Chilling

That’s really the only thing that can be said about this interview with the neighbors of Michael Dunn which was just released by the lawyer for the family of Jordan Davis:

It was only a matter of time.

*** Update ***

Also, this:

In one of the letters, Dunn talks about how the jail in Jacksonville was ‘full of blacks,’ and suggested if more people ‘arm themselves and kill these **** idiots…they might take a hint and change behavior.’



He wrote: ‘The jail is full of blacks and they ALL act like thugs. I think the legal system is scared of a backlash any time there is a white-on-black incident, but don’t get excited when it’s black on black or even black on white.

‘This may sound a bit radical but if more people would arm themselves and kill these ***** idiots when they’re threatening you, eventually they may take the hint and change their behavior.’



In another letter that was posted to a Facebook page set up by his daughter to drum up support and donations for her father, Dunn expresses how racist the blacks are in Jacksonville.
 He also compares himself to George Zimmerman and says he had a stronger case than the former neighborhood watch volunteer.

Dunn wrote: ‘It’s almost as if they’re trying to hold me for as long as possible, because they know they have such a weak case against me and no chance of winning. Cory, my attorney, says I have a much stronger case of self-defense than Zimmerman does. He said that I should not worry if he loses, but it’s a great sign if he wins.’


Another letter penned by Dunn, who prior to the verdict had no previous criminal convictions, stated: ‘I just got off the phone with you and we were talking about how racist the blacks are up here. The more time I am exposed to these people the more prejudiced against them I become. I suppose the white folks who live here are pretty much anti-black, at least the ones who have been exposed to them.’


That’s a lot of very familiar rhetoric right there, isn’t it?






95 replies
  1. 1
    lahru says:

    He was waiting for the right N-clang to shoot. The only thing he was better at was being white. Sure am glad that the SCOTUS let us know through their actions is that racism over .

  2. 2
    Pogonip says:

    I’m guessing this is the opening salvo in the civil suit? Settle now or the judge sees this at trial?

    Still not a conservative peep on the case, at least not to me.

    I couldn’t get this interview to play, it kept halting about 2 minutes in. I’d appreciate a summary if anyone has the time to provide one.

  3. 3
    Botsplainer says:

    Caution on that one, John. I noticed some things that sounded a little attention grabby (like the spurned RSVP by the gay dads that turned out to be a hoax).

    Dunn is a murdering asshole, but this story raises my eyebrows.

  4. 4
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Surprise, surprise, surprise.

    I’m shocked, shocked that this guy was seen by his neighbor as a violent sociopath.

    Whocouldanode?

  5. 5
    Mandalay says:

    @Pogonip:

    I’d appreciate a summary if anyone has the time to provide one.

    – Dunn had two former wives, a Mexican and a Colombian, and treated them like shit.
    – Treated his son like shit.
    – Hit at least one of his wives.
    – Into hard drugs and loud partying.
    – Made one of his wives go to a sex club.
    – etc…

    Just a good ol’ boy enjoying life. Nothing to see here.

  6. 6
    Punchy says:

    Any word on whether the FL prossy is gunna retry this fuckstick on murder charges? Or is it too early for them to announce this?

  7. 7
    Chyron HR says:

    What’s the big deal? Dunn sounds just like your best friend Ted & Hellen. Maybe you should invite him to be a guest blogger, so that our viewpoints may be suitably broadened.

  8. 8
    ant says:

    Yeah, the way dude took off from the shooting, and from the town where it happened, was a fact that I found pretty damning from the very beginning.

    That was the first clue that he’s a douche bag.

  9. 9
    aimai says:

    @Botsplainer: I have to admit I also think this neighbor account is a little too convenient and attention grabby.

  10. 10
    aimai says:

    @Botsplainer: I’d like to point out that the hoax was not by the “two gay dads” but by the two radio hosts, a man and a woman, who made the entire thing up.

  11. 11
    Pogonip says:

    @Mandalay: Thank you!

    Into LOUD PARTYING? And he kills someone for–? Add “first-degree hypocrisy” to the charges.

  12. 12
    Mandalay says:

    Only slightly O/T, apparently life isn’t a bowl of cherries for George Zimmerman either…

    He told a Spanish language television station he is now homeless, battling post-traumatic stress disorder, more than $2 million in debt and lives in fear for his life…

    Zimmerman said he now lives in fear that his life is in danger. He has worn a bullet proof vest and follows a safety plan when he goes out in public.

    He is also $2.5 million in debt from the trial — although he raised $350,000 online to pay for his defense.

    I wouldn’t be too surprised if Dunn and Zimmerman both end up dead within the next year or two.

  13. 13
    YellowJournalism says:

    @Punchy: They announced same day they were going to retry. Whether or not it gets that far is another matter. Dunn could possibly plead to a lesser charge.

  14. 14
    rikyrah says:

    and this video surprises who?

    not me.

    in the least.

    but, race had nothing to do with it…

    right…..

    uh huh

  15. 15
    JPL says:

    Here say is only permissible against dead black boys.

  16. 16
    MikeJ says:

    @Mandalay:

    I wouldn’t be too surprised if Dunn and Zimmerman both end up dead within the next year or two.

    Dunn will be in prison, so I hope he isn’t killed. He wasn’t sentenced to death and the prison system is responsible for keeping him safe.

  17. 17
    Mandalay says:

    @aimai:

    I have to admit I also think this neighbor account is a little too convenient and attention grabby.

    I disagree. These people were Dunn’s neighbor for eight years, and the only reason you can see that video is that the lawyer of Davis arranged for an interview to be recorded. It’s not as though these folks are attempted to sell their story to People Magazine for a big fat check.

    And they were very detailed and very specific on several incidents. YMMV but I found them both very credible.

    IANAL – can the prosecution team get people to testify to Dunn’s bad character, in the same way that Dunn’s attorney got people to testify about Dunn’s good character?

  18. 18
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Mandalay:

    I wouldn’t be too surprised if Dunn and Zimmerman both end up dead within the next year or two.

    Please, oh please let it be a murder-suicide.

  19. 19
    The Dangerman says:

    Did we ever learn how the jury hanged (i.e., the vote)? I assume one or more jurors will come out and share it.

  20. 20
    Tokyokie says:

    When I read the name “Michael Dunn,” I usually think of this guy:

    http://www.nctc.net/hazard/con....._life2.jpg

  21. 21
    🎂 Martin says:

    @MikeJ:

    He wasn’t sentenced to death and the prison system is responsible for keeping him safe.

    There’s usually a pretty solid neo-nazi/white supremacist population there to look over him. He’ll be fine so long as he’s willing to strip whatever remains of that veneer of non-racist.

  22. 22
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @The Dangerman:

    So far, nothing, but I expect by sometime early in the week one or more of the jurors will have been, um, persuaded by some media outlet to give us some inside scoop.

  23. 23
    TS says:

    @aimai:

    @Botsplainer: I have to admit I also think this neighbor account is a little too convenient and attention grabby.

    These thoughts, held by millions are why Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote

    http://www.theatlantic.com/pol.....nn/283870/

    and why some jurors will always believe a white man is “in fear of his life” because a black kid “disrespected” him.

  24. 24
    legion says:

    ‘This may sound a bit radical but if more people would arm themselves and kill these ***** idiots when they’re threatening you, eventually they may take the hint and change their behavior.’



    I agree. I think the only way things are going to change is if more black people arm themselves and start straight-up murdering racist fucks like Dunn. And then using the exact same SYG justifications to defend their actions. If I was a black man in Florida, I would never go _anywhere_ without a gun.

  25. 25
    Mandalay says:

    @MikeJ:

    Dunn will be in prison, so I hope he isn’t killed.

    Me too; I don’t wish death on anyone ever, no matter what they have done.

    I just think that the nature of what Dunn and Zimmerman did, coupled with the massive publicity they have both received, makes them both targets. I know next to nothing about prison life, but unless Dunn is kept in isolation I would think that it is impossible to truly protect him 24/7.

  26. 26
    Napoleon says:

    @Punchy:

    I heard an sound clip on the radio from the prosecutor and she said they were going to retry him.

  27. 27
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Tokyokie:

    THAT Michael Dunn was a guest star on Star Trek (TOS) in the third season, in an episode famous (or infamous, in the South) for the first interracial kiss on network Television (Kirk and Uhura).

    Story is that the network was NOT happy with that scene, and wanted it reshot, but Shatner kept flubbing the retakes so they had to run with the original take.

  28. 28
    Mandalay says:

    @🎂 Martin:

    He’ll be fine so long as he’s willing to strip whatever remains of that veneer of non-racist.

    A light buffing with a Kleenex should be sufficient to remove that veneer.

  29. 29
    The Dangerman says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    …persuaded … to give us some inside scoop.

    Probably, but, given it seems fairly well confirmed he gets 75 years minimum (I don’t get the 15 for the “missile”; I assume some whacky Florida thing), I figure he pleads out on the murder.

  30. 30
    Mandalay says:

    @The Dangerman:

    75 years minimum

    I’d read that in Florida that the sentences can be made concurrent rather than consecutive on successful appeal. Though of course he also still faces retrial on the murder charge. His chances of ever getting out alive certainly don’t look very good.

  31. 31
    Matt says:

    @Mandalay:

    I have to admit, I LOLed at the part about Z wearing a bulletproof vest all the time. It’s almost like he’s become aware that he lives in a state where somebody could see him on the street, chase him down, and then shoot him to death and successfully claim “self-defense”.

    Gooses, ganders, etc.

  32. 32
    Gex says:

    @aimai: Thank you! Those radio hosts are doing gay people no favors by making shit up that people will now keep blaming the gay dads for making up.

    Please, stop “helping” asshole DJs.

    @legion: This would be better advice if we could expect the legal system to apply the SYG law equally regardless of race. We all know that is never going to happen.

  33. 33
    MikeJ says:

    @Mandalay: He hasn’t been sentenced yet. There’s a good chance he’ll get them concurrent anyway.

    I don’t know why everybody assumes the judge is going to hand out the max.

  34. 34
    Kylroy says:

    I love the scattershot nature of the verdict – guilty of *attempting* to kill the three kids that got away, but not sure about whether he’s guilty of killing the kid who actually died.

    In other words, it appears under SYG that you are allowed to gun people down as long as you make sure they’re dead.

  35. 35
    shelly says:

    And more Newsmax silliness.

    “Cruz Gets Hero’s Welcome in Iowa, N.H.”

    They forgot to use future tense. Cruz will visit Iowa and NH in the Spring (oh, Spring!) and apparently will get some kind of orchestrated love-in that will be billed as totally original. (Ticker-tape parade? Oh, please)

  36. 36
    Yatsuno says:

    @MikeJ: Someone (not sure who) explained yesterday the sentences couldn’t run concurrently. So yeah, if he gets max it’s basically a life sentence.

  37. 37
    Mandalay says:

    @Kylroy:

    In other words, it appears under SYG…

    Nope. Dunn’s attorney did not use SYG.

  38. 38
    TS says:

    @MikeJ:

    I don’t know why everybody assumes the judge is going to hand out the max.

    1. There are some legal precedents that imply consecutive is compulsory
    2. The Judge has a reputation for enforcing the max

  39. 39
    aimai says:

    @TS: Oh, no, that was not my point at all. I’m sure that Dunn was a crazed lunatic who abused his wives and was a stone racist as well. Just that “neighbor testimony on camera” isn’t the slam dunk people always think it is. You have to really lay the groundwork for this kind of hearsay–you have to prove the guy was really a neighbor, you have to prove that at certain points you can confirm his story. Just as shitloads of people will come out of the woodwork to testify, falsely, that Dunn is a wonderful human being you have to be wary of someone who shows up and testifies that he is an awful one.

    But I am not arguing that this neighbor’s testimony is false because Dunn couldn’t have/wouldn’t have done any of the things attributed to him. Of course he could have. It just doesn’t affect the case at all. Regardless of any past history Dunn should have been convicted of first degree murder.

  40. 40
    Patrick says:

    @Yatsuno:

    But couldn’t he get out on parole for good behavior way before that, say in 5-10 years?

  41. 41
    Mandalay says:

    @MikeJ:

    I don’t know why everybody assumes the judge is going to hand out the max.

    He may or may not dish out the max, but my understanding is that whatever sentences he dishes out must be served consecutively rather than concurrently, and that can only be changed on appeal.

    Despite the popular perceptions about Florida’s “wild west” laws, they are pretty brutal in some areas.

  42. 42
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Patrick:
    Good behaviour? Him? If he does leave prison early, I think it’ll be feet first.

  43. 43
    Tara the Antisocial Social Worker says:

    Couldn’t help noticing that both Dunn and Zimmerman had accusations of severe domestic violence against more than one woman. (Not sure if Dunn was ever arrested for it, but Zimmerman was.)

    Guys like Dunn and Zimmerman have figured out that certain people are treated as “acceptable” targets, including wives/girlfriends and young African-American men. They know they can get away with it. If the domestic violence had been treated seriously right from the start, maybe these guys wouldn’t have had the chance to escalate to homicide.

  44. 44
    MikeJ says:

    @Mandalay:

    He may or may not dish out the max, but my understanding is that whatever sentences he dishes out must be served consecutively rather than concurrently, and that can only be changed on appeal.

    My reading was the opposite. There a minimum of 20 years when a firearm is discharged in the commission of a felony, but consecutive v concurrent is up to the judge. I did also read the same article aimai did saying the judge had a rep for tough sentences, but you never know what they may do in an individual case.

  45. 45
    TS says:

    @aimai:

    It came across as your point – I don’t think the neighbors story was any type of “slam dunk” – but I see no reason to say it was too “convenient and attention grabbing”

    Everyone needs to know that Dunn LIED on the witness stand – and if this helps – it is fine by me. If it grabs the attention of just one person who was believing Dunn – so much the letter.

    Sadly Dun was NOT convicted of murder – he should be retried and he should be convicted. The whole message of this outcome is – shoot to kill – dead victims tell no tales.

  46. 46
    Mike in NC says:

    As I noted about our last visit to central Florida (Tampa) last month, gun dealers are as common as gas stations.

  47. 47
    Botsplainer says:

    @TS:

    Kiss my spotty fat ass. As far as I’m concerned, both Zimmerman and Dunn are guilty of Murder 1, and in Dunn’s case at least, he should get the needle. However, I don’t really accept this neighbor account – Dunn is a murderous prick, but even pricks hold their opinions in from mere acquaintances.

  48. 48
    adepsis says:

    @Mandalay: Stand Your Ground changed the legal definition of self defense in Florida. SYG stink is on any case involving claim of self defense – “Media Neglect That “Stand Your Ground” Is Centerpiece Of Florida’s Self-Defense Law”

  49. 49
    Mandalay says:

    @MikeJ:

    consecutive v concurrent is up to the judge

    Well IANAL, and I find the quality of the factual reporting on the Dunn case to be abysmal, but this article implies that it is not up to the judge…

    Judge Russell L. Healey could impose a 60-year sentence — state statutes call for a mandatory minimum sentence of 20 years on each second-degree attempted murder conviction.

    But the Florida Supreme Court could reduce the total sentence to 20 years if it decides that consecutive sentences are not appropriate when the sentences arise from one criminal episode, said Weinstein.

    Not that I care too much about Dunn’s predicament, but my preference would certainly be that the judge has discretion over how multiple sentences are to be served, as you suggest.

  50. 50
    Jennifer says:

    My guess is that this video was part of the evidence-gathering for the civil suit the Jordans would have brought against Dunn, had he not reached a settlement with them. Certainly it wouldn’t be admissible in a criminal court.

  51. 51
    aimai says:

    @TS: Look–people are attention grabbers. People routinely attach themselves to situations to get attention regardless of the actual event or their relationship to it. Thats all I was saying. Not that what he said wasn’t believable–but that you have to be very careful about making sure you know for sure that the person saying what they are saying is in a position to say it. If you are relying on it for some reason.

    I, personally, don’t feel the need to rely on this guy’s statement as “proof” of anything. The world is full of racist assholes who are also wife beaters and gun nuts. Nothing could be less surprising. It is also a fact that this guy Dunn is a murderer who used Florida’s SYG law to murder an innocent teenager. But the statement of the neighbor doesn’t affect that one way or another.

    If you want to see what I really thought about the verdict you can look here, where I blogged it at NoMoreMrNiceBlog http://nomoremister.blogspot.c.....ed-if.html All of us don’t need TNC to tell us how to think about race in this country. Its pretty fucking obvious.

  52. 52
    WereBear says:

    @Tokyokie: I love that guy!

    Incredibly talented.

  53. 53
    WereBear says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: To me, he will always be Dr. Miguelito Loveless, crazed genius villain on The Wild Wild West.

  54. 54
    Patrick says:

    @Mandalay:

    Not that I care too much about Dunn’s predicament, but my preference would certainly be that the judge has discretion over how multiple sentences are to be served, as you suggest.

    If the judge rules against consecutive, doesn’t that send a message that there is no limit to how many people you can try to kill, you would still get the same sentence?

  55. 55
    burnspbesq says:

    Way, way OT: Cole, I hope you got to see the Syracuse – Albany game. Unflippinbelievable. Cuse won 17-16 in OT.

    An amazing weekend of college lacrosse for so early in the season (seriously, the snow pile along the sideline at Lehigh was at least ten feet high), and two games left: Notre Dame Jacksonville at 7:00 Eastern on NBCSN, and Ohio State – UMass right after.

  56. 56
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    I’ve you’ve not seen #DangerousBlackKids on Twitter, then you ought to take a look.

  57. 57
    Patrick says:

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    I especially like the one depicting our great President and our great First Lady.

  58. 58
    Jay C says:

    He wrote: ‘The jail is full of blacks and they ALL act like thugs.

    Umm, Mike? What, exactly, were you expecting to find in your interactions with your African-American fellow-citizens when you’re encountering them in fucking jail??????

    Whatta maroon….

  59. 59
    Mnemosyne says:

    @adepsis:

    Thank you! I remembered reading that after the Zimmerman trial and couldn’t remember where it was from. I knew there had been a significant change to Florida’s self-defense statutes due to SYG but I couldn’t find the darn article again.

  60. 60
    Mnemosyne says:

    Also, too, here’s my paranoid fear that I just came up with and may need a lawyer to soothe for me: since there was a mistrial on the murder count, could Dunn theoretically fight that one in the next trial, get acquitted (somehow), and then challenge his attempted murder convictions on the basis that he was acquitted of the main crime so he couldn’t possibly be guilty of the others?

    I have no idea if that would actually work, so I’m hoping one of our lawyers here could answer it.

  61. 61
    WereBear says:

    @Mnemosyne: It’s not easy to reverse any conviction, even when the Innocence Project has shown that it’s not the convicted person’s DNA on the victim.

    Sadly, “sense” has very little to do with it, any time.

  62. 62
    TS says:

    @aimai:

    All of us don’t need TNC to tell us how to think about race in this country. Its pretty fucking obvious.

    You may not – but millions down in Florida do – I’m not looking for an argument – I have been trying since 2008 to see the world through a black person’s eyes – I know it is impossible for an old white female to do that – but I keep trying.

    I would much rather ALL the attention be given to the man in the video – than be given to Zimmerman – the media thinks differently – because we let them.

    I’ve read your blog – it’s in my favorites – doesn’t mean Mr Neighbor should be seen in a negative light because he wanted to be counted.

  63. 63
    Mandalay says:

    @Patrick:

    If the judge rules against consecutive, doesn’t that send a message that there is no limit to how many people you can try to kill, you would still get the same sentence?

    Probably so, in your specific hypothetical scenario. But there may be alternative hypothetical scenarios where it would be entirely appropriate to impose concurrent rather consecutive sentences. A judge would not be obliged to impose concurrent sentences simply because it was possible. Give them the choice.

    To be clear, I am only voicing my preference for the judge being able to exercise discretion in general – I have no sympathy for Dunn.

  64. 64
    Mandalay says:

    @aimai:

    Look–people are attention grabbers. People routinely attach themselves to situations to get attention regardless of the actual event or their relationship to it. Thats all I was saying.

    I see no evidence – absolutely none – that Dunn’s neighbors were “attention grabbers”. What’s the evidence?

  65. 65
    efgoldman says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    and then challenge his attempted murder convictions on the basis that he was acquitted of the main crime so he couldn’t possibly be guilty of the others?

    IANAL, but no. The murder charge includes only the actual decedent. The other charges are for shooting at the other kids in the car, one charge each.

  66. 66
    Patrick says:

    @Mandalay:

    I hear you and I totally agree with you.

  67. 67
    proterozoic says:

    So, Joe in other words: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065916/

  68. 68
    MikeJ says:

    @Mandalay: That article says the judge *could* impose 60 year sentence, but not that he is obligated to. It also says the states supremes *could* overturn, but not that they are obligated to.

    Since the 20 year term is mandatory, the only place where it appears the judge has discretion is on consecutive v concurrent.

  69. 69
    Mnemosyne says:

    @efgoldman:

    I guess what I’m worried about is that if, for some bizarre reason, the next jury comes back with a “not guilty” verdict on the murder because it was self-defense, Dunn would be able to appeal the attempted murder convictions on the grounds that since the one death was self-defense, then the rest of the shootings were also self-defense.

    This would be the one rationale I could see for him continuing to fight rather than accepting a plea bargain but, as I said, I have no idea if it’s even legally possible.

  70. 70
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @Mnemosyne: Forget it, Jake. It’s Florida.

  71. 71
    aimai says:

    @Mandalay: I’m not asserting it as a fact–just agreeing with botsplainer that people have to be cautious about jumping on unsworn testimony that appears in and around important trials. I have no dog in this hunt.

  72. 72
    TS says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    This would be the one rationale I could see for him continuing to fight rather than accepting a plea bargain but, as I said, I have no idea if it’s even legally possible.

    Fairly sure that his lawyer has already discussed this as a possible – regardless – he will appeal. I do not see any benefit at all in him doing a plea on the murder charge – he is out of cash – will have a public defender (could be a good one given the case) – and a win against murder could well bring out the troops to support him. I think it will be near impossible to find a jury that will convict. Most likely outcome will be another mistrial.

  73. 73
    Mnemosyne says:

    @The Thin Black Duke:

    It’s probably a paranoid fear considering that in Florida even old white guys get 20 years in prison for firing warning shots that don’t harm anyone, but SYG has fucked up Florida’s self-defense laws in all kinds of ways, so who the hell knows anymore?

  74. 74
    Mandalay says:

    @MikeJ:

    the only place where it appears the judge has discretion is on consecutive v concurrent.

    Maybe you are right. I found a couple of links that leave me none the wiser, and more confused…
    In a different (but similar?) case:

    When a defendant with a gun threatens four people and then discharges the gun into the air, the court is required to impose consecutive 20-year mandatory minimum sentences when the defendant is convicted of four aggravated assaults

    OTOH, this certainly seems to support your interpretation:

    Under the mandatory minimum sentencing scheme, Dunn faces mandatory minimum sentences of 20 years on each of the three counts of attempted murder and 15 years on the charge of throwing of missiles (because a gun was used Florida’s ”10-20-Life” statute bumps what would normally be a 2nd degree felony to a 1st degree felony)

    Because all the charges stem from a single set of acts, the sentences would likely be served concurrently, rather than consecutively, meaning in effect that Dunn would be sentenced to 20 years, the Florida norm. The sentencing judge has the discretion, however, to make the sentences consecutive, in which case Dunn would be looking at 75 years–effectively a life sentence for a ~40 year old. His sentencing may take place immediately, or at a separate sentencing hearing.

    I guess we’ll just have to wait a few weeks, until Dunn is sentenced.

  75. 75
    Mnemosyne says:

    @TS:

    Actually, given the rest of the verdicts, I’m with the group who thinks that the jury deadlocked over which of the four possible charges Dunn should be convicted of, not whether or not he was guilty. I guess we’ll find out next week what the jury’s final vote was, but I don’t think Dunn being acquitted in the next trial is a sure thing by any means.

  76. 76
    Mandalay says:

    @aimai: OK, gotcha.

  77. 77
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yeah, that’s exactly the problem, isn’t it? When common sense is left behind, all that’s left is chaos. Hell of a way to run a country.

  78. 78
    TS says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I really doubt they were deadlocked between Murder 1 2 3 – or even manslaughter. That could have been discussed to a solution. At least one person – maybe more – wanted acquittal (or at least one person or more wanted M1 or M2). The jury questions about self defense/justifiable force gave me that doubt.

    First “Is the defense of self-defense separate for each person in each count?”
    Second, “Are we determining is deadly force is justified against each person in each count?”
    Third “If we determine deadly force is justified against one person, is it justified against the others?”

    http://www.wokv.com/news/news/.....tin/ndP7d/

    Unless the jury speak we will never know – but I get the impression that someone on the jury was suggesting if Dunn was justified in shooting Jordan – then he was justified on all counts – and the foreperson had the sense to ask the judge.

    At this point of jury deliberations many people correctly thought counts 2-5 would be guilty with 1 causing the delay – because nothing else made sense in relation to these questions.

    Edit: I am not convinced Dunn will be acquitted in the next trial – I also don’t think he will be convicted – another mistrial is likely.

  79. 79
    Ruckus says:

    @ant:
    The fact that he went and got his gun, loaded it and shot an unarmed man and tried to kill several others wasn’t your first clue?
    Your standards of douchebaggery are much higher (or is it lower?) than mine.

  80. 80
    NonyNony says:

    @Matt:

    I have to admit, I LOLed at the part about Z wearing a bulletproof vest all the time. It’s almost like he’s become aware that he lives in a state where somebody could see him on the street, chase him down, and then shoot him to death and successfully claim “self-defense”.

    Zimmerman was a paranoid coward before he decided to execute an unarmed kid for the crime of walking through a neighborhood while black. The fact that he “got away” with cold blooded murder has probably not helped him to be less of a coward – far from it since he probably now lives in terror of people doing to him what he did to Travyon Martin.

  81. 81
    mainmata says:

    Watching “True Detectives” “…What happens between men and women – reality”. Such a good show. The opening credits are like a montage to Dada, Surrealism and the late Sixties photography. Never seen a show quite like this. It is totally addictive.

  82. 82
    cthulhu says:

    I think this really points up the inherent conflict with current efforts to develop sane gun policy. It seems like we have largely given up on pressing for outright bans whether it be certain classes of guns, types of ammunition, etc. (though frankly I think such options still remain a popular choice in the population at large). So lately we seem to be focusing on better gun ownership screening, i.e., keeping guns out of the hands of people who can’t be trusted to use them responsibly. Clearly, in retrospect, Dunn was the type of person where his having a gun put others at risk in a much different way than his owning other weapons might have (sure he could have threatened his wives equally well with knives but the murder he committed would have been much more difficult). Yet, given his apparent sociopathic personality, he very well might have been able to sneak through any psych eval, certainly the type that would be workable as a gun ownership screen (maybe he would have failed a drug test if it were part of it – which brings up another crazy irony – we talk about testing people to get welfare benefits but not for gun ownership?). In any case, if there were 100% accurate tests for such assholery, I’d guess a good 10-20% (maybe 27% :-) ) would be deemed ineligible for gun ownership under such a standard. Since there’s already push back against prohibiting people with actual psych diagnoses from having guns, I don’t see how we get to the point of getting the guns out of the hands of someone like Dunn.

    I think it is also relevant that the neighbor said that Dunn solicited a hit over a business conflict, that he reported it to the police, and that nothing was done. It is certainly possible that the police did investigate it and found the evidence lacking. Or maybe they didn’t have enough resources to do so. But the simple fact is that the ability of the police to prevent crime is far more limited than we like to believe (certainly compared to what we see all the time on movies and TV). We are fortunate enough to just see justice done after the fact – sometimes. So maybe preventing these events is more of a pipe dream than anything.

  83. 83
    Kay says:

    @NonyNony:

    Zimmerman was a paranoid coward before he decided to execute an unarmed kid for the crime of walking through a neighborhood while black. The fact that he “got away” with cold blooded murder has probably not helped him to be less of a coward – far from it since he probably now lives in terror of people doing to him what he did to Travyon Martin.

    He’s still making stuff up. His big sob story about how he’s 2.5 million in debt is edited for dramatic effect, like everything else he says.

    Florida pays legal costs when they acquit. Zimmerman’s lawyers have already submitted a bill for the experts, the cartoon where they “re-enacted” Zimmerman’s imaginary story, and other costs. Florida will contest the bills, but George Zimmerman certainly isn’t paying them.

    Zimmermans owes his lawyers what he claims is 2 million or 2.5 million because Florida doesn’t reimburse legal fees.

    But Zimmerman doesn’t have a job and he’s essentially uncollectible. So everyone involved, both him and his lawyers, know he’s never paying them. Just another George Zimmerman fairy tale.

  84. 84
    xenos says:

    @adepsis: Read the FL jury instructions. The SYG is recapped there in the text on self-defense. Defendent gets a second bite of the apple. Thus you get irrational verdicts like this.

  85. 85
    Cygil says:

    @Mandalay: Psychopaths. Are. Masters. At. Playing. The. Victim.

    Nothing is ever their fault, and they are always the “real” victim and not the poor person who’ve they’ve bullied/beaten/threatened/shot/lied about etc.

    What I’m saying is, without access to Zimmerman’s financial records, assume his poor me routine is just another psychopathic manipulation.

  86. 86
    Glibmeister says:

    I’m not as enthusiastic as the neighbors are to trash Dunn because he’s an atheist and a marijuana smoker and a swinger. I prefer to trash him because he killed a guy for no reason.

  87. 87
    Paul in KY says:

    @Mandalay: I wouldn’t believe anything self serving that murdering asshole says.

  88. 88
    Paul in KY says:

    @legion: Just make sure they have a legal concealed carry license. Not hard to get in FL.

  89. 89
    Paul in KY says:

    @Botsplainer: Some pricks love to spout their hideous viewpoints. If you don’t really say anything or sorta nod your head, they think you are down with them & prattle on.

  90. 90
    Paul in KY says:

    @aimai: He should be retried.

  91. 91
    Paul in KY says:

    @Mnemosyne: Would not work, as the attempted charges where for the other 3 young men who were with the victim.

  92. 92
    Paul in KY says:

    @Mnemosyne: The old man should be pardoned by Gov Voldemort.

  93. 93
    brantl says:

    @Mandalay: Cowards always live in fear for their lives, it’s Karma.

  94. 94
    brantl says:

    @Matt: And if it happens wearing the vest means he expected a fight, maybe because he was willing to start one?

  95. 95
    brantl says:

    @Botsplainer: Not the really stupid ones, and if the stories are true, he’s one of the really stupid ones.

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