Snowden’s Big Mistake

assange-dummy

Yesterday, Edward Snowden allegedly released a new statement. Here’s an excerpt:

For decades the United States of America have been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person.

First of all, the use of the plural verb highlighted above: Americans use the singular form when referring to the United States, while those who speak the Queen’s English use “are.” Either Snowden didn’t write that statement himself, or he wrote it and then allowed Julian Assange or his UK-based WikiLeaks handler in Russia to edit it.

Secondly, the US government or local authorities routinely compel citizens to surrender passports if they’re accused (not convicted, but accused) of a crime and deemed a flight risk, right? Snowden isn’t stateless — he’s just in hot water with his state.

Speaking of Assange, it appears he’s making Ecuador regret its kindness in taking him in:

Mr. Snowden’s case appeared to be causing tensions between the government of Ecuador and Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder. Mr. Assange has been in Ecuador’s embassy in London for more than a year, given asylum there to avoid extradition to Sweden, where he is wanted for questioning on allegations that he sexually assaulted two women.

“The conduct of Assange has bothered me a little, and this morning I spoke with the foreign minister to tell him not to speak about our country’s situations,” Mr. Correa [Ecuador’s president] said Monday, according to Agence France-Presse.

Mr. Correa was apparently displeased by comments that Mr. Assange made on Sunday on the ABC program “This Week” regarding Mr. Biden’s telephone call. Mr. Assange characterized that call as an effort to pressure Mr. Correa. “What does he know about the call from Joe Biden?” Mr. Correa was quoted as saying by A.F.P. “And he says that he called to pressure me. I have never permitted a call to put pressure on me.”

Now Correa says Snowden is Russia’s problem, and Russia says Snowden has withdrawn his application for asylum there.

I’ve never quite known what to think about WikiLeaks: I can see both sides of the argument on transparency. Moreover, I’m generally suspicious when someone who is causing problems for a government is suddenly (and conveniently) discovered to be a pervert.

But whether or not Assange is guilty of sexual assault, the people who entrust government secrets to him don’t seem to fare so well, and he doesn’t appear competent enough to handle travel arrangements, let alone classified information. Future leakers beware.

[X-posted at Rumproast]






387 replies
  1. 1
    NCSteve says:

    . . . the people who entrust government secrets to him don’t seem to fare so well, and he doesn’t appear competent enough to handle travel arrangements, let alone classified information. Future leakers beware.

    I’ve noticed the same thing about Glenn Greenwald.

  2. 2
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Kind of an “Oopsie” for Snowden now, huh?

  3. 3
    Maude says:

    Snowden’s mistake was releasing classified information into the public sphere.

  4. 4

    This does not strike anyone as the same “counter top inspection” that you all complained about when Michelle Malkin did it? Or is this really inquiring minds that have suddenly decided to focus on anything but the NSA or government spying?

  5. 5

    Betty, that’s a brilliant catch on the verb form! Great work.

  6. 6
    Geeno says:

    @Ramiah Ariya: I think the real point of the post is that Assange is not the conduit of choice if you want to leak government secrets. He doesn’t seem to have a problem leaving his sources to twist in the wind.
    Rightness/Wrongness of said leak is not being considered here.

  7. 7

    @Ramiah Ariya:
    No. We went over the actual leak and its meaning thoroughly when it came out. The only shocking claim turned out to be bullshit. The rest was same-old-same-old law enforcement and espionage. Having learned that the ‘leak’ was a nothingburger, we are free to examine the leaker, because he’s a hilarious clown show.

  8. 8
    amk says:

    It’s all buncha libertarian claptrap with amateurish production value.

  9. 9
    Botsplainer says:

    I have noticed that some Teahadi types like using that sort of pre-Civil War designation. It would fit some aspects of Snowden’s Paulite proclivities. Interestingly, I think his special list is a little light on African destinations.

    Of course, the rest of his list is bog standard Assange/wikilikihacker babble.

  10. 10

    In my experience, people who embrace a states rights point of view also refer to the United States in the plural form.

  11. 11
    the Conster says:

    Now imagine what an actual libertarian-run country would look like, if such a thing weren’t absurd on its face. Clowns all the way down.

  12. 12
    amk says:

    Many countries to snowden: Get here first.

    assange and wikilieaks know jacksquat about how these things work.

  13. 13
    weaselone says:

    @Ramiah Ariya:

    Most of Snowden’s leaks have regarded the NSA spying on foreigners which happens to be the NSA’s job. The “bombshell” he dropped regarding domestic spying was that NSA collected call metadata and internet records with FISA court approval. Although the details of this program were unknown, anyone actually paying attention knew that something of this nature was ongoing.

  14. 14
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Ramiah Ariya: I’m questioning WikiLeaks’ trustworthiness to handle classified information and act in the best interests of the whistleblowers Assange encourages to come forward via his organization. Unlike countertops, it’s directly relevant to the issue at hand.

  15. 15
    Emma says:

    This whole thing is making me rethink Snowden’s role in all this. For someone with so much supposed intelligence experience he came across as completely clueless about how everything works in the real world of intelligence gathering, but at least there was the beginning of a discussion about the idea of online privacy and how to best write it into law (a pet madness of mine) and about the horror show that is the Patriot Act. Then he started kicking over anthills at random like a kid throwing a tantrum, and I started asking myself what the hell was going on.

    Now he seems like somebody’s patsy. A clueless kid with an inflated ego who got conned into doing somebody else’s dirty work.

  16. 16
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Botsplainer & @Comrade Dread: Interesting; I didn’t know that. Luckily for me, I’m not often compelled to edit documents from neo-Confederate sources.

  17. 17
    Marmot says:

    “I can see both sides of the argument on transparency.”

    Heh.

  18. 18
    Jay in Oregon says:

    I have a friend at work who is convinced that Snowden is some kind of tactical genius.

    When I sent him the link to last week’s story about Snowden’s 2009 comment that leakers “should be shot”, he said “Well, of COURSE he’s going to pretend that he’s OK with the spying in order to get the job!”

    So Snowden is clever enough to lie convincingly for years—long enough to infiltrate the NSA—but not enough to have an escape route and destination planned?

  19. 19
    Svensker says:

    Well, I see that the messenger is dead. Jesus.

  20. 20
    Robin G. says:

    Side note: went to school with Eddie. He wasn’t that bright. Even without the verb tense I’d have my doubts as to whether he’d written this.

  21. 21
    dr. bloor says:

    @Ramiah Ariya: It would help tremendously if Snowden would stop photobombing his own story.

  22. 22
    Cassidy says:

    Only the little people answer questions from law enforcement about sexual assault.

  23. 23
    becca says:

    @Ramiah Ariya: ah, grasshopper…

    There are those of us who have FBI folders from the Viet Nam War daze that label us subversive for counseling draftees. JEH was a freaking despot.

    This is a very old fight with a new cast of characters.

  24. 24
    Comrade Jake says:

    Reading the comments on a similar story over at Gawker this morning, one would conclude the US is basically two steps away from becoming the next Nazi Germany.

  25. 25
    mistermix says:

    If you want some more insight into just what a clown car Wikileaks is, with Assange at the helm, the story of how an Icelandic Agustus Gloop became Assange’s buddy and an FBI informant is pretty interesting:

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-po.....informant/

    He took a good thing and let his ego spin it out of control.

  26. 26
    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford says:

    @Emma:

    For someone with so much supposed intelligence experience he came across as completely clueless about how everything works in the real world of intelligence gathering, but at least there was the beginning of a discussion about the idea of online privacy and how to best write it into law (a pet madness of mine) and about the horror show that is the Patriot Act.

    What intelligence experience? The fucker is a 29 year old GED equivalent computer programmer who didn’t realize how great he had it compared to his actual level of skill and competence. He seems to possess one marketable skill which the jackass parlayed into a high-paying job for a consulting company where he got to live in Hawaii and live with an exotic dancer. And he threw it all away.

    Snowden is a fucking moron. An absolute fucking moron.

  27. 27
    different-church-lady says:

    For making these sensible observations an Orc army will descend upon you in 5… 4… 3… 2…

  28. 28
    Anybodybuther2016 says:

    he seems like somebody’s patsy. A clueless kid with an inflated ego who got conned into doing somebody else’s dirty work.

    Isn’t it funny how many ratfucking operations there’s been since that one came on the scene? It seems like he’s had to deal with some pretty odd shit back to back.

  29. 29
    magurakurin says:

    Snowden should just turn himself in. I’d bet he’d be able to get decent representation and he could probably argue diminished capacity or something. He really hasn’t done that much damage and he probably wouldn’t get so many years in jail. If he keeps on though, he will turn more and more people against him. With each passing day he seems more and more a turncoat than patriot (I’ve never thought of him as that, but I’m pretty sure at least a few decent defense lawyers have and still do) Five years in Leavenworth has to be better than life in Russia. Does he know how cold it is there in winter?

    And Assange, too. A year in the Ecuadorian Embassy sounds pretty shitty. They are so paranoid they truly believe they will be killed I think. Who knows. Sounds like a shit deal all around. I’m still trying to get my mind around what great service Assange has done for me that it was worth him sacrificing his freedom????? Who knows.

  30. 30
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ramiah Ariya: You guys just can’t stop complaining about losing control of the narrative. It’s a tough situation for you guys: every time Fast Eddie opens his mouth, he makes it about his own situation. But if he shuts his trap and lays low either the whole topic falls off the radar screen or people have time to think about what was revealed and put it in perspective and realize it’s not the hair-on-fire stuff he said it was.

    But in the end people aren’t going to stop talking about Snowden if Snowden himself doesn’t stop talking about Snowden.

  31. 31
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ramiah Ariya: Oh, and by the way, all the contertops kid did was testify before congress. That’s it.

  32. 32
    different-church-lady says:

    @amk:

    assange and wikilieaks know jacksquat about how these things work.

    For example: the ass is not the hingy thing, and the elbow is not the round pair of cushiony things.

  33. 33
    dr. bloor says:

    @magurakurin:

    I’d bet he’d be able to get decent representation and he could probably argue diminished capacity or something. He really hasn’t done that much damage and he probably wouldn’t get so many years in jail.

    Not happening. They’d bury him in a cement block at the bottom of the ocean to make an example of him, not even taking into account the headaches he’s causing them from a public-relations and fence-mending point of view.

  34. 34
    muddy says:

    WaPo was discussing the word choice and best of all date choice (1st July?) today too.

  35. 35
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jay in Oregon: It is not often we get to witness the birth of an entire branch of conspiracy theory real time. But in a flash we now have something even bigger than moon landing deniers and Kennedy assassination obsessives.

    In a sad and destructive way, it’s an example of everything that’s going wrong with our politics: people are so removed from the events they are commenting on that the feel free to say anything about them, and there is no direct way to prove them true or false in the moment. It’s a gigantic game.

    People in our society have always done this, but now even half of congress behaves this way.

  36. 36
    Shakezula says:

    Maybe he just can’t write? I also don’t get what this press release is supposed to do. As Betty points out, it isn’t even correct, which does nothing for his already wounded credibility.

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Yep. Working Intelligence and having intelligence are two entirely different things.

    The idea of terrorists doesn’t keep me up at night. The idea of some government stooge reading my emails? I pity the fool. But when I think of some of the idiots, addicts and chronic fuck ups who are responsible for capturing information in order to keep us safe?

    Oh dear. Oh deary, deary, me.

  37. 37
    different-church-lady says:

    @muddy: Yeah, date format is the tell. Without the verb problem I’d just assume Wikileaks had tacked on a date to a Snowden-penned statement. But the combination of the two makes me think Assange told him making a statement would be a good idea, and oh, by the way, here’s what you should say.

    People on other blogs have also noted the similarity to Assange’s prose style.

    Our Mr. Snowden is really bad at choosing his press representatives.

  38. 38
    bill d says:

    Karma’s a bitch.

  39. 39
    Emma says:

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Please note the “supposed”. That’s how he tried to market himself.

  40. 40
    Shakezula says:

    @dr. bloor: Except not really.

    Snowden has done 500 bazillion times less damage than real bad guys like Ames and Hanssen. Based on their treatment Snowden has earned himself a finger wagging and a stern lecture.

  41. 41
    piratedan says:

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: dunno about the exotic dancer part, but she was genially attractive. I don’t have any idea on this guy’s personality, all I can do is look at what he’s actually purported to have done…

    went “non-traditional” and got a GED
    tried the military, crashed out due to a medical mishap
    took a security job working for a security firm
    worked his way into the tech field

    None of the above works against him, but…..below

    took classified documents while in the employ of a government contractor (per his own and the Government’s claims)
    tried to “sell” his story to The Guardian and Washington Post conditionally on how they “presented” his side of the story
    left the country
    claimed that our government spies on people, illegally, both in and outside of the country (Unsubstantiated)
    sat down for a lengthy chat with the PRC
    left for Russia
    had his passport revoked
    sat down for an unscheduled chat with the FSB
    requested asylum with anyone that will have him

    this, as I understand it, is the unofficial record of actions and accomplishments of one Ed Snowden that no one seems to dispute.

    To date, no one has been inclined to publish his proof/expose regarding what laws the US has broken. His storytellers tell us that the US taps data in real time, the US says that only happens when someone is already a person of interest and that they have to petition a court in order to prove why they are a person of interest.

    So, based on his actions listed above, I’m supposed to believe this guy over my government?

  42. 42
    Hoodie says:

    @J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: A friend of mine joked that he thought Snowden was a CIA/NSA scam, theory being that the US wants to sow uncertainty as to NSA’s cyberspace capabilities and perhaps disseminate false info (or even malware) to parties (not necessarily Russia or China) who might be inclined to take the bait. You need a complete dupe to pull it off, because someone in on the plan would present a risk of divulging the plan when they’re out of your control. After all, who better to plant with false information than a clueless Paultard who takes an NSA job on false pretenses, aided by clowns like Greenwald and Assange?

  43. 43
  44. 44
    WaynersT says:

    I recently saw We Steal Secrets. It’s pretty good, and definitely a fuller picture of those sexual assaults. One of the women is interviewed and her charges seem really credible. They also interview the other wikileaks founders who left bc of him. Apparently the organization is down to just a few people now.

    http://trailers.apple.com/trai.....wikileaks/

  45. 45
    NCSteve says:

    @Ramiah Ariya: Because clearly his motives and credibility are not at all relevant to judging whether all of his allegations or whether some of them are just truthy.

  46. 46
    KCinDC says:

    I’m sure Assange is lying through his teeth about the US pressuring Ecuador. Who could imagine such a thing? Obviously Correa’s statement is as heartfelt and unconcerned about consequences as John Cleese’s apology to Kevin Kline in “A Fish Called Wanda”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7mIy97_rlo

  47. 47
    Mandalay says:

    @Ramiah Ariya:

    Or is this really inquiring minds that have suddenly decided to focus on anything but the NSA or government spying?

    It’s more the case that uninquiring minds here are completely ignoring the amazing U-turn from Correa who said this the day after he received a call from Joe Biden:

    “If he really could have broken North American laws, I am very respectful of other countries and their laws and I believe that someone who breaks the law must assume his responsibilities,” Correa said.

    Well, if that’s truly the case, why isn’t Correa handing over Assange to the British authorities?

    Completely ignored by all here is the fact that Correa’s real priority is securing international finance:

    Five years after he called international debt holders “true monsters” and the nation defaulted on two bonds issued by previous administrations, Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa is preparing for the country to return to the international capital markets this year or early in 2014.

    I suspect Joe Biden persuaded Correa last Friday that his hopes “to return to the international capital markets” won’t go too well if he accepts Snowden.

    And this might have figured in to Correa’s thinking as well:

    U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Robert Menendez, D-N.J., said he would lead an effort to block renewal of trade preferences for Ecuador if it granted asylum to Snowden.

    “If Snowden is granted asylum in Ecuador, I will lead the effort to prevent the renewal of Ecuador’s duty-free access under GSP [the World Trade Organization’s Generalized System of Preferences] and will also make sure there is no chance for renewal of the Andean Trade Promotion and Drug Eradication Act,” his statement said.

    Ecuador would lose at least 40,000 jobs if the trade preferences are not renewed, Ecuadorean Ambassador to the United States Nathalie Cely said last year.

    Yet BJ posters will keep on blaming Assange for Snowden’s problems with Ecuador. Don’t tax your poor brains too hard.

  48. 48
    dr. bloor says:

    @Shakezula: No, really. My point is that the federal government doesn’t give a shit about how much or how little damage he did. If you’re living in a world where you think the charges and penalties pursued will be in proportion to the damage caused, can you pick up a Pink Sparkle Pony for me while you’re there?

  49. 49
    dr. bloor says:

    @Hoodie: The Spy Who Went Into the Cold.

  50. 50
    Betty Cracker says:

    @KCinDC: One of the best apologies of all time. I’m sure the US is pressuring the hell out of Ecuador. But it wasn’t very smart of Assange to put his benefactors on the spot like that; it was an Otto-like move.

  51. 51
    gnomedad says:

    A sizable faction on the right still thinks Snowden is a hero, presumably because they think he embarrassed Obama. Bush kept us safe after 9/11 and only spied on terrorists.

  52. 52
    Redshirt says:

    @Hoodie: Interesting take. It’s possible – we did stuff like that with the USSR. I forget the specifics, but I recently read that we fed tech info about a pipeline to the Russians, who stole the data and then built the pipeline, which soon blew up because it was intentionally a bad design. This seriously hurt the USSR at the time and is believed to be a contributing factor to the fall of the country.

  53. 53
    Another Halocene Human says:

    Assange wasn’t “suddenly” a pervert–he’s always been a narcissistic, reckless fool. The issue is that in Australia, like the US, he got away with that shit despite all the bad feelings and anger and accusations, whereas in Sweden the authorities fucking take bodily autonomy seriously and now the bad boy has to answer a few questions. Dunno what he’s afraid of since I don’t know how likely a conviction is, it probably wouldn’t be much time, Swedish prison isn’t that scary, and at least you’d know when you’re getting out, but I guess being a felon would make it harder to be a citizen of the world flitting about the globe. Whatever, man can’t take responsibility for his actions. Look at how he used Manning.

    I think the leaked cables were a damn good thing, no matter what the US State Dept thinks. As for the battlefield stuff, it was probably really important. Remember, this was a war where US journalists’ access has been very much “managed”. That was the real lesson of Viet Nam, not “don’t get into deadend colonial adventures in the first place”. But dumping everything without any discretion was reckless in the extreme. So typical of this guy. He doesn’t give a shit who gets hurt.

    Oh, and his best buddy was tattling on him to the FBI? Perfect judge of character here. The subtext of their communications was pretty much “I love you as long as you keep kissing my ass”.

    Narcissistic. Personality. Disorder. Steve Jobs is the most famous example but in my experience most people who have it are users who flame out at a much lower station in life.

  54. 54
    Another Halocene Human says:

    Note to “liberal” heroes (DSK, Assange): don’t rape people and you won’t get called in for police questioning.

    Wow, was that really all that hard?

    Don’t rape people.

    Just because she was passed out and not punching you in the eye doesn’t mean it wasn’t rape. Also. Too.

  55. 55
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @amk:

    It’s all buncha libertarian claptrap with amateurish production value.

    ISWYDT.

  56. 56
    muddy says:

    How does anyone know that the statement even came from Snowden in the first place? He has not surfaced in all of this, or spoken publicly (anymore). My friend said yesterday that Snowden could be Putin’s prisoner for all we know.

  57. 57
    Another Halocene Human says:

    I gotta hand it to Putin:

    President Putin had said that while Moscow “never hands over anybody anywhere”, Mr Snowden could only stay on condition that he stopped damaging Russia’s “American partners” with his leaks.

    (BBC)

    He is one wily son of a gun.

  58. 58
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Another Halocene Human: The accusations against Assange may be 100% truthful, but when aspersions are cast on the character of someone who is embarrassing the government — any government — I think it makes sense to be skeptical.

  59. 59
    Elie says:

    @Mandalay:

    Honestly, Mandalay… are you THAT naive that you would actually think that its a bad thing for the US to do to a country that would have the potential of harboring someone that has damaged its interests (or is accused of damaging those interests).

    We live in a world where interdependence and influence mean something. The US is a big dog and it doesnt always wield its power using weapons or obvious threats. Some of your chronies were saing nya nya the other day about how the US got shown up as powerless and an embarrassment internationally. Well you got corrected and Correa got checked. Biden did not whisper sweet nothings to Correa and I am sure he spelled out consequences in words he would clearly understand. I don’t think that the US need apologize for that.

    What — you would like a different outcome? If so, tell me why…

  60. 60
    different-church-lady says:

    @muddy: How do we know Snowden even existed in the first place? All we have is one photo and a bunch of obscure overseas communiques. He might be a fictional creation of the NSA in order to distract from the true evil they are doing.

  61. 61

    @Mandalay: You make is sound like a bad thing that the US would be pressuring other nations to return a wanted fugitive. No government is going to allow you to break its laws and let you walk away scot free.

    You may sympathize with him, you may find his actions justifiable, but the man is alleged to have broken several laws. He should return to stand trial and face his peers. If they feel as you do, he will be acquitted.

    The only thing that Snowden should be doing at this point is negotiating his return and incarceration conditions.

  62. 62
    Elie says:

    Snowden is boxed in. He will be in the US within weeks, is my guess. No exit strategy and I can’t see a way for him to get to a country which might give him asylum without his passport. Assange may find himself in a bit of a pickle soon also.

    Narcissism and covert activities requiring stealth and judgement are not compatible. Going back to the “We Steal Secrets” movie — Assange was foiled and continues to demonstrate (as does Snowden) a failure to see the obvious: that notoriety and managing secrets are like matter and anti-matter — you just get an explosion.

  63. 63
    Eric U. says:

    I plan to fight government intrusion into my privacy by going on the interwebs and attacking anyone that doesn’t post non-stop about the government intrusion into my privacy.

    Between the Patriot act and a long string of SCOTUS decisions, our government now has the legal basis to act like a totalitarian dictatorship. The fact that not even Cheney took full advantage of that is beside the point. It is going to be a long fight to get things back to normal, if we can. I happen to think that electing people like Obama is a good way to make small steps in this direction. GG and Snowden seem to see that damaging Obama is a good way to improve liberty, and I think they are idiots. So the libertarians will have to forgive me if I make fun of them, GG and Snowden for what they have been doing.

  64. 64
    Craig says:

    “Stateless,” my ass. You’ve got a state, Eddie: come on home! I mean, you have been charged with a crime and we expect you to answer in a court of law and all…but we don’t really have “outlawry” any more.

  65. 65
    Mandalay says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    You make is sound like a bad thing that the US would be pressuring other nations to return a wanted fugitive.

    How? I did not depict it as a good or a bad thing, and it was entirely to be expected, as you stated.

    I was pointing out that posters here have been blaming Assange (and Snowden himself) for Snowden’s problems with Ecuador. And nobody even considered any other possibility for the remarkable U-turn in Ecuador’s position, even though the evidence was right under their noses.

    Assange was irrelevant, yet posters here insisted on making him out as the guy who caused Snowden’s problems with Ecuador.

  66. 66
    LAC says:

    @Mandalay: Yeah, when common sense rears its ugly head, you bravely natter on instead.

    The word “snowden” barely gets typed out before you come a-running to the computer to type out this week’ goalpost changing excuse as why he is still a hero.

    Newsflash = much like ice water in hell, Snowden may request asylum, but that don’t mean he gets it. Countries looking to do what is in their best interest? Clutch the pearls and find me a couch to faint on!

  67. 67
    Mandalay says:

    @Elie: Honestly,

    Mandalay… are you THAT naive that you would actually think that its a bad thing for the US to do to a country that would have the potential of harboring someone that has damaged its interests (or is accused of damaging those interests).

    I never said it was a bad thing, and I am the only poster on the board who is pointing out that it was US pressure that caused Correa to make a U-turn in Ecuador’s position on Snowden. It was nothing to do with Assange.

    It is the gossip columnists in this thread who insist on focusing on the personality of Snowden, and the personality of Assange, who are naive.

  68. 68
    amk says:

    @Mandalay: It was ecuador itself that said assange was meddling in the process and was he was one, if not the main, reason that they are pulling their offer.

    Go read some news websites instead of just living in libertarian/firebagger bubble.

  69. 69
    Mandalay says:

    @LAC: How’s your misogyny therapy working out for ya?

  70. 70
    Mandalay says:

    @amk:

    It was ecuador itself that said assange was meddling in the process and was he was one, if not the main, reason that they are pulling their offer.

    What! You mean Ecuador chose not to say that the reason they changed their policy was because of US pressure? How totally amazing!

    Grow up.

  71. 71
    LAC says:

    @Mandalay: Great since my gender change at birth 50 years ago. How’s your asshat know-it-all aversion therapy working? Still avoiding looking at mirrors?

  72. 72
    Elie says:

    @Mandalay:

    How is focusing on their very flawed personalities that lead to the fuck ups they have generated, naive? I think that its a central and perhaps the defining characteristic and imprint on this whole thing. If one or both could keep their mouths shut, they might get what they say they want — a real world discussion about transparency about private information. But the problem is that they are conflicted about what they want. They also want notoriety and I would say, they want that more, so they can’t control their need to talk about themselves and be the center of the universe — even a negative universe.

  73. 73
    amk says:

    @Mandalay:

    Yeah, now ecuador is the villain. The fact that most of the nations the spyboy applied for asylum said the whole process, which wiki admitted was initiated by them, was fucked up also would mean they are also the villains, right? No wonder most countries think assange and his ilk are nuts.

    I guess you are too stupid to face the reality and facts. Keep fucking that chicken.

  74. 74
    Mnemosyne says:

    @WaynersT:

    I recently saw We Steal Secrets. It’s pretty good, and definitely a fuller picture of those sexual assaults. One of the women is interviewed and her charges seem really credible.

    As far as I can tell, what Assange is accused of doing is that he started having sex with a woman while she was still asleep (twice — that is, two different women accused him of doing it). This behavior is generally considered assholish by women, but it’s perfectly legal in most countries as long as the woman isn’t actually incapacitated (drunk/drugged etc.)

    The problem for Assange is that he did this in one of the few countries where that behavior is illegal.

  75. 75
    WaynersT says:

    The sex assault charges against Assange sound pretty legitimate. He intentionally broke the condom in order to impregnate the two women. Apparently he has done this a lot and might have as many as 5 kids across the globe. They were not charging him with rape, but he refused to get an AIDS test and that’s why it ended up with the police. The theory is that Assange believes he needs to spread his superior seed as far and as wide as possible. That seems to fit right in with a narcissistic personality.

  76. 76
    ruemara says:

    I have to admit, Snowden has really schooled me on the domestic spying program. Just witnessing this clever spy’s failure to do anything right but steal documents has shaken me to the core on trusting government. Now I believe government should end all contracts and take back over all top level security clearance duties. Not sure how one can end a multi-billion dollar industry in Griftopia, but thanks to Snowden and Assange’s clown show, I completely agree that it should end.

  77. 77
    Ted & Hellen says:

    Moreover, I’m generally suspicious when someone who is causing problems for a government is suddenly (and conveniently) discovered to be a pervert..But whether or not Assange is guilty of sexual assault, the people who entrust government secrets to him don’t seem to fare so well, and he doesn’t appear competent enough to handle travel arrangements, let alone classified information. Future leakers beware.

    Talking out both sides of your mouth doesn’t camouflage the fact that you are disgusting pig engaging in the lowest of smear tactics against Snowden and Assange. And all while tonguing the perineum of Barack and George’s police state.

    Fuck you, Betty. Your schtick is rank.

  78. 78
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mandalay:

    I never said it was a bad thing, and I am the only poster on the board who is pointing out that it was US pressure that caused Correa to make a U-turn in Ecuador’s position on Snowden. It was nothing to do with Assange.

    Ecuador is saying differently. I’m guessing that it’s a lot from Column A and a little bit from Column B — Ecuador was getting pressure from the US, plus Assange was acting like an imperious asshole, and that helped tip the scales.

    But I know that doesn’t fit your image of St. Julian the Persecuted, who is always right in every thought, action, and deed, so of course you’re unwilling to accept that he might have had the slightest influence in Ecuador’s decision.

  79. 79
    Mandalay says:

    @amk:

    I guess you are too stupid to face the reality and facts.

    I am the only one here who is pointing out the reality, and even after the evidence has been put right under your nose that Ecuador changed its policy due to US pressure, you still wanted to insist that it was because of Assange.

    And yet you want to dish out lectures on facing reality?

  80. 80
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    You’re a tool.

  81. 81
    signifyingmnky says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I’d be more skeptical if Assange actually faced his charges in Sweden, instead of risking the lives of others to satisfy his own reputation and embarrassing his host country politically while relying on their embassy for refuge. That would be an actual sacrifice for his alleged principles. Why should I entertains the words of a man who imagines himself a purveyor of truth when he won’t answer charges against himself so others might know the truth about him?

    Neither Assange or the people he pulls onto his web are heroes in my book.

  82. 82
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Svensker:

    Well, I see that the messenger is dead. Jesus.

    Oh yes…but don’t despair. Betty has made it clear that she sees him both dead and alive, and doesn’t mean to imply anything whatsoever about the dead messenger’s message.

    No siree.

  83. 83
    amk says:

    @Mandalay: Yup, because you’re living in a point-the-fingers-at-others libertarian/firebbagger bubble. As I said, go read some real news that is being reported in the real world. We’re done.

  84. 84
    Elie says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Have to correct this. Per “We Steal Secrets”, what got Assange in trouble was that he burst the condom he was wearing in both instances, exposing the women to HIV and other veneral diseases. He refused to get tested for HIV so these women could go about their lives. THAT is what was illegal in Sweden. These women were not sex workers but volunteers who admire him and WikiLeaks. They would have kept his identity secret but he refused to get tested. The movie also hinted, but didn’t fully come out and say it but that Assange liked “siring” new progeny and that spreading his seed around was a belief of his and that this was his rationale for busting the condom — all very odd but not unheard of. Again, all he had to do was get tested for HIV but he refused…

  85. 85
    kc says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    S

    “Don’t rape people”

    Dead Breitbart!

  86. 86
    Elie says:

    @WaynersT:

    Yeah — agree (I didn’t see your comment before I posted my own similar facts downstring)

  87. 87
    Mandalay says:

    @Elie:

    How is focusing on their very flawed personalities that lead to the fuck ups they have generated, naive?

    Because by continually focusing on their personalities you overlook other more important issues.

    It is blindlingly obvious that the reason Ecuador changed its position on Snowden was due to US pressure. Yet nobody here considers that, and insist that the flawed personalities of Snowden and Assange are the reason for all of Snowden’s problems.

    Snowden would certainly be wise to STFU completely (though some quotes being attributed to him are dubious), but I doubt that he would be in a significantly different situation right now even if he had said the right thing at every opportunity.

    Snowden’s words – good or bad – don’t count for much against the diplomatic, political and economic pressure that the US is imposing.

  88. 88
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Elie:

    Ah, okay. Still, I’m pretty sure that deliberately breaking a condom is not illegal in most countries, though it is in Sweden, so I’m guessing this is something Assange has done before.

  89. 89
    Ted & Hellen says:

    Because by continually focusing on their personalities you overlook other more important issues.

    That is the entire purpose of these kinds of threads and comments.

    It’s bizarre.

  90. 90
    Elie says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    To be fair, I may not have gotten that completely right about breaking the condom as being illegal. I think it may be better to say that his refusal to get tested for HIV may have been the central issue.

  91. 91
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Fuck YOU, you oozing ass-carbuncle.

  92. 92
    Mandalay says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Dunno what he’s afraid of since I don’t know how likely a conviction is, it probably wouldn’t be much time, Swedish prison isn’t that scary

    He may or may not be afraid about going to prison in Sweden.

    But his bigger concern is that once he sets foot on Swedish soil the US will try to get him extradited, which is also what would happen if he left the Ecuadorian Embassy in London and set foot on British soil.

  93. 93
    Herbal Infusion Bagger says:

    The sex assault charges against Assange sound pretty legitimate. He intentionally broke the condom in order to impregnate the two women. Apparently he has done this a lot and might have as many as 5 kids across the globe.

    Hey, genetic code is just information, and information wants to be free!

  94. 94
    Betty Cracker says:

    @signifyingmnky: He’s not a hero in my book either, but there have been cases where governments manufacture evidence against people to destroy their credibility and silence them. I’m not saying that’s what happened with Assange, but that’s why I don’t automatically hold his bid for asylum as evidence that he’s a coward or a criminal. We know governments do that type of shit.

  95. 95
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Betty Cracker: It’s nothing personal, Betty. He’s just pro-rape.

  96. 96
    A Humble Lurker says:

    @Bobby Thomson:
    And that’s only for starters!

  97. 97
    amk says:

    @Betty Cracker: If you let pigs in, they’re gonna stink up the place.

  98. 98
    Socoolsofresh says:

    I see we brewed a fresh new thread for some more Snowden bashing. Jeez, for someone who leaked a ‘nothingburger’, you guys sure are angry about him. The NSA approves of your work and cognitive dissonance!

  99. 99
    ChrisNYC says:

    @Shakezula: What it’s supposed to do is put him as the adversary to Obama. Obama is persecuting him! It’s supposed to raise his status. He’s punching up. Snowden and Wiki know it’s bull. Advocacy wise, I think it’s a dumb move because it always looks weak to go toddling off after the guy on the other side saying, “Hey give me attention!” (Liberals do this incessantly with the GOP.) Woulda been smarter to just have an agenda and stick to it.

  100. 100
    Mandalay says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    for someone who leaked a ‘nothingburger’, you guys sure are angry about him

    The hatred here for Assange and Snowden is quite remarkable.

    The NSA approves of your work and cognitive dissonance!

    The cognitive dissonance on display here is also quite remarkable.

  101. 101
    different-church-lady says:

    @Elie:

    If one or both could keep their mouths shut, they might get what they say they want — a real world discussion about transparency about private information.

    They can’t risk it — if they stopped grandstanding, people might see it for what it is rather than what they want people to think it is.

  102. 102
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    And fuck you in the ass dry, you smarmy pustulant cervical wart.

  103. 103
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen: So, basically your objection is she’s tonguing the wrong perineums?

  104. 104
    Father Ted says:

    @Yastreblyansky:

    re: Americans use the singular form when referring to the United States, while those who speak the Queen’s English use “are.”

    I’m British, raised on the Queen’s English, and “are” would sound odd to me. This – with real examples from the BBC News web site – is how the U.S. is referred to in the Queen’s English:

    The United States says it is increasing the scope and scale of military support for opposition forces in Syria…,

    The United States has confirmed the sale of nearly $30bn (£19.5bn) of fighter jets to Saudi Arabia…

    The United States has denied it sought to delay negotiations for political reasons, saying it had genuine problems with the draft as written…

    If I heard the U.S. referred to in the plural my first thought would be either it’s a non native speaker influenced by his or her native tongue – e.g. French uses “Les États-Unis SONT…(rather than les États-Unis est)”, and Italian says “Gli Stati Uniti SONO… (not gli Stati Uniti è) – or someone simply made a typo.

  105. 105
    Cassidy says:

    @different-church-lady: I think it’s problem is that she’s a woman. It’ll be interesting to see how Mistermix or Cole handle this thread. I got a short timeout for suggesting it should commit suicide. I’d like to think suggesting Betty be anally raped is worse.

  106. 106
    burnspbesq says:

    @Ramiah Ariya:

    Amazingly enough, some humans have the ability to process more than one idea simultaneously. It is possible to believe that the United States does far too much electronic surveillance without proper regard to Fourth Amendment principles, and to also believe that Snowden and Greenwald appear to be felons and should be prosecuted for their alleged offenses.

  107. 107
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @burnspbesq: Greenwald is a felon because…?

  108. 108
    burnspbesq says:

    @the Conster:

    Now imagine what an actual libertarian-run country would look like

    The Democratic Republic of Congo?

  109. 109
    burnspbesq says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    18 U.S.C. 793(c).

    Aiding and abetting violations of 18 U.S.C. 641.

    18 U.S.C. 371.

    He’s not a felon until a jury says he is. But the indictment writes itself.

  110. 110
    Chris T. says:

    As an aside, I decided long ago to pluralize (pluralise? :D) companies because then the pronoun “they” works right:

    Koch Industries is evil! They do X and Y!

    vs

    Koch Industries are evil! They do X and Y!

    The second one just plain works.

  111. 111
    burnspbesq says:

    I’m not unsympathetic to arguments that 18 U.S.C. 793(c) is unconstitutional as applied to media defendants. I think Greenwald would make a fine test case.

  112. 112
    Cacti says:

    @burnspbesq:

    He’s not a felon until a jury says he is. But the indictment writes itself.

    There’s probably enough there that you could also throw in conspiracy to violate 18 USC 793.

  113. 113
    burnspbesq says:

    @Chris T.:

    I’ll bet you also treat “data” as though it were singular.

    Heretic! Burn him!

  114. 114
    burnspbesq says:

    @Cacti:

    371 is the conspiracy statute.

  115. 115
    Mathias says:

    wow. and the psuedo-liberals at balloon juice keep demonstrating their fealty to transparency and restraining the surveillance state. also, too: betty’s jihad against snowden continues, this time highlighting a non-american verb conjugation in a released statement. what the fuck is wrong with you people? the level of pro-government, anti-transparency comments and attitudes on this site are indistinguishable from any run-of-the-mill right wing rag. democratic voters, it turns out, are just as vile pieces of shit as their republican counterparts. when bush ran a less intrusive surveillance program, democrats were outraged. but now that darling democrat obama vouches for this level of intrusion, all you sheep are tickled to death with it. hell, let’s prosecute greenwald, too, since we’ve never liked his ass. journalist? ha. marcuse predicted roughly fifty years ago that america would be the first country to go fascist via a democratic vote. congratulations. keep goose-stepping in line with our phony two-party system and make marcuse’s nightmare a reality.

  116. 116
    Cacti says:

    @Mathias:

    Hmmm…

    sheep, fascist, jihad, pseudo-liberals

    Oops…you missed “authoritarian”. No buzzword bingo for you.

  117. 117
    sharl says:

    @burnspbesq: Did you see this thing Billmon put together, regarding possible applicability of Section 798 of the Espionage Act? IANAL (and I don’t think Billmon is either), but he is renowned in blogging-world as someone who really does his homework.

    Note that there are repeats in the post of the identical link (bit.ly/1cATB1K) to a 1973 Columbia Law Review article (80pp, .pdf).

    Billmon is no NSA fan, he’s just noting that there is a “nuclear option” there if the government chooses to use it. There would be severe consequences, as Billmon notes.

    ETA: Forgot to note that Billmon’s post applies to Greenwald and The Guardian, not to Snowden.

  118. 118
    Elie says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Yep — kinda like a reverse black hole — at the center is no mass or gravity, just nothing…

  119. 119
    Eric U. says:

    I’m trying to figure out what Assange has done to the U.S. that could be prosecuted without some fairly novel interpretation of U.S. law. Yes, it appears that he is a jerk.

  120. 120
    burnspbesq says:

    @sharl:

    By its terms, 798 would also be in play. Applying 798 to a media defendant raises the same First Amendment issues as 793(c).

    I also note that Snowden was not initially charged under 798.

  121. 121
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Cassidy:

    I’d like to think suggesting Betty be anally raped is worse.

    Hmmm…I was responding to Betty, who directed a “fuck you” my way. Since I am male and have no vagina I am assuming she was suggesting I be anally fucked. And thus I have been waiting for you to cry out in my defense. Alas…

    Is it the addition of my “dry” that has so offended you?

    I love that you got a time out. If only your poor family could have a permanent time out from your reign of PTSD-induced terror.

  122. 122
    LAC says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Just as long as you and Mandalay are here to prop up Baby Jesus Martin Luther Snowden and his brave flight bravely handing out classified information and heroically filling out asylum papers to any country that might take him away from fearlessly facing the charges filed against him by the US government and bravely issuing statements through wikileaks. Hope you two have picked out the right color ticker tape for his parade.

  123. 123
    burnspbesq says:

    @Eric U.:

    The theory is that Assange conspired with Manning (371), aided and abetted Manning’s theft of government property (641), and received classified information without authorization 793(c)).

  124. 124
    LAC says:

    @Cacti: Did anyone else fall asleep after the word “jihad”?

  125. 125
    burnspbesq says:

    Hey everybody, let’s all sing the Ted & Helen Song:

    I would while away the hours,
    Conversin’ with the flowers,
    Consultin’ with the rain …

  126. 126
    Cacti says:

    @LAC:

    Did anyone else fall asleep after the word “jihad”?

    It’s a fascist jihad. Is that like when the wingers say islamofascism? There’s about a thimble’s worth of difference between them and the emo progs these days.

  127. 127
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Shakezula: Based on the fact that they both got life imprisonment without parole, I’d say (assuming conviction) for espionage and theft of government property that Mr. Snowden ought to be looking at maybe 5-10 years.

    And considering the damage that both Ames and Hanssen did, and the fact that they did it for money, it’s a shame that the death penalty wasn’t available for their crimes. Real people who were working for this country died because of them, and they knew that would happen.

  128. 128
    Elie says:

    I think that the issue of privacy and the limits of the security and surveillance state are important. A good advocate or advocates for this discussion would be great. Why can’t some of you see that you were conned and these guys (Snowden, Assange and Greenwald), actually detract from the importance of the issue with their clownshow antics. I think that Snowden clearly broke the law and its likely Assange did as well. Not so sure about Greenwald because of the whole press thing, but he may have seriously damaged his reputation — at least that is a risk as this runs from melodrama to farce. They are all twinned around this issue as tightly as they can wind it, hoping to confer its importance on themselves. What a sad joke and what a disservice they have done to the issue and their very dogged supporters who keep wanting them to be heroes for them. My question to you guys is why do you need them to be your heroes? Why not advocate for the issue which remains important instead of constantly tieing it to people who are actually “throwing shade” on it? Are you enamored of the “outlaw” thing or what exactly?

  129. 129
    Anna in PDX says:

    @different-church-lady: The date is very british sounding. But the plural verb for the United States makes it sound to me like he is trying to sound Jeffersonian and referencing the way the Founders referred to the country in the Constitution and Declaration. I really don’t think it means what you all think it means.

    However, given the date which does sound british, maybe that was tacked on.

    I don’t really know what to think about Snowden or his peregrinations around the globe, but I just don’t see that the plural use of States is anything but trying to sound like a Founder, which makes sense given his underlying narrative that the NSA procedures are counter to our Constitutional rights. Which is a conversation that would be more interesting than yet another one about Snowden, but as many have pointed out here, this is at least partly his fault for the way he chose to go about this.

  130. 130
    NR says:

    @Comrade Dread:

    He should return to stand trial and face his peers. If they feel as you do, he will be acquitted.

    Not if the jury is full of people like you, who would love to see Snowden put in jail for the rest of his life for the heinous crime of making Obama look bad.

  131. 131
    Cacti says:

    @NR:

    Not if the jury is full of people like you, who would love to see Snowden put in jail for the rest of his life for the heinous crime of making Obama look bad.

    So what you’re saying is, he shouldn’t have to face a jury if there is a possibility of conviction.

    Civil disobedience for the special snowflake generation.

  132. 132
    Elie says:

    @NR:

    To make Obama look bad all three of the stooges would have to stop behaving like clowns. Maybe if we have Moe stop pocking the other two in the eyes we could see how this makes Obama look bad.

    NR, you are lame but usually not this lame…

  133. 133
    NR says:

    @burnspbesq: You guys’ obsession with putting Obama’s critics on the left in jail is fucking creepy. What’s next? Brownshirt meetings?

  134. 134
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @burnspbesq: So, you agree with Peter King! Nice one! So not only are you cool with eradicating the 4th amendment, lets try and seriously erode the 1st one too! You are all sorts of scary.

  135. 135
    NR says:

    @Cacti:

    So what you’re saying is

    What I’m saying is exactly what I said.

    All the straw men around here are getting old.

  136. 136
    Anna in PDX says:

    @Craig: He wants to be a pirate!

  137. 137
    Elie says:

    @NR:

    Man, you gotta do a little better than that coming late on the thread and all. The only one flailing strawmen is you… try being a little less obvious trying to get the swirl going around yourself. Right now you are boring us.

  138. 138
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Mathias: These guys are as tribalist as they come.

  139. 139
    NR says:

    @Elie: Oh, good god. What’s next from you? “I know you are, but what am I?”

  140. 140
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Elie: I love your funhouse mirror of reality. No one was talking about NSA spying recently, now as a result of these leaks, congress might try and do something about it. As for you, I see a lot of messenger bashing but not a lot of discussion on NSA tactics and privacy, so it seems more like you are making it about them than the issue.

  141. 141
    Mandalay says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Amazingly enough, some humans have the ability to process more than one idea simultaneously.

    Maybe so, but not so much on this thread.

  142. 142
    NR says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Yep. For these people, it’s simple: Obama über alles.

  143. 143
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Cacti: I’m pretty sure you guys are closer to the wingers these days, than so called emoprogs. I love all your little cute names you give for anyone who ain’t on the same page as you! Everyone else is so unreasonable! Why can’t more people shut up and clap louder! I know, lets come up with some more names for them, haha we are so witty..

  144. 144
    Cacti says:

    @NR:

    What I’m saying is exactly what I said.

    Your honor, it is deeply unfair that my client be charged with crimes for his activities that violated multiple criminal statutes.

  145. 145
    NR says:

    @Cacti: Do you guys ever get tired of making shit up?

    Does your fundamental dishonesty even bother you? Like even a quiet nagging at the back of your conscience? I’m guessing no.

  146. 146
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: In the same way that “No Labels” is a label, and “The No-Name Restaurant” is a name for a restaurant, the tribe of “No Tribe” is still a tribe.

  147. 147
    Cassidy says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Well at least it was an adult this time. Usually you’re an advocate for the anal rape of children. I still think you should put a gun in your mouth and do the right thing.

  148. 148
    Elie says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Might help if you read my comments which frequently cite the importance and relevance of the privacy issues and setting limits on the surveillance state. But hey, you gotta do what you gotta do and that is to set up your little strawman argument that all of us are just bashing your innocent heroes instead of pointing out Moe, Larry and Curly. THEY do a disservice to the issue. And YOU do by contantly promoting them as tangible symbols. Dont you get that????

  149. 149
    Cacti says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I love all your little cute names you give for anyone who ain’t on the same page as you! Everyone else is so unreasonable!

    Fascist, authoritarian, pseudo-liberal, obots, lynch mob…

    Words incessantly used by you and yours to express your frustration at the lack of adoration for a common criminal.

  150. 150
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Ted & Hellen: You started the “fuck yous” — with zero provocation from me. But please don’t think I was making an oblique reference to your parents’ sadomasochistic proclivities when I responded in kind; as far as I’m concerned, that stuff is strictly between you and your therapist.

  151. 151
    Mandalay says:

    @Elie:

    A good advocate or advocates for this discussion would be great. Why can’t some of you see that you were conned and these guys (Snowden, Assange and Greenwald), actually detract from the importance of the issue with their clownshow antics.

    There would be little discussion at all right now were it not for Snowden’s revelations. If nothing else, Snowden has at least shamed some in Congress and the media to finally show some spine.

  152. 152
    Cacti says:

    @NR:

    Do you guys ever get tired of making shit up?

    Says the person who just said Snowden’s only crime is making Obama look bad.

    Yep, that’s his only crime. If you just ignore the numerous felonies he committed along the way.

  153. 153
    LAC says:

    @NR: waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa…..you are a thorny crown and nail gun away from being in an off off off broadway production of “Jesus Christ Superstar” Is this all that is left of the Snowden hero brigade? Two weeks ago, you were screaming and wagging your dicks in people’s faces. Now, reality and facts set in and all of sudden your gerkins are not gettting the respect you think they are entitled to and we are back to imaginary “jack booted thugs and brown shirts”.

    Yeah, that is “strawman” shit…

  154. 154
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Elie: Oh sure, I bet you talk tons about privacy issues, especially here! So, are you saying the bill the senate is trying to pass didn’t happen as a result of these leaks? I guess it’s more a result due to your guys reasonable discussions about it haha.

    All I’ve been saying that there is way more demonizing the messenger than talk on privacy issues. Don’t really care too much about any of those dudes. You guys are the people focusing so hard on them.

  155. 155
    NR says:

    @Cacti:

    Says the person who just said Snowden’s only crime is making Obama look bad.

    Never said it was his only crime. Just the only one that you guys care about.

  156. 156

    @Father Ted: You may well be right! I wrongly assumed the UK habit of construing collectives (like sports teams) as plurals could extend to nouns that actually are plural-marked (like States).

  157. 157
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Cacti: I maybe only use authoritarian, and as a descriptor, but obviously these names hurt, so I guess like a cornered dog you must continue to lash out.

  158. 158
    different-church-lady says:

    @NR:

    Never said it was his only crime. Just the only one that you guys care about.

    Interesting. Let’s talk about his other crimes, shall we?

  159. 159
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Nothing like using trash talk to complain about others using trash talk.

  160. 160
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @LAC: I think your guys version of facts is soon approaching ‘Saddam had WMD’s’ levels of cognitive dissonance. Commence name spewing now!

  161. 161
    Elie says:

    @Mandalay:

    Okay — full stop. Yes, he did a service in that way. Now, change the subject from how cool he is cause he has since undermined the original service by appearing more and more buffoon like by the day. HE is not this issue. He was a temporary catalyst for the issue but those of us who care about the issue are distressed and repulsed as we see his need to be the center of this. He is also quite plainly a patriot but indeed may be a traitor, distributing US tactics and secrets unrelated to the issue of surveillance of its citizens but to surveillance of our foes – something the NSA SHOULD BE DOING!

    Oh nevermind — Many people not only on this thread but on many over the last weeks have said this to you in several different ways.

  162. 162
    Cacti says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I maybe only use authoritarian, and as a descriptor

    You say, right before calling me a “cornered dog” in your next sentence.

    Our emo progs are without a trace of irony.

  163. 163
    Cacti says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Nothing like using trash talk to complain about others using trash talk.

    I know, right?

    You should stop calling people names you miserable fucker!

  164. 164
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Near as I can tell Snowden is the one waving a vial around and talking about yellowcake.

  165. 165
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Cacti: Sorry, you are not a cornered dog, you are a Cacti.

  166. 166
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: Of course he was, and as I imagine for you, right from the beginning. Question, are Democratic officials capable of lying, or is that only a Republican trait?

  167. 167
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Betty Cracker: It does make sense to be skeptical. But I also tend to think that the Swedish government is capable of running Sweden, and that the correct forum for determining whether or not Swedish laws were violated in Sweden is a Swedish court room.

    Ironically enough, the original complaint was leaked to the press, about which Mr. Assange complained bitterly (which is even more ironic) and no matter how liberal the laws in Sweden are regarding rape–something about which a lot of Assange’s supporters around these parts made a lot of hay–from the complaint, it’s pretty obvious that just about any western jurisdiction would have a prima facie case for rape against him. Certainly here in Oklahoma (no liberal rape laws here for sure) someone who’d been accused under those circumstances would be looking at serious jail time.

  168. 168
    Cacti says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I think your guys version of facts is soon approaching ‘Saddam had WMD’s’ levels of cognitive dissonance.

    Ed “The Terminal” Snowden purloined classified information, fled the country with it, and distributed it to third parties, including foreign nationals.

    All of those are crimes. So which one are you saying your hero didn’t commit?

  169. 169
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: All people are capable of lying.

    That doesn’t mean I go into every situation in my life assuming everyone is lying. Or that every person belonging to a certain category is lying.

  170. 170
    Mandalay says:

    @sharl:

    Forgot to note that billmon’s post applies to Greenwald and The Guardian

    That looks like a big nothingbuger to me. How can the Guardian, a British publication, be prosecuted? And, as billmon notes, how the hell could the Guardian be prosecuted without prosecuting the Washington Post as well?

    IANAL, but billmon isn’t either. He should stick to blogging.

  171. 171
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Cacti: Again, never said he was a hero. Also was talking about the info he actually leaked which around here people make out to seem like its been totally debunked. So did he take the info, then fuck around with it to make it look worse, and then leak it?

  172. 172
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Mnemosyne: That behavior, initiating sexual intercourse with a sleeping woman, is against the law in many jurisdictions. A sleeping person cannot affirmatively consent. In Oklahoma, it’s black letter law, as it is in the military.
    Just last week the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces refused to hear the appeal of a USAF Airman who was convicted of rape under Article 120.

    (i) That the accused engaged in a sexual act with another person, who is of any age; and

    (ii) That the other person was substantially incapacitated;

    (iii) That the other person was substantially incapable of appraising the nature of the sexual act;

    (iv) That the other person was substantially incapable of declining participation in the sexual act; or

    (v) That the other person was substantially incapable of communicating unwillingness to engage in the sexual act.

    All of those have been taken in military courts-martial to include a person who was asleep. In fact, even if the person wakes up and then verbally consents, the crime has already been committed, which was the case in the court-martial under appeal. The Airman got 8 years confinement, reduction, total forfeitures, and a Dishonorable discharge. The Convening Authority reduced the confinement to five years. The accused must register as a sex offender as well.

  173. 173
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Mathias:

    This site is as right-wing as it ever was.

    You might say the Republican Party left them.

  174. 174
    Robin G. says:

    @different-church-lady: Knew him in middle and high school. He’s real.

  175. 175
    Soonergrunt says:

    @different-church-lady: That’s because you’re not Glenn Greenwald, or one of his hamsters.

  176. 176
    different-church-lady says:

    @Robin G.: How do I know you’re real?

  177. 177
    LAC says:

    @Socoolsofresh: You know what? I stand corrected. Turns out that Snowden did leak information vital to know:

    http://www.deccanherald.com/co.....g-its.html

    So yay for us!!

    I would call you a name, but your poster name makes a mockery of what you bring to the board.

  178. 178
    Heliopause says:

    But whether or not Assange is guilty of sexual assault, the people who entrust government secrets to him don’t seem to fare so well

    Could you tell us who you are talking about? Bradley Manning was arrested because he blabbed to Adrian Lamo, and Snowden hasn’t “entrusted” Wikileaks with any secrets that he didn’t hand off to several other journalists, not to mention he’s faring very well for someone who voluntarily outed himself as the world’s biggest leaker.

  179. 179
    ellennelle says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    gawd, i sure hope this means this creep just got banished.

  180. 180
    PeterJ says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Ah, okay. Still, I’m pretty sure that deliberately breaking a condom is not illegal in most countries, though it is in Sweden, so I’m guessing this is something Assange has done before.

    Deliberately breaking a condom is NOT illegal in Sweden either.

    The woman gave consent to have sex on the condition that he wore a condom. By breaking the condom, she no longer gave consent.

    Assange also started to have sex with one of the two women when she was sleeping the morning after. Same thing here, she didn’t give her consent at that time.

    (This means that if a Swedish man every is woken by his wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend going down on him, he could then report her or him for the same crime as Assange is wanted for. Doesn’t matter that they are in a relationship.)

  181. 181
    Socoolsofresh says:

    Greenwald says another bombshell will be published later this week. Already you guys think it’s a nothingburger. Also, surprised you guys haven’t organized a call your congressman campaign to send CIA into Brazil to bag him.

  182. 182
    Robin G. says:

    @different-church-lady: Today’s as good a day as any for an existential crisis.

  183. 183
  184. 184
    Cacti says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Greenwald says another bombshell will be published later this week. Already you guys think it’s a nothingburger. Also, surprised you guys haven’t organized a call your congressman campaign to send CIA into Brazil to bag him.

    Speaking of Brazil, they’ve denied Snowden’s asylum request.

    I blame Obama.

  185. 185
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @LAC: Of course, you take the side of the establishment. Wouldn’t expect anything less from you.

  186. 186
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Greenwald says another bombshell will be published later this week. Already you guys think it’s a nothingburger.

    Hmmm… what do you think it will be?

  187. 187
    El Cid says:

    @Mandalay: Although the Guardian’s parent company is based in the UK, the corporate entity for which Greenwald I believe says he is employed is their US-incorporated spinoff.

    However, in general all the world must obey US law because we prefer them to.

  188. 188
    burnspbesq says:

    @Elie:

    Okay — full stop. Yes, he did a service in that way

    Yup. And that can be given due consideration in the pre-sentencing report.

  189. 189
    Cacti says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Of course, you take the side of the establishment. Wouldn’t expect anything less from you.

    And you take the side of an accused felon in the midst of an unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.

    Too bad nobody wants him.

  190. 190
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: I guess we will have to see. All I know is that here there will be increased calls for GG head while absolution for NSA, private spying corporate contractors, and the Democratic establishment.

  191. 191
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Cacti: Not sure if nobody wants him, or fear US reprisals. Oh right, that can’t be the case for you! Keep the focus on the messenger!

  192. 192
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Socoolsofresh:
    “Greenwald says another bombshell will be published later this week. Already you guys think it’s a nothingburger.”
    Given that it’s Greenwald saying it, and given his history of wildly over-blown claims that turned out to be nothingburgers, especially in the context of the current goings-on, I’d say that’s pretty safe ground to be on. But as even broken clocks are right twice a day and even blind squirrels find nuts, so too may it yet be with Mr. Greenwald.

    “Also, surprised you guys haven’t organized a call your congressman campaign to send CIA into Brazil to bag him.” Given the aforementioned nothingburgers, why in the hell would the US Government want to harm him? Anything he gloms onto at this point is already seriously degraded in import for many people just by his association. Hell, one could say that he’s done a wonderful job of damage mitigation just by appending himself to it.

  193. 193
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: People saying stupid shit on one side of an argument doesn’t make the other side of the argument correct.

  194. 194
    burnspbesq says:

    @Mandalay:

    The guys who wrote the 1973 Columbia Law Review article to which Billmon linked are most definitely lawyers. They think the legislative history of Section 798 clearly indicates that it was expressly intended to pick up media defendants. You might want to give a second’s consideration to taking their views somewhat seriously.

    As far as prosecuting Guardian News and Media Limited is concerned, that would certainly be an interesting test of the limits of jurisdiction in the Internet age. No opinion either way.

  195. 195
    Cacti says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Not sure if nobody wants him, or fear US reprisals. Oh right, that can’t be the case for you! Keep the focus on the messenger!

    How dastardly of the US government to not want to send roses and chocolates to countries that would harbor a fugitive.

  196. 196
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Soonergrunt: Not sure what your definition of nothingburger is, because again, seems like the rest of the world and quite a few Americans are pretty upset about these nothingburgers. I think its this site and LGF are maybe the only sites to come to a consensus about this being no big deal. But hey, its everyone else that is being unreasonable about this, never you guys.

  197. 197
    Socoolsofresh says:

    So, is everyone all cool with the extensive contracting out of surveillance info and secrets to private surveillance a la Haliburton, or Blackwater for spying?

  198. 198
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Socoolsofresh: I don’t know if everyone else is being unreasonable. I just know that I don’t particularly give a fuck about “everyone else(‘s)” opinion.

  199. 199
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    …quite a few Americans are pretty upset about these nothingburgers.

    Quite a few Americans get pretty upset about the results of American Idol. That doesn’t make them fuckin’ patriots.

    The way it seems to be shaping up is there’s an overreach that technically is legal, but seems potentially invasive. It probably needs some severe curtailing.

    That is a far far cry from the way Snowden and Greenwald are framing what they present. It’s not a nothing-burger, but it ain’t the 300 grams of protein and vitamins Snowald say it is either.

    And we can’t have a sane conversation about it because everyone has decided that trash talk and picking sides is more important than getting to the complicated truth.

  200. 200
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Not sure what your definition of nothingburger is, because again, seems like the rest of the world and quite a few Americans are pretty upset about these nothingburgers.

    I will explain this to you again for approximately the one millionth time, with no expectation that you will actually understand what I’m saying:

    The allegations of domestic spying without a warrant by the US are a nothing burger.

    The allegations of foreign spying in foreign countries by the US are pretty substantial.

    But I guess you’re in the camp that says the US shouldn’t be allowed to gather intelligence on foreign countries since you have your panties in a twist about how horrible and evil it is for us to spy on foreign citizens in foreign countries.

  201. 201
    Cacti says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    So, is everyone all cool with the extensive contracting out of surveillance info and secrets to private surveillance a la Haliburton, or Blackwater for spying?

    Well, since you’ve told us that the government can’t be trusted and neither can private contractors, what would you suggest then? Philosopher kings?

  202. 202
    different-church-lady says:

    Even dad doesn’t trust Assange:

    Snowden’s father has expressed concern that WikiLeaks supporters who have been helping his son seek asylum may not have his best interests at heart.

  203. 203
    LAC says:

    @Socoolsofresh: If what you mean by “establishment” are people who deal in reality and are not walking single cell organisms sprouting off paranoid bullshit like someone whose poster name sounds like a douche ad, then yeah, you are right.

  204. 204
    different-church-lady says:

    @Cacti:

    …what would you suggest then? Philosopher kings?

    Libertarian bloggers. Natch.

  205. 205
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Soonergrunt: I see.

  206. 206
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The allegations of domestic spying without a warrant by the US are a nothing burger.

    And again, this is just a lie. No matter how many times you repeat it.
    A warrant covering millions of people is not a legal warrant. It is mass surveillance. That is a legal opinion offered by the FISC itself. Which we would have never seen without this issue being raised. The SCOTUS has not had a chance to rule on the constitutionality of this mass surveillance because the govt has fought tooth and nail to deny standing and keep it out of the courts.
    Now, again, due to this issue several lawsuits have been brought by peoples who can legitimately claim standing and damage.
    So fuck you and your lying “nothingburger” bullshit.

  207. 207
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Mnemosyne: What was the Verizon trawl then? I’m pretty sure that was domestic.

  208. 208
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    If I hadn’t been reading this site so long it would surprise me too. Even mainstream sites like the WP have plenty of commenters who care more about civil liberties in America then about Swedish sexual consent laws or last minute travel plans, commenters who don’t swallow and parrot every smear and distraction served up by establishment monkeys.

    Here it’s all “Law and Order,” “Hang em High,” and endless speculation based on half-truths and obvious lies.

    Same as it ever was.

    ( excepting, of course, Levenson’s marvelous science posts, which seem to bring the really smart folk out of hiding… best reason to keep coming back. )

  209. 209
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Not really, but that’s not what Snowden and Greenwald have been going on about. They’ve been pimping their unfounded claims of overblown claims of illegal behavior by the NSA, not the fact that if everything were working the way it should be, that Snowden would still be a low level rent-a-cop in a hut in the CIA parking lot.

    And I’ll note that your sudden advocacy of this particular angle, a completely peripheral one, has a whiff of desperation to it. It also makes Snowden’s character and competence a central issue.

  210. 210
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Seems to me that it’s Greenwald and Assange they want calling the shots. They’ve been allowing the two of them to do so for a few years now…And, ironically, accusing dissenters of being authoritarians.

  211. 211
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: Never said they were patriots, just that they seem to care. All I’m saying the people who seem to not care is actually quite a small group, while here it seems to be consensus.

  212. 212
    Corner Stone says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I think its this site and LGF are maybe the only sites to come to a consensus about this being no big deal.

    And, hey, any time you can be associated with a winner like Charles Johnson…well, shit, you’ve got to celebrate that!

  213. 213
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Cacti: Never said any of that, but you keep on pretending I did.

  214. 214
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    What was the Verizon trawl then? I’m pretty sure that was domestic.

    They had a warrant. You can complain that the warrants are overly broad, or that the FISA court grants them without really reviewing them, but there is a difference between “the government is looking at everything without getting a warrant!” which was the initial claim, and “warrants are overly broad.”

  215. 215
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @LAC: There we go, I knew you had it in you!

  216. 216
    Soonergrunt says:

    Shorter Joey Giraud: People who are not me on a site I don’t control have opinions I don’t agree with and say things I don’t like, and that makes me sad.

  217. 217
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Soonergrunt: Nope, I believe the other stuff is valid, I just wanted to maybe expand the conversation, but who am I fooling.

  218. 218
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Heliopause: Assange & Co. made a big show of riding to Snowden’s rescue, and Snowden is now trapped in the Moscow airport. If they’re facilitating his communications with the outside world (and they certainly strive to give that impression), they suck at it.

    The way WikiLeaks chose to distribute Manning’s leaked material may very possibly contribute to Manning’s never seeing daylight again. If I were in possession of classified documents I thought should be published or dealing with the fallout of that publication through another source, WikiLeaks is the last fucking organization I’d call for assistance.

  219. 219
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: I’m a little hard pressed to figure out how you think it’s “consensus” when so many people right here in this thread are agreeing with you.

    The fuckin’ persecution complex is just nuts. Grow up and fight honestly, or piss off. Because you ain’t doing your cause any favors by working refs who aren’t even here.

  220. 220
    LAC says:

    @Socoolsofresh: No, it’s we do not care the way you want us to care. You want to not only throw the baby out with the bath water, but let it crawl out into highway traffic. Any attempt to get you to address the story without “the gubbermint is always wrong!” blinders on goes back to “you’re being establishment meanies:” As stated before, people have spent considerable time posting to you and two weeks later, you are still hacking up the same talking points like Rainman.

  221. 221
    Elie says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    What’s with the “peek a boo” behavior? Why the tease? This is the kind of thing that is just repulsive because most people take leaking government secrets fairly seriously, and it just looks like — again, he is just hyping for effect — again making the theater of it more important than the content. Ok GG — show us what you have and lets talk about IT — NOT YOU or SNOWDEN!
    And again, if he is releasing information about our surveillance of our foes or our allies, he is way way off base from what he said he was sharing originally and the purpose of that sharing…

  222. 222
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Mnemosyne: Pretty sure from the get go the Verizon story was about the leaked warrant to trawl all Verizon calls. You just made that up that GG et al were saying it was without a warrant. I believe the document leaked was a FISA court ruling. So you are just trying to make blame on GG for overblowing something that only you overblew. Nice technique. Make up a lie about what someone else said then chastise them for said made up lie.

  223. 223
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mnemosyne: To put a finer point on it, what seems to be becoming apparent is that the NSA scoops up vast quantities of stuff (the exact nature of the stuff is still unclear), but doesn’t actually “look” at it until warrants are issued.

    Which is plenty troubling all by itself. But isn’t the same as “THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO DESTROY PRIVACY!!!”

  224. 224
    LAC says:

    @Soonergrunt: shorter Joey Giraud: whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!

  225. 225
    Corner Stone says:

    I think maybe I’ve been wrong about all this…I mean, if DiFi thinks it’s all good then…
    Feinstein’s Support for N.S.A. Defies Liberal Critics and Repute
    The beauty of this story is the people who have been chosen to give admiring quotes. Susan Collins and Joe Lieberman.

  226. 226
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: President Nader would have never let this happen.

  227. 227
  228. 228
    Elie says:

    @Cacti:

    LOL — Yes — I vote for Philosopher Kings

  229. 229
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    They had a warrant. You can complain that the warrants are overly broad, or that the FISA court grants them without really reviewing them,

    Not even sure what one says to someone who thinks this is a sound defense.

  230. 230
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @LAC: Yes, cause they aren’t really being discussed. Also, this site was way more skeptical about government power back in 2006. Hmm, I wonder what changed? Certainly not the way government conducts surveillance and rubber stamps the Patriot Act.

  231. 231
    Cacti says:

    @different-church-lady:

    President Nader benevolent dictator for life Greenwald would have never let this happen.

    Fix’t.

  232. 232
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: BTW, I have some overdue commendation for you. The night CNET botched the “Congressman admits spying happens without warrants” story you posted it, but then expressed some skepticism (or at least were willing to entertain reservations about its accuracy).

    That’s why I continue to view you as merely a complete pain in the ass rather than a troll.

  233. 233
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Sooner, that is one of the lamest things you’ve written lately.

  234. 234
    Mandalay says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    not sure what your definition of nothingburger is

    It really doesn’t matter. The important thing for many here is to diminish the importance of what Snowden revealed by any means possible. The attacks come in many forms….
    – Guilt by association. (“If Greenwald/Assange are involved then…..”.)
    – By character assassination (“high school dropout”, “pole dancer girlfriend”, “violated his oath”, “overpaid”, “He’s no Rosa Parks”….)
    – By dismissal (“nothingburger”, “nothing new”, “I already knew all this”,…)
    – By feigning boredom (“Yawn!”, “Booorrrring!”)
    – By accusing him of cowardice (“He should have stayed…”)

    For those with an agenda against Snowden, anything – absolutely anything – is preferable to actually discussing the information he has revealed. You see it happen here on every single thread on Snowden.

  235. 235
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Elie: Ah so you prefer the wikileaks, dump everything at once and have the ‘right’ people comb over it technique of leaking.

  236. 236
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: Two party system always and forever!

  237. 237
    Cacti says:

    @Mandalay:

    By character assassination (“high school dropout”, “pole dancer girlfriend”, “violated his oath”

    One of these is a crime, two are not, and yet you lump the three of them together.

    Just the sort of intellectual honesty one could expect from Team Edward.

  238. 238
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay: I notice there’s an item missing from your list: “Evaluate what was revealed and weigh it against the claims being made about what was revealed.”

    Can’t imagine why you’d leave that one off.

  239. 239
    Joey Giraud says:

    @LAC:

    Ha ha.. you’re funny.

    Really, if I wanted to dive into this moshpit of abuse, I would and could dish out the trash as well as anyone here. Get a rush of adreneline, get all red in the eyes, make clever little putdowns and pat myself on the back in self-appreciation.

    It wouldn’t change the fact that the old-timers here are the same ones who bought into all the Iraq War lies and stil swallow and parrot bullshit.

    Or the fact that there are more then enough really smart lurkers who pop up from time to time saying really smart things to make returning worthwhile.

  240. 240
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Ah, you’ve understood my joke! You’re coming along nicely.

  241. 241
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Not me, in case you were wondering.

  242. 242
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Mandalay: Oh I know, its entertaining watching the frothing, cognitive dissonance and twisted logic used to justify their defense. Anything except, you got me, I’m just a Democratic cheerleader.

  243. 243
    Mandalay says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Shorter Joey Giraud: People who are not me on a site I don’t control have opinions I don’t agree with and say things I don’t like, and that makes me sad.

    That wasn’t what he posted at all, and you know it.

  244. 244
    Cacti says:

    I wonder how Ed’s enjoying the Moscow airport chow.

  245. 245
    El Cid says:

    @different-church-lady: I don’t see how this is a sensible point at all. If this were a physical medium such as letters, I cannot imagine anyone suggesting that they would be entirely comfortable in their privacy as long as the government assured them though yes, it either had the capability of or the currently functioning process of scanning every piece of mail you received in and out and stored these scans in their own facilities and thus could read them any time it wanted but promised it only looked at them under very carefully defined conditions.

  246. 246
    Elie says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Its the tease — the fan dance and what it reveals about him.

    If I have something serious to share, I don’t necessarily reveal it all right away – I get that… but I don’t necessarily hype and tease about it beforehand either. Why? To me it conveys smugness and arrogance. It also conveys a lack of thought about the potential consequences to real people or US interests and a lack of caring about that. I know I know — you don’t really like or care about this country, so its all good to you. I did not know that about GG until this situation but I will never think of him as an American with its interests and ours as his fellow citizens, at the center. Not sure what he is about but emotionally and in every real way he seems a resident of the transit zone at some airport.

    I don’t have a preference for WikiLeaks to do anything — It will disappear itself eventually. Not that we don’t need leaks and this insight. We do. But run by serious adults not juveniles with personality disorders.

    Oh and may I add, I look forward with relish to the hearings where Booz Allen will testify. Next to these dolts, or as bad as these dolts, are their and other contractors who we entrusted to do their jobs competently. I hope they are drawn and quartered and I will be cheering.

  247. 247
    Corner Stone says:

    @different-church-lady: He didn’t leave that off the list. It’s right there and it’s on display all over these threads.

  248. 248
    different-church-lady says:

    @El Cid: I agree. Seems fishy from a lot of angles, and I haven’t worked them all out in my head yet. Also seems counter-productive: “We’re going to take the entire haystack back to the lab and look for the needles later.”

    In the meantime we got polemicists masquerading as truth tellers, and they’ve got the upper hand in the battle of the narratives. It’s a war nobody can win, which is fine with them, because the point is to fight, not to fix things.

  249. 249
    Mandalay says:

    @different-church-lady:

    To put a finer point on it, what seems to be becoming apparent is that the NSA scoops up vast quantities of stuff (the exact nature of the stuff is still unclear)

    The government should address the fact that “the exact nature of the stuff is still unclear”, even though most here are obviously not remotely concerned.

  250. 250
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Cacti: And while I’ll note that all three are true* I’m not even remotely certain about how having a pole dancer for a girl friend would be character assassination. That’s like saying that “somebody won a minor lottery” is character assassination.

    *and while we’re on the subject–how is it that making truthful statements about a person is character assassination? That’s the kind of complaint you find from butthurt wingnuts.

  251. 251
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I don’t think the cognitive failings on display here really have anything to do with pro-Obama or anti-Obama at all. It’s not a partisan thing.

    It’s just simple authoritarianism. A lot of the old timers really believe that people should know thier place, fall in line, etc…

  252. 252
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay: First good point you’ve made all day. But it’s tempered by the fact that neither the government nor the anti-government sides want us to be clear about what the stuff is. They both have their own reasons for obfuscating it.

  253. 253
    Mandalay says:

    @different-church-lady:

    I notice there’s an item missing from your list: “Evaluate what was revealed and weigh it against the claims being made about what was revealed.”

    Can’t imagine why you’d leave that one off.

    No, I explicitly addressed that: “anything – absolutely anything – is preferable to actually discussing the information he has revealed“.

    Go to any Snowden thread on BJ, including this one, if you are in any doubt.

  254. 254
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Elie: Here we go, it’s due to the lack of patriotism. Whistleblowers want to show the bad shit being done in the worlds most powerful nation, they must not like this country. GG, just wants the government to stick to ideals laid out in the constitution, to you he is treasonous. GG is highlighting the erosion of the 4th amemdment, and potentially the 1st, if burnspbesq and his ilk had their way, but to you this shows lack of patriotism.

  255. 255
    Cacti says:

    Special Ed continues in his two specialties: ignorance of the law, and nailing himself to the cross.

    “Although I am convicted of nothing,” Snowden writes, “It has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.”

    No you nitwit, not having a passport doesn’t make you a stateless person. The nearest US embassy will happily arrange for you to be escorted home if you get tired of airport borscht.

    So, what his complaint amounts to is: Waaaaah, the State Department won’t issue me travel documents to assist my flight to avoid prosecution.

  256. 256
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Joey Giraud: “It wouldn’t change the fact that the old-timers here are the same ones who bought into all the Iraq War lies and stil swallow and parrot bullshit.”
    Some of us didn’t buy into the Iraq war lies. I saw through them from the beginning, and I also felt that even if some of them turned out to be true, none of them rose to a cause for war. In any event, it turns out that very little if any of what has been revealed so far is illegal behavior by the government as was advertised. And even if it was, it doesn’t rise to the level of the war crimes of Cheney, Rumsfeld, and company–which is not to say that it wouldn’t merit punishment if it were illegal–which it isn’t.

    See, it’s entirely possible to turn ones skepticism about one bunch on another bunch, and be right both times. As I have done here.

  257. 257
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay: What I see is that every time the discussion comes around to what was revealed, there are shrieks whenever someone dares comes to a different conclusion than what Snowald said they revealed.

    Neither side is fighting honestly.

  258. 258
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    and while we’re on the subject–how is it that making truthful statements about a person is character assassination?

    Al Gore is fat.

  259. 259
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Joey Giraud: Ya, you might be right. It’s just different colors, but same game. It makes sense.

  260. 260
    Corner Stone says:

    @Elie:

    Not that we don’t need leaks and this insight. We do. But run by serious adults not juveniles with personality disorders.

    Perfectly, perfectly, perfectly sums up this charade here at BJ.

  261. 261
    burnspbesq says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Not even sure what one says to someone who thinks this is a sound defense.

    Try “That’s correct, but …”

  262. 262
    Elie says:

    @Corner Stone:

    You talking to me?

    Don’t talk to me.

  263. 263
    LAC says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Contrary to your rose tinted memories of this site, healthy cynicism and questioning authority continue to this date. But, unlike you, people do not feel the need to engage in full on paranoia about evil government surveillance that the facts have not borne out. That’s what adults do.

    From all that has been discussed, the Obama administration has been using the Patriot Act lawfully. Now, I get the debate about this odious law, but you will need to get off your dead one and vote for folks that want to repeal it in Congress. That is realistic approach to the situation: activism that extends beyond your daily ball scratching on this site. You and Mandalay getting the case of Mondays because Snowden’s ego driven busload of farts has not panned out and is in park in Moscow is beyond tiresome. Of course, I think it is just a need to rubber stamp the great Greenwald with you two.

  264. 264
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Cassidy:

    I still think you should put a gun in your mouth and do the right thing.

    There’s that out of control violent streak again. Killing’s always just a breath away with you, isn’t it.

    I wonder if this will bring you another time out.

  265. 265
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: The discussion rarely comes to what was leaked. Part of that is due to most of these threads being initialized on attacking the messenger and never really discussion on the surveillance state.

  266. 266
    NR says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Not sure what your definition of nothingburger is

    That’s easy. For these people, a nothingburger is anything and everything that comes to light while Obama is in the White House.

  267. 267
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Joey Giraud: Everybody who disagrees is an authoritarian. Which complaint is always the same around here. Nice gig you’ve got there. You get to feel all put upon and superior, and you get to do it without actually thinking about or examining what those who disagree with you are actually saying, so you save time while you’re at it.
    Nicely done!

  268. 268
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Ok, you didn’t support the war or swallow the lies.

    I have a close friend who says the same thing. Except that I remember his comments from 2003 quite differently.

    Water under the bridge.

  269. 269
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    with zero provocation from me

    Your post, like most of your smarmy cracker drivel, is provocation enough.

  270. 270
    Elie says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Yes, to me his behavior is revelling in the find and the exposure rather than demonstrating any concern about people who might be at risk from these revelations. A serious and mature person — yes, a patriot, would not be chortling with glee about this, even as he thought it might be necessary. That is called M-A-T-U-R-I-T-Y.

  271. 271
    LAC says:

    @Joey Giraud: “Really, if I wanted to dive into this moshpit of abuse, I would and could dish out the trash as well as anyone here. Get a rush of adreneline, get all red in the eyes, make clever little putdowns and pat myself on the back in self-appreciation.

    It wouldn’t change the fact that the old-timers here are the same ones who bought into all the Iraq War lies and stil swallow and parrot bullshit.

    Or the fact that there are more then enough really smart lurkers who pop up from time to time saying really smart things to make returning worthwhile.”

    Well, thank you for not dishing it out…. LOL!

  272. 272
    Mandalay says:

    @Elie:

    If I have something serious to share, I don’t necessarily reveal it all right away – I get that… but I don’t necessarily hype and tease about it beforehand either.

    I don’t even agree with the delayed release. The way GG and the Guardian dribbled out the story was pretty pathetic.

    On the one hand they bragged that the information they had was showstopping, but then they (implicitly) showed that it was insufficiently important to release it all immediately, presumably to increase newspaper sales and mouse clicks.

    Well you can’t have it both ways. I doubt that Snowden had any say on that lame approach, and maybe GG didn’t either, but the Guardian did its own credibility no favors with the slow release.

  273. 273
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    …and never really discussion on the surveillance state.

    See? Right there: how the hell are we supposed to have a “discussion” about things when you’ve already come to your conclusion? We live in a surveillance state, and that’s it. What’s left to discuss?

  274. 274
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Certainly here in Oklahoma

    You are perfectly situated, right in the shit ridden sphincter of conservatardism, Killer.

  275. 275
    Corner Stone says:

    @Elie: Actually, I was talking about you. Why would anyone consider talking to you? You’re an incompetent buffoon and a liar. You try your damnedest to hang the “hero” bullshit on people and those you disagree with you claim they hate their country and enjoy seeing it damaged. Although that damage is always ill-defined, with no back up evidence and shifts as you need it to from moment to moment.
    So, no, I previously was not talking to you. Now, I am talking to you. If you don’t like it, you have remedies.

  276. 276
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Everybody who disagrees is an authoritarian.

    That’s not true at all. In fact, the opposite is more true.

    Authoritarians hate dissent. You guys hate Snowden, Assange, etc… ( the list could get long. )

    Authoritarians trust authority, like Washington Post stories and anonymous government sources.

    And Authoritarians love the military, and tend to sign up too.

    ( they also use pie filters a lot, as they can’t deal with too many contrary voices and have a hard time managing their emotions. )

  277. 277
    Joey Giraud says:

    @LAC:

    Believe me LAC, you’re welcome.

    Quite welcome.

  278. 278
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay:

    I doubt that Snowden had any say on that lame approach…

    so far, so good

    …and maybe GG didn’t either…

    Except he participated in it this morning.

  279. 279
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Joey Giraud: And how was that character assassination? It was a stupid and childish diversionary tactic, but it wasn’t exactly false. It also did not address any of his claims in any way, just as the fact that Snowden is a high school drop out who was dating a pole dancer when he broke his oath that he took to get the job for which he as extremely overpaid does nothing to address the claims that he has made about the NSA. The claims that he has made about the NSA have mostly turned out to be a bunch of overhyped bullshit, and the one that hasn’t–that NSA spies on other countries– turns out to be NSA’s fucking mission statement. That’s the biggest knock against his character there is. If you want to see who the most effective assassin of Edward Snowden’s character is, you need only look here.

  280. 280
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Mandalay: That’s why it was a shorter. Are you familiar with all internet traditions?

  281. 281
    NR says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    The claims that he has made about the NSA have mostly turned out to be a bunch of overhyped bullshit

    Except they haven’t, outside of the minds of the most brain-dead Obots.

  282. 282
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    It also makes Snowden’s character and competence a central issue.

    Authoritarian, militarist asshole KIller cleanup please.

  283. 283
    LAC says:

    @NR: What has he revealed then? If you can be bothered to answer that without taking your head out of your ass – I know you are busy with that right now.

  284. 284
    Keith G says:

    Teamism….It’s a shame that so much of the conversation devolves into teamism.

  285. 285
    Corner Stone says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    The claims that he has made about the NSA have mostly turned out to be a bunch of overhyped bullshit

    This is a long way from being decided, except by a number of people here and at LGF.
    For every Charles Johnson there is an equal number of analysts who dispute his “nothingburger” claims.

  286. 286
    NR says:

    @LAC: Well when you ask like that, it makes it so easy to say “fuck you.”

  287. 287
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: Is right to privacy an outdated concept? Should press freedoms be curtailed? Is the current government being overzealous on whistleblowers or is it justified? Should state secrets be outsourced to private contractors? Should the US tut-tut at other countries for doing the same things they are doing? What will the impact be on European-US relations? Should Europe build its own internet infrastructure so as to not have its traffic routed through US servers? Should the internet become balkanized so that nations can provide a level of privacy to their citizens?

    There is just a couple, but ya, what else needs to be discussed?

  288. 288
    Cassidy says:

    @Ted & Hellen: I have no interest in getting violent. I just want you to do the right thing for once.

  289. 289
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    If you’re saying that character assassination is in the eye of the beholder, well who can argue with that?

    Then I suppose it’s like porn; you know it when you see it.

    I really think you’re picking at the point. You know pole-dancing is pretty low-brow and degrading in most people’s minds. Bringing up a salacious, irrelevant fact about an associate of the person in question is certainly “guilt by association,” even if pole dancing isn’t against the law.

  290. 290
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith G: What are the teams?

  291. 291
    LAC says:

    @NR: Oh, fabulous…so the answer is nothing..except to those countries he is trying to move to. Thank you for clearing that up for us.

  292. 292
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Joey Giraud: Your friend sounds like a gullible dumb-ass. He probably believes all of this current nonsense as well.

  293. 293
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @NR:

    Ignore the side show. Focus on the question: What has he revealed then?

  294. 294
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    lol

    douche

  295. 295
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    The claims that he has made about the NSA have mostly turned out to be a bunch of overhyped bullshit

    I keep reading that claim here, but the reporting out there just doesn’t support it.

    It’s one of those “facts” that appears from nowhere and people think it’s true because other people think it’s true.

  296. 296
    Mandalay says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    and while we’re on the subject–how is it that making truthful statements about a person is character assassination? That’s the kind of complaint you find from butthurt wingnuts.

    You have to be kidding. You don’t see character assassination when right wingers talk about Barack Hussein Obama? You don’t see character assassination when linking Obama to Rev. Wright? You don’t see character assassination when linking Obama to Bill Ayers?

    All truthful statements, so therefore you don’t see any character assasssination. Words fail me.

  297. 297
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Corner Stone: And there are quite a few people who think Obama was born in Kenya.

  298. 298
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Mandalay: Aka, it’s only okay if I do it.

  299. 299
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    My friend sounds just like you and others here; ready to argue all night long, knows how to mimic the language of critical thinking, has a bit of a reading comprehension issue and feels insecure because he didn’t finish college like his mom wanted him to.

    I love the guy because he’s always up for conversation, he is generally curious about the world, and he’s had my back on many occasions.

  300. 300
    LAC says:

    @Joey Giraud: “I love the guy because he’s always up for conversation, he is generally curious about the world, and he’s had my back on many occasions”

    And he makes a mean pesto and his name is YOU…right?

  301. 301
    Corner Stone says:

    @Soonergrunt: That’s a nice try. Well, actually it’s a pretty pathetic attempt but wevs.
    There is no comparison to the fact that our govt has used illegal warrants to scoop up every call by millions of people, and the BS birther nonsense.
    Arguing something like that puts you in the same category as Elie or Capt Mnemo.
    Enjoy.

  302. 302
    Joey Giraud says:

    @LAC:

    I was going to add that I’ve repayed the loyalty many times, but I guess there’s not much point.

    LAC, you’re not as funny with this one.

  303. 303
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Mandalay:

    You have to be kidding. You don’t see character assassination when right wingers talk about Barack Hussein Obama? You don’t see character assassination when linking Obama to Rev. Wright? You don’t see character assassination when linking Obama to Bill Ayers?

    His middle name is not, and never was an issue to anybody whose opinion actually matters to me or to anybody worthy of my respect. His pastor was right about this country for the most part. If you want to impugn Obama’s character on that front, you could properly go after him for throwing Rev. Wright under the bus. As far as Bill Ayers, his association with a man who never committed any violent crimes, who assisted the police to prevent further violence by his associates, and who made something of himself–a man who spent a considerable part of his later life (when Obama actually knew him) working very hard to make his community a better place–is again, only a negative for people who weren’t going to ever support Obama anyway.

    All truthful statements, so therefore you don’t see any character assassination. Words fail me.

    Logic fails you. Words? You’ve got plenty of those.

  304. 304
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I think Sooner is angry about this one, and he tends to make incoherent statements when he’s angry.

    As we all do. Another reason to stay out of the mosh pit during the bass solo.

  305. 305
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Joey Giraud: you’re really not worth the effort it would take to pie filter you, if I still used such a thing. You pretty much pie yourself, with the exact same claims of anybody who finds people on this site that doesn’t automatically agree with you. You all become one tiresome troll with the same claims and bitchy little comments. After a while you aren’t discernible from any of the others, and frankly aren’t worth the effort to discern you.

  306. 306
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Sooner, that’s pretty pathetic too. Get some sleep and try again later.

    I’ll jump in the moshpit with you when I feel like it, not a moment sooner.

  307. 307
    Heliopause says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Assange & Co. made a big show of riding to Snowden’s rescue,

    Once again, here’s how it went: Snowden stole top secret documents from a massive, technologically advanced, and vindictive surveillance bureaucracy. Then he went missing for a few weeks. Then he handed the documents over to several journalists. Then he told the world who he was, where he was, and what he’d done. But his “big mistake” was…

    We really have no idea what Wikileaks is doing other than attempting to aid the biggest leaker in world history, who voluntarily identified himself to the whole world, find asylum. It’s completely daft, needless to say, to judge the competence of individuals attempting to do things that are basically unprecedented, especially while Snowden remains (relatively) free.

    You realize how very, very silly your original post was, don’t you?

    The way WikiLeaks chose to distribute Manning’s leaked material may very possibly contribute to Manning’s never seeing daylight again.

    Again, this is just ridiculously silly. Manning chose to leak his material to Wikileaks because he wanted the whole world to know about it. He was busted because he blabbed about it.

    Charitably, I’ll say that your post is silly. It appears to be premised not on facts or logic but personal animus. Two functioning adults chose to leak the biggest secrets of the biggest power in world history, But their “big mistake” involves some guy holed up in an embassy in London. Very, very silly.

  308. 308
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone:

    There is no comparison to the fact that our govt has used illegal warrants to scoop up every call by millions of people…

    Of course there’s no comparison to that fact: such has not been proven as a fact.

  309. 309
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Heliopause:

    Once again, here’s how it went: Snowden contacted several journalists. Then Snowden stole top secret documents from a massive, technologically advanced, and vindictive surveillance bureaucracy. Then he went missing for a few weeks. Then he handed the documents over to the several journalists he’d contacted before stealing those documents. Then he told the world who he was, where he was, and what he’d done. But his “big mistake” was…

    FIFY

  310. 310
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh: Well, why don’t I go ahead and answer each question, even though you’ve posed them all rhetorically:

    It might be a more modern concept than you think. No, but neither should the be used as a shield for espionage. Each case is different. Probably not. That’s the game. My guess is minimal. That’s up to them. I’ve a feeling “balkanizing” the intertubes would not result in any practical difference from what happens now.

    Now, you wanna tell me your answers or should I just go with the rhetorical implications?

  311. 311
    Mandalay says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Except he participated in it this morning.

    Well I don’t know the specifics of what you are referring to (since you provided no link) but in any case “participation” does not equate to “setting policy”. Besides, I had explicitly stated that I didn’t know whether Greenwald was involved in setting the Guardian’s policy on information release. (My guess would be that his input in invited, but others determine the policy.)

    You say discussion here is impossible, yet one of the reasons for that is people like you decide to pick fights over something stupid and irrelevant, where your own assertions don’t stand scrutiny.

    The reality is that you are not interested in contributing to the discussion; you just want to spend your days pontificating, nitpicking and sneering at others from the sidelines.

  312. 312
    LAC says:

    @Joey Giraud: Sorry about that, Joey Bishop.

  313. 313
    Corner Stone says:

    @different-church-lady: Here’s the problem. Those who continue to argue that a warrant is legal when it includes millions of targets, have no grounding in reality.
    On its face, and declared so by the FISC itself in a previously secret ruling, it is unconstitutional.
    This would be as crazy as if an executive entering some kind of chamber and with no due process declaring someone worthy of execution. The people that could justify that are just as…crazy..as…this….oh.
    Hmmm.

  314. 314
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Heliopause:

    Silly is a nice way to put it.

    If it was one post it might be silly. Betty is getting into tendentious territory with this barrage.

  315. 315
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Corner Stone:

    There is no comparison to the fact that our govt has used illegal warrants to scoop up every call by millions of people, and the BS birther nonsense.

    You might not like the warrants, and I’ll even agree that it should be harder than it appears to be, but the fact that you don’t like them doesn’t make them any less legal than they are.
    As for a comparison between this and birtherism? The only real difference is that the birthers are slightly more spittle-flecked in their invocations of nonsense.

  316. 316
    Joey Giraud says:

    @LAC:

    Now *thats* funny.

    I do love the classics.

  317. 317
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: Well, all I was saying is I think those are all worthy discussions that could be their own thread or threads, instead of, is Snowden the worst, or is he THE WORST, which seems to be the main thread starter.

  318. 318
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Pretty sure from the get go the Verizon story was about the leaked warrant to trawl all Verizon calls. You just made that up that GG et al were saying it was without a warrant.

    Uh-huh. I would tell you to go back and read the original Guardian story, but you’ll have to find a cached version, because they quietly re-edited it to remove the original claim that the trawling was being done without a warrant.

    I find it so fascinating that the goalposts were moved from “warrantless gathering” to “FISA warrants suck” and you guys can’t even admit to yourselves that the story changed, because then St. Glenn the Infallible would be shown to be Not Quite Infallible instead.

  319. 319
    different-church-lady says:

    When it comes to Obama’s middle name, “Hussein” is a funny word.

  320. 320
    LAC says:

    @Joey Giraud: Oh, could you put a cork in it already, your highness? I don’t know how you got your mommy saving your third grade report cards as some evidence that you are now some gold standard of posting that the rest of us need to climb up to. How is the air up there in Mt. Your Ass?

  321. 321
    Corner Stone says:

    @Soonergrunt: At this point, you’re not really arguing with me, but with the FISC itself.

  322. 322
    Mandalay says:

    @Soonergrunt: Well that’s a grand defense of Obama but you’ve conventiently ignored my point entirely. The right constantly reminded people of truthful facts about Obama – his middle name, and his past association with Wright and Ayers – to assassinate his character.

    Yet you still insist that character assassination is not possible if the statement is truthful. Either you are incapable of rethinking your position, or you are just not very bright.

    Truthful statements can obviously be used to attack someone’s character. It is done all the fucking time. Jesus H. Christ.

  323. 323
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The Guardian is probably concerned about accuracy, in that an official claim of having warrents was made by some official, named or not.

    It’s not a very good claim, as others have noted, because a warrent is supposed to be specific, not applicable to the general populace.

  324. 324
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Joey Giraud:

    It wouldn’t change the fact that the old-timers here are the same ones who bought into all the Iraq War lies and stil swallow and parrot bullshit.

    I would try to blow your mind and point out that I knew Colin Powell lied to the UN, but that wouldn’t fit into your black-and-white world where Good People Are Always Right and Bad People Are Always Wrong, so you would just ignore it or accuse me of lying.

    Here’s a few facts from ZDNet about PRISM and how it’s used to spy on foreign governments. Feel free to ignore it as you have every other fact that doesn’t fit your preconceived notion that OMG THE GUBBMINT IS SPYING ON EVERYTHING I DO!1!

  325. 325
    Joey Giraud says:

    @LAC:

    Are you happy to reveal your insecurities and neurosis to people? I guess so.

    I’m pretty secure. Must suck to be you.

  326. 326
    Mnemosyne says:

    Also, too, from ZDNet:

    How did mainstream media get the NSA PRISM story so hopelessly wrong

    Yet another example of apologist, mainstream tech media oppressing the valiant Washington Post, amirite?

  327. 327
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Snowden the worst, or is he THE WORST,

    …is the flip side of “OBAMA IS THE WORST” or “THEY WANT TO DESTROY PRIVACY.” Neither one is worth a damn, and nobody is going to unilaterally disarm.

    Then again, maybe is Snowden stopped giving interviews and issuing statements we wouldn’t talk about him so damn much.

  328. 328
    Keith G says:

    @Corner Stone: Several.

    Those who seem to have a visceral need to defend Obama (as if something in their self esteem wilts when the President is criticized).

    There is a very small band who will criticize the President for saying rain is wet.

    There are those who support this President and most of his decisions and they understand that this human President can make mistakes.

    The first two groups can operate very similarly in the use of ad hominen, poising the well, and extreme choice arguments.

  329. 329
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Mandalay:

    Except that Obama had no choice in his name, and he wasn’t working hand-in-hand with either Ayers or Wright as Snowden has with both Greenwald and Assange. Greenwald was “advising” Snowden before Snowden got his job with Booz Allen, and WikiLeaks is writing Snowden’s press releases now.

  330. 330
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Joey Giraud:

    The Guardian is probably concerned about accuracy, in that an official claim of having warrents was made by some official, named or not.

    I love it when you guys do this. So the stories printed by the Washington Post and the Guardian are completely accurate when they say things you want to hear, but are totally inaccurate when they say things you don’t want to hear.

  331. 331
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Another “I knew better back then,” after-the-fact denial. Oh well, I wasn’t “taking names” back then, so I guess you’re “clean,” FWIW.

    But the reading comprehension thing; from your link, right in the subtitle: U.S. data is filtered out — albeit not always

    Oops, we messed up. Oldest dodge in the books.

  332. 332
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Mnemosyne: Right, as I said, the Verizon story originated from a leaked warrant decision by the FISA court right from the beginning. Only you have proof of some secret cached version of the story where GG exclaimed it was unwarranted then quietly switched it. I think the story came from the warrant document. Not GG said whatever, then fished for something that sort of backed up his claims. But hey, you have your reality.

  333. 333
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: I was talking about the part where the calls themselves are recorded or stored.

  334. 334
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I didn’t say that. I said the Guardian isn’t about to leave a phrase like “warrentless” in a story after an apparantly official claim of having a warrent was made.

    Blind trust or lack thereof, I leave that to the BJ regulars.

  335. 335
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Joey Giraud:

    Ah, yes, as I thought — couldn’t risk polluting your beautiful mind with facts by reading past the headline, could you? The headline contains a scary phrase, therefore everything in the story is exactly what you assume it is, no need to actually read it.

  336. 336
    Corner Stone says:

    “We want the conversation!” “We need leakers!”
    But! Only if they are appropriately mature and wear nice ties. Say, wonder what David Gergen is doing right about now?

  337. 337
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @different-church-lady: Nope, I think the original discussions I made were way less hyperbolic but if you want to flip them into referendum on Obama type thinking then good job.

    Oh right, the last few Cracker posts have just been about admonishing him for hanging out in a Russian airport. Never discussion on much else.

  338. 338
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay:

    Unfortunately, Eric, you’re gonna have to wait along with everybody else until our stories are published,” Greenwald said. “But I will say that there are vast programs of both domestic and international spying that the world will be shocked to learn about that the NSA has engaged in without any democratic accountability and that’s what’s driving our reporting.”

    GG knows how to do the tease.

    I’m gonna leave the rest of your comment alone, because what would be the point?

  339. 339
    Corner Stone says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    Greenwald was “advising” Snowden before Snowden got his job with Booz Allen

    That’s just a lie. GG is on record saying he had been contacted but had no idea who Snowden was or what he was capable of/had access to.

  340. 340
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Heliopause:

    We really have no idea what Wikileaks is doing other than attempting to aid the biggest leaker in world history…

    Maybe you’re not aware that Assange & Co. are trying to revive a damaged brand with self-promoting stunts ostensibly in the service of Snowden that have since backfired (much like Acme Corporation was always ready to assist valued customer Wile E. Coyote), but some of us can see that.

    Manning chose to leak his material to Wikileaks because he wanted the whole world to know about it. He was busted because he blabbed about it.

    Yes, but he is likely to go to jail forever at least in part because of online evidence (such as tweets from WikiLeaks) that supposedly prove he knew that the material he leaked would aid the enemy. You don’t have to take my very, very, very, very silly word for it: All you have to do is read the court record.

  341. 341
    different-church-lady says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I think the original discussions I made were way less hyperbolic…

    Sorry, I was making generalities, not accusing you directly of such.

  342. 342
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Well, since you can’t be bothered to actually read stories about what you claim to be so upset about:

    It also opens the possibility of communications made entirely within the US being collected without warrants.

    But, no, the Guardian never claimed the US was collecting information without warrants because shut up, that’s why!

  343. 343
    Corner Stone says:

    @different-church-lady: They are being stored. What do you think is happening to them?

  344. 344
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Oh I don’t know about that, Mn.

    They further back claims of widespread borderline illegal mass surveillance by Snowden

    and

    filtered as much U.S. persons only data out as possible

    The rest is a bunch of tech argle-bargle.

    I do enjoy the display of intellectual resentment you and others show when someone makes a clear, cogent and contrary statement.

    No, scratch that. I just feel sorry for you, and that’s never any fun.

  345. 345
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: Where is the proof of this “fact”?

  346. 346
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Do you ever wonder what such a leaker would look like?

    I wonder. Pretty sure the regulars here would be trashing Dan Ellsberg if the Intertubes had existed in the seventies.

  347. 347
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Joey Giraud: Well, if you are ever in possession of classified information that you hope to share with the world, please feel free to contact WikiLeaks for assistance against my tendentious advice.

  348. 348
    LAC says:

    @Joey Giraud: I don’t know about all that, but I do know that when people have to announce their security in self,their academic achievements, or their intellectual friendships, it’s because it isn’t obvious to anyone but themselves. And that is coming off of you like B.O.

  349. 349
    NR says:

    @Joey Giraud: If these people had been around in the Nixon era, Ellsberg would still be in jail today.

  350. 350
    Corner Stone says:

    @different-church-lady: The proof of the facility existing in Utah is not like a discussion surrounding Area 51. The Utah facility exists to store this data.

  351. 351
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    You know Betty, I probably would. But I would be a lot more surreptitous about it then Snowden was.

    But I doubt that will ever happen. Everytime I’ve come near a security clearance, I start thinking about the costs of being a “made man” and find other work.

  352. 352
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: You know that they are building a facility. You don’t know exactly what they are going to do with it.

    Assumptions are not facts.

  353. 353
    LAC says:

    @Corner Stone: And yet he opened up a encrypted link with Snowden because that is what we do with strangers that we do not know. And there is a penny at your feet that is worth more than Greenwald on record.

  354. 354
    Joey Giraud says:

    @LAC:

    Hmm. That’s an interesting take. You’re good at that projection thing.

  355. 355
    Corner Stone says:

    @Joey Giraud:

    Do you ever wonder what such a leaker would look like?

    Maybe Morgan Freeman?
    No. He was in jail as a convicted murderer. They’d slander his ass sideways to breakfast. Probably talk about his too close friendship with Andy. Maybe bring up that time he was in charge of the country and he let a big fucking rock hit it on his watch.
    Damn, this is hard.

  356. 356
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Joey Giraud: That’s good. You probably have a pet or potted plant that would miss you.

  357. 357
    Keith G says:

    @Joey Giraud:

    Pretty sure the regulars here would be trashing Dan Ellsberg if the Intertubes had existed in the seventies.

    Depends on the party and background of the president.

  358. 358
    LAC says:

    @Joey Giraud: awww, shucks, thanks. Go by a mirror and you are going to see someone much better at it than me. Or go ask your friend – since he has your back, he can spin you around to face the mirror.

  359. 359
    Corner Stone says:

    @different-church-lady: Maybe store the collected work of the BJ Recipe Exchange threads?
    This is ridiculous.

  360. 360
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Joey Giraud:

    I do enjoy the display of intellectual resentment you and others show when someone makes a clear, cogent and contrary statement.

    Please link to where you did that. So far, all I’ve seen is a bunch of goalpost-moving and handwaving about how you believe the things you want to believe in the WaPo and Guardian articles but don’t believe the things you don’t want to believe. Cherrypicking information to support your pre-determined beliefs does not magically create a clear, cogent and contrary statement.

  361. 361
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Not to mention the kids. Yeah.

    Nah, I’m not very important. It’s just a matter of privacy. I like mine.

    Well, I also think that our secrecy regime is *really* stupidly implemented, and I have enough stupid nonsense to deal with just to do the job. Then there’s all the extra rules and badges and having to watch what you say…

    ( associates have complained. I took their issues as a sign to stay away from that.. )

  362. 362
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Keith G:

    I understand why someone might think so, but remember these guys supported Bush too, at least at first.

    This isn’t a partisan impulse.

  363. 363
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Corner Stone:

    The country is in such a state of exhausted cynicism that it’s hard to imagine anyone with enough of a reputation for honesty and moral gravitas to get away with revealing uncomfortable truths.

    Where have you gone, Walter Cronkite? :)

  364. 364
    NR says:

    @LAC:

    Oh, fabulous…so the answer is nothing

    No, the answer is a lot. You just desperately want to pretend it’s nothing.

  365. 365
    Joey Giraud says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    all I’ve seen is a bunch of …

    And that is all you are likely to ever see.

    Regardless of what I say.

    I don’t “trust” these stories, I note the inclusion of weasel words, escape clauses and surprising ambiguities.

    I suspect you have difficulties with ambiguity and deceit. That’s alright, rigidly honest people often do.

  366. 366
    Mandalay says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    Except that Obama had no choice in his name, and he wasn’t working hand-in-hand with either Ayers or Wright

    That’s all completely true, but serves only to prove my point; the right used factual information about Obama to attack his character. The merits of those attacks are another matter, but irrelevant to the point that you can state truthful things about someone to attack their character, despite Sooner’s claim to the contrary.

    And both sides do it! Reminding voters about Romney’s garage elevator and his wife’s Olympic horse were thinly veiled attacks on Romney’s character.

  367. 367
    NR says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    Ignore the side show. Focus on the question: What has he revealed then?

    That the government is collecting data on millions of citizens, including: The numbers they call, the location that the call was made from, the location that the call was received at, and the time and date of each call.

    Also, in order for them to “go back and listen” when a call is deemed suspicious, the content of the calls must be saved.

    And finally, for calls to be deemed suspicious enough to listen to, there has to be something that does the flagging.

    The metadata is bad enough, because it tracks the who, where, and when of every call you make. But it goes even beyond that.

  368. 368
    Joey Giraud says:

    @NR:

    I agree. The storage requirements for phone metadata wouldn’t be that huge, but the conversations ( appropriately compressed, of course ) would require real data farms.

  369. 369
    Socoolsofresh says:

    @Mnemosyne: Haha you have been moving the goalposts so far we are now playing a different sport! Highlights include: Only white males care about privacy!, Trying to ignore phone surveillance and make it an internet only thing, Minorities care more about voting than privacy, Guardian, Washington Post articles have been thoroughly ‘debunked’, etc.

  370. 370
    Ted & Hellen says:

    The concentration camps were LEGAL under the Nazi government at the time.

    So really, I don’t get what the whole backlash was all about.

  371. 371
    Mandalay says:

    @Keith G:

    Depends on the party and background of the president.

    I had also thought that a couple of weeks ago, but not any more. I now think the truth is that most folks here truly don’t give a shit what the government does with regard to surveillance. They neither approve nor disapprove; it’s just irrelevant to them. Look at any BJ thread on the NSA or Snowden for the evidence of that lack of interest. (There are some posters with diverse but coherent views, but not many.)

    But I will concede that BJ has endless energy for going after Snowden, Assange and Greenwald! The actual information that they have revealed about what the government is doing just seems inconsequential to most posters.

    FWIW (i.e. not much), this poll shows that support for NSA surveillance under Bush was stronger with Republicans, and support for NSA surveillance under Obama was stronger with Democrats.

  372. 372
    LAC says:

    @NR: You have been asked to answer a question. Perhaps spending more of your time doing that would be of better use than trying to come up with “i know what you are,but what am I” attempts at snark. “A lot” is how a five year old answers.

  373. 373
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Joey Giraud:

    Only if Barack Hussein Obama were in office at the time.

    If it were Hitlery or some Repuke, all best are off.

  374. 374
    Mandalay says:

    @NR:

    That the government is collecting data on millions of citizens

    Plus revelations about US surveillance of the EU, France, Germany, Italy, and China. And the monitoring by GCHQ in Britain.

    Of course our armchair experts here will insist that this is all old news, and they knew about it back in 2006. They may even throw in a yawn or two to show their disdain.

  375. 375
    John Cole says:

    Cassidy and Ted and Hellen are now both taking weeklong breaks, for obvious god damned reasons.

  376. 376
    Redshirt says:

    And lo! Something shiny emerges from this shit pile!

  377. 377
    NR says:

    @LAC: You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that I give a shit what you think. Allow me to correct that for you right now.

    When you begin a conversation the way you did, you show yourself to be unworthy of time or respect. So there you go.

  378. 378
    Bill Arnold says:

    …but the conversations ( appropriately compressed, of course ) would require real data farms.

    I’ve been trying to guess out what the Utah data center facility actually is/will be. Public estimates of 65 megawatts, no reason to believe otherwise for now. Are there any clues available about bandwidth? (And are there any clues about what what will be the energy usage ratio compute vs storage? How much “derived” metadata will be computed?)

  379. 379
    JWL says:

    I heartedly approve, indeed, wholeheartedly approve, of Snowden having “leaked” what We the People should have understood in the first place.

    When the time comes, I’ll donate to his defense fund.

    But, jeez, the guy is an innocent; the proverbial lamb among wolves.

  380. 380
    lojasmo says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    It probably is classified as assault in most jurisdictions. Donning a condom pretty much assumes responsibility for preventing muccous to semen contact. If you break it without consent, it is likely assault.

  381. 381
    Heliopause says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Maybe you’re not aware that Assange & Co. are trying to revive a damaged brand with self-promoting stunts

    Bald assertion and irrelevant to what we’re talking about.

    Yes, but he is likely to go to jail forever at least in part because of online evidence

    In other words, the vindictiveness, paranoia, and brutality of his prosecutors is the fault of somebody else.

    I was being generous when I called you “silly” by the way. It’s okay to have personal animus, everybody’s got some, but why are you letting it compose your posts for you? Can’t you make even a little effort to set that aside? Don’t you realize how utterly imbecilic it makes you look to blame Julian Assange for actions freely undertaken by Edward Snowden? Assange is an incompetent bumbler holed up in an embassy somewhere, but somehow is capable of enticing grownups into stupid personal decisions? You do realize how stupid that premise is, right?

    Why don’t you just admit the truth; you hate certain people for reasons of your own, and you then blame them for actions freely undertaken by others, then you post these ridiculous observations to a hosanna chorus of like-minded folks on a blog. It makes you feel better but bears no relation to objective reality. Just admit it.

  382. 382
    lojasmo says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    I am so angry, i feel that his current predicament is completely perfect for him.

    Just, totally angry.

    Moscow airport. Fucking genius.

  383. 383
    lojasmo says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Burns is a lawyer, janitor.

  384. 384
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Heliopause:

    Bald assertion and irrelevant to what we’re talking about.

    Sorry, no. It’s directly relevant to what we were talking about as it both refutes an erroneous assertion you made and underscores the main premise of my original post, which is that WikiLeaks isn’t serving the transparency enterprise well.

    Assange is an incompetent bumbler holed up in an embassy somewhere, but somehow is capable of enticing grownups into stupid personal decisions? You do realize how stupid that premise is, right?

    So your response is that the incompetent are incapable of leading the gullible? Talk about rank stupidity…

    Why don’t you just admit the truth; you hate certain people for reasons of your own, and you then blame them for actions freely undertaken by others, then you post these ridiculous observations to a hosanna chorus of like-minded folks on a blog. It makes you feel better but bears no relation to objective reality. Just admit it.

    I will “charitably” conclude that you composed this deeply stupid and bizarre reply shortly after suffering a head injury that rendered you incapable of comprehending the differences between “criticism” and “hatred” and “objective reality” and “shit you made up.” Because I’m charitable that way. You’re welcome.

  385. 385
    lojasmo says:

    @NR:

    This makes Obama looks bad because he’s making use of the law to protect national security?

    It’s his job.

  386. 386
    lojasmo says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    Nobody was talking about the NSA because nobody really gives a fuck about datamining that we knew all along was happening.

    IN fact, most people still don’t care.

    From a recent poll of American sheeple.

    When the NSA’s data-collecting PRISM program was described (along with this description: “The government reportedly does not target internet usage by U.S. citizens and if such data is collected, it is kept under strict controls.”), 66 percent said that the Obama administration was right to use PRISM, and 33 percent said it was wrong.

  387. 387
    lojasmo says:

    @Socoolsofresh:

    As noted above, 2/3 of Americans polled don’t care.

    Those who care are the 27% and the 5% who are our progressive betters.

    Remarkably similar, those two groups.

Comments are closed.