Had some great chats with the folks from MARC, and the final tally (as of now, so I guess maybe it isn’t so final after all) is $15,868.00, which is mind boggling.
I’m sharing an email from April, who does the weekly runs to the spay/neuter clinic an hour away, taking 20 animals every time and spending all day waiting for the surgeries to be performed, and she had this to say after I asked about long-term plans to build a no-kill facility:
John,
I want you to be assured that we will keep our program well rounded and work on all facets of animal welfare, so that we can make the most possible progress in this area. There have been quite a few rescuers in Marion County before, but they didn’t try to do it ALL. Rescue, Teach, and Prevent. I hope we can move mountains by changing the way rescue is done.
We will never give up on being a no kill community. We are working closely with all 4 mayors trying to get them to let us help them be build and aim for no kill shelters. Its a huge job. Our rural county is so slow to realize that animals should be treated like family. They are not possessions to be chained out and barely tolerated. We have rescued about 450 animals in the last 16 months. That’s a lot for a tiny group. :) We don’t always brag about what we have done, but I think we might start MAKING the time to share our happy endings. We want a no kill shelter in our area, but we feel that we have to first teach the people to stop allowing so many unplanned pet pregnancies. I do feel that we are making some real progress. Our dream is that one day that an open intake no kill shelter will be very possible. But our county has had some very bad history of shelters gone berserk. One opened up about 10 years ago in a hot metal building. The group (whom we don’t know) had good intentions I felt, but didn’t realize that within the first month there would be 500 dogs brought in. They weren’t prepared to spay and neuter and vaccinate them all. It turned into a nightmare. Germs spreading, dogs breeding etc. We are gun shy of the shelter concept here, because the common citizens think its a place to dump their puppies and don’t get the mother and fathers fixed.
If there is another community shelter, it will not be like that one. And we are hoping to get a spay and neuter clinic to offer the free spays that most of the low income citizens need here. Then, when there is a great no kill shelter, the intake numbers can be manageable and the animals will receive the love, attention and vet care they need while they are in the shelter.
Living in a county with no animal control is a challange. Marion county actually has feral dogs here. Sounds absurd to people like us who aren’t from this rural area. They are dumped, then breed and raise entire litters of pups terrified of people. We have our hands full. But MARC has a great Mother and Puppy program that will take in any Mom and young litter of pups, so people are slowly learning not to dump them on the side of the road. I love the work we are doing and we will never stop helping the animals and people in this community. We are hoping our building for our Spay /Neuter clinic will actually be more like a community animal center. We want to have a food bank where we can offer food to low income families to help them keep and learn to care for their animals, spay and neuter them all, and teach their children grow up with higher standards for how animals should be treated.
If it isn’t obvious, these people have really good heads on their shoulders, big plans, and I trust them completely.
On a completely unrelated note, here is a picture of my sister wakeboarding on the river in Pittsburgh, and I just thought it was a super cool photo:
Time for some dinner. Searing a pork tenderloin, steaming some spinach, and making red beans and rice.
WereBear
Awesome stuff! Any lightening of misery in the world lifts us all.
SiubhanDuinne
John, it is a joy to know how Tunch’s legacy is helping countless animals and people. I live not too terribly far from MRion County, TN, and I hope the next time I’m up Chattanooga-way I can stop by and visit them and see first hand what they’re doing.
It’s hard to believe Tunch has only been gone nine days, and that all this has happened in barely more than a week.
And Boss? Tomorrow is his big day, yes?
Yatsuno
What that magnificent fat bastard has wrought.
SiubhanDuinne
@Yatsuno: I tear up every time I think of it. But in a good way.
Violet
What an amazing legacy for Tunch. Thanks for the update. Sounds like MARC is doing wonderful things.
raven
John, how did you get involved with these folks?
Omnes Omnibus
Just sent something today, so it will be going up. Not much, but up.
Elizabelle
What a good group of people.
The donors and MARC.
Constance
Sounds like a solid group building a solid operation.
And did someone mention we may get T-shirts or hoodies with Angel Tunch on them? That would sure help my Xmas buying.
Yatsuno
@Constance: Buying as soon as they become available. I believe Evelyn is working on the design as we type.
ranchandsyrup
lawd knows Cole loves a pedant, but since she’s not holding onto the rope and she’s right next to the boat, she’s wakesurfing or landlocking.
catpal
That is an awesome tribute to Tunch and Balloon Juice.
Someone sent this to me – I am a huge supporter of TNR programs and this one really needs a lot of help feral-cat epidemic
Forgottencats.org is trying to help the town – please click on the link to help if you can.
trollhattan
Wow, nearly sixteen large for Herr Floofy–a great legacy! Sounds like those folks have their paws full, so here’s hoping this helps them on their way.
Cheryl from Maryland
Awesome. Thanks for the update John. In an alternate universe, we had pork tenderloin seared, then baked in a cast iron skillet with garlic, then baked some more with sliced black plums. Horseradish sauce on the side. Easy and delicious.
Princess Leia
I love what they are doing and how they are taking such a holistic approach!
Mary G
See how much we care about you and Tunch! I am sure you still miss him like crazy. Good luck with Boss’s surgery tomorrow.
It’s terrible how these governments in red states are just refusing to take responsibility for anything. No animal control at all? It would be unacceptable here in California. I almost never see stray dogs or cats unless it’s someone’s pet that’s gotten out. Of course, coyotes take care of that a lot, too.
trollhattan
Since is also open thread, if I were to open a nightspot, I think Club Chronic Public Nuisance would be a great name.
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2013/07/gunshots-fired-outside-seattle-club-labeled-chronic-public-nuisance/
Pogonip
I’ll buy a Tunch hoodie sight unseen. I love hoodies (fear not for me, I’m a middle-aged white female, we are invisible to everybody) and I love Tunch. I know that sounds stupid, but the stories and videos made it clear he was a pussy cat of a cat (so to speak). I mourned for Tunch. I invoked St. Francis to find him a fat guy in heaven to keep him company. (My religion takes no official position on whether animals have souls, so such an invocation is not blasphemous.)
If it’s not too touchy a subject, may I ask what your sister decided to do with the dog involved? Poor critter has no idea it’s high prey drive makes it an iffy pet, and I’m sure whatever decision sis reached was not easy.
Re the phone phactory: my mom has had to go in the hospital for what may be a stroke. She’s senile so my dad has to be there to help her answer questions. My son has brain damage to verbal centers so he can’t deal with complex questions such as a repairman may ask. So I’ll be over there and I am not letting the poor guy leave till it’s all fixed. He’ll probably end up writing a horror movie about us: “Phone Service From Hell: Satan’s Phone Slaves.”
ConsistentLiberal
We love animals so much…they’re just like people!
Now i’m going to sit down and eat one.
This makes sense how? I expect some conservative logic now.
I’m not trying to pile on the traumatic events in your life, but maybe you could personally do some good? Are animals our friends or not? I’d never eat my grandmother, my dog, your cat, or a farmers pig. At what point do you think animals stop being our friends and start being our property?
elmo
SNARL: Spay Neuter Adopt Rescue Love. She’s not wrong to be leery of a “no-kill” shelter. Pretty quickly those can fill up with unadoptables, leaving them no room to save the hundreds of other animals who just need a chance.
I’ve actually, after 25 years in rescue and more than 200 fosters to my name, become a little jaded about no-kill. There are just *so many* out there who perish for want of an extra day, and we don’t have the resources to save them all. Better to put down an unadoptable animal and free up the space for one who can find a home, which then frees up the space again, and again, and again — you can save 30 dogs in the same space that an unadoptable might take up, over a three-month span.
But everyone’s different, and I don’t fault anyone for trying.
AHH onna Droid
What you’re up to John is awesome. Big wings for a big cat indeed–and surprisingly big hearts.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
Well, I know I’ll never convince you, but I’ll present an argument:
Cats and dogs have utility beyond the meat they could potentially provide — cats can provide pest control and dogs can help hunt other animals. Other animals, like cows and chickens, have little utility beyond the food products they provide. Since cats and dogs are more useful for their services than they are for their meat, there’s very little utility in eating them.
But it’s true that Americans are odd in that they’ve adopted as pets animals that are kept for their meat in other countries — rabbits are commonly eaten in Europe, and my boss told us about having guinea pig for dinner in Peru, which people kept in their backyards like chickens.
Pogonip
@ConsistentLiberal: It varies from country to country and religion to religion. A Hindu is horrified at how you treat cows. You. In turn, are probably horrified at how Hindus treat women. And so on around the globe.
Dave
So weird. That picture was taken at maybe a 5-minute swim from my office. (Not that you’d want to swim in the Mon.)
AHH onna Droid
@elmo: Too much pressure to create animal hoarding situations. Ironically when it all collapses even adoptable animals are so ill they end up put down.
But I differ from u a bit in that I think commercial pet markets-puppy mills or big box stores-are the real menace. Even when they are selling rescues they sell them to idiots who mistreat and abandon animals. Even bettas , which are vicious creatures, deserve better.
pseudonymous in nc
As a rule of thumb, rural America remains pretty crap about spay/neuter. Partly because dogs and cats are still seen as farm animals (in the sense of being around the farm, not raised for market).
So you have to respect what MARC is doing: it’s not just about saving animals, but changing attitudes, and that’s hard.
ConsistentLiberal
@Pogonip:
I doubt they’d be horrified…i figured it come though that i eat exactly zero species of animals. I treat all animals as I treat my pets. I would never eat them.
I am horrified how others treat women. And animals.
I’m just trying to understand how people are horrified of some cultures eating dogs, cats, horses, etc, but we have the “correct” list of “animals” and “un-animals”.
Goblue72
@Mnemosyne: we eat rabbits in this country too. Yum yum.
Other cultures eat dog. Sometimes cat.
As for your argument, Americans by and large do not own dogs to hunt or cats for ratting. If anything, they have less utility than pigs or cows do.
We keep them because they are fluffy and we have bred them over the centuries to be able to live indoors without (relatively speaking) leaving their scat & urine everywhere and their daily caloric intake is economically manageable. In short, they are cute, modest sized companion animals that respond to training and command (again, relatively speak).
Their utility – such as it is – is overwhelimgly about how they make humans FEEL.
Yatsuno
@ConsistentLiberal: Because they’re tasty. And the vast majority of animals raised primarily for flesh would literally die without humans to care for them.
@Goblue72: Rabbit is delicious. A friend raises them for meat and I need to get some from her.
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
All animals provide “utility” if you’d want to put it that way.
Your argument presupposes that chickens and cows exist at the level they’d exist in nature if we didn’t force them to breed. At the same time, we could have massive farms of cats and dogs and eat them instead – a billion dogs have no utility, just like a billion chickens have no utility – other than as food.
Maybe you should stop looking at other animals in terms of their “utility”?
And if you want to take it to extremes, comatose people have very little “utility”. Why not eat them too?
I used to eat animals by being in denial. I thought us liberals were supposed to ground our thoughts and beliefs in reality. Otherwise, aren’t we just conservatives?
Omnes Omnibus
@ConsistentLiberal:
Yatsuno
@Omnes Omnibus: YAY!!! WE HAZ VEGAN PURITY TROLL!!!
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
Uh, have you ever actually seen a cat? You think it would be easier to keep billions of them in captivity and breed them like we do chickens?
There’s a reason why the meat animals chosen for agriculture were chosen — they’re easy to catch and easy to breed.
My cats eye me in terms of my utility to them. They look to me to feed them and clean their litter boxes and provide a place to live. I’m under no illusions that they harbor a deep love for me and, if it became necessary to their survival, they would eat me without a qualm.
Animals eat other animals. Cats eat mice and birds, dogs eat cats, and on up the food chain. Why are you applying higher moral standards to yourself than you do to other animals?
ConsistentLiberal
@Yatsuno:
My point is they wouldn’t have been raised if people didn’t eat them. Even if the current batch was allowed to live out its normal life, they wouldn’t be forced to breed so that we always have the “problem” you describe.
Other countries have no problem finding the very dogs and cats everyone here is trying to save as “tasty.” Why is anyone here trying to save them, why not just let them all die? That have no “utility” and they’re not “tasty” so what good are they?
Is this not a horrific way for everyone to look at animals?
I have dogs, not cats. But i’m not going to say “well, let all the cats die because I don’t have them as pets” – and some people have pet cows, pet pigs, etc. I realized that to be consistent i’d have to treat all animals equally.
But that’s just me. It’s not illegal in this country to be hypocritical or inconsistent. Or we’d have to jail all the conservatives too.
Yatsuno
@Mnemosyne: In order to survive, humans must kill. It doesn’t matter if the living being is a plant, an animal, or a mushroom. We must end its existence in order to continue our own. Based on that fact, why should animals be excepted? Because they’re cute?
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
“Why are you applying higher moral standards to yourself than you do to other animals?”
Are you serious?
And i thought i was going to be the one accused of trolling here! I’m not falling for that one.
Lymie
@Pogonip:
Interesting how you have “othered” women into being cows. Thanks.
Omnes Omnibus
@ConsistentLiberal: A cat would eat you in a heartbeat. Sneaky, little, vicious bastards. A dog might eat you, but would probably feel bad about it.
ConsistentLiberal
@Yatsuno:
I knew i would come off as a troll, but it was a risk i was willing to take. I read this blog consistently, and the single thing that bothers me the most is the fact i see post after post about how wonderful all these snuggly animals are, followed immediately by a list of animals that have been killed for dinner. The hypocrisy has been astounding.
I am under no illusion that i’m going to change a single mind tonight, but i also know Cole was a conservative back in the day. I used to eat meat. It wasn’t until I finally decided to stop denying reality did I go from some meat eating know it all to some serious introspection about all of my thoughts and beliefs. And now i’m a liberal.
Some people beat me to it, and some people take longer, but i’m glad my friends are constantly challenging my beliefs. Otherwise, again, Cole and I would still be on the other side.
And if troll is the worst thing i’m called this week (being a atheist vegan!) it’s been a good week.
Keith
Uhhh…huh-huh-huh.
Omnes Omnibus
@ConsistentLiberal: Why is it hypocritical to eat some animals but not others? I think cat would be stringy. Not much meat on a gibbon. There are practical considerations.
Keith G
@ConsistentLiberal: I grew up on a small farm. Living within our fenced land were cats, dogs, horses and sheep.
Spend a couple of days cavorting with each of the above and most folks would understand why leg of lamb was on our table and not horse chops or filet of dog. YMMV.
It’s an imperfect world. Some things eat, some get et
I do think we eat too much meat and I am trying to cut down to less than 300 to 250 grams per day as a way station to be consistently under 200 p.d. The world would be a better place if all westerners tried the same.
But….prigs don’t convince people. If they did, we would all be evangelicals.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: Practical consideration #1: pigs taste good.
Gin & Tonic
@Dave: If you wouldn’t want to swim in it, why would you want to wakeboard in it? Honest question, since I’ve never actually been in Pittsburgh. I’ve seen people jet-skiing in the East River in NYC, and all I can think of is “ewww.” Are the rivers in Pittsburgh any cleaner?
Nerdlinger
@Gin & Tonic: Not trying to put fuel to the fire, but some people think dogs taste good as well.
Keith G
@Gin & Tonic: Funny that pigs feel the same about us. Good thing they don’t have grasping hands with opposable thumbs.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
So do you feed your dogs food with meat in it? Or do you force a vegan diet on them knowing that it’s not as healthy as the omnivorous diet they evolved to eat and that you’re probably going to shorten their lives thanks to your personal moral scruples?
I’m completely serious. Either humans are animals like all other animals, which means we eat other animals just like they do, or humans are better than other animals, which means you need to explain why it’s morally wrong for us to eat lesser beings.
Any argument that humans shouldn’t eat other animals because we’re better than them falls apart at its foundations.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne: I still won’t eat gibbon.
Gin & Tonic
@Nerdlinger: They’re mistaken.
Keith G
@Nerdlinger:
I guess those people eat chow.
Gin & Tonic
@Keith G: I vaguely remember some story from years ago, a serial killer somewhere in west Canuckistan (BC? Alberta?) who also had a pig farm and disposed of his victims’ bodies that way. So even though they didn’t have opposable thumbs, they had somebody with opposable thumbs do their hard work for them. Pretty clever of those pigs, if you ask me.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic: It was also a plot device in the Guy Ritchie flick, Snatch.
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Put it on yourself to convince us with a clear, rational, consistent thought about why eating animals is not inconsistent. Come up with a reason it’s not “immoral” in your opinion. What makes them different from humans that would make it ok to eat them? Specifics, please.
When you say “lesser beings” what do you mean, specifically?
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: While we have similar views here, be careful of that limb your are inching out on.
Keith G
@Omnes Omnibus: And on Deadwood – the best TV series of all time. IMHO.
Nerdlinger
@Mnemosyne: I’ll bite (hehe). For the record, I’m not a vegan, but I’m sympathetic to their arguments and I’m feeling particularly confrontational today.
It’s more a matter of whether you require meat, and a matter of whether you have access to perfectly viable alternatives. A dog has no choice in the matter; neither do certain indigenous tribesmen in Africa/South America.
We’re moral animals, which doesn’t mean that we’re better or worse tha n other animals. You can’t justify eating meat by pointing to other animals; that’s a naturalistic fallacy. The moral thrust against eating meat is the same as that against any cruel action. You’re causing unnecessary suffering.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus: Robert Pickton, of Port Coquitlam, BC.
Omnes Omnibus
@Nerdlinger: Meh. I like lamb chops. With new potatoes. And a nice Bordeaux.
Nerdlinger
@Keith G: I’m Korean, fwiw. I once ate a live octopus once… I still have nightmares about that.
Constance
@Yatsuno:
Oh, good news. I too shall start buying as soon as available.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
I have stated my reasons multiple times, but you don’t seem to be paying attention:
Most animals eat other animals. Humans are animals. Therefore, humans eat other animals. Is it immoral for a tiger to eat a human?
There is nothing that makes other animals different from humans. That’s why it’s okay to eat them — because we are all animals, and animals eat other animals.
Humans evolved to eat a varied diet that includes meat, like other omnivorous animals. You can argue that the way we produce meat is immoral, but you have no moral argument that humans eating their fellow animals is inherently immoral any more than it’s inherently immoral for a bear to eat a salmon or a cat to eat a mouse.
Nerdlinger
@Keith G: I’m Korean, fwiw. I once ate a live octopus… I still have nightmares about that.
ConsistentLiberal
It took all of 2 minutes to turn this into a conservative blog.
“…imperfect world…” Sounds like a justification for ending any liberal policy. Why give food stamps or welfare or equal rights for women? “Imperfect world…” and all that.
Can anyone give a justification for eating animals while not sounding like a conservative? I was open enough to become a vegan, I’d have no problem going back if I was wrong. All I’ve heard is “inferior beings” (I guess black people should have been on the menu back in the south, amirite?) and “tasty” (because if it tastes good to you than it necessarily can’t be wrong!).
We haven’t even gotten into global warming (we still believe that to be true, right?) and the torture most animals go through for your tasty delights.
PS. One of the longest living dogs, Bramble, the 27 year old collie, ate a vegan diet. Does anyone have any evidence here or have we gone full right-wing?
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
So there is nothing wrong with eating dead humans? How about comatose humans? How about humans that are of lower intelligence than you? All seem to be “inferior beings.” And “animals eat animals”, right? What about small children that can be overpowered?
Is it wrong to eat humans in you estimation? Why or why not?
Keith
@Keith G: Amen to Deadwood! I know several people who are going crazy over GoT (and somewhat for True Blood), but I keep telling them to take the time to go to HBO Go and watch several hours of Deadwood. So far, I’ve had one taker, and that person has not been disappointed. It’s more intimate than GoT, but you have a better chance to know the characters.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
I’m guessing our similar views are that we understand why people have moral qualms about factory farming and the other cruel ways we currently “produce” the meat that we eat, but don’t feel that it’s inherently immoral for humans to eat meat.
Keith G
@ConsistentLiberal: CLib, I think strong cases can be made about the environmental, economic, biological and humane treatment issues raised by the way advanced societies consume meat. These arguments can be expressed in terms of enlightened self and community interest ideals.
Pedantic cross examinations rarely change opinions in any topic, so I do not get what your goal is here. You are taking an important issue and making a hash of it.
Thanks a lot.
Omnes Omnibus
@ConsistentLiberal: Actually, what you heard was that we are omnivorous animals.
Gin & Tonic
@ConsistentLiberal:
So here we are then. Shorter you: I’m right and you omnivores are wrong. Does moral superiority taste better than bacon?
Nerdlinger
@Omnes Omnibus: Yeah. My stomach just refuses to cooperate with my brain, but such is life.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gin & Tonic:
Of course not.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
You do realize that most omnivorous and carnivorous animals don’t eat members of their own species, right? Well, except for primates — chimpanzees are pretty notorious for attacking “strangers” to their tribe and eating them. Hmm, what species do we share 98 percent of our DNA with …
There was a very interesting episode of “Secrets of the Dead” that talked about evidence of routine, food-based cannibalism found in Arizona. They make an interesting point towards the beginning of the show that such evidence has been found in Europe and other countries as well, but the archeologists who found the evidence often covered it up.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
Try going out into the woods and convincing a bear that it shouldn’t eat you because it’s morally wrong for animals to eat each other.
Omnes Omnibus
@Nerdlinger: There are a lot of issues about which one can get worked up. There are also a lot of things about which one can be outraged. I pick and choose mine lest I burn out. This is one I choose not to get worked up over.
ConsistentLiberal
And for the record, my point is that humans have the ability to reason at a higher level than all other animals, and can realize that our eating other animals is torture – period. You cannot eat a live animal without causing it pain for your own happiness, period. You cannot eat a live animal without causing it pain and you cannot kill an animal without causing it pain. And this isn’t getting into how animals are treated while they are alive, again, just for your pleasure. And when i realize that, if my pleasure allows me to justify my causing pain to lesser beings, where does it end? Comatose people? People with down’s syndrome? Dumb slaves? Why not? Come up with an actual reason. I guarantee there are cows that are more intelligent than some currently living humans. Is it not immoral to cause them pain?
Hey, if your diet consists of roadkill and corpses, knock yourself out.
But stop deluding yourself into thinking what you’re doing isn’t immoral, under ANY framework you decide.
It never ceases to amaze me the self-justification people will come up with to do whatever they’ve already decided they want to do. And there is nothing “liberal” or “progressive” about that. You’ve decided on a course of action, and now like a conservative, you must come up with a justification.
Hey, if you can sleep at night. I guess we can stop asking how Bush and the others do…
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
So if it happens in nature, humans should be fine with it?
Is this a liberal argument now?
ConsistentLiberal
Please, everyone go back and read everything above.
Replace “black people” for “animals” and you have a conservative blog.
Can’t we be better than this? Why do people profess to be liberal here?
Omnes Omnibus
@ConsistentLiberal: Do you eat plants? Have you killed a mosquito? How dare you?
machine
MARC link clicked. Wealth distribution effected. Bourbon reward.
Nerdlinger
@ConsistentLiberal: You’re not doing anything to disprove the annoying vegan hypothesis.
Yatsuno
@ConsistentLiberal: Maybe you’ll just have to live in your moral superiority and let us less evolved beings go to our destruction in peace. Because you’re not exactly winning over hearts and minds here.
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m almost smelling sockpuppet…
ConsistentLiberal
@Keith G:
I was just pointing out the obvious hypocrisy being shown here by pretending to care for animals (no one here does, some are just useful as cuddly toys) and talking about what animal pain was inflicted on for your satisfaction for dinner.
I said I don’t expect to change any minds today. I know growth and reasoning takes time. Just because people here are supposedly open minded and “liberal” doesn’t mean they don’t think in the same way as every other reactionary conservative out there.
You people want to make fun of new-dems for not being liberal, but instead reactionary, etc.
Pot, kettle.
Gin & Tonic
@Yatsuno: Imagine, people thinking of vegans as humorless moral scolds.
ConsistentLiberal
@Nerdlinger:
Now you understand how conservatives look at you.
Is our liberals learning?
ConsistentLiberal
@Yatsuno:
Sockpuppet?
Like i said, i read this blog daily, and have finally had my fill of animal posts followed IN THE SAME POST animal dinner.
I guess i was still hoping there was some chance that maybe some of you have never realized what you’re doing, and now that it’s been brought to your attention, you’ll stop.
It’s called learning. And yes, even us liberals can do it. We’re obviously not perfect.
But now i’m wondering if we’re all just conservatives who have had to confront reality on a few issues, but not all of them yet… I guess the animals will never fight back.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: In relation to nothing special…I don’t give f*ck all about moral; arguments. I am strongly in the Rationalist camp.
The Family Hominidae are fruit, veg and insect eaters by natural inclination. Our jaws and digestive tract show that these animals were not designed (evolved) to ingest animal flesh as a primary or secondary source of nutrition. You are right that chimps are mostly herbivorous, but will prey on other arboreal mammals.
Native American cannibalism seems to be symbolic and ritualistic where in some pieces of flesh are consumed in a ceremony often by members of a warrior cult.
All this is a long way to go to say humans eat meat because we like to. It’s yummy!! It was a hugely important part of our diet as we made the transition from just another animal to a dominant species. Only in the last one hundred years or so has the utility of eating meat begun to change for humans.
And we need to change or consumption.
Nerdlinger
@ConsistentLiberal:
Do I really give a damn? Condescension gets you nowhere.
Keith G
@Yatsuno:
Or this cat is paid by Hormel to make sure vegan activists are perceived as laughable.
MattR
@ConsistentLiberal:
Comparing black people to animals is what conservative congressmen do.
ConsistentLiberal
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sorry, you can’t troll me. Plants are not animals. Do you need to know the difference?
I don’t go out killing mosquitoes (or any animal) for my pleasure. You see, when a human is attacking you and you kill the human, there isn’t anything immoral or wrong about it. I hope you can see the difference here.
We have arrived at the point that eating animals isn’t necessary for our survival. Now it’s just a luxury. Maybe we shouldn’t do it?
ConsistentLiberal
@MattR:
Now you see why this is a conservative blog. Women are cows. See: above, comment.
ConsistentLiberal
@Nerdlinger:
Oh, I thought that was your point. Was I supposed to care? I assumed if you thought I did, it was more revealing about yourself.
Omnes Omnibus
@ConsistentLiberal: Why are plants, being living things, less than animals?
Keith G
@ConsistentLiberal:
Okay Sparky, now you are on the doorstep of something rational.
If “eating animals isn’t necessary for our survival” can be proven (I think it can), and if you can manage to speak coherently about the environmental, economic, biological problems caused by western meat consumption, you probably can get folks to rethink their meat consumption habits.
But I am not even sure that this is your goal.
ConsistentLiberal
@Keith G:
I am actually partly in the rationalist camp myself – what convinced me, more than eating animals was wrong, was the fact its one of the largest contributors to global warming, if not the biggest.
I just got tired of reading all the animal love/dinner posts. Like i said, the hypocrisy seemed so apparent to me that I could no longer sit by as the moderate. I had to say something, give all the supposed liberals here something to ponder.
But one more point: why don’t we just bomb every small country until we’ve reduced carbon consumption to the point where it is sustainable? We’ll save more people in the long run that we’ll kill in the short run. If we’re straight up utilitarians here (we still are, right?) then this seems to be the easiest solution to global warming and the final extinction of our species, along with millions of other species.
Or are you not a “rationalist” after all? Maybe some things really are immoral?
ConsistentLiberal
PS. I thought “western animal consumption is unsustainable” was common knowledge to all liberals. It just doesn’t seem to be stopping any of you.
Omnes Omnibus
@ConsistentLiberal: Well, just continue to set a fine example for us and maybe, someday, eventually, we will be worthy of the leadership you are showing. Until then, be strong.
Mnemosyne
Sorry, had to step away to cook dinner.
@MattR:
Yep. ConsistentLiberal keeps bouncing back and forth between arguing that we’re better than other animals (because we can reason) but we’re the same as other animals (because people=chickens) without realizing s/he’s changing arguments within the same sentence.
Try being, yanno, consistent, ConsistentLiberal. Are humans the equals of other animals, or better than other animals? You’re trying to argue simultaneously that humans and chickens have equal value but humans are better because they’re smarter than chickens. Do you really see no inconsistency there?
I guess all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others, yes?
ETA: Also, by your logic, if humans are the moral equals of animals, aren’t you the moral equivalent of a Southern slaveholder by keeping dogs as pets? Shouldn’t you set them free to live their own lives rather than keeping them in captivity for your own entertainment?
Omnes Omnibus
@Mnemosyne:
Now where have I heard that before?
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
You realize this is a completely different argument than the one you started off with, right? The unsustainability of modern animal husbandry and consumption has absolutely nothing to do with the inherent morality of humans eating animals.
Keith G
@ConsistentLiberal:
Jesus Christ, are you twelve?
Eating meat is a ritualized community behavior. It’s psychological imprint is rooted deep in our (and others) culture. Your are not going to change minds with a couple of posters and a sit in.
Alcohol consumption is a bit similar in that the social rituals reinforce behavior that on their surface would otherwise be seen as stupid.
So yes, liberals, being human, are fallible and don’t always act in accordance to what some would define as the greater good. The question becomes, what is the best way to change that.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: Getting away from the moral argument, a question to those who may have done more thinking about this. I live in a relatively rural area, and within a 10-15 mile radius I have small family-farm-type producers of beef, pork, lamb and chicken. I’m also very close to the ocean, so have an ample supply of shellfish and finfish from small producers. I have the wherewithal to source most of my animal-protein consumption from these people, and I do, because a) it tastes better than frozen or factory-farmed stuff and b) I like the idea of supporting small producers, for economic reasons. I’m assuming this is more “sustainable” than Cargill/Hormel-style production, but I could be deluding myself.
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Let me help you.
We are all equal.
Just because some dumb asshole decides to kill a black kid or a dog decides to kill a cat, doesn’t mean we aren’t equal. The difference is, we have the capacity to realize this and decide not to kill.
Again, what makes you think it’s moral to kill “lesser beings” when you have the capacity to know better? Can we eat comatose people?
I guess you’re for capital punishment of inner-city criminals? Another consistent liberal I see. Does it make me inconsistent thinking you can kill someone literally try to kill you? Do you not see the difference? I’m not saying all killing is immoral. I’m saying the killing of animals for your pleasure.
Everyone here ok with Michale Vick? I guess he’s the new liberal hero! What was wrong with what he did in your world?
I just can’t come up with a world that i can look down on michael vick but not animal eaters like yourself.
ConsistentLiberal
@Gin & Tonic:
All you’re doing is shifting the consumption of the “other” animals to other people. You’ve accomplished nothing…except deluding yourself. All animals are the same, no matter how they were tortured before you ate them. For a long time on a factory farm or a short time at the local one. Both are killed for your pleasure, both contribute equally to global warming for your pleasure.
I think this is the “i treated my slaves well” line of arguments.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: What did you have for dinner?
Yatsuno
@ConsistentLiberal:
LOLWUT?? Okay, now I KNOW you’re not serious. Sit down before you hurt yourself.
ConsistentLiberal
@Keith G:
No, I am not 12.
I understand that many ritualized behaviors have come and gone. C’mon, this is pretty weak sauce. You can’t think of any examples. Is this really your argument or are you just flailing about now?
Why can’t i own slaves? Especially if I think that they are “lesser beings”? As long as I don’t think it’s immoral?
Exactly how many posters and sit-ins did it take to eliminate slavery? Jim crow?
As a liberal, i assume the best way to change it is to start with myself, cause my posters and sit-ins wouldn’t make much sense if i was eating a bucket of chicken at the same time.
And then i’d try to convince some supposedly open minded liberals of the error of their way, before i even attempted to fight the conservatives.
Hey, my friend convinced me after i ate meat for 30 years. I finally stopped ignoring the fact that she was, well, right, and stopped deluding myself with all my silly irrational justifications for my poor behavior.
Gin & Tonic
@ConsistentLiberal: Except they’re not “tortured” at the local farms, which I can visit and see for myself. They are killed, yes, but they are not mistreated. And they’re not trucked hundreds or thousands of miles either before or after they are slaughtered. So arguing that consumption of that pig is contributing to global climate change in the same way that a Hormel pig from Iowa is, is demonstrably false.
But actually I was seeking information from those less doctrinaire than you, thanks.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
So killing a black kid is exactly like killing a cat?
And you wonder why you’re not winning friends around here.
Not at all. Because I think it’s wrong for human beings to kill other human beings, by simple virtue of being human.
I do not think that killing a chicken is the same as killing a human, any more than I think that aborting an embryo is the same as killing a toddler. I prize human lives over animal lives. I guess that makes me a moral monster.
Interesting that you choose that word over “survival.” Let’s say you know someone with anemia. Without meat — actual red meat — she will endanger her own health and possibly die. But in your world, it’s better that she die, because her life is equal with that of a cow, which means that it’s immoral for her to eat beef to sustain her own life.
ConsistentLiberal
@Yatsuno:
Ok, more specifically, I can’t come up with a reason as to why they’re more different than comatose humans. Any justification for eating an animal is a justification for eating at least one human out there.
So unless you’re arguing that it’s ok to eat humans…
I’ve tried justifying it in my mind a million different ways, but they just never work out.
Please try. Let me know when you find one. Please articulate it for the group.
Keith G
@ConsistentLiberal:
Just as I was getting ready to turn out the lights…sigh
That is the most specious and infantile form of argumentation yet. It’s empty, without substance. Why don’t you just call meat eaters Nazi Gestapo and get it over with? No one should engage with such vapid and ungrounded verbosity.
Ring me if you ever stumble across a rational argument to employ.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
Grilled vegetables over Israeli couscous. Ironically, the only thing that kept it from being vegan is that I didn’t have any vegetable broth to cook the couscous, so I used chicken broth instead.
It was pretty tasty, but some of the eggplant was underdone and a little bitter, like our new friend here.
ConsistentLiberal
@Gin & Tonic:
No, because the transportation is a negligible part of the production of carbon, it is the growth of the animal for your consumption. Add in the fact you can truck thousands of pounds of meat at a time whereas you’re all making individual trips to farms…suddenly the odds may have turned against you.
Eating vegan for one day a week produces less carbon than eating “local” for the ENTIRE week.
I’ve actually carefully researched all of this because i let facts guide my life…but…whatever i guess. We each have to justify our behavior so we don’t feel shitty about ourselves i imagine.
I didn’t know killing animals was painless. Do you do it yourself? Cause last i checked….
ConsistentLiberal
@Keith G:
Hey, i tried rational argument, it doesn’t seem to work here.
Now i’m grasping for feelings. I’m hoping some of you have a heart.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
Only if you give the lives of humans and animals equal moral weight and decide that it’s (for example) better for human diabetics to die a slow death than allow them to use insulin that was derived from pigs, because pigs have an equal right to life.
Funny, Mary Beth Sweetland, the former VP at PETA who’s an insulin-dependent diabetic, preaches against other diabetics, but keeps using insulin herself because her life is more important than theirs … and more important than that a bunch of pigs, apparently.
ETA: Corrected Sweetland’s title.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
When was that, again? So far all I’ve heard are emotional appeals about how pigs and humans are the same and anyone who keeps a pet is the same as Michael Vick.
You still haven’t explained why you’re keeping your dog(s) in slavery, by the way.
Yatsuno
@Mnemosyne:
I always salt Turkish eggplants if I’m not peeling them. And I usually have a hard time justifying peeling anything.
Mnemosyne
@Yatsuno:
It was a Japanese eggplant, which the intertubes told me didn’t need to be salted even when unpeeled. Feh.
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Ok, you’re off your rocker here. Anemia? Let’s just pretend you can’t find iron in vegetables – at a higher level per calorie than many meats. Are you going to tell me about protein next.
Again, i’ve actually researched this. I’m just encouraging others to do the same instead of reflexively justifying their behavior.
You know the treatment for anemia is an iron supplement, not eating yourself sick on red meat?
Talk about hyperbole – you’ll die without red meat? Again, when did all the conservatives get here?
Please don’t tell me you tell others you’re a liberal. Please.
Pretend someone arbitrarily “prizes” white people over black people. Does that make it moral to kill and eat black people for them?
I’m asking you to come up with an argument that is rational. You seem incapable of doing so. Explain to me exactly why humans are “better” than animals. Specifically.
PS.
Iron —– (mg/100 calories)
————————-
Spinach, cooked —– 15.5
Collard greens, cooked —– 4.5
Lentils, cooked —– 2.9
Broccoli, cooked —– 1.9
Chickpeas, cooked —– 1.8
Sirloin steak, choice, broiled —– 0.9
Hamburger, lean, broiled —– 0.8
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Because my domesticated dog would die if left in the wild. So i’m helping it live out its life as pleasurably as possible.
Are you doing the same for the chickens and pigs and cows that end up on your plate?
Now liberals don’t think we should adopt pets? I guess we should eat them?
Yatsuno
@Mnemosyne: I didn’t think they ran to bitter. Strange. Could have been just a weird mutant.
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Ok, let’s just ignore the FACT that the incidence of diabetes in vegans is lower than any other diet type, or the fact that switching to a vegan diet for many people with diabetes is enough to control their diabetes…
…and the fact that most insulin is grown in laboratories, synthetically, and doesn’t derive from animals….
So with that all ignored….i never said that i have a problem with using animals for our SURVIVAL as opposed to our PLEASURE. I guess you also don’t understand the difference between harming another human in self-defense and harming another human for shits and giggles?
We are at the point that we do not need to eat animals for our pleasure. If a bear attacks you, YES, KILL IT. But don’t pretend cows and pigs and chickens being grown on farms are “attacking” us or are “necessary” for our survival.
Quick, someone tell me that there is leather in my shoes (nope) or that I drive and hit animals accidently sometimes and I could walk instead. You see, there are better arguments than you people are making. This is pretty sad for supposedly intelligent liberals.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
Psst. Popeye was wrong. Since you’ve done vast research on this, can you explain what the absorption percentages are of heme vs. non-heme iron and why we’re supposed to ignore those differences?
You may want to talk to an actual doctor about that rather than relying on internet kooks. The treatment is both/and, not either/or. You’re supposed to increase your meat consumption and take an iron supplement, because iron alone won’t do it.
Your claim is that no one needs meat. Some people do. So, yes, you have made your decision and declared that it’s better for those people to die than for a cow to die, because the lives of cows and humans have equal weight.
Again, you have this strange idea that I agree with you that humans and animals are moral equals. I don’t. Therefore, in my view it’s wrong to kill and eat black people because they’re people, not because it’s wrong to eat any animal, even humans.
Ironically, for the same reasons you claimed that humans are no better than animals: because we have thought and rationality. I think we have a moral responsibility to not treat animals badly, but that does not change our essential animal nature, and animals eat other animals.
Let’s say your dog gets sick and the vet tells you that it has cancer. I assume that you then allow the dog to suffer until it dies naturally, right? Otherwise, it would be the same as if you smothered your dying grandmother in the hospital to end her suffering.
Yatsuno
@Mnemosyne: Heh. I can tell when you’re just bored.
BethanyAnne
Consistent? Reason? Humans? roflmao Ain’t no one consistent, and humans aren’t rational, we’re rationalizing.
Drc
How about selling Tunch t-shirts to raise even more $$$?
Gin & Tonic
@ConsistentLiberal:
The human is the only animal that can forgo eating something that is nutritious and edible and justify that on moral grounds.
Mnemosyne
@ConsistentLiberal:
Type 1 or Type 2 diabetes? I think you need to read those reams of studies you claim to have read a little more closely. (Hint: Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes are not the same thing, require different treatments, and no one can “cure” Type 1 diabetes through diet.)
Not anymore, but it did, and it still uses some animal products today, which is why PETA and other animal rights organizations rail against it.
Fascinating. So, let me present an interesting fact to you: you cannot feed a vegan diet to a human infant, or you will kill it. Human infants require animal proteins to develop and grow, whether that animal protein comes from its mother’s breast milk or from infant formula, which must be made with animal protein (usually cow’s milk).
So there’s another case where you will cause a human being to die if you insist that everyone follow a vegan diet. Is that survival, or mere pleasure?
Who’s “we”? Upper class, first-world people, sure. But, really, no one living in rural China needs the extra nutrition that meat brings? In sub-Saharan Africa? In the Arctic Circle?
The only source of Vitamin C the Inuit people have is from animal sources. But, hey, nobody needs to eat animal products for survival, so they must be chewing on whale blubber for fun.
And I’m sorry I couldn’t include more links, but there’s a limit of three per post. Everything I’ve said here is easily Googleable. Inform yourself and step off your upper class, first world high horse.
Mnemosyne
@Yatsuno:
Pretty much. But it does kind of annoy me when people make half-baked proclamations like “vegans have less diabetes!” without realizing there are multiple kinds of diabetes, and a vegan diet isn’t going to do jack shit to keep a Type 1 diabetic from needing insulin.
Nerdlinger
@Mnemosyne:
You were rolling until this. Textbook definition of the naturalistic fallacy. You can’t ascribe normative values from descriptive ones.
Mnemosyne
@Nerdlinger:
Actually, I think it’s the “appeal to nature” fallacy, which is slightly different.
ETA: And, I admit, I like to use that fallacy on vegans because they tend to love to use it from their end to claim all kinds of stuff is inherently good for you because it’s “natural.”
Mnemosyne
Okay, I have stuff I need to get done before bedtime, so here’s the Shorter Me for people who like to scroll to the end of the thread:
I do not think that humans and animals are morally equivalent. I can buy some of the environmental arguments in favor of veganism and against factory farming of animals, but I do not think it’s inherently morally wrong to drink milk or eat meat or other animal products.
The end, and good night.
Nerdlinger
@Mnemosyne: No, it’s the naturalistic fallacy, where you derive ought from is. We’re not ascribing value here, or at least, I didn’t get that from your sentence.
Nerdlinger
@Mnemosyne: Good night, and sweet dreams!
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Ok, so we’re all conceding that we may in the past had a reason to eat animals or use their insulin, but AGAIN, this isn’t the case anymore, and now we just do it for our pleasure.
Wasn’t that my point? It isn’t about survival anymore – especially in the first world? I don’t imagine there are too many “sub-saharan africans” arguing with me on this blog, but i’d be happy to look at the google analytics to be sure.
And if you want to talk about the rest of the world, if we weren’t feeding all of our calories to animals, we would instead have more calories to go around, the price of those calories would be lower, and more people around the world could be fed a diet that would include enough vitamins and minerals to live. So, FACTUALLY SPEAKING, a vegan diet in the first world does more for people in the third world than a non-vegan diet.
Everything i said about diabetes is 100% correct, and no one has disputed that. I never made any claims about type 1 diabetes vs. type 2. And again, no one has disputed that there is lower incidence of diabetes in vegans. About type 1 diabetes in children: “On the contrary, type 1 diabetes incidence was positively correlated with average daily per capita energy intake of food items of animal origin and inversely correlated with intake of food items of vegetal origin.” You have google, right?
Find a SINGLE STUDY that says diabetes of any type has a higher incidence in people who are vegan. I’ll be right here.
So again, you can go with SCIENCE which is what i thought us liberals did, or you can go with your gut.
I thought this was a liberal blog, but i guess it’s just a bunch of faux-conservatives. At least the other ones are consistent in their obstinance.
No one is saying that babies shouldn’t drink their mothers milk – that is pretty obvious, and i’m not sure anyone would argue against it for any reason. That isn’t part of veganism. But don’t you find it curious that we are the only species that drinks other species breast milk, and are the only species which drink any milk as adults? This ever occur to you?
I love how people are bringing up anemia – like this is the scourage of america killing all the people! And what is the answer? To feed people a diet filled with the items that are ACTUALLY killing the majority of americans. Quick, did 120X as many people die from anemia as from heart disease, or was it the other way around? Facts, there’s just so many of them!
And if you were correct in the lack of iron for vegans, wouldn’t the incidence of iron deficiency be higher? Oh, it’s not, and that’s a fact? Gee, i guess that one is bullshit too.
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with this site? I literally thought it was a liberal site, and all i’ve encountered is close-minded conservatives who distort and outright lie. You people should be ashamed of yourselves.
And PLEASE stop telling people you’re liberal, because you’re giving actual liberals a bad name. Tell them you’re centrist democrats.
So any time anyone wants to step of their self-masturbatory first world high horse and actually make a difference for the third world, just let me know. I have a few recipes here that will make a difference, and taste good too.
Or keep up with the hollow self-justifications for your behavior. Like you and all the other conservatives have realized, it ain’t illegal. Free country and all that.
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Comatose people do not have thoughts or rationality. Babies too. Can we eat them?
Try again.
ConsistentLiberal
@BethanyAnne:
Finally someone speaks the truth.
ConsistentLiberal
@Mnemosyne:
Last comment:
Yes, I would put my grandmother and my dog down. Plenty of people make the choice to “pull the plug” to alleviate suffering.
Are you a conservative on this issue too?
Do you not see that this isn’t happening for MY pleasure? I’m not killing grandma, or eating her dog or her cow, for MY PLEASURE.
Do you not realize that motive plays a part in our lives? I can’t dumb this down any further for you than i already have: killing people/animals isn’t always wrong – for instance, if they’re trying to kill you.
Do you not understand the difference?
Katherine
@Pogonip: I am interested too in Kiwi the pit bull your sister rescued / I asked in an earlier thread with no answer / maybe too soon to ask