  120. 120

    @Anoniminous: The Russian army is crap, true, but they’re better than the Banderanistas. As I said, they’ll be satisfied watching the Ukrainians shiver in winter as long as they leave the ethnic Russians who comprise the eastern part of Ukraine alone. The problem for the Banderanistas is that there’s just not enough Jews to blame anymore and Germany is not going to be supplying natural gas to them. When they fail they will have to find a scapegoat. That’s how it always goes.

  121. 121
    Dedc79 says:

    @Mnemosyne: the Jews WERE as Ukrainian as the nationalists, which is the exact reason “anti semitic”is the proper term for it. That’s why the comparison to their treatment of poles doesn’t fly.

  122. 122
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    So what do you see as our option here? There has been a popular revolution and the president has resigned. So what, in your opinion, is the US supposed to do? Intervene to bring Yanukovich back?

    As far as I can tell, our best option is what we’re already doing, which is politely applauding from the sidelines but not getting actively involved. You seem to want active involvement of some kind, so what is it that you want?

  123. 123

    @Mnemosyne: Jews lived in Ukraine for hundreds of years. That kind of makes them Ukrainians, no?

  124. 124
    monkeyfister says:

    @ulee: RE: Anti-anxienty drugs.

    I was prescribed Hydroxazine as an antihistamine. It is one of the oldest antihistamines, with a great track record. Turns out that it is also a WONDERFUL low-level anti-anxiety drug with no known addictive qualities, and apparently, scant few contraindications. As my workplace continues to go through meltdown as a result of Sequester, I find it works wonders for getting through the insanity of the high-level shitscapade at work. No itching or sneezing, AND I sleep like a baby. (no, not crying through the night with a full diaper)

  125. 125
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Bob In Portland: You would think so, but it didn’t have that effect throughout the rest of Europe until quite recently.

  126. 126
    Mnemosyne says:


    the Jews WERE as Ukrainian as the nationalists, which is the exact reason “anti semitic”is the proper term for it. That’s why the comparison to their treatment of poles doesn’t fly.

    Did you even read the “indifferent” part that I linked to, or did you have your reply in mind before I even posted?

    The original Ukranian nationalists massacred some Ukranian Jews and accepted other Ukranian Jews into the movement. Some of the original nationalists were strongly anti-Semitic and others weren’t. That’s why I’m having a hard time characterizing the entire original movement as “anti-Semitic” — it’s not as clear-cut as you seem to think. Some of them were happy to participate in Nazi-sponsored massacres of Jews and others forged paperwork to get Jews to safety. It’s complicated.

    (Also notice that I’m saying “original movement” because the anti-Semitism of the current politics in Ukraine seems pretty inescapable on both sides.)

  127. 127
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @Bob In Portland: I can’t tell you how glad I am that President Romney isn’t sitting in the Oval Office right now.

  128. 128
    monkeyfister says:

    As to Anne’s post… I DID warn about letting neo-nazis have a share in the power. They are in the doors and onstage now. Were I a Rabbi in Ukraine right now, I’d be giving the same warnings to my flock.

  129. 129
    beltane says:

    @Mnemosyne: It does seem that the nationalists were equal opportunity haters. Aside from the Poles and Jews, there was a centuries’ old Armenian community that was targeted by Bandera’s followers: http://dziedzictwo.ormianie.pl....._1944_roku That is the town a couple of my great-grandparents were born in. It experienced so much extreme violence in such a short period of time that it is a wonder anyone of any ethnicity survived. It would be wrong to single out just the Ukrainians with regards to ethnic cleansing-the first half of the 20th century saw many instances of the mass killings and expulsions of many peoples committed in the name of ethnic nationalism. 1914 is still with us in many ways.

  130. 130
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Bob In Portland: You know what I support, Bob? I support the right of a people to choose their own government, and to choose to express their desire for change if that’s what they want. And if they are willing to stand, night after night, in sub-zero cold and be beaten and shot at (80+ dead here, you’ll recall) to effect change, that deserves respect.

    To pick up on your comment in the earlier thread, the first synagogue that’s “torched” in Kyiv this year, I’ll donate $100 to your favorite charity. The second, $500.

  131. 131
    monkeyfister says:

    @PhoenixRising: Combine neo-nazis with ethnic nationalists as nearly 2/3 of your revolution, and then let them into your government, and nothing will end well. I DO hope I am wrong, but I know I am not.

  132. 132
    James E. Powell says:

    I urge everyone who hasn’t already done so to read Timothy Snyder’s Bloodlands. I doubt that I am the first to recommend the book. Certainly not the complete story, far from it. But it would be a start.

  133. 133

    @mike in dc: I think people designated as ethnic Russian is around 17 percent. Just the right size for persecution. I keep hearing about how those Third Reichers are the exception and not the rule. As long as this revolution is about swapping one corrupt politician for another, maybe there won’t be bloodshed. I don’t see any way that Russia would want to hold onto all of Ukraine, but Sevastopol and all along the eastern part where most of the ethnic Russians are is a different story.

  134. 134
    Mnemosyne says:


    I started reading a book called Balkan Ghosts but couldn’t get past the introduction since it began with an extremely graphic description of one of the massacres of Jews that happened in Romania. Plus Romanian troops under Nazi direction were primarily responsible for one of the worst massacres in Ukraine, the 1941 Odessa massacre.

    That’s where the historical Ukrainian anti-Semitism issues become even more complicated — a lot of the Ukrainian Jews who were murdered during the war were killed by Nazis and their allies, who sometimes but did not always also include Ukrainian nationalists.

  135. 135
    Anoniminous says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    OK. We agree the only realistic scenario for direct Russian military involvement is if the Ukrainians start ethnic cleansing, i.e, start slaughtering Russians.

    We don’t disagree about the “Banderanistas” moving in that direction either through purpose or happenstance because I don’t know enough to have an opinion*.

    * Yes. I ‘went there.’ Hope that doesn’t break the internet

  136. 136
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    The thing is, most of us, if we’re not interested in Vietnam or pop music or gardening or sports or floofy cats or whatthefuckever, we just scroll on by, and come back to participate when there’s a thread to entice us. We don’t feel compelled to troll on every comment that may be out of our personal orbit.

  137. 137
    Botsplainer says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    Hey, Bob? Are you in this for one of the $500 checks from Scoville, or are you in the game on the cheap? And how many blogs do you have to post pro Yuk drivel on before you get paid?

  138. 138

    @Another Holocene Human: How effective the destabilization of Ukraine has been is a big question. Considering the string of corrupt officials who’ve been looting the coffers it’s hard to decipher from where I sit.

    We’ve effectively destabilized Iraq, Afghanistan was so fucked up that all we spent a decade doing was rearranging the wreckage and getting cheaper heroin. Our money destabilizing Syria has been well spent, although I’m sure that the House of Saud has been shelling out for the majority of it.

  139. 139

    @Botsplainer: I guess this is one of those trollish comments. One sheet of tin foil or two?

    John McCain was standing up next to the guy who says Ukraine is controlled by the Russian Jewish mafia, so I don’t know if intimating that I’m a Republican is going to be a particularly fruitful avenue for you.

  140. 140
    beltane says:

    @Mnemosyne: I am not a religious person but the Christian notion of the innate depravity of humans does ring true with me. It is one of the nasty side effects of developing highly evolved cognitive abilities.

  141. 141

    @Gin & Tonic: Will that assuage your guilt?

  142. 142
    monkeyfister says:

    The best way I see to explain what went down in Ukraine:

    Imagine we’re all living overseas.

    Mitt Romney and Scott Walker are in the Oval Office. (just bear me out, here) They give all our monies to their buddies, and everything we know they’d love to do.

    The Teabaggers and the White Supremacists (in tutto) decide Mitt and Scott are not being Conservative enough (or choose your own here), and take to DC, eventually forcing them out of office, and seize control.

    Not knowing the ins and outs of the Teabaggers and the nazis in America, we might cheer that Mitt and Scott’s horrible Admin are out— YEA!!!!

    But, then, months later, we see what took over.

    Very similar situation.

  143. 143

    @Gin & Tonic: Also, how many people voted in Ukraine this week for regime change?

  144. 144
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @beltane: They love people like that with no authentic Judaism to compare it to. Also, in terms of evangelizing strenuously they have little competition. Actually converting is getting tougher and tougher.

    ChaBaD was condemned by mainstream Rabbis in Eastern Europe from its inception but matters really deteriorated when they declared that Schneersohn was the Messiah and now, following his death, engage in the fantasy that he is still alive.

  145. 145
    Botsplainer says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    I guess this is one of those trollish comments. One sheet of tin foil or two?

    Gosh Bob, I dunno. On a day when it took the efforts of a LOLcats site like Buzzfeed to report that American pundits had been paid pittances to propagandize on behalf of Ukrainian kleptocrats, I suppose that when I see you expend so much effort to paint the revolutionaries as bad guys, I wonder as to the earnestness of your belief.

  146. 146

    @monkeyfister: Exactly. I’m old enough to have seen this show dozens of times before. People die, someone gets an oil contract, some new son of a bitch gets a parade.

    Rinse. Repeat.

  147. 147
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @monkeyfister: Yah, that’s exactly how it went down, amazed at your skillz net-splaining from the USA about a situation you clearly know nothing about.

    But it’s all good, your heroes Assange and Greenwald are standing with Putin and against that stupid mob in the street on this one.

    It’s funny how that little detail about politicians changing parties after Yanukovych had provocateurs fire on and kill protesters in the square thus giving the opposition a majority and quorum in the Rada to go ahead and legally roll back his anti-democratic program just completely escaped you.

    It seems like a Cold War question has been answered: Ukrainians love their children more than we do.

  148. 148
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: So you are totally unaware, like other massive tool on this thread monkeyfister, that the Rada, that’s Ukraine’s legislative branch, reconvened and two dozen politicians switched parties and the new majority started passing laws?

    Also you seem very unaware that Yanukovych fled Kiev after his failure to get the army to roll on protesters–btw, US was trying to intervene in this, though they failed, they couldn’t get anyone in military leadership on the phone after Yanukovych sacked a top military leader for defying him, too bad Bob also doesn’t know this even though he knows everything about US military policy–and went to a secret meeting in his stronghold of Kharkiv where he discussed the partition of Ukraine, however, Putin’s envoy told them that Russia would not back this plan, leaving them in disarray.

    Not clear what Yanukovych’s move is right now but rumors are he is trying to find a friendly country to flee to. If he can get out of country, having some trouble with that at present.

  149. 149
    JoyfulA says:

    @Bob In Portland: My Polish in-laws lived in the area of Lwow, in Galicia, for at least hundreds of years (documents from the Saxony era), and it didn’t stop “nationalists” from committing terrorism too horrible for me to write about. It also didn’t stop the USSR from ethnically cleansing them out of their ancestral homes after WWII.

    (The town’s people were differentiated only by religion, from what I’m told: Orthodox, Jews, and a Middle Eastern sort of Catholics, whose priests were married and fathers; my father-in-law related his astonishment at celibate US priests.)

  150. 150
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Bob In Portland: How many millions took to the streets since November? The only regime change this week was the President abandoned his post and ran away.

  151. 151
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: oh my, that was weak sauce, Bob

    “The fact that Ukraine is not a failed state is proof that the US conspired to destabilize it, you can see by analogy to Syria, which, well, I lost my notes about that one but I’m sure it was something really devastating!”

  152. 152
    monkeyfister says:

    @Another Holocene Human: Assange and Greenwald??? WTF??? Where’d that come from? I can’t even with that bullshit. No idea where you are coming from.

    I just said Mitt and Walker– two KNOWN Kleptocrats– as my example.

    I’ve no doubt that those two would sic the Military on the baggers and the nazis, eventually, to keep power. Would Cheney/McCain work better for you as examples?

    YOU are batshit fucking crazy with that line of pure attack. Take your meds and chill the fuck out man.

  153. 153
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @monkeyfister: Just curious here. Do you read Russian or Ukrainian? What primary sources do you follow? How many Ukrainians do you know in Ukraine and how frequently do you correspond with them?

  154. 154

    @Botsplainer: I am not sure where that money is being spent. If you turn on your TV it’s pretty obvious that every network and their local affiliates have come in on the side of the hayseed fascists and against the current/former President and the Russians. Even Bob Costas kicked Putin on the Olympics coverage last night, although Bob’s feet aren’t very big so it was a gentle kick.

    No, I am a liberal. I’m an anti-fascist, so I’ve lived a very sad life as far as international relations go. I confess that maybe I’m a little cranky when it comes to ethnic cleansing and mass murdering.

    Elsewhere I’ve written about the historical relationship between the Nazi residua and our intelligence services. I’ve even mentioned Christopher Simpson’s groundbreaking THE SCIENCE OF COERCION, excellent if you want to study the roots of post-war anti-Communist propaganda.

    I’ve seen MSNBC come in on the side of the neo-Nazis, so we know that what passes for the independent left in our media are in lockstep. CBS, NBC and ABC all are on the revolutionaries’ side. CNN too. I have to confess that I never, ever watch Fox, so maybe that’s where that money is going. Are they supporting Putin these days?

  155. 155
    monkeyfister says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    Did I even go into that kind of fucking Detail? No.

    Chill your fucking attacks.

    You’re crazy rabid.

  156. 156
    Botsplainer says:


    (The town’s people were differentiated only by religion, from what I’m told: Orthodox, Jews, and a Middle Eastern sort of Catholics, whose priests were married and fathers; my father-in-law related his astonishment at celibate US priests.)

    Those were Eastern Rite Catholics (also known as Uniates). They basically use Russian Orthodox/Byzantine liturgical forms but are in union with Rome.

  157. 157
    monkeyfister says:

    @Gin & Tonic: 1/2 my family is Ukrainian, and my Sister In Law is Ukrainian– she’s been here 4 years now.

    She doesn’t like this ending, but hates Yanukovych. Thus my analogy.

    I was talking with Jana this afternoon, and she thought I had it pretty good.

  158. 158
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: I bet you feel real stupid now that $20bn equiv in loans has just been announced by the European Parliament.

  159. 159

    @JoyfulA: Which means what about the fascists in Kiev this week? Unless you’re arguing that ethnic cleansing is okay if you’re evening the score for what happened to your people in the last war, then we probably agree completely.

    So an ethnic cleansing of the ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Yes or No?

  160. 160

    @Another Holocene Human: Huh? How much did the EU loan Greece? How’s that working out?

  161. 161
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @monkeyfister: So you got nothin’, is what you’re saying.

  162. 162
    Botsplainer says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Just curious here. Do you read Russian or Ukrainian? What primary sources do you follow? How many Ukrainians do you know in Ukraine and how frequently do you correspond with them?

    Sadly, my own Russian skills have degraded over time from diminished use after college. I can still read some (used to read Russian classics in Russian without a dictionary), but am mostly screwed on listening comprehension outside of a liturgical setting. One interesting thing – Russian language speakers I know claim to be completely befuddled by Ukrainian.

  163. 163
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: Do you have any fucking clue what this loan deal is about?

    If not, then shut your piehole.

    Btw, Ukraine government bonds are in a bull market since last two days, hardly sounds like Greece to me.

  164. 164

    @Another Holocene Human: Who are you quoting? Is that what you think I am saying? Where do you think that five billion went? Come on, just take a guess.

  165. 165
    monkeyfister says:

    Jana is a Social Liberal and my asshole brother (who does NOT deserve her) is a rabid racist Florida Wingnut subscriber to Stormfront.He and I don’t talk, but she and I really get along well. She named her son after me.

  166. 166
    monkeyfister says:

    @Another Holocene Human: You are motherfucking insane. That’s what I am saying. I am speaking with my SiL with family IN Kiev. That’s something.

    What are YOUR creds in this?

  167. 167
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: Man, you are fucking dumb. Maidan has not taken over Sevastopol; in fact 20,000 apparently pro-Russian protesters turned out and rejected the Yanukovych-appointed mayor and appear to have elected their own mayor. Let the ethnic cleansing begin?

  168. 168
    Botsplainer says:


    He and I don’t talk, but she and I really get along well. She named her son after me.

    Um, did that cause some, um awkwardness around the family?

  169. 169
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @monkeyfister: “When neither the law nor the facts are on your side, pound the table.”

  170. 170

    @Another Holocene Human: The last refuge of a blowhard is “shut your piehole”. And the Ukrainians owe Russia around forty billion for natural gas. Your point? If loans are good, then it’s good that they owe Russia four times that amount?

    You tell me how well every country in Europe but Germany has done with the EU. Come on, share with us.

  171. 171
    monkeyfister says:

    @Botsplainer: Oh. Yes, it does. He and I have no relations. I won’t be in the same room with him. He leaves the house when she and I talk on the phone or on Skype.

  172. 172
    Another Holocene Human says:

    Enjoy these photos from the villa of another hero of the people whom a racist, fascist mob backed by the CIA, the Carlyle Group, and the Queen of England forced to flee this week:


    I love that one of him as a Roman General, perhaps Imperator Caesar Iulii?

  173. 173
    monkeyfister says:

    @Another Holocene Human: So stop pounding the table, and relax wolfenstein. We’re trying to have a civil discussion here. Your attacks are over the fucking top.

  174. 174

    @Another Holocene Human: Couldn’t you just recycle “shut your piehole”?

    No one here has Cassandra-like powers. We know that a lot of anti-Semitic ugliness that accompanied lots of killing sixty years ago is being spouted by people who consider those killers national heroes.

    You can draw your own conclusions. Me, I’m trying to figure out what charity I want Gin & Tonic to send his checks to.

  175. 175
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Bob In Portland: Ah, so you’re a Eurosceptic as well? Right, EU is such a failure there hasn’t been a land war in France in at least 60 years, tsk tsk.

    And you seem so exercised that you can’t do math. I can only put 20 into 40 twice, but perhaps this is special Stalinist math; perhaps you can educate me.

    Also, last I checked Russia still has to play nice with Ukraine because their pipelines are located there unless they really do want to stage an invasion–so far, Putin seems shy.

  176. 176
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @monkeyfister: Ooooo, I attacked you with facts and now you’ve fallen and can’t get up.

  177. 177
    Botsplainer says:


    Oh. Yes, it does. He and I have no relations. I won’t be in the same room with him. He leaves the house when she and I talk on the phone or on Skype.


    Of course, my dad and my aunt haven’t spoken for about 6 years. It’s really going to be difficult when my oldest daughter marries, as my aunt is also her godmother, and we’ve all refused to join my dad’s silliness.

  178. 178
    monkeyfister says:

    @Another Holocene Human: You’re batshit crazy, probably drunk. As I said, My Ukrainian Sister In Law, here for 4 years, with family IN Kiev has me as well informed as anything I can get from any Media. I think she has the inside direct dope on what’s going down. She talks with them nearly daily. She and I talk once or twice a week. Spoke with her today.

    Are YOU in Ukraine? Are YOU talking with family members directly related to this situation? You’ve not answered that.

    I think I can answer that for you– no, and no.

    So, how’d you say it? Something, something pies.

  179. 179

    @Another Holocene Human: 1. I never said Maidan has taken over Sevastopol. 2. I never said anything about how voters there feel about the current/past president or his appointees. Those are two things you imagined. Stop arguing with the voices in your head.

    I asked you how many people voted this week. There was no election this week. The President got out of Kiev because he didn’t want to get lynched. I’m not sure if anyone’s given him good reviews, but he wasn’t voted out of office. That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about what happens when hayseed fascists who worship the apparatchiks of the Holocaust take power. As you’ve shown, some cheer from the sidelines.

    And that’s all. You can support people who believe the world is controlled by the Russian Jewish Mafia. It’s your right. Be proud of your beliefs. Announce them here. If you want to support Nazis, that’s your right. You can even march in Skokie. I just don’t share your beliefs with you.

  180. 180
    monkeyfister says:

    @Botsplainer: I rather prefer we don’t talk. Last time I saw him was when he got married and brought Jana to my place to meet her. I made pierogies, and borscht, and other things to welcome her. He grew incensed by my pics of MLK, JFK, Thurgood Marshall, and other Liberal Heroes on the walls. At dinner, he couldn’t control himself, ended up flipping the table. They were supposed to stay the weekend… didn’t last four hours, sadly. I had to send them off.

  181. 181

    @Another Holocene Human: The EU and its joint currency haven’t existed for sixty years. You may want to reference Paul Krugman’s take on the EU.

    Back in the 1990s Warren Hinckle published a magazine called THE ARGONAUT and they had a whole issue dedicated to the Fourth Reich. What they meant was German predatory banking was going to do to Europe what the stormtroopers couldn’t. On a similar note, why do you think that countries that get IMF loans generally end up worse off than before the loans? Or why loansharks end up beating up gamblers who can’t cover their bets. The difference is that there is a personal responsibility regarding loansharks. In the real world bankers loan money to the leaders of a country and the people of the country suffer.

    Glad to help you out. Now wipe the spittle off your face, get your Stephan Bandera teddy bear and have momma tuck you in.

  182. 182

    @Another Holocene Human: Oh, I stand corrected. Ukraine only owes twice as much to Russia than they will with the EU. Is that good or bad? And if the Ukrainians don’t pay up, are the Russian obligated to continue supplying them with petroleum products?

    What is your point? If America were run like the EU, most of those Southern States would be getting ground down to dust because they take in more from the federal government than they give. The EU, aka the Germans, loaned out lots of money to Spain, Italy, Greece et al, and when there’s a downturn they start the squeeze.

    So you think that’s a good deal for everyone because no one has gotten into a war, excepting Yugoslavia, which hardly counts?

  183. 183
    monkeyfister says:

    @Bob In Portland: I think he done R U N N O F T.
    Hopefully to purge the booze and take his meds.

  184. 184
    JoyfulA says:

    @Bob In Portland: Huh? I responded to your statement that Jews living in Ukraine for hundreds of years made them Ukrainian. I said that Uniates (now that I know the right word) living in what is now Ukraine for at least hundreds of years were terrorized and then expelled. The Other, whoever the Other was, didn’t fare well in Galicia. (Since then, reading links, I’ve also learned that long-established Armenians in the area didn’t live long and prosper, either.)

    What were you replying to?

  185. 185

    Regarding families and politics, my sister is a Daughter of the Confederacy and I was marching with the Black Panther in the sixties.

    I visited my elderly mother, who lives near her, and we all managed the visit without going into Obama’s place of birth once, thank goodness.

    I’m guess once my mom passes there won’t be a lot of communication between my sister and me.

  186. 186
    monkeyfister says:

    @Bob In Portland: Russia, twice in the past six-seven years or so, has very publicly cut off the NatGas to Europe and Ukraine for extortionist purposes. They seem to be playing nice since Olympics and all, but I think that nicey playtime is over now that Sochi is closing down. They DO have that Petro/NatGas trump card hanging over both EU and Ukraine, and will use it again for geopolitical ends… and money.

  187. 187

    @JoyfulA: I don’t disagree with you. I just asked what all this has to do with the current situation in Kiev. If your history lesson was to say that all sides do it, yeah, that’s right. If you’re saying that the next one, against ethnic Russians, is okay because killing is part of the culture, then I beg to disagree with you. I also don’t like my tax dollars funding genocide, but I’m probably being petty.

  188. 188
    monkeyfister says:

    @Bob In Portland: Yeah. Families is weird. My brother has really drunk the koolaid. None of us talk to him much, but I am the only one who refuses to be near him. I have scars from his abuse as a kid, and seeing him flip the dinner table, and go all Hulk SMASH on me with his brand new wife right there was enough for me to say never again. All for the best. I’ll need to see him when Mom and Dad pass, but that will, hopefully be a long while down the line. After that, I’ll be free of him entirely. I doubt he’ll attend anything involving my other brother and sister.

  189. 189
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Bob In Portland: get your Stephan Bandera teddy bear

    Holy cow, they have those? Where can I get one?

  190. 190

    @monkeyfister: Geez, they sound like capitalists. And I thought that was supposed to be a good thing.

    Of course, that’s why when Georgia started whacking Ossetia and the Russians fought back they bombed on either side of the Georgian pipelines just to emphasize that if you fuck with them, they’ll fuck back.

    There have been ongoing articles in Asia Times about the mythical land of Pipelineistan, the region of Central Asia where everyone is trying to drink everyone else’s milkshakes. It’s funny that no one wanted to talk about the pipeline through Afghanistan to the Indian Ocean that’s been on the drawing boards for decades. Or the parallel one that the Iranians want to build. Or the one that’s already sucking oil through Tibet back to China’s factories. Do you suppose the long arm of the CIA might want to stir up trouble in Tibet?

    Anyway, my intended wants my attentions. Later.

  191. 191
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @monkeyfister: The natural gas stranglehold is, interestingly, becoming much less of a factor as fracking grows here in the US, currently already the world’s leading producer. http://www.economist.com/news/.....oked-shale

  192. 192
    monkeyfister says:

    Time for bed. Nice chatting Bob In Portland.

    Handled ol’ boy quite well.

    Is he a regular here, or a troll? Or a regular troll? Is he always like that?

    I don’t let people roll me like he tried. I don’t have a TV. Just the ‘net, and a SiL with family that I care about in the middle of the shit.

  193. 193
    monkeyfister says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Getting it there is the thing. And until the fracking started– which is fraught with problems and expense– Our supplies were dwindling. I think it’s foolish to sell it all off so soon.

    But, that discussion will need to wait.

  194. 194
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Dead thread by now, I’m sure, but the WSJ has a good factual article just up which explains the last several days in Ukraine quite well. Long-ish but worth a read, whether you’re a fascist sympathizer or not. http://online.wsj.com/news/art.....4287691884

  195. 195
    Corner Stone says:

    Man. This thread went to fucking crazy town.
    Holy balls.

  196. 196
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: Apparently, there are a number of people with deep, heretofore unmentioned, connections with Ukraine.

  197. 197
    GregB says:


    As long as the topic isn’t guns or the Catholic Church I have immense respect for his analysis.

  198. 198
    PJ says:

    @JoyfulA: My recollection is that the Uniate Church was originally Orthodox (not by any stretch Middle Eastern) and their liturgy and practices (including married priests) were grandfathered in to the Catholic Church when Galicia and Ruthenia became part of the Austrian Empire. I know little beyond this, except that they have very picturesque wooden churches in Slovakia and Ukraine.

  199. 199
    Ian says:

    @Bob In Portland:

    None of our tax dollars have gone to the Soviet Union/Russia since the end of WWII

    Really? This? , or this?

    My biggest criticism is that you seem to making sweeping, generalized claims without bothering to do a basic google search. Heres the wiki of Julia Tymoshenko, the opposition’s figureheard recently released from prison.

    What in your right friggin mind makes you think she is an anti-semite? Are there opposition protesters who hold these beliefs?- sure. Same with pro-Yanukovich supporters. This doesn’t mean that Ukrainians are anti-semite, the opposition is anti-semite, or any of the other sweeping claims you make. The fourth largest opposition party is the one whose ideology you are applying to an entire nation.

  200. 200
    Ian says:

    Help me FPers! im in moderation and I don’t know why!

  201. 201

    @monkeyfister: That’s the key, I think; energy. The pipelines run all the way to Frankfurt and Milan. The eyes of the world are on Russia right now, and I don’t expect any action. But next winter, or the winter after?

  202. 202
    jl says:

    There is hope that the U.S. will not mess things up too much. I read the Kristol was on the TV today complaining about Obama’s lack of a good, aggressive, Cold War mentality.

    Thank God. Of course, Kristol is wrong about everything, so maybe I am too optimistic.

  203. 203
    IM says:

    @Another Holocene Human:

    The blood of tyrants and patriots.

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