Open Thread: “Experts Agree: Meese Is A Pig!”

The re-emergence of Reagan-lamprey Ed Meese figureheading the latest Koch Brothers assault on our democracy inspired some pre-Internet nostalgia from TNR‘s Michael Schaeffer:

For people who followed politics, of course, Meese was the guy behind some of Reagan’s most divisive policies. But ordinary commuters also experienced the Meese-bashing in ways they didn’t with other officials: During the last couple years of the Reagan administration, walls, construction sites, traffic signal boxes, and highway overpasses throughout the Washington area were festooned with giant posters that read “Meese is a Pig.” Soon afterwards, a second series of the poster appeared, with an additional two words: “Experts Agree!”

The campaign, in turn, drew ample national media coverage and represented something of a cultural moment—a pre-web meme of sorts. Stores began selling T-shirts bearing the same message.

Now, with Meese’s allegedly porcine mug gracing the front of the paper of record again, I reached out to Jeff Nelson, the man behind the original poster campaign. “Meese did all he could to obstruct justice in the Iran-Contra scandal, and he also helped block action to ban plastic guns, which could pass undetected through metal detectors,” Nelson, now 51, recalls. ” I was so angry, and as a lone citizen I felt so powerless.”

t’s the sort of sentiment that sends people to their laptops nowadays. Nelson and his cohort had to work a bit harder at it. “There were no things such as blogs and tweets,” he says. “Things were much more regional and getting in the National news was a really big deal. At that point I had been silk-screening posters for several years, mostly for bands I played in, using rudimentary homemade equipment in the leaky garage of our rented house. I was so angry that I decided to do a big poster campaign against Meese, and bought the largest paper I could find.”

Smaller print on the posters included a lengthy list of reasons for the declaration, which included ill-treatment of AIDS patients and efforts to weaken Miranda rights, as well as Meese’s role in the Iran-Contra affair….

An inspiration for us all, Mr. Nelson.






174 replies
  1. 1
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Meese was evil before Cheney decided to make a career of evil.

  2. 2
    jl says:

    TPM blog is an endless treat these days for tracking GOP lunacy and general odd behavior:

    Ted Cruz: ‘I Didn’t Say Republicans Will Win’ Shutdown Fight (VIDEO)

    “You talked last night — you were at a Virginia Republican event in Richmond and said Republicans will win this,” Crowley said. “And by that, I believe you meant what you wanted in exchange for a spending bill. What does win this mean to you? What does that have to look like for a Republican victory?”

    But the junior senator from Texas denied the premise of Crowley’s question.

    “Let me be clear, I didn’t say Republicans will win this,” he said. “Listen, I think career politicians in both parties have been part of the problem. What I said is the American people are going to win.”

    After being pressed by Crowley, Cruz attempted to define what a victory for the American people would look like.

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/l.....ight-video

  3. 3
    Garbo says:

    It is no surprise that so many of these assholes, like Meese, sport the sweaty ham head.

  4. 4
    Poopyman says:

    Lamprey? Might you mean Ramora?

  5. 5
    Punchy says:

    Did anyone ever see jailtime for Iran-Contra?

  6. 6
    Chris says:

    … For people who followed politics, of course, Meese was the guy behind some of Reagan’s most divisive policies.

    Ashamed to say I’d never heard of this “Meese” character before today.

    I said in an earlier thread that I’m really, really looking forward to Perlstein’s Ronald Reagan book. The reason for that is that the Reagan administration is the last administration that, towards the end at least, was literally headless – not just that the president was too lazy or bored to govern (like W. Bush), but Alzheimer’s being what it was, was actually incapable of it. Among the things I’m curious to read up on is who, besides Nancy Reagan, was really in charge during those times (and just how long “those times” lasted). By the sound of it, Meese would’ve been among them.

  7. 7
    WereBear says:

    @Garbo: And some people think there is no Goddess.

  8. 8
    Gravenstone says:

    Since this is an open thread, I just wanted to share this little pearl of “wisdom”.

    The barricading of the war memorials in DC and the social media response had me thinking this weekend. So many of those in power on the left came from a history of civil and social disobedience that was celebrated by its peers. Now those progressives (their name, not mine) act outraged by less severe acts of the same vein.

    It is almost as if conservatives are becoming the “radicals” and at the same time, “radical” is all of a sudden becoming a bad word when for 50 years it was a badge of honor.

    Rolling Stone magazine was founded to challenge the social and political orthodoxy of the establishment in the lat 60s (founded 1967). Back then, it was a voice for the hippie culture and bands like The Doors. Now that cadre is in power and the magazine defends them at every turn, attracting readership not through thoughtful opposition but through rhetorical attacks on the new conservative “counter culture.” I put that in quotes because it is such a strange concept for me.

    Is the wheel of history turning full circle? If so, what does that mean for the next 20 years? If you follow me on Facebook, you will see that I posted a NY Time editorial from 1913 OPPOSING the income tax. The NY TIMES! The editorial cites the fact that the income tax in unjust because the honest will pay it while the dishonest won’t. Isn’t that the best anti-income tax argument yet I have heard that from no anti-tax politician during my lifetime.

    I never thought of myself as counter culture, but I am starting to realize that I am. Me. An Anglo/Irish product of white immigrants who came to this country to make their fortune. One did and sold his copper mine to Phelps Dodge in the 1920s for $30 million (a VERY large number in today’s dollars). That money is all but gone over the generations since but the ethic is still an inspiration to me and something I am trying to instill in my kids.

    Storm the barricades you 90 year old vets. You are the hippies now.

    The above was the pile of garbage I stupidly clicked on at a site I’ve largely abandoned, beyond one gaming related forum. The author is a former Wall Streeter, who has moved onto some other position within the financial industry. I post it mostly just to offer a glowing example of the cult of Republican victimization. My question, how does one seriously even begin to engage people who see themselves this way?

  9. 9
    WereBear says:

    @Chris: The reason for that is that the Reagan administration, towards the end at least, seems like it was the only administration that was literally headless – not just that the president was too lazy or bored to govern (like W. Bush), but Alzheimer’s being what it was, was actually incapable of it.

    Alzheimer’s seems to creep in long before anyone realizes. Makes one wonder if he knew much about any of it; he was always a guy playing a role, anyway.

  10. 10

    @Punchy: No. But if they did, Doug Feith would have the cell just down from Oliver North, and across the aisle from John Poindexter.

    Grifters gonna grift.

  11. 11
    Schlemizel says:

    @Poopyman:

    No, lamprey is right. They are really nasty things that attach to the host & suck it dry. They have a mouth that looks like that sand worm thing from Star Wars. A thing of nightmares.

    @Punchy:
    No, Poppy pardoned them all on Christmas Eve so it would be buried & forgotten

  12. 12
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Poopyman: Naw, I think of Meese as more a freshwater, simple-brained, slimy-skinned parasite.

  13. 13
    WereBear says:

    Ed Meese. I’m reminded of the McNamara ferry incident, where someone tried to throw him off the ferry to Martha’s Vineyard, because the person was overwhelmed with all the deaths that hung over McNamara.

    Don’t know how long I could work in DC without causing an incident, you know? It was hard enough biting my tongue today, when a Republican complained about the National Weather Service being down.

  14. 14
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @jl: It’s shit like this that makes me wonder if Ted Cruz is really a sleeper Democrat who’s built this entire facade of being a jerk and an asshole so that he can destroy the GOP from within.

    For all the people who say he’s a really smart guy – basically everyone who’s met him, although they make sure to note he’s an asshole – he’s sure done some really stupid shit (barring some outside explanation).

  15. 15
    Chris says:

    @WereBear:

    I don’t think he ever cared to know much of anything; he was always just the grinning public face of the enterprise. But it does make a difference if he couldn’t know anything.

    Bush was the same “I don’t care, just let the cabinet run everything” asshole, but it seems that he actually did sit up and pay attention after 2006 – not only did he fire Rumsfeld, but he supposedly stopped letting Cheney tell everyone what to do (and Cheney, rumor has it, was actually angling for a third war, with Iran). For a president with Alzheimer’s that’s not in the cards.

  16. 16
    gogol's wife says:

    @Chris:

    I think you underestimate Reagan’s degree of agency during his entire presidency.

  17. 17
    jl says:

    @PsiFighter37: And if you read the link, Cruz goes on to describe pretty much exactly what the American people don’t want, at least according to polling data.

  18. 18
    lamh36 says:

    Breaking: Veterans Benefit Admin Closing Regional Offices Tomorrow!

    Just saw this on Maddow

  19. 19
    Chris says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    I’m pretty sure he had agency at the start, and not at the end – exactly when the shift happened is what I don’t know. But I’m also pretty sure that he chose not to exercise that agency for a lot of the time he was there. Republican presidents, whether it’s him, Bush, or Eisenhower, like to give their cabinets a free hand (Grover Norquist brought that up during the election by saying that it didn’t matter how good or bad of a president Romney would make, all he needed to do was rubber stamp what people like Paul Ryan put in front of him).

    That doesn’t let presidents like that off the hook for the crimes that happen on their watch – as the Bush/latter years example shows, they clearly do have the agency to control policy when they want to. But they often choose not to care enough to do so. I think that’s what Reagan was, at the beginning, and eventually he slid from that into senility.

  20. 20
    gogol's wife says:

    @Chris:

    I think you’re confusing him with George W. Bush. Reagan was an activist politician and a true believer.

    But I’m just basing that on living through it. I haven’t read any books on it. Living through it was enough.

  21. 21
    Svensker says:

    Ed Meese? Ed Meese!?! Why isn’t he dead? Ugh. I was a Republican at the time and I thought Ed Meese was a repulsive excuse for a human.

    On a happier note, Go Jets!

  22. 22
    Chris says:

    @efgoldman:

    I’m not talking about ideology. I’m talking about how the party and its administrations tend to organize themselves.

  23. 23
    David Koch says:

    Aqua Buddha was on MTP yesterday and he said there’s no need to raise the debt ceiling that it’s only a scare tactic by Obama, that all you need to do is cut $675 Billion from the budget by next Thursday, which would produce a balanced budget, eliminating the need to borrow money.

    That’s his solution: cutting $675 Billion dollars over the next 10 days.

    How did any self described liberal ever take this kook seriously?

  24. 24
    raven says:

    @efgoldman:

    If you call that living

    awucka wucka

  25. 25
    Gravenstone says:

    @David Koch: So he’s proposing we eliminate the military? cool.

  26. 26
    Mino says:

    @Punchy: No. A participant conveniently died and they blamed everything on him, if I remember correctly. The CIA guy, William Casey.

    And the Xmas pardons.

  27. 27
    LeftCoastTom says:

    @lamh36:

    Breaking: Veterans Benefit Admin Closing Regional Offices Tomorrow!

    But at least they can visit a memorial…

  28. 28
    raven says:

    @efgoldman: I’m reading a book about WWII in North Africa right now and it’s pretty interesting how fucked up things were and what dopes many of the “delegatees” were!

  29. 29
    lamh36 says:

    @woodhouseb
    Lest anyone thinks #teapartyshutdown isn’t hurting @GOP: McAuliffe widens lead over Cuccinelli amid shutdown backlash
    http://t.co/FHoeVgY5sV

    @aburnspolitico 30m
    . @ppppolls Jensen says VA data “suggest anger over [shutdown] could impact other GOP candidates” outside fed races

  30. 30
    ira- NY says:

    Looked in my Webster’s under political miscreant and there was EM’s pic. Should be in prison eating bread an water on holidays.

  31. 31
    raven says:

    Well shit, halftime of the Falcons game, the Braves are about to start and I’m on the fade. Hello DVR!

  32. 32
    pillsy says:

    There are endless second acts in American lives, at least for wingnut bottom-feeders.

  33. 33
    Baud says:

    @raven:

    I read Jean Edward Smith’s biography of Ike and he was not a fan of Ike’s military aptitude.

  34. 34
    Dave says:

    Jeff Nelson of Minor Threat? Holy shit, I never knew that!

  35. 35
    IowaOldLady says:

    @PsiFighter37: Re whether Cruz is smart: I used to teach in a selective grad program. To be admitted, students scored about the 85th percentile on the GREs. They were smart. But at some point, character or personality enable or limited them as learners and thinkers. One common problem was that they were so used to being smarter than everyone around them, that they couldn’t learn new stuff. They couldn’t rearrange what they thought and have new insights. Cruz looks like that to me.

  36. 36
    Baud says:

    @lamh36:

    Cuccinelli should suspend his campaign and go to Washington to work out a deal.

  37. 37
    raven says:

    @Baud: Yea, more of a manager of people. I was very surprised to read that almost all the military people wanted to invade Europe right away when we got in the war and FDR said “fuck that shit!”

  38. 38
    Chris says:

    @Mino:

    If I recall, he was another one who spent his time in office creeping towards senility.

    But yeah, the way I’d always heard it was that everyone involved who was still alive got pardoned, by H. W. if I recall correctly, so the whole thing ended there.

  39. 39
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Chris:

    Ashamed to say I’d never heard of this “Meese” character before today.</block quote
    Oh, to be so young.

  40. 40
    MikeJ says:

    @Dave: People don’t give the DC punk scene enough respect.

  41. 41
    srv says:

    @efgoldman: You people are so ignorant. The real story on Iran Contra.

    My mom laughed so hard she started choking.

  42. 42
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Oh, FYWP. You knew good and goddamn well that it was supposed to look like this:

    Ashamed to say I’d never heard of this “Meese” character before today.

    Oh, to be so young.

  43. 43
    Suffern ACE says:

    @efgoldman: well he running on his ability to reach across the aisle and compromise. And Cuomo apparently just appointed Pataki to a tax cut commission, so I guess the message from the tri state area is that bi partisan centrism makes us happy.

  44. 44
    Belafon says:

    @Gravenstone: And I would love to know all of the Democratic leaders who “came from a history of civil and social disobedience that was celebrated by its peers.” I bet the only one the guy can accurately name is Forrest Gump.

  45. 45
    lamh36 says:

    @Baud: @efgoldman: The Cuccinelli camp are using tried and true “blame pollster” strategy on this one.

    ‏@MoElleithee 22m
    Shockingly, Cuccinelli campaign disputes POLITICO poll. Interesting strategy attacking pollsters. Maybe GOP should have tried that in 2012.
    https://twitter.com/MoElleithee/status/387389707262255104

  46. 46
    MikeJ says:

    @efgoldman:

    Anybody heard a peep from Christie in NJ about this bullshit? Any local media ask him?

    Same as the McCain approach:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....-shutdown/

    “My approach would be, as the executive, to call in the leaders of Congress, or the legislature or whatever you’re dealing with, and say we’re not leaving this room until we fix this problem because I’m the boss. I’m in charge.”

  47. 47
    lamh36 says:

    @Lawrence 1h
    Republicans aren’t trying to shut down government; they are trying to shut down President Obama. @TheLastWord at 10pm
    https://twitter.com/Lawrence/status/387376273967685632

  48. 48
    Baud says:

    @lamh36:

    Awesome. When he loses, he can blame ACORN for good measure.

  49. 49
    NotMax says:

    @Chris

    Should you have some extra time, look up Meese Commission and also the Wedtech scandal (which was the final straw that pushed Meese to resign).

  50. 50
    sdhays says:

    @lamh36: If ever there was a state that should be unhappy about the federal government shutting down, Virginia would be that state. I hope the Democrats do some real recruiting in Cantor’s district this time; if there was ever a time Cantor should be vulnerable, 2014 should be it.

  51. 51
    russell says:

    WHY ISN’T THAT MF’ER IN JAIL?

  52. 52
    Jeff Spender says:

    This is the kind of stupid I’m up against on Facebook.

    This last week my Facebook feed delivered to me yet another round of anti-government posts. Some were anti-GOP, some were anti-Obama. All of them seemingly ignored the worldview of the other side. Some of them were from Christians, some of them were from non-believers.

    I can’t speak for the non-believers. However, Christians, I have to say that many of you just don’t seem to get it. Whose hearts do you think you are changing when you make these type of posts? All you end up doing is looking just like the non-believers who make political posts. At best you are stirring up people on the right towards indignation with the government. What about indignation with sin? Have you ever thought about backing up your views with scripture?

    You aren’t going to change someone’s heart on Obamacare or the President by citing the founders or the constitution. Do you think the other side cares what Thomas Jefferson said? Do you think the other side cares what David Barton thinks? Do you think the other side really cares about constitutional restrictions on any given issue, or do you think they just care about getting what they want at the expense of others? Covetousness and greed are nothing new.

    Do you think Hannity, for example, is on TV and the radio changing hearts and minds? I don’t think so. I think he’s ringing in the ears of people who already agree with him. He’s drumming up emotion like a pro wrestler before the pay-per-view. Bill Ayers? The left doesn’t care. Ginnifer Flowers? The left doesn’t care. Tradition? The left doesn’t care. Big, intrusive, government? The left wants it. “Let not your hearts be troubled,” says Hannity. No! “Let not your hearts be troubled,” says Jesus!

    You want to quote Jefferson? History records him as unregenerate and hell bound. Do you really think a Ronald Reagan quote is going to change anything? Maybe, maybe not. I can tell you what will…scripture.

    If you want to see real change in this country and this world, start by praying and posting a testimony about what God’s done for you. If you change someone’s heart with the gospel of Jesus Christ, you won’t have to make posts about abortion clinics and the like. You can’t convict murderers who kill legally, but the Holy Spirit can.

    We Christians need to demonstrate what kind of citizens we really are. We have a king whose government knows no end and no nation of men can vote him into the White House. How about we stop a lot of this purely political stuff and start talking about King Jesus.

    Ask yourself if you share the attitude of the Apostle Paul who wrote, “…our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.” Paul wrote that while imprisoned by an oppressive earthly government. If you really want to see a change in how our county is run with regards to marriage, infanticide, death, and theft then start trying to make disciples. Make citizens of the kingdom. Show people where you are really from.

    “Obama wasn’t born here.” That doesn’t make disciples.

    “Jesus is the way and the truth and the life.” That makes disciples.

    I challenge every Christian who reads these words to substitute one political post this week with something God has done for you. You know, I don’t think anyone has ever asked me, “Seth, why are you so conservative?” People do ask me about my hope in Jesus, however.

    Tell a story someone needs to hear this week. Tell a story about King Jesus.

    Sorry about that—-but trying to figure out how to respond rationally to that is making my brain turn to goop.

  53. 53
    lamh36 says:

    @Baud: oh. and Cruz was there Saturday, but Cucinnelli was no where to be seen and he went out of his way to NOT be photographed with Cruz

  54. 54
  55. 55
    David Koch says:

    @lamh36: And they’re attacking the GOP propaganda mill Politico – HA!

  56. 56
    lamh36 says:

    @David Koch: yep. eating their own…

  57. 57
    Baud says:

    @Jeff Spender:

    Sorry about that—-but trying to figure out how to respond rationally to that is making my brain turn to goop.

    Don’t. Them withdrawing from the world of politics into the comfort of their religion is a good thing for the country.

  58. 58
    MikeJ says:

    @Jeff Spender:

    trying to figure out how to respond rationally to that is making my brain turn to goop.

    Billy Shakes said it best in Merchant of Venice:

    “The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
    An evil soul producing holy witness
    Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
    A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
    O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!”

  59. 59
    lamh36 says:

    OK. Time for The Blacklist

  60. 60
    Mike in NC says:

    Why is this oxygen thief even still alive?

  61. 61
    LeftCoastTom says:

    @Baud: Nah, he can blame “gay math”, which the unskewed guy thought was responsible for the strange belief that Obama would win Oregon.

  62. 62
    PsiFighter37 says:

    J-E-T-S looking fine against the Falcons. Stuffed them on that last drive at the 1-yard line…gotta say, they’ve built themselves a pretty solid D-line after all.

    Sexy Rexy may not be done after this year if this keeps up. And it sure looks like Geno is playing a hell of a lot better.

  63. 63
    David Koch says:

    Meese wasn’t all bad. He produced a great porn review anthology. It was a really helpful guide for porn rentals.

  64. 64
    Betty Cracker says:

    RAYS v Red Sox getting interesting.

  65. 65
    beltane says:

    Ed Meese must be like a 1,000 years old by now. He was a disgraced old crook way back when I was in high school. Is Meese too evil to be accepted into Hell?

  66. 66
    Suffern ACE says:

    @PsiFighter37: how can you be excited by more Rex Ryan? It’s like waiting around for a Norv Turner Championship. It’s not in the cards.

  67. 67
    Jeff Spender says:

    @MikeJ: This is actually pretty brilliant.

  68. 68
    sdhays says:

    @srv: Phil Hartman was a national treasure. It was so sad when he died.

  69. 69
    NotMax says:

    @Jeff Spender

    Blow their tiny little minds:

    Jesus was really born in what is now Kenya, regardless of what the widely disseminated story repeated by his supporters claim.

    After all, where’s the birth certificate? The church has certainly never produced one.

  70. 70
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    I had assumed that Meese was dead. Now I am sad.

  71. 71
    beltane says:

    @Mike in NC: Maybe he is no longer living but is not quite dead. We may want to consider wearing bulbs of garlic around our necks to prevent this creature from biting us in our sleep.

  72. 72
    Gravenstone says:

    @Mike in NC: I would suggest an unholy alliance, a deal with the devil, if you will.

  73. 73
    Baud says:

    @NotMax:

    After all, where’s the birth certificate?

    Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I’m not a fundy and even I can give a response to that challenge.

  74. 74
    Jeff Spender says:

    @NotMax: I have to argue geodesics with him to disprove the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

    That’s not the kind of thing I would say to him.

  75. 75
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Gravenstone:

    My question, how does one seriously even begin to engage people who see themselves this way?

    You can’t. People like that are the ones who can’t be reached, so it is best to either ignore them or point and laugh.

  76. 76
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Suffern ACE: I’m not, but the Jets have been sucking less this year than I expected. Geno’s been turning the ball over a bit, but he’s got a rocket of an arm and generally seems to make less stupid decisions than Dirty Sanchez did.

    ETA: Without Tony Gonzalez, I feel like the Falcons wouldn’t have an offense / Matt Ryan would be exposed.

  77. 77
    Baud says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I see this a lot. There is an odd strain of evangelism among some liberals that makes them want to reach the most hardcore wingnut rather than the mushy middle.

  78. 78
    Chris says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Hey, my generation got Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz… Bolton. And their grinning monkey of a boss. The more things change…

    @Jeff Spender:

    “Jesus is the way and the truth and the life.” That makes disciples.

    It does indeed. The fact that I was raised on his philosophy is a huge chunk of the reason why I will never in ten lifetimes vote for you fucking Roman Empire wannabes with no gods but yourselves.

    Sorry about that—-but trying to figure out how to respond rationally to that is making my brain turn to goop.

    I ain’t gonna criticize, I’ve posted idiots’ Facebook comments here to vent about them often enough.

    Rational response… ah… Have you tried blocking them from your minifeed? Or even unfriending, if you’re not very close.

  79. 79
    NotMax says:

    @Baud

    Anecdotal.

  80. 80
    Redshirt says:

    @Betty Cracker: Almost over. Sox making a 9th inning charge…

  81. 81
    Suffern ACE says:

    @efgoldman: is one of those former Bush AGs running around the country fighting shariah law?

  82. 82
    Betty Cracker says:

    @efgoldman: Might be a sweep after all; Fernando is looking bad. As for the fan base, they don’t deserve scare quotes. The stadium is horrible and inconveniently located, but people watch on TV.

  83. 83
    tybee says:

    @Jeff Spender:

    have to argue geodesics with him to disprove the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

    all you can do is laugh at the ignorant. they refuse to learn so ridicule is the only answer.

  84. 84
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Baud: Advice for them from the bad Kevin Costner-Ashton Kutcher movie, The Guardian : Save the ones you can, Jake. The rest, you’ve got to let go.

  85. 85
  86. 86
    johnny aquitard says:

    I hate meeses to pieces.

  87. 87
    Jeff Spender says:

    @Chris: I do block some of the more…enraging things he says (once he said Wendy Davis needed to learn her place and accept Christ).

    But I won’t defriend him simply for the fact that I want to be there when he admits the philosophy and “logic” he uses as the foundation for his entire worldview have serious logical fallacies that undermine all of it. I’ve come close. So very close…he won’t answer several pointed questions that get at the heart of it, but I’m sure that eventually I’ll be able to get a concession out of him. He’s been especially defensive lately, especially in a discussion I had with a friend about morality that he saw himself into.

  88. 88
    Redshirt says:

    @efgoldman: Koji time!

    This has been a long game so far, and I’m not sure I can stay up for extra innings.

    Win it in the 10th, Sox! I need my beauty sleep!

  89. 89
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: Meese was worse than Gonzales. Meese is more more competitive with John Mitchell as a candidate for worst AG ever.

  90. 90
    tybee says:

    @johnny aquitard:

    i was wondering when that would show up. :)

  91. 91
    Redshirt says:

    I love one pitch, one out. I wonder what the MLB record is for fewest pitches in a complete game. The ultimate low would be 27.
    EDIT: 2 pitches, 2 outs.

    EDIT 2: WTF?!?!

  92. 92
    Baud says:

    @Redshirt:

    I looked it up once. It’s somewhere in the 50s. I think by a Red Sox pitcher.

  93. 93
    Another Holocene Human says:

    Ed “Snuff Porn” Meese is still alive? I thought he’d be packed in formaldehyde by now with the rest of his throbbing neck-veined paranoid enablers.

  94. 94
    Betty Cracker says:

    RAYS WIN! RAYS WIN! RAYS WIN!

  95. 95
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Holocene Human: It is actually amusing that “Holy fuck, Meese is still alive!” or the equivalent has been the most common response to this news.

  96. 96
    Redshirt says:

    @Betty Cracker: Good game, Tampa. You escaped this time, but you won’t be so lucky next time.

    Dustin Pedroia’s collision at 2nd looms large in that loss.

  97. 97
    Redshirt says:

    @Baud: That would have been a very fast game!

  98. 98
    JordanRules says:

    Just saw a commercial for H&R Blocks new healthcare advisory service helpth.com.

    The world keeps trying to turn while the idiots keep spinning their wheels trying to delay the inevitable.

  99. 99
    Narcissus says:

    Hello? Test post.

  100. 100
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @lamh36:

    Yeah, blaming the pollster worked so well for Rmoney.

  101. 101
    Baud says:

    @Redshirt:

    Charley “Red” Barrett for the Boston Braves.

    He threw not only the shortest night game in history at one hour and fifteen minutes, but also the complete game with the fewest pitches ever. Barrett needed only fifty-eight pitches to shutout the Reds 2-0 with only two hits and no walks.

  102. 102
    BBA says:

    @efgoldman: Given that Christie’s predecessor Jon Corzine actually shut down the state government, and he’s already tarring his opponent for her association with Corzine, I don’t think this angle will work too well in NJ.

  103. 103
    drkrick says:

    @Baud:

    Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I’m not a fundy and even I can give a response to that challenge.

    Matthew and Luke. Mark and John have nothing to say on the matter.

  104. 104
    Ripley says:

    @Jeff Spender: ‘Jesus was a pussy who died like a fool, or maybe the other way ’round.’

    Not what they have in mind?

  105. 105
    Belafon says:

    @Jeff Spender: My suggestion: He/She wants scripture; give them scripture. I would personally go with straight-up Jesus. It might require some research, but virtually everything they think they believe in that sounds to us like worshiping money is pretty much described by Jesus as worshiping money.

  106. 106
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @beltane:

    Is Meese too evil to be accepted into Hell?

    Hitler, Stalin, and Mao all objected to him taking up residence there.

    It was classic “there goes the neighborhood!”

  107. 107
    Baud says:

    @drkrick:

    Since when do fundies care about what the Bible actually says.

  108. 108
    Long Tooth says:

    “Meese is a pig”! (circa 1980)

    Try to imagine how native Californians feel, those that watched his career unfold from the beginning.

  109. 109
    Anoniminous says:

    They are hauling out Meese?

    First, why isn’t that bastard dead.

    Two, what possible upside is there for the GOP to wheel him out of the old folks home?

  110. 110
    nineone says:

    @srv: That were awesome. When I first saw that, back in the day, like your mom, I laughed for days. It’s just outrageous enough to be plausible.

    @Jeff Spender:

    how to respond rationally to that

    I’m thinking napalm or some other horrible practice now proscribed in decent society.

    @PsiFighter37:

    Sexy Rexy may not be done after this year if this keeps up

    On the other hand, after that end of half bungle,I’ll be surprised if Mike Smith makes it out of the locker room during halftime without being canned.

  111. 111
    Redshirt says:

    @Baud: Cool! Thanks for the knowledge. Poor Reds pitcher got a bum loss in that game – he pitched great too!

  112. 112
    Redshirt says:

    @efgoldman: I remember walking up to Fenway right before the game and getting bleacher seats for 5 bucks.

    Success ruins everything!

  113. 113
    Belafon says:

    @Chris:

    The fact that I was raised on his philosophy is a huge chunk of the reason why I will never in ten lifetimes vote for you fucking Roman Empire wannabes with no gods but yourselves.

    I would Rec this if I could.

  114. 114
    Betty Cracker says:

    @efgoldman: It’s not just an awful stadium (though it is certainly that): it’s located on the end of a peninsula so that the majority of potential attendees have to cross one of several long bridges that are prone to bottlenecks in heavy traffic. It’s an unbelievably stupid setup that can’t really be compared to situations in other MLB towns.

  115. 115
    fuckwit says:

    @Chris: Reagan was pretty much a figurehead starting with his assassination attempt, which was like a few months into his presidency! Nancy pulled him in and kept tight, close watch over him after that. She was totally freaked out, had astrologers determing the Reagan’s schedule, etc.

    I’m pretty sure that Bush was actually running the country for almost the entire Reagan era. I don’t think too many people appreciate that; it was likely well beyond the amount of power Cheney had over Bush’s son. Bush essentially had 3 terms.

    Reagan’s Alzheimer’s started to kick in very early. He was very convincing during Iran/Contra hearings saying “I don’t remember” and “I don’t recall”… because he probably really didn’t remember any of it. Old former CIA director Bush probably ran the whole Iran/Contra operation out of the VP office– something Cheney did later on with the Plame leaks, for example– and Reagan didn’t remember it, if he was even told about much of it at all.

    Reagan, by the way, during his acting years, was renowned for his photographic memory. He could read a script once and have all his lines memorized– something very useful for a man cranking out cheap pulp B-movies at a rapid pace. People found it hard to believe he really couldn’t remember things. But that memory went downhill fast, and by his second term I don’t think he was really there at all mentally.

    Writer Michael Ventura called Reagan during the era “Our Great Alcoholic Father”. He was exactly right. Reagan was not drunk, he was demented, just as out-of-it, the whole time. He did read from speeches well and smiled like an actor though, which is what gave him that Teflon.

  116. 116
    beltane says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Meese would make a very able assistant for any of those three in the netherworld.

  117. 117
    MikeJ says:

    @Redshirt:

    I remember walking up to Fenway right before the game and getting bleacher seats for 5 bucks.

    In the 80s I had a job as a delivery boy, and I’d drop off the package and head over to Fenway. Starting in the 3rd it was $3 to get in.

  118. 118
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: Hell, Meese has Mitchell crookedness and Ashcroft’s insane prudery.

  119. 119
    Jeff Spender says:

    @Belafon: I know enough about scripture and enough about his mindset to know that he’ll rationalize the shit out of anything I say to him. Have you seen the William Lane Craig video wherein he tries to rationalize the Old Testament angry vengeful god away by saying that the real victims of god’s genocide were the Israelite soldiers that had to carry it out? The children who they slaughtered were okay because they got the gift of heaven, but someone think of the soldiers!

    This guy actually said that god is not capable of murder since we are his creations, so anything that he can rationalize under that he will.

  120. 120
    beltane says:

    @efgoldman: At the end of the day, John Ashcroft showed he possessed something of a conscience, a rare trait for a Republican. He just happened to be offended by statues of nekkid ladies.

  121. 121
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: I tend to agree, but the man had dresses put on some of the Justice Department statuary to cover their naughty, naughty boobies. Dude had issues.

    @Jeff Spender:

    This guy actually said that god is not capable of murder since we are his creations, so anything that he can rationalize under that he will.

    By this reasoning, killing one’s children is cool.

  122. 122
    joel hanes says:

    @Gravenstone:

    how does one seriously even begin to engage people who see themselves this way?

    Tell them that you’ve been reading Fred Clarks’s blog “Slacktivist”, that Fred’s a Christian who witnesses his faith, and that some of the things he says have made you think.

    (Then go read Slacktivist. Fred was raised Talibangelical, but escaped from that mental prison. The Christ he champions is the Christ of Matthew 25 and the Sermon on the Mount. Fred has spent years slowly recapping the excreble Lahaye/Jenkins “Left Behind” series, ripping into shreds the theology, the eschatology, and the writing)

    I’ve been a strong atheist for forty-five years; I think Fred Clark is one of the good guys, and deserves a bigger audience.

  123. 123
    Jeff Spender says:

    @joel hanes: Have you read Matt Dillahunty’s take down of the Sermon on the Mount?

  124. 124
    Jeff Spender says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I asked him if he would murder his twin infant daughters if he got a command from god.

    Never got an answer.

    If it were me? I’d spit in god’s face and tell him to send me to hell. God’s a monster for even asking.

  125. 125
    Belafon says:

    @Jeff Spender: No, I have not seen the video. I do find that rationalization interesting, since the old Testament pretty much describes God as being willing to kill as necessary. I mean, who killed the first born in Egypt.

    I might also try to encourage you to engage him not for him, but the rest of the audience. I still do it sometimes. But, then again, there are some people you just won’t be able to do anything about.

  126. 126
    Mike in NC says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Remember “Let the eagle fly”? Good times those were.

  127. 127
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jeff Spender: My thought on that is that if, for example, my neighbor’s dog starts telling me he is god and I should kill people, I will just stop by the nearest mental health facility and check myself in.

  128. 128
    Jeff Spender says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I let him assume god for that one for the purposes of the question–as if it was a real command and god existed.

    Other than that, yeah, I’m with you.

  129. 129
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mike in NC:

    Remember “Let the eagle fly”? Good times those were.

    ::shudder::

  130. 130
    scav says:

    So, as the next concrete example of all those things government doesn’t do for us? Hundreds sickened in U.S. from salmonella outbreak linked to raw chicken

    Hundreds of people in 18 states have become sick from a salmonella outbreak linked to raw chicken products made at three California plants owned by Foster Farms, the U.S. Department of Agriculture said on Monday.
    . . .
    In a statement, Livingston, California-based Foster Farms said it was working with authorities to reduce the incidence of Salmonella Heidelberg on raw chicken products.

    No recall is in effect, the privately owned company added.

    and, for the info, Raw products from the facilities bear one of the following numbers inside a USDA mark of inspection or elsewhere on the package: P6137, P6137A or P7632.

  131. 131
    Jeff Spender says:

    @Belafon: I mean, the answer I got from him in the past was that god can’t murder because he’s god—we’re his creations and he’s the ultimate arbiter of life and death.

    Discussions with him led me from merely being an agnostic atheist with no real dog in the battle to an agnostic atheist who now sees the Christian god as a logical impossibility.

  132. 132
    scav says:

    @Jeff Spender: Wait a minute, so does indeed mean they object to abortion but would totally be ok with mothers offing the little snowflakes once they pop out? But, in that case, shouldn’t they be pushing for more Late term abortions as the soul is more baked or whatever it is? And why doesn’t god install the immortal component to the soul when the sperm touches base (Life!) but apparently waits until the birth canal?

  133. 133
    gbear says:

    @Jeff Spender: Bob Dylan would take them out on Highway 61.

  134. 134
    Belafon says:

    @Jeff Spender: I’m pretty sure if I kill my kids it’s murder. The only reason you couldn’t call God killing murder is it’s a little hard to find a jury of his peers.

    I understand his reasoning, and it’s the same reasoning that allows a couple to say “it’s God’s will” when their son kills their daughter with a gun they gave him for Christmas, that they left loaded. No, it’s not God’s will, it’s just you being an idiot and endangering other’s lives.

  135. 135
    nineone says:

    You gotta be kidding me. Julio freakin’ Jones one-hander on the bomb!

  136. 136
    Gwangung says:

    @lamh36: ok, this sounds like it might be a good show (I have a casual acquaintance who’s on the show). Is it?

  137. 137
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Belafon:

    No, it’s not God’s will, it’s just you being an idiot and endangering other’s lives.

    I am willing to cut grieving parents some slack in such circumstances. It must be almost impossible to face that reality.

  138. 138
    fka AWS says:

    @Mike in NC:

    Remember “Let the eagle fly”? Good times those were.

    Damn you to hell for even mentioning that!

  139. 139
    Jeff Spender says:

    @scav: I presented him with a logical syllogism that used his beloved scripture to argue that since only 6 in 10 adults make it to heaven, and there is biblical reason to assume 10 in 10 children will get to heaven, that it is better to kill the children instead of letting them live to adults.

    Instead of responding to that argument, he tried to pick apart the syllogism on a logical basis (and wasn’t successful, so he let it drop). It was hard to construct the argument because, well, I find it abhorrent, but I thought it pretty clearly underlined the some of the inconsistencies.

  140. 140
    trollhattan says:

    @efgoldman:

    The hilarious adventures of Gov Bush and Gonzo exectuin’ operations at the Texas death chamber are perhaps the best demonstration of the banality of evil in modern America I can cite.

    Ashcroft perhaps redeemed himself a bit with his hospital-bed refusal to capitulate, I’ll grant him that much.

  141. 141
  142. 142
    Long Tooth says:

    @Anoniminous: Scalia touched on that question in a recent interview. As I understood him to say, the devil is immortal.

  143. 143
    Hill Dweller says:

    I see the Broder-esque, pre-vacation Jon Stewart is back with a vengeance tonight.

  144. 144
    trollhattan says:

    @fka AWS:

    But that goddamn eagle sure flew, didn’t he? (Noting that one R. Cheney had a shotgun at the time.)

  145. 145
    Jeff Spender says:

    @Belafon: I think it’s along the same lines of trying to argue that logic is grounded in god. Logic exists because of god, right? TAG, basically. That essentially amounts to a ceiling supporting itself in the air–so logical laws can’t apply to god.

    I understand the reasoning of the parents, but to try to hand-wave away the genocide in the OT? Yeah, no.

  146. 146
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jeff Spender:

    there is biblical reason to assume 10 in 10 children will get to heaven

    There is? What about original sin?

  147. 147
    handy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You did a bad bad thing, Omnes Omnibus.

  148. 148
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @handy: Given the context, you had to know what it was. Blame yourself.

    ETA: I just placed the temptation before you. You fell. I had to put a lot more persuasion into getting the girl to eat the apple all those years ago.

  149. 149
    Jeff Spender says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, we’re assuming baptism at birth. He’s a Southern Baptist.

  150. 150
    handy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Hell, I admire it. I was going to post the damn thing myself but I wussed out.

  151. 151
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jeff Spender: That makes more sense then.

  152. 152
    SectarianSofa says:

    Ed Fucking Meese. Unbelievable. I was so glad to get rid of him the first (and what I thought was the only) time around….

  153. 153
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @MikeJ: Fuck all y’all, the first time I went to Fenway (and I was still a kid at the time) it was $18 in the fucking bleachers and the opposing team was the Texas Rangers, which SUCKED.

    All my best (and most affordable) Red Sox memories happened at Camden Yards. Amtrak was cheap then, too, so when you count the cost of Fenway concessions….

  154. 154
    VodkaGoGo says:

    @Dave: I didn’t either but I made the connection instantly. “Guy in DC in the early 80’s named Jeff Nelson doing an anti Meese guerrilla poster campaign? Yeah, that’s the drummer from Minor Threat and those posters came from the Dischord house.” He was damn fine drummer too.

  155. 155
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Jeff Spender:

    I asked him if he would murder his twin infant daughters if he got a command from god.

    Never got an answer.

    If it were me? I’d spit in god’s face and tell him to send me to hell. God’s a monster for even asking.

    You and Socrates have something in common, then.

    Funny how that question, Do morals come from [the] God[s]? has such amazing powers to piss off ostentatiously religious people.

  156. 156
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Holocene Human: It is easier with the Greek gods who didn’t really claim to be moral arbiters and law givers but just wanted to be bribed with booze and sex.

  157. 157
    scav says:

    “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.” Minus the trust.

  158. 158
    Another Holocene Human says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, that’s just it, that’s how we perceive them, but it’s clear in the dialogue that Plato recounts that Socrates was hitting a real sore point with his interlocutor who expresses notions that modern Christians would be awfully familiar with, eg, that morality comes from the gods, the what the gods do is good because they do it, so the legend says they did something immoral but it’s not really immoral because shut up that’s why–Zeus and Apollo go around raping females while Jehovah has this thing about trying to get his followers to kill their own children to prove how dedicated they are to the cause. I never could understand the morality in immoral obedience, I mean doesn’t that movie about the trial at Nuremberg posit the opposite thesis? But why try to understand it, it’s Sunday School. 5 impossible things before breakfast, because you can’t have breakfast until church is over.

  159. 159
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Another Holocene Human: I am just a simple man. I say pick your moral code – through religion, reason, or whatever – and do your level best to live up to it. That is all anyone can ask of a person.

    ETA: If you do that throughout your life, with the occasional stumbles and failings that come along, you are a good person.

  160. 160
    scav says:

    As this one is the religious thread, Scouts across the puddle are allowing atheists in explicitly with their own pledge. New Scouts pledge welcomes non-believers. Guides are ahead as they dropped god and country for everybody, going instead for “to serve my Queen and community”. Little Chicago thugs in training.

  161. 161
    Chris says:

    @Belafon:

    I’m pretty sure if I kill my kids it’s murder.

    I quite enjoyed it when Obama made that same point in a speech years ago in which he pointed out that if we saw Abraham about to kill Isaac, he was pretty sure most of us would tackle the lunatic to the ground. Good way to make the more basic point that no, society really can’t function based on arbitrary decisions of what people claim God did or didn’t tell them to do.

    As a great American movie would’ve put it, Smoky, this is not Canaan. There are rules. :D

  162. 162
    El Cid says:

    Remember, though, that the Reagan administration was full of really sane types and only the recent crazy Tea Party backed types are the real crazies.

    The Tea Party represents what the Reagan administration was aiming to be but couldn’t quite get that far at the time.

  163. 163
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @scav: Hopefully BSA will do the same thing.

  164. 164
    bob b says:

    Meese was insanely personally corrupt, taking huge “loans” from crooked S&L’s that he never paid a dime on. ( Read Stephen Pizzo’s book, Inside Job.) He was also a prime cheerleader for police violence against student protesters when Ronnie was Cal Gov.
    Plus the “Meese Comission” that concluded that porn causes violent crime, because several convicts told him that. Party of personal responsibility, my ass.

  165. 165
    joel hanes says:

    @Jeff Spender:

    Dillahunty’s takedown of the Sermon on the Mount

    I had not. Now I have.
    I’m not impressed.

    Like the Genesis literalists, Dillahunty takes many of the words absurdly literally, and misses both the poetry and the message.

  166. 166
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @joel hanes: Which translation was used?

  167. 167
    Jeff Spender says:

    @joel hanes: I never found it poetic, even when I did still consider myself a Christian.

    I guess what I’m saying is that I was not impressed with the sermon on the mount. The thing with Dillahunty is that he’s a former Baptist who was training to be a minister, so he does it from the point of a view of a Bible literalist. I don’t see why that’s an invalid way to do it.

  168. 168
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: I don’t fucking play golf.

    @Jeff Spender: The King James is beautifully written.

  169. 169
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @efgoldman: If I played golf, it wouldn’t be with Nino. I dispute the whole concept that Nino knows a damned thing about me.

  170. 170
    Tehanu says:

    @joel hanes:

    Fred Clark is one of the good guys, and deserves a bigger audience.

    Another vote for Fred. People like him are the only reason I have any respect for religion. And he’s a terrific writer.

  171. 171
    Bill says:

    Hey, I still have my T-shirt somewhere! I’ll have to dig it out.

    As I recall, a courier was refused entry into the Pentagon for wearing one of these shirts.

  172. 172

    @Punchy: I remember Oliver North got “community service” and one of the things he did as part of it was to narrate a children’s concert of “Peter and the Wolf.” You know, hard time.

  173. 173

    @fuckwit: I often wonder how the Cold War and the overtures from Gorbachev would have gone if Reagan hadn’t had Alzheimer’s, if he had been the strident, nasty-edged Red-baiter of his younger days. His dementia might have saved the world.

  174. 174
    Jebediah, RBG says:

    @bob b:

    Meese was insanely personally corrupt, taking huge “loans” from crooked S&L’s that he never paid a dime on. ( Read Stephen Pizzo’s book, Inside Job.)

    Outside of Job, you won’t see anybody as put upon as poor Ed Meese. Inside of Job, it’s too dark to see anybody.

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