Wednesday Morning Open Thread: DAY-o!

(h/t commentor Emily 68)

Marc Tracy at TNR has a hopeful argument on why “There is no Democratic Roger Ailes”:

[W]hat the demographic data makes clear is that, even if a left-leaning programming genius were to emerge, it’s unlikely any network could have the same pull with Democrats. The groups that tend to vote for liberal candidates get their news from a more diffuse set of platforms—there’s cable, sure, but also social media, national papers, and a constellation of websites. While one-fifth of Republicans cited Fox News as their main source, CNN won first-place among Democrats with just one-tenth. Being on the whole younger, Democrats are less likely to go in for traditional platforms: 28 percent of those 18-29 rely solely on digital platforms, and it is only among those 50 and over that news engagement with digital platforms falls off a cliff. Black people, a prominent Democratic-leaning minority, use Twitter more than white people, according to Pew.

Maybe the lack of a liberal Ailes is a sign—and a guarantor—of vitality, though. Fox News caters to, reflects, and you might say represents a group of predominantly old white people. There are enough such people to ensure the continued success of Ailes-style management and journalism. But there are not enough to enable Fox News to change substantially the political direction of the entire country, particularly in the face of growing forces trying to push the country in the opposite direction. In fact, by presenting this group of voters an inaccurate vision of the country, Ailes is probably lulling them into a false sense of complacency (this he does, ironically, by appealing to delusions of victimhood)….

Democratic cat-herding — it’s a feature, not a bug! Apart from cherishing our own probably-false sense of complacency, what’s on the agenda for the day?

112 replies
  1. 1
    Tommy says:

    I think that analysis is spot on. For years before the Internet was what it is today I walked into work in the 90s and the Washington Post, New York Times, and Wall Street Journal were on my desk. I read them all daily. Where I got my news. And for years the first sites I visited on the Internet. But more than a decade ago that changed. I’d head to Think Progress, Talking Points Memo. Daily Kos. Media Matters. Any number of “liberal” sites. I might have like 50 news sites bookmarked and the Washington Post, New York Times, and Wall Street Journal are not included.

    Sure I will link over to them from a site like this, but not something I even go to for news at this point.

    Heck most days I can’t even stomach MSNBC. I love their weekend morning lineup. Sure I love Chris Hayes and Rachel, but I can’t see how there is any chance there will be a Democratic Roger Ailes. I mean Gore tried that didn’t he? Look us liberals are a strange and diverse bunch. One size does not fit all.

  2. 2
    Baud says:

    I get all my news from Balloon Juice. You are my Roger Ailes, AL.

  3. 3
    Tommy says:

    Lets see if I can explain myself. I am almost jealous of the “tea party.” That they hold their party to a standard. I live in a blue state. A very blue district. Heck there is zero chance a Republican can get elected here. But if you moved the folks we elect here to say San Fran, New York City, or Vermont, they would appear as moderate Republicans.Total “Blue Dogs.” But I hold my nose and vote for them, cause well I can’t vote for the Republican. And I vote in every election. Not voting is not an option.

    I wonder if my party understands me. That I vote. I always vote. That I work for campaigns. I am that “foot solider.” But I wonder if they understand that in my entire adult life (I am 44) not a single person I voted for in the Presidental primary ever got the nod.

    Why I kind of like what the “tea party” does. I am just sitting over here saying how about me? Makes me wonder how much longer my party will belittle the things I think and that I vote for. I mean my local rep was against same sex marriage and even rails against the Affordable Care Act. He came around on each, cause he is a first term guy and I guess they put the screws to him, but that he wasn’t out yelling for these things amazes me.

  4. 4
    Monty says:


    Herding Cats.

    Mastering the game and weathering the storms – a riveting and candid memoir from one of washington’s true insiders For more than thirty years, Trent Lott of Mississippi has been one of the dominant figures in American political life. From the moment he was elected to the House of Representatives in 1972, he has been a leader in the conservative movement that has changed the course of the nation. From his years in Congress to his ascent to majority leader of the Senate – and his decision to leave that post in the heat of controversy – Herding Cats is the frank and revealing chronicle of a unique political life. Marked by the same straight-talking style and good humor he has shown throughout his career in public service, Trent Lott’s Herding Cats is the memoir of a true master of American political life.

    For the lulz.

  5. 5
    Baud says:


    I don’t understand your criticism. You say your district isn’t that progressive, but you’re upset that your rep isn’t that progressive?

  6. 6
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Putting the finishing touches on the taping of that house I’m building (actually a room addition that more than doubles the size of the house, easier, and more accurate to say, “building a house”). After that I will replace the last 4 windows and then the trim and finish package is all that will be left for it.

    My Jeffco buddy and his wife finalized the contract on that 1860’s farm they were looking at. We go do inspections on Saturday after which it will be my job to try and talk them out of it. At least, I think that will be my job. Dog knows if they buy it, I will not hurt for lack of work.

    Major media outlets? The Guardian, NPR.

  7. 7
    Dolly Llama says:

    I’m going to hear the President speak today in person at N.C. State. First time ever being in the same room with a POTUS.

  8. 8
    bjacques says:

    A single dominant figure like Ailes looks attractive, at least if he’s on your side. As a news source, the dominant figure can become a single point of failure. Ailes’s audience has been following him down one blind alley after the next; racing into the tunnel opening painted onto a boulder and wondering why they keep waking up with headaches.

    Browsing different news sources is a sign of curiosity and critical thinking, both of which you need to figure out what’s really going on.

  9. 9
    Tommy says:

    @Baud: Well I am pretty sure we could run a more liberal guy/gal and they would win. I just dislike we run moderate, middle of the road folks.

    My current rep is a two star general. Ran the IL National Guard. A “tea party” guy ran against him and attacked, I kid you not, his military service. The largest voting block in my district is a military base! That didn’t work so well.

    I just want more liberals. I am sick and tired of voting for middle of the road politicians.

  10. 10
    Schlemizel says:

    I believe he is saying that he admires the way the teabaggers have forced the GOP to the right & wishes we could perform the same sort of function in pulling the Dems leftward. Me too, up to the point that loons start winning primaries & losing general elections because they are loons.

    I’d temper the notion that FAUX News hasn’t changed the the direction of the country. In concert with the rest of the mighty Wurlitzer (really first chair and Concert Master) they have promoted a lot of really bad ideas into the mainstream and suppressed a lot of good ideas. They have given the goopers and the Koch suckers not just a platform but the appearance of legitimacy that can and does ignore science and reality to further their agenda. They can drown out alternatives and eliminate real debate. They are a cancer on the nation and thinking they wont kill us because they are not the majority is ignoring what they have already done.

  11. 11
    Baud says:


    I see. I also wish the Democratic Party were more liberal, but I see no chance in replicating what the tea pararty did to the Republicans. Neither Democrats nor liberals have the necessary attributes to use those methods successfully.

  12. 12
    sparrow says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Cool! I helped build houses for habitat and it was a ton of fun. I’m a scientist now, but my mom loves to tell the story of when I was about 7 and someone asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I said “a construction worker!” (she tried to parlay that into “architect”, but I didn’t even know what that was). Pictures of your house would be cool.

  13. 13
  14. 14
    Baud says:


    I am sick and tired of voting for middle of the road politicians

    I understand. But most Dems, by definition, have the same problem. There will always be only a few liberal leaders in Congress. Most will fall in the middle of the bell curve.

  15. 15
    Tommy says:


    I believe he is saying that he admires the way the teabaggers have forced the GOP to the right & wishes we could perform the same sort of function in pulling the Dems leftward. Me too, up to the point that loons start winning primaries & losing general elections because they are loons.

    Yes, yes,yes.

    I don’t want to promote far left folks that can’t win an election. I mean many issues I felt strongly about, like same sex marriage, pot, well I just had to wait a decade or so and public opinion came my way. For many issues I don’t have to “force” my views on others.

    Pubic opinion is on my side. Things like minimum wage, sane gun laws, unions, universal healthcare, you know things that actually impact the lives of others.

    My rep isn’t promoting these things. He should. It is a clear win for him.

  16. 16
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Tommy: You should try trading places with me. ;-) Around here, the 1840s were considered “progressive.”

  17. 17
    Chet says:

    I am en route from NJ to Baltimore for a conference. At Newark Penn at 4:30 this morning Day-O was playing on the PA system. My kids and I just discovered that YouTube and we’ve been playing it a lot lately.

  18. 18
    Baud says:


    Things like minimum wage, sane gun laws, unions, universal healthcare, you know things that actually impact the lives of others.

    Aside from the minimum wage, the other things in your list don’t seem like the type of things that a Blue Dog district would go for.

    I agree, though, that if these things would sell, it’s a shame that your rep isn’t pushing them.

  19. 19
    Baud says:


    Martin Van Buren sold us out!

  20. 20
    Schlemizel says:

    @Tommy: Pubic opinion is on my side. Things like minimum wage, sane gun laws, unions, universal healthcare, you know things that actually impact the lives of others.

    Exactly, and exactly where the FAUX News damage is done. Every Congressional office has cable news on all day long, the goopers tend to have FAUX and the Dems have the wannabee, CNN. So all day long they are hearing the America believes ACA is communism and gun control impossible and unions are hurting companies and the minimum wage destroys jobs. FAUX and friends convince enough mouth-breathing trogs that these things are true and the discussion is over before it starts. We like to call it the Overton window around here.

    We need Dems with the optional backbone installed but they seem to be few and far between

  21. 21
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @sparrow: The one I am talking about is a house I am building for some long time friends for them to retire in. Been working on it off and on since last December and began the room addition in August. We’re still friends so I must be doing something right. My house is actually a log cabin I renovated when we bought it 3+ years ago and I continue to refine it. My wife says I can’t die until it is finished, and seeing as it will never be finished I guess I will live forever.

  22. 22
    Schlemizel says:


    Funny but I heard Harry Truman talk about the guys who came just before Lincoln as “the little five” and detail how their work and words led directly to the Civil War. He had specific incidences and alternatives, it was fascinating to listen to. He probably would have agreed with you!

  23. 23
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Schlemizel: What we need is more Elizabeth Warrens.

  24. 24
    kindness says:

    It is curious that right wingers are so clueless as to not know their next door neighbors. I blame Fox. Says it right in their own damn study.

    Careful what you wish for. Fox has dumbed conservatives down. With their repetition of the days anger points it’s led to a spoon fed tea party.

  25. 25
    Tommy says:

    @Baud: Lets take unions. In my little rural district we actually still have picket lines. Nobody I know will cross one. Nobody.

    Lets go with gun control. I work so in my free time I can play video games or post here. Folks I know work so they can hunt and fish. Everybody has a lot of guns. Yet the Supreme Court had to force a conceal carry permit on my state. I don’t know anybody that wants to carry a fire arm into a movie theater or grocery store. I mean there is just no point to it.

    Health care, well universal is another thing. As I mentioned the largest employer in my area is a military base. Lots of vets here. They freaking love the VA. Flat out love the service they get. I often talk to vets and they will openly agree they wish others had what they have. Bascially universal healthcare.

    Again I say all of this cause these are what I’d call core liberal issues, and well those in my district when I talk with them, agree. I can’t believe it is impossible to elect somebody that promotes these ideas.

  26. 26

    I’m beginning to see a pattern in the federal courts ruling, most recently in Utah and Oklahoma, that the judges are saying that states cannot stomp all over someone’s rights just because they think gays are icky.

  27. 27
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Yes he did. And the Missouri Compromise taught the Tea Partiers to hate the very idea of compromise.

  28. 28
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mustang Bobby: Soon enough Kennedy will be saying “Oh, yes you can.” I hope I am wrong and Scalia will be saying, “This is the end of Morality.”

  29. 29
    Tommy says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: LOL. I mean I am not that far from where you live. In many ways things are pretty good here in rural Illinois. We do things that would stun folks. My town of 5,500 people has in the last three years built a $60M high school and a $20M primary school.

    We filled out some paperwork and got $750,000 from the Recovery Act to wire all the public buildings with fiber optics. I literally have a fiber backbone in my town. We are looking to wire all businesses and then homes.

    Heck we get our power through a co-op of small towns. They told us we needed to upgrade our infrastructure, so we didn’t bitch and moan, we rewired almost the entire town in four months. If I took pics of the power lines we now have in town they look like something from the future.

    My favorite story is this. You can’t walk a few blocks in any direction and not see a park. I’d call them “green” spaces but that is a liberal term we don’t use. We voted to raise our taxes to buy buildings that were falling down, tore them down, and built parks. Paid local artist to well, create art.

    Oh I should note I said my town had 5,500 folks. That was in 2000. In 2010 we had 8,700. People want to come live where I live.

    So I can bitch we don’t elect more “liberal” folks, but alas things are running pretty well.

  30. 30
    WereBear says:

    Fortunately, cranky bigoted old white people are a dwindling resource.

    I take heart from the fact that their viewership is so old. They aren’t making any converts. They simply channeled the lowest common denominator.

  31. 31
    MikeJ says:


    What we need is more Elizabeth Warrens.

    I have a strong suspicion that had Hillary won the ’08 primary we’d be demanding more good liberals like Obama. Had he never had to actually govern as president, he could have been far, far more liberal and held on to his seat in Illinois forever.

  32. 32
    sparrow says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: So is that your main employment? I would guess so because it sounds like a lot of work. I’m kind of jealous. :) I convinced my boyfriend to buy a 100-year old apartment in a beautiful building, and he is non-plussed that we are going to be living in a construction zone for a few years. But it WILL be amazing…

  33. 33
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Dolly Llama: I heard Obama speak right after he won the Dem primary. He is indeed a gifted politician and speaker, and it’s more apparent when you hear him in person and see how the crowd reacts. Have fun!

  34. 34
    Tommy says:

    @MikeJ: I give Obama a pass on many levels. My gut is when you get elected President you think you can do this or that. Then you realize well it isn’t that easy. Running a campaign to be President and then being President are not the same things.

    I think of my father who worked at high levels within the DoD. He wanted to change a lot of stuff, but alas never really did. I think folks forget that a President is in office for 4 or 8 years. He is often working with high level Civil Service folks that have been at their jobs for decades. They were there before Obama took office. They will be there after he leaves office.

    They have their own agenda and often it is different then that of the person in the White House.

    Just saying ….

  35. 35

    @OzarkHillbilly: Well, we’ll see about Kennedy. He was the one who wrote the opinion in Romer v. Evans saying “Its sheer breadth is so discontinuous with the reasons offered for it that the amendment seems inexplicable by anything but animus toward the class that it affects; it lacks a rational relationship to legitimate state interests.”

  36. 36
    Tommy says:

    @Betty Cracker: I kind of like the guy. I’ve seen him speak a few times. I went up to Springfield to watch him announce he was running. Heck he came “downstate” here in IL when he was running for the Senate and rock my little town. I mean he was a total rock star.

    But I also went across the river to see him in St. Louis. And this happened:

    This was the middle of a work week and nobody thought maybe 100,000 people would show up. I was late getting there and as I walked off the Metro I was stunned. How could this be? It brought tears to my eyes.

  37. 37
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    We filled out some paperwork and got $750,000 from the Recovery Act to wire all the public buildings with fiber optics.

    Heh. Last year Show Me Power ran fiber optics right past my house, one big loop all thru SE MO ending in Sullivan. My wife was very excited. She might be able to work from home. I looked it up on the internet and it was supposed to be up and running in March. In Feb, I tried to get a status update. Disappeared from the web site. I made phone calls. Nobody knew WTF I was talking about.

    Progress is a black hole in S. MO.

    I have several friends who live on that side of the river and your right about IL people. They don’t get really conservative until you get down around the Shawnee Forest.

  38. 38
    debbie says:


    I also wish the Democratic Party were more liberal, but I see no chance in replicating what the tea parrty did to the Republicans.

    Is that such a bad thing? I don’t think it’s possible anyway because liberals are more interested in exchanging ideas with each other, while Republicans focus on imposing them on others.

  39. 39
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @sparrow: Yes. I was a long time Union Carpenter until a year and a half ago when the pain just got to be too much and I had to take my out card. Now I just do a little on the side from time to time. Working for friends who aren’t in a big hurry allows me to take it easy on the old bones when necessary.

    You guys will get a lot of satisfaction out of turning your apartment into your home. I always enjoyed construction, the act of building gives a sense of satisfaction that many are unable to get from their daily jobs. But when I started working on our place? Making it everything we want it to be? Yeah…

  40. 40
    WereBear says:

    I see it as a self-limiting phenomena… not that it hasn’t arisen before, and not that it won’t again. But it seems to be a reliable side-effect of Progress.

    People steal power and money from oppressed minority. The oppressed rise up and manage to get it back. The ones who lost power pitch a fit, because they still have plenty, there’s a backlash.

    But Progress happens. It just ain’t pretty.

    The Faux News and the Nixon apologists and the hatefilled bigots had quite a time fighting a rear-guard action, but that is because they lost.

    And they know that, and it drives them even crazier. Because these are damaged people who refuse to do anything about getting better.

    There’s nothing you can do with people like that except create a system that marginalizes them. Which we are in the process of doing… again.

  41. 41
    NotMax says:


    My wife says I can’t die until it is finished, and seeing as it will never be finished I guess I will live forever.

    Paging Mrs. Winchester…

  42. 42
    Suffern ACE says:

    @debbie: at some point, liberals are going to have to be comfortable imposing their ideas on others or we will end where we are now. “everybody knows ‘problem X’ needs to be solved but it will hurt someone or look bad to solve it” so problem X never goes away. We’ll end up living in conservative paradise that way.

  43. 43
    Baud says:


    Speak for yourself. I want to impose our ideas on everyone. Our ideas are awesome.

  44. 44
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @NotMax: THAT house is one I definitely want to see.

  45. 45
    Sly says:

    In 50 years, on whatever social platform is prevalent, one Democrat will say to another Democrat how the current Democratic occupant of the White House is a sell-out and both will look back fondly on the good old days, when the United States had real progressive Presidents like Barack Obama.

    If it can happen for Lyndon Johnson….

  46. 46

    The Missouri General Assembly is in session. And, of course, there’s a significant number of really important issues addressed in the bills coming from the veto proof republican majority in the House, including the right to rodeo: HB 1391: send in the clowns

    I can’t wait to read the details. Maybe something about the right to wear a mask in a rodeo arena at the state fair without being filmed or photographed while doing so is in order.

  47. 47
    Belafon says:

    Destruction is easier than construction, and the Democrats are like builders that would try to build every floor of a 100 story building at the same time.

  48. 48
    Tommy says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: That sucks. The best thing my town ever did was hire a professional City Manager. He has like more power then God. He can pretty much do anything he wants. Normally I’d be against something like this, since he isn’t elected, but alas he seems to always make amazing decisions that nobody can argue with.

    Heck it came out a few years ago he was a liberal, nobody knew his political leaning, and the Mayor fired him. In the next elected we voted 83% to be able to recall our local elected leaders …. and he was told to rehire him. He did.

    There is a story I like to tell. My town has been running huge budget surpluses. So we are using some of that to pay local artist to, wel create art. The local hardware store has been there since 1842. Sits next to City Hall and a huge parking lot. Where we have our Farmers Market. Chili cook off. Kind of the “hub” of the town.

    One of its walls is all brick. Like 200 feet by 40 feet. We paid this lady to paint a huge mural on it. She is a total Georgia O’Keeffe knock-off. I have never had the heart, when I am downtown and folks marvel at that flower, it is actually a 200×40 foot vagina. Oh if people knew where that money went :)!

  49. 49
    gene108 says:

    what’s on the agenda for the day?

    Waiting for my nephrologist’s office to call, so I can go in and see them. Have had a lot of pain in my side starting Monday evening and running through today, plus I’m running a fever per my home thermometer.

  50. 50
    big ole hound says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Built houses from start to finish as a small (3 men) contractor and loved it. When you’re finished at the end of the day and sit back to look at your work and have a cold one the feeling is “you can tell I’ve been here today”. Not many lines of work contain that satisfaction level. I can drive through town and point out or remember that I built that house 40 or 50 years ago and it is not outdated and still being used. I never doubt my sense of accomplishment.

  51. 51
    MomSense says:


    Oh no! Sending good thoughts your way that you feel much better.

  52. 52
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @big ole hound: A buddy of mine up in St Lou is a small contractor. Some years ago he built a house in Warson Woods. Last year a tornado went right thru the heart of WW, absolutely DESTROYED that neighborhood. My buddy drove by to see what was left of the house. All around, nothing but bare foundations and toothpicks. And The House That Henry Built. The 100 year old oak in back? Gone. The big old spruce in front? Gone. The House That Henry Built? Untouched. Not even a broken window. He likes to say that the tornado just bounced right off his house.

    The pics were amazing.

  53. 53
    Patrick says:

    @Dolly Llama:

    I’m going to hear the President speak today in person at N.C. State. First time ever being in the same room with a POTUS.

    I find it disgusting that your senator is refusing to attend. Does she really think it is going to help her re-election by pretending to be a Republican? The Republicans already have a candidate.

    Sen. Kay Hagan (D-NC) is skipping President Obama’s visit to her home state, the Los Angeles Times reports.

  54. 54
    cmorenc says:


    I get all my news from Balloon Juice. You are my Roger Ailes, AL.

    John Cole is our Roger Ailes? Does Roger Ailes have a junked Mercedes out in some farmer’s field somewhere?

  55. 55
    Paul in KY says:

    @Tommy: I voted for Sen. Obama in 08. IMO, most good liberals did. You always need to think about ‘general election electabiliity’ when you vote in a primary, IMO.

  56. 56
    Paul in KY says:

    @Tommy: You’re not around O’Fallon, IL are you?

  57. 57
    raven says:

    Well, it’s an open thread so I’d like some feedback. I was scheduled for shoulder surgery next week but, after exploring the recovery time and specifics, I cancelled the surgery. My wife asked me “what can’t you do now that you want to?”

  58. 58
    Paul in KY says:

    @Schlemizel: James K. Polk was a POS. About like having Dubya as Pres.

  59. 59
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Michael Bersin: The MO General assembly is nothing BUT clowns. Especially my idiot Rep.

  60. 60
    Linda Featheringill says:


    Loved the video! Much more enjoyable than a sophisticated person such as myself [ahem] thought it would be.

  61. 61
    Linda Featheringill says:


    I’ve been working around health care professionals for three decades and most of the folks I met were hesitant to undergo surgery. Sometimes it’s necessary [broken hip, for example] but otherwise why be in a hurry?

    I don’t know the details about your shoulder but you might ask your doctor for a referral to physical therapy so they can teach you range of motion exercises. Such exercises frequently help and have very few side effects.

  62. 62
    slippytoad says:

    We DO NOT WANT Roger Ailes for the left. We DO NOT WANT Rupert Murdoch, Rush Limbaugh, or Glenn Beck for the left.

    Those people make their party look STUPID, and INTOLERANT, and completely closed to the hard facts of reality. The single most destructive element of the GOP today is their bought-and-paid-for propaganda organization, which deliberately confuses the issues and misleads everyone, causing the party to become one of the most bigoted, insular, violently stupid organizations in American history.

    Let’s not ever wish for a liberal Roger Ailes. Liberals do not have “thought leaders” because we are not sheep needing our “thoughts” dictated to us.

    To put it bluntly, we are so much, much better than that.

  63. 63
    raven says:

    @Linda Featheringill: That’s the rub. I really liked the orthopod and his perspective was that, with the amount of exercise (swim daily for years) that strength and flexibility are now the issue. The MRI showed a torn labrum and that don’t get fixed with exercise. On thew other hand, two months in a recliner and the prospect of 6-8 months of PT for full recovery just didn’t sit well with me. I am probably going to back off 7 days a week in the pool and do other word, I should have done that anyway. Thanks.

  64. 64
    Paul in KY says:

    @raven: I would say an older person should always be concerned about going under GA. Also healing times are longer, etc.

    If shoulder is fixed, how much better will it be than what you have right now?

  65. 65
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @raven: One of my shoulders is about shot with arthritis. There are plenty of things I can not do now because of it, one of them being getting a decent nights sleep (in reality, that is only one of the things that wake me up) I know someday I will need surgery but as long as I can tolerate the pain I will deal with it because of the recovery.

    My wife had a torn rotator cuff and a torn biceps tendon they didn’t even know about when they went in. Pre-surgery she could not raise her arm above her head, but now she is as good as new. But I watched the hell she went through with PT.

    A laborer I worked with for years tore several tendons in his shoulder on the job. As usual, the company fwcked around for a year while his shoulder just got worse, before they finally allowed him to see a real Doc. They did the surgery and in his first PT session, the therapist retore one of the tendons. It took 6 months to figure that out, more surgery, more PT, more….

    Poor Vince had to take a Workmens Comp settlement from the company, get a disability settlement from the union, retraining, etc etc and now at the age of 50 plus he is trying to start a new career.

    Don’t know the particulars of your situation, and that can be a big variable, but I share your reluctance. The results I have seen are all over the place.

  66. 66
    Violet says:

    @raven: Canceled it permanently, or canceled it so you can think about it some more?

  67. 67
    raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Paul in KY

    Yea, this is all helpful. I have the same sleep issues but when I looked at 2 months in a recliner and what the pt was I really got cold feet. My shoulder has bothered me for a long time but there is not much I can’t do. The most difficult problems come when I go to the gulf and throw that 11ft rod for 8 hours a day for a week! My bride has been having back and arm issues and the last thing she needs is to be babying me for months. The surgery would have been on my dominant arm and the list of shit I wouldn’t be able to do was too much.

  68. 68
    raven says:

    @Violet: I was hoping you’d be here. I was very upfront with the desk person that if there was a “postpone” option that’s what I wanted. She couldn’t actually cancel and the nurse who does was out so I left a voice mail. I really liked the orthopod and will continue to let them know that. I guess I just don’t think that it’s worth it at this time.

  69. 69
    Amir Khalid says:

    The phrase “herding cats” always brings this commercial to mind.

  70. 70
    Paul in KY says:

    @raven: Sounds like you made the right decision for you :-)

  71. 71
    TS says:


    If it can happen for Lyndon Johnson….

    Pres Johnson was white – and came from Texas

  72. 72

    Having a spokesperson like Ailes is more a curse than blessing. His Fox network promotes delusional thinking among its viewers. Sooner or later reality bites you in the ass. One can run away from reality only for so long.

  73. 73
    gene108 says:


    Thank you.

  74. 74
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Amir Khalid: Didn’t contribute to the longevity of the company.

    There used to be (maybe still is?) a street performer on the waterfront in Key West who had trained normal housecats to perform on cue, like a mini-circus-tiger act. It was remarkable.

  75. 75

    @gene108: Good luck! I hope its nothing too serious. I am keeping my fingers crossed for you.

  76. 76
    Elizabelle says:

    @big ole hound:

    My brother in law is a general contractor who specializes in renovations, often high end and frequently historic stuff. (You want 11 foot pocket doors restored, he’s your guy.)

    I know he gets a real sense of accomplishment from building well, and being his own boss (he’s got crews and subs), even when that comes with hours of paperwork and scheduling and all.

    And lots of aches and pains and leaving the house before dawn in all kinds of weather.

    I really admire him. For some, it’s a calling.

  77. 77

    @Gin & Tonic: Isn’t there a Russian circus with kittehs? They toured the US a couple of years ago and NYT had done a story on them.

  78. 78

    Since this is an open thread, let me leave this;
    My review of the last episode of Downton Abbey

  79. 79
    raven says:

    @Elizabelle: Our contractor is like that too. Too bad he didn’t “physically locate” the sewer line.

  80. 80
    gene108 says:

    I don’t understand why the Left would not want their own major media platform.

    The Tea Party “revolt” on April 15, 2009 were a few hundred folks waving tea-bags in their tri-corner hats. Far more minor than the Iraq War protests of 2002 and 2003 that got virtually no media coverage, i.e. the Tea Party “revolt” was not big enough to warrant more than a blurb in a local paper, based on their size.

    Fox News gave the Tea Party wall-to-wall 24/7 coverage, so the rebranding of the Republican Party took off. It got a great push from Ailes & Co. and developed national appeal.

    The Left is fighting an uphill battle against the Right, because the Right has major media megaphones to push their positions, lies and accusations against the Left.

  81. 81
    Elizabelle says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    In Las Vegas, there is Gregory Popovich and his Comedy Pet Theatre of rescued cats and dogs.

    He looks for what the cats like to do and builds an act around that. They are harder to train than dogs.

  82. 82
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @raven: Everybody recovers differently, but as I’ve mentioned, I don’t think you’ll be in a recliner for 2 months. I also commented on your voice recognition software in what was probably a dead thread, but you should be able to keyboard within a few days, maybe a week, if you hold the keyboard/laptop low in your lap and angle it right.

    The first couple of weeks are no joke, but from what I’ve seen, you could be able to bathe and dress yourself fairly easily by the end of the month.

  83. 83
    Elizabelle says:


    Oy vey. That was an episode for you.

    And good luck with the shoulder, whichever you decide. Good on you and Mrs. raven keeping the medical establishment on their toes.

  84. 84
    raven says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Yes, I saw that and I appreciated it. It may be that I am just chicken but I’m bailing for now.

  85. 85
    raven says:

    @Elizabelle: It’s not even close to over. Maybe they will move the line in 8 months!

  86. 86
    Elizabelle says:


    I would love to see consolidation in the major media market stopped in its tracks, and rolled back.

    It’s not good for our nation to have maybe four megacorps controlling the news industry. And national/international news should not be a profit center.

    It’s how we get the celebrity infotainment culture.

    We have a corporate press masquerading as a free press. We could use a more vigorous broadcast and written press that rewards accuracy, not controversy and sensationalism.

  87. 87
    Violet says:

    @raven: Sorry I’m late back to the thread. It sounds like there’s no real reason to rush the surgery. You can always get a second or third opinion, talk to a PT person, maybe even consider acupuncture or other things like that.

    Surgery is definitely recommended in some situations but not all. And going under anesthetic can affect people in different ways, and as we get older it can be a bigger deal. You can always get the surgery in a week or a month or six months if you need to.

    I go to a therapy that isn’t available in your area yet. It’s sort of part PT, part manual manipulation of fascia and tendons. Ask around within your Masters swimming group and see if anyone knows of any kind of therapy you might not be aware of. That’s how we found this place.

  88. 88
    gene108 says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:

    I don’t think it is. I just want to know, if I’m going to be on an anti-biotic for my fever or not.

  89. 89
    Patrick says:


    I agree with you. The right has a much louder megaphone than the left. Whenever FoxNews says something, no matter how strange, inevitably CBS, ABC and NBC will eventually pick the story up.

    I remember Obama’s first couple of months as President. He was going to make an innocent speech to our country’s school children basically urging them to study harder. Thanks to FoxNews, it became extremely controversial. Eventually NBC, etal picked the story up and ultimately school districts could choose not to allow the children to hear the speech.
    A fricking speech urging students to study harder!!!

    If the left had an equally loud megaphone there would at least be a counter balance that currently doesn’t exist. Unfortunately many on the left don’t seem to even want it.

  90. 90
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @raven: Understood. It’s always easy to recommend surgery to somebody else.

  91. 91
    raven says:

    @Violet: I appreciate all the input. I’ll check around.

  92. 92
    raven says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Your information was really helpful. I knew when I started down this path I could get something to support anything I chose. It was my gut that tipped the scale.

  93. 93
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    A fricking speech urging students to study harder!!!

    But but but… Racism is dead!

  94. 94
    Elizabelle says:


    It’s very true that Fox can drive the narrative, which is an indictment of our press. By the time they cover the actual story, a lot of the audience “knows what it knows.”

    Our real problem is that the networks and the press corpse are wired for Republican talking points.

    And a lot of them live in really nice homes, with kids in expensive schools. Public service is for suckers.

    When David Brooks is a role model for success, you’ve got a problem with your press.

    Last: if non-Republicans are checking out many sources of information, you don’t have the olds parked in lazyboys and diners thrilling to hour after hour of Foxcasting.

  95. 95
    Elizabelle says:

    That said, it would be great to see a functioning media counterpoint to Fox.

    If one can work, bring it on.

  96. 96
    chrome agnomen says:


    i WANT FEMA death camps. i had been a tolerant liberal for my entire political life up to the early 2000s. no longer.

  97. 97
    raven says:

    Here’s something that perplexes me. I talked to a guy this morning that was up and at it in three days with a total shoulder replacement. I guess reattaching or tightening labrum is a whole different ballgame.

  98. 98
    Violet says:

    @raven: Sure! Best of luck with the whole thing. I know how pain can really inhibit your daily life and it’s no fun. I hope you can find something–or some combination of things–that work for you.

  99. 99

    @raven: Have you tried Yoga? It has been helpful for joint pain for someone I know.

  100. 100
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @raven: I hear those stories and I too just don’t get it.

  101. 101
    Violet says:

    @raven: Interesting that you say it was your gut that tipped the scale for halting the surgery. I know I don’t know you, but somehow your hesitancy came through in what you wrote about it. I got the feeling you were sort of talking yourself into it. Maybe that’s why I was suggesting you take your time and not rush into it. In any case, glad you’ve made a decision you’re comfortable with for now. The surgery will still be there later if you decide that is the right choice.

  102. 102
    tybee says:


    if they’re not going to move the line for 8 months, sounds like you have the window open for the recovery/PT time on the shoulder…

  103. 103
    Cervantes says:


    We could use a more vigorous broadcast and written press that rewards accuracy, not controversy and sensationalism.

    Well, sure.

    (“COMMENTER IN BRONXVILLE” is my favorite.)

  104. 104
    Cervantes says:


    That said, it would be great to see a functioning media counterpoint to Fox.

    What do you mean by this? Another commenter here said recently (NB: I am paraphrasing from “memory”) that it’s useful to have in the mass media a cheerleader for Democrats, perhaps even a propagandist, and perhaps even at the expense of sober, careful coverage. Is that what you mean? What would “a functioning media counterpoint to Fox” look like?

  105. 105
    Patrick says:

    What do you mean by this? Another commenter here said recently (NB: I am paraphrasing from “memory”) that it’s useful to have in the mass media a cheerleader for Democrats, perhaps even a propagandist, and perhaps even at the expense of sober, careful coverage. Is that what you mean? What would “a functioning media counterpoint to Fox” look like?

    I don’t mean to speak for Elizabelle, but I do agree with her. There absolutely needs to be a functioning media counterpoint to Fox. I don’t know what it would look like. I am not a media person. But I know this much; the current situation is not working. Just about anytime FoxNews focuses on something (irregardless of how irrelevant), the rest of media picks it up with no regard to facts or counterpoint. This is why don’t watch MSM News.

  106. 106
    raven says:

    @Violet: Thanks again!

  107. 107
    Fuzzy says:

    @raven: My awful shoulder pain was finally diagnosed to be bursitis. Two Cortizone shots right into the joint stopped all pain immediately. Many MDs wanted to do invasive stuff rather than the cheap way out.

  108. 108
    J R in WV says:


    Have you contributed to his campaign and enclosed a letter with your check?

    It doesn’t take thousands of dollars to have a direct one-on-one relationship with a congressman. I contribute what I can to the folks who look like they have a decent shot at winning, last round all but one of my candidates actually won!

    And last night when I played the 2 messages on the phone, the first was my last chance to take advantage of the fiscal stimulus!!!

    The second call was the congressman who took over Gabby Gifford’s district in SE Arizona. We have a winter camp there (I built it over the past 4 or 5 winters, with help from friends) and I would have supported him anyway. He left me his personal phone number because he wanted to talk to me. I didn’t kick in thousands of dollars even in total.

    So reach out to the General, and see if he won’t take advice from a constituent. I bet it might help, and it sure can’t hurt!

  109. 109
    WereBear says:

    @Patrick: Just about anytime FoxNews focuses on something (irregardless of how irrelevant), the rest of media picks it up with no regard to facts or counterpoint.

    But that’s not because Fox News is so influential so much that every other mainstream news outlets is also in the tank for Republicans.

  110. 110
    J R in WV says:


    That’s way more than 100K people. I’ve been to football games with 80-90K people and that’s more like 250-300K people. Amazing!

    And so typical for the media to reduce their count as much as they think they can get away with!

  111. 111
    Steeplejack says:


    What Linda Featheringill said about “a referral to physical therapy so they can teach you range of motion exercises.”

    Also, you might consider getting a swimming coach to look at your stroke to see if it could be improved. From what you have said, it seems like swimming is your main current activity that is being adversely affected.

    I used to teach and coach swimming at Dynamo in Atlanta, and in my experience there are very many “strong” swimmers who have terrible stroke efficiency, which, over time and distance, could lead to problems such as you are experiencing. Whether or not swimming caused your shoulder problem, you might find that an improvement in your stroke could help a lot.

  112. 112


    I see your crazy right wingnut state representative and raise you two, Denny “Pay my property taxes, are you kidding? – and – I’ll sell out my constituents for a leadership position” Hoskins (r) and Dean “How is a doorknob supposed to work?” Dohrman (r). Then I throw in Vicky Hartzler (r), the Michele Bachmann of Missouri, only meaner, as my U.S. representative.

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