Obama’s NSA Speech

Here’s the text of Obama’s speech. Here’s the Post summary of changes. Major changes are having some other entity (to be determined) hold bulk metadata instead of the government, ending eavesdropping of foreign leaders who are allies, requiring two degrees of separation between suspected terrorists and anyone whose data is collected (it was three degrees), time limits on the gag orders for national security letters, and new limits on collection and retention of data collected from foreign citizens.

Update: Here’s the full text of the changes, via Kevin Drum.






193 replies
  1. 1
    Culture of Truth says:

    Also President would “immediately require authorities to obtain a court order to access [ metadata ]”

  2. 2
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Culture of Truth: Glad to hear it. Lack of court oversight on that was worrisome, at least to me.

  3. 3
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Betty Cracker: Agreed.

    This sounds like a good start.

  4. 4
    Cassidy says:

    JUST WORDS! JUST WORDS! BULLY PULPIT!

  5. 5
    JoeShabadoo says:

    Since when has the NSA actually followed the rules?
    They will just have their own top secret legal interpretations of the rules that says they can do anything they want.

  6. 6
    MikeJ says:

    ending eavesdropping of foreign leaders who are allies,

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

    Not gonna happen. Frankly, I’m not convinced it should happen. Of course we’re going to spy on Germany. They’re going to spy on us too. We’re just going to go back to not talking about it in pubic.

  7. 7
    Rob in CT says:

    @MikeJ:

    Seriously, that was the part of all of this that bothered me the least. I mean, it was bad that it came out, as it damaged our diplomacy (temporarily, one hopes). But I’m not actually offended that they were doing it.

  8. 8
    Cassidy says:

    I saw nothing in that speech about offering immunity to Snowden and Greenwald and anointing them as Supreme Saints of Awesomesauce Truthiness and Amazing Heroes of the Most Amazing Heroes Ever. Not. Good. Enough.

  9. 9
    dpm (dread pirate mistermix) says:

    @Rob in CT: So they don’t bug Merkel’s iPhone – just all her staff’s. It’s a fig leaf.

  10. 10
    Ben Franklin says:

    Landmark speechifying.

  11. 11
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @MikeJ:

    Exactly. We will continue to spy on everyone, and everyone will continue to spy on us. This is a very, very old game. Ursprache old. It’s a long game, of innovations, counter-innovations, apologies, non-apologies, etc.

    Everyone knows that in a negotiation, there’s the public face and the private face. Until the Psi Corps comes along to read the minds of those you negotiate with, you’ll need espionage to try to figure out what they really want, and how far they’ll go to get it.

  12. 12
    Belafon says:

    @MikeJ: Suddenly every other country is just an acquaintance.

  13. 13
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    OT but hilarious, from Noisemax:

    Mark Levin to GOP: Boycott State of the Union

    Mark Levin to GOP: Take WATB behavior to the next level!

  14. 14
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I haven’t had much of a problem with the overseas stuff.

    To me, the big thing is that a court order be required to poke through people’s affairs.

  15. 15
    ericblair says:

    @Rob in CT:

    Seriously, that was the part of all of this that bothered me the least. I mean, it was bad that it came out, as it damaged our diplomacy (temporarily, one hopes). But I’m not actually offended that they were doing it.

    I follow French and German domestic news. The French basically gave it the Gallic shrug, saying of course everybody does this, were impressed with the resources the NSA had to do this, and criticized French counterintelligence for being incompetent. Everybody remembers the Chirac days.

    The Germans were more pissed off about it. However, there was a fair bit of pushback of the form of “how do YOU like it, Merkel” based on some of the recent history of what the BfV (German domestic intelligence service) has been up to, and the fact that the German government has been cooperating with the NSA all this time.

  16. 16
    Chris says:

    @MikeJ:
    @Rob in CT:

    This. I hope to Christ we’re collecting every bit of data we can on our good “friends” in Israel, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. There can be practical reasons why it’s a bad idea to spy on your allies in this or that circumstances, but a blanket ban? Please.

  17. 17
    Chyron HR says:

    @JoeShabadoo:

    You’re right, Obama must abolish the NSA entirely. Oh, wait, they will continue to operate in secret because everybody knows they don’t follow any rules.

    We could defund the agency, but I suppose they would turn to drug trafficking to pay for their illegal telephony metadata sweeps. I guess we should just give up on America entirely and split into 50 warring states.

  18. 18
    MikeJ says:

    BTW, don’t get me wrong. I like a lot of the other stuff. They should need court orders for domestic stuff, and there should be more oversight. But there are legitimate uses for intelligence gathering and when it comes to foreign targets I don’t believe anything will actually change.

  19. 19
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Also, too, the problem with metadata is that it is such a tempting source for fishing expeditions. The holder of the metadata needs to be truly independent, and release of its holdings needs to be highly supervised and transparent. This is the main problem with the FISA court right now…it’s opaque by design with malice aforethought. “Security” suddenly trumps every other possible value, because if the target gets wind of the access to the metadata, they’ll change their behavior, rendering the targeted metadata useless in a real time monitoring sense, which is what the NSA aspires to accomplish, in the hopes of heading off the “bad guys”, whoever this week’s usual suspects are, off at the pass.

    No one is willing to accept that “shit happens” is the norm. We’ve got to stop the shit, or, at the very least, use the shit to our advantage: can you say Dick Cheney demanding a link between 9-11 attacks and all our oil sitting under Saddam’s realm, boys and girls? Sure you can!

  20. 20
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Chyron HR:

    but I suppose they would turn to drug trafficking to pay for their illegal telephony metadata sweeps

    It’s worked pretty well for CIA. Can we add yet another redundant agency to our spy catalogue?

  21. 21
    Cassidy says:

    This won’t be made right until Snowden and Greenwald are given a cross country parade for their devotion to Progressive Truthiness and all the Progressive Truthinessers who supported them on blogs across the country are pulled out of their anonymity and given complimentary handjobs by all those evil NSA analysts.

  22. 22
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Chyron HR:

    NSA = No Such Agency

  23. 23
    Bill Arnold says:

    Reducing chaining from 3 hops to 2 is a pretty big deal.

  24. 24
    Chris says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    And when the Psi Corps does it, it will still be spying, just as much as when it was done with NSA intercepts, satellite overheads, double agents, concealed microphones and people hiding in closets.

  25. 25
    catclub says:

    @ericblair: This. Another commenter said you will know if it is different if the Germans or French pass some laws that change the status of the relationship. They didn’t.

  26. 26
    catclub says:

    I was surprised by the buzzfeed article on all the anonymous spies who want Snowden dead. The one who said he was the worst traitor ever must not have known about Aldrich Ames or the Navy guy.

    I wonder if all those guys are contractors who are afraid of losing income.

  27. 27
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Chris:

    BINGO!

    One of the interesting little subplot points of B5 was that the telepaths had all sorts of restrictions on what they could report to whoever hired them to monitor a negotiation. Some telepaths were more than willing to violate the ethical code that was imposed on them in order to deliver the product their employers were looking for.

    Same old same old.

  28. 28
    Cacti says:

    All sound good except for the one about ending eavesdropping on foreign leaders who are allies.

    An ally is an ally until they’re not.

  29. 29
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @catclub:

    I wonder if all those guys are contractors who are afraid of losing income.

    Nah, that can’t be it. Must be something else.

    One thing Snowden did do was create a shitton of busywork for those left behind at Fort Meade and the various Beltway bandit shops in all those edge city business plazas.

  30. 30
    chopper says:

    @catclub:

    I was surprised by the buzzfeed article on all the anonymous spies who want Snowden dead.

    why? even snowden himself once said that people leaking info should be ‘shot in the balls’.

  31. 31
    Cacti says:

    @catclub:

    I was surprised by the buzzfeed article on all the anonymous spies who want Snowden dead. The one who said he was the worst traitor ever must not have known about Aldrich Ames or the Navy guy.

    I’d say caveat lector on the reliability of unsourced buzzfeed stories.

  32. 32
    Bill Arnold says:

    @Cacti:

    An ally is an ally until they’re not.

    Did you ever play that game “Diplomacy”? Lot of fun.

  33. 33
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Cacti:

    Well, what this REALLY means is “oh shit, it’s out in the open!”.

    They’ll find a new way of doing this.

    Gathering intelligence on what the TRUE intentions of your allies, various neutrals, or adversaries have in mind is fraught with danger, not only of your intelligence gathering being detected, but also of getting false readings that play to your own prejudices. This is where the malassstration went horribly, horribly wrong with the “stovepiping” meme. Guys like Curveball could play them like violins.

  34. 34
    Cacti says:

    @Bill Arnold:

    Did you ever play that game “Diplomacy”? Lot of fun.

    No, but it looks interesting.

  35. 35

    A few more restrictions and transparency. A third party to provide an extra layer for data access so that any violations are more easily revealed. A measured solution to a non-apocalyptic problem. Sounds about right. I like the time limits on gag orders, myself.

  36. 36
    ericblair says:

    @catclub:

    This. Another commenter said you will know if it is different if the Germans or French pass some laws that change the status of the relationship. They didn’t.

    There are also ongoing domestic concerns: certain factions in Germany have long wanted into the Five Eyes intelligence alliance (US/Canada/UK/Aus/NZ) which has a mutual non-spying agreement, and the NSA spying scandal looked like a way to force the issue. Apparently the US isn’t interested, so it looks like it’s dead for now. Also, the shit hit the fan during the runup to German federal elections, so a lot of things got said for domestic consumption at the time.

  37. 37
    FlipYrWhig says:

    Sure, Obama has endorsed [stuff], but there’s also the matter of [other stuff], and the fact that he {hasn’t done [other stuff] by now | hasn’t tried hard enough to do [other stuff]} is obviously a [disaster | betrayal | fiasco], and anyone who disagrees is a jack-booted authoritarian lickspittle.

  38. 38
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @ericblair:

    Also, the shit hit the fan during the runup to German federal elections, so a lot of things got said for domestic consumption at the time.

    This should never, ever be discounted when looking at the overall picture.

  39. 39
    NonyNony says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Also, too, the problem with metadata is that it is such a tempting source for fishing expeditions. The holder of the metadata needs to be truly independent, and release of its holdings needs to be highly supervised and transparent.

    Yes. This. The whole idea of having a “non-government” entity holding onto the metadata is pointless if we still have a regime of secret warrants granted by secret courts that nobody knows about and if that entity allows data mining techniques on the data that allow for fishing expeditions.

    Ideally the setup would be that somehow the people holding the data can’t read it because it’s encrypted with a key they don’t have. The government would have the key to but wouldn’t be allowed access to the data until they show up with a court order. The holding entity would have the data but wouldn’t be able to use it for anything, but would need the government’s participation to read anything. But the only way to make this work is if the entity holding onto the data had a real adversarial relationship with the law enforcement arm of the government to keep backroom deals to a minimum, and I just don’t see how that can work. It can’t be the individual telcos holding the data either, because they would have a strong incentive to cooperate in backroom deals for a lot of reasons – it has to be an entity that would have no incentive to cooperate beyond the minimum amount that needs to be done to fulfill the terms of a warrant. I just don’t see how that’s going to happen in practice.

  40. 40
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Cacti:

    Oh, believe me, it is. The game schools you in the fine art of the well placed shiv in the back.

  41. 41
    kc says:

    Major changes are having some other entity (to be determined) hold bulk metadata instead of the government

    That’s not particularly comforting.

  42. 42
    taylormattd says:

    @Cassidy: My favorite part is that Obama is following, in very large part, the recommendations of his NSA panel. At the time the panel recommendations were released, here is what Greenwald applauded them. He now says, however, that Obama is “keeping everything the same”.

  43. 43
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NonyNony: For that adversarial entity, seems like you’d need a civil liberties division of the DoJ or something like that. Inside the executive branch but tasked with being absolutely zealous about protecting the public’s privacy rights.

  44. 44
    LanceThruster says:

    Joseph Heller once observed, “Catch-22 means people have the right to do to you anything which you cannot prevent them from doing to you.”

    That’s some catch!

  45. 45
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @taylormattd: Well, that’s how this always works. The minimal difference between one position and another instantly hardens into the one fundamental difference that justified continued indignation. Some people are just wired that way.

  46. 46
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @taylormattd:

    Which only brings up, again, what Greenwald’s true motivations are for this. You can take him at face value, or, if you’re cynical, wonder just why that change in attitude took place.

    Given aspects of Greenwald’s background, it’s foolish to take him at face value.

  47. 47
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @LanceThruster:

    The best there is!

  48. 48
    ericblair says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Which only brings up, again, what Greenwald’s true motivations are for this. You can take him at face value, or, if you’re cynical, wonder just why that change in attitude took place.

    Greenwald’s motivation is that he has a pretty good gig right now feeding the Outrage-O-Matic and isn’t going to give it up until he’s extracted every last nickel and pagehit out of it.

  49. 49
    NonyNony says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    For that adversarial entity, seems like you’d need a civil liberties division of the DoJ or something like that. Inside the executive branch but tasked with being absolutely zealous about protecting the public’s privacy rights.

    I’m not sure that would work, because the pressure from inside the executive branch would be too great. Nobody wants to be the President who presides over a major terrorist attack that “could have been stopped if only those paper pushers had just let us have the data”. And that’s what will happen to any entity that is tasked with holding the data – it will either be pressured into doing things behind the scenes, or it will be used as a scapegoat when the next successful attack inevitably occurs anywhere on the planet.

    That’s why it can’t be inside the government. But also why its status as an independent entity would be problematic. And why the telcos can’t be trusted with it either. It’s not something that seems to have an easy solution, which is probably why what was proposed in the speech seems so hand-wavy compared to the other points.

  50. 50
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @NonyNony:

    Nobody wants to be the President who presides over a major terrorist attack that “could have been stopped if only those paper pushers had just let us have the data”.

    Exactly. And no one imagines for a New York nanosecond that the party out of power won’t feed that meme.

  51. 51
    LanceThruster says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I was so hoping someone would add that bit.

    xD

  52. 52
    Belafon says:

    @NonyNony: A good solution would require debate in Congress, oversight, ownership by all relevant parties – the Executive and Congress – and a willingness to continually fix problems. It’s one of those areas that, to be done correctly, cannot be a political weapon. Politics would have to stop at the security’s edge.

  53. 53
    Ben Franklin says:

    @ericblair:

    isn’t going to give it up until he’s extracted every last nickel and pagehit out of it.

    Truly, this Admin, is the gift that keeps giving.

  54. 54
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Belafon:

    Well, if we had a Congress that didn’t have a substantial minority of screaming three year olds in a position to stop adult business on a whim, that would be possible.

  55. 55
    Glocksman says:

    @Rob in CT:

    Indeed.
    One would think that Americans screaming about spying on foreign leaders were channeling their inner Henry Stimson.

    Gentlemen do not read each other’s mail

    Of course later on Henry changed his mind.
    I’m upset they got caught, not that they were doing it.

    Similarly, I never had an attitude of ‘how dare they’ WRT Aldrich Ames, Jonathan Pollard, or John Walker spying for the Soviet Union and Israel.
    That said, I strongly believe all three traitors should never get out of prison.

  56. 56
    jonas says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Some 12 years later, the media, public, and politicians still cling to the old canard that 9/11 happened because we were in the dark about the plot and our intelligence capabilities were too limited. No — Customs, the FBI, and the CIA had all the pieces sitting in front of them, gathered using regular, old-fashioned collection tools. The August 01 NIE said an attack was coming. It was about putting the pieces of the puzzle together — not a lack of pieces. The idea that just having lots of pieces to play with makes us safer is an illusion.

  57. 57
    ericblair says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    Truly, this Admin, is the gift that keeps giving.

    Right, because the Obama administration is the most corruptest administration in the history of ever. I heard that on Fox News too.

  58. 58
    NonyNony says:

    @Belafon:

    It’s one of those areas that, to be done correctly, cannot be a political weapon. Politics would have to stop at the security’s edge.

    Then we will never do it correctly because, absent the existential outside threat of the Soviet Union, there has never been a time in our history when ANY issue has not been able to be used as a political weapon. Ever.

    If we need politics to go away to have security, then we might as well ask for unicorns. With today’s understanding of genetics it’s actually more likely that we’ll get the unicorn.

  59. 59
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Another Noisemax OT:

    Noonan: Christie Is ‘Selfish’ Man

    The sound of the knives being pulled is a cacophony now.

  60. 60
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @jonas:

    Viewing things as history, it’s so easy to smack our collective forehead and say “all the pieces were right there, in front of us, waiting to be fitted together in a mosaic that would have allowed us to prevent this tragedy.”

    Retrospect always is that way.

    “If only we had more pieces!” is the intuitive response that rationalizes away our helplessness in the face of reality.

  61. 61
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @NonyNony: Is it even possible to have an entity that protects the rights of the people that isn’t “inside the government” at some level? That’s kind of what governments are chartered to do, no? I’m not sure some sort of privacy protection agency would be any more susceptible to pressure or incompatible with other governmental functions than, say, the department of environmental protection or the consumer product safety commission. Call me a statist but that’s what I’d do…

  62. 62
    MomSense says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I think it might have something to do with Der Spiegel. They reported that they had been given information they chose not to publish because it would have exposed operatives.

  63. 63
    ericblair says:

    @jonas:

    It was about putting the pieces of the puzzle together — not a lack of pieces. The idea that just having lots of pieces to play with makes us safer is an illusion.

    We did figure the puzzle out before 9/11 and the career guys were running around like their hair was on fire trying to get the White House to listen. Bush wanted to screw around with ballistic missile defense, and here we are.

    However, it’s a pretty valid argument that we’ve been relying far too heavily on signal intelligence because our human intelligence these days sucks. The terrorist groups are very difficult to penetrate, we’ve hung some key allies out to dry, and the security clearance process has historically been way too suspicious of anyone with foreign ties (who, you know, speak the language and understand the culture).

  64. 64
  65. 65
    Ben Franklin says:

    @ericblair:

    Well, the criminal state of Russia is enjoying the diorama of relative corruption since their fall from chief Axis Evil. Our patina has worn thin.

  66. 66
    dmsilev says:

    OT, the ascension of Hillary Clinton to the Presidency is now a mathematical certainty:

    If Hillary Clinton had any doubts about her chances in 2016, she might be reassured by Bill Kristol’s latest column: “Hillary likely won’t run. If she does, she likely won’t win. We think.”

  67. 67
    Belafon says:

    Major changes are having some other entity (to be determined) hold bulk metadata instead of the government

    If they can find an entity. There will probably have to be some other government agency that does this.

    @Ben Franklin: Get over it. Considering that Russia imprisons women for singing, businessmen for competing against other companies (estimates are at 100K inmates are for competing against the wrong person), and other things, the US would have to go on a serious turn into a tyranny binge to catch up. When I stop seeing you commenting on here for speaking out against the president, then I’ll start wondering.

  68. 68
    Cervantes says:

    @catclub:

    I wonder if all those guys are contractors who are afraid of losing income.

    If we can judge by the quotations in the article, they need counseling.

  69. 69
    lol says:

    @Belafon:

    You know, it’s really weird that in all the tens of thousands of intelligence docs that Snowden stole, he managed to not steal anything that would put Russia in a bad light. Weird.

  70. 70
    Belafon says:

    @NonyNony: Yep, that’s why I don’t hold out much hope. The best we can really do is elect the right people.

  71. 71
    El Caganer says:

    @dmsilev: She’s obviously going to win in a landslide with an anti-endorsement from Billy K.

  72. 72
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Are you sure they’re not harpoons?

  73. 73
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Belafon:

    Russia is a babe in a manger with regard to civil liberties, whereas we have supposedly been the leaders of the free World, at least on paper for a couple of centuries. It’s a cartoonish comparison, but not as starkly different from the US as some would like to think.

  74. 74
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Kissinger used to play Diplomacy with his grad students, back in the pre-Nixon days when he was just a Harvard prof…

  75. 75
    El Caganer says:

    And totally OT, appears that one of Chubs’ crew is ready to talk: http://news.msn.com/us/player-.....r-immunity

  76. 76
    Cassidy says:

    POLICE STATE! POLICE STATE! *ZOMG, WE’RE LIVING IN A POLICE STATE!

    *Please don’t pay attention to the real police states because then I just sound like a whiny, entitled suburbanite.

  77. 77

    Waaaaaaah! Not another post about McArdle! Why can’t you people ever write about something important?

    Oh. …. Carry on.

  78. 78
    ericblair says:

    @Belafon:

    Yep, that’s why I don’t hold out much hope. The best we can really do is elect the right people.

    You can fix a system to be more resistant to abuse, but you can’t make a system abuse-proof through technical means like a lot of the libertarians want to. At some level, you’ve got to rely on human judgment and respect for the law. If we get another Bush/Cheney in power, all this shit would go out the window and there’s nothing that a determined enough executive with a cowed legislature and judiciary couldn’t break.

  79. 79
    MikeJ says:

    @jonas:

    Customs, the FBI, and the CIA had all the pieces sitting in front of them, gathered using regular, old-fashioned collection tools.

    The problem is that the FBI is supposed to arrest people who are breaking the law. If the CIA finds out about a plot, the manner in which they find out may prevent it from being used as evidence. That may be because it would violate the defendant’s rights or it may be because they don’t want to talk about how they found out. Either way, cops have an extremely difficult time using info from spies.

  80. 80
    Yatsuno says:

    @Sarah, Proud and Tall: Indeed. It’s Fashion Week somewhere (Paris, I think) and some of the entries redefine godawful.

    Oh and hi dear. I’m calmly awaiting the arrival of my professional torturist, as we label them round these parts.

  81. 81
    Chris says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Wasn’t a huge B5 fan, but I loved the Psi Corps episodes. Love sci-fi shows, love spy shows, so when you combine the two… But that and Stargate are the only shows I’ve watched that delved into it.

  82. 82
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Cassidy: Which probably has more to do with Greenwald calling the speech a publicity stunt than anything actually in the speech.

  83. 83
    Cervantes says:

    @Davis X. Machina: The game was devised by a student at Harvard Law in the mid-50s.

  84. 84
    Cervantes says:

    @Soonergrunt: Most speeches are exercises in public relations.

  85. 85
    RareSanity says:

    @NonyNony:

    I don’t know, if you get enough smart people on it, they could figure something out.

    I like your idea of having data be encrypted where the “guards” don’t have the keys, but won’t allow the people with the keys access to the lock without court order. The data center could be financed by the government…but built, equipped, and maintained by a third party. That third party could be a “foundation” of some sort, that is operated by a board comprised of organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the ACLU, faculty members at Law Schools, Representatives of the Bar Association, etc. Just make certain rules for board membership that no former members of intelligence agencies, law enforcement, or elected officials could ever serve as members.

    Also, if you were to ever serve as a member, you agree to allow no less than 10 years to elapse before pursuing one of the jobs that would have kept you off the board, or face a hefty financial penalty…it’d be like a non-compete agreement in TV/radio.

    I would think that this would scare off the “fakers” trying to game the system, and the people that would agree, would be people that were generally interested in protecting the privacy of citizens.

  86. 86
    Chris says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Exactly. Give me the choice between “outside the government” and “part of the government” and I’ll take the latter every time. At least politicians get elected by the public.

  87. 87
    Cervantes says:

    @Sarah, Proud and Tall: Hey, would you by any chance be interested in a pair of lightly used goose denipplers?

  88. 88
    ericblair says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    Russia is a babe in a manger with regard to civil liberties, whereas we have supposedly been the leaders of the free World, at least on paper for a couple of centuries. It’s a cartoonish comparison, but not as starkly different from the US as some would like to think.

    This would hold more water if respect for civil liberties and democratic institutions in Russia hadn’t been going in full reverse over the last decade. It’s not like those poor backwards ex-commies just haven’t figured out the whole democracy thing yet. Russia prides itself on being a Power, not some hanger-on of the West, and isn’t interested in playing second fiddle to Western organizations.

  89. 89
    Cassidy says:

    @Soonergrunt: Greenwald’s whole career is nothing more than publicity stunts.

  90. 90
    NonyNony says:

    @ericblair:

    At some level, you’ve got to rely on human judgment and respect for the law. If we get another Bush/Cheney in power, all this shit would go out the window and there’s nothing that a determined enough executive with a cowed legislature and judiciary couldn’t break.

    I’m worried that we can’t actually even build a system where people with good judgment and respect for the law can operate in it without trampling on civil liberties. The incentives are all wrong – there is no incentive at all for looking out for civil liberties and very strong incentives to maximize whatever law enforcement can do to prevent terrorist attacks from being successful. Even with the best of intentions no executive and no legislature is going to voluntarily back off on doing things that are perceived at preventing another terrorist attack. Anyone who did so would be politically destroyed when the next successful terrorist attack was carried out, and would possibly be politically destroyed in the next election even without a successful attack.

    If there were as strong an incentive to look out for civil liberties as there is for maximizing anti-terrorism, then things would be different. I wish I saw some approach that would lead to those incentives changing, but barring some major changes in what the public at large really cares about, I don’t see those incentives changing at all anytime soon.

  91. 91
    Yatsuno says:

    @ericblair: Hell during Putin’s last election Russia refused to have third party monitors check the results, although considering how the Russian public loves their strongmen it probably wasn’t much of a necessity. It’s pretty much the way things were under Communism only the names have changed. And that’s not even touching the Pu$sy Riot arrests and the thousands of political prisoners sitting in Russian jails. Slave labour doesn’t create itself after all.

  92. 92
    🎂 Martin says:

    Obviously these are all lies. Why just a month ago the NSA stole everyones credit card information from Target.

  93. 93
    Belafon says:

    @lol: I doubt we’ll never know everything he took, in part because too many parties need for it to be secret. I am just getting tired of being able to read Americans statements to the effect that this is the most tyrannical leader ever. Really? Then what country are you posting from? Is the FBI at your door dragging you out as you type your final words?

  94. 94
    Cervantes says:

    @ericblair:

    This would hold more water if respect for civil liberties and democratic institutions in Russia hadn’t been going in full reverse over the last decade.

    Never mind Russia, it seems to me our own state/federal legislatures/executives have not been doing too well in terms of “respect for civil liberties and democratic institutions … over the last decade,” either.

    (Not disputing your broader point.)

  95. 95
    Ripley says:

    Greenwald Determined To Strike In The U.S.

  96. 96
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Belafon: This.

  97. 97
    kc says:

    @GRANDPA john:

    That’s good news.

  98. 98
    Yatsuno says:

    @Belafon:

    I am just getting tired of being able to read Americans statements to the effect that this is the most tyrannical leader ever

    Lemme guess: these are the same people who were totes protesting this under Dubya as well. Except there’s no evidence of their protests anywhere, but THEY WERE DOING IT DAMMIT!!! You’re just choosing to accept the oppression that is Nobummer!!! IMPEACH NAOW!!!

    And OT: in today’s HOOCODANODE???

  99. 99
    ericblair says:

    @Yatsuno:

    Hell during Putin’s last election Russia refused to have third party monitors check the results, although considering how the Russian public loves their strongmen it probably wasn’t much of a necessity.

    Yep. I’ve got family in Russia (you do too, I think?), and Putin is popular. To a lot of Russians, “democracy” means the Yeltsin days when everybody’s pension disappeared, the ruble went down the toilet, and Russia lost its international influence, so if that’s democracy then we don’t want none.

    @NonyNony:

    The incentives are all wrong – there is no incentive at all for looking out for civil liberties and very strong incentives to maximize whatever law enforcement can do to prevent terrorist attacks from being successful.

    I think this is true too, and why it’s going to take decades to unshit the bed that Bush and Cheney soiled. It’s very hard to ratchet the security state back.

  100. 100
    burnspbesq says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    To me, the big thing is that a court order be required to poke through people’s affairs.

    So Section 215 orders are now equivalent to search warrants? Works for me.

  101. 101
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Chris: @RareSanity: I suppose you could do something like the Fed, which is both inside and outside the federal government, but this seems unwieldy. All you really need is an agency of career civil servants rather than political appointees. Again, see the Consumer Product Safety Commission. I don’t think it’s a wonderful idea to charter something outside the government to guard the public interest. That’s just reinventing the basic principle of government.

  102. 102
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @🎂 Martin: Obvi. They kept talking about “targeting,” and then they proved their point.

  103. 103
    Yatsuno says:

    @ericblair: No Russian family. The Soviet Union was an interest of mine in high school (which got me a bit of unwarranted attention but that’s in the past) so I try to keep up on things there. Doesn’t mean I think Pravda lives up to their name now though. I have a lot of family in Canada though, mostly distant cousins.

  104. 104
    Tone In DC says:

    @Ripley:

    Greenwald Determined To Strike In The U.S.

    LULz.

    Early and often.

  105. 105
  106. 106
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Freedom Industries has filed Chapter 11 (sorry to go O/T).

  107. 107
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Yatsuno:
    It sounds a little too good to be true. By what magic has the contamination suddenly been removed from West Virginia’s water supply?

  108. 108
    Yatsuno says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Show of hands: who didn’t see this coming? Anyone? Bueller?

  109. 109
    burnspbesq says:

    @NonyNony:

    a regime of secret warrants granted by secret courts that nobody knows about

    In other words, the way the issuance of search warrants has worked in ordinary criminal investigations for as long as there have been search warrants.

    You do know that, don’t you?

    Search warrants are issued ex parte. You don’t find out about it until the cops show up to serve it. And your only remedy for defects in the warrant (whether it’s something as relatively trivial as transposing two digits in the address of the place to be searched, or as serious as the cops lying out of their asses in the affidavit that is used to show probable cause) is to move to suppress the illegally obtained evidence.

  110. 110
    MikeJ says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Freedom Industries has filed Chapter 11

    I’m sure Liberty, Inc will soon be there to take up the slack.

  111. 111
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Soonergrunt: Unhappy man stays unhappy and wants every day you live in the US to be unhappy. I sense a theme.

  112. 112
    RareSanity says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Do “regular” search warrants become a matter of public record after issuance?

    If so, I think you can see where I’m going in showing the huge difference between “regular” search warrants, and those issued by the FISA court. If not, I’ve learned something new, and that is almost equally as troubling.

  113. 113
    PaulW says:

    I’ll believe it when they use their metadata mining to make the City of Heroes MMO available as Open Source gaming.

    …what?

  114. 114
    Chyron HR says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    Russia is a babe in a manger with regard to civil liberties, so their rampant violations of civil liberties don’t count.

    I’d like my nothingburger medium, with shredded lettuce and mayo.

  115. 115
    Cassidy says:

    @taylormattd: There is nothing he can do to satisfy the pure, true progressives if this country. He could start changing things by executive fiat into a hippie’s wet dream and they’d still bitch.

  116. 116
    Zifnab25 says:

    Major changes are having some other entity (to be determined) hold bulk metadata instead of the government

    Oh thank goodness. I was worried the solution would be “pay a private company tons of money to invade my privacy”.

  117. 117
    Cassidy says:

    @Chyron HR: Would you like those fries to be disingenuous or simply stupid?

  118. 118
    gwangung says:

    @Zifnab25: Personally, I think the genie’s out of the bottle. Technical capabilities increase daily, and nothing can do can ever bring us back to bring us back to what we thought was private. Moreover, increasing technical advances will insure that steps we take today are already outdated.

    The debate should be over best safeguards we can manage, rather than perfect safeguards.

  119. 119
    muricafukyea says:

    For months and months glorified reddit poster muckymux went on and on arms flailing hair on fire about “oh noezzz…our privacy” blah blah yada yada.

    Now when reality hits him in the face where the President has looked at it objectively, spoken with all the relevant groups, and given a fact based response….he’s got NOTHING. No drama…because there never really was in reality. It was only people like Griftwald that tried to make it that way because that is how they earn a living.

    Muckymux doesn’t seen any drama to be milked or more likely, is not being egged on by others that are trolling them to make them think there is drama. So they would rather move on to the next shiny object because that is what they are all about. Little if anything to do with reality. All about trying to create clickbait.

    Therein is why have have less than zero respect for the people I have mentioned above. Simply because they have earned it!

  120. 120
    AxelFoley says:

    @Ben Franklin:

    For trolls like you and Greenwald? Sure.

  121. 121
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    The con has come to an end. Time to get the hell out of Dodge.

    Aruba, here we come!

  122. 122
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @muricafukyea:

    That’s a lot of derp. Did you have to dip into the reserves to post that?

  123. 123
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Well, it’s moved downstream. Eventually, it will hit Baton Rouge, and Bobby Jindal will help himself to a nice big glass of it to show that there is no danger to the water supply.

  124. 124
    Botsplainer says:

    @Cassidy:

    I find myself saddened that he didn’t announce the successful raid on the Miranda-Greenwald compound with footage of Greenwald whimpering about his rights as bullets rip into his body.

  125. 125
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Botsplainer:

    And people say I have unresolved anger issues!

    /grin, duck, and run like hell

  126. 126
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Botsplainer: I don’t want to see Greenwald killed.
    I do want to see him pay his fucking taxes. That’s what a great deal of this is about. He didn’t give much of a shit one way or the other about government overreach–was one of GW Bush’s biggest cheerleaders, in fact–until he got in trouble for tax evasion.

  127. 127
    burnspbesq says:

    @RareSanity:

    Do “regular” search warrants become a matter of public record after issuance?

    Not all the time. But if there is a criminal case that develops, and the defendant moves to suppress any evidence that was obtained in the search or as a result of the search, the warrant application is highly likely to end up in the record.

  128. 128
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Soonergrunt: I’m no Greenwald fan, and for all I know, he is a dastardly tax evader in addition to being a tiresome polemicist. But it’s not true that he didn’t bitch about the NSA when Bush was president. He was howling about it incessantly before most of us had ever heard of Barack Obama.

  129. 129
    Keith G says:

    Some of these proposals seem a bit light, but it’s a start. The real question is how much of Obama’s skin is he willing to put into the process of bringing these into reality. Anyone can propose that we send a manned mission to Mars (for example) the question becomes, as president what are you willing to do to make it happen?

  130. 130
    RareSanity says:

    @burnspbesq:

    I know that most of the time you get a bad rap for just trying explaining the law in your comments…although you are also known to throw a bit of “prick” on top of it…but I do appreciate the information you provide.

    In this case, the problem most people have with the FISA court is that the only people that actually know how it works, can’t talk about it unless you have a top secret security clearance.

    People just know that there’s something inherently wrong with intrusting that kind of power, where only an extremely small group of people actually know what the hell is going on. If people actually had more information, it might help to quell a lot of the anxiety and conspiracy theories.

    Basically, the government needs to get its’ shit together and become more discerning on what information actually pertains to national security, and what information doesn’t. The information that doesn’t, release it, and hold on to the information that does. If it didn’t feel like they were trying to hold on to so much, the populace might not be so paranoid about what it was they were trying to hold on to.

    Know what I mean?

  131. 131
    LanceThruster says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    That “F#ck & Run” business model really, really works!

  132. 132
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Betty Cracker: But he didn’t give a shit about the NSA (or any other government overreach) until he skipped the country to avoid paying his taxes. Up until then, he was a huge cheerleader for Bush’s war in Iraq.

  133. 133
    Liberty60 says:

    @jonas:
    I read somewhere that the Stasi had a file on virtually every single man, woman, and child in East Germany.
    And yet, when the wall fell, no one was more surprised by the people’s reaction than the Stasi.
    They had plenty of data, the story goes, but had no culture by which they could honestly examine or interpret it.

    I don’t know if this is anecdotal, but it sounds like what we already know about bureaucratic regiems- they slowly devolve into sycophancy, careerism, and turf hoarding.

    Whether its screwups by FEMA, Forestry Service, Social Security, or any other agency, the lack of data is almost never the real problem- but it is always the first excuse.

    Given the horror stories about the no-fly list, and wrong addresses in drug raids, I don’t think that giving the NSA/FBI/CIAMayberry PD will result in a better outcome for national security.

  134. 134
    Yatsuno says:

    @Soonergrunt: And here I was thinking it was twoo wuv. It’s kind of a nice thought that he has his own personal revenue officer just waiting for him to set foot back in the US. Of course that will never happen since he has a few questions to answer regarding the Snowden affair.

  135. 135
    Mart says:

    Seems strange to me so many of this community are all in on a duplicate agency that costs us $60 billion a year, results in worldwide contempt for us, and has NOTHING to show for its efforts; other than Greenwald and Snowden are douches.

  136. 136
    🎂 Martin says:

    @Mart: It has quite a lot to show for its efforts. But it’s not recognized as such or its dismissed by some. Terrorism isn’t all that sigint does. Its also heavily involved in Afghanistan, in situations such as hostage taking off the Horn of Africa, in monitoring nations like Iran and North Korea. In fact, its much more of that kind of stuff than sniffing everyone’s phone number.

  137. 137
    Cassidy says:

    @Keith G: As I said in comment #4. Predictable is an understatement.

  138. 138
    Yatsuno says:

    Holy fuck Sippy Cup. Way to fucking trivialize the Holocaust with a horrible throwaway line. Some CNN editor got some splainin’ to do there.

  139. 139
    Cassidy says:

    @Botsplainer: I don’t need anyone to die. I would like to see some people answer questions as to whether laws were broken. I’d like to see them stand trial in front of a jury if their peers. I’d like to see Assange answer questions about the alleged sexual assault. Nothing crazy.

  140. 140
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @Mart: That’s the whole point. Virtually all of it has to do with being against Greenwald and Snowden, not defending the NSA, which as you say makes little sense. And course the reason for being against anything Greenwald advocates (including Snowden) is that Greenwald is critical of Obama. Or more broadly, the notion that being highly critical of the NSA with Obama as President is being critical of Obama, and thus forbidden.

    What makes it funny is when Obama himself starts admitting that Snowden revealed some important problems, to the point where he’s proposing fixes, making Obama less of an Obot than some of his defenders are.

  141. 141
    Keith G says:

    @Mart: I think it’s more a matter , “If it’s happening during this president watch it might be okay.” That is in tandem with the notion that if someone is complaining about actions taken during this presidency, they must have the worst of intentions. Hence the mentions of Greenwald and Snowden even if their names really aren’t germane to this thread.

  142. 142
    Keith G says:

    @Cassidy: Actually what you said at 4 made little sense. Something about bully pulpit? Let me know when you have it figured out.

  143. 143
    Cassidy says:

    @Keith G: Like I said, predictable.

  144. 144
    Mart says:

    @🎂 Martin: Yes, thanks to NSA, we know where the terrorists are. To the north, the east, the south and the west.

  145. 145
    Keith G says:

    @Cassidy: As in the the wonder that is the rising Sun?

  146. 146
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Chyron HR:

    I’d like my nothingburger medium, with shredded lettuce and mayo.

    That’s what I like about freedumb. I can also haz either paper or plastic bags at the supermarket. That alone gives the US an edge over Russia.

  147. 147
    gwangung says:

    @Mart: This is a particularly glib remark.

    I’ll keep that in mind for my next play.

  148. 148
    lol says:

    @Mart:

    You do certainly sum up the glibertarian world view with respect to foreign affairs. If we pretend we don’t have any enemies, we won’t have any!

  149. 149
    Ben Franklin says:

    @gwangung:

    I suspected you were here just to glean smart-ass comments for re-publication. You’ve come to the right place as they can be found NSE and W.

  150. 150
    kc says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Awkward . . .

  151. 151
    Mart says:

    @lol: That line worked for Rumsfeld, was he a glibertarian too?

  152. 152
    Cassidy says:

    @kc: Awkward as in you didn’t read the reply?

  153. 153
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Yatsuno:

    Sippy Cupp could really use a long “resettlement to the east” train ride, if you ask me.

  154. 154
    Ghayduke (formerly lojasmo) says:

    @Keith G:

    “actually what you said at has take 4 made little sense. ”

    Que?

  155. 155
    Cassidy says:

    @Ghayduke (formerly lojasmo): I was gonna let it go. It’s right up there with his “just words” comment.

  156. 156
    Corner Stone says:

    @Soonergrunt: I am really interested to see your sourcing on this.

  157. 157
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Urban legends have their own sourcing and it’s more than enough if you have your eyes properly focused on the facts that matter.

  158. 158
    Corner Stone says:

    @Ben Franklin: Well, anyone can make any claim here. But beyond aimai and now Soonergrunt, it’s typical to provide at least an Ole at some type of BS linkage.
    I personally expect to see something from LittleGreenFootballs.

  159. 159
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Corner Stone: Here you go.

    The New York County Clerk’s office shows Greenwald has $126,000 in open judgments and liens against him dating to 2000, including a $21,000 from the state Tax Department and the city Department of Finance.
    There’s no record of those debts being paid, but Greenwald said he believes he’s all caught up — although he’s still trying to pay down an old IRS judgment against him from his lawyer days.
    Records show the IRS has an $85,000 lien against him.
    Greenwald lives in Rio, because that’s where his boyfriend is. His tax problems didn’t drive him away.
    “We’re negotiating over payment plans,” he said.

  160. 160
    different-church-lady says:

    @Cervantes: That is idiotic: the nipples are a delicacy.

  161. 161
    Ned Ludd says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim: I don’t know why this is so hard to figure out.

    The following two propositions are NOT mutually exclusive:

    1) The NSA is abusive and out of control.
    2) Snowden (and perhaps Greenwald) is a ratfucking provocateur and/or paid Russian/Chinese spy.

    The real world can be complicated, dude.

  162. 162
    Cervantes says:

    @Bill Arnold: Yes.

  163. 163
    different-church-lady says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim:

    And course the reason for being against anything Greenwald advocates (including Snowden) is that Greenwald is critical of Obama.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I thought Greenwald was nuts years before Obama took office.

  164. 164
    Corner Stone says:

    @Soonergrunt: Wow.

  165. 165
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mart:

    Yes, thanks to NSA, we know where the terrorists are. To the north, the east, the south and the west.

    And amusingly, every objective study to this point has concluded that this overly massive dragnet strangling 4th amendment donkeypunching data collection has concluded that, No, actually. This shit hasn’t helped anybody do anything.

  166. 166
    Corner Stone says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim:

    Or more broadly, the notion that being highly critical of the NSA with Obama as President is being critical of Obama, and thus forbidden.

    I hadn’t noticed this.

  167. 167
    Cervantes says:

    @taylormattd:

    My favorite part is that Obama is following, in very large part, the recommendations of his NSA panel. At the time the panel recommendations were released, here is what Greenwald applauded them. He now says, however, that Obama is “keeping everything the same”.

    Are you sure about this? Do you have even the vaguest idea which came first, the quote from Greenwald or today’s announcement by the President?

    Extra credit question: What was Greenwald actually responding to?

  168. 168
    Cervantes says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim:

    What makes it funny is when Obama himself starts admitting that Snowden revealed some important problems, to the point where he’s proposing fixes, making Obama less of an Obot than some of his defenders are.

    Yes, and with “defenders” like these, who needs clowns?

  169. 169
    Corner Stone says:

    @taylormattd: No links? No sourcing?

  170. 170
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cervantes:

    who needs clowns?

    Birthday parties for 6 year olds?

  171. 171
    Cervantes says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Birthday parties for 6 year olds?

    That’s what some of these NSA threads become, you’re right.

  172. 172
    Corner Stone says:

    When Obama said, “enhanced interrogation techniques”…
    My soul made a serious sad face.

  173. 173
    Corner Stone says:

    “I wouldn’t have put any of these reforms in place, but having said that, I think they are the minimum of what he had to do, especially considering his base and where he’s coming from,” King said, pointing to the limits on tracing secondary and tertiary phone numbers. “I don’t know what the constitutional or statutory reason for that is, why two is safer than three, but again, I think that was a way to calm down the ACLU types. That just seemed to me like a cosmetic compromise.”

  174. 174
    Mart says:

    If Snowden is a traitor and friend of terrorists and commies everywhere, why is Obama changing NSA policies in response to his revelations? I thought the USA never negotiates with terrorists… (Yes I am working on being Glib, and it is fun.)

    I might think it glib to say we are a nation in perpetual war, and fighting muslims in seven or so countries requires that the NSA should do anything it wants with no oversight. We the people paying for this in lives and treasure should accept this as the new normal without push-back. To be concerned about the constant wars and abusive NSA means you hate Obama and America; and want the commie loving Snowden and dirty gay porn tax cheat Greenwald to win.

    Esquire’s Pierce linked to the article below (sorry not good at linking). Clearly the good Obama is doing things totally different from the odious Bush Admin:

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/gregor.....f-the-most

  175. 175
    JoyfulA says:

    @RareSanity: I was thinking along the lines of ACLU people. Your comments in the same general direction are much better thought out and extended.

    (Thanks! Now I can stop thinking. You’ve done it all.)

  176. 176
    Cassidy says:

    Oh how hard it must be to be the pure, true anonymous liberals of the blogosphere carrying the burden if truthiness. How heavy us the crown indeed.

  177. 177
    taylormattd says:

    @Cervantes: That is *literally* a quote, a directly quote, from Greenwald’s twitter, in response to Obama’s announcement.

    But keep fuckin’ that chicken buddy.

  178. 178
    Corner Stone says:

    @taylormattd: I have a “literal” quote from you saying that fucking chickens brought you great joy.
    I’ll post a link to that statement shortly.

  179. 179
    taylormattd says:

    @Corner Stone: You are a fucking retard. Go post in your savior, Anne Laurie’s threads, where she will defend you from the likes of ABL.

    Here is your link moron: http://banter.wpengine.netdna-.....ma_nsa.jpg

  180. 180
    taylormattd says:

    @Corner Stone: You are a fucking retard. Go post in your savior, Anne Laurie’s threads, where she will defend you from the likes of ABL.

    Here is your link moron: http://banter.wpengine.netdna-.....ma_nsa.jpg

  181. 181
    taylormattd says:

    I mean, are you pretending you don’t know how to look at Greenwald’s fucking twitter?

  182. 182
    Corner Stone says:

    @taylormattd: Who is ABL? Some imaginary agonist of your mental deficiency? You sound a little addled.

  183. 183
    Corner Stone says:

    @taylormattd: Your link doesn’t do anything for your case. You seem stupid.

  184. 184
    taylormattd says:

    @Corner Stone: You are a fucking moron. You asked for a link to Greenwald saying Obama was keeping everything the same, and I gave it to you.

  185. 185
    Cassidy says:

    @taylormattd: He’s probably drunk.

  186. 186
    Corner Stone says:

    @taylormattd: Here is what you said. Not me, you:
    “At the time the panel recommendations were released, here is what Greenwald applauded them.”
    Ok. Where is the link to that? We know Greenwald doesn’t much care for the announcements today. Neither do the ACLU nor a few other people/groups. You made a contrast/compare statement. Which somehow made someone something or something else.
    Let’s see what you’re claiming.

  187. 187
    Bill Arnold says:

    @Bill Arnold:
    [copied from a comment to kevin drum’s post]
    Re the change in the number of hops (from 3 to 2) that are allowed, this is in the speech:

    Effective immediately, we will only pursue phone calls that are two steps removed from a number associated with a terrorist organization, instead of the current three, and I have directed the attorney general to work with the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court so that during this transition period, the database can be queried only after a judicial finding or in the case of a true emergency.

    I’m reading this as no significant changes to search extension procedures. If it is also easier to deepen the search then the change’s significance depends on how much easier. (Aggressive search extensions on a base 2 step search could mean more numbers searched.) Just noting this, since it is the NSA we’re talking about.

  188. 188
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: IIRC Greenwald said that the NSA recommendations amounted to a vindication of Snowden. I don’t recall him saying anything about the substance of the recommendations.

  189. 189
    Cervantes says:

    @taylormattd:

    That is *literally* a quote, a directly quote, from Greenwald’s twitter,

    So far you’re right.

    in response to Obama’s announcement.

    That’s where you’re wrong.

    But keep fuckin’ that chicken buddy.

    Quite.

  190. 190
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: taylormattd is making a specific argument. One based on a hypocritical compare/contrast set of statements. S/he wants us to take Greenwald’s dismissal today as definitive of that true argument. But with no links. Just calling people morons for not reading the last 24 hours of a twitter feed.
    People here keep making claims. I guess it’s the new new, new thing.

  191. 191
    Cervantes says:

    @taylormattd:

    You are a fucking retard. Go post in your savior, Anne Laurie’s threads, where she will defend you from the likes of ABL.

    Yes, of course. I’m sure Corner Stone is hanging on your every word. Might even subscribe to your newsletter.

    Here is your link moron: http://banter.wpengine.netdna-…..ma_nsa.jpg

    Did you happen to notice the absence of a date? And why do you think Kevin Drum is mentioned?

    Also, do you know what the word “moron” really means?

  192. 192
    mclaren says:

    Unfortunately, the full text of Obama’s NSA speech has now been heavily redacted.

    The good news is that the three branches of government continue to function: the CIA, the DHS, and the NSA.

  193. 193
    Vlad says:

    Less bad than the status quo, but still not good enough, IMO.

    Oh, well.

Comments are closed.