The Invisible Hand’s Trigger Finger

Slate’s Will Saletan takes a break from concern trolling reproductive rights to declare that everyone who is upset about the outcome of the Zimmerman trial has it all wrong: Race, guns and Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law weren’t significant factors in the outcome after all.

According to Saletan, the real problem was that George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin assumed the worst about each other and overreacted, and people who are all pissed off about the verdict are doing the same thing: making false assumptions and overreacting.

Let’s unpack the three supposed non-factors: race, guns and SYG. Saletan links to articles alleging that Zimmerman profiled Martin based solely on his clothing, but even if you confer magickal colorblindness on Zimmerman himself (and I don’t), how do you explain this?


And how do you wave away a case like Trevor Dooley’s — a mirror image of the Zimmerman case in many instances, except that it was Dooley, an older black man, who was the armed neighborhood busybody confronting unarmed people while carrying a gun. In the Dooley case, the unarmed man who was shot and killed was white. Dooley was convicted of manslaughter after less than two hours of deliberation.

In his zeal to insist that everyone who is critical of the Zimmerman trial outcome take context into account and see the larger picture, Saletan seems to assume that since Zimmerman was never captured on tape using the n-word, race isn’t a factor in this case at all, and the societal context and the outcomes of similar cases in the justice system don’t matter.

It does matter, and the people who are pissed off about it aren’t focusing exclusively on whether or not Zimmerman is a racist douche. Rather they’re noting the larger implications of the fact that a grown man who pursued an unarmed teen who was minding his own business and shot him in the heart has apparently not broken any Florida laws.

Saletan also waves away the role the gun played in the stalking and killing of Trayvon Martin, admonishing us not to focus on “our pet issues.” But it was the gun that emboldened Zimmerman (and Dooley too in the case above) and turned what might have been a non-event at best or scuffle at worst into a homicide. Why the hell should that be ignored?

The same goes for “Stand Your Ground,” which Saletan falsely says wasn’t invoked in the case. The juror instructions included this:

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

The jury instructions in Florida pre-SYG did not contain that clause, and there is no doubt that the inclusion of the SYG principle affected the outcome of the Zimmerman trial. The juror who appeared on Anderson Cooper’s show last night specifically mentioned SYG twice and alluded to its role in finding Zimmerman not guilty:

Juror B37 mentioned Stand Your Ground a second time in saying that the jury ultimately made its not-guilty verdict Saturday night based on the evidence and “because of the heat of the moment and the Stand Your Ground.”

A Texas A&M researcher found that states that passed SYG laws experienced a 7% to 9% increase in homicides. This follows free market principles since the cost of killing to the shooter has dropped in SYG’s wake. It turns out the Invisible Hand has a trigger finger.

Of course, the NRA disputes these figures (including that blood-soaked bat Marion Hammer, who spearheaded the drive to enact SYG in Florida), but they’re today’s Big Tobacco lobbyists, shilling for manufacturers who sell products that kill when used as designed.

Saletan wants us to believe that it’s just oh so complicated, and if you think the Zimmerman trial reveals anything systemic that’s wrong with our justice system, you’re overreacting. But there are things we do know. There are staggering inequalities in how the law is applied, and relieving a heavily armed populace of the duty to act responsibly to avoid and deescalate altercations means more people die and no one is held accountable. That’s worth getting a little worked up about.

262 replies
  1. 1
    Bobby Thomson says:

    I don’t think anyone should be taking counsel on the Zimmerman trial from an avowed racist.

  2. 2
    Person of Choler says:

    The Trayvon Martin shooting was beyond a doubt motivated by hate.

    Zimmerman hated having his brains bashed out on a concrete sidewalk.

  3. 3
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Not surprised at Saletan’s analysis. I’m sure for many White people, this case is not about race. Oh no! Could never be about race. Although everyone knows that had the races been reversed, the verdict would have been different. The Dooley case is just one indication of that.

  4. 4
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Person of Choler: And what evidence is there that his brains were being bashed out on the concrete sidewalk? Apart from superficial scrapes on the back of his head, what else? Where are the pictures of his blood on the sidewalk or on Trayvon? The video of him in the police station shows no evidence of a bloodied head/torso. Plus, he’s walking around unaided at the police station.

    Please! Zimmerman is a cold blooded murderer. His brother said he’ll have to look over his shoulders for the rest of his life. I sure hope so.

  5. 5

    Good Lord, this is seriously depressing.

    Any excuse we can think of so as to not address the issue of race and racism and how a black teen walking alone in the rain instantly became a ‘fucking punk’ and an ‘asshole’ to a guy with a gun, instead of a human being. And how many other people would look at the same black kid walking through their neighborhood and think the same damn thing.

    I know we all like to pretend racism is over, but seriously, the willful blindness involved in making up these excuses is staggering to this white guy.

  6. 6
    PeakVT says:

    The same goes for “Stand Your Ground,” which Saletan falsely says wasn’t invoked in the case.

    The defense didn’t invoke it in the trial, but it was clearly a factor in the police response in the immediate aftermath of the killing.

  7. 7
    eric says:

    for some white folks, the incident may have started because of race when Zimmerman saw a suspicious black youth but the shooting was not about race because Zimmerman feared for his life. In many ways this is the way certain whites see the history of race in America. Sure black people were slaves because they were an inferior people, but it stopped being about race when they were freed. In other words, we will divorce the reasonable and foreseeable consequences of racism from the racism itself to deem it free and clear of animus. Thus, Martin’s blackness had nothing to do with his death just as the racism of slavery had nothing to do with the poverty of the black community following the Civil War and into the present.

  8. 8
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    The constant apologias coming to prove that Martin was at fault for all of this and racisms is truly and well and totally dead except for that horrific Reverse Racism that exists and permeates now is….

    Guh. I want to say that we’ve totally backslid as a country as far as race but things like this remind me that this is same as it ever was, except now there’s no more shame to being outright racist, because you can accuse everyone else of Reverse Racism and not only be taken seriously but treated as a fucking goddamned martyr.

    I just….goddammit. I just feel so goddamned helpless.

  9. 9
    amk says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Hey, it has such an original name.

    @Person of Choler: welcome troll.

  10. 10
    jurassicpork says:

    Well, well, well, guess who lost their literary agent after less than a day?

    And, no, you’re wrong: Stand Your Ground was NOT invoked. It was purely a self-defense trial.

  11. 11
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    Ta-Nehisi Coates has written a very good piece on this case.

    A quote:

    The injustice inherent in the killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman was not authored by a jury given a weak case. The jury’s performance may be the least disturbing aspect of this entire affair. The injustice was authored by a country which has taken as its policy, for the lionshare of its history, to erect a pariah class. The killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman is not an error in programming. It is the correct result of forces we set in motion years ago and have done very little to arrest.

    The whole thing is well worth reading.

  12. 12
    furlyfly says:

    Surprised ball juicer mistermix didn’t pounce on this story out of his constant desperation to stir up some white rage.

  13. 13
    Diana says:

    A Stand Your Ground instruction was included as part of the jury instructions, however.

    However, one group of people I haven’t seen blamed yet are the groups generally lumped under the aegis of “civil rights establishment.” Did the NAACP marshall opposition to the Stand Your Ground initiatives when these laws were proposed and passed? If not, why not?

  14. 14
    beth says:

    @Person of Choler: My daughter reminded me about a cop who came to speak to her girl scout troop about 5 years ago. She still remembers him telling them how they should fight with every ounce of strength they had not to be taken since once they get you in a car, you’re pretty much dead. He told them to punch, kick, bite and even gouge out the guy’s eyeballs in order to get away. He said that if you the guy is close enough for you to see, you should call 911 but don’t expect they’ll get there in time to help you. That’s stuck with her all these years. It’s what kids learn these days, from elementary school on. I tend to believe Trayvon was scared of the creepy guy following him in an SUV and was trying to avoid being abducted or harmed. He had no reason to think otherwise since Zimmerman, the adult, never bothered to tell him otherwise. Should he have called 911 or run to a neighbor’s house? Sure, but since when are 17 year olds known for their superior judgment? Zimmerman, as the adult in the equation, had a responsibility to make sure he didn’t come off as a creepy ass cracker stalker and when he didn’t he lost any of my sympathy.

  15. 15
    BGinCHI says:

    They don’t call him “Lord” Saletan for nothing.

    A useful definition of “ideology” is that it gets rid of contradictions. It makes consensus without consent, or at least without the kind of consent that involves critical thinking.

    Saletan’s reasoning here is indicative of the conservative (reactionary) mind.

  16. 16
    Shrillhouse says:

    Slightly OT, but reasonably related:

    I’ve belatedly come to the realization that James Kunstler is a bit of a racist nut:

  17. 17
    TooManyJens says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    And what evidence is there that his brains were being bashed out on the concrete sidewalk?

    Well, duh, Zimmerman said it. And he has no motivation to lie, so that should settle it. The physical evidence is reverse-racist against him, that’s all.

  18. 18
    scav says:

    I am so fucking tired of people telling me what I may or may not be upset about, especially by some desk-based income-insulated white as his collar opinion-pusher.

  19. 19
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Two trolls, one thread.

  20. 20
    D58826 says:

    Well according to juror B37 both were responsible: ‘”I think both were responsible for the situation they had gotten themselves into,” said the juror. “I think they both could have walked away.”

    Martin DID walk (actually run) away but Zimmerman followed him. Maybe we should give prospective juror’s an IQ test before they can serve. Anything below the level of a doorknob and you are excused.

    The amount of energy being spent to convict Martin of something, anything, is amazing

  21. 21
    Cacti says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Ta-Nehisi Coates has written a very good piece on this case.

    TNC is correct insofar as the problems with the Zimmerman case began with law enforcement officers, who upon seeing a dead black teen with a hole in his chest, assumed that he must have been the one causing a problem.

    Flip the script and make Zimmerman a 29-year old black man, and Martin a 17-year old white teen, and the Sanford PD reaction would have been some variation of the following:

    If Zimmerman isn’t shot on sight, he’s apprehended in the roughest possible manner (tasered, clubbed, maced, etc.) and is face first on the concrete with cuffs on his wrists in seconds. He’s booked the same evening, tested for drugs and alcohol, and his clothes are seized as evidence.

  22. 22
    Jebediah says:

    The fucking cutesy-ass contrarian bullshit is a lot less amusing when a murdered teen is involved.

  23. 23
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Diana: I know. ‘Cause you know how it’s NOWs fault for not protesting the about to be passed abortion law in Texas. Let all the deaths from botched abortions and miscarriages be on their hands.

    There is only one group of people that owns this law: The lawmakers that passed it. What if the NAACP had protested it? Martin would still be just as dead. Don’t try to change who owns this law and how much whites still use race to their advantage.

  24. 24
    Ted & Hellen says:

    Hey Betty…the judge and jury in the Zimmerman trial focused on the Zimmerman trial and evidence/testimony/applicable law/etc. relating to the Zimmerman trial.

    They were not required to focus on all injustice everywhere and apply their general frustration with society and bigotry in rendering George Zimmerman to be your sacrificial lamb.

    Do you get this concept? That individual trials are not generalized out to address your random concerns about OTHER trials and other cases?

  25. 25
    David in NY says:

    Richard Cohen can explain it all to you: Trayvon Martin was a “young man understandably suspected because he was black.” And if you find this objectionable, go here:

  26. 26
    Cacti says:


    Should he have called 911 or run to a neighbor’s house? Sure

    Disagree. Public Enemy didn’t write a song called “911 Is a Joke” for no reason.

    If he calls the cops, likely as not, when they get there they harass him about what he’s doing in the nice white man’s neighborhood and why is he scaring him. Then they probably pick him up for some imaginary violation.

  27. 27

    Saletan is a misogynist and bigoted contrarian libertarian hack, linked to approvingly, many a time by Andrew Sullivan. So this article is not surprising, at all.

  28. 28
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    @David in NY:

    Please tell me there’s some context there that makes it better than ‘if you’re black, you’re necessarily a suspect’. I know it’s Richard Cohen, but…

  29. 29
    Betty Cracker says:

    @PeakVT: Please see jury instructions and juror comments about how central SYG was to the outcome. I realize that the defense didn’t specifically cite the law when presenting their case — they didn’t have to. But it was a factor, and all the framing I’m seeing about SYG being irrelevant to the case is wrong and ultimately harmful to the goal of getting it overturned.

  30. 30
    BGinCHI says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Oh, so a trial has nothing to do with other trials?

    God you’re an idiot.

  31. 31
    handsmile says:

    Some time ago I lost interest in keeping apprised of Lord Saletan’s meditations on ethics and politics, but for those of sterner stuff did he happen to mention here when he last participated in a police “stop-and-frisk” action?

    In response to the tribune honored by Duncan Black as the “#5 Wanker of the Decade,” the timeless words of Anatole France:

    In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.”

  32. 32
    Napoleon says:

    Didn’t Zimmerman call the cops about people in his neighborhood (which was 20% black) something like 30-40 while he was on watch and magically 100% were black?

  33. 33
    Ted & Hellen says:


    You’ll have to expand on your brilliant reply…I’m too idiotic to understand your profound musings.

  34. 34
    Cacti says:

    When the white establishment media assures us that a legal outcome had nothing to do with race…

    You can be sure that it had everything to do with race.

  35. 35
    Ted & Hellen says:


    I don’t know…seriously, why don’t you google that, find the answer and then make your comment, instead of trying to appeal to the Hang Zimmerman tribe here with your rumor mongering?

  36. 36
    liberal says:

    The jury instructions in Florida pre-SYG did not contain that clause…

    Right; a bunch of lawyers posting on the interwebs claim it wasn’t a SYG case, in the sense that Zimmerman’s defense didn’t take that route.

    However, it would appear to be a SYG case in the sense of the jury instruction above (haven’t checked this but have heard it elsewhere), and in that SYG might have hampered the desire of the cops to investigate.

    BTW, my impression looking around the interwebs is that criminal defense lawyers think the jury came to the right conclusion. The most disturbing thing about their claim (as an “is” not “ought” assertion) is that the burden of proof re the self-defense claim would be the same in all states, or maybe not OH; and that it’s been this way for a long time.

    I find that hard to believe; and it seems nonsensical, insofar as how can the state prove a negative? (“It is beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman had no cause to fear for his life or serious bodily harm.”)

    I guess I can now go out, blow someone away, go home, nick myself with a razor, show up at a police station, and claim self-defense.

    I know this hits African-Americans a lot harder than white guys like me, but still, this fscking pisses me off to no end. Ultimately, it’s a complete violation of the notion of a “just order”.

  37. 37
    David in NY says:

    @The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Well, Mr. Cohen does feel bad for both men, but he fully understands why these things happen …

    No, the context doesn’t make it any better — the text is the context.

  38. 38
    Person of Choler says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Evidence as to head bashing was presented at the trial.

    I hesitate to join you in applauding the fact that a man acquitted of murder should have to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life. As far as I know, we don’t support racial blood feuds here. Yet, anyway, but I see you’re working on promoting it.

  39. 39
    amk says:

    @BGinCHI: double dick: “precedence? what does it mean?”

  40. 40
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Lord Salatan has committed many crimes in his writing that fully justify the display of his head on a pike at King’s Landing.

  41. 41
    Betty Cracker says:


    Did the NAACP marshall opposition to the Stand Your Ground initiatives when these laws were proposed and passed? If not, why not?

    Yes — lots of groups opposed it. But the loudest opponents to the law’s passage in 2005 were law enforcement agencies. Since it was an NRA bill before a wingnut-majority legislature, it passed anyway.

  42. 42
    Flatlander says:

    Re the Dooley case, one major difference is that in the Dooley case there were multiple witnesses who all testified that Dooley was the aggressor.

    According to the Tampa Bay Times, witnesses stated that Dooley made verbal and physical threats and pulled out his gun before any physical altercation began, and that the deceased only put his hands on him in an attempt to disarm him.

    I got all fired up about this too, but I did some basic research before I opened my own mouth. One would have to look a bit harder to find a truly equivalent case.

    If there had been multiple eyewitnesses testifying that Zimmerman was the aggressor in a similar fashion, he might not have walked. Or, conversely, if nobody had seen what Dooley did, and he kept to his story, he might have gotten away with it.

    Dead men tell no tales.

  43. 43
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    @David in NY:


    Just…I’m too depressed to be angry anymore.

  44. 44
    Violet says:

    Anyone seeing any movement on the boycotting of Florida? Any other celeb support for Stevie Wonder?

  45. 45
    ruemara says:

    @BGinCHI: There is no precedent for precedence.

  46. 46
    burnspbesq says:


    Zimmerman feared for his life

    You can choose to believe the Zimmerman’s defense team’s narrative if you wish. I am not so credulous.

    The jury’s verdict appears to be consistent with the evidence. I am a firm believer that juries get it right far more often than they get it wrong. This time, the jury (arguably through no fault of its own, but rather because of an inadequate record) pretty clearly got it wrong.

  47. 47
    p.a. says:

    Reid, McConnell compromise, no nukes for now.

  48. 48
    liberal says:


    Sure black people were slaves because they were an inferior people, but it stopped being about race when they were freed.

    Interesting is Harlan’s dissent in Plessy, where he touches upon that, I think:

    Because it presupposed—and was universally understood to presuppose—the inferiority of African Americans, the act imposed a badge of servitude upon them in violation of the Thirteenth Amendment, according to Harlan.

  49. 49
    Marc says:

    @Jebediah: This. Also, “Both sides do it” doesn’t play as well when one side is criticizing a verdict and the other is shooting teenagers.

  50. 50
    liberal says:


    Anyone seeing any movement on the boycotting of Florida?

    It’s funny that there’s a need to organize a boycott of FL. Apologies to any Floridians here, but I’ve always thought the place was a shithole. It’s both hot and human, has little interesting topography, sickening environmental destruction (everglades; mangroves being cut down cuz we gotta have our ocean view!!), and this cherry for shit on top. And now AFAICT the statehouse is full wingnut.

  51. 51
    Cacti says:

    The Zimmerman verdict also established a novel criminal defense theory.

    If you’re a black person in proximity to a sidewalk, you are considered armed.

  52. 52
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Queen of Willful Stupidity.

  53. 53
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Yeah, you’re so butch with your tumbrels.

  54. 54
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Flatlander: Actually, I followed the case pretty closely, and that’s not how it went down. Dooley did brandish his gun according to witnesses, but the same witnesses said he turned to go back to his house when the victim spun him around to try to take the gun and died in the ensuring struggle. The story is in the link above.

    I’m not excusing Dooley or any other asshole who takes it upon himself to confront unarmed people with a gun over nothing or his own paranoid suspicions. But I think Dooley’s case is illustrative; maybe he would have got off if he shot all the witnesses too. He could claim he was in fear of his life, I suppose.

  55. 55
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    It’s sad that the truest words ever written as a comment here were spoiled by the addition of “… to understand your profound musings.”

  56. 56
    catpal says:

    Well said. I am tired and so sad that there are so many racist willing to say and write that this murder of Trayvon Martin was SYG justified. As you pointed out – flip the races of murderer/victim and we know the verdict would be different.

    I am trying to be patient and hopeful that the DOJ goes after Zimmerman – like they did in this hate crime in PA more of the story 2 Pa. men convicted in Shenandoah hate crime case

    It has similarities of police cover-up corruption racism, all-white jury, poor local/state prosecution.

    That Federal conviction too nearly 2 years – so I will try to be patient and work somehow for better justice.

  57. 57
    Cassidy says:

    @BGinCHI: @amk: You expect too much. When it has its hand firmly jammed up its ass reaching for more shit to fling, it only has the capacity to defend bigots and rapists and stalk Betty. It won’t be long before it suggests she get raped again.

  58. 58
    liberal says:


    I am tired and so sad that there are so many racist willing to say and write that this murder of Trayvon Martin was SYG justified.

    Looks, it’s not just racism. There are many forms of stupidity:
    (1) Racists
    (2) Gun nuts
    (3) Some defense attorneys (cf Talk Left blog)

  59. 59
    Patrick says:


    the shooting was not about race because Zimmerman feared for his life.

    Why did he fear for his life? He was specifically told by the 911 operator not to follow Martin.

    If you feared somebody, would you voluntarily go out of your way to follow/stalk them?

  60. 60
    liberal says:


    …arguably through no fault of its own…

    Now that one juror has opened her yap, this is far from clear.

  61. 61
    Chyron HR says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    WAAAAH John Cole really hates Trayboon just as much as I do! H-h-h-h-he’s just grifting you botulists with his red meat! JEALOUS?????

    You’re up early today. Run out of vodka?

  62. 62
    p.a. says:

    @Ted & Hellen: That doesn’t seem to be her point at all. Looks like she says this insane law has predictable results, and the results are quantifiable. And from a certain point of view, it’s not a bad law and the insane result is the desired result. You’re not even close to building a straw man argument, but I have to give you props for nimble fingers; it’s gotta take concentration to build a straw cricket.

  63. 63
    liberal says:

    Sadly, I seriously doubt that’s novel.

  64. 64
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Chyron HR:

    Still jealous?

  65. 65
    catpal says:

    @liberal: yes. most recent cheers for GZ came to me from a local PA Gun-Nut.

  66. 66
    Amir Khalid says:

    Saletan ignores the fundamental asymmetry between Trayvon’s assumptions about Zimmerman, and Zimmerman’s assumptions about Trayvon. The former led to Trayvon trying to get away from a man following him for no apparent reason, and then to try to defend himself; the latter led to actions by Zimmerman that were “stupid and dangerous” (per Saletan’s own description) and ended with him killing Trayvon.

  67. 67
    strawmanmunny says:

    I used this graph on a message board and got shouted down because they said the white of black group had only 25 incidents. Said it didn’t mean anything with that small of a sample size, is there anything to that?

  68. 68
    Nicole says:

    All I can think about every time I read something about Juror B37 is Mark Twain’s old chestnut: “She was not quite what you would call refined. She was not quite what you would call unrefined. She was the kind of person that keeps a parrot.”

    He had some other really good things to say about juries, come to think of it.

  69. 69
    Ted & Hellen says:


    You’re very clever, and I like the “cricket” slam. Well done!

    That said, my overall point is that GZ was found not guilty under the laws as they applied at the time of the shooting. And that’s as it should be.

    Therefore, why are you all screaming for his conviction in this case, which would be a true incidence of jury nullification?

  70. 70
    eric says:

    @burnspbesq: I was something different. Though let me add that I think Zimmerman feared for his life from the onset of the encounter because it was a young black man. it was the same “fear” that influences many whites to be wary of all black men no matter the circumstances. for many of us it is racism for them it is prudence because most black men are prone to criminality. when you point out that is a racist sentiment, they will deny it as pure empiricism and when you show them actual facts that contradict their so-call empiricism, then you are the racist for disallowing their beliefs.

  71. 71
    Person of Choler says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Perhaps I’m wrong, but didn’t a forensic expert testify at the trial that Zimmerman’s injuries were consistent with having his head pounded on concrete?

  72. 72
    celticdragonchick says:

    Third rate Conservative “crunchy”, perpetually concerned moral scold Rod Dreher over at
    assures us that Saletan is right and that there is no larger lesson or anything to infer from the trial!

    Oh, and teh out of control uppity “flashmob” black kids are being shot by other black kids, so they have no reason to complain about white cops and neighborhoods carrying a sidearm.

    Then again, this is par for the course from a guy who keeps quoting from Gates Of Vienna, and Steve Sailor who writes for the white supremacist

  73. 73
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Person of Choler: the injuries would also be consistent with being shoved into a wall and several other possibilities. He had a several small lumps, a couple of abrasions and two minor cuts that did not need stitches. I have seen worse from a bad landing at a skateboard competition.

  74. 74
    Patrick says:


    for them it is prudence because most black men are prone to criminality.

    Say what?

  75. 75
    bd of mn says:


    the jury’s verdict appears to be consistent with the evidence


    this time, the jury (…) pretty clearly got it wrong

    IANAL, but this appears to be a bit cotradictory….

  76. 76
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    I have so many friends and coworkers who just don’t get why this wasn’t just a simple case of reasonable doubt. Of course, they tend to be white, vote Republican most times, and have no idea the kind of racism black kids face, especially in states like Florida.

    Here’s a link to what one of them posted on FB today:

    Black on black crime doesn’t get enough press…if only Obama hadn’t opened his yap….blah blah blah….


  77. 77
    WereBear says:

    Zimmerman feared for his life because a black teenager was walking in his neighborhood.

    That’s what the juror meant when she said she would welcome him as her neighborhood watch person “as long as he didn’t go too far.”

    What she meant was shooting white people.

  78. 78
    Person of Choler says:


    Thank you for the welcome.

  79. 79
    scav says:

    Having a bullet hole in you is consistent with being murdered. Next.

  80. 80
    burnspbesq says:

    How long before the following scenario plays out in Florida?

    (1) routine parking-lot fender-bender
    (2) Driver A emerges from vehicle with smartphone in hand, prepared to take down Driver B’s information for insurance purposes.
    (3) Driver B emerges from vehicle with gun in hand and kills Driver A
    (4) Driver B tells police that he mistook iPhone for Glock and reasonably feared for his life.
    (5) Driver B is not arrested.

    The current state of the law in Florida is that if you can contrive a confrontation and remember to sing the magic song at the right moment, you can kill anyone you want with impunity

  81. 81
    Petorado says:

    So here we are in the “land of the brave and the home of the free” and legislators have determined that it is the law that a person claiming to perceive fear may rob another of all of their Constitutionally protected freedoms.

    I guess “We, the jury, find Francis Scott Key to be a liar.”

  82. 82
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Therefore, why are you all screaming for his conviction in this case, which would be a true incidence of jury nullification?

    Because statements from B37 seem to indicate that she had already determined to be as favorable as possible to GZ going in, which means that she tainted the result.

  83. 83
    burnspbesq says:

    @bd of mn:

    Did you miss the part about the inadequate record?

  84. 84

    Was just told on the facebooks that the Trayvon thingy isn’t about race because racism is divisive and so we shouldn’t make it about race. My hed explodeded.

  85. 85
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Amir Khalid: Excellent point.

  86. 86
    Person of Choler says:


    Too bad you weren’t able to advise the prosecutor to hire an expert to dispute the testimony of the guy who said it looked like Zimmerman’s head got itself smashed into concrete. The outcome might have been different.

  87. 87
    Patrick says:

    legislators have determined that it is the law that a person claiming to perceive fear may rob another of all of their Constitutionally protected freedoms.

    Don’t forget the responsibility of the voters who got them there. Elections have consequences.

  88. 88
    eric says:

    @Patrick: this is a core belief of the racist, then they will put to Chicago or NY as evidence for this. sadly it is a routine sentiment.

  89. 89
    Betty Cracker says:

    @strawmanmunny: The article I linked above the graph goes into that at some length.

    The Tampa Bay Times also has some stats:

  90. 90
    catpal says:

    a little more hope for some justice

    Former Shenandoah Police Chief Matthew Nestor on Wednesday was handed a prison sentence of 13 months for falsifying police reports … “Americans rely on their law enforcement officials to protect public safety and serve justice,” said Thomas E. Perez, assistant attorney general for the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice.


    Hoping we see the same convictions of some Sanford Police.

    Elections matter.

  91. 91
    celticdragonchick says:

    So we get the “Nuts and Sluts” defense with a great new update!

    Scary Black Men Wearing Hoodies and armed with a portable sidewalk!

  92. 92
    Patrick says:


    Oh, I see. It’s not your view, you are just reiterating what they think. That makes more sense.

  93. 93
    RaflW says:


    the people who are pissed off about it aren’t focusing exclusively on whether or not Zimmerman is a racist douche

    Exactly. We’re focusing on how our country is a racist douche.

  94. 94
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: and he did just that. Although, not necessarily in approval.

  95. 95
    eric says:

    @Patrick: yes. it follows on the heels of the comments section of papers and yahoo. I could Poe the heck out of this……

  96. 96
    Yatsuno says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: Sorry, can’t deal with Sully’s whitesplaining here.

  97. 97
    The Other Chuck says:

    Am I the only one that reads Saletan’s name and occasionally drops the third and fourth letters?

  98. 98
    beth says:

    @Ella in New Mexico: I know Sullivan is all in favor of not hiding anything from his readers but I wish to God he’d take the photo of Trayvon off the right side of his blog.

  99. 99
    beltane says:

    @The Other Chuck: No you’re not. It’s especially easy to do so when he’s being referred to as Lord Saletan.

    And can we all just ignore Person of Colon, he’s full of shit.

  100. 100
    burnspbesq says:

    The Magic Song (sung to the tune of “I Get a Kick Out of You”):

    Officer, let me explain,
    I was in fear for my life, that is plan,
    I thought that I might end up dead,
    So I popped a cap in his head.

  101. 101
    elspi says:

    Mrs. Cracker, you don’t understand. Zimmerman was one of the “good guys with a gun” aka a concealed weapons permit holder. As the NRA has told us repeatedly, these people never commit crimes; therefore logically Zimmerman must be innocent.

    You being a libutard wouldn’t know this, but B37, also being a “good guy with a gun” new instinctively that Zimmerman was innocent. She is in fact psychic. She knew that Zimmerman had a right to ‘’stand his ground” even though she had never heard of the killing of Travon Martin before the trial, and yet she was able to parrot every one of the excuses you get from the Zimmerman apologist on the web. Just like she knew that it was Zimmerman screaming on the tape even though he was strangely unwilling to repeat that scream on the stand.

    I am not sure if these “good guys with guns” (ggwg) are more like a nation wide lynch mob or more like the “innocents” of Montana history.

  102. 102
    El Caganer says:

    The head-bashing thing seems off to me. I’ve had a couple of relatively minor head wounds (including, yes, one caused by having my head bashed on the sidewalk), and in both cases they (a) bled a hell of a lot and (b) required stitches. Neither seems to be the case here. I’m afraid I’m one of the pessimists that believe not only that Zimmerman’s going to wind up killing somebody else, but that we’re going to see a tidal wave of similar killings.

  103. 103
  104. 104
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Person of Choler:

    Too bad you weren’t able to advise the prosecutor to hire an expert to dispute the testimony of the guy who said it looked like Zimmerman’s head got itself smashed into concrete. The outcome might have been different.

    Too bad the prosecutor did not challenge much of anything at all concerning defense witnesses. By the by, my spouse is finishing up a forensic biology degree on her way to go to med school to be a forensic pathologist. Not to be snarky, but I may have been exposed to this kind of thing a bit more then you, even if I cannot claim anything as an “expert”. Want to know about the VOD and decomposition of HMX high explosive? I had to research that. Use of cyanoacylate fuming for fingerprint analysis, and the fume reaction with sebum? Use of SYBR Green? GC/MS analysis of cocaine, heroin and THC metabolites?

    I have had to read on and research all of this crap relating to forensic science these past few week, as well as draw God knows how many molecules of scheduled drugs…and I have no interest in forensics!

    I can say with some certainty that a claim of “an injury is consistent with such and such” does not conclusively establish that is how the injury happened. It only establishes ONE possibility out of several.

  105. 105
    LongHairedWeirdo says:

    I really don’t get this.

    I mean, I do, but I don’t.

    Zimmerman says he was being bashed, but I’ve taken worse injuries than he took in grade school in childhood fist fights. (It was the early 70s and a working class neighborhood. Times are different, thank goodness. Though I do think today’s parents freak out a bit too much over a childhood scrap. They should freak out, there should be punishment – but keep perspective, kids have to learn self discipline, sometimes by making mistakes and being taught better.) He claims – and his testimony, true or not, is self-serving – that Martin reached for his gun while straddling his body, which is difficult to do.

    Witnesses in the Dooley case say they saw the other guy reach for the gun. If you are in retreat, and someone tries to grab your gun, you have reason to think they want to hurt you with it. That’s a much clearer offer of great bodily injury than a bloody nose and a scratch on the head. I’m not justifying the shooting, mind you – I don’t know the facts. But that should have been a clear cut SYG defense. That should have been more clear cut than Zimmerman’s.

    Of course, one of the major differences is probably not race. It’s probably that Dooley didn’t get over a hundred grand in donations to pay for legal fees. If Zimmerman had to pay for his own attorney, or take a public defender, he’d probably have taken a plea for manslaughter with a sentencing recommendation, *even in a hypothetical universe where Martin had immediately and viciously assaulted him*. Because the PD would have pointed out to him what a roll of the dice he’d be making, risking murder 2 and a life sentence.

  106. 106
    celticdragonchick says:


    Sully is right about this one. He called out the bullshit from Geraldo.

  107. 107
    BGinCHI says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Exactly.

  108. 108
    John O says:

    True confessions: I never realized how much I needed this place until Tunch was murdered. I’m kind of a loner misanthrope, too.

    I remember my Saletan youth, where I too was idealistic enough to try to find a workable “compromise” on the abortion issue. Mine was a national database of abortions, and tubes tied after abortion #4. My youthful idealism still makes me laugh. As it usually goes, I’ve become more “conservative” as I age, at least about some things, and the government being omnipresent and omnipotent is one of them, so now I’m about as radically “pro-choice” (hate that term) as they come. is shutting down my browser, so I can’t log into my own blog. (An e-mail or (!) phone number link would be greatly appreciated.) So here I babble.

    I think what I wanted to get across was that I think this is the best blog on the ‘nets.

  109. 109
    nineone says:

    Stand Your Ground, motherfuckers. Stand Your Motherfuckin’ Ground.

  110. 110
    p.a. says:

    @burnspbesq: goddamn it, can’t do edits, deletes, or links from my not-smart-enough phone. Or maybe it’s the not smart enough owner.
    One more try here.

  111. 111
    Ramalama says:

    @burnspbesq: Saddens me to say that it’s only a matter of when, I think.

    Also, with homicides increasing in SYG states, does this not cause rates for insurance coverage overall to jump as well?

    Calling all actuaries.

  112. 112
    handsmile says:


    Witnesses. It would seem to be all about the presence of witnesses.

    Well that, and the race of the scenario’s participants.

    Tangential, but nevertheless good, legal news:

    A Georgia county judge has issued a temporary stay of execution for mentally-retarded inmate Warren Hill, three hours before the sentence was to have taken place. The narrowness of the ruling, however, pertaining solely to the state’s Lethal Injection Secrecy Law, may not long keep Hill from the death chamber for what would be the fourth time this year.

  113. 113
    Person of Choler says:


    The only experts who really count in this matter were under oath and subject to cross examination at the trial.

  114. 114
    Flatlander says:

    @Betty Cracker: Summarizing things inevitably leads to a partial view. Here’s another report of the same testimony:

    They said Dooley turned and started home, but James caught up with him. “Mr. James said, ‘Don’t flash a weapon,’ something like that,” Michelle Whitt testified.

    Then, she said, Dooley pulled out the gun and James grabbed his hand. The men struggled, they fell to the ground, and James ended up on his knees as Dooley lay on his side. They still wrestled for the gun.

    Whether James grabbed for the gun before or after Dooley pulled it out is unclear given the differing reports of witness testimony. In Whitt’s testimony above, the order is that Dooley pulled out the gun first and then James grabbed his hand.

    The clearest thing is that Dooley’s own testimony varies greatly from that of any of the witnesses:

    Dooley, who is 5-feet-7 and weighs 160 pounds, told jurors he had to struggle with a man 28 years younger who was 6-1 and 240 pounds. He said he pulled out the gun only after James grabbed him by the throat and began yanking him to the ground. “I had no other choice,” he said.

    In contrast,

    the witnesses persisted in labeling Dooley the aggressor.

    They said James never tried to punch or choke Dooley. They said he only went for the gun. “There were no threats, no fists,” Michelle Whitt said.

    The testimony by Dooley does seem similar to that given by Zimmerman. If nobody else had been there, it might have stood in court. The major difference is that several people saw something different happen and testified to that effect in court.

    This is not a parallel case to that of Zimmerman, because there were no eye-witnesses to the entire struggle between Martin and Zimmerman.

  115. 115
    Redshirt says:

    @Flatlander: A scary fact is eyewitness testimony is inherently biased or colored by lots of different circumstances, and should not be automatically treated as the truth. Not even from a malicious intent, though that can be a factor too.

  116. 116
    nineone says:

    @beth: And take away perfectly good Libertarian fap material? Heaven forfend.

    Fuck Sully.

  117. 117
    RenoRick says:

    Why do we have to explain things like this to people? It’s kind of like using the “she was asking for it” defense after being accused of rape. You just don’t rape. Period.

  118. 118
    Keith G says:


    Zimmerman feared for his life because a black teenager was walking in his neighborhood

    I doubt it. I think it is very possible that by the time he was on the ground, Zimmerman’s fears were not based on color.

    Zimmerman feared for his life because a teenager in the process of beating him like an old rug. Zimmerman’s fears for his life were due to circumstances that he initiated even though he was told not to proceed. In many states, that leads to charges of manslaughter. Not in Florida

  119. 119
    DavidTC says:

    If you feared somebody, would you voluntarily go out of your way to follow/stalk them?


    From what I understand, the progression of self-defense is this:

    Basic self-defense laws say you have to attempt to retreat, and if unable to, you can use appropriate force to defend yourself.

    Castle doctrine says you do _not_ have to do this in your own house. You do not have to attempt to retreat out the back door.

    Stand Your Ground laws take this to the next step, and say you don’t have to attempt to retreat at all, even outside out house. (Which is insane, because now _neither_ party has a duty to de-escalate, thus meaning it literally is possible for both parties to draw guns and shoot each other and…hey, wait a second. Stand Your Ground laws mean that _dueling_ is now legal again.)

    However, this case, and this is the problem with what _actually_ happened, as opposed to what the prosecution was able to prove happened…

    Zimmerman went even one step beyond that and _followed_ someone.

    That’s not even ‘stand your ground’.

    That said, I’m not entirely sure the jury was incorrect in this case. The law seems correctly applied, the law is just fucking stupid.

    When you deliberately chase down someone and they end up shot via your own gun, I have to suggest the burden of proof for the reason you shoot them should be on _you_. Don’t want that to happen? Don’t attempt to fucking chase people down while armed.

    And that’s not to mention all the black people who mysteriously get convicted when there is exactly the same amount of evidence against them as against Zimmerman.

  120. 120
    KG says:

    As I read all of the post trial analysis (and really most anything that has to do with racial issues), I keep going back to a line from West Wing, I don’t know why it sticks in my head so much, but it really does… the British Ambassador (played amazingly by Roger Rees) says something along the lines that every country has its original sin, for the US it’s slavery and treatment of Native Americans, for Britain it is Ireland.

    I don’t know how we deal with our original sin because on so many levels, race has played a major factor in our history. Native Americans, slavery, Chinese indentured servants in the West, treatment of Latinos during western expansion. For a lot of people, it’s easy to ignore it, especially if you live in the suburbs. But it’s absolutely there and we can’t seem to face it because it would be incredibly uncomfortable and so, so, so easy for the worst impulses to get the microphones.

    As for the Zimmerman case in particular and SYG in general, while I believe in the right to self-defense (particularly the use of proportionate force up to and including deadly force), I do not believe it should apply when a person instigates a confrontation. And based on the limited information I have (didn’t follow the trial closely, didn’t see how the evidence was presented), it seems that Zimmerman instigated the confrontation when he decided to get out of his car and follow Martin, despite 911 dispatchers telling him not to do so. You start a fight (and that doesn’t mean you threw the first punch), you don’t get to claim self-defense. That’s just basic common sense.

  121. 121
    KG says:

    @DavidTC: retreat isn’t always necessary. It is usually/often required in cases of use of deadly force, but use of proportionate force doesn’t necessarily require retreat. As an example, A throws a punch at B, B has the right to strike back in self defense, B does not have the right to pull a knife and stab A in the neck or break a beer bottle over A’s head.

  122. 122
    eemom says:

    The forest is lost to the trees again and again in these arguments. That’s why I thought TNC’s piece that I linked yesterday was so important.

    The tragedy and the outrage of this case has nothing to do with what went on in that courtroom. The tragedy and the outrage is that piece of shit law, and that we live in a nation where it is even conceivable that a “law” would enable a paranoid, belligerent asshole to walk the streets with a gun and kill an unarmed child without committing a crime — let alone that such actually is “the law” in Florida and everywhere else these sick fucks get their way.

    That’s why there need to be riots.

    Oh, and T&H? That’s why someone who truly gives a shit about gun control doesn’t troll thread after thread smugging about how perfectly the judicial process worked in this case.

  123. 123
    Persia says:

    @celticdragonchick: It’s amazing how many white Republicans suddenly give a shit about black on black crime. You’d almost think something happened.

  124. 124
    Jebediah says:


    A scary fact is eyewitness testimony is inherently biased or colored by lots of different circumstances,

    Ain’t that the truth! Years ago, a friend and I walked into a McDonalds that was getting robbed. We were not impaired in any way, not stressed by having a gun pointed at us, etc. but when the police came around we could not agree on whether the guy had a red shirt or a blue shirt. Each of us absolutely sure the other was mistaken.

  125. 125
    Svensker says:


    And, no, you’re wrong: Stand Your Ground was NOT invoked. It was purely a self-defense trial.

    The defense did not invoke it. But the jury instructions included taking it into account and the infamous juror has said that they did.

  126. 126
    Mike G says:

    If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force

    Martin, apparently, had no such rights.
    Floriduh: where a black teenager can be put on trial for his own murder

  127. 127
    eemom says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Thank you, exactly the one I was referring to. TNC totally nails it.

  128. 128
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Flatlander: No two cases are exactly parallel, of course, but if anything, it seems like the testimony of the witnesses bolstered Dooley’s case since the witnesses said he was trying to leave and at least some of them say the victim went for Dooley’s gun. Zimmerman eliminated the only witness immediately on the scene.

  129. 129
    Yatsuno says:

    @Svensker: Not to put too fine a point on it, but you’re interacting with a blogwhore. He’ll be around begging for money here rather soon.

  130. 130
    The Other Chuck says:

    @John O: You simply matured, whereas some people whose entire shtick is to have “big ideas” never do.

    I used to be pretty conservative in my teens, as anti-abortion as they get, and now I’m militantly pro-choice and I too never really liked that term. But “pro-choice” is simply honest, and “pro-reproductive-freedom” is just too much of a damn mouthful to say. It isn’t always a comfortable choice, and some might not even call it a moral choice, but the freedom to make the choice to terminate a pregnancy ought to be a goddam civil right.

    Back to maturity and big ideas though, I’m reminded of an author I liked back in my teen years: Tom Clancy. Yes, I liked Tom Clancy books, and I still think Patriot Games is a pretty decent book partly because Jack Ryan hadn’t yet become the God-Emperor of the Universe and Lord of All Marty Stus Everywhere. Anyway, to open one of the books, Jack Ryan gets this great idea that no one ever thought of before to solve the whole Middle East thing. You’re never let in on all the details, but it’s just implemented by the next page, and demonstrated through a little story where, I can’t recall exactly what, but some kid commits a crime like purse-snatching or something, and he’s hauled before a Priest, an Imam, and a Rabbi to answer for it. Nope, this isn’t a setup that concludes with “walked into a bar”, it was Tom Clancy’s Big Idea For Peace In The Middle East: just let all three religions share in administration. Whole Middle East Peace Problem solved nice and neat in one chapter, faster than the first subplot of a post-2000 Simpsons episode.

    I think I’ll just let it stand there and not comment on how droolingly idiotically naive that is. Oops, I just did.

    So yeah, most people outgrow their childish ideas and put childish things away. But some people turn it into a writing career.

  131. 131
    A Ghost To Most says:


    It’s funny that there’s a need to organize a boycott of FL. Apologies to any Floridians here, but I’ve always thought the place was a shithole. It’s both hot and human, has little interesting topography, sickening environmental destruction (everglades; mangroves being cut down cuz we gotta have our ocean view!!), and this cherry for shit on top. And now AFAICT the statehouse is full wingnut.

    This. Both my parents (divorced) fled NY state for Florida; one a Democrat, and one a stone-cold racist gun nuzzler. Apparently, they found the weather and politics preferable. I myself have been on a personal boycott of the state since 2001. The only places you are less likely to find me are: 1. Texas, 2. South Carolina, 3. Mississippi, 4. Alabama, and 5. Georgia.

    W.C. Fields, known to hate Philly, is rumored to have on his headstone “On the whole, I’d rather be in Philadelphia “. I doubt I could rouse such enthusiasm for the south.

  132. 132
    dianne says:

    Does anyone remember hearing that Zimmerman stated that the gun was in his back pocket? How did he get his hands on it if Martin was on his chest pounding him? That has never been explained or else I missed it.
    I would have hung that jury in a heartbeat but, as my husband said, I would have never made it onto that jury.

  133. 133
    Person of Choler says:


    Republicans probably don’t give scat about black on black crime. In this they are in accord with Democrats, as least in avoiding dealing with such crime as a serious manner.

    It would be interesting to see the following numbers:

    Percent of the US population who know who Trayvon Martin was
    Percent of the US population who can name one black teenager killed in Chicago last weekend…

    …and discuss the reasons for the difference.

  134. 134
    Jebediah says:

    Yup. If you had told me, several years ago, that such a law would be proposed, let alone passed, I would have thought you a nut. I keep thinking that shit like this is the fever of American racism burning itself out, but that might be too optimistic.

  135. 135
    PeakVT says:

    @Betty Cracker: I guess I’m quibbling with the word invoke, which I’ve always understood to mean something the defense does. The judge certainly brought the law back into play in the jury instructions.

    AFAICT, this is the current self-defense statue.

  136. 136
    Yatsuno says:

    @Person of Choler: Such a wonderful man of straw you have built there. Shame if a lighted match gets too close to it.

  137. 137

    I just browsed through Sullivan’s site following the link posted above. There is post after post about shaving. His website has officially jumped the shark. His next book, View from your window, bears and hirsute beauties.

  138. 138
    RaflW says:

    Oh, and can we please not just finger the NRA is this SYG travesty?

    ALEC pushed SYG as “model” legislation. So ALEC and their funders such as the National Chambers of Commerce have blood on their hands along with the NRA.

    Name it to claim it: big biz wanted to lower the cost of killing.

  139. 139
    D58826 says:

    @dianne: There was testimony that the gun was in his holster, under his slacks, shirt and jacket. The gun was in the small of his back. I to have wondered about the Houdini like aspect of how he got the gun out with Martin sitting on his chest pounding his head with concrete. In addition the gun was a double action, which my limited understanding means Zimmerman would have had to perform two actions with the gun when firing it. All in all quite a feat for someone being beaten to a pulp.

  140. 140
    gelfling545 says:

    @WereBear: This is one of the very troubling parts of this law to me: your fear does not have to be in any way reasonable, apparently.

  141. 141
    stratplayer says:

    Has Ted & Hellen ever offered a thoughtful, constructive point in a thoughtful, constructive manner? I’ve never come across a more toxic troll.

  142. 142
    Amir Khalid says:

    Not that I recall. In fact, he seems to grow more toxic with each change of nym.

  143. 143
    Jebediah says:


    In addition the gun was a double action, which my limited understanding means Zimmerman would have had to perform two actions with the gun when firing it.

    No, a double-action gun means pulling the trigger cocks and fires – a single action requires you to cock the gun, then pull the trigger ti fire.
    Which doesn’t at all change your main point, in my opinion.

  144. 144
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @RaflW: ALEC pushed this to add to white fear: Liberals are trying to take away your right to protect yourself. How are you going to protect yourself if you can’t shoot someone who is threatening your life. There is only one party that will protect whites and you have to turn out to vote or we won’t be able to. And then you will die.

    ETA: Because we won’t be able to take your SS, Medicare, and Medicaid if we tell you that’s why we’re here.

  145. 145
    Betty Cracker says:

    @stratplayer: No. But his trolling activities here may slow down his production of Precious Moments figurines featuring Jerry Sandusky and George Zimmerman, so there’s that.

  146. 146
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @stratplayer: Not that I’ve seen, but I only see its comments when the troll filters break.

    Speaking of which, pa’s comment at 110 broke Troll-B-Gone. I assume it’s the malformed link.

  147. 147
    Person of Choler says:


    Please feel free to take your Zippo to my straw man.

  148. 148
    The Other Chuck says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I couldn’t reproduce the problem — 110 was hidden when blocked through either participant. What browser are you on?

  149. 149
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @El Caganer:

    I’m afraid I’m one of the pessimists that believe not only that Zimmerman’s going to wind up killing somebody else, but that we’re going to see a tidal wave of similar killings.

    Actually, this is what you’re hoping…the outrage would be so very delicious.

  150. 150
    Citizen Alan says:


    Did the NAACP marshall opposition to the Stand Your Ground initiatives when these laws were proposed and passed? If not, why not?

    Assuming the answer to the first question is “no,” I imagine it was because the law is facially race neutral. It is only in the application by juries that it becomes discriminatory. Also, the NAACP, understandably, was probably more focused on Florida’s long-standing and blatant efforts to prevent blacks from voting to anticipate the possibility of a self-defense law making it effectively legal to kill blacks.

  151. 151
    D58826 says:

    @Jebediah: thanks for the correction. My knowledge of firearms kinda stops with Matt Dillon and Gunsmoke

  152. 152
    Ted & Hellen says:


    That’s why someone who truly gives a shit about gun control doesn’t troll thread after thread smugging about how perfectly the judicial process worked in this case.


    For a lawyer, you’ve got it exactly wrong, eemom: I am in favor of strict-ass gun control. Which was not a factor in any way in the Z case, as no such laws exist in Florida. The Z case was decided under the law as it applied at the time of the shooting.

    Which is exactly as it should be.

    And I am amused/appalled at all these alleged liberals here calling for jury nullification.

    The fact that you don’t get that is bizarre, because you’re smarter than most here.

    And please, but spare me, these endless Z thread comments are mostly about he should have been convicted despite the law, which is just fucked up.


  153. 153
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @D58826: I picture that when Zimmerman lost track of Martin, he pulled the gun just in case — after all, he thinks Martin is a dangerous malefactor — which is why in the altercation he feared for his life, because he imagined that after losing a fistfight and banging his head on the pavement (I don’t think it was banged repeatedly; I think he added that for effect, like the bushes and the “you’re gonna die tonight” etc.) the guy who was kicking his ass would take his gun and shoot him. And Martin probably figures that a random stalker with a gun is going to shoot him unless he fights him off with all the strength he can muster, which is why the fight continued. So, again, I feel like Zimmerman probably gets off even if he tells the real story, but he almost certainly didn’t tell the real story. Hopefully that means he feels guilty. Somewhere in his shriveled little conscience.

  154. 154
    Ted & Hellen says:


    He’ll be around begging for money here rather soon.

    You mean like Cole and ABL do?

  155. 155
    liberal says:

    There was an incident somewhere in the past 10 years (perhaps)—a case of road rage between two white women drivers. After they both parked (on the side of the road, I guess), one got out of her car and confronted the other. The one who got out had a gun and, on impulse I guess, shot and killed the other.

    In this case, if you want to color things in terms of bias, the shooter was wealthier than the vic.

    Not sure what happened in a legal sense.

  156. 156
    TooManyJens says:

    Did Troll-B-Gone just break for anyone else?

  157. 157
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Thank you!

  158. 158
    Cassidy says:

    Shorter comment #152: The law worked just fine. The “boy of color” got killed.

  159. 159
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    All the more delicious for your outrage platter!

  160. 160
    liberal says:

    @El Caganer:

    (a) bled a hell of a lot

    That’s what I don’t get. I haven’t heard any evidence that there was bleeding consistent with a lethal or serious bodily injury threat.

    …but that we’re going to see a tidal wave of similar killings.

    I’m not sure that’s going to happen, but it’s not at all improbable.

  161. 161
    D58826 says:

    @FlipYrWhig: I always figured he had the gun in hand. If I was going to follow a ‘dangerous black thug’ in the night and had a gun I sure would have it out. But then I would never have gotten out of the car.

  162. 162
    TG Chicago says:

    I’m confused by the graph, specifically the blue bar in the “White on Black” region.

    If the blue bar combines the red and purple bars, shouldn’t it fall somewhere between the red and purple? How can the total be less than the combined SYG and non-SYG?

  163. 163
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Ted & Hellen: so the endless NSA/Snowden threads, which all have to do with things that are well-established as legal, resulting in a lot of talk about how despite their legality they’re still troubling and morally wrong and should be stopped… Also a problem, because the important thing to you maintaining is a strict, narrow focus on the law as written?

  164. 164
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Ah Bitter Betty, always intelligent; always lifting the discourse; always desperately and sloppily overcompensating for her existence as a white southern individual of questionable background.

    Hey Betty…ever said the word n****r?

    Paula Deen wants to know.

    Be honest.

  165. 165
    The Dangerman says:

    Here’s your latest White Trash Report; whacked woman is from Barstow, which was the topic of a thread not that long ago about hell holes.

  166. 166
    Trollhattan says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Speaking of Classic BJ Trolls, I’m getting a strong B.O.B. vibe from commenter “TruSkeptic” in the TNC post cited, above. Wow, do I ever (not) miss him. S

  167. 167
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @The Other Chuck: FF 22.0, GM 1.8, Windows 8. Troll-B-Gone works fine through 110, doesn’t work afterward. I suspect the bad HTML in the link pa tried to post is screwing with Troll-B-Gone’s ability to identify the beginning / ending of each post.

  168. 168
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I’m too idiotic to understand

    First sensible thing you’ve ever written here.

  169. 169
    Villago Delenda Est says:


    That’s not even ‘stand your ground’.

    Yes it is.

    Anywhere in that gated community was Zimmerman’s sacred ground to be stood on, especially if the trespasser was a ni*CLANG* hoodlum, wielding skittles like cluster bombs.

  170. 170
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Cohen has been saying that kind of thing for decades: that people who are scared of young black men are just playing the odds, so it’s OK to have that prejudice and totally not racist. I remember him insisting on this back in the 1980s. He’s at least consistent.

  171. 171
    Trollhattan says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Cole warned you last time you reemerged from Banhammer Cove to knock the personal attack shit off, yet here you are, personally attacking a front pager.

    Take. Your. Meds.

  172. 172
    Ted & Hellen says:


    In both cases, the laws should be changed. I favor strict gun control.

    But I also don’t believe TM was killed in cold blood, or a lot of the other bullshit narratives that get fondled around here.

    Regarding ES, because the U.S. laws under which he would be charged have not changed, he is wise to stay out of the country or any other that would turn him over to the Obamanistas in office.

  173. 173
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @D58826: IMHO he got out of the car because he decided that the cops weren’t as keyed up as he was, so this punk would get away just like all the rest, and he had had enough of being treated like the boy who cried wolf and he would just have to show everyone how he was better than the actual cops at doing the work of actual cops, catching robbers. Then he proved to be really bad at being intimidating and also at fighting. So he had to come up with a scenario by which he was surprised and overpowered by a seriously scary dude, because the alternative would be admitting that he was a hapless wannabe. I bet the part of the trial he squirmed at the most was having to hear everyone say he was the voice screaming.

  174. 174
    Amir Khalid says:

    Indeed? This is of some historical interest to me; I was still only lurking here when the Brick Oven one was banished.

  175. 175
    El Caganer says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Really? And you know that….how, exactly? I’m not outraged – I’m scared shitless. SYG heads us straight towards barbarity, and for no good reason.

  176. 176
    ruemara says:

    @The Other Chuck: I feel this is an insult to Saetan, who is a gentleman, a scholar, High Lord of Hell, handsome and ethical Black Jeweled Warlord Prince and Black Widow.

  177. 177
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    Your edit reminds me of what NBC, in an obvious effort to paint him as a racist, did to Zimmermans statement to the dispatcher regarding TM’s appearance/race.

    Keep making shit up. It amuses me.

  178. 178
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Cole warned you last time you reemerged from Banhammer Cove to knock the personal attack shit off, yet here you are, personally attacking a front pager.

    Hey dishonest dipshit, in your role as co owner of the blog you should email John and tell him all about it. Be sure to include Bitter Betty’s comment to me to which I was replying, OK?

    I’m sure you’ll do that.

    You were a playground tattle tale, weren’t you?

    Oh, and eat shit, ok?

  179. 179
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @TG Chicago: Because the bars represent the difference of percentages, or fractions. You’re subtracting a larger fraction (%) in the blue bar. I don’t have time to come up with the numbers as an example, but it’s related to a/b + c/d != (a+b)/(c+d).

  180. 180
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Ted & Hellen: fine, but my point is that your focus on applying the law excruciatingly narrowly to how the Zimmerman case ought to be talked about has never been your focus when it comes to how the NSA/ Snowden case ought to be talked about. Which suggests that it’s not really something you feel is fundamentally important, but rather a weapon that’s ready to hand so you can continue to skirmish and squabble with what you perceive to be the prevailing opinion here.

  181. 181
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @El Caganer:

    I’m scared shitless.

    Oh you are not…get off your fainting couch and go outside for god’s sake.

  182. 182

    I think that the Zimmerman saga is actually the real Republican Hispanic outreach program. My only question is if George’s brother thinks these things up himself or has a scriptwriter:

  183. 183
    ruemara says:

    @Keith G: No defensive wounds on Trayvon Martin. No abrasions, no flesh under the nails, no blood. It might be nice to believe that he was in the process of a beat down on Zimmerman, but no, he died frightened with hardly a bit of physical resistance that could leave a mark. After seeing the crime scene shots, this case is even worse than I thought.

  184. 184
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Hmmm….I shall think about your statement and reply later. Fair enough?

  185. 185
    johnny aquitard says:

    I have no idea how the jury found Zimmerman’s use of deadly force reasonable.

    This isn’t even SYG, it’s when someone is legally able to use deadly force in self-defense.

    If we accept everything Zimmerman has said at face value, we are still left with a larger, 29-year-old man armed with a deadly weapon who, after pursuing a smaller unarmed 17-year-old boy and getting into a fistfight with him, insists because he got knocked down by the boy’s fists he had a reasonable belief he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and therefore was justified in using deadly force in self-defense.

    Where’s the reasonableness here? A 17-year-old’s fists are deadly weapon? Getting knocked down, bruised and scraped in a fistfight is imminent death or great bodily harm?

    Where’s the intent, the ability, and the means of an unarmed 17-year-old fighting a bigger man with his fists to cause him death or great bodily harm?

    A commenter over at TNC had it nailed:

    The prosecution had the opportunity to boil the whole trial down to one very simple question: Even if we accept the vast majority of what George Zimmerman said as true, is shooting someone a legitimate response to losing a fistfight? The answer is no.

  186. 186
    El Caganer says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Again with the mind-reading? You are indeed a creature of many talents.

  187. 187
    Chyron HR says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    But I also don’t believe TM was killed in cold blood

    Of course not. You believe that Martin was high on marijuana and text messages and attacked poor innocent Mr. Zimmerman who was minding his own business.

    I’m just not entirely sure why you think anyone here should give a shit what you believe.

  188. 188
    Xenos says:

    @Shrillhouse: Holy crap! I thought Kunstler was a bit kooy even though I found some of his critiques to be valid. Now he is barely whispering racist denunciations of all Black culture, and his commenters are openly denouncing miscegenation and claiming that the races can never hope to socially mix.

    I have been out of the states for about three years… what the holy hell is going on over there?

  189. 189
    burnspbesq says:

    @The Dangerman:

    “Whacked person from Barstow” is redundant.

  190. 190
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Perhaps the lack of that evidence is due to the fact that he was the aggressor.

    But yes, you know better of course.

  191. 191
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @ruemara: IMHO the lack of signs of defense on Martin’s body also shows that Zimmerman was unable to mount an offense against which Martin had to defend. I think Zimmerman was getting humiliated in the fight, and that’s a big reason why he escalated to pulling the trigger.

  192. 192
    Xenos says:

    Is this T&H chap the troll who was defending Sandusky?

    Goes to figure, we somehow attract a ‘leftist’ killer who eagerly runs out to publish apologetics for child killing and child fucking.

  193. 193
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Chyron HR:

    I’m just not entirely sure why you think anyone here should give a shit what you believe.

    Not my concern.

    You seem to think I give a shit what YOU think though. I assure you are mistaken. Piss off troll.

  194. 194
    Ripley says:

    Do you get this concept?

    Cosmic Irony Alert.

  195. 195
    Trollhattan says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    A racist douche who writes in Harris tweed prose, he’d talk about stalking some brown immigrants (seriously, he would stalk people and brag about it) then try to polish the turd by citing the seven liberal arts and…at which point he was so far into the weeds everybody would be scrambling for the gin bottle.

    It got old pretty fast but he was handed enough rope to lasso Oklahoma, eventually sticking his head in the noose one too many times. I do not miss him not one bit.

  196. 196
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Have I killed someone?!!!

    Have I been published?!!!

    Dear god, someone please bring me up to date…

  197. 197
    Xenos says:

    @Ted & Hellen: or that Zimmerman is full of shit and was not getting his head slammed, but rather, after trying to hit the boy, got wrestled to the ground and received a lot of bitch slaps. Which, as a bitch, he deserved.

  198. 198
    ruemara says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Yes, I do. Thank you for recognizing that.

  199. 199
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Evidence and verdict say different…but you were there and know better, so please do carry on.

  200. 200
    The Other Chuck says:

    @TooManyJens: Yeah, just after I said I couldn’t reproduce the problem, the whole script up and died on this particular thread. I’m debugging it now, should have a fix today.

  201. 201
    Xenos says:

    @Ted & Hellen: ‘apologetics’. Look it up in a fucking dictionary.

  202. 202
    Trollhattan says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Why, tha vapahs, ah do believe ah have tha vapors.

    Take. Your. Meds.

  203. 203
    Xenos says:

    @Ted & Hellen: The law is an ass, and the jury were assholes. But you are OK with that, I see.

  204. 204
    Ted & Hellen says:

    By the way, anyone who wants intelligent writing on the Zimmerman case, the trial, the ridiculous media coverage, and the surrounding hysteria from all sides, should be reading Bob Somerby at The Daily Howler.

    He is dead on.

  205. 205
    Ted & Hellen says:


    There is an entire dictionary dedicated to the subject of fucking?

  206. 206
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Well, I would disagree…tribalists like you are the asses and related holes.

    That I am fine with.

  207. 207
    ruemara says:

    @FlipYrWhig: You don’t think it’s possible that he went with a drawn weapon, a’la every cop flick/procedural show in existence? Emulators creating the reality that’s in their heads? I base that conclusion on the grade D action dialogue he put in Trayvon’s mouth and the way he was acting very chill and buddy with the cops, using the language of the police. Unfortunately, most cops do not go guns drawn into such a situation, they go with a ready holster to prevent an accidental escalation.

  208. 208
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Wannabe Warhol (Troll & Harrumph) just never learns. Yesterday, he seemed to try to be nice; now he has reverted to form.

    B.O.B. was a PITA, but he was occasionally amusing.

  209. 209
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @johnny aquitard: If I role-play Zimmerman, going by my impressions of Zimmerman and what makes him tick, I think he panicked that if he lost the fight he’d end up being shot with his own gun. I don’t think Martin reached for it, certainly not behind Zimmerman’s back and what have you. I don’t even think Martin bashed his head repeatedly — I think as they struggled they fell over and Zimmerman conked his head once on the concrete. But it sounds like the jury believed that Zimmerman believed that he was being beaten so severely and/or on the verge of being shot with his own gun that preempting the rest of the sequence by shooting first was reasonable. I don’t believe Zimmerman’s story.

  210. 210
    Cassidy says:

    @Xenos: Don’t forget rape.

  211. 211
    Eric U. says:

    I was always concerned that SYG would spawn a batch of killings. It did happen, 7-9% increase in homicides. For some reason, we didn’t really hear about it. I wonder if this will accelerate that trend in really egregious ways.

  212. 212
    Xenos says:

    @Ted & Hellen: So you are saying you are, indeed, OK with the ALEC-based gun laws and jurors who came to a verdict in spite of not understanding the jury instructions? I take it you are OK with jurors negotiating book deals while the trial is underway?

    Every time I try to insult you, you respond by admitting something worse than what I had accused you of. What a piece of work!

  213. 213
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @ruemara: I think he had the gun out, yes, but got knocked down quickly. I imagine that Zimmerman has the gun out and at his side and steps in front of Martin to say something like “what are you doing?” Martin says, “Nothing, what’s it to you?” and tries to walk on past, not having seen the gun. Zimmerman reaches out with his free hand and tries to grab Martin by the shoulder, Martin reacts by turning and punching, and then the struggle hits the ground. If that’s what happened, I can easily believe that Zimmerman wouldn’t have been able to throw any kind of damaging punch, which probably was a factor in why he felt he was right to save himself by escalating to the gun. Total speculation on my part, but I feel like it fits what I know of the evidence and the attitudes of the principals.

  214. 214
    ruemara says:

    @FlipYrWhig: possible. I’d have to see CZ walk a bit to know if he was as awful at Hand2Hand/MMA as they claimed. I see it more as a jumping-from the back, attempt to throw him off by Martin, restraint attempt by CZ, push back to the ground, rolling struggle from concrete to grassy area, GZ on top, escalated endorphins a bit of a rush-BANG! He gets up like nothing is wrong, and acts casual because look at him, he’s a hero who has killed a perp. The details of what Martin was a perp of will be provided later. And I also look at the jury, the nonchalance of Juror 37B to be precise and I wonder to what extent there was collusion and jury tampering going on. All speculative, besides a child dead and his killer walking scott free without even a slap on the wrist.

  215. 215
    Ripley says:

    I shall think

    Cosmic Irony Alert.

  216. 216
    Citizen Alan says:


    Goes to figure, we somehow attract a ‘leftist’ killer who eagerly runs out to publish apologetics for child killing and child fucking.

    I’ve never believed T&H was a leftist or really anything at all politically speaking. It’s a troll, a sociopathic personality that derives perverse pleasure from angering other people online. Here, that means pretending to be to the left of Obama while contrarily providing apologetics for the murder and/or rape of children. I doubt T&H has any real coherent beliefs beyond what it needs to believe at the moment in order to infuriate and disgust other people. I suspect it types all of its posts with one hand while masturbating furiously with the other.

  217. 217
    Ted & Hellen says:


    I take it you are OK with jurors negotiating book deals while the trial is underway?

    Is it illegal?

    If not, then yes.

    I don’t think it’s the greatest idea, but when you’re writing up the law I’m sure you’ll be agitating for, be sure to include judges, lawyers, court personnel, police, defendants, and accusers in your writing books ban, kay?

  218. 218
    Ted & Hellen says:


    I was going to reply further to this, but there’s no use. You make up shit and can’t read, so there’s no point.


  219. 219
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    If it pleases you and titillates your self righteous g-spot to believe all this hoo hah, then be my guest.

    Happy orgasms!

  220. 220
    The Other Chuck says:

    Troll Filter’s fixed — head to and click the green “install” button.

  221. 221
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @The Other Chuck:

    Will do! Thanks Chuck.

  222. 222
    The Other Chuck says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Just out of curiosity, I expanded your post. Please do me the favor of blocking me. And as many other people as you can while you’re at it.

    JSF I unblocked because deep down he’s all right. Far as you’re concerned, I hope a backhoe takes out your internet, but IP-banning you would be fine by me too.

  223. 223
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @The Other Chuck: Yay!

  224. 224
    Kay says:

    What I think is extraordinary is how many people completely accepted Zimmerman’s story. They completely accepted that a 17 year old who had absolutely no reason to attack this person was just overcome with a killing rage, based on Zimmerman’s minor injuries that could have occurred any number of ways in an altercation, and the location of Zimmerman’s cell phone and flashlight, which also could have dropped any number of ways, including Zimmerman trying to restrain Martin (which is what I think is the most likely scenario). They believed this, although Zimmerman admitted he moved Martin’s limbs, thereby altering the scene.
    I get that we only heard one side of the story, but there’s about 50 different ways this could have played out, and people settled on “suddenly and inexplicably rage-crazed 17 year old “?
    What is that about?

  225. 225
  226. 226
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @The Other Chuck:

    Don’t know what “expanded your post” means, delicate banning/filter person.

    Help me out?

  227. 227
    Mike Lamb says:

    @Ted & Hellen: No fucktard, the evidence and the verdict say neither of those things. They say only that the prosecution couldn’t prove the elements of the case beyond a reasonable doubt.

  228. 228
    burnspbesq says:


    What is that about?

    We both have a pretty good idea what it’s about.

    T&H is determined to believe it’s not about what it’s about, but his/her/its inability to deal with reality is his/her/its problem, not yours or mine.

  229. 229
    burnspbesq says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Help me out?

    You’re beyond help.

  230. 230
    eemom says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Either you didn’t read my comment or you’re deliberately ignoring what I said.

    I am talking about the travesty of the larger picture — i.e., the fact that that law exists at all.

    Someone who is truly concerned about that larger picture, in my opinion, wouldn’t spend so much time gloating about the “correct” result being reached under that monstrosity of a law.

  231. 231
    Mike Lamb says:

    @Ted & Hellen: On what planet is an attorney writing a book anywhere near the same as a juror? How would a potential book deal impact (to the detriment of the attorney’s client) how an attorney tries a case? Or even a judge in a jury trial?

  232. 232
    pat says:

    Was there any testimony about powder burns on Martin’s shirt? In other words, did the forensic evidence uphold the “sitting on his chest beating his head on the sidewalk?”

  233. 233
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Mike Lamb:

    You’re out of control.

    Please detail which “things” it is you think I think the verdict says.


  234. 234
    Ted & Hellen says:


    You clearly suck as an attorney.

    Your clients are beyond help and someone should let them know.

  235. 235
    Ted & Hellen says:


    My interest here regards fascination with the know nothing tribalism masquerading as liberalism (lol!) in threads like this.

    And I enjoy mocking the Bots.

    However, your concern that I am not concerned enough about SYG, which was not part of the defense case in the Z trial anyway, is duly noted.

  236. 236
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Mike Lamb:

    I disagree. If one is inappropriate, then all are. Perhaps a judge would change a ruling or three to boost potential books sales! Perhaps an attorney would do his or her job differently to boost book sales! Perhaps, perhaps perhaps!

    While you’re at it, please explain why the juror’s book would have sold better due to a “not guilty” verdict?

    Seems to me a book by a Zimmerman juror is going to sell well either way.

    But your tribal thinking demands that only a NOT GUILTY verdict will lead to a smash hit!

  237. 237
    Mike Lamb says:

    @Ted & Hellen: The clear implication of your response to Xenos is, among other things, that the evidence and verdict corroborates that Zimmerman’s head was being slammed into the ground and/or that Zimmerman wasn’t full of shit.

    Neither is accurate.

  238. 238
    Kay says:


    It was interesting to listen to at the trial, because when the minor injuries were contrasted with Zimmerman’s account- they don’t match, at all, with a barrage of blows and 20 strikes on concrete-Z’s lawyer would affect OUTRAGE. Which I expect!
    What I didn’t expect was for everyone else to ignore common sense and BELIEVE this bullshit.

  239. 239
    Mike Lamb says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Show me where I suggested that a juror’s book would sell better based on any verdict. The point is that the appearance of impropriety is much greater with a juror than with an attorney and arguably a judge. Especially in the circumstance (of which there is some evidence here) where the juror went in to the proceedings with the idea of a book deal in mind.

    I’m also not advocating for a ban on book deals in these types of circumstances. I am only arguing that it is an unfortunate side effect of TV trials, and that it can create substantial doubt as to whether the judicial process is functioning appropriately.

    Oh, and the idea that if one is inappropriate, all are inappropriate is amazingly poor logic.

  240. 240
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Zimmerman’s hands after “fighting for his life”:

  241. 241
    nineone says:

    And I enjoy mocking the Bots.

    I am familiar with mocking. What you do doesn’t quite rise to that level.

    Now, annoying, OTOH….

    Think fly, picnic.

  242. 242
    eemom says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    SYG, which was not part of the defense case in the Z trial anyway

    That is as red herring as it gets. SYG was incorporated in the jury instruction. If the jury did their job — which according to you, they did — then SYG absolutely controlled the verdict that they reached.

  243. 243
    Mike Lamb says:

    @Ted & Hellen: By the way, I love your bullshit that you spewed about wanting to wait for the system to reach a verdict before casting judgment, while simultaneously mocking nearly everyone who had the gall to express an opinion based on their analysis of publicly available evidence as if you have some great love of the system.

    Tell me why, then, you never commented in response to anyone that was shilling for Zimmerman prior to the verdict being rendered? Why didn’t your name pop up in response to the commenter that continued to state, in the absence of real evidence, that Martin was mounted on Zimmerman “MMA style”? Why do I have difficulty believing that you were on other sites who dragging Martin through the mud making similar snarky comments?

  244. 244
    Jebediah says:

    @Patricia Kayden:
    Holy shit. My hands have looked far worse after trying to give a kitty a pill. Fighting for his life my ass.

  245. 245
    Kay says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    If you have the stomach for it, read his statements and interviews, in order.

    See if his account still seems plausible.

    I think he tried to restrain Martin and Martin (understandably) resisted. If that’s true, the 17 year old used proportionate force in response to a threat. Recall Martin has NO.IDEA who this person is.

  246. 246
    Cassidy says:

    @Mike Lamb: Dude, you gotta keep in mind that Sandusky & Ramirez has no principles, no positions, nothing it passionately believes in. All it wants is to argue. The only thing it does is try to be as offensive as possible, in the process defending every bit of white privilege, bigotry, rpae/ rapists and murderers. That’s it. It’s a skin bag of nthingness, lonely and emotionally empty, hoping for someone to validate it’s pathetic existence. If you ignore it, it squeals louder. One day, we will log on here, it won’t comment for some reason (here’s hoping for something involving fire!), and no one will notice. Treat it as the boring, one trick pony it is, and forget about it.

  247. 247
    Kathleen says:

    @burnspbesq: Small caveat. Driver A is blah (or possibly Hispanic or Middle Eastern). Driver B is white.

  248. 248
    Xenos says:


    The current state of the law in Florida is that if you can contrive a confrontation and remember to sing the magic song at the right moment, you can kill anyone you want with impunity

    With the result being that everybody feels they need to carry a gun in order to feel safe. As always, the NRA does whatever is in the best interest of manufactures, no its membership.

  249. 249
    Ted & Hellen says:


    then SYG absolutely controlled the verdict that they reached.

    “absolutely controlled…”

    Yeah right. No SYG evidence presented, the term used once in final arguments, and yes of course that term “controlled” the verdict.


  250. 250
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Mike Lamb:

    Why do I have difficulty believing that you were on other sites who dragging Martin through the mud making similar snarky comments?

    Well, first of all, you have trouble believing that because you are a mindless BJ Bot operating under the tribal assumptions here to comfort yourself with the idea that you “belong” to this “community.”

    Secondly, what you believe has absolutely no bearing on the facts of my online activity, to whit: BJ is the one and only site I comment on.

    Thirdly, all these commenters “shilling” for Zimmerman (lol) on BJ are an infinitely tiny tribe compared to the BJ dominant comment cohort (BJDCC) out for Zimmerman’s lynching. It’s hardly necessary for me to add my voice to the torrent of existing abuse.

    BTW…I’d love to see you link to any comments where I personally “drag Martin through the mud…”

    Thanks for reading!

  251. 251
    Ted & Hellen says:


    I think he tried to restrain Martin and Martin (understandably) resisted. If that’s true, the 17 year old used proportionate force in response to a threat. Recall Martin has NO.IDEA who this person is.

    Wow, Kay. You’re just making shit up.

  252. 252
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Mike Lamb:

    nearly everyone who had the gall to express an opinion based on their analysis of publicly available evidence


    That should read based on their tribal affiliations at BJ and other faux liberal sites.

  253. 253
    Kay says:

    Also, Betty, thanks for all these posts on this. I love the local FL angle, but they’ve all been great.

  254. 254
    eemom says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Holy shit.

    Do you have any idea what a jury instruction is, or the function it serves?

    Based on that response — and again, assuming as you do that the jury did what it’s supposed to do — you have no fucking clue.

    It’s not about the “term” SYG — it’s about the applicable legal standard.


  255. 255
    Pink Snapdragon says:

    @eemom: What else do you expect from this fucking idiot. He/it is a smartass with mush where his/its brain is supposed to be.

  256. 256
    Original Lee says:

    I know it’s wrong of me, but I keep reading T&H as T&A. Amazing how much they like pie, though.

  257. 257
    Ted & Hellen says:


    You’re obsessed with me.

    Too bad you’re so fat.

  258. 258
    Ted & Hellen says:


    Oh eemie poo, calm yourself.


  259. 259
    Cassidy says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Oh you sad little pathetic thing.

  260. 260
    Ted & Hellen says:


    How pathetic do you have to be to stalk and obsess over a “sad little pathetic thing?”

    Ready to come out of the closet?

  261. 261
    Cygil says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Ready to come out of the closet?

    Seriously, who would object to justing banning this ranting, content-free troll? He’s reduced to fag-bating now?

  262. 262
    Cassidy says:

    @Cygil: Meh, he’s just a boring, lonely old queen, useless as any other turd floating in the sewer.

Comments are closed.