Liz Cheney has been on the receiving end of a typical Republican push poll, which asked Wyoming residents whether they are aware that she’s pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage. Since her father has already come out in support of her openly gay sister Mary’s right to marry her partner, it put Liz in a bit of a bind. Liz, being Liz, blundered through by issuing a boilerplate statement throwing her sister under the bus and stating her firm opposition to gay marriage [warning: Politico]. Here’s Mary’s response:
“For the record, I love my sister, but she is dead wrong on the issue of marriage,” Mary Cheney wrote on Facebook, urging readers to like or share the post. Noting that “Freedom means freedom for everyone,” she added, “That means that all families — regardless of how they look or how they are made — all families are entitled to the same rights, privileges and protections as every other.”
That’s just the latest chapter of the ongoing Liz Cheney Wyoming shitshow. The previous chapter was her accusation that her opponent, Mike Enzi, sponsored the poll. Enzi might be dumb, but he’s not Liz Cheney dumb. Liz’s statement just gave Enzi an opportunity to call her a dirty campaigner, and it also gave the NRSC, which is supporting Enzi, a chance to field test their latest anti-Cheney quote:
With all due respect, it looks like Liz Cheney is fishing without a license again […]
In my part of the country, there’s a long GOP tradition of using last-minute untraceable push polls against Democrats. It’s nice to see the same dirty trick being used in a Republican primary, and whoever paid for it sure got their money’s worth.
Shakezula
Root. For. Injuries!
Liz is the perfect mascot for the modern Republican party: Hyper-privileged to the point that she is unable to imagine opposition of any sort, ever. As a result, she’s unable to cope when the smallest difficulty crops up.
I don’t know how she’ll do with The People, but I suspect she’ll be worse that Mitt Rombot at concealing her disdain for anyone who isn’t qualified for the most exotic of tax loopholes.
Comrade Jake
I really can’t stand Liz. I don’t think she has a single position I agree with. It’s like she picked out whatever was the most mean-spirited policy-wise and went with that, because that’s the way she rolls.
I hope she gets absolutely destroyed in this election, and perhaps never gets asked to appear on the Sunday shows again, but that is probably asking way too much. George Stephanopoulos always needs to troll progressives.
SiubhanDuinne
@Shakezula:
Yup. And meteors.
I’m really glad they’re not letting go of the whole fishing license thing. It seems to be turning into a meme that just might stick.
MattF
@Comrade Jake: Dream on. You should go look up how badly McCain was beaten in 2008. No one mentions it, but Obama crushed him.
c u n d gulag
Not enough bad shit can happen to “Daddies Latest Draft Exemption!”
And, sadly, not enough bad shit will…
But I’m enjoying the rat’s, trying out-ratfuck the other ratfuckers!
‘LOL!!!
MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Redshirt
Does the Dem have any chance at all for this seat?
The Thin Black Duke
I think Thanksgiving dinner at the Cheneys is going to be interesting this year.
Amir Khalid
I get the impression that Liz Cheney doesn’t quite have the skills for close political manoeuvres. It might not matter to her chances of election to the US Senate, but it could constrain her effectiveness there.
Felonius Monk
Daddy’s Little Churl!
Redshirt
@The Thin Black Duke: It’s always interesting when the main course is Unicorn Souls.
Keith P
Has her entire career been built up by her father? Seriously, she was appointed to a deputy assistant secretary of state while her dad was VP. She was part of her dad’s reelection campaign. After that, she was appointed as principal deputy assistant secretary of state (presumably by her dad). She ran some Syrian policy group. And after that, she worked on some election campaigns and joined a 501 composed of a bunch of friends of her dad. Now she’s running for election in her dad’s home state after living most of her life in the outskirts of Washington DC. It’s like she’s the Jaden Smith of politics.
shelly
What a charming family.
GregB
Liz Cheney is less likeable than Dr. Smith on Lost in Space.
Hopefully we’ll be able to see the flames from her meteoric burnout here in he North East.
J R in WV
@MattF:
True, but Senator-for-life McCain was still in the senate, while Liz will still be an unelected Cheney!
And the fishing license trope, it would be one thing if she had lived in WY for years growing up, and just forgot to mention to the licensing clerk that she had been in DC for the past couple of years. But I doubt she has qualified for a WY Resident Fishing License, Ever, in her whole life.
Maybe she’s received a resident fishing license before, without being qualified? Wonder how folks would feel about that?
I think the incumbent Senator has a great chance to put Miss Cheney right where she belongs, out of office, still.
schrodinger's cat
Test
schrodinger's cat
I could not post yesterday, WP said that my IP address was banned, has anybody else had this problem?
Botsplainer
@GregB:
Smith ultimately wanted the family to survive, and was capable of self reflection and sacrifice. Liz is more like Gaius Baltar in BSG, relentless in her self-interest.
The Dangerman
@The Thin Black Duke:
They don’t do Thanksgiving at the Cheney’s; they have a feed….
/where’s Buffy when you really need her?
Joey Maloney
@The Thin Black Duke: It’ll be the same as always. All the kids will take turns discussing their successes and failures for the year, and then Dick will eat the weakest one’s living heart. Lynne gets the liver.
Jay in Oregon
@schrodinger’s cat:
Assuming it wasn’t a WordPress glitch, that’s one of the risks of banning by IP. ISPs don’t generally give out static IP addresses, so if you’re trying to stop a particular troll you end up blocking an entire range of addresses and run the risk of catching others by accident.
I’m so old I remember being on sites—actually, I think was IRC channels—that would block entire ISPs in order to stop trolls.
Botsplainer
Speaking of BSG, am rewatching it. How many shitty decisions can one group of people make?
Anya
@Keith P: It’s like she’s the Jaden Smith of politics.
Best line ever, but I would’ve gone with Willow. I think Jaden is little bit more self aware than Ms. Cheney.
Chris
Sounds like Bush’s 2000 push polls against McCain – “Are you aware that he has an illegitimate black daughter?”
feebog
Nah, at least Jaden has some talent. Liz brings a new meaning to the title “political hack”.
Jay in Oregon
@Botsplainer:
Have you met people? Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the Cylons had won.
The rise of the Tea Party (or their ideological forebears) aptly demonstrates how capable people are willing to fuck themselves over in the name of screwing others.
Citizen_X
Couldn’t have happened to a nicer rat.
burnspbesq
@Redshirt:
Nope, and that’s why I’ve made a conscious decision to not care about this. The seat’s going to stay Republican for 100 years, and there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between Enzi and Cheney’s positions on any issue I care about.
The famous quote from Macbeth is overused, but in this case it’s spot-on.
Chris
@Botsplainer:
I got back into it again recently (halfway through Season 3). I’m still pissed at the one media episode from Season 2. (Nasty liberal reporter accurately reports that Tigh’s troops opened fire on civilians during martial law; senior staff invite reporter on Galactica hoping to influence her into more “balanced” reporting; reporter discovers to her amazement that soldiers are people too and that in fact they’re all totally heroes; reporter is shamed into behaving better. And the whole story about the shooting is just allowed to slide).
It’s an amazing show overall, but that episode really made me want to blow chunks, especially coming out as it did so soon after real life incidents involving troop misconduct like Abu Ghraib.
Roger Moore
@MattF:
OTOH, McCain still is an influential senator, so it’s not like the media lacks a plausible excuse to ask him stuff. If Cheney loses, she’ll be a conclusively rejected nothing. That’s a substantial difference.
Chris
@Jay in Oregon:
When the Star Wars prequels came out, I never understood the concept of the Separatists who start the Clone Wars. Okay, they’re pissed off at the Republic because it’s corrupt and inefficient (obviously true) and so they want to leave, I get that. But why would you then line up behind all the same megacorporations that have been at the heart of the Republic’s corruption and benefiting the most from it? Isn’t that pretty much guaranteeing that your new society will be just as bad as the old one, if not worse?
Then, in real life, the teabaggers whining about everything wrong with Washington while saying “leave the 1% alone! Leave them aloooooone!” emerged. And I was like “oh. So, they are retarded, but it’s not actually unrealistic.”
ETA: yes, I do realize that “when the Star Wars prequels came out, I never understood…” applies to many, many things.
rikyrah
this is funny
Lurking Canadian
@Botsplainer: Are you talking about the characters or the writing staff?
Davis X. Machina
@Chris: People define ‘self-interest’ in lots of ways. When we see them ‘voting against their self-interest’, we see them voting against their economic self-interest, or against their long-run self interest.
No one — not even liberals — are strict practitioners of the hedonic calculus.
Redshirt
@Chris: I know this is a minority opinion, but I think the story told in the prequels is incredible. And timely too – each movie aptly summed the times. For example, The Phantom Menace came out during the Clinton era, and it was a period of good feelings. Little did we know the Sith had already taken over… hence the irony of the movie’s ending, which ostensibly is a feel good celebration of the Good Guys beating the Bad Guys, when in fact it’s the exact opposite.
Baud
@Redshirt:
But… Jar Jar.
MattF
@Roger Moore: @J R in WV: I suppose so. But I suspect that Liz is the special moonbeam in the Cheney family’s plans for the future, and that’s not going to change.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodinger’s cat:
I have had that problem very frequently in the last few weeks. So far, each time I have simply emailed a screen shot of the notice to mistermix (in case he needs the code number or something, and also so he will know that i’m not just being annoying for the hell of it) and he’s been wonderful about quickly getting me whitelisted again. But it happens much too often. It’s always on the iPad, and I’ve found that if I do a hard reboot I can usually come back and post, but of course that takes time and is a PITA and unless I remember to save my original comment in another program before powering down, I have to type it all over again. Someone the other night suggested that I might have to change my nym (e.g. Yutsano to Yatsuno), but I’m unwilling to do that if there’s hope of another fix. Anyhow, good luck.
c u n d gulag
@Chris:
Yeah, and before last years election, I expected push poll calls telling me that Obama’s father to not one, but TWO, black children!
mr.peabody
My first reaction to hearing about the poll was that it sounded like a Karl Rove maneuver, with Cheney herself behind the push-poll. Trying to invent excuses to attack Enzi as a dirty campaigner.
But, as was stated above, I don’t really care, since it’s safely Republican anyway. Cheney is just such a mean-spirited old hag that you can’t help but hope she loses.
Redshirt
@Baud: Please note, I am totally a prequel apologist. So, that said, Jar Jar is clearly in the role of The Fool, and we as an audience (and the other characters in the story) are supposed to find him annoying. Success! But in the end he plays a big part in the story, almost despite himself.
MikeBoyScout
Is it wrong to wish for Mary Cheney to kick Liz Cheney’s teeth down her throat?
Anya
I really, really hate CNN. How does anyone watch that disaster. They’re interviewing Piers Morgan about David Frost’s legacy. What, was Rebekah Brooks busy?
geg6
Damn, talk about rooting for injuries. Truly, there is no more hateful a family than that of the
VadersCheneys.@schrodinger’s cat:
I’ve been having that problem A LOT lately, but only on my iPhone. Have no idea why that is.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@Jay in Oregon: We’ve moved up to blocking entire countries now. Check out Project Honeypot and Stop Forum Spam.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Gonna be a fun Thanksgiving at the Cheney compound this year.
Botsplainer
@Chris:
I just keep looking at the decisions they make – they have the population of a small city, their entire universe has collapsed, and they’re posturing. Roslin postures, Zarek postures. Hell, even the Cylons posture. About the only characters who reliably make decisions on a pragmatic basis are Adama, Baltar, Thrace and sometimes Tigh.
Chris
@Redshirt:
Oh, I like the macro part of “the story,” with the fall of the Republic and all, just fine. I just think the prequels would’ve benefited hugely from Lucas taking a step back and not managing everything (e.g. what he did in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi – provide the basic story, but trust other people, like script writers, actors, etc to do their jobs too). All the Anakin/Padme scenes badly reminded me of what Harrison Ford supposedly told him on the set of the original movie, “you can write this shit, George, but you sure as hell can’t say it.”
It seems like a trend in sci-fi franchises that there needs to be one person who comes up with the Big Idea, but other people to work on it and refine it. People often say that TNG and the TOS movies got better after Roddenberry was pushed to a less central role, too. And I’ll take the Stargate TV show over the original movie any day, even if I’m grateful to Emmerich for having come up with the original concept.
Tara the Antisocial Social Worker
How does she campaign when they can’t have events in daylight? And is it true the “man-sized safe” is really just the coffin that she sleeps in?
ppcli
@Redshirt: If the rapture comes in the next few months, there might be a Democratic majority left behind in the state.
Otherwise, I’m not liking the chances.
anthrosciguy
Good thing for Liz that Wyoming folk think loyalty to family is an outmoded notion… Oh wait.
Mike E
@Redshirt: Umm, what.
@mr.peabody: Cheney is just such a mean-spirited old hag that you can’t help but hope she
losesDIAF.Fix’t.
Roger Moore
@ppcli:
If the rapture comes in the next few months, the Republican majority will get bigger. The people who are so sure they’re getting raptured are wrong.
Suffern ACE
@schrodinger’s cat: yes. I was banned. It was like being on the no fly list without cause, with a few minor differences.
Redshirt
@Chris: No doubt about that. Lucas got too big to suffer any criticism/other’s input. That said, it’s still a fantastic story.
The only thing I have a hard time Forcesplaining is the racial caricatures in the Prequels. I just don’t get what the hell he was thinking.
Suffern ACE
@Chris: if you knew that Liz Cheney purpisefully swerves to run over ducklings, would that change your mind about her?
I’d honestly have to say no to that one.
Mike E
@Anya: The trick is, you don’t watch CNN. Write “CNN” on a brick and keep it nearby when you feel the urge to punch that channel into your remote; instead, smash yourself in the face. Repeat. The urge ought to subside.
MattF
@Suffern ACE: Taken lessons from her dad, ‘The Heartless One’.
Sir Laffs-a-lot
Jar Jar was C3PO however he no straight man aka R2-D2. Had there been an Abbott and Costello team like team of Jar Jar and ____ it’d worked. George kept getting things half right in the Prequels. However he still needed a director and a dialog editor.
Botsplainer
@Redshirt:
There are too many conundrums in his universe for my taste. For an ancient galaxy wide conglomeration of 10000 disparate worlds, things are low tech and there’s not a lot of intellectual sophistication.
And his robots are ridiculous.
Bugs me some about BSG, too. Billions of people spread across 12 worlds in a dry universe should have taken 400 years at least, but their social development and tech level aren’t much beyond our world.
Eric U.
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I banned Bangladesh on one forum. Nobody has complained to the admins. We could probably ban Vietnam, there are lots of Vietnamese spammers and I doubt there are any actual participants on the forum from there. We have participants from China, Russia and India, so the spammer get an even chance of getting through from there.
Anya
@Mike E: I missed my flight so I am at the mercy of CNN. I guess I can just walk around.
Chris
@Redshirt:
It’s a pretty beautiful textbook example of “you didn’t build that” in real life. Harrison Ford could tell him that stuff and rewire his own character into one of the most memorable ones in the series, because in the seventies, George Lucas wasn’t George Lucas, he was just some guy. By the nineties, he’d become one of the biggest names in Hollywood and an entire generation had grown up in awe of his success (and usually not stopping to wonder how much of it was actually “his.”)
True. I also thought it kind of took away from one of the things I liked in the original trilogy, which is that the aliens actually looked alien, not just humans with pointy ears – and part of that was that they couldn’t even speak English (with a couple exceptions – Yoda and Ackbar), which is exactly what you’d expect in a different species. I liked that better than Jamaican-aliens and Japanese-aliens.
By the way (I recall you liked the novelverse too), did you check out the Kenobi book yet? I’m only a third into it but like it so far, and I like that they’re finally starting to get back to the era between ROTS and ANH.
Mike E
@Anya: Anything would be better, but exercise is a capital idea… I’d personally drive a luggage cart into the CNN machine, and back up over it to make sure that I killed it.
Botsplainer
Rand Paul works hard for the dudebros.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/09/01/Rand-Slams-Kerry-How-Can-You-Ask-a-Man-to-Be-the-First-One-to-Die-for-a-Mistake
Baud
@Botsplainer:
Rand Paul should read his own personhood legislation…
Oh, wait, he said “man.” Never mind, then.
Botsplainer
@Baud:
Asshole thought he was being cute. What it really focuses on is that he never served and his daddy made a living off of blue suit soft duty.
Suzanne
@Botsplainer: Oh, that’s not fair. Rand is deeply concerned about us Vagina-Americans. That’s why he supports transvaginal ultrasounds. Because he’s concerned. About our twats.
Roger Moore
@Redshirt:
I think it was probably an unfortunate combination of wanting to get away from having everyone sound American or British and a lack of racial sensitivity in the choices he made. It wasn’t necessarily a bad idea, but it almost certainly would have been better to get voice actors who could use genuine accents, or at least voice coached authentic ones rather than using such obvious fake stereotype accents.
? Martin
@Mike E: Plus, you’ll learn more from the brick. Good advice.
Anoniminous
@Botsplainer:
The Return of the Jedi bored me so I haven’t seen the prequels. But …
— given the robot tech in the first movie there’s no reason for the whole ending scene. The Alliance could have programmed a bunch of intelligent bombs to hit the ventilator shaft and blow-up the Death Star.
— constructing robots to look and move like humans is stupid. Constructing robots to move on three wheels is massively stupid, it’s inherently unstable.
— the robot tech plus advanced artificial intelligence plus anti-gravity means Swarm Technology and tactics is technologically feasible. Meaning the bad guys could send thousands of “killer bees” into combat with the good guys, turning them into little glow-in-the-dark french fried crispy critters.
Roger Moore
@Suffern ACE:
More like confirm my opinion of her.
Baud
@Botsplainer:
He’s doing what Republicans do. They think it’s all about marketing, not substance, so they believe that if they just turn a memorable phrase or jab someone with a witty comeback, they’ve accomplished something. In the end, they are nothing but trolls in the blog of life, and they should be treated with the same regard as we treat any other troll.
Redshirt
@Chris: I’ve just read 5 SW novels: All three prequel novelizations (the first two are pedestrian; Revenge of the Sith is incredible, and is genuinely a great novel), the TPM prequel “Cloak of Decpetion” (which I liked), and I just finished “Labyrinth of Evil” (which I also liked). I’m going to read “Shatterpoint” next.
Do you recommend the Kenobi books? If so, where do I start?
Baud
@Anoniminous:
You expect Lucas to use drones when he couldn’t even stomach the idea that Han shot first?
Redshirt
@Botsplainer: I think it’s important to disconnect an expectation of reality from the Star Wars movies. Remember that is intentionally set up as a Fairy Tale, set in space. It’s also more “Fantasy” than “Sci-Fi”. As such, it’s intentionally formal and fantastical at the same time. I think people forget how the first movie is exactly like this – many of Luke’s lines would be groanworthy today (“I’m Luke Skywalker and I’m here to rescue you!”), but were accepted back in the day.
Not to excuse Lucas’ excesses – you can see them developing in Return of the Jedi.
gbear
Mary Cheney had no problems working for the re-election of her dad and Shrub when one of their campaign strategies was placing anti-gay constitutional amendments on state ballots in order to get their homophobic base to show up and vote.
Mary’s response to Liz is custom made to fire up the people who would vote for Liz, and Mary knows it. This is nothing but an act of sisterly love in an incredibly dishonest, conniving family
Chris
@Redshirt:
It’s not a book series (as far as I know no plan to turn it into one), it’s a book that just came out that’s basically… him settling onto Tatooine after the prequels, and getting drawn into some of the local color (the moisture farmers vs sand people) despite wanting to stay under the radar. The reviews I’d read said it was basically a Star Wars Western and from what I read last night it looks like that’s about right. Not at all the big picture, galactic level stuff that’s in any of these other books, though, so I’d recommend skipping it if that’s what you’re after.
fuckwit
@Keith P: No, based on that resume, she’s more the George W. Bush of politics. Oh, wait..
Barry
There’s the old LBJ story about him having a story accusing an opponent of bestiality. His campaign manager said ‘we can’t call him a pigf–ker!’. LBJ supposedly said ‘but we can make him deny it’.
It looks like these guys made Liz f*ck over her own sister, which doesn’t make her look good.
Johannes
@Botsplainer: In the reboot, even Baltar had redeeming qualities; not so much Ms. Cheney.
Johannes
@Botsplainer: In the reboot, even Baltar had redeeming qualities; not so much Ms. Cheney.
Redshirt
@Chris: I’ll check it out. I’m going to get “Darth Plageuis” next though, as I’m fascinated by that character. By Palpatine in general – one of the best villains ever created.
The Star Wars movies are really all about him. Everyone else is a secondary character compared to The Dark Lord (Cheney connection!). In this way, Star Wars is identical to “The Lord of the Rings” – because afterall, who was the Lord of the Rings? It was Sauron, The Dark Lord.
Anoniminous
@Baud:
Not there yet.
I’m still trying to figure out why Imperial Storm Troopers have amazing marksmanship skills in the first 15 minutes and then can’t hit the broadside of a barn in the last 106 minutes of the film.
Gordon, the Big Express Engine
@schrodinger’s cat: happened on my iphone a few days ago and then it was fixed the next day…
Villago Delenda Est
@Anoniminous:
Lucas actually had this going in the opening scenes of Ep III.
FlipYrWhig
@Redshirt: You also have to think about them in terms of _kinds of movies_. There’s WWII stuff about fighter jets, sword-and-sandal stuff, samurai warrior stuff, all spliced together. It’s not supposed to work the way reality works, it works the way movies about heroes work.
And I, too, defend the concept behind the prequels. I don’t know about how well executed the concept turns out to be, but the fall of republic, rise of empire bit was an interesting way to churn through Ancient Rome, the rise of Hitler, and the awfulness of Bush At War all at once.
Amir Khalid
@Anoniminous:
Traditional movie/TV bad-guy marksmanship.
Villago Delenda Est
@gbear:
Entire fucking family needs the Romanov or Ceausescu treatment.
gene108
@Redshirt:
Read Darth Plagueis, if you have an interest the prequels.
I would say it is not the most riveting, in terms of action, but it sure explains the hell out of the economic, political and social landscape of the pre-Phantom Menace era, which makes the TPM and AoTC make some more sense.
Also, I’d suggest the Darth Bane books, if you are interested in how the Republic became unraveled after 1,000 years.
Anoniminous
@Redshirt:
I’ll give Lucas credit for Princess Leia. She’s not the standard fall-down-and-scream helpless and inept waif of previous fantasy-SF films.
Aside from that it’s Space Opera from the 1930s, including the dialogue.
Villago Delenda Est
@FlipYrWhig:
“If you’re not with me, then you’re my enemy.”
“Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”
Frankensteinbeck
@Redshirt:
As a writer, I assure you that coming up with a good overarching story and interesting idea is the easy part. This is especially true if you don’t give a damn about continuity, which Lucas has demonstrated time and again he does not. I’m afraid the good parts of Star Wars are an example of a terrible artist getting lucky – which happens. (As you can tell, I loathe Lucas. Watching him whore his continuity and pat himself on the back for it is painful.)
? Martin
Your first clue to Star Wars was in the first 5 seconds:
You’re being told up front – don’t expect any of this shit to make any sense, just let go. It didn’t fail to deliver on that. Heroic epics are pretty much always fantasy. Nobody gave The Odyssey any more expectations of realism.
Amir Khalid
Where, oh where is Randinho? My team Liverpool FC are top of the English Premier League with three wins out of three matches, including one over Manchester United. This needs to be proclaimed from the rooftops at Balloon Juice!
Redshirt
@? Martin: Yeah, exactly. Those first words tell you everything about the story and how it’s presented: A space Fairy Tale. Thus, it plays by different rules. This point cannot be emphasized enough.
chopper
@Botsplainer:
Yeah, randy really gives a shit about the lives of people at Syrian airbases. But a zinger’s a zinger, amirite?
? Martin
@Frankensteinbeck:
That’s hardly the first step any more thanks to Lucas. The first step now is ‘what character will be coveted in Happy Meals in plastic form?’, and everything springs forth from that.
Chris
@Redshirt:
@gene108:
Like Gene said, Plagueis is worth it. I can’t think of too many other prequel books to recommend besides what’s already been listed (my favorites tend to be in the original trilogy era), but that one probably does the best job of setting up all the things you like about the prequels.
I’ve only read the first Darth Bane book, maybe I’ll give the others a shot. I do like the way they developed the Sith in the novels as something other than simply evil for evil’s sake (or followers of some devil-figure, which seemed to be the case in Lord of the Rings) – they’ve got a belief system, it’s messed up and causes a lot of pain and grief but still plausible enough to me. (Objectivists in space, basically).
Anoniminous
@Amir Khalid:
Oh, I know that. But knowing the bad guys can’t shoot straight undercuts the suspense. For me. YMMV.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Went to YouTube and looked.
Are you referring to the tracking missiles or is there something I’m not seeing?
The Other Chuck
@Anoniminous:
And it was intended to be. SW’s greatest failing was when it couldn’t decide whether to be a zap-zorch-zowie space opera, take itself seriously, or market toys to kids in a slapstick comedy adventure. Episodes IV, V, and VI did all that in that order, but the real creative crime started in RotJ where it tried to be all that at once. Still, it took the retroactive edits in the re-releases and then the prequels to perfect that sort of pastiche into an atrocity.
You could have replaced half the score of TPM with Yakkity Sax and it would have been a better fit.
gene108
@Frankensteinbeck:
It’s more painful to read.
The crazy as plot elements that keep getting hurled into every Expanded Universe adventure are ridiculous. At some point you have to define the rules of your fictitious realm and work within those boundaries.
MikeJ
@? Martin:
The most important thing to remember is that the Chinese government won’t allow your movie to be shown unless it’s 3d IMAX. Spectacle is the only thing they’re buying from the outside.
Redshirt
@Chris: Indeed. Being a huge nerd, I love the political machinations of the prequels, including trade disputes and tax policies on the outlying star systems. Especially when you consider these were all intentional moves by Plagueis/Sidious to overthrow the Republic and destroy the Jedi.
That’s another interesting twist in the prequels: You’re predisposed to root for the Jedi, but the reality is they’re in the wrong for the entire trilogy, setting up their own destruction and eventual rebirth with Luke and Leia.
Tripod
Aside from the well documented structural problems of the prequels, Hayden Christensen had that Taylor Kitsch thing going on. A charisma black hole at the center of a tent-pole movie is a terrible thing to behold.
Wait till you get a load of Abrams aggressively vacuous take on Star Wars.
Anoniminous
@The Other Chuck:
Thought the original was a hoot. Saw it seven or eight times because it was true to the Space Opera genre. Leigh Brackett wrote most of the story for ESB which is why it was not Space Opera but more 1940s/1950s SF. RotJ struck me as Lucas going, “Oh hell, let’s get this over with” only with less care and attention to story and character than that implies.
Haven’t seen the prequels, so can’t comment.
Redshirt
@FlipYrWhig: Well said. And it’s a complex story – a lot of people don’t see it, but it really is. There’s obviously many parallels to Rome, and pre-NAZI Germany, and yes indeed, W.’s America.
The shame of it all is the movies are indeed not perfect, because of Lucas. But they’re also great (story wise), because of Lucas.
I wonder how many people are now automatically dismissive of the movies because of Lucas’ reputation.
patrick II
@Anoniminous:
Without the power of the force, they would have been all blown out of the sky. It is only man’s ability, fully realized in Luke Skywalker, to feel a connection to the greater essence of the universe, that allowed Luke and the rebels to overcome the greater technology of the empire.
Churchlady
@Felonius Monk: Oh. Oh that is GOOD! Thank you!
Chris
@gene108:
The EU, despite some mediocre and/or awful novels, mostly works for me from the time it started through the New Jedi Order series. After that, it pretty much sucks.
The introduction of the Force-beings who showed up in Clone Wars and Fate of the Jedi is probably the single worst idea they’ve ever had. If it had come out in the 1990s when the books were still getting off the ground, it probably would’ve been the subject of one book or two, then been shunted aside and not brought up again, maybe even retconned eventually. But nope, they worked this into a big crossover so you can’t ignore it.
Chris
@Redshirt:
Well, it’s especially interesting when you look at it from the point of view of the original trilogy, when the good guys are fighting to restore “the Old Republic,” which from everything they’re saying you assume was pretty much a nice, good government that was sadly destroyed by an evil Empire… Turns out that it was actually a gigantic mess, which kind of makes you wonder how the Rebels planned to avoid all the old government’s mistake, or if they’d thought about it at all.
Villago Delenda Est
@Anoniminous:
Those little insect bots that pop out all over the fighters and start ripping at the wiring and R2 and everything.
ChaseBears
if you’re looking for star wars books, I would actually look by author rather than anything else.
For example, Timothy Zahn is a pretty good author. His Thrawn books pretty much changed the game on Star Wars books. Roger Macbride Allen is also a good bet.
The other thing to look at is the whole ‘New Jedi Order’ series, which was an ambitious attempt to tell a huge epic story where things would actually changed. Despite some flaws, it worked pretty well, and the wide variety of authors kept things fresh.
Splitting Image
@The Other Chuck:
I’ve come to the conclusion that everything bad in the Star Wars universe came from one line: “No, I am your father.” The series’ descent into self-parody was inevitable from that point, since the focus of the story shrunk from an entire galaxy to the vicissitudes of one family.
Flash Gordon discovering that Ming the Merciless was his father would have ruined that series too.
gene108
@Chris:
What gets me about the EU stuff, given that after the TPM came out and other pre-ANH works, is that the Old Republic was flawed from the start, with the Sith working for 1,000 years to set up the Empire.
I can sort of understand Zahn’s novels given how little pre-ANH stuff was available to him, but by the time of the New Jedi Order and the Yuzh-on-Vong (sp?) invasion, I’d really wished the focus would be more on how to build a better Galactic Government, instead of so many external threats that keep coming up that were never defined in any of the movies or earlier literature.
Luke reconstituting the Jedi to rid the galaxy of slavers, crime lords, etc. and truly bring about peace and justice would’ve been enough to satisfy me.
I mean what’s the point of Vader / Annakin dumping the Emperor down the shaft at the end of ROTJ, if every generation is just going to sprout a new Sith Lord?
I mean what’s the point about a Chosen One to bring “balance to the force”, if it has no real long term consequences?
I like the idea of Annakin’s decisions deciding the outcome of the good side versus the dark side triumphing. If he’d not interfered with the Windu-Sidious duel, despite the best efforts of the Sith, the Jedi would have won. If he hadn’t saved Luke, the Jedi would have been wiped out and if Zahn’s take on Force “battle-magic”, for lack of a better term, is canon it can explain why the death of the Emperor was key for the Rebels to win (despite not liking the idea, when I first read it).
Anyway, at some point I think people should quit while they are ahead and Lucas should’ve quit a long, long time ago.
gene108
@Splitting Image:
But you have to admit, it was a helluva a hook for getting people to want to see RoTJ. I remember debating the point of Luke’s paternity as one of the more serious topics we discussed on the play ground, in those days.
Chris
@gene108:
I agree completely, though in my case I usually transplant that complaint to the post-New Jedi Order era, since for my money that was mostly a very well done series. Mostly, I wish the writers would have let the poor Sith rest in peace instead of insisting on bringing them back; as you say, “slavers, crime lords, etc” (not to mention the megacorps that ruined the Republic and fought in the Clone Wars) would’ve been perfectly good enemies for me, and watching the Jedi/Rebels build a government would’ve been far more interesting than the rehashed galactic wars we got instead.
I think the main problem with that, though, is first the idea that that stuff is boring (plenty of people criticized the prequels precisely because they got political), and second the fact that once the story becomes about “building a government,” the authors have to get into their idea what a good government is and how it should act, which risks touching on real world politics and turning off the audience that way. I don’t think it would’ve been a loss (Star Trek and Firefly were political as hell and people love them), but I can see how the powers-that-be would’ve decided they didn’t want to risk it.
Ruckus
It has become pretty obvious that not being a starwars nerd has many, many advantages in life.
Matt McIrvin
@Redshirt:
Ever read that transcript of Lucas, Steven Spielberg, and Lawrence Kasdan spitballing ideas for Raiders of the Lost Ark? They were all positively nostalgic about the racist stereotypes in old adventure serials. Middle Easterners are all this kind of villain, Inscrutable Orientals are like that… They loved that shit.
Chris
@Splitting Image:
I’ll disagree with that one, but to each his own. For me it was “Leia’s my sister,” the shittiest resolution to a love triangle ever. God forbid the woman simply decide “yes, I love [insert character name here], not [insert character name here],” and the person who doesn’t get the girl just take it like a man.
And I actually liked Return of the Jedi. That’s the one thing that makes me roll my eyes in the movie.
Redshirt
@Ruckus: Let go of your hate! Being a Star Wars nerd is bliss. :)
Redshirt
@Chris: I liked ROTJ too, of course, but I think it’s the weakest of all 6 movies. The Endor plot line felt weak, I thought the opening of the movie was a bit scattershot, and the fact that the plot is essentially a re-working of the first movie is repetitive. That said, the space battle is incredible, as is anything to do with Vader, Luke, and the Emperor. It’s pretty funny that Ian McDarmiad played the old, decrepit Emperor as a young man, and then picked the role back up 20 years later to play a much younger Emperor.
My rankings from best to least best:
1. A New Hope
2. The Empire Strikes Back (but basically tied for first)
3. The Phantom Menace
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. Attack of the Clones
6. Return of the Jedi
Villago Delenda Est
@gene108:
Something that J.K. Rowling did with the Harry Potter universe. Sure, they can do magic, but there are limits to what they can do with it.
Villago Delenda Est
@Redshirt:
Ian McDiarmiad hiimself was surprised when Lucas approached him to reprise Palpatine/Darth Sidious/The Emperor.
Roger Moore
@Redshirt:
Except that the movies never really go into enough detail about the situation for you to develop a genuine appreciation of the political and economic situation. I’ll take your word for it that the Republic really is so bad that it needs to be overthrown, but the movies don’t do a convincing job of showing it.
Redshirt
@Roger Moore: It is shown. First, you have an organization called “The Trade Federation” represented in the Senate – that’s a clue right there that the Republic has been corrupted, when commercial interests have dedicated representation on par with planets. Two, the Senate could do nothing about an invasion of one its worlds (Naboo) without referring it to committee. The Phantom Menace clearly shows a system that no longer works. The next two movies show the Senate ceding more and more power the Supreme Chancellor, out of fear of the Seperatists. Is there any political situation that could be described as “good” when it gives up Democracy for security?
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
She also had the plot pretty well worked out before finishing the first book, in sharp contrast to Lucas’s apparent willingness to make the whole damn thing up as he went along. It’s a lot easier to write a coherent story with coherent rules if you have everything laid out at the beginning.
Villago Delenda Est
@Redshirt:
The problem is that it’s not explicit, because Lucas hates expository dialog. It detracts from all his gee-wiffy special effects stuff. Telling the story isn’t as important as distracting the audience from the story with eye candy.
Chris
@Redshirt:
It’s similar to the first movie in that it starts on Tatooine and culminates in them trying to destroy the Death Star. But assuming that it’s just going to be a repeat of the first battle is the mistake the Rebels make, which nearly finishes them off when it turns out to be a trap (the shield and the Star Destroyers almost mattered more than the Death Star). It’s different enough for me.
@Roger Moore:
The books do talk about it a lot more. But the movies establish that it’s a universe where a megacorporation can invade and occupy a planet and not only can the legitimate government not do dick about it, it can’t even find the CEO guilty even after the Naboo have squashed his army and delivered him on a silver platter, which is pretty much all you need to know.
ETA: sorry, Redshirt. Beat me to it.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
@Roger Moore:
I agree. Rowling’s verse is pretty high on my list of best fantasy fiction ever written. (Being part of the audience that grew up at the same time as the material probably helped too).
Roger Moore
@Redshirt:
Yeah, for about 5 minutes in TPM and maybe another 5 in the other two prequels. I think they spent more time on the stupid pod race than they did on all the politics in the whole series. The main way you hear about the corruption in the system is people bemoaning the corruption, a gross violation of the “show, don’t tell” rule. And there’s no solid indication that the corruption is coming from anything but the Sith trying to take control; it’s entirely plausible that the Jedi could have gotten the system working again if they had caught Sidious and his current apprentice.
Redshirt
@Roger Moore: Actually, Lucas came up with the broad outlines of the entire story way back in the early 1970’s – The Journal of the Whills.
Now, plenty of things changed from that original story inception and the movies, but overall it sticks to the broad points of the story.
gene108
@Chris:
I always thought the criticism was more along the lines, “WTF is a Trade Federation? And why should I care?”
The thing that made the original trilogy such an easy sell was the good guys and bad guys were clearly defined. In ANH, it didn’t take long realize the big guy in black was evil, because he strangled someone with one hand for not answering his questions and chucked his corpse aside like it didn’t matter.
I think Lucas kept wanting to rope in younger and younger audiences to his commercial enterprise. I think that’s one reason TPM had so much Jar Jar; he wanted to get little kids hooked. Marketing the Star Wars product has always been one of the revolutionary features of what Lucas brought to the game.
ANH came out when I was three. I saw it. Probably liked it, but was too young to remember much from actually seeing it. Thanks to Star Wars figures, I was hooked and eagerly awaiting Empire Strikes Back. The novels that came out after ANH and the comics that used to run in the Sunday comics sections, along with the comic books, helped to push the Star Wars product to older audiences like 12 year olds, who might get into girls by 1980 and blow off seeing The Empire Strikes Back.
I think with the EU literature, Lucas and Co. had to deal with both trying to rope in younger audiences and dealing with courting the sensibilities of adult readers. To me it seems they decided to push for roping in a younger audience, which is why you don’t have much character development and everything moves from one “pew-pew-pew” conflict to the next.
I find the pre-TPM stuff and some of the Clone Wars era stuff more interesting, because it fleshes out the galaxy a bit more and deals less with “pew-pew-pew” conflicts that keep coming up.
Redshirt
@Villago Delenda Est: So here’s where I reveal myself to be a full Lucas apologist: I give him lots of credit for showing, not telling. He’s used the trick of “en media res” throughout the movies, and that goes for the story as well – you’re just dropped into this Universe, and its up to you (mostly) to make sense of it.
The opening crawl of TPM says that there’s a trade dispute over taxation. And that’s about the extent of the explanation. The rest of the story just unfolds as if you, the viewer, know all about it. Thus, there’s no explanation of how/why an organization like the Trade Federation has a Senate role, and how they’re able to thwart what seems obvious – the Senate acting on their illegal invasion. Its up to you the realize that the entire scenario is messed up, and not, in fact, that its simply poor writing.
And oh, for the record, none of this is OT, since we’re talking about generic Dark Lords here.
Redshirt
@Roger Moore:
I get your point, but I disagree completely. It’s a great example of showing, not telling. In AOTC, it’s shown that the Trade Federation suffered little from a full scale invasion of a Republic planet. In TPM, the existing Chancellor is shown having a strong interest in resolving the trade dispute (the movie begins with his dispatching two Jedi to resolve the matter), but he’s stymied and then booted out of office over the issue, despite his sincere intentions.
The very use of droid armies is another “show, don’t tell” about how messed up things have become, since a droid army is the complete anti-thesis to a Democratic army, as is the Clone army. These are armies of the powerful, and they wreak havoc on all the regular people, who in turn then relinquish more and more power to a man who promises to resolve it, but of course that’s the last thing he wants – again, this is shown, not told.
Ruckus
@Redshirt:
Bliss?
I don’t think so. My time is not very valuable but it is much more valuable than this.
Other folks time, value equation may be different than mine, I will grant you that.
Redshirt
@Ruckus: Like it or not, Star Wars has become one of the prime example of modern mythology, along with the big comic book heroes. These characters are our Jason of the Argonauts and Achilles; our modern day Hercules.
Roger Moore
@Chris:
I think the idea that the work grew up with the protagonists and the audience is a huge part of its strength. I can’t think of another series that even tries it on the same level, much less one that succeeds as well. It’s really groundbreaking, which is one of the things you have to look for in a great work.
Ruckus
@Redshirt:
I reiterate, my time is not very valuable, just much more valuable than this.
Mike E
@Redshirt: I view Star Wars ’77 as a cinematic miracle, and a paradigm shift. Empire was a brief shining moment where we got a glimpse of What Might Have Been, if not for, you know, George Lucas. Sadly.
As for the rest, rank ’em any way you like; they don’t matter much to me.
gene108
@Redshirt:
I think the problem “en media res” method in the TPM is there’s too much history to sort out why things are happening.
In ANH, by contrast, the plot parameters and characters get defined pretty early on. The government has a rebellion on its hands. The government agent, Lord Vader, is evil because he strangled a prisoner to death, therefore the rebels are probably the good guys.
The plot dimensions in TPM really required some way to prepare the audience for why they should care about tax policy and trade disputes.
Also, one of the big draw backs to the prequels is the Jedi didn’t plan a damn thing out in advance. When they got to Tattoine why aren’t Republic credits legal tender? What passes for cash then? Gold or other precious metals?
From ANH, there clearly seems to be some form of legal tender accepted across the galaxy, because the 17,000 credits Obi Wan promises to pay Han seem to be good enough to satisfy Jabba, who is on Tattoine.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@The Dangerman:
,.. on the blood of virgins in the Cheny Mausoleum to the accompaniment of the best of David Brook’s on tape.
Redshirt
@gene108: This shows how the Republic is both falling apart, and is hypocritical. Slavery exists on Tatooine, but the Jedi don’t really care. But shouldn’t they? They don’t, because the Republic doesn’t, because Tatooine is outside of the Republic.
Fast forward to ANH, and the Empire – which is primarily a Corporatist, Fascist Government – has seemingly strengthened the currency of the Empire, since as you say, Jabba will accept credits in ANH, but Watto will not in TPM.
This was the basis of the Seperatist movement – the Outer Worlds (like Tatooine) felt increasingly screwed by the Republic, whether they were a member or not.
To get back to the “show, don’t tell” maxim, Star Wars as a whole is filled to the brim with “show” moments, that require the viewer to figure it out, or accept this Fantasy reality wholecloth.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Chris
My take away from that episode was when Tigh was asking the ship’s doctor how the whole messed happened and the doctor mocked him for trying to use soldiers as cops.
gene108
@Redshirt:
All valid points, but from my point of view the TPM is like going out on a blind date. Your friend, who set it up sells you on how great the date is. You know people in common maybe, so you kind of figure he/she will be like that crowd.
The TPM had more than a trailer to hook audience interest. It had Obi-Wan and Leia and everybody in the original trilogy talking about how hated the Empire is and how great the Old Republic was.
You had expectations about what the Old Republic was going to be like.
And when it was not what you expected the audience had to decide whether to look for the good points in the film or forget about it.
Having a government falling apart due to corruption and greed and being dominated by megacorporations is not inherently a bad plot device, but that wasn’t what I was led to believe the Old Republic was going to be like.
Being a Star Wars fanboy, I tend to look for the parts of the films I can like, but not everyone really decided it was worth having their childhood fantasies of the Old Republic not fulfilled.
Citizen Alan
@GregB:
That is grossly unfair to Dr. Smith who, after all, was literally the only reason to watch that show.
Redshirt
I just watched A New Hope. It’s not as good as you remember.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Redshirt:
We are talking about a setting were the government osculates between two absolute extremes and one man is behind everything bad that happens. Nice try, but Star Wars isn’t that deep fan boi. The Trade Federation started the civil war because the Sith Lord ordered them to, there is nothing more.