Private Manning Remains Controversial

From the Washington Post:

PROVIDENCE, R.I. — Army Pvt. Chelsea Manning, who was previously known as Bradley Manning, wants estrogen treatments that would promote breast development and other female characteristics, which she’d be willing to pay for, while she’s incarcerated at the all-men military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., her lawyer said.

Attorney David Coombs told The Associated Press on Monday that Manning hoped the military prison “will simply do the right thing” based on their request for hormone treatment so the soldier will not have to sue in military or civilian court. Coombs said at this point, Manning does not want sex-reassignment surgery and expects to be kept with men in prison where she’s serving time for leaking mountains of classified material to the anti-secrecy website WikiLeaks…

It wasn’t until they read a Courthouse News Service story that Manning decided to make the announcement. The story quoted prison spokeswoman Kimberly Lewis saying the prison would not provide hormone therapy. It was published Aug. 20, the day before Manning was sentenced to 35 years in prison for the leaks.

“It was Chelsea’s intent to do this all along,” Coombs said. “It was only after Fort Leavenworth had said that they would not provide any sort of medical treatment that we decided not to wait.”

Coombs said at this point, Manning does not want sex-reassignment surgery and expects to be kept with men in prison. Also, Coombs said he had seen online people objecting to taxpayer-funded hormone therapy and said if the Army wouldn’t pay for it, Manning would…

“It’s just to be comfortable in her own skin,” Coombs said…

In related news, turns out the Army really does represent all America, though not always officially, per Slate:

Brynn Tannehill is a former Navy helicopter pilot who condemns the actions of Bradley—now Chelsea—Manning. Tannehill used to fly naval attack helicopters, not entirely unlike the Apache helicopters shown in “Collateral Murder,” the video Manning sent to WikiLeaks revealing U.S. air strikes in Baghdad that left two Reuters journalists and a number of unarmed people dead. But after working as a pilot and analyst over 10 years and four deployments, Tannehill had to drop out of the military in 2010, when she began transitioning from a man to a woman.

Tannehill, who is now the director of advocacy at SPART*A, an organization that advocates for the rights of trans men and women serving in the military, worries Manning’s actions reflect badly on trans service members. “If you’re wondering if she’s being embraced as a hero in the military trans community, she is absolutely not,” Tannehill says. “People in our group can empathize with the strain that being transgender and closeted in the military causes, but we do not in any way, shape, or form think this excuses or mitigates what she did.”

The U.S. military doesn’t allow openly trans men and women to serve, even though it’s estimated that 20 percent of trans people have served, compared to 10 percent of the general U.S. population….






143 replies
  1. 1
    Botsplainer says:

    Confinee Bradley Manning is in custody, and as such, isn’t going to get to select the conditions of his long confinement by feigning femininity.

    He wants a deal, he shits on rape boy Assange, his fluffer Poitras and that Neo-Nazi incompetent “lawyer” Griftwald.

    Those are the terms.

  2. 2
    chopper says:

    @Botsplainer:

    now that’s some trollin’.

  3. 3
  4. 4
    Botsplainer says:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....t-for-Whom

    During a recent online Q&A session with Campus Reform, Julian Assange, founder of the government secret-leaking group WikiLeaks, admitted he’s a “big admirer” of former Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) and his son, Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY), for what he called “their very principled positions.” Specifically, he praised them and their libertarian Republican brethren for, among other things, their fervent opposition to abortion rights, characterizing their position on abortion as a reflection of their commitment to non-violence.

    *guffaw*

    C’mon AL, tell us how noble Assange is and how “information must be free” is the cornerstone, the bulwark, if you will, of all progressive thought.

  5. 5
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Botsplainer: What have Poitras and Greenwald to do with Manning?

  6. 6
    Botsplainer says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    The board of the Press Freedom Foundation, honey.

    Or have you been missing the connection between Greenwald and Wikileaks in your fever to hunt the great white unicorn of progressive privacy?

  7. 7
    Liquid says:

    When do we invade Austria?

  8. 8
    fka AWS says:

    This is relevant:

    AP Style: Use Pvt. Chelsea E. Manning and female pronouns for soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning, per her wishes to live as a woman.

    Depending on their own in-house style, you should see most U.S. newspapers using this form when referring to Pvt. Manning in the near future. There’s pushback in the comments.

  9. 9
    mai naem says:

    Assange always came across as a creep to me. Maybe I’ve watched too many European based suspense movies, but Assange just comes across as the psycho sadistic sociopath who first tortures people and then beats them to death with a cricket bat.

  10. 10
    Ash Can says:

    Manning will pay for the treatments if the Army won’t. Fine.

    Tannehill empathizes with the pressure inherent in being transgendered, but observes that Manning still fucked up. That’s fine too.

    Where’s the controversy?

  11. 11
    Botsplainer says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    On second thought, darling, let me help you.

    https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/about/staff

    If you want to know how you’ve been used, my love, check it. The PFF bundles for Wikileaks.

    https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/organization/wikileaks

  12. 12
    amk says:

    @Ash Can: Anything and everything can be trolled into a controversy if you apply your mind to it.

  13. 13
    ChrisNYC says:

    One of the Seal Team Six guys is TG. Admittedly he did not download a bunch of info and become a hero on that account and then make his switch into a putative civil rights claim. Instead — hold on to your hats — he did his turn in the mil and left and got the fix. BORing.

  14. 14
    The Sheriff's A Ni- says:

    @Botsplainer: @AxelFoley: As an Obot of good standing, let me put it kindly:

    Fuck you.

    Chelsea Manning fucked up, Chelsea Manning will spend 12 to 35 in Leavenworth, but shitting all over her gender dysphoria? Fuck no. Take that act over to Erick Erickson. Not here.

  15. 15
    Belafon says:

    @Botsplainer: You know, Bot, you could do this without the “honey” and “darling”. There’s no point in it and it just makes people ignore you.

  16. 16
    Ash Can says:

    @amk: Sheesh. Watching the Cubs fall on their faces yet again is more interesting than this. I’m outa here.

  17. 17
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Botsplainer:
    There’s nothing frivolous or unreasonable about Chelsea Manning’s request for hormone treatment, since her gender dysmorphia is not in dispute. The US Army shouldn’t demand that she inform on Assange or anyone else as a precondition for getting the treatment. It owes her proper treatment, just as it does any other prisoner in custody. We all know it’s fallen down on that obligation before this.

  18. 18
    Soonergrunt says:

    I don’t care what the Army does to PFC Manning, as long as it comports with the law and military regulations. And I don’t care about Manning any more than any other prisoners at USDB, excepting so much as they be treated in accordance with the law and military regulations.

    @Botsplainer: The Gender Identity Disorder is real. It was diagnosed by a military psychologist in Iraq prior to PFC Manning engaging in the misconduct that resulted in the court-martial. Also, PFC Manning was diagnosed with GID by a Navy psychologist secondary to the RCM 706 sanity board that determined the PFC Manning was legally sane at the time of the charged misconduct.

  19. 19
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Botsplainer: So… Manning has no actual dealings with Unpersons LP and GG, but he must denounce and repudiate their Wrongthink if he hopes for decent treatment?

    Joe from (the not-American) Georgia called — you owe him a royalty payment.

  20. 20
    Amir Khalid says:

    @ChrisNYC:
    Alas, that option is not available to Chelsea Manning now, so she must look to her jailors, who are now responsible for her medical care. Her crimes and her gender dysmorphia should be handled as the entirely separate issues that they are.

  21. 21
    ChrisNYC says:

    @Amir Khalid: Wait a minute — what? The Army says it doesn’t do hormone replacement for anyone. Is that false? Where are you getting this “obligation” from?

  22. 22
    jon says:

    Having a little experience from working at a (state) prison and from some knowledge “on the streets” of some transitioning individuals gives me enough knowledge only to say “Holy Fuck, Manning! You’re in for a rough time!”

    First of all, the logistics of this treatment in prison is quite extensive and expensive. It’s not just mailing in some pills and making sure she is the one who swallows them. There’s also testosterone blockers. And then there is the blood work to determine if the levels of various hormones are at safe levels. Imagine going through puberty, aging, weight gain, muscle loss, and mood swings all at once. Even if the medical needs are taken care of (difficult in prison,) the specialized counseling is not going to be easy (and anyone with any sense would demand that it be available.) I can’t speak for the federal system, but the state prison I experienced has a medical system designed to cut costs first and provide care eventually.

    As for the prison environment itself, it’s not like the movies. It’s not predatory rapists and shivs everywhere. It’s mostly boring. Manning will stand out. I can imagine a few bullies and a lot of live-and-let-live. But those few bullies? They’ve got the potential to be brutal in their talk. They’ll be giving gut-checks a lot more than usual to someone who is small and weak and also going to be seen as a wanna-be woman. And there will be offers for sex. Expectations, even. But outright forcing? Not too likely.

    Since the Prison Rape Elimination Act (2003), prisons have had to take steps against sexual activity. The law says no inmate can consent to sex. It also says if no one says anything, both can be charged with raping each other. It’s easy to see how a good-intentioned law can be misapplied, even as the logic of an inability to consent to sex is solid. In prison, there are few commodities. If Manning wants things, she’ll have to go through the heads. If she gets into debt and can’t pay, other arrangements can be made. If she doesn’t pay protection money because she doesn’t get help, she’ll get squeezed. If she doesn’t do as she’s asked, she’ll get targeted. And paying off debts is possible in many ways. Beatings, being a torpedo (delivering beatings), smuggling contraband, and sex.

    She won’t be outright raped. Not outright. She’ll be targeted, harassed, ridiculed, threatened, and so forth. She might get money sent in and use it to buy protection. And who knows what other arrangements will come with that?

    She’ll want to go into protective segregation as soon as she can. Of course, that means she’ll be isolated from everyone. Probably a solo cell. Fewer rec privileges. No work possibilities. And that’s a long sentence.

    I fear for her. I wish her well. But I fear for her. There’s just no way she’ll be able to make the best of it where she is. And that place is no environment to be what she wants to be. She can’t be in a women’s prison. She can’t be in a men’s prison. I’d love to think her being open about her plight can lead to changes for the better, not just in her place but for all the prisons and jails across the country. But so far, all there is is stubbornness and No. That’s the easy answer in the prison. And all the employees are told it’s the right one.

    Sorry for the rambling. I’ve been trying to figure out how to say both what I know and what I think ever since I heard about this. But my biggest, most solid thought, is “Oh shit.” Not the most helpful, I know.

  23. 23
    PopeRatzo says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    What have Poitras and Greenwald to do with Manning?

    They all three disturbed a certain Very Important Person’s beautiful mind.

    Can you imagine what it would Botsplainer and Axel Foley would sound like if Manning was black? You’d be fighting off a friggin’ Klan meeting, Ms Laurie.

  24. 24
    eemom says:

    The blog seems to have diarrhea this evening.

  25. 25
    eemom says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    you owe him a royalty payment.

    RIP, Irony.

  26. 26
    Botsplainer says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    So… Manning has no actual dealings with Unpersons LP and GG, but he must denounce and repudiate their Wrongthink if he hopes for decent treatment?

    Dunno. She has refused to dump on the handlers who profited by her adolescent confusion to date.

    Who knows what kind of fascinating statements she might have about the brilliant persuasive power and sage legal advice regarding the disposition of classified data expounded by the fine legal minds of Poitras and Griftwald. Could be something, could be nothing.

    At some point, one must pose he question.

    Somebody has to ask, though.

  27. 27
    Amir Khalid says:

    @ChrisNYC:
    I’m referring to the US Army’s obligation to treat any prisoner properly. Its failure to do so with Manning led to the trial judge granting her, I think it was, some 1,300 days credit against her sentence. From what I gather, the issue of her request for hormone treatment for GD is a novel situation for the US Army, one her lawyers hope to resolve without resorting to litigation.

  28. 28
    ChrisNYC says:

    @Amir Khalid: Well yeah that option’s not available. But the only person who made that so is Manning. Because certain incarceration. I mean really. Let me leak a whole shitload and go to prison and then announce that I’m in the wrong body. And well warden you figure it out. Some forethought is not too much to ask.

  29. 29
    Ted & Hellen says:

    Anyone else think Botsplainer is drunk this evening?

  30. 30
    Botsplainer says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    led to the trial judge granting her, I think it was, some 1,300 days credit against her sentence.

    Bzzzzt- wrong.

  31. 31
    ChrisNYC says:

    @Amir Khalid: Why Manning? Why the special treatment? The conditions pretrial are a completely separate issue. Why does Manning get what other prisoners don’t? Celebrity.

  32. 32
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Amir Khalid: The Army does not have, and never has had an obligation, legal or otherwise, to pay for or support PFC Manning’s desire to transition. What should have happened, what would have happened, had Manning not engaged in the misconduct that led to this situation, is that, having been diagnosed with GID by an army psychologist, she would have been medically discharged from the Army, with an honorable service characterization, which would have allowed her to keep her college benefits under the GI Bill. She could then have pursued gender transition on her own. Had Manning not skipped several of her appointments with the psychologist (this was covered extensively in the trial) then who knows what would have happened?
    What the Army owes PFC Manning is a confinement facility that is safe and humane in every respect, run by trained professional staff who will respect her dignity as a human being, and not mistreat her or allow her to be mistreated. In other words, the Army owes Manning the same thing it owes every military prisoner entrusted to their care at USDB. Nothing more or less than that.
    The Bradley PVT Manning Support Network (they renamed themselves in light of the recent revelations) has raised over a million dollars for her defense. After Mr. Coombs is paid for the trial and the appeals process, I assume that some will be left over. If there is a legal mechanism by which that money may be used to finance her transition, I wouldn’t personally be against that. But I suspect that prisons, being rather unpleasant places no matter how nice and modern, will probably not be either able or willing to support that.
    Some state prison systems in the US will pay for hormone therapy, but I know that the military corrections system does not, and I believe that the federal bureau of prisons does not either.

  33. 33
    Botsplainer says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Anyone else think Botsplainer is drunk this evening?

    Anyone else think Teddy is an asshole with a social adjustment disorder?

  34. 34
    Belafon says:

    OT: So did anyone else see that it was the Syrians that cause the NYT outage.

  35. 35

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:

    Chelsea Manning fucked up, Chelsea Manning will spend 12 to 35 in Leavenworth, but shitting all over her gender dysphoria? Fuck no. Take that act over to Erick Erickson. Not here.

    +eleventy

  36. 36
    kc says:

    @Botsplainer:

    Dude, get a grip.

  37. 37
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Amir Khalid: The 1291 days or whatever it was of pre-trial confinement credit was day for day credit for PFC Manning’s pre-trial confinement. In that total, there are 110 days that the Judge awarded PFC Manning as extra credit for the unnescessarily harsh conditions under which he experienced part of his PTC at the Quantico Marine Base Brig. Judge Lind awarded 1 extra day of credit for every day she found that the defense had shown (by a preponderance of evidence) that PFC Manning’s treatment violated either federal law, DoD, or US Navy regulations in the 10 months he was there. She could have awarded him up to 10 days for every day that departed from standard, but she did not.

  38. 38
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Botsplainer: “Anyone else think Teddy is an asshole with a social adjustment disorder?”
    That’s undoubtedly true. It’s also irrelevant to the fact that you are being something of a jerk and advocating harsh treatment for a prisoner that no just society should entertain.

  39. 39
    hamletta says:

    @jon: I was reading a few days ago, and someone was talking about how military prisons are stricter and more regimented than state prisons, and she’ll probably be safer there.

    I sure hope that’s true. She went through so much at Quantico.

  40. 40

    @Belafon: There’s quite a bit of uncertainty whether the Syrian Electronic Army is in any way affiliated with Syria.

    It’s got a certain Unitarian Jihad whiff to it.

  41. 41
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Soonergrunt:
    I stand corrected. Thank you.

  42. 42
    Liquid says:

    @Martin —

    The Marker is glorious and divine, you know that.

  43. 43
    kc says:

    @👾 Martin:

    “Unitarian Jihad”

    Ha!

  44. 44

    @kc: Don’t laugh at the Unitarian Jihad. They can strike without warning!

  45. 45
    Botsplainer says:

    Today in conservative judging (as we worry about Sts Bradley and Special Ed):

    http://billingsgazette.com/new.....21dc1.html

    A Yellowstone County district judge Monday ordered a former Senior High teacher convicted of raping a 14-year-old female student who later committed suicide to spend 30 days in jail.

    Judge G. Todd Baugh sentenced Stacey Dean Rambold to 15 years in prison, with all but 31 days suspended, for sexual intercourse without consent.

    The judge’s sentence was not received well by the girl’s mother, who repeatedly screamed “You people suck!” and stormed out of the courtroom.

    Auliea Hanlon testified earlier at the hearing that her daughter’s relationship with Rambold was a “major factor” in her suicide, and she begged the judge to order Rambold to prison.

    The girl’s death caused problems for the prosecution, and in July 2010 Rambold entered into a deferred prosecution agreement with the Yellowstone County Attorney’s Office.

    The agreement called for prosecutors to put the case on hold for three years. The charges would be dismissed, the agreement stated, if Rambold completed a sex offender treatment program and complied with other conditions.

    Rambold also admitted to one of the rape charges, and he agreed that his admission could be used against him.

    The case was revived last December, when prosecutors learned that Rambold had been terminated from the sex offender treatment program.

    But he was terminated from the program in November, when it was learned that he had been having unsupervised visits with minors and had not informed his counselors that he had been having sexual relations with a woman.

    Baugh said he listened to recorded statements given by Morales before her death and believes that while she was a troubled youth, she was “as much in control of the situation” as Rambold.

    The judge also said Morales was “older than her chronological age.”

  46. 46
    Mnemosyne says:

    @ChrisNYC:

    Why Manning? Why the special treatment?

    I would argue that, because she is now famous (or infamous), Manning is in a position to open the door for treatment options not only for herself, but for other military prisoners who might find themselves in the same boat. If some kind of compromise can be worked out (such as privately financed treatment permitted by the prison), then it will make it easier for the next transgender prisoner to get the treatment they need.

    In one of the earlier threads about this, a transgender commenter who has herself undergone hormone treatments pointed out that the treatment is generally considered to be psychiatric rather than strictly medical, though of course it has medical side effects. Assuming that Pvt. Manning gets through the screening process to begin hormone treatments, I don’t see any reason why those treatments should be denied to her any more than the prison system would deny treatment to a schizophrenic or bipolar prisoner.

  47. 47
    Belafon says:

    @👾 Martin: I’m sure your right about this not coming right out of Syria. But it is pretty wild to think that, in 2013, someone could do this DNS attack.

  48. 48
    eemom says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    What’s a guy like you who (1) puts actual time and thought into (2) posts you write yourself, doing on a blog like this?

    At least, amongst the standard late night crowd.

  49. 49
    Mnemosyne says:

    @👾 Martin:

    I had forgotten about the Unitarian Jihad Name Generator. I think I like mine: Matron Dominatrix of Understanding.

  50. 50
    ruemara says:

    Botsplainer, I may agree with you on the substance, but there’s no need for condescension and mocking of Mannings gender identity. That’s just plain wrong. Like no one chooses to be gay, black or blond, no one chooses to struggle with their gender. Her mental problems and the ways she messed up are not the same issues, but they helped create her problems.

  51. 51
    Pamoya says:

    I would just like to point out that not providing prisoners medically necessary care is cruel and unusual punishment. Just because the military has a policy not to pay for hormone therapy for prisoners with gender dysphoria doesn’t make it right, or legal.

    Also, in a just world transgender people would be able to serve openly in the military.

  52. 52
    Mike in NC says:

    @👾 Martin: Related to the People’s Judean Front?

  53. 53

    @Belafon: Nah:

    The credentials of a Melbourne IT reseller (username and password) were used to access a reseller account on Melbourne IT’s systems.

    The DNS records of several domain names on that reseller account were changed – including nytimes.com<http://nytimes.com&gt;.

    And Twitter.

    Melbourne IT was stupid. And I bet they got to that user/pass through a phishing or social engineering effort. I know people that do this for a living. They say it’s much easier than you can imagine. The Onion was kind enough to document how they got hacked by SEA.

  54. 54
    kc says:

    @👾 Martin:

    How could I have forgotten about that group? And the existential threat it poses to the American way of life?

    Thanks for refreshing my memory. And now I know where Sister Rail Gun got her name.

  55. 55
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @eemom:

    So eemom, if you would, in a nutshell, please to catch me up on your ongoing feud with AL. Why is it you loathe her and what’s with the not so subtle innuendos about plagiarism?

  56. 56
    kc says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I am Abbess Gas Chamber of Compassion.

  57. 57

    @Mike in NC: Fuck no! Splitters! They’re an offshoot of the Popular Front of Judea.

  58. 58
    Jane2 says:

    @eemom: And this means what, exactly? Everyone has their own style, and some I like more than others, but I haven’t seen a demarcation between a.m. and p.m front pagers in terms of quality and analysis.

  59. 59
    Jane2 says:

    @Botsplainer: Talk about the dog’s breakfast of people you wouldn’t invite to the prom, as Charlie Pierce would say. And what do they have in common besides some nebulous connections in your mind?

    @Botsplainer: Ah ok you’re just an asshole. I read better flaming in Yahoo chatrooms. Honey.

  60. 60
    Liquid says:

    @Jane2: The cynics usually stay up later.

  61. 61
    TriassicSands says:

    @Botsplainer:

    Wow, so much hate. I try to save my vitriol for people who can actually wreck my life — you know, like the Republican Party.

    @mai naem:
    .

    ..the psycho sadistic sociopath who first tortures people and then beats them to death with a cricket bat.

    I don’t know if it’s “too many European based suspense movies,” but it definitely seems like too much something.

    @Belafon:

    You know, Bot, you could do this without the “honey” and “darling”. There’s no point in it and it just makes people ignore you.

    I was thinking how creepy Botsplainer sounds.

    …the military trans community,

    Now, those are some words I’m not sure I ever expected to see strung together in print. Times have definitely changed.

    I’m also not sure that undergoing hormone treatments that will cause breast enlargement sounds like a great idea in a male prison.

  62. 62

    @Mnemosyne: That’s excellent! Ms Martin is Mother Superior Lethal Injection of Bright Blessings. I’m Brother Crimson Fire of Compassion. Ms Martin is indeed a UUer and serves on several committees.

    Go forth and tolerate.

  63. 63
    mdblanche says:

    Army Pvt. Chelsea Manning, who was previously known as Bradley Manning, wants estrogen treatments that would promote breast development and other female characteristics, which she’d be willing to pay for, while she’s incarcerated at the all-men military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., her lawyer said.

    I don’t know. I don’t see this ending well.

  64. 64
    jon says:

    @hamletta: I’d like to think so. I heard from state inmates that the federal prisons were better places, but for reasons that are both better and worse for people such as Manning. If prison taught me anything, it’s that there’s always a way for those with a will, again for better and worse.

    I would imagine that a military prison would be more disciplined than even a better federal prison, but I also see that as a place where someone like Manning would be even more likely to be both isolated and picked apart.

    As you might guess, I didn’t leave my employment with a lot of optimism about prisons.

  65. 65
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    I am Brother Bowie Knife of Appreciative Joy
    You know, that actually works for me.

  66. 66
    Amir Khalid says:

    @jon:
    As I recall, it was David Coombs, Manning’s lawyer, who made the hopeful remarks about conditions at Leavenworth. If he’s right, that’s good news.

  67. 67
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Soonergrunt:” Matron Mutual Assured Destruction of Appreciative Joy”… I think the name-generator may have been lurking on this blog…

  68. 68
    Jane2 says:

    @Botsplainer: Not I, but you seem rather angry.

  69. 69
    MomSense says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Ha! I’m Mother Superior of Mutually Assured Compassion!

  70. 70
    Soonergrunt says:

    @eemom: Thanks, but I think that with a few notable exceptions, most of the people on here seem like they generally try to honestly take part in real discussion. I probably agree with most juicers far more often than I disagree.

  71. 71
    eemom says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Get back to me when you know the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement.

  72. 72

    @Mnemosyne:

    I had forgotten about the Unitarian Jihad Name Generator.

    I think I prefer the human generated ones. For example, I miss Sister Rusty Pitchfork of Decency and wish she’d drop by the blog for more than kitty porn.

  73. 73
    Liquid says:

    @MomSense: If anyone present on these boards should be named Mother Superior it’s eemom.

  74. 74
  75. 75
    Yatsuno says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Brother Iron Maiden of Mercy

    I approve of this message.

  76. 76
    eemom says:

    @Jane2:

    And this means what, exactly? Everyone has their own style, and some I like more than others, but I haven’t seen a demarcation between a.m. and p.m front pagers in terms of quality and analysis.

    Late night posters are most often just Cole and AL. Cole’s posts, imo based on observation, are generally pulled out of his ass with very little time or thought. AL’s posts — and it’s not just my opinion, but a statement of objective fact — are generally 98% (or more) copied from someone else’s work.

  77. 77
    Liquid says:

    I am Brother Smith & Wesson of Understanding.

  78. 78
    Suzanne says:

    Me: Mother Superior Mutual Assured Destruction of Reverence.

    Laughing my mass off at this prank.

  79. 79
    Suzanne says:

    @eemom: And approximately 98% of your comments are complaining about the front pagers.

    It’s almost like you could just stop reading. In fact, it’s JUST like that.

  80. 80
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    In one of the earlier threads about this, a transgender commenter who has herself undergone hormone treatments pointed out that the treatment is generally considered to be psychiatric rather than strictly medical, though of course it has medical side effects.

    How is a psychiatric condition not a medical condiction?

  81. 81
    Jane2 says:

    @eemom: I value ALs posts because she obviously puts time into finding sources on topics that prompt discussion. And as a kitty lover, don’t be dissing the Steve posts!

  82. 82
    scav says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well, some might draw a line because they can’t take a vote and decide appendicitis isn’t a problem anymore and remove it from the manual. (some examples are more brightline but many aren’t.)

  83. 83
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Psychiatric conditions are medical conditions, but not every medical condition is a psychiatric condition. Clear as mud yet?

    Basically, the point I was trying to make is that some people might try to claim that it’s “just” a psychiatric condition that can wait until after her release to be treated, not a “real” medical condition that needs to be treated promptly to avoid possible complications later. My point is that people who are incarcerated need to have their psychiatric conditions promptly treated, for their own safety and for the safety of everyone around them.

  84. 84
    Mary G says:

    @Mnemosyne: I am Matron Enola Gay of Lovingkindness!

    I did not like to hear Anne Laurie called “honey,” “darling” and “my love” by you, Botsplainer. Were you asleep during the 70s?

    I am a big fan of Anne Laurie. She is a gift to an insomniac on the West Coast.

  85. 85
    Mike with a Mic says:

    @jon:

    Having been in the military I didn’t find all that much LGBT hostility. Sure there was some among the evangelical brass, but for the most part people didn’t give a shit. Everyone knew people were different, and nobody really gave two fucks.

    What people did hate was shitbags. For a perfect example of a shitbag think Gomer Pyle, and shitbags come in all shapes and forms. From what we know about Manning, the whining, scene causing, emotional fits, not being fit for duty, the leaking, Manning was one hell of a shitbag.

    If you’ve got your shit together nobody will really harass you for stupid reasons or try to make your life hell. On the other hand if you’re a shitbag people will come after you with whatever they can, everything and anything is fair game. If you’re a shitbag your gender identity “issues” are completely fair game, being a shitbag makes everything fair game.

    A good portion of how people treat her is going to be based on how she acts and carries herself.

  86. 86
    Mnemosyne says:

    @eemom:

    I just walked 1.35 miles to try and get my 10,000 steps in today but, alas, I’m 1,617 short of my goal but too lazy to go outside for another walk. (Besides, there were big honkin’ raccoons out there this time of night.)

    I have to say, I’m really liking my Fitbit. Having a daily goal is working for me, though my meeting was canceled today so I couldn’t weigh in.

  87. 87
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @eemom:

    Cranky much?

    Whatevs.

  88. 88
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @scav: Well, I would say that if Manning has a medical condition, it should be treated. A psychiatric condition is medical. Therefore it should be treated. OTOH, my memory of the healthcare deal the military gives its members says that it is not obligated to give the ne plus ultra of treatments.

  89. 89
    Liquid says:

    @Mary G: I prefer — “Ya dumb broad!” To which I respond — “All right, Anne, gently extend your arm. Extend your middle finger. Very good. Well done.”

  90. 90
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: I am not an MD. I am not psychologist. If those treating Manning make a determination that he has a medical condition, it should be treated.

  91. 91
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Unfortunately, in this world, a fair number of people still think that a person with gender dysmorphia doesn’t have a “real” psychiatric or medical problem, so it will probably be an uphill battle to get the military to treat it as an actual medical problem and not malingering of some kind.

  92. 92
    scav says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Whereas I’d say there are both important and put-offable medical and psychiatric conditions, and important ones of either sort should be treated. (put-offable isn’t necessarily equivalent to elective either). It’s a vocab thing, principles seem to be similar.

  93. 93
    Mike with a Mic says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You get free treatment at the military facilities, however this is rarely the “top of the line” item and you usually have zero choice in how they go about it. You have the option of using Tricare for treatment out of the military centers if you are willing to pay extra, getting your own insurance, or paying out of pocket as well. Many people often go this route because you actually have some input and control over your treatment.

  94. 94
    eemom says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    So…..Mr. “I Demand You Provide Evidence of Every Adjective You Directed At My Comment, Thanks I’ll Wait”……is calling me cranky, because I pointed out one irrefutable inaccuracy in his snide-ass question?

    Whatevs.

  95. 95
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Also, too, I think that someone who would pretend to have a gender dysmorphia disorder probably has bigger psychological problems that someone who actually has the disorder, if you know what I mean.

  96. 96
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @MomSense: Abbess Mutual Assured Destruction of Tolerance, I am.

  97. 97
    eemom says:

    Just FTR, y’all’s hero AL deleted my response to Suzanne.

    Ask Mnem.

  98. 98
    Suzanne says:

    @Mnemosyne: I thought the same thing. Being willing to fake that disorder (especially before committing the crime or even joining the Army) in order to use it as a mitigating factor in one’s trial/sentencing is SERIOUSLY bent. That’s psychopathic levels of nutty.

  99. 99
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mike with a Mic: Dude, I have received the “okay” treatment that the military gives. My right elbow still doesn’t work quite right; it gives out once in a while and I can’t extend it 100%. There went my fencing career. Manning should get the same “okay” treatment that any soldier receives.

  100. 100
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Mnemosyne: @Omnes Omnibus:

    A psychiatric condition is most assuredly a medical condition. To suggest that psychiatric conditions are not medical conditions serves to perpetuate the stigma about the brain disorders we call mental illness. It’s an ongoing battle, and one I fight weekly if not daily.

    PS – Help fight the stigma by joining Team Bella Q here

  101. 101
    Suzanne says:

    @eemom: Oh, that’s too bad. Because I wasn’t aware of exactly how much you hated this blog’s posters and commenters until I read your 637th post on the subject. That one really had that je ne said quoi.

    Alas.

  102. 102
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): That was what I was trying to say. Thank you.

  103. 103
    Yatsuno says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):

    Abbess Mutual Assured Destruction of Tolerance, I am

    Nym change. I demand this in the name of our dearly departed feline overlord Tunch (pbuh).

  104. 104
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Yatsuno: Donate to Team Bella Q and it’s done, mister. I drive a hard bargain, but it’s a worthy cause (admittedly not as cuddly as rescuing puppehs and kittehs) and fundraising in the next 12 months will make or break this NAMI chapter. (Of which I’m the current Abbess)

  105. 105
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Yatsuno: I am The Broadsword of Toleration and don’t you fucking forget it.

  106. 106
    Cacti says:

    As no Court of Law has recognized any name change, I will refer to inmate Manning as Bradley.

    However, I can’t say I blame him for his ruse to get out of the men’s correctional facility, as a twerpy little fella like him will get passed around like a bong at a college party.

  107. 107
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Cacti:

    As no Court of Law has recognized any name change, I will refer to inmate Manning as Bradley.

    You realize how ironic it is for someone who goes by a pseudonym to make this declaration, right?

  108. 108
    Cacti says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    You realize how ironic it is for someone who goes by a pseudonym to make this declaration, right?

    Other than my not expecting anyone to call me Cacti in real life, yep, practically the same.

  109. 109
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cacti: Christ, don’t be an asshole. There has been no legal name change, sure. Could you just use Manning as a name? That one isn’t changing no matter what else happens.

  110. 110
    Uriel says:

    @Mnemosyne: I got The Very Reverend Thompson Submachine of Compassion. Not bad- not bad at all.

  111. 111
    Suzanne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Perhaps I am being childish and puerile (eemom, there is your straight line!), but might I just note that “Manning” is an exceptionally ironic surname for a transwoman?

  112. 112
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Cacti: Really? You must refer to Pvt. Manning on your terms and your terms only? That’s a dick move.

    Likewise, who died and transmitted omniscience to you to declare Manning’s gender identity disorder a ruse? Professionals have determined it’s genuine. Again, dickish.

  113. 113
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    I am Father Battleaxe of Equanimity.

  114. 114
    Cacti says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Could you just use Manning as a name?

    I prefer inmate Manning or convicted felon Manning.

  115. 115
    Cacti says:

    Poor little convicted criminal and his cheering section.

    It’s just bad form not to honor all of his whims.

  116. 116
    Suzanne says:

    @Cacti: What about people you know who go by their middle names, or nicknames? Do you not do that, because no court recognizes your friend “Biff”? Don’t all people have the right to be called what they want?

  117. 117
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Cacti:

    I’m not really big on physically punishing prisoners — incarceration should be more than enough punishment for anyone’s fee-fees. I guess Sheriff Joe is having more influence on your thinking than you admit.

  118. 118
    Cacti says:

    @Suzanne:

    What about people you know who go by their middle names, or nicknames? Do you not do that, because no court recognizes your friend “Biff”? Don’t all people have the right to be called what they want?

    I don’t indulge felons with narcissistic personality disorder.

  119. 119
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Suzanne: Puerile it is. I think Manning committed crimes for which s/he should be punished. OTOH, I do not think that Manning should not receive any and all appropriate medical treatment for any medical condition. Honestly, I don’t know a fucking thing about the condition. I won’t speculate as to legitimacy or illegitimacy. I won’t speculate as to Manning’s gender. I will do my best to acknowledge Manning’s statements about gender. At the same time, it is weird for me. The weirdness is my problem.

  120. 120
    Yatsuno says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): A) Bleg this.

    B) Give me a paycheck. I need bread to get outta town this weekend but next two paychecks are basically free money besides normal bills.

  121. 121
    Cacti says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I’m not really big on physically punishing prisoners — incarceration should be more than enough punishment for anyone’s fee-fees. I guess Sheriff Joe is having more influence on your thinking than you admit.

    Much of Sheriff Joe’s brutality is unleashed on pre-trial inmates who couldn’t make bail, and are presumed innocent under the law.

    Not the case with Inmate Manning.

  122. 122
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Cacti:

    So physical punishment of inmates is A-OK with you as long as they’ve been convicted first?

  123. 123
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Yatsuno: Deal! I’ll change the nym once you get the checks squared away. Mr. Q’s is late because he’s VP of a small company with cash flow issues at the moment.

    And I’ll try to bleg the cause outside of late night threads. We got a generous donation from here, though. She knows who she is – thanks again.

  124. 124
    Cacti says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    So physical punishment of inmates is A-OK with you as long as they’ve been convicted first?

    The only person who mentioned physical punishment is you, chief.

    But keeping whacking away at that straw man if it makes you feel better.

  125. 125
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @eemom:

    What’s the innacuracy? How am I supposed to know you allege copyright infringement as opposed to plagiarism?

    I don’t take notes on your comments.

    Sheesh…you used to be fun.

  126. 126
    Suzanne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: The name struck me as the inverse of one of Slate’s “aptronyms”.

    If any mental health disorder is listed in the current DSM, I think the military should provide any treatment recommended by a physician. That would certainly include hormones and sex-reassignment surgery.

  127. 127
    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:

    @Cacti: Now I know you’re just an asshole. Personality Disorders are actual conditions – of the brain, which result in behavioral patterns – that require a trained professional diagnosis.

  128. 128
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Cacti:

    So denying medical treatment doesn’t count as physical punishment? Schizophrenic inmates should be denied medication because it’s not a “real” disease, just one inside their heads?

    I mean, I get it — you’re one of the people who thinks that gender dysmorphia doesn’t exist and transgender people just need to, you know, be normal and shit. Which puts you about 15 years behind most of the rest of society.

  129. 129
    Cacti says:

    @a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):

    Now I know you’re just an asshole. Personality Disorders are actual conditions – of the brain, which result in behavioral patterns – that require a trained professional diagnosis

    His defense team put that evidence in the record during the sentencing phase from expert testimony.

    Best not to fly off the handle when you’re not in possession of the facts.

  130. 130
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cacti: Manning’s condition may not have been relevant for sentencing. It is relevant for how his sentence is carried out.

  131. 131
    Cacti says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder[1] in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity.

    I would think that should be treated rather than indulged.

  132. 132
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cacti: Define “treated rather than indulged.”

  133. 133
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Cacti:

    So, I’m guessing that your conclusion as to needed medical treatment comes from your expertise and treatment of the individual question?

    I know it seems odd, but I’m going by the testimony of Manning’s own doctors and legal team. I didn’t realize you were an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of gender dysmorphic disorder and can diagnose Pvt. Manning through the media to let us all know that her current doctors are lying. What was your educational background, again?

  134. 134
    Cacti says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Define “treated rather than indulged.”

    Clinical strategies are outlined by Heinz Kohut, Stephen M. Johnson and James F. Masterson, while Johns discusses a continuum of severity and the kinds of therapy most effective in different cases. Schema Therapy, a form of therapy developed by Jeffrey Young that integrates several therapeutic approaches (psychodynamic, cognitive, behavioral etc.), also offers an approach for the treatment of NPD. It is unusual for people to seek therapy for NPD. Unconscious fears of exposure or inadequacy often cause defensive disdain of therapeutic processes. Pattern change strategies, over a long period of time, are for the narcissist to work on increasing their ability to become more empathetic in everyday relationships. To help modify their sense of entitlement and self-centeredness schema is to help them identify how to utilize their unique talents and to help others rather than for their own personal gain. This is not going to change their self-perception of their “entitlement” feeling but more so help them empathize with others. Another type of treatment would be temperament change.

    Anger, rage, impulsivity and impatience can be worked on with skill training. Medication can also be an effective addition if needed.

    “I’m Chelsea, make me a woman” immediately after conviction sounds an awful lot like a narcissist’s cry for attention knowing that his headline grabbing event is going to be out of the news soon.

  135. 135
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cacti: You do criminal defense work, right? Honestly, the battered woman defense makes no intellectual sense to me. Why would a woman stay in such a situation? But it turns out that it is real even if I don’t understand it. People are weird.

  136. 136
    Cacti says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I know it seems odd, but I’m going by the testimony of Manning’s own doctors and legal team. I didn’t realize you were an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of gender dysmorphic disorder and can diagnose Pvt. Manning through the media to let us all know that her current doctors are lying. What was your educational background, again?

    I was equally unaware of your background in clinical psychology and psychiatry, that makes you entirely willing to handwave away the fact that Inmate Manning is a diagnosed narcissist.

  137. 137
    Cacti says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    You do criminal defense work, right? Honestly, the battered woman defense makes no intellectual sense to me. Why would a woman stay in such a situation? But it turns out that it is real even if I don’t understand it. People are weird.

    If you figure it out, share it with my sister in law.

  138. 138
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cacti: My point is that shit goes on that we “normals” don’t understand. It doesn’t mean it isn’t real Also, I am thankful everyday that I don’t have to deal with it.

  139. 139
    Cacti says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    My point is that shit goes on that we “normals” don’t understand. It doesn’t mean it isn’t real Also, I am thankful everyday that I don’t have to deal with it.

    Also, too, it’s been a couple of years since I last practiced crim def.

  140. 140
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cacti: Manning appears to have real shit going on. This does not diminish what s/he did. OTOH Manning’s treatment going forward should recognize what is going on.

  141. 141
    AxelFoley says:

    @The Sheriff’s A Ni-:

    @Botsplainer: @AxelFoley: As an Obot of good standing, let me put it kindly:

    Fuck you.

    Chelsea Manning fucked up, Chelsea Manning will spend 12 to 35 in Leavenworth, but shitting all over her gender dysphoria? Fuck no. Take that act over to Erick Erickson. Not here.

    Whoa, whoa, whoa, muthafucka. Fuck YOU.

    I could give a damn about Manning’s dysphoria. That’s his deal. He wants to become a woman, fine. No problem with that.

    My problem with him is trying to use it to excuse his actions and gain sympathy. Fuck that noise.

    I’m normally cool with you, but you stepped out of line with that shit.

  142. 142
    AxelFoley says:

    Fucked up my quote, but you get my meaning.

    Sorry, but I have no sympathy for Manning with all the shit he did.

  143. 143
    Original Lee says:

    @Mnemosyne: I had forgotten about that! Mine is Matron Draw-and-Quarter of Reverence.

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