Manning Court Martial Update

On Monday, the Trial Counsel rested their sentencing phase case in chief.  Yesterday, the Defense began their sentencing case, and then and this morning, the Defense put on two military psychiatrists, an Army Captain (O-3) who treated PFC Manning prior to his fateful deployment, and a Navy Captain (O-6) who interviewed PFC Manning extensively for his RCM 706 (sanity) board.  Both doctors were called by the Defense, and testified about their dealings with Manning as a patient and subject.  Both doctors stated that Manning has gender identity disorder and narcissistic personality traits.  Both, according to CNN and the Washington Post testified that these were contributing factors in PFC Manning’s misconduct.  I do not know at this time how they testified under cross examination by the Trial Counsel.  Note that the RCM 706 board found that PFC Manning was legally sane at the time he engaged his misconduct and was further able to assist in his own defense.

PFC Manning’s aunt and sister will apparently take the stand today, and the Defense has announced that PFC Manning will address the Court.  I haven’t been able to find anything as to whether it will be a sworn testimony, subject to cross examination and the penalties of perjury or it will be an unsworn statement (something not available in civilian court.)

As per all of these posts, you may find unofficial transcripts here, provided by the Freedom of the Press Foundation.  You might wish to consider tossing them some coin if you find their service useful.  Additionally, here is the link to the Army’s FOIA Reading Room for the Manning trial, including all of the unclassified case filings and rulings.

Also too, open thread

UPDATE: PFC Manning is addressing the Court right now.  I do not have any information as to whether or not it is the sworn or unsworn statement.  According to Breaking News twitter feed, “Bradley Manning tells court-martial he apologizes for his actions, says he hurt US – @Reuters

UPDATE 2: PFC Manning’s statements to the Court are an unsworn statement, per AP.

UPDATE 3: PFC Manning’s unsworn statement to the Court, h/t Little Green Footballs:

First your Honor. I want to start off with an apology. I am sorry. I am sorry that my actions hurt people. I am sorry that it hurt the United States. At the time of my decisions, as you know, I was dealing with a lot of issues— issues that are ongoing and they are continuing to affect me.

Although they have caused me considerable difficulty in my life, these issues are not an excuse for my actions. I understood what I was doing and the decisions I made. However, I did not truly appreciate the broader effects of my actions. Those effects are clearer to me now through both self-reflection during my confinement in its various forms and through the merits and sentencing testimony that I have seen here.

I am sorry for the unintended consequences of my actions. When I made these decisions I believed I was gonna help people, not hurt people. The last few years have been a learning experience. I look back at my decisions and wonder, ‘How on earth could I, a junior analyst, possibly believe I could change the world for the better over the decisions of those with the proper authority?’

In retrospect I should have worked more aggressively inside the system as we discussed during the Providence Statement and had options and I should have used these options. Unfortunately, I can’t go back and change things. I can only go forward. i want to go forward. Before I can do that though, I understand that I must pay a price for my decisions and actions.

Once I pay that price, I hope to one day live in the manner I haven’t been able to in the past. I want to be a better person— to go to college— to get a degree— and to have a meaningful relationship with my sister’s family and my family.

I want to be a positive influence in their lives, just as my Deborah has been to me. I have flaws and issues that I have to deal with, but I know that I can and will be a better person. I hope you can give me the opportunity to prove— not through words, but through conduct— that I am a good person, and that I can return to a productive place in society.

Thank you, your Honor.

Queue stupid comments about Big Brother making him love the system in 3…2…1…






133 replies
  1. 1
    Ted & Hellen says:

    I wish the defense were not taking this tack.

    His release of the documents was justified on its own merits and his thinking in doing so was honorable and solid.

    So why turn around and use gender identity issues as an excuse for justifiable behavior?

    Bullshit.

  2. 2
    gbear says:

    Both doctors stated that Manning has gender identity disorder and narcissistic personality traits

    I remember back to when I was struggling to come out as gay how I was leaking secret documents all over the place. It’s a battle.

  3. 3

    They’re using gender identity issues as part of an insanity plea? That angers me. I know too many TGs. They go through enough hell without anyone pushing the ‘mentally disturbed’ angle.

  4. 4
    NCSteve says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Because maybe they think their job as his defense lawyers is to keep their client’s stay in a military prison as short as possible rather than give you a warm justicey feeling in your tum-tum?

  5. 5
    NCSteve says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: No, it’s not an insanity plea. That was foreclosed before he was tried. Instead, its a mitigating factor being offered in a sentencing hearing. They’re saying please take into account the fact that he was going through the very hell you’re talking about in deciding how harshly to punish him.

  6. 6
    Yatsuno says:

    @gbear: @Frankensteinbeck: Yeah. It’s bullshit. But unless they’re thinking mitigation then it shouldn’t be an issue at all. And I can’t see how this is a mitigating factor.

  7. 7
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @NCSteve:

    Bitch.

  8. 8
    coin operated says:

    Mitigating factors? Sounds a lot like “Throw shit against the wall…see what sticks.”

    Of course, they would be shitty defense attorneys if they didn’t try every trick in the book.

  9. 9
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Ted & Hellen: No, there was no merit for it.

    I apologize ahead in advance of getting flamed by most people here, but I do not understand why Bradley Manning is a hero. He turned work that career civil servants in the State Department had been working on for years into a waste. He turned that dirtbag Julian Assange into some kind of hero, when he’s a fucking sketchbag at best.

    I understand the government isn’t perfect, certainly when it comes to what went down in Iraq at instances, but he’s a goddamn fool for thinking this would turn out well. I have zero sympathy for him whatsoever. I don’t care, call me a fucking asshole. This is what happens when people my age do shit without thinking it through. Same goes for that jerkoff Snowden.

  10. 10
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    You ARE a fucking asshole. It’s good you realize it at least. Now get to work on changing it.

    It sucked too when the years long work of all those valuable civil servants in Nazi Germany was blown to shit by those jerkoff Allies.

    Fuck Godwin. Spade’s a spade.

  11. 11

    @Ted & Hellen:

    His release of the documents was justified on its own merits and his thinking in doing so was honorable and solid.

    Interesting. Manning collected personal service information on every solider in Iraq at the time and published it for the whole world. That’s personal data the government is required to have in order to operate a military. And you claim releasing that is justified.

    However if the same government collected the same data on you and kept it confidential, even if they never actually looked at it, you claim that is unconscionable and illegal.

    I have no idea how you could reconcile those two viewpoints, other than the usual teaparty attitude of fuck you, I got mine.

  12. 12
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @👾 Martin:

    Don’t care. They can release all my personal info any time. I’ts very boring.

    Fuck the military.

  13. 13
    feebog says:

    His lawyers are doing what they are supposed to do, try to get him the shortest possible sentence. And they have to go with what the doctors have diagnosed, they are kind of boxed in there. I don’t consider Manning a hero, and being diagnosed with a narcissistic personality explains a lot. All that said, I don’t think he belongs in jail for scores of years.

  14. 14

    @Ted & Hellen: So you have no problem with the NSA collecting any of that on you then? Ok, noted. Everyone else here should note this as well.

  15. 15
    The Dangerman says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    His release of the documents was justified on its own merits and his thinking in doing so was honorable and solid.

    I would agree with you if Manning read all 400,000 documents and carefully considered each one as to whether or not it should be released. If he didn’t, he’s a shit. I know where my money is.

  16. 16
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @👾 Martin:

    Not what I said, dipshit.

    Fuck the NSA too, they already have my shit. If they want to dump it on the world along with everyone else’s, let them. I’m sure my particular information will be of great interest.

    That said, that’s not what we are talking about here , is it? Which is why you are diverting and obfuscating.

    Sometimes, when you belong to a bloated, industrial killing machine larger than all others in the world put together, dedicated to murder and mayhem across the globe, accountable to no one, shit’s gonna go down.

    Did I mention fuck the military?

  17. 17
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @👾 Martin:

    Everyone else here should note this as well.

    lol

    You’re a piece of work. Will you alert the authorities, comrade?

  18. 18
    Amir Khalid says:

    I don’t agree with the argument that Manning broke the rules in a conscientious effort to blow the whistle on anything the US military was doing. As I recall, neither he nor his lawyers ever argued that. So anyone who argues it now is pulling shit out of their ass.

    As for his sentence, justice will be done if Manning’s lawyers secure him a relatively short prison sentence, I reckon. The US Army as an institution is not without blame here. It accepted a kid with personal problems that made him unsuitable. It gave hm access to the sensitive communications he leaked. It compounded the problem by mistreating him in custody. Let Manning do not more than 10 years, say, and call it even.

  19. 19
    chopper says:

    @👾 Martin:

    and of course you know where ‘no right to privacy’ leads, right?

  20. 20
    raven says:

    @The Dangerman: Please don’t quote it.

  21. 21
    Chris says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I get it. So, Snowden and Greenwald are heroes, for “revealing” the unconscionable practice of gathering personal data on private citizens. AND, Manning and Assange are heroes, because it totally doesn’t matter that they gathered “boring” personal data on private citizens.

    Pull the other one. It’s got bells on.

  22. 22
    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader says:

    Fuck everyone for everything.

  23. 23
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Ted & Hellen: I’m pretty sure if you do a poll of the regulars at this fine blog, you’ll find more people who think you’re a total piece of shit. All you do is come on the blog and troll your ass off, without any regard for reality. Maybe you think we live in a fucking world with unicorns and candy canes growing like wheat in a field, but your attitude about anything regarding Obama is fucking tiresome. In fact, you’ve pretty much reached the other end of the spectrum, where far left and far right meet – it’s all about purity, fuck the rest. Honestly, you contribute less than zero to the conversation, unless you count how many times you’ve been shat in the eyes for the stupidity you spread here.

    The fact you keep coming back for more punishment suggests you sadly have very little going on in your life besides being a dick on an Internet forum where NOBODY FUCKING LIKES YOU OR GIVES A SHIT ABOUT WHAT COMES OUT OF YOUR PEA-SIZED BRAIN

  24. 24
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader:
    Now there’s a thought I can get behind.

  25. 25
    chopper says:

    @Chris:

    snowden revealed that the gubbermint is doing something i couldn’t possibly care less about! he’s a hero!

  26. 26
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Chris:

    Not what I said, of course.

    That you, Mnemosyne?

  27. 27
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Nope, sorry. Chris is his own independent person, unlike your sock puppets.

  28. 28
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @chopper:

    What part of this can’t you grasp:

    Sometimes, when you belong to a bloated, industrial killing machine larger than all others in the world put together, dedicated to murder and mayhem across the globe, accountable to no one, shit’s gonna go down.

  29. 29
    The Moar You Know says:

    You wouldn’t see the mental issues brought up this quickly if the defense had anything better. They obviously don’t.

    His release of the documents was justified on its own merits and his thinking in doing so was honorable and solid.

    @Ted & Hellen: The law disagrees.

    This is what happens when people my age do shit without thinking it through. Same goes for that jerkoff Snowden.

    @PsiFighter37: I was talking with someone the other day after an encounter with one of my GenX cohorts that was less than pleasant.

    I told her that I thought for a long time that the Boomers were going to go down as the shittiest generation in American history, but that I no longer believed that was going to be the case – I think GenX, by the time we’re done fucking up society, will be remembered by history as far, far worse.

    And we’re raising kids that will end it all.

  30. 30
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Amir Khalid: That will doubtless be part of his Defense’s closing arguments on sentencing. That he had problems, that the Army should have taken better care of him, that he has accepted responsibility for his actions as illustrated by his guilty pleas and his apology to the Court, and further illustrated by not tying up a panel of officers and NCOs who have other things to do (by choosing the Military Judge Alone in his forum selection.)

    Most lawyers I know, both military and civilian who practice at the military bar are predicting a sentence somewhere between 10 and 20 years, with most of them coming down at 10-15. A couple of lawyers who have practiced in front of this Judge, COL Lind, however, aren’t so so sure. They say that she will give Manning every possible break and the benefit of every possible doubt, and then hammer him near the high end of the resulting sentence range, so they are thinking 25 to 30 years. Personally, I think 15 years is adequate for all legitimate purposes. That would result in a sentence of about 9 years additional confinement after his existing sentencing credits are applied and assuming that he earns good time of 1 month off of every 6 months adjudged by good behavior.
    His sentence, whatever it is, will be automatically docketed for appeal with the Army Court of Criminal Appeals under Article 66, UCMJ, since any sentence will almost certainly be longer than six months confinement and almost certainly include a punitive discharge.

  31. 31
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    at this fine blog, you’ll find more people who think you’re a total piece of shit…NOBODY FUCKING LIKES YOU…

    lol Fucking grow up, douche.

    Oh boo hoo. Nobody on an Internet forum dominated by MIC apologists likes me…boo hoo.

    Read this: I don’t care. Your loathing tells me I’m on the right track. Unlike you, I don’t come to BJ to make up for the friends I can’t make in real life. That is your gig and that of your buds like Mnemosyne who post all their personal problems here because no one IRL gives a shit.

    Fuck you, loser.

  32. 32
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @chopper: Not sure whether this is trolling / reverse trolling / whatever, but I had a discussion with a good friend of mine about this.

    Is there something about what Snowden revealed that’s troubling? Sure. But was the law broken? It doesn’t seem so, unless you impute some kind of SCOTUS ruling that hasn’t been handed down yet. But when you realize that you and I are giving away fucking information as we type this shit, so we may have different ads showing up in our web browser once we refresh the page – you have to realize that your privacy is a fucking illusion when it comes to the Internet. The only reason it blows up on the far right and far left is that both are inherently distrustful of government – the far, far left bitches and moans about how bad government is for doing so little, while the far right (much more on the right than the left) will raise hell about how much the government is doing.

    They’re just 2 peas in the same fucking pod.

    Now, I am more than happy to discuss fixing the Patriot Act and whatever else has been passed over the past decade when it comes to these laws – but when we get to realpolitik, this shit is not changing anytime soon – and there are more important fish to fry than by blowing our fucking wad on some nutjob emobag 30 year-old who wasn’t smart enough to realize that GOING TO CHINA, THEN MOTHER RUSSIA, WASN’T GOING TO PAINT HIMSELF IN THE MOST FUCKING FAVORABLE LIGHT!

    Seriously, Snowden is a fucking idiot. I think it’s more of a crime he got hired by Booz Allen in the first place.

  33. 33
    gbear says:

    @PsiFighter37: I’m in your camp. No flames from me.

  34. 34
    chopper says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    the NSA is collecting info on regular people like you and me. you don’t give a shit. let em! let em publish it, even. yet snowden is a hero for revealing this absolutely meaningless practice.

  35. 35
    Belafon says:

    @The Moar You Know: I personally think the only thing we’re going to be remembered for is why they’re named “Gen Y.”

  36. 36
    eemom says:

    know what I thought when I saw this thread?

    Sheeyit, there have been SO many rehashes, regurgitations and reiterations on the general themes here of late that perhaps everyone’s tired of all that…….and some substantive discussion of the actual topic might slip through this time.

    I actually thought that.

  37. 37
    Gin & Tonic says:

    This thread’s going to go well, I see. I think I’ll have a cocktail.

  38. 38
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @chopper:

    Fuck off, Obfuscatron.

    Again:

    Sometimes, when you belong to a bloated, industrial killing machine larger than all others in the world put together, dedicated to murder and mayhem across the globe, accountable to no one, shit’s gonna go down.

  39. 39
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @The Moar You Know: Not sure if by kids of Gen Xers, you mean me, but we’re trying to fix the mess. Just look at who we vote for, compared to everyone older than us. I grew up in the shadow of that asshole Dubya fucking shit up every step of the way. There’s no way I will vote for a Republican, ever, even for dog catcher, because of what that asshole did to this country.

    FWIW, I was born in ’86, so I don’t know what letter generation that makes me.

    @Ted & Hellen: Not a loser, I feel quite confident I’m doing okay in life. But that’s okay, you tell yourself that so you can negatively justify why you keep showing up here when I can count on half of 1 hand how many people might care what you think or say. You posting here is like pissing into the void, and the void sends back runny vomit into your face.

  40. 40
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Then go ahead and start catching up.

    PF37 +4 (ran out of the good shit and drinking Amstel Light now, while doing laundry for my upcoming trip)

  41. 41
    Mnemosyne says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    IIRC, statistically GenX is more conservative than the Boomers despite the “elderly=conservative” idea most people have. I never liked Reagan, but it didn’t really matter much since I didn’t turn 18 until after George HW Bush’s election.

  42. 42
    Arclite says:

    @PsiFighter37: Negative attention is better than no attention at all.

  43. 43
    TG Chicago says:

    Man, the wingnuts are just going off the rails about this rodeo clown.

    Actual tweets from Ace of Spades:

    https://twitter.com/AceofSpadesHQ/status/367746412068368385

    https://twitter.com/AceofSpadesHQ/status/367746516837883905

    If the fact that the president is black means that our rights to free expression have contracted, due to his blackness…

    …then what follows is that we should have no more minority presidents, in order that we may retain our actual guaranteed rights.

    Wow! Unfounded premise followed by blatantly racist conclusion. Nice work!

  44. 44
    Soonergrunt says:

    @PsiFighter37: You realize that every time you click on a Glenn Greenwald posting in the Guardian, more personal, private information about you, your location, the places you shop, the types of credit cards you use when you shop, and so on, are forwarded to over thirty companies, some of which have ties to European country intelligence agencies, and that this is more information than the NSA can collect on you without a court order?

  45. 45
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Mnemosyne: Keep in mind that very few of the elderly are Boomers(the oldest Boomers are 67) , most are Silents with a few and dying off Greatest.

    @PsiFighter37:You’re a Millenial, the last GenXer’s were born around 80-81.

  46. 46
    InternetDragons says:

    In a reasonable world, I would hope that acknowledging someone is going through the hell of working through a transgender identity, while in the still very homophobic military, could be under enough stress to act with poor judgement. I would hope that could be a mitigating factor.

    I’m afraid that, instead, it’ll be used as one more reason to pathologize transgender folk – especially by linking to narcissistic personality disorder. Personality disorders are quite a messy diagnostic area; there was a time in recent history when every troublesome woman was diagnosed as Borderline Personality Disorder.

    So while I don’t deny that personality disorders are real, I can’t turn away from the fact that psychiatric diagnosis too often gets mucked up with socio-political agendas. So I’m not sure any of this will help in Manning’s defense, and it sure as hell won’t help transgender people in general.

  47. 47
    chopper says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    but snowden, who worked for this bloated, industrial killing machine, is a hero for revealing an absolutely meaningless practice you couldn’t care less about.

    so to review, collecting information on private citizens, don’t care at all. revealing that practice makes you TEH BIGGEST HERO EVAR. releasing private information on people, who cares? meaningless. unless they’re soldiers, in which case YOU ARE ALSO TEH BIGGEST HERO EVAR. work for the bloated industrial killing machine? you’re an asshole. unless you’re snowden and you reveal something absolutely meaningless, then TEH BIGGEST HERO EVAR.

  48. 48
    gbear says:

    @eemom: @Gin & Tonic:

    MN Public Radio recently had a public forum on internet trolling called Uncivil Discourse: Comment Sections in the Digital Age. I’m going to listen to it this evening, but I thought it might be appropriate to drop into this thread.

  49. 49
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Personally, I think 15 years is adequate for all legitimate purposes. That would result in a sentence of about 9 years additional confinement

    I too would consider that a fair sentence.

  50. 50
    chopper says:

    @TG Chicago:

    ah yes, the old right-wing ‘freedom of expression means i can say and do racist shit and nobody gets to call me on it’ line.

  51. 51
    marduk says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Congrats, another thread ruined so we can talk about you and your fucking superior political purity.

    Achievement unlocked: It’s all about meeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

  52. 52
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Soonergrunt: To be quite honest, I don’t care.

    Now, I know that’s not in line with the 4th Amendment – and I think we need to revisit this, particularly in light of the acceleration in personal computing technology – but honestly, I don’t have anything to hide from anyone. And, for the most part, I believe that government is filled with good people who aren’t interested / don’t have the time to spend more than fractions of their time on what people are doing.

    2 other points (and I respect you from the dKos days SG, so don’t take this wrong):

    1) What does this have to do with Manning

    2) Greenwald is a promotionalizing self-piece of firebagging shit; I wouldn’t click on his link even if it made a plate of chocolate fucking chip cookies materialize in front of me

  53. 53
    raven says:

    @marduk: He couldn’t do it without help.

  54. 54
    marduk says:

    @raven: There’s always someone to take the bait. That’s why trolls suck.

  55. 55
    Thlayli says:

    T&H is a masochist. He stomps around here, grabbing people by the shirt and shouting “SPANK ME! SPANK ME!” in their face. And we oblige him.

  56. 56
    The Other Chuck says:

    @TG Chicago:

    Man, the wingnuts are just going off the rails about this rodeo clown.

    That would imply that they’ve been anywhere near the rails.

  57. 57
    Will Reks says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    You’re hating the military for being a military?

    We could have no drones, no torture, no Abu Ghraib, few civilian casualties and still be where we are today repeating mistakes we made decades ago. This is a civilian problem.

  58. 58
    Betty Cracker says:

    God, the commenters under the AP article linked above are a bunch of empathy-free arseholes. I hope Manning gets a light sentence — time served even. I don’t think he’s a hero, but he’s a troubled kid who has been terribly mistreated.

  59. 59

    State sponsored contrarian troll: 1
    Commentariat: 0

    I know, I’m not helping.

  60. 60
    Yatsuno says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I hope Manning gets a light sentence — time served even

    I’m thinking somewhere in the 10-15 year range. No way he walks away with nothing. The leak was too massive and too reckless.

  61. 61
    Soonergrunt says:

    @PsiFighter37: Well, first, thanks for the kind words.
    I was just riffing off what you said in the post to which I linked. Nothing more. So it doesn’t have much of anything to do with PFC Manning except tangentially, but this IS an open thread, so I’m going to take the conveniently placed (by me!) escape hatch on that one.

  62. 62
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Thlayli: Is your nym from Watership Down?

  63. 63
  64. 64

    @Soonergrunt: Sorry, was referring to our troll here at the juice of balloons.

  65. 65
    raven says:

    Obama is going to have the 72 Dolphins for a visit that the Trickster didn’t do!

  66. 66
    Betty Cracker says:

    @raven: Ooo, that’s going to piss my fire-bagging, Dolphin-hating hubby off! Hahaha!

  67. 67
    Anne Laurie says:

    Soonergrunt, thanks for posting these updates — even when you know they’ll attract all the usual useful idiots complainers.

    As for the actual issue at hand, I agree with Amir (and you): By their own admission, Manning’s supervisors put a kid they considered unstable in a position where he’d be capable of doing great harm to others as well as himself. Whatever the “impact” of the material he released (only history can tell, and we may not be around for that), he’s already paid a high price for what he did. I’d vote for time served and a link to the help he’ll need to recover, were it up to me.

  68. 68
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    You posting here is like pissing into the void, and the void sends back runny vomit into your face.

    Runny vomit is an excellent analogy for what your contribute here.

  69. 69
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    Also, too: This must be the part where vicious, spewing Bots attack me personally, then whine about how the thread is all about me personally.

  70. 70
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    I too would consider that a fair sentence.

    Of course you would.

    Meanwhile, Bush and Cheney, who are responsible for everything surrounding the various wars…how much will your president’s military be sentencing them to serve?

    Douche bag.

  71. 71
    ruemara says:

    @PsiFighter37: Can’t say you’re wrong.

  72. 72
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Again, pretty sure it’s been more useful than whatever you do.

    @Ted & Hellen: I’m not an Obot, but I realize there’s no such thing as perfection. At least I don’t sit at home masturbating to the thought of Lyndon LaRouche’s magical five-eyed unicorn showing up through a triple rainbow and solving climate change, hunger, and giving the world peace simultaneously.

  73. 73
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @marduk:

    lol

    dumbass. talk about whatever you want to, dipshit.

  74. 74
    Yatsuno says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Yes Timmeh. We KNOW Timmeh. Only you are persecuted and insulted here. Only your words are above insult and sin and therefore we should acknowledge your brilliance and purity. All based upon your say-so. We KNOW, Special Timmeh.

  75. 75
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    God, the commenters under the AP article linked above are a bunch of empathy-free arseholes.

    Are you reading this thread? The comments from your compatriots? No less assholes than the AP folks. Hello?

  76. 76
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Anne Laurie: Well, he’ll get access to psychiatric services (but I don’t know how extensive) while in confinement. It’s an irony that the safest, cleanest, most progressive prisons in the US are run by the military. Certainly ever since the castle (the original Leavenworth Disciplinary Barracks) was closed down a few years ago. Eventually most of these people will be let out into the civilian world some day. Prior to the trial starting, PFC Manning was confined at the Midwest Joint Regional Correctional Facility, also on Fort Leavenworth, but not part of the USDB complex.

  77. 77
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Yatsuno:

    Why don’t you spend this valuable time of yours calling your boyfriend who keeps dumping you? Maybe he’s horny and feels like getting back together for an hour or so…

  78. 78
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    It’s an irony that the safest, cleanest, most progressive prisons in the US are run by the military.

    Says who? Links? Docs? Proof?

    Or is all that supporting evidence classified, Killer?

  79. 79
    Phoenician in a time of Romans says:

    Que stupid comments about Big Brother making him love the system in 3…2…1…

    “Stupid” comments?

    I’m sorry, but why exactly is it “stupid” to mention that Manning was tortured for months before this show trial and its “confession” took place?

    http://www.juancole.com/2013/0.....azizi.html

    http://www.theguardian.com/wor.....eatment-un

    —–
    The UN special rapporteur on torture has formally accused the US government of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment towards Bradley Manning, the US soldier who was held in solitary confinement for almost a year on suspicion of being the WikiLeaks source.

    Juan Mendez has completed a 14-month investigation into the treatment of Manning since the soldier’s arrest at a US military base in May 2010. He concludes that the US military was at least culpable of cruel and inhumane treatment in keeping Manning locked up alone for 23 hours a day over an 11-month period in conditions that he also found might have constituted torture.

    “The special rapporteur concludes that imposing seriously punitive conditions of detention on someone who has not been found guilty of any crime is a violation of his right to physical and psychological integrity as well as of his presumption of innocence,” Mendez writes.
    —–

  80. 80
    Yatsuno says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Oh Timmeh. How do you keep your dealings so miraculously pristine? You are just do above reproach! An insult has never come from your fingers! You.re just that SPECIAL!!!

  81. 81
    Thlayli says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yes. My favorite book as a child. Bigwig wasn’t a deep thinker, but he was fearless and totally dependable. I identified with that.

  82. 82
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Yatsuno: You know, even as a proud fellow Scorpio, you’re not required to keep taking the bait. Derailing is never a one-person achievement.

    Shorter: DNFTT.

  83. 83
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Thlayli:
    We at Balloon Juice are a caring commentariat.

  84. 84
    ruemara says:

    @Betty Cracker: This, too, is where I’m at. I feel for him. He was going through hell and it’s no slur on TG people to admit that it can be hell dealing with sexuality and gender issues. I think he released a few nuggets of gold and a buckets of classified info that was not his place to leak.

  85. 85
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    Dafuq!? I’m not American. Everyone here knows that.

  86. 86
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Amir Khalid: When you oppose T&H, it makes you an honorary American. Don’t try explaining that to the TSA, though.

  87. 87
    Keith G says:

    @Soonergrunt: Thanks for this discussion of a possible sentencing scenario. It helped this observer understand a bit more.

    I hope Manning gets a sentence on the lighter side of the scale. I wish he had done this differently, but not everything he did could be/was harmful. We will never know, but that is the problem. We should. Further, some of the total of was he did was positive. He has done a lot less harm/real damage than many others in uniform, and out, during this fucked up mess of the misuse of military resources.

    As long as the Pentagon can bury its mistakes and misadventures in either the dark of secrecy or the haze of patriotism, part of our democratic process (which ironically they get paid to protect) dies a little.

    And yes, inner turmoil can lead to a misevaluation of consequences. Do not doubt that. I feel it is a proper subject for possible mitigation…not an excuse.

  88. 88
    Chris says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    FWIW, I was born in ’86, so I don’t know what letter generation that makes me.

    I think we’re the millennials. (87 here, agreeing with everything you said).

  89. 89
  90. 90
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Thlayli: I loved that book too as a kid. Always wanted to name a dog Rowsby Woof.

  91. 91
    Keith G says:

    withdrawn while I sort a blockquote issue.

  92. 92
    Chris says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Bitch.

    @Ted & Hellen:

    You ARE a fucking asshole.

    @Ted & Hellen:

    dipshit

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Fuck you, loser.

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Douche bag.

    @Ted & Hellen:

    This must be the part where vicious, spewing Bots attack me personally, then whine about how the thread is all about me personally.

  93. 93
    Keith G says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    You realize that every time you click on a Glenn Greenwald posting in the Guardian, more personal, private information about you, your location, the places you shop, the types of credit cards you use when you shop, and so on, are forwarded to over thirty companies, some of which have ties to European country intelligence agencies, and that this is more information than the NSA can collect on you without a court order?

    And have those European country intelligence agencies ever pushed details of private communication out to the DEA’s Special Operations Division who then pushed it out to local police in the US who then made up a reason to make a traffic stop?

    You remember the NSA gift that allows locals with a badge to engage in “parallel construction” or as it might be known…Perjury by an officer of the law.

    I know, I know. For some here it’s: “Move along….nothing here to see.”

    I hope that this is not the type of behavior that many tens of thousands of Americans were just put in harm’s way to protect. It’s certainly not the type of behavior that George Washington put his life on the line to protect.

  94. 94
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Keith G:

    And have those European country intelligence agencies ever pushed details of private communication out to the DEA’s Special Operations Division who then pushed it out to local police in the US who then made up a reason to make a traffic stop?

    Probably. We share a lot of intelligence with European agencies. What, you thought the French and Swiss weren’t keeping an eye on annoying but not dangerous international fugitives like Roman Polanski?

  95. 95
    chopper says:

    @Keith G:

    And have those European country intelligence agencies ever pushed details of private communication out to the DEA’s Special Operations Division who then pushed it out to local police in the US who then made up a reason to make a traffic stop?

    it’s possible. which, by mistermix’s impeccable logic, means it’s happening right now!

  96. 96
    Yatsuno says:

    @Anne Laurie: Heh. I’m in a trouble making mood since I’m about to raise a major stink at work. Short version: I’m about to demand the union help me get a new boss. Plus I’m just giving Timmeh enough rope to hang himself.

  97. 97
    Keith G says:

    @chopper: Well Chop, the process is real:

    A former federal agent . . . described the process. “You’d be told only, ‘Be at a certain truck stop at a certain time and look for a certain vehicle.’ And so we’d alert the state police to find an excuse to stop that vehicle, and then have a drug dog search it,” the agent said. After an arrest was made, agents then pretended that their investigation began with the traffic stop, not with the SOD tip, the former agent said.

    Sooo, you are okay with this?

  98. 98
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne: I guess you are okay with parallel construction as well, cuz ya know…all the cool kids do it anyway.

  99. 99
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Ted & Hellen: If it was, I’m sure someone will leak it for you.
    I base that on stuff I’ve read from lawyers who practice in both spheres and have spent time in both military prisons and federal and state facilities. Not that it matters much. I’ve said it. You’ll discount it out of hand.

  100. 100
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Keith G: “And have those European country intelligence agencies ever pushed details of private communication out to the DEA’s Special Operations Division who then pushed it out to local police in the US who then made up a reason to make a traffic stop?”

    Unless you can prove that something IS happening here in the USA, I’m not going to freak out about that, either. Because if NSA used legal methods to get that info, which was then passed to DEA, well as long as they did it within the structure of existing law, I don’t particularly give a rat’s ass that they lied to drug dealers. The cops are allowed to lie to criminals, you know.

  101. 101
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Yatsuno: Derailing is derailing. While you’re mobbing the troll, you’re not discussing the issues!

  102. 102
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Yatsuno:

    Don’t forget that John says that his pet PedoTroll is really a nice guy who just likes to poke us for fun. I think he really likes Special Timmeh because he pumps up the post count here.

  103. 103
    burnspbesq says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I wish the defense were not taking this tack.

    It’s smart lawyering that hopefully won’t work. It should hardly come as a surprise to anyone that my hope is that Bradley Manning should only leave Leavenworth in a box. But he’s entitled to put on anything that is potentially of assistance to the court in determining the appropriate sentence. I’m not second-guessing his counsel’s judgment, and neither should you, since you’re even less qualified than I.

  104. 104
    Sly says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    Maybe you think we live in a fucking world with unicorns and candy canes growing like wheat in a field, but your attitude about anything regarding Obama is fucking tiresome.

    If Ted & Shitstain actually thought we lived in a world with unicorns and candy canes growing like wheat in a field, we’d hear nothing but pissing and moaning about how the unicorns’ horns are too big and the candy canes are too minty, which is EXACTLY WHAT THE MILITARY WANTS.

  105. 105
    burnspbesq says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader:

    Fuck everyone for everything.

    Alas, that’s likely to be the wisest thing written in this thread.

  106. 106
    Keith G says:

    @Soonergrunt:Therefore they are also lying (via the paper they file) to the courts. And if they lie to/about those very bad people (on whose say so, btfw?), do the lies make to the jury?

    How about if they expand the circle of very bad behavior the you don’t give a rats ass about? Just little nudge bigger, Will that be cool with you?

    Bottom line. Yeah cops can lie to suspects, as in pretending to be someone else, but do you give them a pass about lying about the reason the car is stopped, or the reason that the Black kid is frisked is something other than what is lawful?

  107. 107
    Miki says:

    @PsiFighter37: Ted &Helen is like green-leafies: cleans your colon.

  108. 108
    chopper says:

    @Keith G:

    wait, you’re telling me that european intelligence agencies push private communication information to the DEA? i mean, the process is real, right?

  109. 109
    Thlayli says:

    @Keith G:

    Is this technique being used to frame innocent people?

    Catching common criminals isn’t the NSA’s primary assignment, but if it happens as a by-product, then what’s the problem?

  110. 110
    Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Alas, that’s likely to be the wisest thing written in this thread.

    Fuck you.

  111. 111
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Keith G:

    I guess you are okay with parallel construction as well, cuz ya know…all the cool kids do it anyway.

    Aww, you’re learning how to troll your fellow commenters by claiming that if they’re okay with Situation A, they must be okay with Situation B. I’m so proud!

  112. 112
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne: You taught me well, Obi.

  113. 113
    burnspbesq says:

    @Keith G:

    Oddly enough, criminal defense lawyers and U.S. District Judges read the same stuff you do, and they will certainly know what to do with this information. There are newly revised prototype requests for Brady material, and motions to suppress based on the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine, sitting on hard drives all across this great country of ours. Can you say “game over?”

  114. 114
    Soonergrunt says:

    @burnspbesq: To say nothing of the report I read somewhere that over a 1000 subpoenas (or whatever they are called for civil actions) have already been filed against the NSA by criminal defense attorneys and attorneys in civil actions (particularly divorces).
    The government, having acknowledged that it has this information, apparently has a duty under the law to make it available.

    Maybe it was all bullshit, but I got a good chuckle out of it. Unintended consequences, and all.

  115. 115
    Keith G says:

    @Thlayli: Your “ends justifies the means” line of reasoning does not find much support in the views of those who spend a lot of time thinking about the tug of war between the criminal law and civil liberties.

    I am on the go right now,so instead of digging up links, I just suggest looking up Nancy Gertner, law prof. @ Harvard and Jeffrey Welty @ UNC – if you want. They have been commenting on this topic lately.

    @burnspbesq: Yup I hope so…Then there will be whatever comes next.

    Vigilance being the price of democracy, and all that.

  116. 116
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    At least I don’t sit at home masturbating to the thought of Lyndon LaRouche’s magical five-eyed unicorn showing up through a triple rainbow and solving climate change, hunger, and giving the world peace simultaneously.

    God, that’s hot. Go on.

  117. 117
    LAC says:

    @PsiFighter37: don’t direct your apologies to Ted and the frightened dog. Instead, buy his latest painting “50 feet from a schoolyard at all times ” or his masterpiece “ASPCA raid”.

  118. 118
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Chris:

    Chris, can you really be as dense as you are pretending to be?

    My point is not, and was not, that I take great umbrage to being attacked personally. My point is, and was, that the usual suspects here often start the name calling and personal attacks at me and the WHINE ABOUT HOW THE THREAD IS ABOUT ME.

    Please comment again when you catch me whining that any thread is ABOUT another commenter.

    Thanks.

    Oh, and fuck you, you moronic ass eating fuck.

  119. 119
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Odie Hugh Manatee:

    I think he really likes Special Timmeh because he pumps up the post count here.

    I’ve been telling you morans for years that this is exactly why Cole pays me to comment here.

    Dont’ like it? Bite me.

  120. 120
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @John Cole’s Pet PedoTroll: “Bite me. “

    A rabid dog wouldn’t bite your sorry ass you worthless piece of shit.

  121. 121
    LAC says:

    @Ted & Hellen: actually, I thought your presence was for three reasons: click bait, palate cleanser for those of us who like a sorbet of stupid between serious reading, and a way for you to build up your résumé for village idiot .com I mean,you don’t think “dogs playing poker while creepy male strips” is going to sell, do you?

  122. 122
    Chris says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    My point is not, and was not

    Oh, you had a point? Forgive me for stepping all over it. I was just commenting on the hilarity of you bitching about “vicious, spewing Bots attacking you personally.” I’m sure you didn’t mean to whine about anyone’s tone.

    Oh, and fuck you, you moronic ass eating fuck.

    “Bot.” Don’t forget “Bot.”

  123. 123
    LAC says:

    @Ted & Hellen: you need to stop looking in the mirror when you write. Your projection could become an Olympic event.

  124. 124
    Groucho48 says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    You realize you just made his night? There’s nothing a troll likes better than to get some one angry and divert a perfectly decent thread into a morass of name-calling. He’s probably toasting himself with the good Scotch at chalking up another win.

  125. 125
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Groucho48:

    Do you really believe shit like this when you write it?

  126. 126
    I Heart Breitbartbees says:

    Even though I’ve only been posting here a few days, I have been lurking for far longer. In spite, or maybe because of that, I still am not quite sure what I think about Ted & Helen. Although more than occasionally trollish, this individual makes some good points when he isn’t going full metal Nader. To Ted & Helen, I direct you to the retiring Tbogg’s “Your Mumia Sweatshirt” post on FDL.

    Now onto the actual reason for the thread, Bradley Manning. I care very little about why he released that data dump. There is very little he released, other than the Collateral Murder video, that was either unknown, unsuspected, or harmful. Yes, we knew our government thinks some other governments are full of corrupt, abusive assholes. The belief that we didn’t was a fiction that was useful to all parties involved. Also, what real, measurable harm did it cause? For those who think he deserves prison time, answer me that. While you’re at it, can you explain to me exactly how abuses of the 8th Amendment severe enough to draw Amnesty International’s attention, as well as abuses of his 6th Amendment rights, warrant anything less than a dismissal of all charges with prejudice? He was held in solitary before being convicted of any crime, held on a spurious “suicide watch” for months on end, naked, and forced to stand at attention, naked, at the start of every day. PFC Manning suffered some truly Abu Ghraib worthy shit, and even after military psychiatrists deemed him no threat to himself or others, he was kept on “suicide watch” in some of the most degrading conditions imaginable. I know this will be going Godwin, but we didn’t even treat fucking Nazi WAR CRIMINALS that badly. Our government’s hands are completely dirty on this. We didn’t even engage in the fiction of outsourcing this torture.

  127. 127
    chopper says:

    @I Heart Breitbartbees:

    as manning just found out the hard way, ‘but it wasn’t really harmful!’ Is not a useful defense for releasing classified information.

  128. 128
    I Heart Breitbartbees says:

    @chopper: Way to miss the point. I don’t care if he mainly acted as a whistleblower, or if that wasn’t part of his defense. The aspect of this case I find extremely troubling is the military’s complete abrogation of PFC Manning’s 8th Amendment rights, which were severe enough to garner the attention of Amnesty International and other human rights groups. His torture while in pretrial custody, and there really is no other word for it than torture, was severe enough to demand not only a dismissal of all charges with prejudice, but monetary compensation as well.

  129. 129
    LAC says:

    @chopper: here’s a poster whose first paragraph was about poor T&H- it is all downhill from there.

  130. 130
    I Heart Breitbartbees says:

    @LAC: Eat my dick. I did suggest T&H internalize the “Your Mumia Sweatshirt…” post by Tbogg, then used the term “full metal Nader” to describe said individual. I suppose that counts as a love-fest for T&H. If that’s what you consider love, then your version of foreplay must be horrifying.

    Do you in any way dispute my characterization of the suffering inflicted on PFC Manning? If so, please provide your documentation that is directly opposed to the observations of credible human rights groups and the attorneys and mental health professionals who have spoken about this case. I don’t like Manning. I also don’t like Assange, Snowden, Greenwald, or that Judas goat Adrian Lamo. If I were to meet them, my pacifist nature would work to their benefit. However, my opinion on torture, hiding war crimes, and human rights abuses is considerably lower than my opinion of these three deeply flawed and deeply irritating individuals.

  131. 131
    I Heart Breitbartbees says:

    For those who don’t like others on these fora for whatever reason, remember, even trolls can serve as chemo against groupthink. Groupthink is the cancer that has killed many fora on the Interbutz, including the comments at FDL and Kos. I would mention some right wing websites, but they’re full of crazies anyway. They were doomed from birth.

    I already miss Tbogg.

  132. 132
    I Heart Breitbartbees says:

    @I Heart Breitbartbees: Edit fail: I wrote three deeply flawed and deeply irritating individuals before I added Lamo and Greedwall, er, Greenwald.

  133. 133
    Groucho48 says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Yeah, you probably wouldn’t know good scotch from shinola. My bad.

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