Pope Francis reached out to gays on Monday, saying he wouldn’t judge priests for their sexual orientation in a remarkably open and wide-ranging news conference as he returned from his first foreign trip.
“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Francis asked.
Good question. I have a couple more: Are you going to tell that to the bishops? And how about a few deeds to back up the pretty words?
Belafon
I suspect the next pope will have to have been born in Vatican City. Their last two experiments at popes outside Italy have made the Catholic church look like it might care about people.
Face
But how will they judge non-priestly gays? Isn’t that the $200 bajillion dollar question, and the reason that this statement as quoted means almost nothing?
Frankensteinbeck
They’ll come to him, and demand to know why their heads just exploded. How it goes from there, I have no idea, but the guy who MAKES the rules just broke the first rule of Fight Club.
The Moar You Know
Shit, this guy’s going to end up like John Paul I – dead sitting up in his bed from a “heart attack”, no inconvenient autopsy needed.
Violet
@The Moar You Know: Yeah, that’s what I think. I can’t believe the stuff he’s saying. I’m getting rather fond of Pope Francis, much as I dislike the Catholic church.
scav
Ditto. What also struck me came later
That sounds rather like a defense against doing anything, certainly anything on the civil and legal front, against priests who have ‘confessed’ within the church and thus are forgiven and forgotten.
Nice words, but actions are more important.
Ash Can
The Church leadership has set the bar so low that even just a few nice words sound refreshingly good. I agree about the actions, though. It’ll be interesting to see if any follow, even at length.
@Belafon: I wouldn’t include the German-born pope in that.
IowaOldLady
When the Catholic Church denies communion to a politician for taking food from the poor, I’ll reconsider. Til then, no.
beltane
@Belafon: I don’t know. Pope Ratzinger was born outside of Italy and managed to avoid creating the impression that he cared much about people.
Frankensteinbeck
@The Moar You Know:
An interesting point. We just saw a coup evict Ratzi. Things must be pretty damn tense at the upper levels of the Catholic Church.
Violet
@beltane: Yeah, no kidding. Pope Emperor Palpatine certainly did not give the impression he cared about the little people.
Roger Moore
@Face:
The big question is what they intend to do to gays who act on their sexual orientation. This is more of the point that there’s nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to members of the same sex, only in engaging in homosexual acts. Since priests are supposed to be celibate, it shouldn’t matter whether they’re denying same sex urges or opposite sex urges, as long as they’re abstaining from sex. The only real progress will be when they accept that gay sex is acceptable, and I don’t see that coming anytime soon.
Violet
@Frankensteinbeck: I kind of think it’s why Pope Francis just doesn’t seem to care that much about his security. He figures someone’s going to get him one way or the other and he’d rather do as much good while he can. Or something along those lines.
Tonybrown74
Please and Thank You!
Too many gays are excited over the fact that the Pope doesn’t judge gays. Hoo – fuckin’ – ray!
I’m glad you acknowledge that you made a mess. Now, what you gonna do about cleaning all this shit up?
Belafon
@Ash Can:
@beltane:
You’re right; I didn’t remember that Ratzinger was from outside. I still suspect the ID card of the next one says something about speaking early Italian.
the Conster
All he’s done is make Sully happy. Wake me up when he says the same about birth control and the wimmins.
Joey Maloney
And how about a few deeds to back up the pretty words?
Such as sending international fugitive Cardinal Law back to the USA to face justice?
Rosalita
@The Moar You Know:
This. I hope you’re wrong.
At least he has the cojones to say these things.
jonas
1. He was talking about disciplining or defrocking *priests* who express homosexual tendencies — this is a pretty big deal: some more conservative elements in the Vatican are in favor of cracking down on seminaries that don’t weed out candidates for the priesthood who might be gay.
2. as archbishop of Buenos Aires, he was an outspoken opponent of legalizing gay marriage in Argentina
This guy may be great on social justice and poverty, but let’s not mistake him for any kind of liberal on questions of sexuality.
scav
And pragmatically, doesn’t the church have enough of a manpower issue to deal with that it would be in their interest not to lose all those now and future priests that now increasingly have other options beyond the beard of holy vestments?
Belafon
It’s funny how there are two types of comments here:
1. Wow, he said that? How long’s he going to live?
2. Well, he may have said that, but what’s he going to do about it?
Not that these are mutually exclusive, but I find the divide to be funny.
Emma
@Roger Moore: The only real progress will be when they accept that gay sex is acceptable. Actually it’s both less and more than that. They must accept that gays can be fully Catholics and that their sexual practices are not an impediment to that. And that, I agree, will never happen.
aimai
@Face: Yeah. “I won’t judge gay male priests” [who are my contemporaries and friends] is not equal to “I won’t continue to lead a church which discriminates against women, gay men and gay women on an everyday basis.”
Villago Delenda Est
John Paul II, despite his impending sainthood, was actually no saint. Ratzi was his right hand man, his enforcer. Ask John Hunthausen about all that…a guy who actually walked the walk, and got burned for pissing off the shitty grade Z movie star in the process, which then allowed JP II to show his true colors.
When assholes like Law and Dolan hang, with the Pope’s blessing, we’ll see.
Lee
I was skeptical about the whole Vatican/coup thing. I’m starting to think it might be true.
This is still a shocking turn of events for the Catholic Church. Could you have ever imagined Ratzinger ever making this kind of statement?
aimai
@Joey Maloney: Good point. I would love to see the day that Cardinal Law is stateless in some airport, beggging for asylum from Russia.
gelfling545
@scav: Later in these remarks he made clear that he was speaking of matters that did not involve criminal acts such as the sexual assaults.
Ash Can
@Roger Moore:
The Church has set up a nice catch-22 on that. The official stance is that any sex outside of marriage is a sin, and at the same time the Church refuses to recognize gay marriage.
Of course, if I had a nickel for every heterosexual Catholic (let alone gay Catholic) who, as with contraception, simply ignores the “no premarital sex” edict, I’d be too busy enjoying my intercontinental jet-setting lifestyle to comment on this blog.
scav
@gelfling545: That’s good to hear.
Gex
It saddens me that people are so overly impressed with what I consider to be a PR campaign, a rebranding effort that required the rare Pope retirement.
They still think we’re sick and wrong and going to hell. They just don’t want that to be people’s top impression of them anymore. And the reason for that is the anti-gay attitudes are driving people (read: money) away.
They still buy up hospitals and make them adhere to Catholic dogma. They still will be medieval on women’s health care issues. They will still work to make everyone have to follow Catholic dogma whenever possible.
The bottom line is, so long as they think gays are not natural, they will keep opposing marriage rights. Saying that they won’t be judging us doesn’t preclude that. Lots of the “nice” ones have been doing so all along. They don’t hate gays. They just want to protect traditional marriage. Nothing about deciding not to judge us changes anything else. And if anything else in their attitudes towards gays had changed, he would have said so.
Gin & Tonic
@aimai: Sort of a pedantic point, given your larger argument, but Edward Snowden is not stateless.
Ted & Hellen
Bingo. Talk is cheap.
gelfling545
One thing that people who have never been in the RC Church don’t understand is that practically everything anyone does is sinful in some manner or other as it “falls short of the glory of God”. As no one can actually meet this standard you have the atonement of Jesus on the behalf of man in theory & the Church muddling along accommodating a reasonable amount of “sinfulness” in day to day life in practice while enormous wickedness calls for excommunication. I thing Francis has just moved – or at least made a step towards moving- homosexuality into the day to day column & and away from the grievous offense column.
piratedan
seems to boil down to …. talk is cheap, show me some deeds.
Belafon
@Gex: Remember when Obama was against gay marriage?
I’m not going to give the pope too much credit, but the Catholic church is both older and larger than the US, and doesn’t exactly have a separation of church and state rule to help guide it. I’ve seen, from the inside, what happens when you try to turn an aircraft carrier too sharply, and this is a much bigger ship.
A lot of time, people start accepting gays when they first have to accept their own family members.
Violet
@aimai: The Pope also said something like “women need a more prominent role in the church” while following up with “no way they can be priests”. So he’s talking the talk, but there’s no walking going on.
I’m still getting a kick out of him living in a small apartment, mingling with the people, chiding Bishops for not being among the poor, etc. The Pope focusing on the poor is a good thing. I don’t remember that happening before. Tweaking the Bishops for living lives of opulence is amusing to me.
The Catholic church is still a big problem for society. I wish they’d actually focus on the things Jesus is purported to have focused on in the Bible. They don’t, so they cause all sorts of harm to a lot of people. I’m in no way a fan of the Church itself, but I do appreciate some aspects of the new Pope.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
I’m thinking that the next pope is unlikely to be a Jesuit, but that’s about as much insight as I have into the whole topic. As for opinions, JP II was not a saint in the least, and Ratzinger, well, heading the renamed office of the inquisition says it all.
Ash Can
@Gex: Pope Ratzinger’s pronouncement that homosexuality itself was intrinsically evil was a stark departure from the previous (and apparently once again current) Church stance that there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality per se, it’s the sex outside of marriage that’s the problem (which, as I mentioned above, the Church laity ignores anyway). Having said that, though, I don’t expect to see any changes in the Church regarding gay marriage in my lifetime. The Church leadership is made up of a weird amalgam of sexless and gay men who profess to be celibate, and they make pronouncements on marriage despite the fact that the institution is about as personally alien to them as anything can be. (And the laity realizes this, and pretty much takes what they say about how married and unmarried folks should act with a grain of salt.) Unless and until there’s lay input into marriage dogma, as was the case with Vatican II, AND that input isn’t roundly ignored, as again was the case with Vatican II, there isn’t going to be any change in the Church’s official stance on the institution of marriage.
geg6
@Violet:
Not me. He’s still a giant dickweed misogynist. Notice that he only talks about gay priests. Not gay nuns. Not gay parishioners. And he also explicitly said he will never go for female ordination.
For one reason or another, he and the actual powers that be have decided to go soft on gay priests, probably because Vatican City is the gayest city in the world. Almost impossible to hide that any more. But hatin’ on the wimmenz is still fine, dandy, and Vatican approved.
The only thing I give this guy credit for is his rhetoric on the poor and the Church’s and its adherents duty to do something about that. But this is nothing new. Hell, Ratzo had good rhetoric on that, too (but JPII, not so much).
Anyone who thinks anything at all has changed is either easily deluded or knows nothing at all about the Catholic Church.
Phil Perspective
@Gex: Dude!! Rome wasn’t built in a day. Yeah, the Church sucks. But when was the last time a Pope said what Frankie Baby is saying? Is Frankie going to smit down The Zombie-eyd Granny-starver, Cardinal Dolan and Bill Donohue? One day, I hope but it certainly must be making them uncomfortable since no Pope has talked smack to them before.
legion
I’d just like to point out that the Pope hasn’t actually _changed_ anything here. Being gay isn’t a sin, but doing gay things is – so the only way gays can be ‘good’ members of the church is to stay celibate their entire lives. Women aren’t scum, but still can’t be priests. None of this alters current church teaching or doctrine – it’s just saying the same things in a less dickish manner. The only thing Pope Francis is doing is trying to rein in the most hateful and unchristian branches of the church – which I do want to give credit for.
It’ll be a damn shame when that same group assassinates him for it.
maya
Rome was not built in a day nor will it be torn down in one. There are a few similarities with Pope Francis and our own beloved Prez. While a big improvement over 30 years of Compassionate and Roughshod Conservatism, 5 years in, we still find our government run by the interests of Goldman Sacks and the MIC, (Military Industrial Complex).
Pope Francis has provided some sunshine on the internal secret financial structure of Rome and that is a bigger item in the long run than his words on gayness, though I realize that for some, the latter is the only issue they are concerned with.
Perhaps, if he is a survivor, we can check back in with Pope Frank in 5 years and make a better comparison.
Gin & Tonic
@Ash Can: I don’t see how the RCC gets over the doctrinal hump, where the sole valid purpose of sexual relations is procreation. Marrieds who are unable to procreate or are past the age can still get it on, because there is at least the theoretical possibility of procreation if the good Lord were to wish it, but there’s no way the gay sexytime can lead to it. Sex, marriage, procreation are the indivisible trinity. Remove any one element and it’s sinful. I just don’t see how they get around that.
geg6
@Violet:
You’d be surprised to find out that you’re wrong about that. Ratzo actually spoke quite a bit about the poor and economic justice. Way, way, way, way more than that evil bit of garbage that was pope before him. That guy cared about nothing other than how to get press, getting his ego fed by large crowds of the people who he served so badly, how to make the church most resemble that of the Dark Ages, and how to make sure he and his cronies had as much power and money as possible regardless of how morally depraved any of them were. And this is who this pope and this church have just given a shortcut to sainthood. Pretty words that really don’t mean anything but get good press and easy admiration for doing nothing at all is pretty much all I’m seeing from this guy.
Violet
@geg6: Don’t get me wrong. I’m no fan of the Catholic church (see my subsequent post). But I do find it amusing that he’s tweaking the Bishops and chiding them for not being among the poor and living lives of opulence. When has a Pope done that? And he’s walking the walk, since he lives in a small apartment, not the Papal one.
The Church itself has tons of problems and does unimaginable harm to people. I’m not a fan.
Violet
@geg6: Well, I guess we’ll see. He’s only been Pope for a few months. Maybe he’s no different than the rest. Maybe he’ll actually change things. In five years I guess we’ll have a better idea.
Yatsuno
@Gin & Tonic:
Pfft. So much for an all-powerful God then huh? Fact is, if He wanted it it could happen.
The Moar You Know
@legion: The only way you can purge extremism from an institution and not just destroy it on the spot is like this – cut out the worst of the extremes first and then work your way back towards the center. By way of example, the GOP would like very much to do this, but I’m afraid they may have been hijacked beyond redemption.
As I said above. I think this guy’s lifespan is measurable in months, at best. He’s braver than me. I’d just quit and run.
catclub
@scav: I disagree. It seems to be saying we cannot forget, since we have laws that must be followed. God can forgive and forget.
However, IANAPope
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
I wonder if there’s some kind of distinction the Pope can draw between civil marriage and Catholic marriage so the church will stop funding anti-marriage equality laws. Honestly, that’s about as far as I can see a current Pope being able to go in that realm — recognizing that gay people are legally allowed to marry but continuing to refuse to let them marry in the Church.
He does seem to be walking the walk quite a bit more on the anti-poverty front than Pope Prada ever did. And I enjoyed him tweaking traditionalists last Easter by washing the feet of not only convicts but — gasp! — wimmens! And a Mooslim!
geg6
@Violet:
And when he makes the rest of them live like the poor, I’ll be impressed. I will, however, not hold my breath.
The dude is all talk and no action. He’s there for PR purposes. The people who think there was a coup and, somehow, they made Ratzo resign are no better than 9/11 truthers. This guy is there because TPTB want him there. And it’s all a smokescreen meant to make us all forget about the thousands of children they’ve raped and tortured, the women they scorn, and the greed that underlies the whole rotten enterprise.
catclub
@Yatsuno: “Fact is, if He wanted it it could happen.”
Ironic use of ‘fact is’.
How about: the big book of strange stories includes 90 year old women having children. ..
and laughing about it.
Violet
@geg6: Like I said, we’ll see how it goes. I agree with you that it’s likely not much will change. But who knows. Stranger things have happened.
patroclus
This qualifies only as a first baby step – as many have pointed out already, the Roman Catholics have numerous doctrinal problems about gays that are nowhere near overcome by a few non-judgmental statements. Baby steps are good – we all get excited when a baby takes its first few steps, but the true test is when and if the baby actually starts walking and talking. Wake me up when the RCC allows openly lesbian priests.
scav
@catclub: But it’s explicitly God in the first sentence, “We” in the second. “We don’t have the right to not forget,” Our (post-forgiving) forgetting seems to be mandatory. Although apparently he did clear up the whole civil law still applies to some degree.
Ash Can
@Gin & Tonic: Yup. When you have a bunch of people whose mindset is just about as far removed from the idea of marriage (and sex) as you can get making rules about how marriage (and sex) should work, naturally you end up with marriage and sex reduced to their mechanical parts, with a side of fall-back-on-tradition (with that tradition being “be fruitful and multiply” and make more Catholics). The laity know it’s silly, and generally do as they please. Couples who follow Church teaching to the letter are few and far between these days. What’s more, a majority of Catholic laity either don’t care about or are in favor of gay marriage. Like I said, I don’t expect the Church’s official stance on gay marriage to change in my lifetime. For the same token, though, I don’t expect to see the gulf between the laity and the Church leadership to narrow appreciably during my lifetime either.
Belafon
@catclub: If an omnipotent being wanted a man to be pregnant, then he could make it happen.
Kind of like I thought a God that started the Universe 13+Billion years ago, and then did nothing afterwards and yet ended up with the human race and the exact chosen people he wanted is far more powerful than a good that created everything all at once 6-10K years ago.
gene108
@The Moar You Know:
Since there’s still another living Pope, I think Francis could be more expendable than he realizes.
Gex
@Belafon: If you can’t see the difference, that’s bad news for gays. Marriage is an side issue. Obama never thought there was anything wrong with gay people. The Church STILL does.
ETA: Bad news for gays because if allies can’t see the difference between how the Church feels about us and how Obama feels about us, how well can they understand our issues?
Botsplainer
@Violet:
The guy is a true Franciscan. The order tends to draw people more interested in service.
Another Halocene Human
The regional and political implications of this map are amazing:
(activate javascript or allow the domain to run scripts):
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Maps-and-Data/State-Exchange-Map.aspx
You see ME, WI, PA left out of their regions due to pure political spite… AR with some good government hangover from Clinton, bucking the entire rest of the Southeast region, the mountain states, despite their racism, fixing stuff up for themselves (not enough of a Black population to screw?) and AZ, with its midwestern retirees, the lone Western state to do nothing.
I wonder if WY does any insurance regulation… It’s like a small city in population (or an Iceland) but with the geographic footprint of a state.
Blacks in the SE are fixing to get screwed by the refusal to expand Medicaid. Wonder if some young ladies will go North to have children just like some young women I knew in my day went to Canada (before Canada put a stop to it). Hm, more like have the baby then flee North when the 18 mos runs out. But you’d likely forgo family childcare (duh, this is why Obama is pushing for the childcare stuff… labor mobility… free the chained people).
dan
“And how about a few deeds to back up the pretty words?” Wow, tough crowd. Saying those words WAS a DEED, you lunkheads. That was a huge statement to make to Catholics, the clergy and the world. Joe Biden leaned in and said “This is a big fuckin’ deal.” And he is right. Give him credit for making that statement and making a stand and letting everyone know that the church is changing, regardless of whose head will explode.
Another Halocene Human
It’s not uncommon for family courts to order the non-custodial parent to pay for the kids’ healthcare premiums.
Those should be going way down now.
Interesting implications? Especially for those with multiple kids.
Another Halocene Human
@Botsplainer: I’m glad New Pope is giving the rich and comfortable verbal smackdowns. About fucking time.
Benedict is smarter than I thought. As long as he was pontiff the Choich was getting nothing but heat for his role in the child rape coverup. Very effective distraction.
Ratzinger for years worked beneath JPII’s celebri-pope shadow. He probably misses the freedom of those days as compared to the constant pressure and bad press of the hot seat.
kerFuFFler
I am waiting for the Pope to say, “If someone uses birth control and he/she searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?”
Acceptance of gays is important, but I believe even more harm is done to people worldwide by religions continuing to forbid birth control.
Another Halocene Human
@Belafon: Erm, might want to refresh yourself on that tally:
John XXIII – Italy – cared about people
Paul VI – Italy – moral coward
John Paul I – Italy – cared about people
John Paul II – Poland – cared about people (unless they were poor people in South America)
Benedict the whatever – Germany – muslim-baiter, Hitlerjugend, gay-baiter
Francis – Argentina (aka New Europe) – cares about people
Not really seeing a correlation here from which to draw any inferences.
Another Halocene Human
@aimai: Blame Italy–they let that dude cross the border on a daily basis and don’t pick his ass up.
Actually, I don’t think the Americans ever filed charges and requested extradition.
So plenty of blame to spread around.
Law was given the plum of Maria Maggiore. It’s an ugly 15th century architecture monstrosity planted atop what is believed to be the Sacred Grove of Juno.
Oh… old feuds die hard in Rome, my friends.
Another Halocene Human
Whatever happened to sacred groves, anyway? Having grown up in Northeastern woodland environment sounds like a nice custom. Even the Bible talks about cutting down asherot, the groves of Asherah (Ishtar/Ostarah, great Goddess of Babylon and Yahweh’s consort at least to some 300BCE Jews).
Lot of men with angry penises. I understand there’s a balm in Gilead for that.
Another Halocene Human
Whatever happened to sacred groves, anyway? Having grown up in Northeastern woodland environment sounds like a nice custom. Even the Bible talks about cutting down asherot, the groves of Asherah (Ishtar/Ostarah, great Goddess of Babylon and Yahweh’s consort at least to some 300BCE Jews).
Lot of men with angry p*****s, FYWP. I understand there’s a balm in Gilead for that.
Another Halocene Human
@gelfling545: Clearly a liberal by church standards–being able to parse a difference between consensual and non-consensual genital contact!
God’s Big Ol’ List Of Sins only speaks to the consent issue as to the degree of culpability of the rape-ee.
Another Halocene Human
@Gin & Tonic: I don’t see how the RCC gets over the doctrinal hump, where the sole valid purpose of sexual relations is procreation. Marrieds who are unable to procreate or are past the age can still get it on, because there is at least the theoretical possibility of procreation if the good Lord were to wish it, but there’s no way the gay sexytime can lead to it.
They could do a group Talmud study and declare a new Mishnah or whatever.
Miters are out and kippahs are in… suck it, Persians.
Mandalay
More Catholic molesting…
Mandalay
And this is how the bastards go about it…
Herbal Infusion Bagger
Even as an recovering RCers, there’s always the feeling of guilt, guilt, guilt – sins of omission and commission.
As soon as you yawn and open your bleary eyes, you’ve started sinning for the day. Although thinking about it, as you may have had impure dreams, you might not even have made it that far without staining your soul.
scav
There’s also this from Scotland Priest claims he was abused by older cleric, and church is punishing him for speaking out.. veddy veddy interesting read as this is the walking, sharp active edge of things.
boatboy_srq
@Belafon: JP1 did a pretty good job of that, too, and he was Italian. He did such a good job at it, he got promoted rather early.
IIRC there was some Vatican statement on his early departure, but “poison” never made it into the final report.
boatboy_srq
@Another Halocene Human: I see you beat me to it.
Gex
Belafon – sorry if I was snippy. I should stay away from this topic on the internet.
dollared
This Pope is an amazing breath of fresh air. We should be celebrating his smackdowns of the rich and the bishops. And let me remind you gay civil rights absolutists – the political effect of the RCC was liberal from 1900-1976, and conservative until now, and anything that tips it back to liberal – including clear rhetoric repudiating inequality, militarism and capitalistic excess – trends Catholics back to the liberal side.
If we could tilt 15% of current Catholic voters back to the Democratic Party, the Democrats would have supermajorities in every state legislature in the quadrangle from Massachusetts to Maryland to Wisconsin to (gasp) Missouri. And that would tip the US to 60% Democratic vote for US Congress. Anti-gay-employment discrimination policies could then be implemented.
Gay folks, you don’t need Francis to bless your sexytime. You just need him to actively support economic justice and tone down the divisiveness on all the sexual issues, gay and straight.
This is good news. Full stop.
LolaDelGato(formerly bcinaz)
…and Bill Donohue’s head explodes in 3…2…
Cermet
Who gives a fuck, what that clown says to the bishops? Since half are gay anyway I think they ‘got the message’. The ONLY issue is – will the pope tell the church officials that child rape and or molestation will have zero tolerance and ALL bishopes will be REQUIRED to notify the local police the instance, on pain of removal from office, that a priest is a possible pedophile. Then, maybe this ass wipe head of a child rapist church will earn some respect.
RobNYNY1957
A friend of mine was a seminarian at Catholic University of America in the 1970’s. He arrived there a virgin, but within days that changed. As he says, “I was having sex two or three times a day, but I could have had it as often as I wanted.”
RobNYNY1957
This is a big improvement over Pope Ratzinger’s “intrinsically disordered” statement …
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html
… but there is still a long, long way to go before the RCC gets to the 1960’s on this and a lot of other issues.
Xenos
@gene108:
Good point. Just wait until he gets fed up with Rome and decamps to Avignon.
TAPX486
@the Conster: While he preaches against marginalizing any one based on who they are, he has already said the question of women as priests has been settled. Well as long as she can not become a priest, then a woman has been marginalized by her church.
greenergood
“If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?” Problem is, for years it’s been ‘If someone is
gaya paedophile and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?’ – Francis needs to go after the paedophile priests and leave the ghey alone.Comrade Luke
I’m sure they’ll probably beat the bishops.