The Supreme Court punted, procrastinated and screwed with workers yet again. Discuss it here.
Reader Interactions
214Comments
Comments are closed.
by Tim F| 214 Comments
This post is in: Open Threads
The Supreme Court punted, procrastinated and screwed with workers yet again. Discuss it here.
Comments are closed.
gene108
Punted what? A link would be helpful.
Just Some Fuckhead
I like the way you think, Tim F. We only ever have one conversation on Balloon Juice so why waste a lot of time with commentary? I’ll get the ball rolling.
How will this latest development negatively impact Obama? Will this knock him out of the Top 3 Best Presidents Ever to the Top 5?
PeakVT
SCOTUSblog is doing a liveblog now.
The latest opinions are here.
ETA: Thanks, Tim.
c u n d gulag
Ok, I’ll take a punt on this one.
I was afraid that Roberts was going to draw up a play having Thomas out wide right, Alito out even further right, and Scalia out as far right as possible, and have Kennedy heave a “Hail Anton” pass.
jayjaybear
They’ve also announced that they’ll be releasing decisions tomorrow, probably in addition to Thursday. Considering the doorstops the decisions in Perry, Windsor and Shelby County are going to be, they may have decided they need to add a day.
eric
Given that this case is coming back on up, will the line up be different then and if it is different, who will be missing and who replaced the missing jurist(s)?
JR in WV
When one Justice (Ginsburg) calls on Congress to overturn the Court’s decision, you know you have a seriously defective set of justices on one side of the system, gumming up the works.
The Confederate party and their activist judges are doing their best to remove any and all protections workers have from their bosses and the political overclass. I still can’t believe Obamacare passed their review!
I want to descend into a frothing rant about the pure hatred distilled into these Confederates’ souls, but will abstain so as to not blow up my BP. They deserve whatever they have coming, should there actually be an afterlife… ’cause they are evil through and through.
jeffreyw
@Just Some Fuckhead: Obama cannot fail, he can only be failed.
Comrade Jake
Didn’t they basically say that colleges have to prove that there’s no other viable means to produce a diverse student body than by considering race? It would seem to me that’s actually not a difficult bar for most college admissions Deans to reach.
Baud
GOP Justices probably didn’t want to strike down affirmative action AND VRA in same week.
piratedan
the workers rights one is one that matters a bit, IANAL yet my take on it is that SCOTUS is allowing employers off the hook for allowing a hostile work environment to exist. They’ve said that Employers can’t be held liable for what their own supervisors do, so if you have a racist and/or sexist boss, your beef is with the supervisor, not the company.
gene108
@PeakVT:
What case are you guys talking about? I saw something like 6 cases dated today on your link.
Tim F.
@Just Some Fuckhead: Vote with your feet. Spend your valuable time at the countless blogs that suck less than we do.
Katie5
Happy St Jean de Baptiste Day.
amk
@Just Some Fuckhead: Idjit.
PaulW
@piratedan:
Even though the company could have the supervisor’s back and not the harassed employee’s.
Considering the CYA mentality of every bureaucracy – corporations, the military, the Catholic Church, any level of gov’t – this is not a good thing for those at the bottom of the food chain.
PeakVT
Here’s the voting (which is not the same as the merits of the decision)
Ryan v. Schad – unanimous anonymous reversal
Mutual Pharmaceutical Co. v. Bartlett – 5-4 bad guys
Vance v. Ball State Univ. – 5-4 bad guys
United States v. Kebodeaux – 7-2 good guys
University of Tex. Southwestern Medical Center v. Nassar – 5-4 bad guys
Fisher v. University of Texas at Austin – 7-1 punt, Ginsburg dissented from the bench, Kagan recused
TooManyJens
Meanwhile, in the George Zimmerman trial, the defense lawyer started off his opening statement with a knock-knock joke.
It’s at times like this that I almost kind of wish I were religious so I could pray for Trayvon’s parents.
Higgs Boson's Mate
TimF, for me, your post may as well have been written in Swahili. IANAL, I am not a court watcher. WTF happened and why is it important?
PeakVT
@gene108: I’m not talking about any particular one. But most of the chatter seems to be about Fisher v. UT Austin, which is an affirmative action case. By all accounts that was punted back to the lower court with instructions.
Roger Moore
@PeakVT:
I have a hard time seeing this as a win for the bad guys. It seems to me like a case of conflicting federal and state rules, and the Court ruled the way it ought to (federal trumps state). It may be that the federal rule needs to be updated, but I think the alternative proposal (the business has to shut down) is unreasonable.
celticdragonchick
@TooManyJens:
A bolide impact on the courtroom would be a merciful end.
Baud
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
The three big cases today:
Preemption case – GOP justices eliminated suits against certain pharmaceutical companies
Civil rights – GOP justices made it harder for employees to show that supervisors are supervisors, so made it hard to show discrimination
Affirmative action – SCT punted on whether any affirmative action will be permitted.
smedley the uncertain
@Tim F.: oooh, bitchy.
Not a good post, Tim
celticdragonchick
@Roger Moore:
I thought that one was a bit strange in the way the voting blocs aligned.
Punchy
@TooManyJens: At least he didn’t offer the jury iced tea and Skittles.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Baud:
Thank you. My ignorance in some things is so great that the only way for me to enlighten it is to ask simple questions.
Chyron HR
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Obama’s failure to replace Scalia, Alito and Thomas with Greenwald, Hamsher and Emptywheel is his greatest betrayal yet. I rank him 50th, below even the next few hypothetical presidents.
celticdragonchick
@Baud:
You left out the Nasser decision.
celticdragonchick
@Punchy:
You win the thread.
Baud
@celticdragonchick:
I did. Thanks.
Tim F.
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: At least for now I have a paying job that occasionally demands my attention during the day. Someone asked for an open SCOTUS thread so I put one up. Yeesh.
PeakVT
@Roger Moore: I have no idea on the merits. But it was 5-4, with Alito for the majority, and Breyer joined by Kagan and Sotomayor joined by Ginsburg in two dissents.
celticdragonchick
@Chyron HR:
I would not have thought it possible to name a lawyer even less desirable to have on the SCOTUS than Scalia, but Greenwald manages to make the cut.
ruemara
Screw the big things. I’m having problems deciding if I want to even fight against this transfer to a new job. I think I’m out of hope that facts make an impact or that they’ll even read my findings. People in power are not high on my list of trustworthy advocates. Should I bother?
Just Some Fuckhead
@Chyron HR:
Good one! I was going to suggest a related side conversation where we discuss how Obama failed the judicial process here.
Just Some Fuckhead
@smedley the uncertain: Ease up on Tim. He’s one of the good guys.
Cassidy
@Tim F.: That’s not how Just Some Chickenshit rolls.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Cassidy: lolz
You still nursing yer butthurt from yesterday?
Suffern ACE
@TooManyJens: So it looks like he hired himself one of those Philadelphia lawyers.
eemom
Jeezus Q. Christ. Did something go peepee in EVERYBODY’S cornflakes this morning?
This place is gonna look like Syria before the week is out.
jamick6000
@eemom: lqtm
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Just Some Fuckhead: Except this isn’t the conversation we’re having. What we’re all really worried about is how these decisions will affect Snowden’s ability to land in Ecuador or Cuba.
Even though I think Snowden should be tried for his leaks, this tweet posted on DK made me laugh:
beergoggles
Affirmative action was not a punt. They basically said onus is on schools to show that race based admissions was the only way to have a diverse student body.
It’s basically striking down affirmative action without looking like the assholes that they are.
peach flavored shampoo
Translation: Those burgers dont flip themselves!
rikyrah
@SybrinaFulton
God is using me, because how in the world am I able to listen to all of this ….by God’s Grace. There is power in the Blood!!
……………………….
This is Trayvon’s mother…after listening to a muthafucka open with a joke at the trial of her child’s murderer
Roger Moore
@PeakVT:
I’ll admit that I only skimmed the decision, but it looked to me as if the theory behind the original suit was flawed. The plaintiff was suing because the manufacturer hadn’t put serious enough warnings on the packaging . The problem is that the defendant wasn’t legally allowed to change the product information without permission from the FDA. The plaintiff’s counter-argument is that if the company can’t comply with both state and federal law, they should just stop selling the stuff. The Court ruled that the correct outcome in a case like that is federal preemption rather than forcing the manufacturer out of business. I didn’t look at the dissents, though, so they may have some better counter-argument.
rikyrah
if you would like to follow the George Zimmerman case, we’re blogging it here:
http://3chicspolitico.com/2013/06/24/state-of-florida-vs-george-zimmerman/
Cassidy
@Just Some
FuckheadChickenshit: Not surprised that’s your definition of “buthurt”, you being too much of a chickenshit to answer a simple question. Hopefully, that boy you referred to yesterday has an uncle or something, maybe an assertive mother. Either way, fuck off.SatanicPanic
@Just Some Fuckhead: He was already #4 on my list, so the answer is no, this won’t change his ranking.
Ted & Hellen
@Tim F.:
Oh dear.
Even the front pagers are getting touchy and defensive now.
Also noted: The familiar WE, through which usage the front pager attempts to wrap himself in the comforting blanket of the tribe. He fails to consider that perhaps some BJ front pagers suck less than others.
Ted & Hellen
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
If you were a member of the tribe, you would just KNOW.
burnspbesq
@piratedan:
I don’t think that’s a fair reading of the decision. What it does, IMO, is put in a requirement that you exhaust the employer’s internal grievance process (which puts the “supervisor” on notice), and only if no or ineffective corrective action is taken can you sue on a supervisor-liability theory.
rikyrah
@Baud:
I don’t think they cared about that at all.
But, the Texas case was NOT the one. It was a piece of shyt case.
this was a crap case to begin with- never should have been taken.
the plaintiff was pathetic. there were what, 60 people that got in over her. 4 were Black, 56 White…but, it’s only a problem with the 4 Blacks that got in over her?
G-T-F-O-H
Ted & Hellen
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Ah. Back in the tribe!
piratedan
@burnspbesq: fair enough burnsie, I hope your take on it is right, I did try and make sure that I had my IANAL up front ;-)
I hope that it’s not as odious as I portrayed it, it depends on your company though as to whether they are inclined to give their own HR staff the juice to force compliance or deal with the matter internally.
Ted & Hellen
@rikyrah:
WTF. So does she live in Bon Temps?
Sorry to rain on your vicarious martyrdom and sorrow, but Zimmerman has not been convicted, other than in your little head. If he is, THEN you can have your sadgasm.
Sly
@piratedan:
Not quite. The 1964 Civil Rights Act holds that an employer is automatically liable for any on-the-job discrimination that occurs by one employee against another if the discriminating employee is a supervisor of the one being discriminated against.
The case (Vance v. Ball State University) hinged on what the definition of “supervisor” is. The circuit courts use varying definitions and this case was decided under the 7th Circuit, which holds that a supervisor is someone with power to directly impact the employment status of others (i.e. can hire, fire, and promote). Counsel for Ball State argued that this definition should be used and that the complainant (Maetta Vance, who worked in catering for the university) did not adequately show that the person who discriminated against her was her supervisor, because that individual did not have the power to directly hire, fire, and promote staff.
Both the complainant and the government argued that the 7th Circuit definition was inadequate, and that “supervisor” should include employees with the power over another employee’s work schedule and those who make performance evaluations to assist those who do have a the power to directly impact someone’s employment status.
The Court sided with Ball State, 5-4.
Amir Khalid
What the haze looks like in KL today. I live about two kilometers from the Petronas Towers; from that distance, all I can see of them is a pale blue silhouette. There’s a distinct orangey tint to the full moon tonight.
Just Some Fuckhead
@SatanicPanic: What?? Who do you have before him other than Washington and Lincoln?
burnspbesq
@beergoggles:
Oh, bullpucky. That’s not a hard showing for UT to make.
Fisher may not be a win, but it’s at least a draw in which your team dominated for 90 minutes but was denied by the woodwork.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Tim F.:
Dammit, man, you have certain responsibilities as a front pager – or something. I have no idea what they are so I took the Balloon Juice tack of bitching about something which sprang from my own ignorance.
El Caganer
@rikyrah: When I saw that the lawyer opened with some rambling nonsense about his childhood and then went on to tell a joke, all I could think was mental illness of some sort. That’s not a defense….that’s gibberish.
Cacti
Ruh-roh:
Moscow Ed Snowden admits for the first time that he took Booz Allen job specifically to gather info on NSA surveillance.
I imagine once he’s safely arrived in his new love nest of freedom, one more admission will be coming. Something along the lines of coordinating with a foreign government before or during the course of his employment.
jayjaybear
@beergoggles: I thought they didn’t actually rule at all…they just remanded, with instructions for the 5th Circuit to use a more restrictive level of scrutiny on the retrial.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Cassidy: So you shoot yer mouth off unprovoked and then you express concern about my family and then you tell me to fuck off?
That’s one helluva hormonal roller coaster ride you got going there.
piratedan
@Sly: so SCOTUS is saying that if you have control over someone’s work schedule and perform performance evaluations, that doesn’t necessarily make you a “supervisor”?
LAC
@Just Some Fuckhead: You are too modest – you are THE fuckhead. All other fuckheads pale before thee. There is mountain range someplace that needs your face (or ass) carved into it – Mt. FuckMore we shall call it. We shall bring our children and they will bring their children and we will all wonder why there is an ass carved into a mountain? And then we will drive off to look at the world’s biggest ball of yarn and compare the sites – the yarn ball will win, of course…
burnspbesq
@Just Some Fuckhead:
Get over yourself.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@El Caganer:
Could he be setting up an appeal on the grounds that he is incapable of providing an adequate defense?
MomSense
Is it wrong that I pray to the FSM that Scalia is discovered in a ahem “wide stance” at Reagan National?
pamelabrown53
@rikyrah:
Re: following the George Zimmerman case link, thanks rikyrah.
El Caganer
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: I guess that could be a plan, though he’d be throwing in the towel awfully early if so.
Just Some Fuckhead
@MomSense:
Nino is overdue for a massive coronary episode. I imagine it will happen while he’s whipping himself for not being conservative enough.
LAC
@MomSense: No…I keep hoping that it is elvis style in a bathroom for him. But I pray like that…:)
peach flavored shampoo
Hard to justify the guy’s behavior now, since instead of mistakely stumbling upon all this and looking like a Robin Hood hero, he now looks like a mercenary doing pre-meditated spy work for himself and now whatever govt wants his goods.
PeakVT
@Amir Khalid: Looks awful. Quebec did the same to Burlington a few years ago. At least I got a colorful photo out of it.
LAC
@peach flavored shampoo: Oh, but some of our BJ folks will – they will say “Well, Jesus didn’t stay in one place, did he? He traveled around, spreading the word of the Lord” or something like that…
Just Some Fuckhead
@burnspbesq:
That’s pretty awesome coming from you, P. Burns, Esquire. lolz.
MomSense
@LAC:
I have the most hilarious imagery now of Scalia in a sequined pant suit with the big 70s collar with one leg back in the Elvis lunge stance. Oh, please, please, please FSM make it so!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@peach flavored shampoo: at the risk of sending up the bat (shit) signal, you do wonder if Snowden’s advisors and collaborators really thought running to China was a good idea, then from China to Russia.
Steeplejack
@c u n d gulag:
“Fascists go long.”
Punchy
@Just Some Fuckhead: He does that shit to everybody. Just wait for the inevitable ad homs that grow increasingly more vitriolic.
Kay
@El Caganer:
You really have to hear it to get the full effect. I listened on the radio.
It didn’t get any better either. After the knock knock joke came a confusing and bumbling description of an aerial view of the complex. It reminded me of asking someone for directions, realizing they have no idea what they’re talking about, but having to listen to the whole thing to be polite.
Elie
@Tim F.:
Amen to that!
piratedan
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: well if they believe the shit that they’re peddling that the USA is worse than China when it comes to human rights, well then all bets are off
Cacti
@peach flavored shampoo:
This latest admission, along with Greenwald’s reporting that Snowden approached him before starting at Booz Allen, is also making GG look rather more like a co-conspirator.
Cassidy
@Just Some
FuckheadChickenshit: You act as if you’re worthy of anything else?Patricia Kayden
@Comrade Jake: You’re correct, but they also said that the lower court should give no deference to the University. Not sure what that means.
Cassidy
@Punchy: Well, to be fair, the last time you and I talked was when you lamented about how your tailgate parties were negatively affected because a child had the audacity to be raped and bring negative attention on your beloved pastime. Not sure where you’re planning on going after that one. I just hope a player on your favorite team doesn’t rape a women, ebcause I’d hate for you to have a sad again.
SatanicPanic
@Just Some Fuckhead: The two Roosevelts. FDR for the New Deal, and Teddy because he went hiking alone with John Muir and was generally awesome in all things.
Washington is lower on my list because that was a long time ago and I can’t be bothered to figure out what the big deal with him was.
Suffern ACE
@rikyrah: She isn’t objecting to the four. It’s the hundreds who came from those public schools who finished in their top 10% that weren’t as “competitive” as her high school was.
Just Some Fuckhead
@SatanicPanic: Agree on Washington. I think most of his high ranking is hagiography.
Steeplejack
@ruemara:
At least you’ll have it in writing. And who knows? Bosses leave or get replaced, just like the little people, so you might find a more receptive audience down the road.
beergoggles
@jayjaybear: they did remand. But their instructions basically tells the lower court to ignore the past and attempted remedies to everything that happened in the past. Only deal with the now, make the school prove that their current method was narrowly tailored to their purpose, oh and if you ask us when the case comes upto us again, we’ll overturn Grutter..
It’s not looking good for the VRA with that logic. Just imagine them saying all remedies the VRA provided was for injustices of the past and “na na na na, we can’t hear you” about the voter suppression of the present… so we don’t need the VRA anymore because it doesn’t meet the strict scrutiny..
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@SatanicPanic: Well, he did start the French-Indian war as a LT in the British Army.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Oh my god. I just saw the video of the “knock knock joke”. WTF? Does that look as stupid and just fucking weird to other people? IANAL, but I have been a juror, and I would not have given that lawyer the laugh he was apparently sincerely expecting?
joes527
@Just Some Fuckhead: I think Washington’s claim to fame is that he didn’t go with the whole dictator-for-life direction that is so popular with first leaders of new countries.
A small thing, but fairly important in retrospect.
piratedan
@Just Some Fuckhead: part of that has to be precedent. He’s the first one to publicly relinquish the power of the office and turn it over in a peaceful transition to the next man. Considering the support that existed to make him the head of the new aristocracy and set him up as Monarch for life, not an insignificant event in the history of an infant nation.
Elie
@Cacti:
That’s some serious stuff… Didn’t GG say he had been “working with” Snowden prior to his move to Booz? If a foreign entity was also involved, GG would become an accomplice, no?
magurakurin
@Cacti:
Mistah Snowden — he dead.
Just Some Fuckhead
@joes527: But, really, was there any chance he could have pulled it off anyway? He had some pretty stalwart political rivals.
Polk and Jackson are in my Top 5. Of course, I’ve got about 10 in my top 5. (a lot of ties)
Roger Moore
@Amir Khalid:
As an Angeleno, I have some idea of what you’re going through. Seems like a good time to agitate for tougher pollution laws.
Amir Khalid
@peach flavored shampoo:
Since Edward Snowden first came to the public’s attention, I can’t think of a thing he’s done to enhance his credibility rather than diminish it. The more he says, the less reason you have to believe him. He might turn out to have little of value in his trove of “secrets”. I suspect he’s a nuisance to the countries he’s landed in, and of no use to them except as something to annoy the US with.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m just glad there’s video. Why did it take him so long to get to the aerial map after the weird “this is a SAD case” attempt at recovery?
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Amir Khalid:
We have a winner!
Just Some Fuckhead
@piratedan: See my comment to Joe. If Washington gets any credit for not perpetuating an aristocracy of one, then Jackson gets more credit for smashing what was essentially an aristocracy of a few.
SatanicPanic
@Just Some Fuckhead: Pretty much anyone who had been first and didn’t try to stay on the job for life would be ranked highly.
Patricia Kayden
@El Caganer: I’m assuming Zimmerman’s lawyer anticipates a win for his client regardless of how inept his defense may be in the vein of the initial Rodney King decision. I don’t see Zimmerman being found guilty of anything. I hope Mr. and Mrs. Martin (and their supporters) are able to deal with that and make peace with Trayvon’s murder regardless of the verdict.
Ben Cisco
SCOTUS to look at recess appointments case:
Roger Moore
@Just Some Fuckhead:
There’s some hagiography, but Washington deserves enormous credit for getting the government off on the right foot. Converting the government from some nice words on a piece of
papervellum into a functioning entity was never a given, and Washington was the most important factor in making it happen. To put it another way, if Washington had screwed up, there wouldn’t be any other Presidents to take away his title as the best ever.Amir Khalid
@Roger Moore:
What’s being agitated for right now is enforcement, by Indonesia, of its own existing law re slash and burn agricultural practices.
FlipYrWhig
@Just Some Fuckhead: Aren’t Polk and Jackson both war-mongers? Polk with the Mexican War, Jackson with the eradication of Native tribes?
pokeyblow
@LAC: Your life seems to revolve around expressing, inelegantly, your tedious, uninspired, and tired opinions of other people who post on this blog.
What a tiny, dark, hopeless place. Makes me psyched to be me, and I’m fucking pokeyblow.
piratedan
@Just Some Fuckhead: granted but imho he also gets smacked down for his treatment of the Seminole and Cherokees, but agree that Polk should be in the top 5, everyone seems to forget what a dynamo he was about establishing federal infrastructure
Sly
@piratedan:
Yes. Without the “necessarily” bit. The only criteria that makes someone your supervisor is if they can decide, unilaterally, to hire, fire, or promote you.
Which is why Ginsberg recommended that Congress make explicit the definition within the statute itself. She did the same thing in the Lily Ledbetter case with respect to the statute of limitations on pay discrimination – the Court decided that the 180 day statute of limitations begins with the first decision to discriminate. All the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act does is renew the statute of limitations every time pay discrimination occurs (i.e. whenever the employee being discriminated against gets a paycheck), which was the de facto definition until the Court fouled everything it up.
FlipYrWhig
@Roger Moore: Does any revisionist-minded person look back fondly on those Articles of Confederation leaders who came before the Constitution?
pokeyblow
Top five presidents? The question should concern his ranking among the top five figures in world-history.
Ruckus
@El Caganer:
That’s not a defense….that’s gibberish.
When the facts are on your side, argue the facts.
When the law is on your side, argue the law.
When all you have left is bullshit, you lay it on thick.
mdblanche
@Cacti: This is the least shocking thing I’ve heard all day. Really, who is this guy’s lawyer, Don West?
Patricia Kayden
@peach flavored shampoo: But but but we’re not supposed to focus on Snowden. He’s just the innocent hero like Dr. King or Ellsberg, doncha know?. If we focus on him at all, we’re the bad guys. In fact, if we don’t see him as a hero, something is wrong with us.
Let’s see where he winds up. I feel sorry for all those reporters who boarded a plane from Russia to Cuba in vain this morning in their zeal to follow Snowden’s every move.
handsmile
Justice, Italian style.
“Silvio Berlusconi, the former Italian prime minister and head of the main coalition partner in the current government, has been found guilty of paying for sex with an underage prostitute and abusing his office to cover it up…. A panel of three female judges sentenced the 76-year-old billionaire to seven years in jail and slapped him with a lifetime ban on holding public office.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/silvio-berlusconi-guilty-underage-prostitute
Now being over 70, Signore Bunga Bunga cannot be jailed for his crimes and he has at least two more rounds of appeals of this conviction. But I’m grateful for even ephemeral good news this week.
pokeyblow
Appeals will come first, but Baller Berlusconi just got sentenced to seven years.
SatanicPanic
@pokeyblow: Now let’s not go overboard.
pokeyblow
@SatanicPanic: OK, top 7 from history.
Dude gets Nobel Peace Prizes and shit just because.
FlipYrWhig
@Patricia Kayden: I don’t think I’m capable of feeling sorry for any reporters.
Suffern ACE
@Sly: Under that definition, there are very few hierarchical organizations that have supervisors.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Punchy: We went through that yesterday. He’s still coming back down.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Patricia Kayden:
Oh, shit. Zimmerman’s attorney likely knows the predilections of Florida jurors way better than any of us. His bizarre opening may just mean that he’s confident of acquittal.
SatanicPanic
@piratedan: That’s interesting, I don’t know anything about Polk and had never considered his presidency.
Todd
@LAC:
You’re killing me here. I’m sitting through an extended docket call in court (my fourth of the day), and I just laughed out loud.
Sly
@Suffern ACE:
Feature, not a bug.
piratedan
@Sly: TY Sly, glad to be corrected and nice to know that the “legal” definition has little bearing with the reality of the workplace.
Just Some Fuckhead
@SatanicPanic: lolwut
How do you have Obama slotted in at #4 then?
Villago Delenda Est
@smedley the uncertain:
On the contrary, an excellent post. The poster to whom he replied needs to go DIAF, as do you.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Washington is highly regarded mostly for the fact that he was a universally beloved national figure, who lent his stature to the Executive Branch at a time when a disagreement over it could have split the country apart in its infancy. He also relinquished power willingly and peacefully after 2-terms, knowing that he could have easily held the presidency until his dying day.
His willingness to ride out at the head of 12,000 militia to put down the Whiskey Rebellion, was also an important moment in establishing that the U.S. government had sufficient real power to enforce duly enacted legislation against insurrection and lawlessness.
pokeyblow
Knock knock
Who’s there?
Nobody, but a black kid is walking to a 7-11 near your house to buy a snack.
OK, let me get my gun.
Suffern ACE
@Sly: It’s amazing we get anything done around here. No one makes any decisions. No one is in charge. Decisions just kind of happen. Where they come from, no one knows.
Tone in DC
@Patricia Kayden:
I could be extremely Pollyanna in my hope that Holder and DoJ step in, if that jury finds him innocent. This case fairly screams “hate crime” to me.
FlipYrWhig
@pokeyblow: I’m going to have to know more about the political coalitions the czars and khans had to keep together. Was building a pyramid of skulls necessary to ensure the support of some guy’s district? Were the poisonings a giveaway to the Big Poison lobby? Was that scarab tax part of some elaborate pharaonic 11-dimensional chess strategy?
Amir Khalid
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
My own experience as a court reporter leads me to agree with Ruckus #119. I think Zimmerman’s defence team may have figured they’ve got nothing.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Villago Delenda Est:
That was, um, nuanced.
mdblanche
@FlipYrWhig: IIRC Polk’s message to Congress asking for a declaration of war involved lies of omission at best and the war destabilized a fragile emerging democracy, i.e. the US.
SatanicPanic
@Just Some Fuckhead: I never claimed to be a scholar. The fact that I put Teddy in the top five for personal awesomeness should have been your first clue. I don’t know crap about anyone before Lincoln.
Ruckus
@LAC:
…someplace that needs your face (or ass) carved into it…
Is there a difference?
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore:
The problem here being that the source of the pollution is in Indonesia. Interestingly, though it seems that companies based in Malaysia and Singapore are heavily involved in creating the pollution in the first place.
piratedan
@SatanicPanic:
for grins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StTiCU_fqCg
Just Some Fuckhead
@SatanicPanic: But personal awesomeness IS the reason Teddy Roosevelt is highly ranked. Hell, he got shot in the chest and finished his speech before seeking medical help.
Xenos
@Just Some Fuckhead: There is a lot more to Washington than his retirement, as important as it was. His insistence on humane treatment of prisoners, and rejection of torture and abuse of minorities were pretty important. For an 18th century whig he was pretty enlightened.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: That’s pretty interesting. I really should rectify the gaps in my USA historical knowledge. It’s on my to-do list. One of the reasons is that I don’t know who which books to read for US prezzies. Any recommendations?
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
TR could have easily been cast in an early 20th-century version of the “World’s Most Interesting Man” campaign from Dos Equis.
Villago Delenda Est
@piratedan:
Amazing, that.
The groundwork is being laid, as we speak, for all sorts of tumbrel excitement in the future.
pokeyblow
@FlipYrWhig: As long as the Harold Fords of the day were kept happy, there were never grounds for questioning any of those policies.
piratedan
@mdblanche: which he addressed by establishing a Department of the Treasury thereby removing the leveraging of the government by the banks… not a great guy because of the Mexican American War (but you could argue that it was coming irregardless courtesy of Texas) but what’s also obverlooked is how he kept them from another shooting war with England with the Northwest Territory resolution.
Suffern ACE
@Xenos: I think there’s that whole “Yeah, we’re a revolutionary democracy, but just because of that doesn’t mean we need to run off and join the French Revolutionary cause. We’re kind of broke anyway” neutrality which was just what the nation needed at that point.
LAC
@pokeyblow: This from you? Oh yeah, BJ wouldn’t be the same without your wit. Btw, how do you do without it?
What is your day like?: “Obummer stinks…duh….” latch on to some BJ poster’s gonads you agree with…rinse, repeat? Ok, Oscar Wilde…
SatanicPanic
@Just Some Fuckhead: No one will ever top that. The most badass moment in US Presidential politics.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@SatanicPanic:
For me, TR deserves a slot for his conservation work. The Antiquities Act of June 8, 1906 laid the foundation for many good things.
pokeyblow
@LAC: Seriously, what else do you do?
What kind of life is that?
SatanicPanic
@piratedan: That was actually pretty informative.
Villago Delenda Est
@Sly:
Well, I guess then that all the people that I wrote performance evaluations of in the military and had to jump whenever I issued orders were not under my supervision, because I could not, on the spot, kick them out of the Army and put them on the unemployment rolls.
That’s an interesting way to define “supervisor”.
piratedan
@SatanicPanic: he wasn’t a pleasant guy, nor was it all sunshine and rainbows, but for sheer accomplishment (be it by hook or crook) a whole lotta changes took place while he was in office.
Ted & Hellen
@Elie:
Oh my sweet Christ. lol
handsmile
@SatanicPanic:
On Polk, specifically, an excellent recent work is A Country of Vast Designs: James Polk, the Mexican War, and the Conquest of the American Continent (2010).
The on-going American Presidents series, published by Times Books, offers informative, generally reliable, and brief (200 pages or so) biographies.
LAC
@pokeyblow: For you, yes. That is is it. You want to be taken seriously by me, you will have to take the clown shoes off. And before you start strenously denying that you do not care if I take you seriously, remember who engaged who first today.
Ted & Hellen
@Cassidy:
Oh my. Is Fuck also a pedo, Assidy?
Do tell.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
George Washington: A Biography, by Washington Irving is a good one for the perspective of an actual historical contemporary.
Washington: the Indispensable Man, by James Thomas Flexner is also a good one, and an abridged version of an exhaustive 4-volume biography he had previously written.
Amir Khalid
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yes, and as a Malaysian I’d hope that my government would take a dim view of Malaysian corporations embarrassing the country by breaking the law abroad. (I know better than to expect it of a shamelessly corporatist bunch like the Barisan Nasional government, though.)
But the illegal slash and burn causing the haze is all happening on Indonesian soil, where Indonesia enforces Indonesian law, and Indonesian corporations are not without blame in this. Asean-level meetings have gone over this again and again for the past 16 years, and this same thing keeps happening.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@Villago Delenda Est:
Hell’s bells, try all of the interesting ways that California employers use to declare an employee “exempt” (No overtime pay).
Just Some Fuckhead
So here’s my list:
1. (tie) The Roosevelts
2. (tie) Lincoln, Polk
3. (tie) Jackson, Washington
4. (tie) Jefferson, Truman
5. Woodrow and Edith Wilson
LAC
@Patricia Kayden: That was funny in an awful way. Hey, enjoy your flight to Cuba, the midflight movie is “Grownups” and as soon as the captain shuts off the seatbelt sign, you can move around the cabin finding a place to bang your head into.
pokeyblow
@LAC: I don’t want to be taken seriously by you. No strain, and no “denying that I do not care.” ha ha
I come to a political blog and make a comment about Obama, or Zimmerman, or maybe Netflix.
You come to a political blog and make a comment about pokeyblow, or Just Some Fuckhead, or whomever.
Seems quite sad to me. But if it helps you make it through each hopeless day, carry on.
James E. Powell
@Patricia Kayden:
It may be that the defense attorney sees some advantage in turning the trial into a media circus. It has worked for some defendants, no?
One wonders whether the defendant will testify.
joes527
@Xenos: I find Washington on slavery to be fascinating. He was definitely a man of his time and place, and was never able to get past the fact that so much of his own personal wealth was tied up in slaves.
But at least that bothered him. Unlike Jefferson, who seemed to make his peace with slavery as he got older, Washington seemed to be more uncomfortable with it as time went by.
For who he was, that’s pretty amazing.
Higgs Boson's Mate
@LAC:
Your comment triggered a vision of the journos being shown pro-Castro short features on an endless loop.
Ronzoni Rigatoni
@PaulW: Back in the day when I was representing Employeees in EEO cases, IIRC our burden was to prove that the offending behavior occurred and that management was informed but did nothing. Seems now management doesn’t have to do anything. Wow. Just Wow.
Ted & Hellen
@Tone in DC:
WTF? lol
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Actually, that opening screams “we’re going for endless appeals based on incompetent representation.” I think Zimmerman’s dad is a retired judge, so they’ll know how to play this game until everyone involved is dead of old age.
Cacti
@joes527:
Jefferson was a great POTUS, but on a personal level, his relationship with Sally Hemings was just plain reprehensible.
Ted & Hellen
Although it is true…that Trayvon likely felt something akin to hate while he was bashing Zimmerman’s head into the sidewalk.
Would that be a hate crime?
What do you think, Assidy?
LAC
@pokeyblow: Oh shut up already or at least get someone to nail you on the cross properly. You have been a bug on the windshield of many people on this board, so singling me out for your first day of a period whining is lame. Your comments are as deep as a drop of water. I spend more time driving by them then stopping to read them. You spend more time having tantrums with others then defending them with facts. But the good thing is that we live in a country where your whining and my sarcasm are not state run, like say, in China or Russia. And I think if some fuckhead wanted to say something, he is capable of doing so. He doesn’t need you soiling yourself on his behalf.
mdblanche
@piratedan:
Lousy campaign promise breaker. Whatever happened to “54 40 or fight?”
And by destabilization I was mainly thinking of the political, and later military, fight over whether or not slavery would spread to all the new territory acquired under Polk.
Ash Can
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
With this latest news, it’s looking a lot more like going to China and Russia was Snowden’s own plan all along. And Greenwald, with his earlier admission that he was working with Snowden before the latter’s employment at Booz Allen, has made himself out to be a conspirator in what now is looking very much like an espionage case. Either he got played in a big way, or he has an awful lot of ‘splainin’ to do.
LAC
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: LOL!! “Cuba – the little Island that could!”
pokeyblow
@LAC: Sadder than being you must be the moments when you realize it.
That’s the abyss, and it’s smart of you to look away.
Ronzoni Rigatoni
@Ronzoni Rigatoni: And it didn’t matter what class of employee caused the problem. Coulda been a nudder employee or a mere supervisor. We just had to demonstrate that the situation was there and that management knew about it..
Cacti
@Ash Can:
I’m thinking that GG’s vanity and rock solid certainty that he’s always the smartest guy in the room made him an easy mark.
I wonder if he’s starting to worry that he’s set himself up as a patsy after Snowden reaches his final destination, and has no more need of him.
SatanicPanic
@Higgs Boson’s Mate: Absolutely. That puts him way up on my list.
@Cacti: Thanks, I’ve added that to my wish list along with the book on Polk that Handsmile recommended.
Ted & Hellen
@pokeyblow:
golf claps
LAC
@pokeyblow: blah. blah.. Jaysus, can you drive into that abyss already? I am surprised we have not used you as a way to fight terrorism. Boring someone to death beats drones any day…
gwangung
@Ted & Hellen:
I think this is a lazy comment. You can do better at being contrary.
Amir Khalid
@Liebe Ted und Hellen:
Wie weißt du das? Warst du dabei?
Dein Freund,
Amir Khalid
pokeyblow
@LAC: I think a quick review of recent comment-sections here will show you to be far, far more fascinated by me than I by you.
However, since you claim that I lack interest, treat me like the world treats you, and look away.
Cassidy
@gwangung: It is lonely and needs emotional contact. I have no interest as it is boring. It can buy a hooker or eat a bullet; makes no difference to me.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Ash Can: Much as I’d like to shut Greenwald up, this isn’t going to be how that happens. “Conspiracy” can be a crime, but it’s the easiest one to get out of.
Forum Transmitted Disease
@Cassidy: Tim’s damaged goods. Never seen someone so desperate for human contact, but it’s obvious from his conduct here why that’s not working out real well for him IRL.
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: Serious haze/smoke there. Wouldn’t try going out unless I had a dust mask on.
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: Think he gets ranked high, because he probably could have been ‘president for life’ and ensured that path would not be taken by him or successors.
LAC
@pokeyblow: I would tell you to look in the mirror with that last comment, but I do not think we should add to your endless narcissism. bye now…
LAC
@Forum Transmitted Disease: Greenwald will find a way to wriggle out of it and continue to write over ripe tripe that someone will eat up. But maybe it will stop the knee jerk reaction to his pieces. MSM did not do well by this.
Paul in KY
@FlipYrWhig: If you’re going to stack 100,000 skulls in an orderly manner, it has to be a pyramid.
That’s despot 101.
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: Reason I love Pres. Theodore Roosevelt is that I like to sing his praises to my wingnut bretheren here:
Create National parks
Trust busting
Just the kind of stuff your typical Republ;ican would do…
Amir Khalid
@Paul in KY:
I know. They’re selling out of masks at pfarmacies all over KL. I’m not having any real breathing difficulties myself, but the smog stings my eyes quite a bit.
Paul in KY
@Villago Delenda Est: Thise men & women sure did a good job of pretending to be your supervisorees.
Mine had me fooled too…
Paul in KY
@Just Some Fuckhead: Here’s mine:
1. Franklin D. Roosevelt
2. Harry Truman
3. Theodore Roosevelt
4. Grover Cleveland
5. James Madison
Paul in KY
@Cacti: His relationship with his nail making slaves & what the overseers could do to get them to put out those nails is more reprehensible, IMO.
rikyrah
@Ted & Hellen:
Trayvon is dead and Zimmerman hasn’t come up with the lie that someone else was him.
He stalked…hunted…and murdered Trayvon for the crime of WALKING WHILE BLACK.
Trayvon was minding his own business when he came up on this racist sociopath.
rikyrah
@Suffern ACE:
Top 10% is top 10%.
That she wasn’t bright enough or didn’t work hard enough to make it into the top 10% of her high school’s class should be those kid’s problem, because?
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: Best wishes to you on staying healthy.
Just Some Fuckhead
@Paul in KY: Very interesting. Make a case for four and five and a case against Lincoln.
Amir Khalid
@Ted & Hellen:
For your consideration.
Elie
@Cacti:
Snowden will need a source of money. I guess Wikileaks could provide that, at least in the short run. Problem is, time is not on his side. Since his way of doing this was about being a showboat, and smashing his own credibility, once his flash dies down, there won’t be much for him to say new that people want to hear — especially having turned himself into less than a hero. He is uneducated and may know very little about any concepts of governance or the political process. Assange also knows little and therefore has no respect for the institution of government, thus destroying it or putting it at risk has no meaning for him. That was literally how he grew up.
Two, three years from will Snowden, now holed up in Ecuador be writing articles for the Guardian on what exactly? “I remember when I had access to such and such..”? The danger for GG is as this guy casts about for new angles and sources of revenue or notoriety, throwing his old friend under the bus might sound like a good action plan in a great “tell all” book. Also, what looks like a cool alternative right now, may be less cool a few years from now after living in a lifestyle without much variety. To address his boredom, maybe he will come out on his balcony from time to time to throw flowers and receive the adulation of Ted and Helen – oh wait, they are shut-ins who can’t travel. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how Assange and him get along since I am sure Snowden is gonna want to drive his own show. Those are some pretty big egos inside very weird people
Elie
@Forum Transmitted Disease:
Its not the legal accountability for conspiracy necessarily. It is having a seemier side of this whole thing revealed in a tell all by his once friend Snowden.. Snowden has not revealed himself to be a man of fine principles and integrity… having sold out in a big way once, why should you back off from in later?
Paul in KY
@Paul in KY: Fuck!
I forgot Lincoln!! Sorry, Abe. Here is my updated list:
1. Abraham Lincoln
2. Franklin D. Roosevelt
3. Harry Truman
4. Theodore Roosevelt
5. James Monroe (had confused him with Madison)
Monroe was instumental in getting s Louisianna (steal) purchase, (which he negotiated with French)., also helped to keep European powers from encroaching in Western Hemisphere with Monroe Doctrine.
Would have had Andrew Jackson in there, but his shameful treatment of Indians dropped him down (IMO).