Monday Evening Open Thread: Devolving

The jokes, they write themselves!

But then, as NYMag points out, “Meanwhile, only 60 percent of American adults believe in evolution, regardless of political affiliation…”

What’s on the agenda for the evening, as we wrap up the calendar year?

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199 replies
  1. 1
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    We are Devo!

  2. 2
    WereBear says:

    That last fact is very discouraging. Except that I know absolutely no thought went into it, so it could skew higher with a bit of effort.

  3. 3
    smintheus says:

    One of the more interesting stats in the Pew poll is that 24% of the people who get a college degree don’t “believe” in human evolution. That’s some education they’re getting.

  4. 4
    Belafon says:

    Someone made the comment that this could be in part because fewer people are identifying as Republican, and those that still do so are more fundamentalist. This could just be the case of the denominator getting smaller.

  5. 5
    Yatsuno says:

    Does this mean we get to keep all the new antibiotics? After all, no evolution means bacteria always stay the same amirite?

    Yesterday walked two lengths of the parallel bars. Today that was six. And I still have a session to go yet.

  6. 6
    Mike in NC says:

    “Meanwhile, only 60 percent of American adults believe in evolution, regardless of political affiliation…”

    Millions of Americans believe in miracles and angels and ghosts and lots of other superstitious bullshit. At the same time they don’t believe in evolution or much else that is science-related. Tribes of headhunters and cannibals living in the remote jungles of Borneo are better informed.

  7. 7
    Joey Giraud says:

    What would the numbers be if the question were “Do you understand evolution?”

    Belief is all that most people can muster, and beliefs change with the wind.

  8. 8
    Arclite says:

    Most people have a self-interest in believing in god, and thus not believing evolution is real: death. “I don’t know” is a lot scarier than believing in heaven.

    And we all know what Upton Sinclair said about getting someone to believe something…

  9. 9
    Mandalay says:

    As others pointed out in an earlier thread, the issue should not even be framed as having a “belief” in evolution, as though the issue was a matter of subjective opinion.

    Instead of writing “In 2009, 54 percent of Republicans claimed to believe humans have evolved over time.” the writer should have stated “In 2009, 46 percent of Republicans still refused to accept that humans have evolved over time”.

    Sadly, it’s worth noting that the same poll also showed that 33% of Democrats don’t accept evolution. Both sides do it!

  10. 10
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Yatsuno: They believe in microevolutuion. Animal and plant breeding and such. They just don’t believe in macroevolution. Therefore, Jesus taught crop science from the back of a dinosaur.

  11. 11
    Anoniminous says:

    IOW, 46% of Republicans and 40% of Americans are ignorant of Biology. As a Public Service:


    is a list of high school Biology textbooks.

    BTW, by “belief” I think you meant to write “accept the accuracy of a conclusion based on reason and evidence.”

  12. 12
    EconWatcher says:

    Well, as a fallen Catholic, I have to say that this is one area where my former church should get some props. I was actually taught evolution by a guy in a Roman collar (a Christian Brother), who openly scoffed at creationists. He just finished his lectures with the admonition–“But remember, gentlemen, there’s still room for God.” (It was an all-boys school.)

  13. 13
    dedc79 says:

    @Yatsuno: It does seem kind of odd to deny evolution when we can witness it first-hand.

  14. 14
    Cacti says:

    How does one “believe” in evolution?

    It’s like saying one believes in gravity.

  15. 15
    GregB says:

    I do believe that Paul Broun was a knuckle dragging Neanderthal in a previous incarnation.

  16. 16
    🎉 Martin says:

    Quite the validation of Cleek’s Law.

  17. 17
    Gene108 says:

    What would be interesting is to poll the same people on their “belief” in astronomy, ie blackholes, exo-planets, etc.

    Much of the data about astronomy comes from inference of remote data and not direct human observation.

    Much like how evolution is based on inferences of fossils and such.

  18. 18
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @EconWatcher: I went to a public high school and my IB Bio teacher would tell Jesus jokes on Good Friday. “So Jesus walks into a Holiday Inn, puts down three nails on the counter and says, ‘Can you put me up for the night?” Why can’t Jesus eat M&Ms? They fall through the holes in His hands.” We all did quite well on the IB Bio exam.

  19. 19
    jeffreyw says:

    Mrs J’s birthday today and she called for lobster. We did a surf n turf that was pretty good. She made herself a birthday cake for later, carrot cake with a brown butter cream cheese icing. She uses box mix and bumps it up with real carrots, raisins and pineapple chunks.

  20. 20
    Baud says:

    A lot of people are told that accepting evolution means essentially being an atheist. So it may be more a reaction to the word than the idea, like socialism.

  21. 21
    Mandalay says:


    Much like how evolution is based on inferences of fossils and such.

    Fossil evidence is compelling and persuasive, but it is not needed. Even if there were no fossils, evolution would still be a matter of fact rather than opinion, based on all the non-fossil evidence.

  22. 22
    dedc79 says:

    But do they believe in devolution?

  23. 23
    Baud says:


    As opposed to this incarnation?

  24. 24
    jl says:

    I clicked through to read the article. The age trend is encouraging. 49 percent of elderly believe in evolution, and that rises to 68 percent in 18-29 age group.

    Heck, we are a new species, who is still larnin’. i read that “anatomically modern” are only about 275,000 to 250,000 years old. If we don’t kill a habitable earth off too quickly, we might have a chance.

    Edit: and ‘uncertain’ go down from 15 percent to 4 percent.
    But I just noticed that the 27 percent of youngins don’t believe in human evolution. Dum dum DUUMMMM! The 27 percent rears its baleful head. Maybe that means all but the baseline crazification factor of youth has an open mind.

  25. 25

    I choose to see it as evolution doesn’t believe in them.

  26. 26
    Cacti says:


    I clicked through to read the article. The age trend is encouraging. 49 percent of elderly believe in evolution, and that rises to 68 percent in 18-29 age group.

    That’s still almost 1/3.

    I has a sad.

  27. 27
    cathyx says:

    I’m curious what the percentages are in other countries.

  28. 28
    jl says:

    @Cacti: No, dude, its the 27 percent! Let me know when you have a cure for the 27 percent. No one expects the 27 percent!

  29. 29
    JaneE says:

    I think part of the drop is due to sane people leaving the Republican party.

  30. 30
    raven says:

    I see Broun’s brother all the time. He is truly embarrassed.

  31. 31
    gogol's wife says:


    Good man! My husband just got back from PT (much less strenuous than yours). He loves it.

  32. 32
    Cacti says:


    I think part of the drop is due to sane people leaving the Republican party.

    Part of the reason Romney was so sure he’d win was because he was polling so well with “independents”.

    I’d wager that a fair number of those “independents” were Republicans too embarrassed to self-indentify outside of a voting booth.

  33. 33
  34. 34
    bemused says:

    Meat sauce spaghetti, salad, garlic bread dinner on a day that never got above zero. Then curl up with a throw in front of the fireplace with the crossword puzzles.

  35. 35
    Baud says:

    What has evolution done for us lately?

  36. 36
    Hungry Joe says:

    I didn’t think of it for the “One Toke over the Line” post, so I’ll plunk this down here. For those of you who’ve never seen it, plastic sheeting is strongly recommended — unless you want to be scraping brain matter and skull fragments out of your keyboard. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you “One Toke over the Line”:

  37. 37
    RaflW says:

    Huge oil train tanker car explosions in North Dakota this afternoon. At least 5 cars have blown, many more could blow. One of many side effects of the fracking boom.

    This twitter feed is gathering remarkable photos.

  38. 38
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @jl: In France those who say they don’t believe in evolution amount to around 10%.

    So “young species, still learning” — speak for yourself, silly Americainze. Zee rest of us have eevolved deja.

    Just kidding.

    It is a pretty striking difference though. On this chart from 2006, the US is just above Turkey, second to the bottom.

    I do wonder sometimes if we in the US will become so backward that we qualify as a separate species, so you may be right.

  39. 39
    Gravenstone says:

    Just bring on the fucking meteor. We’re obviously a lost cause as a species. Maybe the next one in line after a hard reset will get it right.

  40. 40
    raven says:

    @Hungry Joe: A wunerful a wunerful, turn off the bubble machine.

  41. 41
    geg6 says:


    For all my criticism of the RCC, I also remember no one, either among the clergy or anyone in our parish, having trouble accepting evolution. In fact, both of the high school biology teachers were ushers in our parish and my elementary school science teacher was a eucharistic minister.

  42. 42
    Kyle says:

    There’s a disturbing difference in not believing in evolution, on the one hand, and believing it and then deciding not to, on the other. The former can be attributed to ignorance from lack of exposure to the concept (I’m looking at you, homeschoolers), while the other is simply being willfully stupid, and more likely than not, an act of political desperation in an attempt to support some screw-balled right wing position (e.g., refusal to believe in evolution so you can argue that “intelliigent design” should be taught in schools just like evolution).

  43. 43
    jayboat says:

    Knuckledraggers have needs, too.

  44. 44
    Botsplainer says:

    Can we please restate that as accept the scientific principle that explains the mechanism of evolution.

  45. 45
    Roger Moore says:


    Does this mean we get to keep all the new antibiotics? After all, no evolution means bacteria always stay the same amirite?

    No, no. See, that’s “microevolution”, which even most evolution deniers have to accept because it’s staring them in the face. They just claim that evolution is restricted to that kind of micro thing and could never change one kind of organism into another. The unstated (or rarely stated in public) assumption is that we’ve only had 6000 years for evolution to work, so it could never have the size of effect biologists ascribe to it.

  46. 46
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @Hungry Joe: Sweet Jesus Mary and Lawrence.

    Hearing that band try to play “rock” at that point is almost physically painful, you find yourself trying to nudge them into the groove but it keeps clunking along like a robot.

    Some of the guys in that band could play world-class jazz, there were some funny Lawrence Welk stories among sidemen over the years who’d done that gig. Rock was just not their thing though, at that point in history, yikes, that’s just awful.

  47. 47
    raven says:

    @Roger Moore: Doesn’t some of it hinge on the definition of time.

    A second with your hand on a hot stove burner is like a lifetime and a lifetime with a beautiful woman is like a second.

  48. 48
    maya says:

    OT, but the ad under this thread is for a US Navy cap. Which proudly states: :”We own the seas.”
    How long has that been the USN motto? ( Makes my USMC Semper Fi motto seem kinda gay.)

  49. 49
    Hungry Joe says:

    @raven: Man, you’ve got the cadence DOWN. I’ve seen some well-placed commas, but none better than that one. Somewhere, L.W. smiles.

  50. 50
    cathyx says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Most of those countries are 1st world countries. Missing are the Middle East, Asia, Africa and South and Central America.

  51. 51
    ruemara says:

    @Yatsuno: Nice work! You’re recovering like a champ!

  52. 52
    raven says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim: From TV Urban Legends

    “If you miss the “toke” reference, then the song just sounds like a normal pop song.
    And that was what the producers of the Lawrence Welk Show were thinking when they had one of the recurring musical acts on the group, Gail and Dale, perform the tune on the show (referring to it as a modern day spiritual).

  53. 53
    raven says:

    @Hungry Joe: It was a musical parody that is somewhere in the echo’s of my mind.

    Ah, here it is, Stan Freberg

  54. 54
    Citizen_X says:

    Well, the statement that they agree with is that “humans and other living things have existed in their present form since the beginning of time.” (My emphasis.) So they think the Earth is 6000 years old. (Or, worse, that we humans have been around for 4.56 billion years!)

    PS: I don’t think “believe” was used in the original questions. There were just statements of fact (or BS) that people were asked to agree with or not.

  55. 55
    Roger Moore says:


    Doesn’t some of it hinge on the definition of time.

    Well, a day is a lot more generations for a microbe than it is for a human, so their evolution can go faster. Of course their population is a lot larger, too, so it takes more generations for traits to dominate the population, but their evolution is still a lot faster.

  56. 56
    RaflW says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim: “I do wonder sometimes if we in the US will become so backward that we qualify…” as a tinpot republic akin to 70’s Central American kleptocracies?


  57. 57
    Citizen_X says:


    How long has that been the USN motto?

    Since it was the Royal Navy motto?

  58. 58
    mclaren says:

    Yet they still get vaccinations.

  59. 59
    raven says:

    @Roger Moore: I was just foolin around, I love that little motto.

  60. 60
    raven says:

    @RaflW: Is that Todd Akin?

  61. 61
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @raven: The introduction of it it as “One of the new songs” was my favorite part of the whole video.

    Yes I’m sure they had no idea, just some crazy beatnik word, probably means “skoch” or somethin, who knows with these kids today.

    One of the (many) Lawrence Welk stories was from a bass player who did the show for a while, and when he tried to get creative, get his Eddie Gomez on a little, Lawrence came running up saying “No no, the bass doesn’t have that many notes on it!”

    The other one that comes to mind is when he read the cue card and announced “Anda now, some songs from World War Eye”

  62. 62
    mclaren says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim:

    I do wonder sometimes if we in the US will become so backward that we qualify as a separate species…

    Untermenschen, eh?

    That would certainly fit with the United States of Amnesia’s slide into fascism while strutting and boasting: “It can’t happen here!

  63. 63
    raven says:

    @mclaren: Don’t you have somewhere else to be?

  64. 64
    Chris says:


    I’ll say this for the Catholic Church, nothing renews your appreciation for them like the contrast with American-style fundiegelicalism.

  65. 65
    mclaren says:

    Jocko Homo

    They tell us that we lost our tails
    Evolving up from little snails
    I say it’s all just wind in sails

    Are we not men?
    We are Devo!
    Are we not men?

    We’re pinheads now
    We are not whole
    We’re pinheads all!
    Jocko Homo

    Are we not pins?
    We are Devo!

  66. 66
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @RaflW: Oh I think we easily qualify as that already. Actually forming a new species, being so backwards, uneducated and just plain stupid that we actually branch off, now that would be an impressive step. Homo Ignoramus or something. Others with degrees in life sciences (or Latin) can come up with better names I’m sure.

  67. 67
    Gex says:

    I felt really guilty about skipping family Christmas on Christmas day. But my decision to skip family Christmas was a good one. Uncle so decked out in Duck Dynasty gear and so culturally identified with the contrived culture the show curates that he looks like he’s from the show. Fuck you, queer!

    Not that this is a surprise mind you. Many of them think that there’s something wrong with me and that’s why I’m gay. I recall this uncle at my Grandparents’ house as the family discussed the issues of the day in the 80’s saying that he was glad that those “fucking cocksuckers” were dying of AIDS. He’s also the uncle that molested his sister, is an angry drunk, always has his conceal and carry weapon, and is afraid of the violent angry son he raised. Good God, I would be so embarrassed to be such a stereotype.

    So glad he’s standing with homophobia loud and proud and making sure to bring that message to all the great grandkids at Christmas time. Maybe the family can produce another unhappy gay person with suicidal tendencies if we are consistent with our messaging! There are enough great-grandkids that the odds are that there’s a gay kid internalizing this shit.

    After seeing that picture from the family Christmas, I informed my Mom I will no longer be attending that. I will visit my grand parents on a different day.

    PSA: Adults, please remember that children understand more of your conversations than you think they do. And if you cheer for people like them to die, they WILL remember that.

  68. 68
    maya says:

    @Citizen_X: “Since it was the Royal Navy motto?”

    That must have been one hell of a sea battle.

  69. 69
    Mandalay says:


    I don’t think “believe” was used in the original questions. There were just statements of fact (or BS) that people were asked to agree with or not.

    Perhaps in the original survey, but not later

    In 1993 and 2003, national samples of American adults were asked about the same statement but were offered the choice of saying that the statement was “definitely true, probably true, probably false, definitely false,” or that they did not know or were uncertain.

    The real problem with the article was that it was compiling data from multiple surveys from multiple countries over a longish period of time. So while the results may not be worthless, they should not be taken too seriously either.

  70. 70
    mclaren says:


    Aren’t you late for an appointment to kick the crutches out from under a crippled kid?

  71. 71
    Roger Moore says:

    You might have been fooling around, but there’s some truth to the idea that time doesn’t have a fixed role in these things. One of the big ideas in evolution is the concept of “punctuated equilibrium”, where species tend to be relatively stable for long periods and then undergo sudden, rapid change; it’s almost as if time in an evolutionary sense is not a fixed constant but happens differently depending on circumstances. When a species is in a nice stable environment that it’s well adapted for- the species equivalent of having a pretty girl in its lap- a million years can pass with very little change. But when there’s sudden environmental change- the species equivalent of having its hand on a hot stove- there can be drastic change in just a few dozen generations.

  72. 72
    raven says:

    @mclaren: Humor, wow, cool.

  73. 73
    WereBear says:

    @Gex: Geez, I don’t blame you.

    FWIW, miserable people are miserable people.

  74. 74
    raven says:

    @WereBear: Hell, I thought that about mclaren till just now.

  75. 75
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @Roger Moore: One of the “big ideas”, oh dear. Well that is one way putting it.

    Too large (and contentious) a subject for any meaningful treatment, plus I have to go, but just to note that it’s not universally accepted as meaningful or even valid, not by a long shot:

    In his book Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, philosopher Daniel Dennett is especially critical of Gould’s presentation of punctuated equilibrium. Dennett argues that Gould alternated between revolutionary and conservative claims about the theory, and that each time Gould made a revolutionary statement—or appeared to do so—he was criticized, and thus retreated to a traditional neo-Darwinian position.[59] Gould responded to Dennett’s claims in The New York Review of Books,[60] and in his technical volume The Structure of Evolutionary Theory.[61

    Richard Dawkins doesn’t believe it explains anything at all, but then so many people have such weird and violent reactions to Dawkins that I figured a quote from Dennet was better. You can find Dawkins’ objections at the link though, and he is, despite being famous as a professional atheist, one of the most important scientists of our time.

  76. 76
    ruemara says:

    This has been an interesting question to wrestle with. I’ve written a column every month for over 7 years. The subjects-wide ranging; the compensation-BWHAHAHA! Good karma. Everything I write is sourced, even the most frivolous one, like the upcoming praise one that I’m trying to write in sonnet form. But on an application, I was asked if I’ve done journalism. Sure, when writing about sustainable seafood or the issues and perils of Big Organic. But for pete’s sake, my standards of journalism disallows entire big expensive news media outlets from considering themselves journalism. I just don’t know. Is it my fault that 600 words on alternative sweeteners has more footnotes than the latest screed on Fox News?

  77. 77
    Violet says:

    @Gex: Wow, what a creep. Don’t blame you for skipping that gathering. No need to subject yourself to that mess. Are you in contact with any of the kids?

  78. 78
    cathyx says:

    I found this:
    The “evolutionist” view was most popular in Sweden (68%), Germany (65%), and China (64%), with the United States ranking 18th (28%), between Mexico (34%) and Russia (26%);

    the “creationist” view was most popular in Saudi Arabia (75%), Turkey (60%), and Indonesia (57%), with the United States ranking 6th (40%), between Brazil (47%) and Russia (34%).

  79. 79
    Aji says:

    On the agenda?


    We lost an elder Friday afternoon. Different tribe from either of us, but someone we both loved dearly, and one of the most important NDN leaders of our era.

    Ending 2013 with a big hole in my soul.

  80. 80
    Violet says:

    @Aji: Sorry for your loss. Sad way to end the year. Not familiar with “NDN”. What does that mean?

  81. 81
    Chris says:


    There’s a disturbing difference in not believing in evolution, on the one hand, and believing it and then deciding not to, on the other. The former can be attributed to ignorance from lack of exposure to the concept (I’m looking at you, homeschoolers), while the other is simply being willfully stupid, and more likely than not, an act of political desperation in an attempt to support some screw-balled right wing position (e.g., refusal to believe in evolution so you can argue that “intelliigent design” should be taught in schools just like evolution).

    This. It’s part of the totalistic mindset on the right – doesn’t matter why you got into the cult in the first place (9/11, abortion, taxes, that one time you were mugged by a black guy), if you’re at all active in it you’re expected to take on each and every last belief as your own. The teabaggers, being above all an army of voters intended to keep the party pure, ratcheted that up to eleven.

    Toss in the determination of milquetoast centrists to nod politely at every idea that comes from their side of the aisle and declare that it’s a Very Serious idea that deserves our full consideration, no matter how farcical and easily disprovable…

  82. 82
    Aji says:

    @Violet: We use it as shorthand for “Indian” (helps to sound it out).

    The thing is, we knew it was coming – have known for a year or so that it was just a matter of time. And none of that helps in the slightest. If you want to read his obit, there’s a good one here.

    Oh, and that photo they chose? That’s him holding up a bracelet my other half made for him as a gift, presented to him for us by a very dear mutual friend at an honor dance held for him back in April (we couldn’t make it ourselves).

    And thank you. Sorry. I’m so swamped by this that I’m forgetting my manners.

  83. 83
    jl says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim: Thanks for the info and link. I vaguely remembered that the U.S. was on the low side, but had no time to look for a link. I don’t remember it being next to the bottom, but remember it being close to that, sadly.

  84. 84
    Violet says:

    Tebow takes an announcing job with ESPN:

    Tim Tebow has his next football job — talking about the sport on TV.

    The Heisman Trophy winner has been hired as a college football analyst for the new SEC Network in a return to his Florida glory days, but he still hopes to play quarterback in the NFL.

    Tebow will appear on “SEC Nation,” a pregame show that will travel to a different campus each week after the channel launches in August. The multiyear deal “will not preclude him from continuing to pursue playing opportunities in the NFL,” ESPN, which runs the network, said in a statement Monday.

    Tebow did not play in the league in 2013 after he was cut by the Patriots in August. In the span of just over one season, he went from a national sensation who led the Denver Broncos to the playoffs, to a backup, to out of the NFL.

    “While I continue to pursue my dream of playing quarterback in the NFL, this is an amazing opportunity to be part of the unparalleled passion of college football and the SEC,” Tebow said in a statement released by ESPN.

    He’s never going to play in the NFL again.

  85. 85
    MikeJ says:


    Since it was the Royal Navy motto?

    I thought that was “rum, sodomy, and the lash.”

  86. 86
    Yatsuno says:

    @Aji: May his journey into the next world be an easy path. So sorry for your loss sweet spirit.

  87. 87
    WereBear says:

    @Aji: I’m very sorry.

    This has been a year of great losses for so many I know, including ourselves.

    The Wheel of Life, it turns.

  88. 88
    Violet says:

    @Aji: Ah! Thanks for the explanation. I didn’t know that at all. Take all the time you need with your grief. It’s its own land and everyone has their own journey.

  89. 89
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @raven: Tell him he needs to channel that embarrassment into a vote for Michelle Nunn.

  90. 90
  91. 91
    Mandalay says:


    It’s part of the totalistic mindset on the right

    Don’t forget that 33% of Democrats in the survey also did not accept evolution. Those on the right are certainly more likely to reject evolution, and discourage it being taught, but there are plenty of Democrats with their heads in the sand as well.

    I wish Obama and other prominent Democrat politicians were more outspoken about this issue. They seem afraid to go there.

  92. 92
    cathyx says:

    The less educated are more likely to believe in creationism and less likely to believe in evolution. ‘Nuf said.

  93. 93
    bemused says:


    I found your site and your jewelry is very impressive. Your rings are beautiful.

  94. 94
    Aji says:

    @Yatsuno: Thank you, hon. Appreciate it.

    @WereBear: And thank you, WereBear. I’m sorry you’re going through it, too.

    @Violet: Yes, it is its own land, isn’t it? I wish I could say I’m a stranger to it, but I’m not. Still, gotta travel through it. Thanks.

  95. 95
    Aji says:

    @bemused: Oh, thank you so much! Although I can only take credit for the text and maintenance. He’s the artist in the family. :-D

  96. 96
    JPL says:

    The news and entertainment shows are covering Duck Dynasty’s sermon about marrying under age girls, so there may be some hope. I know that it doesn’t help with homophobic views but how do will the whackos justify this.

  97. 97
    shelly says:

    Due to some neurological symptoms, I was scheduled for two MRI’s, of my spine and brain, respectively. Got thru the first one okay but had problems with the second. I’ve had MRI’s before, so this wasn’t new. But this particular machine was incredibly small; my nose was practically touching the top. And the brain scan required having a plastic helmet fastened around your head, with little sand bags placed around. When they started to shove me in….well, I just couldn’t do it. It’s funny, I’m not claustrophobic at all, but this just stopped me in my tracks, so to speak. So now i have to reschedule…fuck, fuck!

  98. 98
    Violet says:

    @Aji: We are the lucky ones who love someone enough to grieve their loss. That kind of love and respect is our blessing and at times of loss, our challenge. Peace to you as you grieve.

  99. 99
    Roger Moore says:


    He’s never going to play in the NFL again.

    Nor should he.

  100. 100

    Late to this thread but there is an ad on my teevee that is driving me nuts right now. It is an ad for “smart talk wireless” basically Wal Mart’s cell phone service. There is a guy on a cell tower who is proudly proclaiming that these are the cell phone towers that the other cell phone companies built and maintain, but that “smart talk wireless” use for free, but don’t have to build and maintain. So let me get this straight, not only is it okay for the Wal Mart heirs to profit from the government to the tune of 900K per year per store in tax payer benefits, but they are able to leech off cell phone towers that they not only do not build but do not maintain in order to undercut every other cell phone provider in the US? How the hell is anyone okay with this?

  101. 101
    Violet says:


    but how do will the whackos justify this.

    Like they justify everything. He’s on “my team” so he’s okay. “He didn’t mean anything bad by it.” “He’s older and that’s how they thought then.” “They marry young in his family so that’s what he was talking about.” Etc.

  102. 102
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    When you were a tadpole and I was a fish
    In the Paleozoic time,
    And side by side on the ebbing tide
    We sprawled through the ooze and slime,
    Or skittered with many a caudal flip
    Through the depths of the Cambrian fen,
    My heart was rife with the joy of life,
    For I loved you even then.

    Mindless we lived and mindless we loved
    And mindless at last we died;
    And deep in the rift of the Caradoc drift
    We slumbered side by side.
    The world turned on in the lathe of time,
    The hot lands heaved amain,
    Till we caught our breath from the womb of death
    And crept into light again.


    Then as we linger at luncheon here
    O’er many a dainty dish,
    Let us drink anew to the time when you
    Were a tadpole and I was a fish. 

    Excerpted from Evolution by Langdon Smith. 

  103. 103
    bemused says:


    An artist indeed! You are in Taos, NM? I’ve been there a couple of times and would like to get back someday. There is a unique feeling about the area but I can’t find words to describe it.

  104. 104
    Baud says:


    Its a lie. No one would let them use the cell phone infrastructure for free.

  105. 105
    Villago Delenda Est says:


    Rule Britannia Britannia rule the waves!

  106. 106
    Aji says:

    @Violet: I know you’re right. I’m just having a much harder time with this one than I expected.

    Thank you.

  107. 107
    Chris says:


    Or they’ll just change the subject and say “liberals are hypocrites because they want to redefine marriage so it’s okay for gays to marry but not so it’s okay to marry underage girls.” (Yes, I have read that actual argument). Don’t beat yourself up trying to defend yourself; just switch gears to how liberals suck and you’ll have 90% of the conservative audience behind you.

  108. 108

    @maya: @MikeJ:

    Reminds me of a great story. HMS Ark Royal was conducting training exercises with the US Navy on the occasion of the Royal Navy’s birthday. The US ships sent a signal to the Ark Royal saying “Happy Birthday to the world’s second biggest navy” the Ark Royal sent a signal back “we appreciate the wishes from the world’s second best”. We may be a small country but we are a great one, (repeat entire speech from Hugh Grant in Love Actually here).

  109. 109
  110. 110
    Aji says:

    @bemused: Part of it’s the light. :-) It’s what made the Spanish invaders think they’d found Cibola – seeing that mysterious sunlight reflecting off the mica in the clay.

    And, yes – we’ve had a gallery at the Pueblo for years, but we’re in the middle of moving it to our own site where we live (tribal land, but not subject to the calendar of the old village). He’s been an artist his whole life, and a silversmith for decades. I dabble, but mostly I write. Well, and run the business.

    If you get back this way, get hold of me when you come.

  111. 111
    Cain says:

    Today has been a shitty day. I got a call this morning, my uncle passed away. Checked himself into a hospital for a fever and died there. Basically, a little known bacterial infection infected his heart valve and the anti-biotics killed him as much as the valve replacement surgery. It’s sad when you could be hale and hearty and then within 10 days, you’ve chucked the mortal coil.

  112. 112


    Reminds me of a story in our local newspaper about 10 years ago. A Marine married his 14 year old cousin from Alabama with her parents permission. He then brought her here (New River Air Station) set her up in an apartment and then promptly left on deployment. So here was a 14 year old child bride with no transportation, no ability to go to the bank or the grocery store, no ability to work, DSS got involved and promptly transported her back to her family in Alabama. I think that the Marine was charged with statutory rape and discharged.

  113. 113
    Citizen_X says:

    @Aji: Peace be with you.

    BTW, I thought it was lovely how that report had said that Mr. Camp had “walked on.” Nice way to put it.

  114. 114
    bemused says:


    If we ever get the opportunity, we will.

  115. 115
    🎉 Martin says:


    So let me get this straight, not only is it okay for the Wal Mart heirs to profit from the government to the tune of 900K per year per store in tax payer benefits, but they are able to leech off cell phone towers that they not only do not build but do not maintain in order to undercut every other cell phone provider in the US? How the hell is anyone okay with this?

    It gets worse…

    StraightTalk is a brand from TracFone which is an MVNO out of Mexico’s largest wireless carrier. Two things are happening here:

    1) As an MVNO, they’re paying AT&T and the other carriers for use of their infrastructure, so it’s not like anyone is mooching here. And in fact, we’d be better off if there was only one set of infrastructure and everyone was an MVNO.
    2) TracFone also participates in the Lifeline program which I believe WalMart also offers under StraightTalk. That’s a subsidized program not from taxes but from a surcharge on wireless bills for low income people (133% poverty level, IIRC). These are the so-called ObamaPhones that WalMart’s customer base was so outraged about a few years ago.

    So, it’s actually Mexico leeching off of the carriers, and us paying them to do it, and then giving out free phones to black people.

  116. 116
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @Hungry Joe: Damn you

  117. 117
    Ruckus says:

    Fortunately I don’t/didn’t have anyone in my family like that otherwise I’d have done the same. For the life of me I don’t understand why I have to attend a shitty family gathering just because I’m related to someone. I try to make a point of not hanging with assholes. Period. Just because I know them doesn’t make them less of one.
    On the other hand, family deaths, distance and financial misfortune helps avoid many distasteful meetings. Getting older has some advantages.

  118. 118
    Violet says:

    @Hungry Joe: Oh FSM, that is hilarious. Thanks for the link.

  119. 119
    JPL says:

    @Cain: Yup.. A shitty and sad day. I’m so sorry.

  120. 120
    askew says:


    Sorry for your loss. That just sucks all-around.

    Aji – Sorry for your loss as well.

  121. 121
    Ruckus says:

    Had had several MRIs done on the lower body before they stuffed me in head first once. I’m not normally claustrophobic either but this also was an old machine with my shoulders rubbing the walls and only about an inch between my face and the top. Now I know to close my eyes as long as the stage is moving and all will be well. It is a big surprise to find out your flight reflex is still working, isn’t it?

  122. 122
    satby says:

    @Aji: So sorry for your loss Aji. May his spirit rest in peace.

  123. 123
    raven says:

    My LA brother and I were just talking about the ACA, the disinformation campaign and how successful it is. At xmas dinner two separate family members were convinced that “Obamacare” was a disaster and going to cost them money. Even when he sat with them on the site and showed them how much better their coverage could be and how the cost would be offset by tax savings they didn’t believe it. These are not whacky right wingers and they are fairly educated. If they can’t figure it out, well, I’ll leave that to you.

  124. 124
    raven says:

    @shelly: Dang, I have a shoulder MRI Friday.

  125. 125
    Violet says:

    @Cain: So sorry for your loss. All we have is now. So easy to say, so hard to grasp. Peace on your family as you deal with this sudden loss.

  126. 126
    Citizen_X says:


    We may be a small country but we are a great one, (repeat entire speech from Hugh Grant in Love Actually here).

    And I’m reminded of the dialogue from Lawrence of Arabia:

    Anthony Quayle: Britain is a small nation, but we are a great nation, because we have discipline

    Omar Sharif: …because you have guns.

    Peter O’Toole: Right!

    Quayle: Whose side are you on?

    PS: Applies to us big nations with lots of guns too, of course!

  127. 127
    Violet says:

    @raven: What’s going on with your shoulder? Haven’t been here much in the last few days, but saw on my phone that you have some problem with it?

  128. 128
    Roger Moore says:

    What @Baud said. They’re making a highly inaccurate claim. They aren’t getting to use the other carriers’ towers for free; they’re paying some kind of fee to them. They can claim that fee is for access, but the other carriers are going to roll their capital and maintenance costs into the price. If WalMart is saving money, it’s by cutting corners somewhere, either on coverage quality- not renting towers in less populated areas- or customer service.

  129. 129
    raven says:

    @Violet: Bicep tendon, probably and old injury and I’m lucky I’ve been able to keep up the swimming pace for this long. He’s thinking, without the MRI, it’s a partial tear and he can do a scope and “release” it. Looks pretty simple and the biggest complaint is “Popeye” bicep because they just clip the long bicep tendon and the short one does the work.

  130. 130
    Aji says:

    @Citizen_X: Thank you.

    And isn’t it? That’s the way we say it. For a lot (most?) of our peoples, our belief systems include an afterlife of some sort, and “walked on” offers hope for seeing each other again someday. In some of our traditions, it’s actually meant kind of literally – my own have a song that some folks use in death rites that talks about it no longer being the time to “walk together upon this earth,” but the clear implication is that we’ll be able to “walk together” someday in another way. Whether you believe in it literally or not, I’ve always thought it’s a beautiful way of envisioning keeping that person’s spirit alive in your heart.

  131. 131
    Baud says:


    People believe what they want to believe, and a lot of them want to believe anything connected with the Democratic Party sucks.

  132. 132
    raven says:

    @Aji: It’s is, thanks.

  133. 133
    Aji says:

    @askew: Thank you.

    @satby: And thank you, too.

    This is the first, in three days, that I’ve been able to talk about it to anyone else.

  134. 134
    Ruckus says:

    I’ve shown some that they can save money(sometimes lots of it) and/or get much better/at all insurance with the ACA provisions changing the aspect of health insurance. But stupidity gives up no bounds nor educational levels in it’s quest to be the overriding philosophy of our country.

  135. 135
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    I am so sorry you are having to grieve, but rejoicing that you knew someone special enough to grieve deeply for. And I, too, like the term “walked on.”


    That’s very sad news any time, but especially during what is supposed to be a wildly celebratory time. May he RIP and may you take good comfort in your memories.

  136. 136
    shelly says:


    Oh, raven , dammit, the last thing I want to do is somehow scare somebody. Right now, I’m just mad at myself that I after I had the spinal scan, I didn’t try the brain scan set-up again since by then I was used to the machine.

    The MRI tech mentioned valium. Hmm, either that or maybe a couple of martinis’ beforehand.

    And as another posted just said, keeping your eyes closed, at least for the first few minutes, does help alot.

  137. 137
    raven says:

    @Baud: Yea but that’s not the case here. They just hear the noise and believe it about ACA. The one dude had one of the catastrophics that got cancelled and didn’t seem to be able to figure out how much better of a plan he could get.

  138. 138
    Aji says:

    @Yatsuno: Oh, and this is what I mean about losing all sense of my manners. How ARE you, anyway? Recovering well, I hope? Need anything?

    BTW, if you didn’t see it, we had an extra . . . um . . . present on Christmas Eve [skip all the self-indulgent chatter and just scroll to the end of the diary]. We’ve decided that Carter sent him. Oh, and it is a him, BTW, and not a her.

  139. 139
    Violet says:

    @raven: Best of luck with it. Sounds like an MRI is a good idea to be sure what you’re dealing with. No need to have unnecessary surgery if it’s not torn.

  140. 140
    raven says:

    @Aji: Oh my, what a beauty, and the horse ain’t bad! :)

  141. 141
    raven says:

    @Violet: Thanks! It’s hurt for quite some time but now that it’s causing sleep issues I need to go deeper. I also really need to be able to swim.

  142. 142
    SiubhanDuinne says:



  143. 143
    Ruckus says:

    That and remembering that you really won’t die. Or be injured in any way. Had a heart CT, that’s where they inject radioactive die and then use XRays in a rotating cage to develop a moving picture of some structure, in this case the heart and major vessels in and out. That rotating cage flying around you was a little disheartening as I’m not used to being inside moving machinery.

  144. 144
    Baud says:


    Well, I’m glad they got help. Hopefully they will now help spread the word.

  145. 145
    JPL says:

    @Aji: It’s a beautiful way to think of life and death.

  146. 146
    Aji says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Thank you, hon.

    And it’s a lovely way of looking at it, isn’t it?

  147. 147
    raven says:

    @Baud: That’s the rub, my brother is worried they won’t.

  148. 148
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    LOL, what a lovely anecdote!

  149. 149
    rda909 says:


    …Democrat politicians…

    Dude, your slip is showing.

  150. 150
    Baud says:


    Then I stand by my original statement.

  151. 151
    Aji says:

    @raven: [Snorfle] thanks, hon! Now I’ll have to compress my head back down to normal size . . . . :-D

    Actually, the horse has turned into a real beauty. You shoulda seen what he looked like when he showed up here in April.

  152. 152
    Violet says:

    @raven: A friend who took up swimming ended up with a shoulder injury. The doctor said he needed to cross-train so as to keep other muscles strong and working. It’s probably not the case that swimming injured your bicep, but something to think about in any case if it turns out it isn’t torn. Also, I’m doing some therapy to get various muscles in and around my back and hip to get back to work. They aren’t firing in the proper order and it’s part of the reason I’ve still got problems with my hip. Some therapy like that can help too. Just things to keep in mind in case it isn’t a tear.

  153. 153
    raven says:

    @Aji: Our cocker got dumped in a box on our vet’s front door 4 years ago. She was underfed, filthy, peeing blood and her eyes were trashed. Look at her now.

  154. 154
    Ruckus says:

    The tides come in, the tides go out. Our days move on but how good or bad they are depends on how we see them. You see them as positive, so they can be. Some see them only as negative so that’s the best they can do. Even when I’ve been at my lowest ebb I used to say that the glass is only 1/32 full. But that means it still has something positive in it. Others see it as less than it can be and are angry about that. One day our glass will be empty. But not until that last day.

  155. 155
    raven says:

    @Violet: Of course the worst thing is that I know all that. I had to give up hoops and then running and I felt so lucky that I could enjoy swimming as much as I do. I have convinced myself that it’s good enough even though I know I should do flexibility and strength work. The swimming didn’t cause it but it sure has added stress. I was happy that the doc was very encouraging about my prospects.

  156. 156
    satby says:

    @Cain, may your uncle rest in peace as well. Sorry for your loss and how sudden it seems to have been.

  157. 157
    Ruckus says:

    Your dog looks so much like Bud, my rescue cocker. I say rescue because that’s what he did for me. I know you’ve told us her name but I don’t remember, brain fart as it were.

  158. 158
    The Pale Scot says:


    Does this mean we get to keep all the new antibiotics?

    I have a Dream, I dream that I will win the Mega whatever and use the hundreds of millions of dollars to create the Con that finally beats the greatest con contrived thus far. That money will create the most persuasive yet stupidest rightwingnut who’ll convince all religious fundamentalists of all stripes to cheerfully move onto reservations set aside for them and eschew all knowledge and technologies that aren’t in their magic books describing the Previous Greatest Con. And spend their days lovingly beating each other over the heads with rocks as they argue over whether it’s meant that everyone should wear One Shoe, or to Go About Collecting Shoes.

    And leave the rest of us the fuck out of it.

  159. 159
    Violet says:

    @raven: The older I get, the harder I have to work just to stay in the shape I’m in, let alone get in better shape. I find stretching and foam rolling to be essential. Have you done yoga? It’s great for balance and stretching, although you need to find the right teacher/class. Some of the youngsters and their hot yoga or “Yogalates” or whatever are a bit much for me.

    Best of luck with it and keep us updated on what you find out from the MRI.

  160. 160
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Roger Moore:

    A couple of days ago, I set foot in a Walmart store for, I think, only the third time in my life. Had to accompany/drive an elderly relative who insists on getting her toenails cut there instead of at any of the millions of nail salons within a three-block radius of her house.

    Anyhow, just sitting there for 15 minutes or so creeped me out. Every employee (excuse me, i mean associate) I saw looked angry, sad, depressed, sullen. Although there was one guy mindlessly pushing a big dry-mop around the floor, the whole place felt kind of grimy. Lights were erratic, and there was a general atmosphere of dimness. And while I didn’t walk around any of the aisles, there was a kind of random feel to the place.

    Our next stop was Costco, and I could hardly believe the difference! Clean store, well-stocked shelves, cheerful and knowledgeable employees — it was truly a night-and-day difference. Admittedly I went in with some preconceptions, but I also think, objectively, that both stores very clearly reflect corporate outlooks and business models. It was quite the eye-opener, seeing them back-to-back.

  161. 161
    raven says:

    @Ruckus: Lil Bit

  162. 162
    raven says:

    @Violet: Yea, I did Yoga for a while. Like I said, I talked myself into the idea that 200 dam miles a year in the pool was enough. One thing for me is that I knock the swim out at noon and it fits quite well.

  163. 163
    Ruckus says:


  164. 164
    Aji says:

    @JPL: I agree. And I’ll be the first to admit that regarding it that way makes the process easier.

  165. 165
    Violet says:

    @raven: I think of it like monoculture. It’s not good for plants if only one thing is being grown and it’s not good for people if you only do the same exercise over and over again. You have to get those other muscles moving. When a family member trained for the marathon the training group had everyone do all sorts of things to train other parts of the body, including planks and push ups for core and upper body strengthening, and running in all sorts of crazy ways to get other muscles in the legs working. They’d look like the Ministry of Silly Walks with their weird zig zags and high kicks and sideways stepping. Worked pretty well, though.

  166. 166
    raven says:

    @Violet: If I didn’t know that I’d feel less stupid.

  167. 167


    I’m so sorry. It seems pretty common this time of year — my dad got through Christmas and New Year’s last year and died on January 3rd, so we’re coming up on one year.

  168. 168


    I can sometimes see the importance of sucking it up to deal with an annoying first-degree relative (grandparent, parent, sibling, child). An uncle? Meh, life’s too short. You made the right decision.

  169. 169
    Violet says:

    @raven: Feeling stupid isn’t helping your arm. You are where you are. I sure know I should do various exercises to keep my leg/hip/back from being a problem but do I? Not all the time. Then something hurts and I’m like, “Oh yeah, I haven’t been foam rolling/stretching/strengthening.” You’d think after three years I’d have learned, but noooo…. I was back at the therapy guy today because my lack of doing those things caused me a problem in early December and having to get it treated again.

  170. 170
    Aji says:

    @raven: Aw, what a beautiful sweet face. Glad she found her way to you two.

    Here’s a link to Miskwaki both before and after (the “after” being less than three weeks later). The latest visitor looks bad, but Miskwaki was nearly dead.

    [Anyone looking at that link for the first time: If you can’t take photos of animals in really bad shape, you may want to skip it.]

  171. 171
    Aji says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Hiya, darlin’. A year now? I’m so sorry. That’s gotta make the new year’s thing incredibly tough.

    And I know you know how we felt about Carter. Elder brother.

  172. 172
    raven says:

    @Aji: Aw, such a gift to save the big dog. I don’t think we’ve met, you’re near the high country huh?

  173. 173
    Violet says:

    @Aji: The light in your photos is so gorgeous. I was in Santa Fe this summer but didn’t make it to Taos. Went to Taos quite a few years ago now. Beautiful. Such lovely country.

  174. 174
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    Mnem, I had forgotten that your dad died right around/right after the holidays. Any of us who has had that kind of loss knows what that first year is like — the excruciating anticipation, and just getting through,, birthday, anniversary, special family occasion. You never entirely forget, but those built-in calendars do eventually get easier.

    Been thinking a lot about my own dad recently. He would have turned 100 years old in 2014 and I am peculiarly aware of this as the new year looms.

    Also, 2014 would have marked my own 50th wedding anniversary, and the 70th anniversary of the more-or-less simultaneous birth and death of a younger sister. So I am wallowing in the past, a bit more than usual, as well as eagerly anticipating what 2014 has in store. I guess that’s part of what the old Roman god Janus was all about. (As the goddess of Memory, I expect I’m not saying a thing you don’t already know!)

  175. 175
    JPL says:

    @Hungry Joe: Hopefully you see this but I’ll post it anyway… Recently the NyTimes had toke in the crossword puzzle and I mentioned to a friend that it took me a letter to get it. She said don’t you remember that song.. One toke over the line. Thanks for the link which I just sent her.

  176. 176


    Thanks. My mother-in-law said the hardest time would be the weeks leading up to the anniversary and not the anniversary itself, and she was right, so don’t be surprised to find yourself grieving all over again next year about a month before the anniversary.

    Christmas was hard because it was my day’s favorite holiday and my mom decided to stay in Arizona for it. We ended up being really proud of her, though, because she decided to volunteer to serve Christmas dinner at the homeless shelter that day. She said it was really sad (especially seeing the kids) but she felt good about doing it.

  177. 177
    Violet says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Good for your mom! That’s a great thing to do. Helping others can definitely help put things in perspective.

  178. 178
    Aji says:

    @raven: Yeah, around 7,500 feet here. We’ve got 25 acres, a lot of it still wild, several fields of grass hay and alfalfa, plus our gardens. Originally, it was three horses (2 of them rescues), then we took in a boarder horse who has decided that she owns us. Then Miskwaki showed up, and now Ice. In terms of wild visitors, we’ve had everything from rabbits and weasels to snakes and salamanders, a herd of elk every winter, several birds and a mortally wounded skunk that we rescued, and even a bear [LOL – that we did NOT rescue; just let him do his thing]. The dogs are all rescues, some with us for 13 years now. Only the chickens were not – well, unless you consider buying them from the feed store “rescuing” them. Maybe it was, since they’ve got a big free-range area now.

  179. 179
    raven says:

    @Aji: Nice.

  180. 180
    Aji says:

    @Violet: If you ever get back this way, be sure to let me know. In terms of the light, the absolute best time ever to visit is early- to mid-October. It’s magic. Also comfortable – not at all hot, but in the daytime, not cold, either, and the foliage colors and the clarity of the air are just unbelievable.

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone): Your mom sounds way cool. That’s great. As to your m-i-l, yeah, she’s absolutely right. In my experience, the dread that builds up prior to such anniversaries is almost always worse than the day itself. I go through that with my sisters’ “anniversaries,” and with those of Wings’s dad and older brother.

  181. 181
    The Fat Kate Middleton says:

    @Aji: I am sorry, Aji. What a wonderful spirit he seems to have been. May he walk in beauty …

  182. 182
    Violet says:

    @Aji: Will do! No plans to head that way but you never know. Santa Fe can make a nice long weekend if you’ve got the time and money.

  183. 183
    Aji says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton: Thank you. He was one of a kind. A warrior in all the best senses of the word, and in this household, a hero.

    @Violet: If the time ever comes that you do make the trip, the drive from Santa Fe to Taos is worth it all by itself. If you’re really lucky (usually a winter phenomenon, though), you may see bald eagles along the Quartzite River through the canyon. :-)

  184. 184
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Aji: I’m so sorry for your loss. As the saying goes, there are people who die too young no matter how long they may have spent in this life.

    And thank you for the link, too.

  185. 185
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @cathyx: I apologize for not doing in depth research in response to your question.

  186. 186
    Violet says:

    @Aji: Yeah, that’s what I did the previous time. I was staying in Santa Fe with a friend and we decided to go to Taos for the day. Utterly gorgeous drive. We were there in September, so after the worst of the summer crowds. It was remarkably quiet.

  187. 187
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Cain: My condolences on your loss.

  188. 188
    Aji says:

    @Anne Laurie: Thank you, Anne Laurie. And you’re welcome. For folks who didn’t know him, he’s an incredible person to get to know, even if only in print.

  189. 189
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:


    That must have been one hell of a sea battle.

    It was

  190. 190
    danielx says:

    In 2009, 54 percent of Republicans claimed to believe humans have evolved over time. Today, only 43 percent say so.

    Don’t believe in evolution, eh? Hope they all get MRSA, that will make them believers.

  191. 191
    Elie says:

    I would like to see how the question is asked and its context as well as the demographics and sampling strategy. I just do not accept that 60% do not believe in evolution.

    Thankfully, it is not necessary for idiots to believe in it for it still nonetheless to be true and operating. Maybe some of these folks will become extinct or evolve to have brains bigger than walnuts eventually

  192. 192
    Elie says:


    Of course they will not evolve individually, but their descendants will — hopefully —

  193. 193
    Elie says:


    Condolences on your loss….

  194. 194
    Bill Arnold says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    They believe in microevolutuion. Animal and plant breeding and such. They just don’t believe in macroevolution.

    One can chose to interpret Leviticus 19:19 as God’s joke (thinking ahead 2.x thousand years) on biblical creationists, since reproductive isolation (and time) is an important part of speciation. “Do not mix kinds”, because by doing so you interfere with reproductive isolation, hence with speciation, which is how species were and are made; don’t interfere with the processes set up by god, you nitwits. :-) Still working on an (amusing) interpretation for the linen/wool mixing prohibition. (Comedic flourish perhaps, like Ghostbusters’ “Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together”.)

  195. 195
    pluege says:

    a poster on another thread made the point which may have some merit that the big drop in republicans believing in science may reflect at least in part the more intelligent republicans (I know – oxymoron) refusing to identify anymore as republican.

  196. 196
    Cain says:

    I’ll post this on a different open thread, but thank you all for your condolences.

  197. 197
    JustRuss says:

    @Roger Moore:

    If WalMart is saving money, it’s by cutting corners somewhere, either on coverage quality- not renting towers in less populated areas- or customer service.

    Not necessarily. Assuming the big cell carriers are making huge profits (Im betting yes), then there’s room for a competitor to undercut them. I’m not usually one to cheer for Walmart, but against the cell companies…

  198. 198
    sherparick says:

    @Baud: Much like climate science, the fact of biological evolution (Darwin’s Theory of Natural Selection being the best hypothesis to date explaining the “fact” of the origin of species), has become a “tribal marker” over the last 30 years. In the late 1970s, the wealthy and their experts of psychology and politics started working on various narratives to divide the working classes in the post New Deal, post Civil Rights period. Fundamentalist religion became the tool which gave passion to the “New Right,” and direct their disappointment and anger about life in the “right direction” – at hippies, Blacks, Browns, women libbers, and Government programs for “those people.”

  199. 199
    Ron Thompson says:

    The headline in “The Wire” is misleading. It’s far more likely that quite a few people who accept evolution have left the Republican Party, while many who do not accept evolution have joined it (such as people who live in the South or Appalachia).

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