Kill at Will bill moves forward in Ohio

Weapon industry lobbyists drafted a stand your ground law for Ohio. It passed the lower chamber in this state last week:

Opponents including black legislators, youth and church groups decried the dangers of an Ohio “stand your ground” self-defense proposal on Wednesday, as the expansive gun measure cleared the state House. Protesters at one point interrupted the lengthy debate, their shouts gaveled down by House Speaker William Batchelder, before the measure passed on a 62-27 vote. It now goes to the Senate.
Under current law, residents need not retreat before using force if they are lawfully in their homes, vehicles or the vehicle of an immediate family member. The measure would expand the circumstances where the use of force trumps the duty to retreat to public settings, such as stores and streets.

Industry lobbyists (both paid and the volunteers) will say that they are making only minor changes to self defense laws, but that is not true. This is what the changes to long-standing Ohio self-defense law actually look like. The traditional definition of self-defense is lined-thru and the new definition of self defense follows the part that lobbyists deleted:

Sec. 2901.09. (A) As used in this section, “residence” and “vehicle” have the same meanings as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code.

(B) For purposes of any section of the Revised Code that sets forth a criminal offense, a person who lawfully is in that person’s residence has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of that person’s residence, and a person who lawfully is an occupant of that person’s vehicle or who lawfully is an occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of the person has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense or defense of another if that person is in a place that the person lawfully has a right to be.

The bill also lowers the standards across the board to where we’ll now issue concealed carry licenses to just about anyone who shows up and also allow these newly-licensed gun enthusiasts to patrol just about anywhere with only 4 hours of training. Apparently 12 hours of training before they appoint themselves as roving fake-police in “stores and streets” was too much of a burden for them:

Eliminate the requirement that a person reside in Ohio to receive or renew a concealed handgun license;
Eliminate the current 12-hour training requirement, substituting a minimum of four training hours in the safe handling and use of a firearm;

The Buckeye Firearms Foundation pushed the Stand Your Ground law in Ohio, along with the reduced training requirement. This weapon industry lobby group are famous for raising money to buy George Zimmerman some additional firepower after Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old:


Zimmerman is the brave gunslinger who has been the victim of a truly remarkable (and, frankly, completely unbelievable) series of unprovoked attacks by the following people: his former girlfriend, a law enforcement official, a 17 year old boy, his wife and/or his elderly father-in-law and, most recently, another of his girlfriends.

75 replies
  1. 1
    Aji says:

    MUCH more accurate name for the bill. Can we agree to use this in place of SYG now?

  2. 2
    greennotGreen says:

    How is it that you can have no duty to retreat when you’re in a frickin’ car?

  3. 3
    Higgs Boson's Mate (Crystal Set) says:

    The Buckeye State becomes the Buckshot State.

  4. 4
    Cacti says:

    Kill at Will or Shoot First bill.

    Either one works.

  5. 5
    Ruckus says:

    Sorry to say this but I’m glad I moved out of OH a few yrs ago. Not that it is a lot more sane in CA but every little bit helps.

    So now a serious question.
    Are the gun nuts going to keep at it till everyone is dead? Last idiot standing and all that. What else can possibly be the agenda other than everyone you don’t like dies? People didn’t carry/want to use guns at this level in the old wild west.

  6. 6
    scav says:

    NRA Stop and Frisk would only stop white men, checking that they’re armed, locked, loaded and ready for immediate Fear For Their Lives.

  7. 7
    Hunter Gathers says:

    I like Kill At Will, but License To Murder Minorities would be more apt.

  8. 8
    sparrow says:

    This is just putting in place a legal structure that can be used to further ensure there are really two legal systems. One for the haves (i.e., white males), and one for the “other” classes (women, gays, and most importantly, blacks and other minorities).

    It will be “stand your ground” when a white guy shoots a “thug” (regardless of actual thuggery, or the fact that the white guy started any confrontation), and it will be murder when any white guy is shot.

    I fucking hate these people.

  9. 9
    Cacti says:

    Speaking of shooting first…

    Geraldo decides that George Zimmerman might be a creep after all, but still insists a hooded sweatshirt is to blame for Trayvon Martin’s death.

  10. 10
    kc says:

    In SC Stand Your Ground means you get to shoot innocent bystanders as well:

  11. 11
    scav says:

    @Cacti: Even creepy white boys outrank (and outfear) all other creatures on the planet. Ladder of being, scala naturae reborn. Know your place in this NeoMedieval wonderland and act accordingly.

  12. 12
    kc says:

    Weapon industry lobbyists drafted a stand your ground law

    What’s next, drunks drafting DUI laws?

  13. 13

    @Ruckus: What else can possibly be the agenda other than everyone you don’t like dies? cough*PROFITS*cough

  14. 14
    Suzanne says:

    @kc: I know you were being facetious, but I know plenty of people, all of whom are twenty something hipster douchebags who party every weekend, that think DUI laws are just horrible onerous excessively punitive abominations unto the Lord. As if spending a few days in Tent City for doing something that could kill people was totally like Nazi Germany.

  15. 15
    jc says:

    Whatever the problem is, aiming your gun or your car or your missiles at it always seems to be the answer to right-wingers.

    Some people are objecting to Wall St. A-holes destroying the country’s economic health? Just point that pepper spray can at them and push the button. Problem solved!

    The people on the right are not well, and they’d deserve our pity if they weren’t trying to take us down with them.

  16. 16
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    This… will be interesting to watch. They can pass it, but we still have a referendum process here. See: Senate Bill 5. I really want to see what happens if/when this gets to the voters.

  17. 17
    Chyron HR says:


    I hear the fetus can have a hoodie as early as eight weeks. Maybe we should give Zimmy’s girlfriend a mandatory ultrasound.

  18. 18
    Higgs Boson's Mate (Crystal Set) says:

    I hear that the Ohio state lege is drafting a bill to prevent lung cancer. It will enable children as young as twelve to openly smoke cigarettes.

  19. 19
    Frankensteinbeck says:

    The end goal is to transform into Rambo and be feared and respected by everyone and never have to fear or respect anyone again. Side effects may include That Bitch Crawling Back or never being attracted to another man again.

  20. 20
    chopper says:

    boy, that Zimmerman just can’t catch a break, can he?

  21. 21
    WereBear says:

    @Ruckus: Heck, I fled the Midwest at six (my mother’s idea) and the South at nineteen (my own idea.)

    The people whining about the tax burden of living in New York just have no freakin’ idea.

  22. 22
    Ruckus says:

    That’s the gun lobby and their paymasters, the gun/ammunition mfg. That’s the profit rational.

    I’m talking about the gun nuts, the dudes(and they are not all dudes) with 10-30 guns, more ammunition than we carried on the destroyer I was stationed on, and a dick the size of an ant.

  23. 23
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    So after Florida, this is Kill At Will Bill Part 2?

    See if they’d name these things after Tarantino movies people would have a much better idea of what they’re about. Then Zimmerman’s defense could be named Pulp Fiction.

  24. 24


    What’s next, drunks drafting DUI laws?

    That’s unfair. It’s more like bars, liquor stores, and the alcoholic beverage industry drafting drunk driving laws.

  25. 25
    Ruckus says:

    I only moved to OH for a job. The biggest adjustment was how different the culture was. The first year was pretty good but after that… I didn’t expect that much difference. Did over hear in the gym once in OH, first says to second, I thought you were moving? Second says, We are getting the fuck out the day the kid graduates HS, leaving this miserable shit hole forever. I understood perfectly. It didn’t grow on me, it grated.
    I know people who like living there but it is just not for me.

  26. 26
    Frankensteinbeck says:

    See above. All conservative gun laws, attitudes about guns, and most military policy positions make sense if you look at them as if you were about to transform into Rambo any minute now.

  27. 27
    Higgs Boson's Mate (Crystal Set) says:


    I’m talking about the gun nuts, the dudes(and they are not all dudes) with 10-30 guns, more ammunition than we carried on the destroyer I was stationed on, and a dick the size of an ant.

    I can’t fathom what these people are so afraid of. We’re not being invaded, there are no angry mobs torching our cities yet the gun nuts are packing more heat than we carried in Viet-effing-nam.

  28. 28

    @Chyron HR:

    Maybe we should give Zimmy’s girlfriend a mandatory ultrasound.

    I’m pretty sure his original equipment is shooting blanks, which is why he’s so desperate for a substitute.

  29. 29
    Higgs Boson's Mate (Crystal Set) says:

    @Roger Moore:
    Pistola pequeño.

  30. 30
    scav says:

    Video games are too violent in those CGI mean streets and a threat to the holy children, but our actual streets and neighborhoods are apparently not violent enough and a threat to same. If kidlets are going to exposed to gunfire, let’s make sure it’s nothing less than the real deal. They deserve the best, right?

  31. 31
    balconesfault says:

    In combination with the new media hysteria over the “knockout game”, I’m wondering if approaching any group of black teens on the street will be justifiable reason for unloading a dozen or so semi-automatic rounds.

  32. 32
    Ruckus says:

    Agreed. I’m like @Higgs Boson’s Mate (Crystal Set): , what the fuck are they so scared of? It’s not rational in any way shape or form. Sure there is some level of danger every where, earthquakes, tornados, lightning storms, cold/ice/snow, and yes, very occasionally someone wants to take your stuff. Far less often there is someone who wants to use you as a food source or for target practice. But the level of danger that a gun could very, very, very, unlikely make better are so rare as to be almost immeasurable.

  33. 33
    Higgs Boson's Mate (Crystal Set) says:

    Via The Smoking Gun:

    NOVEMBER 22–An 81-year-old “birther” was arrested today and charged with threatening President Barack Obama’s life, according to federal court records.

    Prosecutors allege that Elwyn Nels Fossedal was in a post office near his Wisconsin home last month when he announced, “If President Obama was here I would shoot him right there and kill him right now.”

    When Secret Service agents confronted Fossedal about the threat–which was relayed to law enforcement by witnesses–he would not recant the statement and “repeated the threat using different words. He also made a number of additional threats towards the President,” according to a felony complaint.

  34. 34
    greennotGreen says:

    @Ruckus: I think it’s more Dick Dysmorphic Disorder – it’s not that they physically have small dicks; it’s that they think/fear that they have small dicks. Actual facts will not dissuade them.

  35. 35
    Mike in NC says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate (Crystal Set):

    We’re not being invaded, there are no angry mobs torching our cities yet the gun nuts are packing more heat than we carried in Viet-effing-nam.

    But the “news” sources that these dweebs go to every single day tell them that the crime rate has been skyrocketing for years and that unruly gangs of young bucks are terrorizing the countryside in their search for t-bone steaks.

  36. 36
    WereBear says:

    @Ruckus: It’s my theory that these people had very uncertain and unreliable childhoods, no matter how financially secure they looked from the outside.

    Dads and moms who randomly lashed out, for instance. They came by the paranoia in understandable ways, courtesy of hard-line child-rearing that my own parents, thankfully, repudiated.

  37. 37
  38. 38
    Pogonip says:

    @Ruckus: What are the biggest differences you have noticed between California and Ohio (not counting the weather)? I’ve lived in the South, which I didn’t like, and the Midwest which is OK except for the weather.

    Cincinnati is legally Ohio but people there think like Southerners, in my experience.

  39. 39
    j says:

    On the same note, the Rock Island Armory is holding what it claims to be the world’s largest gun and rifle auction on December 6, 7, & 8. Along with GUNZ!!~ GUNZ!! GUNZ!!! they will also have a matched pair of pistols and a Western belt buckle given to St. Ronny, as well as an authentic JFK rocking chair that you can have your picture taken beside; for all those who don’t get the irony of 2 presidents who were shot being used to sell guns at a no-background-check gun show.

    Here is the buckle and chair ad: (Scroll to page 16)


    And here is the whole catalog of items open to bidding:


    It’s fun for the whole family! Just imagine little Susie and Jimmy’s eyes on Christmas morning when they open their first box of ammo!~ Awwww.

  40. 40
    Pogonip says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate (Crystal Set): A few weeks ago I ws at a drive-thru with a most unusual truck ahead of me. Imagine a pickup sliced in half lengthwise, from nose to tailgate. Then imagine the sides glued onto another truck. That’s what was ahead of me. I try very hard not to be the stereotypical man-hating American female who thinks everything is about pistol size, but I admit on that day I was chuckling and thinking “Dude, sorry about the size of your…”. The thing (the truck, that is) was also jacked about five feet off the ground and had enormous tires.

  41. 41
    mai naem says:

    Nothing’s going to happen until the GOP loses one of their own to senseless gun violence. I am not advocating somebody doing it. Just that nothing’s going to happen until some nutcase kills some beloved GOPr and family.

  42. 42
    John Revolta says:

    When the only tool you have is a gun, every problem looks like a ni*CLANG*

  43. 43
    Ruckus says:

    This is entirely possible. And for me a cop out. Yes I know we are products of our environments and our parents, but many of us had bad upbringings and don’t turn into gun nuts or racists or fundamentalists or…. We are at some point adults, if not in mental age at least in physical age. We have minds and are supposed to be capable of independent thought and reason. To be able to observe the world around us and have a modicum of understanding.
    Of course I realize that the above is wishful thinking and that most of us go through life with blinders and shit colored glasses on and that no matter how much reality we encounter, the surreal and irrational will always have a stronger mental image.

  44. 44
    Ash Can says:

    @Mike in NC: Furthermore, having a Kenyan Muslim Marxist ni*CLANG* in the White House means all of, ahem, those people will be given special favors and rights and armaments and tanks and shit and be set loose upon all the Real (i.e. White) Americans at any time, so all these patriotic law-abiding white folks are just arming themselves for the race war that’s going to start any day now.

  45. 45
    greennotGreen says:

    @Ash Can: So think about this: if a black President can be presumed to dole out special favors to black people, wouldn’t that mean that white Presidents had doled out special favors to white people since…forever? And that men would favor men…and so women of color have never gotten anything? If that’s the case, wouldn’t it be time to even things up a bit?

    But it’s always projection with conservatives.

  46. 46
    Ruckus says:

    It is hard to put into words but for me it was like moving to another country. People’s experiences and their responses to them where just different. Even in the cities the idea that everyone was involved in some way in farming seemed to be an overriding theme. And that this was the best place to be because OHIO. It was like most everyone had to justify living there, not because that’s where they were born but because it was so great. When clearly for many it was not great at all. It was home and that’s a good enough reason to live someplace but that was not the vibe I got.
    Everything seemed to revolve around the notion of NO. A much more calvinistic system than CA.

  47. 47
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-: As a former resident of Licking County, Ohio(Newark) This ain’t SB-5 it will pass with vigor! After all you don’t know if some gangster from Columbus’ East Side might come to good ole Frazeysburg just do some gangster shit to Joe-Clyde and his missus. That is why they needenough weapons and ammo to repel ZEE Germans.

  48. 48
    WereBear says:

    @Ruckus: Well, you are right in a lot of ways.

    We should never consider the task of maturation DONE, for instance. And becoming adults bestows on us the power of completing, or redoing, that task which might have been botched the first time.

    I work towards the day our society realizes what we’ve been discussing.

  49. 49
    rikyrah says:


    did you see my messages last week about an Ed Show segment talking about all the voter suppression bills that the GOP is now trying to pass, which would mess with:
    absentee ballots
    take away discretion from the Secretary of State’s office
    lower the actual number of voting machines
    and mess with provisional ballots

    The Ed Show 11/19/13

    OHI-NO you can’t easily vote

    Republican governors in key swing states are working to turn them red through selective voting ID laws. Ed Schultz and Ohio State Sen. Nina Turner discuss.

    it’s in the 18-20 section of 40 possible videos|ps|Google|b-theedshow|msnbc_the_ed_show

  50. 50
    Ash Can says:

    @greennotGreen: Pish posh. The white folks earned their favors, you see, through hard work and clean living. After all, it’s not easy slaving over a desk in a nice heated/air-conditioned office every day. And maybe they dabble in recreational narcotics once in a while, but not nearly as much as those inner-city folks, that’s for sure, and their bosses understand if they come to work a little hungover. And if the cops in their neighborhoods take it a little easier on them than on the folks in the rougher neighborhoods, or if they happened to get their jobs because of what employers code-name “professional appearance,” hey, it’s not their fault that they were born white, and you’re the real racist for noticing that anyway.

  51. 51
    greennotGreen says:

    @Ash Can: Good point.

  52. 52
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    OT but Chuck Schumer is “disappointed” with the Administration and its Iran deal:

    “I am disappointed by the terms of the agreement between Iran and the P5+1 nations because it does not seem proportional,” he said in a written statement.

    Schumer added that to be even-handed and proportional, the agreement should limit Iran to exactly the same degree that Israel’s nuclear program is limited, i.e. not at all.

    He then looked very confused, said “Wait… uh we’ll get back to you…” and wandered off.

  53. 53
    Bill Arnold says:


    Kill at Will or Shoot First bill.

    Either one works.

    Or “Dead people tell no tales” bill though that’s a bit too wordy.

  54. 54

    @Ruckus: Working on their aim and hand-loads while the soulless two-bit ratfuck criminal enterprises clear the way for being to able to legally shoot anyone, anything, whenever and wherever they wish: liberals, minorities, women, poor people, pick a fucking target.

    This shit ain’t gonna stop until some Republican* lawmakers get fragged.

    *PS, Dems don’t count.

  55. 55
    Ash Can says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate (Crystal Set):

    When Secret Service agents confronted Fossedal about the threat…he would not recant the statement and “repeated the threat using different words. He also made a number of additional threats towards the President,” according to a felony complaint.

    In the matter of holes, there’s stopping the digging and there’s continuing the digging. And then there’s busting out the heavy machinery and drilling through the earth’s core all the way to the fucking Indian Ocean.

  56. 56
    max says:

    {reads thread} Screw it, I second the entire thread.

    @Bill E Pilgrim: OT but Chuck Schumer is “disappointed” with the Administration and its Iran deal:

    Yeah, he can tell it to all the (black) guys doing fifty years in prison on crack possession charges.

    [‘We just wanted one teensy weensy little war…’]

  57. 57
    greennotGreen says:

    @BruceFromOhio: No, it still won’t stop if a Republican gets fragged because Republicans have no empathy outside their immediate family, if then.

  58. 58
    scav says:

    @BruceFromOhio: They won’t impose laws at that point, at least not laws that benefit anyone but their golden gated selves. Sending in massive, preferably outsourced, certainly tanked and swatted up, police presence into the non-gilt pre-guilty environs is more likely.

  59. 59

    @greennotGreen: Perhaps, but there is the innate ability to look out for their own asses that is hard to ignore. THAT will be the motivator.

  60. 60
    Yatsuno says:

    @Bill E Pilgrim: Schumer, like every other Noo Yahk politician, is in the pocket of AIPAC. He’s gonna do Bibi’s bidding here because that’s what his paymasters want. Plus Benny needs a Big Ebil to justify his Palestinian policies and Iran is more than willing to play along since their politicians get the same benefit. I personally would love to visit Iran someday (can’t for complicated and numerous reasons) and this step makes that more possible. What no one gets (including China) is that Iran just wants to be left alone to handle their own affairs.

  61. 61
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate (Crystal Set):

    The Secret Service also might want to pay a call on Everest Wilhelmsen, as long as they’re up.

  62. 62
    kc says:

    If I had Koch-level bucks I’d sponsor CWP training and permits for every adult person of color in the U.S.

  63. 63
    Schlemizel says:

    I keep hoping that meteor hurries the fuck up and gets here soon

  64. 64
    Jay S says:


    What no one gets (including China) is that Iran just wants to be left alone to handle their own affairs.

    Well … “just wants to be left alone” does include Iran attempting to actively interfere with her neighbors and enemies ability to interfere with Iran.

  65. 65
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Jay S:
    That is in itself entirely legitimate, so what’s your point?

  66. 66
    gogol's wife says:

    @mai naem:

    Reagan didn’t impress them? I don’t think it would make one bit of difference.

  67. 67
    scav says:

    @Jay S: Horrors! What’s next, an Iranian Monroe Doctrine? Not saints, but if you’re looking for countries actively hoping and enabling their neighbors’ invasion plans, take a flashlight. Epidemic of national clay feet on that subject. Some of the clay feet are slightly more prone to activity and pre-emptive activity, to be fair.

  68. 68
    Bubba Dave says:

    I’ve been know to think that if Bloomberg really wanted gun control passed, he’d have spend $1m on paying for 2000 AKs for New Black Panthers. Imagine at 20 gun shows, each has a group of 100 black dudes show up and purchase an AK with a couple of magazines. I think the first gun control bill would be on the President’s desk before the gun show closed for the day….

  69. 69
    Bubba Dave says:

    Also, I do not have permission to edit that comment and fix the typos because FYWP.

  70. 70
    Jay S says:

    @Amir Khalid: My point is that Iran wanting to be left alone isn’t passive, as might be inferred from Yutsano’s comment. Indeed some of their steps are threating to their neighbors.

    That said engaging them in diplomacy is a good thing, in that it can minimize their desire to destabilize other regimes. Refusing to talk has made matters worse IMHO. You can’t do that without seeing things from their point of view.

  71. 71
    kc says:

    @Bubba Dave:

    Imagine at 20 gun shows, each has a group of 100 black dudes show up and purchase an AK with a couple of magazines. I think the first gun control bill would be on the President’s desk before the gun show closed for the day….

    Yep, that would do it …

  72. 72
    Ruckus says:

    Agreed but on this point I’d really, really like to be proven wrong. Though I think the odds are in favor of the status quo. Well not odds exactly, more like the chances of me winning a 200 million lottery. The only odds I have in my favor are the ability to be in some place at some time, not doing anything wrong but getting screwed in some major way just the same. BTW that isn’t a small boat I’m in, I have lots of company.

  73. 73
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Blacks in Ohio should arm up then. Let’s see if stand your ground laws apply to them as it obviously does to White killers.

  74. 74
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @mai naem: But Reagan was almost killed by a senseless act of gun violence and that hasn’t changed anything.

  75. 75
    Nutella says:


    One thing that struck me about Michigan is the prevalence of hunting, not just in rural areas, but in suburbs. When I lived there in the 90s the Detroit newspapers sports pages covered deer hunting at least as thoroughly as they covered football.

    I expect it’s similar in Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc.

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