Putin Steals Snowden’s Laptop During Moscow Layover

putin_laptop

MOSCOW – June 23, 2013 – NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden left Hong Kong on an Aeroflot flight to Moscow. His ultimate destination is thought to be Venezuela by way of Havana. However, during Snowden’s Moscow stopover, he met with Russian President Vladimir Putin, who stole his laptop.

“He said he wanted to see my laptop, so I showed it to him in the airport lounge,” said Snowden. “Putin picked it up and said, ‘I could kill someone with this.’”

“I reached out to take it back, but his secret service guys surrounded him, and he walked out of the airport with my fucking laptop!” Snowden continued. “Son of a bitch!”

Guardian columnist Glenn Greenwald did not immediately respond to a request for comments.

[X-posted at Rumproast]

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519 replies
  1. 1
    MikeBoyScout says:

    LOL

  2. 2
    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS) says:

    Not sure if this site has become the Onion, but lol.

  3. 3
    Xantar says:

    A liveblog of Snowden’s airplane? Really?

  4. 4
    RepubAnon says:

    Is anybody’s lunch money safe from Mr. Putin?

  5. 5
    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS) says:

    @Xantar: That threw me off as well. maybe that’s so the F16s don’t get him.

  6. 6
    LittlePig says:

    Well played! :)

  7. 7
    Linda Featheringill says:

    LOL.

    What a lovely soap opera.

    BTW, I’m sure that ALL of Snowden’s files have already been inspected.

    And his contacts.

    And etc.

  8. 8
    c u n d gulag says:

    Putin also told him, “You know what we call whistleblowers in Russian?
    ‘Tруп.’
    That’s pronounced ‘troop,’ young man.
    But that doesn’t mean we put them in the military.
    No. It means they’re corpses that we make disappear.
    So, don’t become a good ‘труп-er’ – ha-ha! – and don’t tell anyone I took your little laptop.
    Hey, want to see me without my shirt? EVERYBODY wants to see me with my shirt off!!!”

  9. 9
    Dolly Llama says:

    Charles Johnson picked the wrong morning to sleep late. All the argument hogs are firmly entrenched at TPM now. I like both those blogs, but too many of the commenters on both of them are so stupid they almost have to be trolls.

  10. 10
    Linda Featheringill says:

    Snowden can grumble but he really wasn’t in a position to actively resist the theft.

  11. 11
    Dolly Llama says:

    @Dolly Llama: “… almost have to be spooftrolls.” No edit function today, I guess.

  12. 12
    piratedan says:

    gotta say, Snowden’s actions are those of a true patriot. I assume that he’ll also be stopping off in North Korea, Pakistan and Syria before deciding on which bastion of civil liberties is the right place to settle down.

  13. 13
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @Dolly Llama:
    I know what you mean, DL. When I saw the NYTs headline, I immediately went to Little Green Footballs and was disappointed that Charles Johnson was incommunicado.

  14. 14
    MattF says:

    Poor Vlad. All he wants is for people to do what he tells them to. Is that so terrible?

  15. 15
    Lurking Canadian says:

    @Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): This. If that’s a true story…I mean, the folks at the Onion do good work, but we don’t need them anymore.

  16. 16
    JPL says:

    When will the Weather Channel start tracking the Snowstormden. I’m beginning to think the guy has a few loose screws.

  17. 17
    SRW1 says:

    A spoks for Putin said that Wladimir is going to get Snowden a счёты for a replacement.

  18. 18
    MikeBoyScout says:

    @piratedan: Ever heard of “any port in a storm”? And frankly Moscow is GORGEOUS in July. If you’ve not been, you should try it.

  19. 19
    Baud says:

    HK to Snowden: “You don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here.”

  20. 20
  21. 21
    Bjacques says:

    During his layover in Moscow, Snowden took in the sights, accompanied by a Professor Woland and a very large black cat.

  22. 22
    Baud says:

    You know what’s awesome about the original Superbowl ring story? I don’t care who’s telling the truth. It’s win-win either way.

  23. 23
    Mandalay says:

    Old news now, but before Snowden left Hong Kong the Administration had this to say:

    “If Hong Kong doesn’t act soon, it will complicate our bilateral relations and raise questions about Hong Kong’s commitment to the rule of law,” a senior Obama administration official told Reuters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

    It’s bad enough that the media agree to report on lectures from the Administration about following the rule of law in espionage. But the source demanded anonymity!

    And it’s even worse when our stenographers repeat the quote, but don’t even mention that it was only provided on condition of anonymity (CBS, Chicago Tribune, LA Times, Fox News, NYT, etc…). It’s hardly an elite left wing media conspiracy.

    Why can’t the media always state when Administration quotes are given on condition of anonymity? It doesn’t mean the source is lying, but it does raise questions about their integrity.

  24. 24
    Suffern ACE says:

    Sad. I wonder if he goes through security if he has to turn all four laptops on, or if he checks them to avoid the hassle. If he kept them on him, he’d be hogging up all of those trays and take up more than his fair share of overhead bin space.

  25. 25
    Baud says:

    @Mandalay:

    I’m not a fan of using anonymous sources for opinion or analysis. They really should be limited to getting out facts that otherwise wouldn’t be made public.

  26. 26
    bill d says:

    Sorry but this is unbelievable. There is no way in hell that “Glenn Greenwald did not immediately respond to a request for comments”.

  27. 27
    Baud says:

    @MikeBoyScout:

    Visas not required if you’re carrying state secrets.

  28. 28
    Betty Cracker says:

    @bill d: Touché!

  29. 29
    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS) says:

    @bill d: We’re waiting for update XXVII.

  30. 30
    khead says:

    The laptop is in Aaron Hernandez’s house.

    Also, even though I know this will never be seen by him, happy belated Mr. Cole. Been a busy weekend.

  31. 31
    piratedan says:

    @MikeBoyScout: I’m sure it’s lovely, the architecture itself is stunning (always fascinated by the minnarets) but I’m more of a nature’s wonders kind of guy myself when it comes to sightseeing but hey, maybe Cuba and Venezuela are in play as well before he Carmen Sandiegos his way into Iceland. All that we’re missing is Phil Keoghan waiting on a mat and a check for a million dollars.

  32. 32
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mandalay: @Baud: The media could change that if they chose to do so.

  33. 33
    MikeBoyScout says:

    @Baud: ssssshhhhhh! Don’t tell anyone about what We the People do to keep you “safe”!

  34. 34
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Dolly Llama: it’s amazing. “Venezuela is more free than we are!” “Snowden is a hero!” gag.

  35. 35
    Mandalay says:

    @piratedan:

    Snowden’s actions are those of a true patriot. I assume that he’ll also be stopping off in North Korea, Pakistan and Syria before deciding on which bastion of civil liberties is the right place to settle down.

    Ah, the familiar tired trope: Pick arbitrary “bad countries”, and suggest that Snowden will end up there. Places where democracy is “inferior” to ours, making Snowden a hypocrite and as well as a traitor.

    Snowden’s choices of destination are limited to those countries that will not succumb to the threats of a government that has been severely embarrassed by what he has exposed.

    But at least you didn’t ask why Snowden had to leave at all if he loves this country so much. At least you didn’t insist that he could have gone through appropriate channels to raise his concerns. At least you didn’t claim that he threatened our national security. You really deserve some credit.

  36. 36
    JPL says:

    @Mandalay: Really! My sympathies don’t lie with Snowden at this point.

  37. 37
    Mandalay says:

    @Baud:

    I’m not a fan of using anonymous sources for opinion or analysis. They really should be limited to getting out facts that otherwise wouldn’t be made public.

    I’m with you all the way, but sadly that’s not going to happen.

    But as long as the media is happy to regurgitate propaganda without a source, at least explicitly state that the source demanded anonymity so we can judge its value accordingly.

  38. 38
    PaulW says:

    Note to self: don’t let Putin anywhere near my deluxe hardcover “Watchmen” novel.

  39. 39
    piratedan says:

    @Mandalay: well really where has he gone? Did he flee to somewhere neutral? Did I miss that part?

    If someone is protesting government action and engaging in civil disobedience, what do they do? MLK, went to jail to make his point, Ellsberg turned himself in

    what domestic laws that have been broken with the data that he’s “revealed” to The Guardian? ones showing governmental abuse of collecting data on its own citizens or the ones he’s committed himself by downloading documents and fleeing the country?

    so maybe you should take that broomstick outta your ass

  40. 40
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Mandalay: ah. The thunderous sermon from the Mount of Lettuce. Saves us from having to go to Church this week.

  41. 41
    Ash Can says:

    @Mandalay: You’re just a parody of yourself at this point.

  42. 42
    Mandalay says:

    @JPL:

    Really! My sympathies don’t lie with Snowden at this point.

    My point was nothing to do with sympathy; it is certainly possible to make coherent and informed criticism of Snowden’s actions.

    But the strawman arguments are so lame and tired it’s embarrassing to even read them.

  43. 43
    Bill E Pilgrim says:

    @Mandalay: Then there was this:

    The United States government charged former intelligence analyst Edward Snowden with spying on Friday, apparently unaware that in doing so it had created a situation dripping with irony. At a press conference to discuss the accusations, an N.S.A. spokesman surprised observers by announcing the spying charges against Mr. Snowden with a totally straight face. “These charges send a clear message,” the spokesman said. “In the United States, you can’t spy on people.”

    Okay it’s satire, but so is this post so seemed fitting.

  44. 44
    amk says:

    @Mandalay:

    lectures from the Administration

    regurgitate propaganda without a source,

    Nice lack of self-awareness there.

  45. 45
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Mandalay:

    “If Hong Kong doesn’t act soon, it will complicate our bilateral relations and raise questions about Hong Kong’s commitment to the rule of law,” a senior Obama administration official told Reuters,

    Says the misadministration which so thoroughly investigated, prosecuted and punished the Bush/Cheney regime. Because the rule of law (hahahahahahaha) applies to everyone, regardless of wealth or power, amirite?

    THIS quote should be in the Onion.

  46. 46
    Chyron HR says:

    @Mandalay:

    I tell you what, I am sick of all these strawman arguments from Obotomized Obots who mindlessly worship Dear Leader. Why can’t they stop fantasizing about getting raped by him for even a moment?

  47. 47
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Ash Can: to be fair, the other side is just as bad. With their demands tgat every fugative be MLK leading sit down strikes for information freedom.

  48. 48
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @JPL:

    Well, of course they don’t. He’s a threat to BO’s political career and legacy which is really all that matters.

  49. 49
    CMReaK says:

    @Mandalay:

    He didn’t HAVE to flee at all. He could have returned (or never left) and allowed the legal process to play out. Honestly, if we want challenge the extensive access that the NSA has to electronic communications, a court room is the place to do it. People engaged in civil disobedience often EXPECT to be arrested because it draws attention to their issue and it allows for a legal challenge that could enhance civil liberties. Fleeing the country sort of short-circuits that whole business.

  50. 50
    Suffern ACE says:

    @amk: the only acceptable information from the government is information that makes it look bad. All other information reveals its fascist tendencies and follows the Goebbles play book.

  51. 51
    Anton Sirius says:

    @Dolly Llama:

    Charles Johnson picked the wrong morning to sleep late.

    The world doesn’t revolve around Eastern Standard Time, y’know.

  52. 52
    Cermet says:

    Putin takes the critical laptop but the Chinese didn’t but let him go with it; tells you a lot on the nature of the leaders that rule these two countries.

    I recall the American crew of that P-3 Spy plane that landed in China. The Chinese put them in a five star hotel and treated them as honored guests and after bush apologized, sent them and the plane back to the US (yes, it was their fighter pilot who was totally in the wrong for causing the collision but the not intercept (we always do that, too), he did die due to his actions and no Amerikans were hurt. So, not exactly over reacting by the Chinese to hold the crew/plane after they landed on a Chinese airfield – we’d do the same.)

  53. 53
    CMReaK says:

    @Chyron HR:

    Wow. What a dickish comment.

  54. 54
    Dolly Llama says:

    @Anton Sirius: I’m sorry for my time-zonist comment.

  55. 55
    Cermet says:

    Putin takes the critical laptop but the Chinese didn’t take it and also let Snowden go with it; tells you a lot on the nature of the leaders that rule these two countries.

    I recall the American crew of that P-3 Spy plane that landed in China. The Chinese put them in a five star hotel and treated them as honored guests and after bush apologized, sent them and the plane back to the US (yes, it was their fighter pilot who was totally in the wrong for causing the collision but not for the intercept of the P-3 (we always do that to Russian planes off the US coast, too); also, the Chinese pilot did die due to his actions and no Amerikans were hurt. So, not exactly over reacting by the Chinese to hold the crew/plane after they landed on a Chinese airfield – we’d do the same.)

  56. 56
    Mike E says:

    @Cermet: IIRC the crew was served dim sum on pieces of the plane’s nosecone.

  57. 57
    different-church-lady says:

    Anyone else thinking “Vanishing Point“?

    Kowalski drives across Utah and into Nevada, with the police unable to catch him. During the pursuit, Kowalski listens to radio station KOW, which is broadcasting from Goldfield, Nevada. A blind African-American disc jockey at KOW, Super Soul (Cleavon Little), listens to the police radio frequency and encourages Kowalski to evade the police. Super Soul seems to understand Kowalski and seems to see and hear Kowalski’s reactions. With the help of Super Soul, who calls Kowalski “the last American hero,” Kowalski gains the interest of the news media, and people begin to gather at the KOW radio station to offer their support.

  58. 58
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    Hard to believe that PRC intelligence agents didn’t snoop whatever Snowden had while he was staying in HK. Easy to believe that they determined that they know more than he does about US methods and points of attack. Fun to believe that they gave him up to the KGB in return for a player to be named.

  59. 59
    different-church-lady says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Easy to believe that they determined that they know more than he does about US methods and points of attack.

    “WTF? All the dude’s got is PowerPoints? Ship his ass to Putin and let them babysit this guy.”

  60. 60
    Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS) says:

    I think Snowden’s just doing this for the pageviews. Obvious troll is obvious.

  61. 61
    geg6 says:

    So the coward keeps running and to all the freedom loving countries where the governments never, ever spy on citizens or violate anyone’s civil liberties. Some hero the far left has decided is superior to Jesus.

  62. 62
    nineone says:

    Let’s review: Putin stealing, strong-arming, threatening physical harm, jailing dissidents, bashing LGBTs, hating on Muslims (especially Obama) environmentalists and America, loving on some oligarchs and dictators. Taken separately, none of these should raise suspicion. But put it all together and it becomes clear that Putin is putting his hat in the ring to be the GOP candidate for President in 2016. Hell, he might be a little too perfect for the role. Well at least he’s close enough that he can pick up Palin on his way into the country, just scoop her up right off her porch, don’tcha know.

    @Mandalay:
    @Ted & Hellen:

    Poor things. You tried soaking it out, and scrubbing it out. But you still couldn’t get the Black Guy out of the White House. Perhaps white hoods and a posse of domestic terrorists will get peoples attention and drive your point(?) home.

    Nah, you’d still be asswipes. You just wouldn’t be pretending to be our asswipes. Please, do go on. And on. And on…..

  63. 63
    Suffern ACE says:

    I am rooting for him to get to Iceland, which he could from St. Petersburg. Looking at where air Iceland flies, Russia is probably the only country with a direct flight where he wouldn’t be pulled off the plane by the local authorities.

  64. 64
    El Cid says:

    It was believeable up until the point about Greenwald not responding to a request for comments.

  65. 65
    gbear says:

    @different-church-lady:

    I also remember how that movie ends. I wish the same fate for Snowden.

  66. 66
    Valdivia says:

    @Suffern ACE:

    Nope, he is on his way to venezuela via Cuba. He is under the protection of their diplomats until his flight tomorrow. They picked him up at the tarmac per Russian press and Interfax

  67. 67
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Suffern ACE: Seemingly credible journalists are reporting that he’s going to Havana and then on to Caracas, perhaps after spending the night in the Venezuelan embassy in Moscow. Supposedly, Venezuelan diplomats met his plane in Moscow. Of course, maybe it’s all misdirection. Who knows?

  68. 68
    different-church-lady says:

    Personally, I’m really looking forward to Snowden’s statement about Russia’s great history of spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.

  69. 69
    Mandalay says:

    @piratedan:

    If someone is protesting government action and engaging in civil disobedience, what do they do?

    You are asking the wrong question.

    Try asking yourself this one: If someone is protesting government action and engaging in civil disobedience, what does the government do?

  70. 70
    Woodrowfan says:

    @geg6: amazing isn’t it. And now we know that only China, Russia, Cuba and Venezuela are safe places because every other nation in the world would deport anyone the US would demand.

  71. 71
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    @different-church-lady:

    As a libertarian Snowden would probably feel right at home with most of the Russian oligarchs.

  72. 72
    geg6 says:

    @Mandalay:

    The government does what governments do. Heroes for civil liberties and disobedience, however, do not usually show a record of running away from the consequences of their actions, let alone run to every country with a poorer record on civil liberties than the one he/she is supposedly protesting.

  73. 73
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @different-church-lady: Not to mention the restraint and humaneness by which they handle suspected terrorists and the people in proximity to them.

  74. 74
    Woodrowfan says:

    I’d be more impressed with Snowden as some sort of civil liberties hero is all he revealed was that the NSA was listening to US citizen’s phones calls. But he’s revealed a lot more than possible violations of the 4th amendment. Daniel Ellsberg did the nation a service by revealing the Pentagon Papers. He din;t run around to other countries trying to sell every classified document that crossed his desk.

  75. 75
    Smiling Mortician says:

    @Mandalay: Kinda depends on your definition of “engaging in civil disobedience,” dunnit? I mean, what are we talking here? Chanting and marching in the streets? Or buggering off to China with state secrets? Almost the same thing, I guess.

  76. 76
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    I can’t really blame Snowden for trying to find a reasonable place to go. It is pretty clear that, while he may view himself as a whistleblower a la Ellsberg, he did not put a huge amount of thought into the “what happens next” part of the equation.

  77. 77
    jeffreyw says:

    @different-church-lady: I remember watching that movie on the silver screen. I am just a tad bummed about my memory of it, I would have sworn the name of the radio station was KORN.

  78. 78
    Tripod says:

    You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here…..

  79. 79
    geg6 says:

    @Woodrowfan:

    The really sad thing for me is that I would have supported him (with some deep reservations because I really don’t find his “revelations” all that revelatory) if he’d stuck around and showed the courage of his supposed convictions. But he’s a coward and so arrogant that that he thinks he can fool us all into believing that the Chinese, Russian, Cuban and Venezuelan governments are bastions of FREEDUMB!

  80. 80
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @nineone:

    But you still couldn’t get the Black Guy out of the White House.

    Obama is unable to investigate suspected war criminals and show consistency in pursuing that “rule of law” thingie BECAUSE HE IS BLACK?

    I did not know that.

    Actually, he is also half white, but don’t let that spoil your “obama sucks because he’s black” narrative.

  81. 81
    Ted & Hellen says:

    Wow. I was not aware that geg6 is as dumb as it is.

    And it is always instructive to be reminded of the really deep, twisted streak of authoritarianism among the dominant commenting clique at BJ.

  82. 82
    Redshirt says:

    As any Freeper will tell you, Russia is the home of Freedom and American values these days. We need a strong leader like Putin here, one committed to Freedom!

  83. 83
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    Has it actually been established that Edward Snowden has information of value to any government? Does he in fact have some idea of where he’s going, and what deals he’ll do once he’s there? I tend to think he doesn’t, that he’s just running in a blind panic. If, as I also suspect, he hasn’t got enough saleable intel to set him up for life somewhere safe from extradition to the US, how does he plan to make a living after this?

  84. 84
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @geg6: It is easy to talk about bravery and cowardice over a cup of coffee on a Sunday morning. I don’t think Snowden is doing himself any favors with what he is doing right now, but he is in a bind – of his own making, sure – and I don’t think that very many people are able to do what Ellsberg did by turning himself in.

  85. 85
    Mandalay says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I can’t really blame Snowden for trying to find a reasonable place to go.

    Exactly. Snowden can never have a life outside of jail in the United States, yet some here think that he still should have remained here. He should have permitted the government he has exposed and embarrassed to decide what punishment he “deserves”.

    Daniel Ellsberg didn’t flee to China so why should anyone else?

  86. 86
    Richard Fox says:

    @Tripod: Every new beginning comes from some other beginning’s end…..

  87. 87
    geg6 says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Actually, he is also half white, but don’t let that spoil your “obama sucks because he’s black” narrative.

    Been hanging around Red State and Free Republic again, Timmeh?

  88. 88
    nineone says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Actually, he is also half white, but don’t let that spoil your “obama sucks because he’s black” narrative.

    Well, you certainly don’t let it spoil yours.

  89. 89
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    Snowden is actually a humanitarian. He fled America to obviate the months of blog flame wars that would have broken out had he remained and stood trial.

  90. 90
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mandalay: OTOH Snowden doesn’t seem to have dropped anything that is particularly revelatory. His actions jumpstarted discussions, but really didn’t add much in the way of information. If you are going to face life in prison or permanent exile, wouldn’t you want to expose something new? Cost/benefit and all that.

  91. 91
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Amir Khalid: Beats the heck out of me. It may be that he’s sailing along on political value only at this point rather than actionable intelligence. Certainly he gave the Chinese a useful rejoinder to US cyber-hacking charges, if not any hard info. I’m agnostic on the “Snowden: devil or angel” question.

  92. 92
    The Dangerman says:

    Putin proceeded to ask Snowden if he wanted to see Putin’s pole dance.

  93. 93
    geg6 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Oh, blow it out your ass. I’m not the one asshats like T&H and Mandalay are trying to paint as a martyr. He’s set himself up as the champion of freedom and civil liberties. If he’s going to blow his own horn, he needs to be as courageous as those who have actually BEEN champions of freedom and civil liberties. No one said it’s easy. I’ve actually known real life civil disobedience heroes and they walked the walk. Fuck him and all his groupies. They’re idiots, every one of them.

  94. 94
    Cacti says:

    Yesterday, Nutroots Nation booed Nancy Pelosi over this sack of shit.

  95. 95
    rachel says:

    @different-church-lady: I hated that pointless movie.

  96. 96
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    I’m agnostic on that too. Snowden’s actions might not be purposeful enough for us to classify him either way.

  97. 97
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @geg6: Cranky, are we? I love the level of nuance you bring to this discussion. The only choices are coward or martyr? Blow it out your own ass.

  98. 98
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @geg6:

    Been hanging around Red State and Free Republic again, Timmeh?

    Typical. And the answer is no. Never. Not once.

    But I’m sure you go frequently to feed your outrage.

    Now back to the point: Is there some reason it is improper or racist to mention the clear fact that BO is half white?

  99. 99
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @nineone:

    Actually, Obama sucks because he’s a turncoat authoritarian corporatist lackey.

    Could you explain to me how his half blackness factors in?

  100. 100
    piratedan says:

    @Mandalay: that’s easy, the government arrests them. Then they’re given a forum during their trial to present their side of the story, as has been the case with Ghandi, MLK, Ginsberg ad infinitum. If the evidence is compelling, they are exonerated, even cited as heroes.

    true?

    I’ve never taken the position as if this government couldn’t be doing something illegal (unlikely given this administration, but if it was happening and there was proof that laws were being broken…) but if you’re playing the civil disobedience card or casting yourself into the outraged ideologue role then there are the examples that have been given or accepted by folks as to what your behavior should be. Maybe GG and Snowden are breaking down the fourth wall intellectually or perhaps we’re simply not tuned into the overarching evil that this administration is capable of (after all, he sent the seal team after OBL and has no issues with droning people from the skies) but your hero of our collective right to privacy has a strange way of behaving since he’s not following the previously plotted dance steps.

    You tell me to take it on faith….that THIS government can’t be trusted. Yet all that I’ve read indicates that THIS administration is the one that added checks and balances to the existing data gathering protocol and has done what they could by making this part of the Patriot Act more transparent. If these guys are the rat bastards that you allege, why would they declassify, almost immediately upon the breaking of this “story”, how the process works and what it entails?

    An even better question…why wouldn’t the R’s dogpile onto this relentlessly considering how they’ve beaten Benghazi to death if there had been a real handle on misdeeds from this administration?

    I don’t have faith that GG or Snowden are heroes. GG has had an axe to grind with this Administration forever and as of yet, in the three weeks that this story has been walking and talking, has he offered (via Snowden) one salient example of the US using the surveillance mechanisms that are in place to subvert the law as it exists?

    Does this mean that we shouldn’t have a national discussion on the Patriot Act? No, we should and have been in the press and on these forums
    Does this mean that I am unaware of the abuses that can be performed with this kind of data? No, but I’ve yet to see that any of these abuses have taken place.

  101. 101
    The Friendly Libertarian says:

    Hahahahahaha. Suck it Uncle Sam.

    Thank God for Putin.

  102. 102
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    You brought it up. So you tell us.

  103. 103
    Kropadope says:

    @Mandalay:
    He “embarrassed” the government by revealing what anyone with a functioning brain who was paying attention when the USA PATRIOT Act was passed would already know was happening? No, just a thief, coward, and brainwashed fool.

    This whole episode with Snowden is pretty revealing of a trait I’ve noticed among Libertarians. This dude’s running to and hiding in Communist nations, nations dominated by Communists, or formerly Communist nations. For many of these people, Libertarianism; which they present not usually as limited government, but anarchy; is a second-best alternative to the Communism which is their true-desire.

    My closest friend has been caught up in Libertarian hysteria for years, but that doesn’t stop him from talking about how wonderful it would be if the government banned the production of cars or gave away free health-care (no taxes needed to support these programs, naturally).

  104. 104
    The Friendly Libertarian says:

    The whole world is finally standing up to the crimes of our Federal Government, they’re sick of it, just like we are of their oppression fro Waco to Ruby Ridge to Julian Assange.

  105. 105
    CMReaK says:

    @Mandalay:

    Actually, from what I heard yesterday, each of the charges that he’s facing carry a maximum sentence of 10 years. If he were to make a compelling case for mitigating factors (patriotism, conscience, 4th amendment, etc) he could be acquitted or receive very lenient sentencing. For example, one can be made to serve sentences on multiple convictions consecutively or concurrently, or the judge could hand down something less than the maximum. So say he is convicted and gets the full ten years for each charge but serves them concurrently. He’d be out in 10 years and making zillion dollar book deals. He’d be able to live freely and be with his family. The assertion that he’s facing utter doom in returning to face charges sounds pretty flimsy to me.

  106. 106
    The Friendly Libertarian says:

    Maybe Snowden can get a gig on RT.

  107. 107
    GregB says:

    When does Snowden meet with Zawahiri?

  108. 108
    Mandalay says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    OTOH Snowden doesn’t seem to have dropped anything that is particularly revelatory

    Indeed. At least not publicly.

    It’s interesting to see the attacks that build against Snowden. One which is popular here is that he hasn’t told us anything we didn’t already know, and another is that he has endangered national security.

    Neither argument is necessarily valid, but they can’t both be valid.

  109. 109
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Cacti:

    Yesterday, Nutroots Nation booed Nancy Pelosi over this sack of shit.

    I know, how dare they, right?

    Nancy Impeachment Is Off The Table Pelosi is Beltway Royalty whose generous forays amongst the lower classes should not be besmirched by such impudent unpleasantness.

    She and Mr. Obama work hard to secretly keep track of all of us and we should be thankful! Thankful, dammit!

  110. 110
    geg6 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    No, coward and martyr are most certainly NOT the only choices. But in order to be a martyr, as our friends Mandalay and T&H seem to think he is, he had to be willing to face the consequences. My acquaintances, the ones who actually participated in civil disobedience, didn’t run away from the authorities in the South when confronted by them. They stood fast and accepted whatever came their way. Neither of them died, but they were willing to risk death if that is what it took.

    Snowden risked exactly nothing. He’s no hero and is certainly not a person worthy of admiration or emulation. I only hope he’s happy in whatever hellhole he finally lands.

  111. 111
    lojasmo says:

    @Mandalay:

    Considering that HK has a terrible freedom record, and has an extradition agreement with the US your (and Snowden’s) arguments are completely invalid. Try again.

  112. 112
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Cranky, are we? I love the level of nuance you bring to this discussion. The only choices are coward or martyr? Blow it out your own ass.

    Intra-Bot slap fights!

  113. 113
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mandalay:

    Indeed. At least not publicly.

    If he was being revelatory to other countries, he loses any and all sympathy. As of right now, the most sympathetic view of the guy is that he is a not very good whistleblower. If he has a shitload of real secrets and is trading them for safety, he is, at best, an idiot.

    @geg6: I never called him a martyr. Also, there can be a difference between whistleblowing and civil disobedience. It looks to me like Snowden wasn’t trying to practice civil disobedience, so it is rather unfair to hold him to those standards, YMMV.

  114. 114
    Cassidy says:

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    The whole world is finally standing up to the crimes of our Federal Government, they’re sick of it, just like we are of their oppression fro Waco to Ruby Ridge to Julian Assange.

    You don’t know many people do you? The vast majority could give a shit.

    @Mandalay: But this is stuff we already knew, at least as early as 2006. Personally, I have zero doubt that this kind of thing has been going on as far back as the 90’s for internet communication, and at least the 80’s for telephone and cellular communication. This is what intelligence agencies do: gather intelligence. If you think this is a new thing, you’re naive.

  115. 115
    Kropadope says:

    @Mandalay:
    Well, I think some people are blending stories. Didn’t a previous leaker (Manning, perhaps?) blow one of our spy’s cover and doom to failure an ongoing mission.

  116. 116
    Cassidy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: When using secrets as currency, it quickly runs out.

  117. 117
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    You brought it up. So you tell us.

    This is of course a bald face lie, common among Bots.

    One of your compadres upthread accused me, for the crime of criticizing Himself, of racism.

    Your compadre brought “it” up. Your compadres always bring “it” up when they’ve got nothing else. So “it” comes up a lot.

    Blow me.

  118. 118
    Cacti says:

    @Cassidy:

    You don’t know many people do you? The vast majority could give a shit.

    Don’t bother. It’s a PRC bot.

  119. 119
    Mandalay says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    The only choices are coward or martyr?

    You certainly shouldn’t come here for nuance.

    The coward-martyr angle on BJ is no different to Bush’s “Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists”, except Bush was a lot brighter than some of the posters here.

  120. 120
    Cassidy says:

    @Cacti: I think it’s a sock puppet of one of our resident assholes.

  121. 121
    Valdivia says:

    And now Rand Paul had thrown Snowden under the bus. I guess that love-affair is over.

  122. 122
    geg6 says:

    @Mandalay:

    It’s interesting to see the attacks that build against Snowden. One which is popular here is that he hasn’t told us anything we didn’t already know,

    Please explain how this is an attack. I still haven’t read or heard of anything that was surprising in any way, so it’s simply my opinion of his not-so-big revelations. There is nothing there that could be be framed as an “attack”. Now, my calling him a coward certainly could be called that, as it directly attacks his character. But I stand by it anyway since I have yet to see any evidence of courage on his part.

  123. 123
    nineone says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Actually, Obama sucks because he’s a turncoat authoritarian corporatist lackey.

    Could you explain to me how his half blackness factors in?

    Actually, all that has more to do with his half whiteness.

    Now THAT’S racist.

    Ha! Beat ya to it.

  124. 124
    GregB says:

    Breaking News: Snowden planning to head from Venezuela to Mordor.

  125. 125
    Cassidy says:

    Ted & Hellen says: I don’t want to live in a world without pie.

    God(s) if this were true. I’d make it my mission to eradicate pie from the planet. Unfortunately, we are stuck with race baiting, boorish attempts to be vile and insulting, and pathetic martyrdom when it’s called on its bullshit. If only once it would do the right thing and find a quiet, yet painful way to end its lonely existence.

  126. 126
    geg6 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    He’s not a whistleblower either. Nothing I’ve yet seen shows that any of the information gathered has been used illegally or that the gathering of it is illegal. Government whistleblowers are usually uncovering illegal activity by the government. That, so far, is not what Snowden has done. And I have seen no evidence that he ever will.

    He didn’t like the data gathering (and FTR, I’m not so crazy about it either). But I still haven’t seen anything illegal about it. Now, if he wanted to change the laws in regard to this, I’d have some respect for him. But he decided it wasn’t worth sticking around his native country to do that, so no respect deserved.

  127. 127
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @geg6: Dooming oneself to perpetual exile, takes no courage? To be fair, I don’t think that Sowden thought through what was going to come after his big moment. That doesn’t make him a coward; it might just make him foolish.

    @geg6: Hence my “not very good” comment.

  128. 128
    piratedan says:

    @GregB: he’s gonna have to watch his ass if he takes the path thru the Mines of Moria

  129. 129
  130. 130
    different-church-lady says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    His actions jumpstarted discussions flamewars, but really didn’t add much in the way of information.

    You’re welcome.

  131. 131
    piratedan says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: he made that call OO, none of the other civil disobedience examples cited earlier left the country. Not saying that the action couldn’t be warranted, but does the US really have a track record of disappearing people that disagree with it?

  132. 132
  133. 133
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @different-church-lady: Correction cheerfully adopted.

  134. 134
    different-church-lady says:

    amk: close your damn blockquote tag so we can reply!

  135. 135
    4tehlulz says:

    @GregB: It could be worse. At least it’s not Tel Aviv.

  136. 136
    piratedan says:

    @amk that’s a +1

  137. 137
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    Waco to Ruby Ridge

    Tells us all we need to know about this shitstain.

  138. 138
    different-church-lady says:

    @Cassidy:

    The vast majority could give a shit.

    They could?

  139. 139
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @geg6:

    But in order to be a martyr, as our friends Mandalay and T&H seem to think he is, he had to be willing to face the consequences.

    You realize all of this is happening only in your head, yes?

    He’s not a martyr, asshole. He’s a smart, savvy guy who wants to help his country AND not spend his life in jail as a victim of its current authoritarian regime.

    If this was a Russian exposing Russian surveillance abuses and fleeing to the U.S. you’d be talking out the OTHER side of your mouth. HERO! COURAGEOUS! HONORABLE!

    Not to worry, tender one, BO’s legacy and future career will be fine without your ball licking.

  140. 140
    amk says:

    @different-church-lady: Nope. No bq tags.

    Also. Too. I can see the reply button.

  141. 141
    Cacti says:

    @piratedan:

    he made that call OO, none of the other civil disobedience examples cited earlier left the country. Not saying that the action couldn’t be warranted, but does the US really have a track record of disappearing people that disagree with it?

    Buh buh but…MLK didn’t have to worry about the Patriot Act!

  142. 142
    different-church-lady says:

    @amk: Sorry, I should have said link tags — the reply button takes you to the link instead of setting up a reply.

  143. 143
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Dooming oneself to perpetual exile, takes no courage?

    It would definitely take courage, and no small amount of it, if it were a purposeful act. Snowden, however, may have just blundered his way into this mess of trouble.

  144. 144
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @piratedan: I don’t disagree with with anything you just said. Except that I don’t think civil disobedience is the right lens with which to view his actions. Again, I think he was trying to be a whistleblower, but he blew the whistle on things that he didn’t like that were not necessarily unlawful. It makes him very bad at whistleblowing. Really, I am praising with faint damns here.

  145. 145
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    If Snowden wants to prove he isn’t a coward he needs to crawl on his knees to the President and apologize for being a racist and then he needs to commit suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head. There is no other way.

  146. 146
    Elizabelle says:

    Top grade snark for this rainy Sunday morning.

    Well done, Ms. Cracker.

  147. 147
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Snowden, however, may have just blundered his way into this mess of trouble.

    I think this quite likely.

  148. 148
    amk says:

    @different-church-lady: Yeah. No provision to close link tag. cole’s vista moment continues.

  149. 149
    Cacti says:

    Brave Sir Snowden ran away
    Bravely ran away away
    When danger reared its ugly head
    He bravely turned his tail and fled
    Yes, brave Sir Snowden turned about
    And gallantly he chickened out
    Bravely taking to his feet
    He beat a very brave retreat

    Bravest of the brave, Sir Snowden!

  150. 150
    piratedan says:

    @Cacti: well we all know that America was a kindler, gentler place to be for its african-american citizens in the mid 60’s than it is to be a middle class white guy today.

  151. 151
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    He’s not a martyr, asshole. He’s a smart, savvy guy who wants to help his country…

    I know that based on past experience I shouldn’t do you the courtesy of an earnest reply, but I must point out that even a cursory examination of Snowden’s statements indicate he is more concerned with a global view of information and privacy rights than he is with “helping” the good old USA fuck yeah in particular.

  152. 152
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Cassidy:

    Ah, the corpulent alleged PTSD victim undulates its way out of bed at long last.

    Please take your meds today.

  153. 153
    Cacti says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    If Snowden wants to prove he isn’t a coward

    He should probably stop acting like one.

  154. 154
    Joey Maloney says:

    Guardian columnist Glenn Greenwald did not immediately respond to a request for comments.

    That’s how I knew this was not an authentic news story.

  155. 155
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @different-church-lady: I’m not sure he thinks there should even be countries…

  156. 156
    Comrade Mary says:

    @pamelabrown53: Dudes, he’s on the west coast! He very rarely posts in the morning.

  157. 157
    geg6 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Well, his name had already given us all we needed to make that judgment really. But yeah, just good to have that confirmation.

  158. 158
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Of course, you have to remember what passes for brave on Balloon Juice. A bunch of elderly white shut-ins voting for a non-Republican – and a black one at that! – for the first time in their lives. Ha. When you ski the K12, the Olympics looks easy.

  159. 159
    different-church-lady says:

    @amk: Thus, making him a true Patriot! (nyuk-nyuk-nyuk)

  160. 160
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Comrade Mary: That’s no excuse.

  161. 161
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think you’ve got it about right. If the resulting hullabaloo results in a review and repeal of PATRIOT Act provisions (and I’ll believe that when I see it), then huzzah. But Snowden will deserve about as much credit for it as Mrs. O’Leary’s cow deserves for the skyline of modern Chicago.

  162. 162
    geg6 says:

    @Cacti:

    Heh. Exactly.

  163. 163
    different-church-lady says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: That would be a start, I suppose…

    (*Not intended to be a factual statement)

  164. 164
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Better Off Dead reference. Excellent.

  165. 165
    Cacti says:

    @piratedan:

    well we all know that America was a kindler, gentler place to be for its african-american citizens in the mid 60′s than it is to be a middle class white guy today.

    White males have always been the real victims in this country. It was only with the greatest sadness that they’ve used cattle prods, fire hoses, dogs, and bombs against people of color trying to exercise the most basic of rights in our democratic republic.

  166. 166
    different-church-lady says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think you’ve got it about right. If the resulting hullabaloo results in a review and repeal of PATRIOT Act provisions (and I’ll believe that when I see it), then huzzah.

    By the time Snowden, Greenwald, and the far left are done with their act, it will probably result in an entrenchment of the Patriot act.

  167. 167
    piratedan says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: np, the problem that I have with the whistleblowing lens is that one generally cites wrongdoing and policy transgressions. Usually doesn’t involve the downloading of classified government documents to share with foreign entities. Guy acts like a spy, imho uses Greenwald as a beard to cover his ass on his way out the door. Trying not to read too much into what has been said but focusing more on what he’s allegedly done. Actions louder than words and all that.

  168. 168
    Mike in NC says:

    Who will play Snowden in the movie, Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp?

  169. 169
    Comrade Mary says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: /sneaks away for a post-bike-ride nap

  170. 170
    Goblue72 says:

    Man a lot of you are gullible.

  171. 171
    amk says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: What a bravado calling out the bravado of bj’ers. Hero!

  172. 172
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Comrade Mary: I am about to the do the bike ride thing. But it is steamy outside and the a/c is nice. But I shall go. Soon.

  173. 173
    different-church-lady says:

    @rachel:

    I hated that pointless movie.

    Well then you’re gonna love the next few days, because it’s going to unfold like a big-budget international remake.

  174. 174
    geg6 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It makes him more than foolish. He’s the one (along with his buddy, Greenwald) who invited those comparisons, what with his idiocy in speculating that he would have been smuggled to Gitmo or killed if he had stayed. He’s the one who floated the idea that he was some sort of hero whose very life was being threatened and so he was forced to run to China, where no one’s life is ever threatened for speaking out against the government and where breaking government security laws is misdemeanor.

  175. 175
    4tehlulz says:

    @piratedan: Everything seems to make a lot more sense if his primary employer was the Chinese or the Russian intelligence services, doesn’t it?

  176. 176
    piratedan says:

    @Mike in NC: Jack Black, natch

  177. 177
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mike in NC:

    Kit Harrington.

  178. 178
    Ted & Hellen says:

    Creepy how Obots seem to think once any transgressive secret government program has the fig leaf of “legality,” then that makes everything cool.

    Had the Bots been Colonists, the U.S. would never have been formed. Government without representation was totally “legal, you know, so hey what can you do? meh…

  179. 179
    Cacti says:

    @4tehlulz:

    Everything seems to make a lot more sense if his primary employer was the Chinese or the Russian intelligence services, doesn’t it?

    He’d have probably had a “layover” in Tehran too if they weren’t trying to get the sanctions on them rolled back.

  180. 180
    amk says:

    @Mike in NC: cusack, damon – you know, the usual suspects.

  181. 181
    Roy G. says:

    Wait, i’m confused, I thought Snowden was a Chinese spy, but now he’s really spying for a.) Putin, b.O Castro or c.) Chavez’s ghost? Of course, if he wasn’t such a libertarian punk all so full of himself and his hot pole dancing girlfriend he wouldn’t have betrayed the confidence of his master, er employer and snitched on the NSA who has torched the Constitution to protect us from 9/11 arglebargle blah blah blah.

    Hippie punching Snowden and Greenwald is a feeble distraction tactic, because there is very little of substance to argue against. The list of notable experts who support what he did far outweighs the list of detractors, who are usually of the R-hack or Fox and Friends variety. Gee, who am I going to believe, Bruce Schneier or Steve Doocy?

  182. 182
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @geg6:

    where breaking government security laws is misdemeanor.

    Please. A citation at most. With a stern finger wagging.

  183. 183
    rachel says:

    @different-church-lady: Only with more nihilism and no cool cars.

  184. 184
    Comrade Mary says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I have to get up early all this week just to survive my rides, and/or I’ll be going back to my night rides if necessary.

  185. 185
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Roy G.:

    Who is Snowden REALLY spying for? Whoever is pitching the story in Hollywood right now.

  186. 186
    geg6 says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Try to get the security laws in this country changed. Find a realistic path to it and I’ll be marching right there with you to get it done. Until then, these are the laws of the land. If you plan to practice civil disobedience and claim yourself a hero, then don’t run away. Stay and fight for it. Your buddy Snowden does not have the courage of his convictions. That’s pretty important in a hero, doncha think?

  187. 187
    JPL says:

    When will Greenwald agree to do a sit down chat with Sarah Palin?

  188. 188
    different-church-lady says:

    @4tehlulz: No, it doesn’t: if he were working for a foreign government, it would make far more sense to leave him in place than suck him out and then be extremely public about it.

  189. 189
    Amir Khalid says:

    @amk:
    I’m going to go out on a limb here and pick Dan Radcliffe.

  190. 190
    El Caganer says:

    I don’t think Snowden has revealed anything about government snooping that most Americans who have bothered to think about the issue over the last 10 years didn’t already know or strongly suspect. For something that does come to me as a shock, there’s this: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/201.....ccaGIzD-Uk

  191. 191
    Kropadope says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    It’s not about the “fig-leaf” of legality, but about process-oriented problem solving. Snowden hasn’t done anything to weaken the national security state, hell by bringing in Greenwald all he did was confuse the matter. Sunlight on wrongdoing is a good thing, but not if all you’re really creating is glare.

    Meanwhile, the people who are so very recently up in arms about government surveillance ignore those members of our political class who have been fighting to bring this to our attention or who would be willing to change these programs so as to be effective while better respecting Americans’ freedoms. Instead they just pile up on the most visible public figure available and, regardless of his record, proceed to use him as a cipher to hold all their fear and hatred.

  192. 192
    Cacti says:

    Nancy Pelosi heckler, Ed Snowden enthusiast, and Netroots attendee Marc Perkel (caucasian, middle-age) wonders…

    Should Blacks thank America for ending Slavery?

  193. 193
    different-church-lady says:

    @Roy G.:

    Gee, who am I going to believe, Bruce Schneier or Steve Doocy?

    I suppose being skeptical of both of them never occurred to you?

  194. 194
    Mandalay says:

    @piratedan:

    none of the other civil disobedience examples cited earlier left the country

    For false equivalence this argument really takes the biscuit. We might as well point out at this stage that not only is Snowden no MLK, but he is also no Mother Theresa no Michael Jordan, and no George Washington.

    MLK was constantly bugged and surveilled by the FBI. His flights were monitored. Even if he had wanted to, he would not have been allowed to jump on an international flight if the government thought it would be problematic.

    But let’s keep comparing Snowden with MLK.

    MLK = gooooood, Snowden = baaaaaaad.

  195. 195
    piratedan says:

    @4tehlulz: pragmatically speaking, yes… not saying it’s especially well thought out 11enty dimensional chess on behalf of who is being painted as the heroes but I could be underestimating Snowden. After all, he worked his way up through the ranks to be a sysadmin level contract employee in the defense/intelligence complex for a six figure salary (in Hawaii, COLA may apply) for a single guy without a college degree that’s not too shabby. I would expect that he’s not a dummy,. As to how he may have been recruited or if he sold himself out, who knows… we’ve been told repeatedly not to look at the source but look at what he’s saying, don’t kill the messenger yadda yadda yadda yet all that he’s been saying has been said to the PRC not the US Press.

  196. 196
    amk says:

    @Amir Khalid: So, you’re just going by the looks?

  197. 197
    Mandalay says:

    @different-church-lady:

    I suppose being skeptical of both of them never occurred to you?

    Sorry, only binary choices are allowed on BJ ma’am.

  198. 198
    4tehlulz says:

    @different-church-lady: I didn’t say he was good at it…

  199. 199
    different-church-lady says:

    @piratedan: So this is going to be a comedy?

  200. 200
    Emma says:

    @Betty Cracker: But it won’t. With their antics Greenwald and Snowden have managed to make it all about them. The very vast center (low-information) of America — that has, poll after poll, proven that they prefer perceived safety to freedom — will take a look at them, go pfffft and go back to sleep.

  201. 201
    kindness says:

    But who wants to live in Russia?

    Visit it maybe…..uh, ok, no, not even that really. Plenty of vodka lots of other places.

    @Emma: yea none of us like it confirmed that the things we didn’t want our government doing, does anyway. It isn’t an excuse for our government’s behavior but really. Every government that can does this. We just saw that with England and they all do it.

  202. 202
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @piratedan: Eh, I am going with libertarian douchebag who thought he was doing the “right thing” but fucked it up in a wide variety of ways because he is, as mentioned earlier, a libertarian douchebag.

  203. 203
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @geg6:

    You are insane, or just trolling.

    YOU are the one throwing around your fantasy images of what it takes to be a hero, or a martyr, or to do civil disobedience JUUUUUUST right so that you approve.

    The man is mostly a whistle blower, and we need a lot more of them. And a whistle blower does not owe it to his country to spend the rest of his life in prison without a fair or speedy trial (Bradley Manning, hello?). I look forward to him raising hell from overseas until the CIA kills him and then we all pretend it was an innocent car crash in which the car’s engine was thrown sixty feet from the car.

    I look forward to Obama and the Dem congress offering him immunity from prosecution so he can return and these vital issues can be hashed out in a clear and open court of law. hahahahahahahahaha…

  204. 204
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Cacti:

    That tells us quite a bit about our Nancy Pelosi heckling asshat, doesn’t it?

  205. 205
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Narrarator: .. and that day the seeds were planted for an unlikely friendship based on the peculiar art of Savage Steve Holland.

  206. 206
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Emma:

    With their antics Greenwald and Snowden have managed to make it all about them.

    This is where they fail.

  207. 207
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    …and we need a lot more of them.

    How big an island do you think Iceland is?

  208. 208
    piratedan says:

    @Mandalay: and MLK proves this by going to South Africa to complain about US treatment of blacks……

  209. 209
    different-church-lady says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Not bug, feature!

  210. 210
    Cacti says:

    @AkikoFujita
    #Snowden’s US passport revoked on Saturday 6/22. Senior US official tells @ABC: “We have little idea how he left Hong Kong”

    Hmmm…revoked passport but making multiple foreign stops.

    I’m sure they’d do the same thing for all non-assets.

  211. 211
    piratedan says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: could be, I’m open to that as well, call it the Watergate Burglary of Civil Disobedience/Whistleblowing

  212. 212
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Cacti:
    The load of insulting rubbish he serves up in that post sounds about right for one who fancies his bad self to be “the most dangerous mind on the Internet”.

  213. 213
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Emma:

    The very vast center (low-information) of America — that has, poll after poll, proven that they prefer perceived safety to freedom — will take a look at them, go pfffft and go back to sleep.

    You seem awfully riled up about this meaningless and inconsequential Snowden affair, considering that it all just doesn’t matter in the end.

  214. 214
    piratedan says:

    @Cacti: I’m sure that Hong Kong didn’t get the memo or perhaps because he has a revoked passport, there’s no possible way for us to extradite him :-)

  215. 215
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Hey, you see this boat you’re on with us? You can get off the thing any time you want, you know.

  216. 216
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    With their antics Greenwald and Snowden have managed to make it all about them.

    Only for the weirdos who live and die by their hatred for Glenn Greenwald.

    Let’s try this: The only way Barack Obama got to the White House was by making it all about HIM. “hope and change, goddamit!”

    Remember all those posters with his, oh my god, FACE on them!? HE MADE IT ABOUT HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIM, dear god…

  217. 217
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I know, right? How dare anyone heckle Nancy Schmancy Fancy Impeachment Is Off the Table For You Losers Pelosi?

    Who do they think they are?

    RACCCCCIIIIIIST!

  218. 218
    Mandalay says:

    @piratedan:

    Trying not to read too much into what has been said but focusing more on what he’s allegedly done.

    Riiiiiiiight – that’s why you keep ranting about Snowden going to Syria and North Korea and Pakistan and Cuba and Venezuela.

    You’re truly interested in “focusing more on what he’s allegedly done”. Got it.

  219. 219
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Kids, didn’t you guys get the memo? We have to stop paying attention to personalities and focus on the real issue: the misinformation they’ve presented about what the documents mean.

  220. 220
    El Caganer says:

    @Cacti: Good Christ. Every Confederate-apology argument ever made, all in one place, with the added benefit of bad spelling.

  221. 221
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @different-church-lady:

    True, although it ticks me off that an important subject that needs discussion has this diversionary egomania running wild at the same time. If these guys were REALLY about the discussion, they wouldn’t be like John McCain on a Sunday show screaming ME ME ME!

  222. 222
    Liberty60 says:

    @geg6:

    what with his idiocy in speculating that he would have been smuggled to Gitmo or killed if he had stayed

    Except, it pretty much looks like thats what his fate would have been had he stayed. He would be in a jail cell next to Bradley Manning.

    Look I know you are hanging your hatred of Snowden on the theory that what he revealed is all legal, but I am not seeing the logic here.

    If it is legal, why the fuss? If it is info we already knew, where is the crime?

    Why doesn’t the NSA just boast about it, and make glossy TV ads like the Air Force does (SCENE- NSA HQ- agents reading emails- “This isn’t science fiction- we do this every day!”). Because they want to make it legal, yet hidden from the American people. (Pro-tip- AQ already knows about this stuff)

    I think this dilemma is what causes people to fixate on Snowden’s lack of martyrish behavior, trying to argue “Oh, I would totally support him, but he didn’t stay and face the music!”

    WTF does “support him” mean? You would believe the leaks? You would get miffed at the Administration? That your opinion of the NSA would be different somehow?

    What Snowden did was reveal information that most of us had suspected, but couldn’t prove- and this embarrassed the Administration, and has forced all of us to confront uncomfortable truths.

  223. 223
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Hey, you see this boat you’re on with us?

    Could you explain exactly who “us” is, in your mind? And why it’s important to you to so frequently identify yourself as part of a larger group that exists in pixels and cybrons on the Intertubes and in your head? Thanks.

    Also, do you see yourself as someone who in some way owns or controls the “boat?”

  224. 224
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    That would be you, shitstain.

  225. 225
    amk says:

    @Ted & Hellen: And he beat the crap out of the racists and their party. Twice.

  226. 226
    Cacti says:

    @Mandalay:

    “focusing more on what he’s allegedly done”

    The only facts that don’t seem to be in dispute is that he purloined classified information and fled the country with it.

  227. 227
    different-church-lady says:

    @Liberty60:

    He would be in a jail cell next to Bradley Manning.

    I had no idea Snowden had re-enlisted in the Army.

  228. 228
    Cacti says:

    @El Caganer:

    Good Christ. Every Confederate-apology argument ever made, all in one place, with the added benefit of bad spelling.

    T&H finds it compelling.

    Hmmm…maybe we’ve finally discovered its identity.

  229. 229
    Amir Khalid says:

    @amk:
    Seriously, I think Dan Radcliffe is a damn good actor, smart enough to understand Snowden and play him well.

  230. 230
    Emma says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Barack Hussein Obama is duly elected President of the United States twice. Fear, hatred, and envy erupts in small minds.

    I would say seek help, but I’m not kind enough to care.

  231. 231
    A Humble Lurker says:

    @different-church-lady:
    Well, whatever it is Snowden’s up to, he doesn’t seem to be extremely good at it.

    ETA: What 4tehlulz said.

  232. 232
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen: I think if I just poke you a little bit more I could probably get you to start talking about Sandusky again.

  233. 233
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    That would be you, shitstain.

    Snappy! New! Fresh and different!

  234. 234
    Cacti says:

    @Liberty60:

    He would be in a jail cell next to Bradley Manning.

    Yes, and?

    Committing felonies tends to lead to criminal prosecution. I know that’s like totez unfair and shit to the special snowflake generation.

  235. 235
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Cacti:

    Aye, and that’s the rub.

    My greatest concern with all this is the utter stupidity of having a fucking CONTRACTOR have access to all this classified shit. Admittedly, a great deal of things that are “classified” have very little objective reason to be (there’s wide potential for using classification as an ass covering method, for example) but somehow Snowden is a hero for doing things that we rightly condemned Dick Cheney for doing. Because Ron Paul RELOVEUTION and whatever.

  236. 236
    amk says:

    @Amir Khalid: Agreed. Looks is just a plus.

    ETA: Looks visa vis snowden.

  237. 237
    different-church-lady says:

    @A Humble Lurker: Being a libertarian Paul-tard? No, he’s being extremely good at that.

  238. 238
    piratedan says:

    @Mandalay: I mentioned it once, as snark, since he’s already visiting so many of the the other “friendly rivals” we have in the world today. Other reports have him jetting to Cuba and Venezuela (other countries in the “Pro-USA” club, ‘natch) as possible destinations after he leaves Moscow with his recently revoked US passport.

    you, on the other hand, still apparently have a firm grasp of that aforementioned broom handle.

  239. 239
    amk says:

    @Cacti: special snowflake generation. Ha.

  240. 240
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @amk:

    And he beat the crap out of the racists and their party. Twice.

    Revealing…the physical violence you use in your description here.

    And of course, in your rush to focus on Barack’s political career and great/valiant accomplishments, you evaded the point: He won by MAKING IT ALL ABOUT HIM. Hope and change!

    So now you have to loathe and despise him.

    Also, his double wins mean that we are collectively a post-racist society, no?

  241. 241
    ChrisNYC says:

    @Mandalay: You know, guy, the entire Snowden story is completely incoherent. That’s not the fault of the people who aren’t ready to lionize him or are just trying to figure out what his deal is. That is the fault of Snowden.

    The first blockbuster story was wrong, either purposefully or through lack of understanding. He said he wasn’t hiding. Then he said he was hiding but only because he didn’t think he did anything wrong. Then he said he was hiding because he was afraid of being executed by the US government. Then he said he can’t be tried because he can’t get a fair trial.

    He said his goal was to show things to the American people about what the NSA was doing here, so that we could decide. But also the “global victimization of privacy,” whatever that means, to Snowden, if he ever decides to explain. Then he started talking about “legitimate” targets for espionage, apparently the Snowden exception to victimization of privacy. And throw in all the Russia and China stuff.

    Sure seems like he didn’t figure out what he thinks or what his plan or goals were before he decided to take the platform (very heartening, that). He’s left a hell of a lot of holes — or he’s being badly used and mischaracterized by GG and the Guardian. Sorry, people are allowed to talk about that. And nobody has to conduct that discussion in the way that you deem proper.

  242. 242
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    @Ted & Hellen:
    @Ted & Hellen:
    You always get like this when it dawns on you that you’re losing the argument. I feel sorry for you.

  243. 243
  244. 244
    Liberty60 says:

    @Cacti:
    Even MLK wasn’t MLK. Or at least, he wasn’t the MLK that we see today represented.

    MLK was a savvy politician, who angered a lot of the more radical leftists by being too moderate and willing to compromise with the government. He picked and chose his battles, and shrewdly knew who to ally with, and who to distance.

    Most of the criticisms of Obama and Snowden both, were made against MLK in his day.

    Pick any activist leader- Eugene Debs, Margaret Sanger, Harvey Milk, Cesar Chavez- they all were messy, complicated, and deeply flawed individuals. Its only an untimely death or a career spent carefully airbrushing away the warts that causes them to be seen so beautifully today.

  245. 245
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @amk:

    A totally unforgiveable sin.

  246. 246
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Cacti:

    T&H finds it compelling.

    Naturally, you’re lying. Haven’t read it, doesn’t matter to me.

    Other people heckled Herself too. Are they all racist? Could you get back to me on the content of their countertops please?

  247. 247
    Elie says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    How can you know he hasn’t? Some of the information may be highly contextual — known only to specific operations. There might be commands and programming instructions that only specific end users would know and it might possibly take some time for the beneficiaries of this information to know what they have. You should not expect that we would “Know” in some obvious way to us, necessarily. Snowden might not even know — depending on what he ripped off.

    He is a coward, a thief and possibly a traitor. Before GG tightens that seal he’s made with his mouth on this guy’s butt, he better make sure he has not been party not to some banal “leaks”, but to damaging information — not to the US ego, but to our interests, citizen lives and allies. I would not be unhappy seeing him in a stylish one piece in the designer color of his choice…

    As for those who think he is somehow to be given a pass because he couldn’t have foreseen the reaction that the US would have and that he might have to beat a path — well — you haven’t been paying attention. He let his base of operations in Hawaii weeks ago or HK. He obviously thought THAT far ahead and its interesting that China factored so early in his path.

    He stinks to high heaven. Lefties need to slow up and really take in what is going on with this guy. You do the cause of accountability for our data no benefit by supporting a traitor and a thief who may actually wish our country ill… that is the breaking point. OK — he might not be a patriot — but does he wish this country harm? I’m not sure that is clear at this point but its not looking good for the guy.

  248. 248
    amk says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Yup. He did. Twice. Hence all your 24×7 whiny butthurts here.

  249. 249
    burnspbesq says:

    There’s only one place on Earth where Snowden will be truly safe, and it certainly isn’t Venezuela.

    If the CIA puts out an RFP for a hit, most of the proposals will come from the police and the army. Chavez accomplished some things, but rooting out corruption wasn’t one of them.

  250. 250
    Cassidy says:

    @different-church-lady: Don’t threaten it with a good time.

  251. 251
    El Caganer says:

    @ChrisNYC: Agree with most of this. I’m not automatically anti-Snowden, but it really sounds like he didn’t have and doesn’t have much of a clue as to what the hell he’s doing.

  252. 252
    Cacti says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Per GG’s own timeline, he began working with Moscow Eddie before he started at Booz Allen. For a lawyer, he’s left himself dangerously open to conspiracy charges.

  253. 253
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    In all seriousness, if his Moscow-Havana flight crosses US airspace, he’s smoked.

    Also, Cuba isn’t the place it once was. Time was when they’d take Black Panthers who murdered cops. Not so much anymore. He’ll probably be ok in Cuba, but the country isn’t te fugitive haven it once was (Havana means haven, get it?)

  254. 254
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Also, his double wins mean that we are collectively a post-racist society, no?

    Only half way, by your own logic.

  255. 255
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    You are insane, or just trolling.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you our operator in the booth at the octoplex down at the mall.

  256. 256
    piratedan says:

    @different-church-lady: #196 doesn’t it seem like one so far? amk and Amir have Radcliffe penned for the lead, I could see Molly Quinn (Castle) as the girlfriend left behind. Cusack as GG (he could certainly lend it more conviction than GG does at least)

  257. 257
    Eric U. says:

    @Liberty60: the vast majority of classified information regards legal activities. In fact, there is a lot of classified information that is public knowlege, but officially confirming it is not a good idea. Government security briefings cover this point at length.

    I hope Snowden didn’t have anything of value, the fact that his employer gave him a batch of classified docs after a very short employment period is disturbing. He seems to have caused some damage on the foreign intelligence front.

  258. 258
    A Humble Lurker says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    So you don’t consider this racist, then? Interesting.

  259. 259
    Cacti says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Other people heckled Herself too. Are they all racist?

    Nope, just the ones that regurgitate neo-confederate tripe on their blogs.

  260. 260
    geg6 says:

    @Liberty60:

    I didn’t know that Snowden had joined the military. And going to prison is not exactly the same as being murdered or thrown in Gitmo. Unpleasant and, no doubt, personally devastating. But not at all the same as he was painting his fate under the repressive American regime of the tyrant, BHO.

  261. 261
    Liberty60 says:

    @Cacti:

    Committing felonies tends to lead to criminal prosecution

    So now with the appeal to authority? Doesn’t that kind of depend on the idea that the authority is just, and right?

    Do you really think the government is just and right in what it is doing?

  262. 262
    different-church-lady says:

    @piratedan:

    doesn’t it seem like one so far?

    Not a funny one, no.

  263. 263
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    @burnspbesq: With very few exceptions, you can easily buy cops, government officials in Central and South America.

  264. 264
    Cacti says:

    @Liberty60:

    So now with the appeal to authority?

    I know, totez unfair that we have to live under the rule of law.

  265. 265
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Emma:

    And again you evade the point. You only concern yourself with EGOMANIA, SELF ABSORPTION, SELF PROMOTION, OMG!!! when you pretend to see it in people you see as obstacles to BO’s political career.

    You’re not a Democrat. You’re an Obamist.

  266. 266
    Mark S. says:

    @Liberty60:

    You would get miffed at the Administration?

    This crowd? Ha! Don’t think so. I would be curious what the reaction would be here if Bush were still president. I doubt it would be so Rah, Rah, NSA!

  267. 267
    Liberty60 says:

    @Eric U.:

    You seem to be saying, “we all know its going on, but lets arrest anyone who speaks about it!”

  268. 268
    Emma says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Sheesh, I have to check behind the dresser. Cockroaches again. Oh well, it’s rainy season.

  269. 269
    amk says:

    @Ted & Hellen: Nice projection, mittbot. You should read about how your candie planned alternative WH (with all the curtains too) even before stupid voters like you spoke.

  270. 270
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @different-church-lady:

    I think if I just poke you a little bit more I could probably get you to start talking about Sandusky again.

    Again, revealing. Anything but the point at hand.

    Petition a front pager for a Sandusky post/thread. I’ll take you on.

    Also, can you explain how thoughts of His political career and anyone who stands as an obstacle to His legacy brought you to thoughts of pedophilia?

    Also, too: The dumbest monkeys are the ones who think they are on the outside, looking in, and being…poked. Hugs.

  271. 271
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Liberty60:

    So, stating fact is an “appeal to authority”?

    Ok, whatever.

  272. 272
    jamick6000 says:

    civil liberties issues aside, it’s great and satisfying to see Snowden tweak the crap out of the national security and media establishments

  273. 273
    Chyron HR says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    You’re not a democrat

    Wait, I thought that not being a Democrat was a good thing? Or does that only apply to you?

  274. 274
    Amir Khalid says:

    @piratedan:
    So we’re ready to write up the Kickstarter proposal?

  275. 275
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mark S.:

    I doubt it would be so Rah, Rah, NSA!

    I don’t see much of that. What I do see are some egomaniacs mugging for cameras.

  276. 276
    piratedan says:

    @Mark S.: I wonder if Snowden even bothers to download those documents in a Bush Presidency, after all, we were living in a Libertarian paradise then.

    although I will say that I was just as pissed at Cheney for outing intelligence assets then (the Palme case) as I am about this one.

  277. 277
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    I bathe in your sweet tears of empathy.

  278. 278
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    If the US government really wants Snowden, they’ll get him. Especially from South America. Either we have good diplomatic relations (eg Argentina) and they’ll hand him over. Or in a place like Venezuela we can get someone to black bag him (or our own black ops guys).

    Depending on what we want from him, he’ll either come back to the states and be prosecuted under the espionage act or get taken to a CIA black site. Given the fact that his first stop was china, I’m going to bet the latter.

  279. 279
    Liberty60 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Oh I agree he broke laws- I am saying that the laws are being used for an unjust purpose, to cover up information not to protect legitimate secrets or lives, but simply to cover up information that is embarrassing.

  280. 280
    geg6 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    After all, laws are made to be broken, amirite? Viva la revolution!

  281. 281
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Cacti:

    OK. Fair enough.

  282. 282
    amk says:

    @jamick6000: He tweaked jackasquat in terms of real policy. It’s been just a clowns show thus far.

  283. 283
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    Tears? What tears? You bathe in vain, for I am not actually weeping.

  284. 284
    tybee says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    shit stain libel

  285. 285
    Cassidy says:

    @amk: Some people are surprised to learn about articles from USA Today in 2006.

  286. 286
    burnspbesq says:

    FWIW, unless there is a superseding indictment filed some time in the future, Snowden is not facing life. All of the charges unsealed on Friday carry a maximum sentence of ten years, so his worst case is 30.

    And I’m sure that T&H’s eloquent defense of Snowden’s heroic whistle-blowing will find its way into the pre-sentencing report and convince the judge to only give him six months of home confinement.

    That is, if he’s convicted. It only takes one fool to hang a Federal jury, and plenty of firebaggers live in the Eastern District of Virginia.

  287. 287
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Chyron HR:

    Wait, I thought that not being a Democrat was a good thing? Or does that only apply to you?

    Where do you freaks get this shit?

    Never said it because the opposite is true: I have been a registered Democrat since 1976. Doesn’t mean I gave up critical thinking. Doesn’t mean I support any freak the party establishment props up, and in the last 20 years that’s a lot of freaks.

  288. 288
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I have been a registered Democrat since 1976.

    And you’ve hated every minute of it.

  289. 289
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Tears? What tears? You bathe in vain, for I am not actually weeping.

    No? You’re not…?! Then in the name of god what is this…liquid?!!!!!

  290. 290
    Eric U. says:

    @Liberty60: feel free to put words in my mouth any time you want. Actually, my words say what they say, nothing more.

    I do happen to enjoy the fact that Obama derangement syndrome may have a positive effect on our privacy. Doesn’t mean I like the fact that Snowden seems to have also damaged legit spying. Spying is a shady business. Doesn’t mean that the U.S. shouldn’t do it.

  291. 291
    Yatsuno says:

    Verdant. Rubber. Spheroids. Dammit.

  292. 292
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen: I dunno, but I do hope it’s not the results of my mentioning Sandusky to you.

  293. 293
    Mandalay says:

    @Liberty60:

    Except, it pretty much looks like thats what his fate would have been had he stayed. He would be in a jail cell next to Bradley Manning.

    Those eager to condemn Snowden for fleeing love invoking false comparisons with Ellsberg and MLK from 40 years ago, and vilifying him for fleeing the country.

    They do not seem so eager to consider the pre-trial treatment that our government imposed on Bradley Manning. A contemporary case, with much closer parallels to Snowden.

    Now why would that be?….

  294. 294
    the Conster says:

    @Mike in NC:

    Ryan Gosling.

  295. 295
    different-church-lady says:

    @Yatsuno: What, Charlie’s alarm clock finally went off?

  296. 296
    burnspbesq says:

    Did I just use “T&H” and “eloquent” in the same sentence?

    Bad me. Bad, bad, bad.

  297. 297
    piratedan says:

    @Amir Khalid: has to be a dark, sardonic comedy, kind of along the lines of Rosencranz and Guildenstern are dead

  298. 298
    Elie says:

    @Liberty60:

    You KNOW that – how?

    Tweaking the government is tweaking our security — at least something to be thought about — seriously — its not a fun thing and I would want to have a non fun, very serious and deliberate approach to any leaks that I might make working for the US government. I would not want to hurt my country or its citizens. That breach of trust should not be relished unless there is something very wrong with the person. Who takes a job with the US government looking to breach its security and interests? I don’t care how much you or I might value the access to information and having more transparency, we all know it can’t be 100% and we definitely do not wish to harm our country or its interests or allies, right?

    I don’t like it when people think its a fun gotcha moment. Makes me wonder what you are really about..

  299. 299
    Cassidy says:

    @burnspbesq: It was sufficiently ironic.

  300. 300
    scav says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    @Ted & Hellen:
    @Ted & Hellen:
    You always get like this when it dawns on you that you’re losing the argument.

    I’ve never seen him otherwise (which rather proves your point). The doggy double-act is consistently unconvincing, even when stumbling happenchance on points of commonality.

  301. 301
    Yatsuno says:

    @Mandalay:

    They do not seem so eager to consider the pre-trial treatment that our government imposed on Bradley Manning.

    Except Manning was in the military justice system not under the DOJ. His treatment was still heinous, but saying that he was being treated this way directly by the government is inaccurate.

  302. 302
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay:

    They do not seem so eager to consider the pre-trial treatment that our government military imposed on Bradley Manning.

    Fixed

    A contemporary case, with much closer parallels to Snowden.

    Snowden is no longer in the Army.

  303. 303
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Ted & Hellen:
    Whatever it is, I can’t see it, If you figure out what it is, you need not share with the class.

  304. 304
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @different-church-lady:

    And you’ve hated every minute of it.

    Even if that were true…why would it disturb you? Why is fealty to a larger group identity so desperately important to you?

    Democratic citizens question and afflict and disturb authority, remember?

    Meanwhile, while I was hating every minute as you say, I voted for Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Clinton, the spineless Gore, and the even more spineless Kerry. 2000 is when the scales began to fall rapidly, and I spared myself the wasted vote for the predictable, corporatist liar Obama.

    Because he is black, naturally.

    Bots are mirror image right wing authoritarians. It’s very strange…but there it is.

  305. 305
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @different-church-lady: Ha! Then Greenwald went on CNN to accuse Gregory of having White House connections.

    The plot thickens! This is a full blown conspiracy, y’all!

  306. 306
    geg6 says:

    @Mandalay:

    Because Manning was in the military, which has, let’s just agree, an totally insane and authoritarian legal system completely separate from the regular US justice system. But that’s true of every military in the history of the world, to be fair.

  307. 307
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    why would it disturb you?

    You misspelled “amuse”

    So, where can we deliver your “RAND PAUL 2016” lawn signs?

  308. 308
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    What I do see are some egomaniacs mugging for cameras.

    What did you see when Obama ran for office?

    How about now, when he gives speeches and hogs all that air time with interviews, press conferences, and other egomaniacal activities? Seems somehow like it’s all about HIM.

    And that bothers me, cause normally only self-deprecating introverts become president.

  309. 309
    geg6 says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Has Greenwald never seen David Gregory?

  310. 310
    Chyron HR says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I have been a registered Democrat since 1976.

    Except you told us you let you proudly let your registration lapse when you moved to Massachusetts.

    In B4 “WAAAH YOU REMEMBER THINGS I SAY THAT’S STALKING”

  311. 311
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Did you request that Sandusky thread? Looking forward to it.

  312. 312
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen: self-correction:

    So, where can we deliver your “RAND PAUL GLENN GREENWALD 2016″ lawn signs?

  313. 313
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ted & Hellen: I bet you are, perv.

  314. 314
    Cassidy says:

    @Chyron HR: It’s piles of shit like it that make me wish M_C still hung around. I would enjoy that exchange.

  315. 315
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @piratedan:

    kind of along the lines of Rosencranz and Guildenstern are dead

    I played Guildenstern in a college production. I knew you would want to know.

  316. 316
    Mandalay says:

    @burnspbesq:

    If the CIA puts out an RFP for a hit, most of the proposals will come from the police and the army. Chavez accomplished some things, but rooting out corruption wasn’t one of them.

    There are some things that money can’t buy.

    If Snowden ends up in Venezuela the PR value to the Venezuelan government would be massive and ongoing, and his murder would be an equally massive PR disaster (which would surely be presented as a CIA hit regardless).

    I am sure the Venezuelan authorities will make it clear that if anyone even dreams of harming a hair on little Edward’s head then their entire family will be eradicated.

    Mustn’t kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

  317. 317
    Eric U. says:

    comparing Snowden to MLK and other heroes is missing the point. This is the whistleblower equivalent of O’Keefe vs. ACORN.

  318. 318
    El Caganer says:

    @different-church-lady: So you’re thinking a Greenwald/Sandusky ticket? I’m not sure that will fly…..

  319. 319
    jamick6000 says:

    @amk: i guess revealing that the DNI lied under oath is nothing.

  320. 320
    Chyron HR says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I voted for Clinton, Gore, and Kerry, but Obama was unacceptable to me. Because he is black, naturally.

    Ha ha, of course not. Out of those four candidates, you found him, and only him, unacceptable for a perfectly valid non-racist reason. I’m sure you’ll share it once you think of what it was.

  321. 321
    Cassidy says:

    @El Caganer: Ted & Hellen likes them a little younger. Greenwald is too old.

  322. 322
    Amir Khalid says:

    Speaking of people’s military service

  323. 323
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @different-church-lady:

    So, where can we deliver your “RAND PAUL 2016″ lawn signs?

    Who’s “we?” You never answer that question, insecure one.

  324. 324
    Elie says:

    @Eric U.:

    Spying IS a legitimate thing the US should be doing — particularly on our opponents. Apparently this guy has released information that we have on China. This is not heroic. This is just plain ol’ treason — . He seems to be taking Julian Assange’s tact that all information should be open and shared — NO secrets anywhere. Of course, he believed that until it came to revealing any of HIS information. Not about that at all, it seems…funny how that goes

  325. 325
    Mandalay says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Snowden is no longer in the Army.

    And Snowden is not a minister or a military analyst either, but I didn’t see you objecting to comparisons with MLK and Ellsberg.

    How unsurprising.

  326. 326
    piratedan says:

    @Amir Khalid: another indictment of THIS administration’s lack of oversight of the Military

  327. 327
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Chyron HR:

    I am honored that you remember that, my little stalker.

    You are correct. However, I did register here so that I could vote for Elizabeth Warren and OMG! Jill Stein.

    OMG YOUR VOTE WAS WASTED HOW DARE YOU.

  328. 328
    nineone says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    I voted for Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Clinton, the spineless Gore, and the even more spineless Kerry. 2000 is when the scales began to fall rapidly, and I spared myself the wasted vote for the predictable, corporatist liar Obama.

    Here’s where you prove how much cooler you are than everybody else.

    Because he is black, naturally.

    Bots are mirror image right wing authoritarians. It’s very strange…but there it is.

    And here is where it all falls apart.

    Less is more, son. Either learn when to say ‘when’, or get some new material. The “rill” kewl kids can spot a narc a mile away.

  329. 329
    Elie says:

    @Mandalay:

    Ha ha ha! What a sticky wicket for such a “hero” — so many good things to say about this…

  330. 330
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @different-church-lady:

    I bet you are, perv.

    I bet you are too, bint.

  331. 331
    jamick6000 says:

    @Cacti:

    Committing felonies tends to lead to criminal prosecution. I know that’s like totez unfair and shit to the special snowflake generation.

    lmao i guess I missed all the wall street prosecutions from the DOJ’s Lanny Breuer and Eric Holder.

  332. 332
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay: I didn’t realize we had a separate justice system for ministers.

  333. 333
    amk says:

    @Mandalay: Aren’t gigi and his bots like you who made MLK/elsburg comparisons to start with? And you’re pissed off at the pushback now ?

  334. 334
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Chyron HR: Who cares if T&H didn’t vote for President Obama? Obama won twice and for me will go down in history as one of our best presidents.

    Will be interesting to see if there are any long term changes to how NSA conducts surveillance of US citizens, which I assume was Snowden’s motive for initially releasing classified info to Greenwald. I don’t get why he then turned around and released confidential material to Hong Kong though.

  335. 335
    amk says:

    @Mandalay: Hugo Chavez is dead, in case you didn’t know. Your utopia doesn’t exist.

    Pity. I liked the guy.

  336. 336
    Davis X. Machina says:

    Spying IS a legitimate thing the US should be doing — particularly on our opponents.

    The emerging consensus here would certainly argue the first point, and probably the second, insofar as we shouldn’t have any ‘opponents’, and to the extent that opinion seems to be somewhat divided on the necessity and desirability of nation-states in the first place.

  337. 337
    Mandalay says:

    @amk:

    Aren’t gigi and his bots like you who made MLK/elsburg comparisons to start with?

    No.

    SATSQ.

  338. 338
    Chris says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    Wait, what?

    Your objection to Obama is that he’s a right wing authoritarian and a corporatist whore… and yet you managed to hold your nose and vote for the man who voted for the Iraq war, and for the man who mainstreamed “Third Way,” DLC triangulation in the Democratic Party (twice) and openly said “the era of big government is over” just in case there was anyone still out there who hadn’t gotten the memo? (And a “liar,” of course – LOLOL! Because politicians are usually such paragons of truth, justice and the American Way).

    Yes, how, how on Earth could anyone possibly wonder if there wasn’t something at work in you other than consistent and principled integrity? It’s just unfathomable.

  339. 339
    amk says:

    @Mandalay: You lie.

  340. 340
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @Mike in NC:
    “Who will play Snowden…”? I’d say PeeWee Herman or Rowan Atkins. (Both will require an audition) I dunno, can Rowan do a passable American accent? The role of Greenwald goes to Adam Sandler.

  341. 341
    lojasmo says:

    @The Friendly Libertarian:

    oppression fro Waco to Ruby Ridge

    Facepalm.

  342. 342
    lojasmo says:

    @Ted & Hellen:

    He’s a smart, savvy guy

    Assuming facts not in evidence.

  343. 343
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    Snowden is 29 going on 30. Some guys who are 29 going on 30 get freaked because they haven’t done anything really big with their lives. Snowden may have freaked and impulsively done something really big without thinking through the aftermath or the consequences. This is just a possible explanation, not a justification.

  344. 344
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Mandalay: Is it shocking to you that some people genuinely do not see Snowden as a hero at all? I don’t see any comparisons between Snowden and Ellsberg or Dr. King. NONE.

    If you do, great. But I’m not sure why those of us who don’t see Snowden as a hero need to defend ourselves. And calling people Obamabots, etc., is juvenile. I love the current President (just like I loved Clinton). Doesn’t mean that he does no wrong, just means that I think he’s doing a pretty good job. I didn’t expect him to be Jesus Christ and he’s not. Ditto Clinton.

    For those who do not agree with the surveillance practices of NSA (like myself), Congress needs to know that the NSA should be reigned in. The bottom line appears to be that in accordance with the Patriot Act, the NSA has done nothing wrong.

  345. 345
    Elie says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    I hear you on the nation-state thing — at least conceptually. Reality is that their is competition even with our allies for certain things that benefit our people. Hell, you have folks fighting over the citing of the fence line between two properties, much less other larger and more complex rights and priveleges. If we do away with nation states, things just get more granular down to the tribal level. You know what THAT looks like already, so give me the nation state.

    I can definitely advocate for and want more accountability of the government for the use of information about its citizens — I want a more transparent process. I know it won’t get 100%. This guy does not represent that to me. He is doing his own thing and the notoriety is his angle. He is more Julian Assange than Daniel Ellsberg. Julian belonged no where and was affiliated with no country although he was Australian by birth. He had a chaotic childhood and immersed himself in data and IT. He had very little concept of the impact of the data on real lives and completely minimized the reality that people could get killed from releases he facilitated…

    We are caught up in this guy’s psychodrama. It is appalling someone like this had access to such high level security data. I hope each agency is evaluating its contractors and doing some psych testing on them. Narcissism and sociopathy are not good things mixed with sensitive data…We need much much fewer contractors and more homegrown development.

  346. 346
    Full Metal Wingnut says:

    I don’t even care about Snowden. What pisses me off is HK and the Russians giving us the finger. Hypocrites.

  347. 347
    Bjacques says:

    Snowden also blew the whistle on GCHQ spying on British subjects for years. It’s not just about us. Or maybe it is. For about a human lifetime, there have always been Those Other Guys routinely spying in their own people, but never us. Never mind it going back at least to Pinkertons; we never talked about it in polite society because we we’re not Those Other Guys. The idea that it’s OK because it’s legal is grotesque. How can we work out the legality of a practice we wouldn’t want to know about even if it weren’t hidden from us?

    The story’s a lot bigger than Snowden. It’s even bigger than Obama, because it’s gone on for many decades.

  348. 348
    different-church-lady says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    I didn’t expect him to be Jesus Christ and he’s not.

    Now you see, that was your mistake: if only you had expected him to be Satan, we’d be living in a liberal utopia right now.

  349. 349
    nineone says:

    @Chris: Tee-hee.

  350. 350
    different-church-lady says:

    @Bjacques: Governments have spies! Thank god Snowden blew the lid off that!

  351. 351
    Liberty60 says:

    @Elie:

    Spying IS a legitimate thing the US should be doing — particularly on our opponents.

    Except what Snowden revealed is that the government is spying on its own citizens. I won’t defend revealing intelligence about spying onother countries- and if he did that, I would support his prosecution.

    But the real act that he is being vilified for, is revealing how much the government is spying on you and me. And my argument is that using the law to prosecute him for that is unjust.

  352. 352
    Redshirt says:

    So much fun dancing to the troll’s tune.

    Maybe one of you will be the one to convince him of the error of his ways. You’ve just got to argue even more logically/passionately.

  353. 353
    Yatsuno says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Governments have spies!

    THEY DO??? I must find my fainting couch immediately!

  354. 354
    different-church-lady says:

    @Redshirt: I would, but we need the eggs.

  355. 355
    scav says:

    @Yatsuno: Speak into the tasselled pillow on the way down if you need anything in the way of verdant spheroids.

  356. 356
    gbear says:

    @Full Metal Wingnut:

    With very few exceptions, you can easily buy cops, government officials in Central and South America.

    So Snowden will buy their protection – with secrets!

  357. 357
    Emma says:

    @Liberty60: But the real act that he is being vilified for, is revealing how much the government is spying on you and me. And my argument is that using the law to prosecute him for that is unjust. The law is the law. If you’re making a statement that the law is bad, and you break it to do it, you invite the consequences.

    More to the point, he didn’t reveal squat. Anyone paying attention knew that the Patriot Act had opened floodgates. But more to the point, everyone paying attention knew that Obama re-instituted some of the checks and balances that had been ignored by the Bush administration.

    What is being missed here are the real problems. The FISA court needs to be made more transparent; what is privacy in the electronic era has to be codified; and there has to be some push back on some of the Supreme Court’s decisions on what law-enforcement can and cannot do None of these things will improve, because the political will behind it isn’t there yet. Snowden’s antics make it even harder.

  358. 358
    Redshirt says:

    Maybe he can rent a room from GG. Surely Glenn has the space.

  359. 359
    Liberty60 says:

    This topic seems to have produced an awful lot of nervous awkwardness in the comments.

    I’m not really seeing anyone make a clear unambiguous defense of the NSA policies. Everyone seems to agree its wrong, but no one is making a clear argument for how we should restrict it. But many are agreed that the way Snowden did it is wrong. My question for them is, how do you think we should restrict the power of the NSA, if we don’t really have any way of knowing what they are really doing?

    And how do you think that knowledge will ever come to light, if not for flawed and imperfect people?

  360. 360
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    @Full Metal Wingnut:

    With very few exceptions, you can easily buy cops, government officials in Central and South America.

    When I was a youngster I wanted to buy a government official. We didn’t have much money so Mom knitted me one instead.

  361. 361
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Emma: Hear hear.

    After passage of the Patriot Act, no one should be shocked that the government is doing what its provisions allow. Disappointing yes, but not shocking. There should be a push to get rid of the Patriot Act and replace with legislation that doesn’t allow massive surveillance of US citizens.

    But alas, the martyrdom of Snowden continues.

  362. 362
    rikyrah says:

    Snowden is a traitor.

    he committed TREASON against this country.

    It’s not my fault that some of you jumped out on that ledge, following him and GG down the rabbit hole.

    He is a coward to boot.

    All the folks people try and compare him too – stood their ground and took their lumps in the country they protested against.

    The didn’t run like a coward.

    accept that you backed a traitorous loser.

    you backed the wrong horse

  363. 363
    Elie says:

    He will not be assassinated. He is much more valuable alive and discredited. Someone upstring asked how he would make a living once he has sold off what he has — is what he has enough to keep him financially and physically secure for life (probably not, but who knows right?)

    No — better to make sure he stays in self imposed prison in some third scale country without reliable air conditioning — making up stories about what he knew and trying to think who else he can out… If I were GG, I would be careful here — unless he and the Guardian are going to “keep” him on their dole. If they do that, doesn’t that make them complicit?

    This is all very weird and not at all what we need to be talking about in all this. Again, the only conversation is NOT about the issue, but about the two very flawed people who need the notoriety.

  364. 364
    nineone says:

    @Redshirt:Wait, we’re supposed to be convincing him? I though it was beat on the brat with a baseball bat (oh yeah, oh yah, oh-ho) time. Well, I guess I could…try to help him. I mean, if I have to…

    Shit, it was just gettin’ good.

  365. 365
    Mandalay says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Is it shocking to you that some people genuinely do not see Snowden as a hero at all?

    Not at all, but I am surprised at the intensity of hatred there seems to be for him. The mood on BJ seems to reflect that of the general public as far as I can tell. I do not see him as a “hero” myself, but I also think he did a good thing for the nation.

    I don’t see any comparisons between Snowden and Ellsberg or Dr. King. NONE. If you do, great.

    I don’t either, and have repeatedly posted about the absurdity of such comparisons.

    And calling people Obamabots, etc., is juvenile.

    Agreed, and I have never done that.

    The bottom line appears to be that in accordance with the Patriot Act, the NSA has done nothing wrong.

    Maybe so, but because something is legal does not mean that it is OK. The core problem is that Congress is willfully blind (at best) with regard to oversight of the activities of the government’s various security and intelligence services. Many seem scared of being labeled as a traitor if they question the status quo.

  366. 366
    Elie says:

    @Liberty60:

    We need many hearings at the national and local/state level — open houses and town halls to talk about and learn first. Learn first. I need to know what we need to know and what we need to HAVE to take care of the core functions of the NSA. Some dude dumping a bunch of appropriate data on spying on us, mixed with data about spying on our opponents, just messes up starting anything.

    I do believe that this will happen but obviously not now during “Camille Act III”. Isn’t there a part where she hurls herself onto railroad tracks or is it she dies of consumption? All melodrama for attention hounds

  367. 367
    Dolly Llama says:

    Jesus Christ, y’all still here? @Dolly Llama: I guess I was wrong. At least a handful of argument hogs stuck around here.

  368. 368
    Elie says:

    @Dolly Llama:

    Slow Sunday?

    Actually, its a provocative and interesting situation. Will make a great book and movie someday…

  369. 369
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Liberty60: We were going to have a series of town hall meetings to discuss the merits and drawbacks of USGOV spying on and collecting data on 300 Million Americans but Snowden ruined everything by telling everyone about it.

    Reply

  370. 370
    LAC says:

    @Ted & Hellen: yes, and whaaaaa…you can go anytime.

  371. 371
    Elie says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    No – he was a catalyst for what is needed. Till he started playing footsy with the Chinese and Russians, he could have made his credibility a big help in getting to the information sharing and learining we all need to bring the pressure for change. I guess you already know everything.

  372. 372
    Mark B says:

    So, after selling secrets to the Chinese, he’s maximizing his return by also selling them to the Russians? It sure looks that way.

  373. 373
    Kay says:

    China violated an agreement with the US based on a hyper-technical reading of terms but without an actual, actionable breach that might affect their economic interests?

    AND managed to avoid making any determination on whether this fits the “political” exception, thereby avoiding any human rights issue?

    Now there’s a shocker. Looks just like a trade dispute! Same shit, different “product”.

  374. 374
    Mark B says:

    @rikyrah: It isn’t just that he ran away from the consequences of his actions, it’s the choice of where he ran to. He simply has no credibility left. He’s completely ruined the validity of his argument by apparently selling state secrets.

  375. 375
    piratedan says:

    People over at LGF are trying to connect the dots between David Gregory and secret Administration lackey, running out of dots sadly….

  376. 376
    Mark B says:

    @Kay: Not true. The Chinese have been engaged in cyber attacks against American interests for some time. Many of these attacks are not directly traceable to the Chinese government, but it’s pretty obvious whose interests they serve.

  377. 377
    different-church-lady says:

    @Emma:

    Anyone paying attention…

    Oh you kidder — who here actually pays attention to anything?

  378. 378
    D58826 says:

    Kinda of funny/sad how the establishment (GOP/DEM/Washington media) are busy lining up to be part of the firing squad for this guy but have been oh so quiet about lying us into a war, massive corruption in two wars, Gitmo, Valerie Plame, torture, hunger in American, long term unemployment, etc.

    Snowdon’s mistake was not becoming a member of the club before leaking the documents

  379. 379
    Kay says:

    @Mark B:

    I think you misunderstood me. I think they acted in their own interests by getting out of this, which is not a surprise.

  380. 380
    different-church-lady says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Personally, I’m really looking forward to Snowden’s statement about Russia’s Ecuador’s great history of spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent.

    Fixed that for me.

  381. 381
    Mark B says:

    @Kay: I’m good at misunderstanding people. The Chinese are definitely not the good guys in this story. I only think they’re letting him leave since they’ve already extracted information from him and don’t want the hassle of fighting extradition. Plus, Snowden and Greenwald breathlessly putting out press releases day after day really serves Chinese interests, so they won’t do anything to stop that.

  382. 382
    LAC says:

    @Mandalay: @ChrisNYC: god bless you for trying. Next to Ted and his long suffering dog, getting bliztkieged by the same one note talking points over and over and over by Mandalay is all a thread about Martin Luther snowden devolves into.

  383. 383
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Elie: No, I don’t know everything. In this case, hardly anything. Which is why I’m reluctant to pass judgment on Snowden. But having participated in this forum for dog years, I know enough to say unequivocally that you are an idiot and many of your shipmates, while not as stupid as you, are typical conservatives and authoritarians.

  384. 384
    Emma says:

    @different-church-lady: Ecuador? He’s going to Ecuador? The country that is in the process of introducing a nationwide facial and voice identification system?

    Lordamercy.

    (edit) a friend reminds me Ecuador is also planning a drone surveillance program.

  385. 385
    Kay says:

    @Mark B:

    I agree. I was simply pointing out that they took a very careful route that doesn’t adversely impact their larger interests. A defense for getting around extradition and no determination on asylum.
    They have a whole host of objectives when dealing with the US. His issue, “privacy”, may or may not be important to the leaders of that country. Certainly his issue isn’t the only factor they have to deal with, when making decisions as to what benefits their interests.
    Seems like a very pragmatic solution to what was becoming a problem. Skate right to the line on the treaty and dodge the asylum issue.

  386. 386
    pat says:

    @Cacti:

    I’ve been wondering about that, the contact with GG before he got the job with Booz. Who initiated it, for one thing. Not sure I’ve seen that spelled out.

    And how on earth did he manage to get all that info in only three months? I wonder if he maybe was hacking like mad, and took information that would not normally been seen by him.

    He’s looking more and more like a case of arrested development, somewhere around the age of 12.

  387. 387
    Liberty60 says:

    @Emma:
    But you can see, can’t you, how Orwellian this logic is, then?

    “He didn’t reveal any secrets. So he must be prosecuted!”

    “NSA spying is wrong, and should be restricted. NSA spying must be kept secret and no one should reveal it!”

  388. 388
    Elie says:

    @D58826:

    None of the examples you site have anything to do with Snowden’s situation. No — you can’t cite every wrong done by others as an excuse for this wrong..

    C’mon now. Left-progressives have to just accept whatever benefit we can from having the issue raised but not use this guy as some hero to promote the issue. He is not. Right now he may have a bit of a time proving he is not just some rank traitor. We don’t need him that bad. Really… YES, character DOES matter… why try to make our arguments for access to information and transparency sponsored by a traitor or at least a guy who put some of our interests at risk? Seriously — is he the example from which we want to make our arguments? I.dont.think.so.

  389. 389
    rikyrah says:

    Joy Reid

    @TheReidReport

    Daniel Ellsberg speculated that Greenwald
    and Snowden may have met bc Greenwald is on the board of the Freedom of
    the Press Foundation..

    12:31 PM – 23 Jun 2013

    Joy Reid

    @TheReidReport

    …which raises money for Wikileaks. Also on the board: filmmaker Laura Poitras, who made the Snowden Hong Kong video.

    12:33 PM – 23 Jun 2013

    Joy Reid

    @TheReidReport

    On a blogger conference call last week Daniel Ellsberg called the FOTP Foundn “a direct line” from Assange to Snowden.

    12:58 PM – 23 Jun 2013

    Joy Reid

    @TheReidReport

    And Snowden left Hong Kong with someone surnamed Harrison – same name as a Wikileaks legal advisor.

    12:59 PM – 23 Jun 2013

    Joy Reid

    @TheReidReport

    Interesting that Snowden didn’t just leak
    to Wikileaks, but instead went to people with a “direct line” to
    Assange through the Foundation.

    1:00 PM – 23 Jun 2013

  390. 390
    Emma says:

    @Liberty60: Excuse me. “he didn’t reveal any secrets” /= “he took documents labeled top secret”. What the actual content of the document is does not invalidate its legal status.

    Now, I happen to think a lot of those documents shouldn’t be secret at all. But that does not change what they are.

    “The kidnapper didn’t harm the baby so he shouldn’t be prosecuted” is not a good defense.

  391. 391
    Elie says:

    @Liberty60:

    I thought upstring you said you thought that spying against our opponents was ok? Hey, I acknowledge this is a shady area — what is ok — what is not —

    We have to do a lot of talking and learning about a whole bunch of issues and decision points — its complex. Don’t try to make it easy. We have to pressure our elected leaders who are not distracted by this melodrama, to push for surfacing what we need to know …

  392. 392
    quannlace says:

    On Saturday’s episode of ‘Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me.” was the first time I heard the story of Putin stealing that Super Bowl ring.

  393. 393
    Elie says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    There there now….you don’t seem particularly bright — perhaps hence the handle? Fits.

    You are, after all, just some fuckhead

  394. 394
    Mandalay says:

    @Mark B:

    I only think they’re letting him leave since they’ve already extracted information from him

    I’m not saying that you (and several others here) are wrong, but do you have any actual evidence for this claim, or is it pure speculation?

    It seems much more plausible to me that Snowden revealed nothing privately to the Chinese government, and was free to stay in Hong Kong as long as the US government had not charged him, but once charges were filed the Chinese simply suggested that it would be best for him and them if he left.

    FWIW – which is not much to some here – this is what Greenwald wrote:

    He could have – but chose not – sold the information he had to a foreign intelligence service for vast sums of money, or covertly passed it to one of America’s enemies, or worked at the direction of a foreign government. That is espionage. He did none of those things.

    Greenwald seems to be asserting that he has not sold any information, but perhaps there is some lawyerly weasel wording in that statement?

    Regardless, if it turns out that Snowden did secretly provide information to the Chinese government (and we will probably never know for sure either way), then Greenwald and Snowden would have some serious explaining to do. But just assuming that Snowden did that seems unreasonable.

  395. 395
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Elie: Yes, that should give you an idea of your own inadequacy, if such a thing were possible for the idiots riding shotgun beside the most secretive and unaccountable Presidency ever.

  396. 396
    D58826 says:

    @Elie: I was referring to the amount of outrage generated by the various establishment types, not a one-to-one correspondence. How many Washington types are demanding that Bush/Chaney be charged with war crimes for waterboarding?

  397. 397
    Liberty60 says:

    @Elie:
    Pressure our leaders, how? Armed with what information?

    “President Obama, we hear rumors that the NSA is spying on us- is it true?”
    “No, it is not true.”

    “OK, then! Thankyouverymuch!”

    @Emma:
    You are reiterating a mode long since made- he broke the law. Granted!

    Is the law being used in a just manner? Is it just to keep the information concealed?

  398. 398
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Liberty60: Obama said he wanted to have a debate about it. Now we just wait for our invitations to the Beer Summit with the NSA.

  399. 399
    Mark B says:

    @Mandalay:

    I’m not saying that you (and several others here) are wrong, but do you have any actual evidence for this claim, or is it pure speculation?

    Speculation. But he gave an interview to state-controlled media, so it seems likely. He certainly doesn’t seem to be having any financial issues with travel, even though his assets have certainly been frozen by the U.S. government by now.

    As for what Greenwald wrote, I just don’t trust Greenwald. Greenwald has a history of sloppiness with facts, and for not revealing the whole story when it doesn’t serve his purposes. He’s not a credible actor.

  400. 400
    Mark B says:

    @Mandalay:

    Regardless, if it turns out that Snowden did secretly provide information to the Chinese government (and we will probably never know for sure either way), then Greenwald and Snowden would have some serious explaining to do. But just assuming that Snowden did that seems unreasonable.

    How is it unreasonable to assume that someone who carries shitloads of classified documents to countries that are adversaries of the United States didn’t know exactly what he was doing? Even if he didn’t directly intend to share them with the Chinese government, doesn’t he realize that storing them in a non-secured hotel room is pretty much the same thing as sharing them? There’s no way that they haven’t been already copied, with or without Snowden’s cooperation.

  401. 401
    Felonius Monk says:

    Sounds like the internal spying is going to get a little more intense. Check this out:

    Big Brother Takes A Government Job

  402. 402
    Mandalay says:

    @Elie:

    We have to pressure our elected leaders who are not distracted by this melodrama

    You mean folks like the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Diane Feinstein, who defended James Clapper for lying to her and Congress about government surveillance? An “elected leader” responsible for congressional oversight who defends the person who lied to her?

    Is THAT the type of person we should pressure? How do you think that would go?

  403. 403
    Elie says:

    @D58826:

    Not many, I agree. sadly.

  404. 404
    Elie says:

    @Mandalay:

    Well babe, describe the scenario to how we would get that change without involving our formal elected political system at some point? Does some leaker just leak the information and then x then magically we get a new set of laws and regulations about this? Describe how it should work if not using our ya know, government and political process?

  405. 405
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @tybee:

    Yeah, I know, I have like five voicemails from various Shitstain Defamation League types threatening all sorts of legal action.

  406. 406
    Elie says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Who cares what you think? No one left you boss.. You can have your opinion and I have mine. Lets leave it at that fucknuckle

  407. 407
    different-church-lady says:

    @Emma: You don’t suppose he’s just trying to screw with our heads at this point?

  408. 408
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    “Horatio Magellan Crunch”

    FTW!

  409. 409
    Mandalay says:

    @Mark B:

    Even if he didn’t directly intend to share them with the Chinese government, doesn’t he realize that storing them in a non-secured hotel room is pretty much the same thing as sharing them.

    I am sure Snowden (of all people!) realized that, and it would seem unlikely in the extreme that he would have left electronic data “in a non-secured hotel room”. You are really stretching credibility there.

    It seems much more plausible to me that Snowden handed over everything to someone from Wikileaks or the Guardian within minutes of arrival in Hong Kong (prior to his being identified as the leaker), and that the recipient got the next plane out of Hong Kong. That would ensure that no matter what happened to Snowden the information he wanted to leak survived.

  410. 410
    different-church-lady says:

    @Liberty60: At this point I am framing this up in my own mind as a choice between believing people who might be lying to me, or believing a different set of people who might be lying to me.

  411. 411
    Alex S. says:

    The busiest threads about this matter seem to be the joke ones.

  412. 412
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Liberty60:

    You are reiterating a mode long since made- he broke the law. Granted!

    Is the law being used in a just manner? Is it just to keep the information concealed?

    Well, that’s a fun one. This argument kicks Snowden back into civil disobedience territory. And, of course, one of the keys to civil disobedience is that one accepts the rule of law – one says that the state has the authority to set laws for its citizens – but that the particular law is so egregiously wrong that one must disobey. The only way to square that circle is to accept the consequences of violating the law. That is, one must accept being arrested, prosecuted, and potentially punished. Snowden is not doing that. I am giving him credit for being a not very good whistleblower as opposed to a completely incompetent practitioner of civil disobedience. Others here are less charitable. YMMV.

  413. 413
    Elie says:

    @Mandalay:

    It seems much more plausible to me that Snowden handed over everything to someone from Wikileaks or the Guardian within minutes of arrival in Hong Kong (prior to his being identified as the leaker), and that the recipient got the next plane out of Hong Kong. That would ensure that no matter what happened to Snowden the information he wanted to leak survived.

    You hope

    Now, this gets way trickier if the Guardian and/or GG were involved with setting all this up before Snowden moved to Booz. They might could get involved in being complicit rather than uninvolved recipients of secret information. If they instructed him what to look for or directed his actions, they are part of the action.

  414. 414
    El Caganer says:

    So when do we get a Snowden to tell us what’s up with TPP?

  415. 415
    Emma says:

    @Liberty60: That is so NOT the point.

    The law is a mess, as many of us have repeatedly asserted. The Patriot Act is a disaster. It is still the law. Congress can repeal it. Otherwise it is the law.

    If we get to the point where we apply the law only to the people we dislike we might as well call it a day.

  416. 416
    El Caganer says:

    @different-church-lady: Unfortunately, that seems to be the best attitude to take towards this.

  417. 417
    Gian says:

    @rachel:
    the point of that movie was the car chase. not totally pointless. the plot was just an excuse for the car chases.

  418. 418
    different-church-lady says:

    Somebody made a mistake and allowed a sane person to get on the rec list at DKos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....s-shall-we

  419. 419
    Emma says:

    @different-church-lady: I’m beginning to wonder.

  420. 420
    Mark B says:

    @Mandalay: He still had the information in his custody when he was in Hong Kong, if the stories that were written about him using his laptop while covering his head up with a blanket in order to prevent eavesdropping of his password. I have no doubt he’s given copies to other people, but he certainly had copies with him on his laptop. They probably would be encrypted copies, but given that a lot of people would have to know the key, it’s not that good of a security. Plus, if you have access to a physical machine, installing a keylogger is pretty damn easy, making the whole theater with the blanket a sham.

  421. 421
    Herbal Infusion Bagger says:

    “Snowden is 29 going on 30. Some guys who are 29 going on 30 get freaked because they haven’t done anything really big with their lives.”

    Especially if you haven’t shown the wherewithal to get through High School or a Community College IT certificate.

  422. 422
    geg6 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    This has been the Snowdon fan boyz argument from the start. They only changed their tune and started calling him a whistleblower when someone else pointed out to them that he fits none of the models for civil disobedience. He’s an attention whore and coward, not a whistleblower NOR a champion of civil rights. I doubt very much he has thought any of this through, so I really don’t think he’s a spy of any type. I do, however, think he’s too stupid and arrogant to realize that the Chinese probably got everything (classified information and political benefit) they wanted from his little stunt. No, he’s no spy, too stupid and cowardly to be. Even spies know they can be easily caught and they expect to face the consequences of their actions if they get caught. I think Greenwald used him. And Greenwald cares for no one and nothing other than Greenwald.

  423. 423
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @geg6: Since I am not a Snowden fan boy, I don’t feel particularly obligated to adopt their arguments. I am just more ready than some to credit that he may well have done what he did for ideological reasons; that wouldn’t make him a hero in my eyes, but it certainly would make him less venal.

  424. 424
    Mandalay says:

    @Mark B:

    Plus, if you have access to a physical machine, installing a keylogger is pretty damn easy, making the whole theater with the blanket a sham.

    Separate from imputing anything good or bad about Snowden’s leaks, there are several indications that he doesn’t really have his act together, and that nonsense with the “security blanket” is certainly one of them.

    That said, what he did was life-changing, and he has to contend with massive personal pressure that none (?) of us will ever have to face. He certainly seems to genuinely believe that he may be murdered.

    I don’t think that the average person would have coped any better than him.

  425. 425
    liberal says:

    @Emma:
    Garbage. Law has long been selectively applied.

  426. 426
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mark B: That’s funny: I though the whole damn point of his endeavor was to release information to the world.

  427. 427
    geg6 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Oh, I’m sure he thinks he’s doing it for ideological reasons. I just don’t think he’s thought out, exactly, what that ideology is. And Glenn was ready, willing and able to help him ruin his life for his own ideological reasons, which are more thought out than Snowden’s are. And which are little different than that of your average glibertarian.

    ETA: And I was not implying that you were a Snowden fanboy. I was just saying that they first painted him as the next coming of MLK, Mandela and Gandhi until his cowardice was pointed out by others and then suddenly he became a whistleblower a la Ellsberg. But argue with one of them long enough and suddenly he’s the poster boy for civil disobedience again.

  428. 428
    Mandalay says:

    @Herbal Infusion Bagger:

    Especially if you haven’t shown the wherewithal to get through High School or a Community College IT certificate.

    This is highly relevant, especially when coupled with earlier information from alert BJ posters that Snowden may be going to Pakistan, and is not nearly as heroic as MLK. We are really building up a good picture of this monster.

    Melinda tells me that Bill can’t get an erection because he flunked out of college, and who can doubt that Snowden-the-dropout is cut from the same limp cloth?

  429. 429
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay:

    I don’t think that the average person would have coped any better than him.

    That’s one of the many, many reasons the “average person” wouldn’t have done what he did.

  430. 430
    liberal says:

    @Elie:

    This is just plain ol’ treason

    Uh, not in a legal sense it isn’t, since it doesn’t fit the definition in the Constitution, which is where it’s defined in the US.

  431. 431
    Mark B says:

    @Mandalay:

    I don’t think that the average person would have coped any better than him.

    Well, the thing is, he’s an IT tech who happened to have access to classified material, which is quite a different thing from being a trained spy. But I’m not grading him on a curve. When he betrayed the trust of his country and stole vast quantities of material that didn’t belong to him and revealed things that he swore to keep secret, that wasn’t just a slip up. I understand the whole concept of civil disobedience, but that requires that you take responsibilities for your actions and are cognizant of the consequences to other people. He fails massively on both counts.

    My take on this whole thing is that he’s done a very bad thing which will have some good consequences. Some people who weren’t paying attention when the Patriot Act passed are now aware of the scale of the machinery that Bush put into place. Unfortunately, most of the people who are incensed by this don’t really don’t have any concept of how it actually works and what the limitations are. Most right wingers are just convinced that Obama is listening to them talk about bingo and how much they hate n*****rs, instead of doing node analysis on who talks to who.

  432. 432
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mark B:

    Most right far left wingers are just convinced that Obama is listening to them talk about bingo the next OWS action and how much they hate n*****rs Holder, instead of doing node analysis on who talks to who.

    Fixed that for you.

  433. 433
    Elie says:

    @Mark B:

    That was nicely summed up —

  434. 434
    Elie says:

    @liberal:

    Ok word parser. He betrayed some of what his country knows most importantly about our competitors/foes and allies. YOU name it since you are being the word police here. Whatever it is is wrong and will wind him up with plenty of jailbird down time to write his memoirs

  435. 435
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am giving him credit for being a not very good whistleblower as opposed to a completely incompetent practitioner of civil disobedience. Others here are less charitable.

    Doesn’t whistle-blowing require illegal actions (or cover-ups of illegal actions) to which a whistle-blower wants to bring attention? I’m not seeing anything illegal in that to which Snowden has brought attention.

    Assuming there’s no proof of illegal actions involved (and what’s been revealed offers no proof), why could Snowden not have approached Ron Wyden and/or Mark Udall, both reformers on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and expressed his concerns regarding the possibility of abuse inherent in the existing system?

  436. 436
    geg6 says:

    @liberal:

    Correct. We aren’t at war with Russia or China or Ecuador. However, it would seem he could fall under the definition of espionage, a la Jonathan Pollard, if he gave the Chinese anything at all from his little thumb drive. Which I have no doubt he did, intentionally or not.

  437. 437
    Mandalay says:

    @Mark B:

    I understand the whole concept of civil disobedience, but that requires that you take responsibilities for your actions…

    I just don’t understand the argument that if you violate a law that you don’t believe in you are still automatically obliged to stick around and take your medicine. Why? Just because that conforms to some scholarly definition of “civil disobedience”?

    Snowden appears to have doubly infuriated most posters here. Bad enough that he leaked information about how the government was lying to its citizens. But then he had the temerity to leave the country rather than allow himself to be captured! He has made our government look both overreaching and incompetent.

    My take on this whole thing is that he’s done a very bad thing which will have some good consequences.

    Your take merits a separate thread!

  438. 438
    Elie says:

    @geg6:

    ahhh — but timing is everything. In a pinch, Snowden might have a thing or two to reveal about GG… ya know, gotta pay those bills with something! Good works are not free, boys and girls!

    If GG was instigating or setting up any of this in his prior contact with Snowden before Booz, he could be in a bit of hot water himself

  439. 439
    Elie says:

    @Mandalay:

    I guess you either get “honor” and “integrity” or you don’t. I guess its also clear you would do the same. Break faith with your country in the cause of something supposedly noble, but then take off rather than confronting the issue straight on. If you want to — there is a whole literature on civil disobedience and its justifications and purpose. If you become familiar with it you will know where it comes from…

  440. 440
    Mark B says:

    I just don’t understand the argument that if you violate a law that you don’t believe in you are still automatically obliged to stick around and take your medicine. Why? Just because that conforms to some scholarly definition of “civil disobedience”?

    Hit and run civil disobedience, like hit and run driving, is an unmitigated bad.

    Bad enough that he leaked information about how the government was lying to its citizens.

    I’m not sure I agree with this. That a program like this existed was pretty well known. The details were closely held, but that’s pretty normal with a lot of operations that involve security. I don’t see where this a case of the government lying to the citizens, more than it is a case of the government taking the predictable course of action when the law allows it to do this kind of surveillance.

  441. 441
    Mandalay says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    why could Snowden not have approached Ron Wyden and/or Mark Udall, both reformers on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and express his concerns regarding the possibility of abuse inherent in the existing system?

    Since you are assuming that Snowden would be bringing them information that they didn’t already know, what would that say to you about the quality of Congressional oversight of our intelligence services?

    Notwithstanding the honest efforts of Wyden and Udall, the House and Senate Intelligence Committees are lapdogs to our security services.

  442. 442
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Mandalay:

    Since you are assuming that Snowden would be bringing them information that they didn’t already know, what would that say to you about the quality of Congressional oversight of our intelligence services?

    I’m not assuming that. They might very well have the general information without having a techie’s detailed know-how about how easily abused the system is.

  443. 443
    Mandalay says:

    @Mark B:

    Hit and run civil disobedience, like hit and run driving, is an unmitigated bad.

    I don’t accept your analogy, nor the argument that there is any requirement for Snowden to conform to some definition of what constitutes “civil disobedience”.

    The fact that Snowden fled has allowed him to keep the story alive, and put the government under increased ongoing scrutiny. I think that Snowden could reasonably argue that his approach is optimal for putting the focus on what he perceives as unjust laws.

    I don’t see where this a case of the government lying to the citizens

    Review Clapper’s testimony to Congress back in March as a starting point.

  444. 444
    geg6 says:

    @Mandalay:

    You are obviously ignorant of the philosophical underpinnings of the people who have actually practiced civil disobedience, the very people you are lumping him in with as a compatriot. You can’t make claims that he’s doing what others before him, like MLK and Gandhi, have done and then say that their philosophies had nothing exceptional about them that Snowden should be bound to follow. Civil disobedience has a specific definition. If you don’t agree with that definition, then call it something else. Most of us would call that simply completely disregarding the law and the contract he signed and then running away and expecting a pat on the head for it but YMMV. There are lots of laws I don’t agree with but, if I choose to disobey them just because I don’t like them, I expect to pay the price. This idiot thinks he shit out gold and should be hailed as a hero for confirming what we already knew the Patriot Act allowed.

    I, personally, don’t give a shit if he’s ever brought back to the US to face the music he started. But I also don’t give a shit if his life is a miserable one for the duration of it. In fact, I think his stunt has backfired badly enough that he’s set his own self-professed cause back so far that it will never go back to what it was before C+ Augustus. I mean seriously…running into the arms of China and Putin? And Ecuador? Have you been reading about the wonderful world of civil liberties there lately?

  445. 445
    Mandalay says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    They might very well have the general information without having a techie’s detailed know-how about how easily abused the system is.

    Well if Udall and Wyden truly care then they are free to contact Greenwald. I am sure that he would be delighted to put them in contact with Snowden so that they can learn more about the abuse.

    But of course they won’t do that.

  446. 446
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Mandalay:

    Well, the genie’s outta the bottle now. Snowden could have testified legally, gotten immunity in return, but he chose to go another route.

    As for St. Glen…He’s sittin’ pretty in that position of power brokerage now, huh? Not very journalistic to become part of the story, is it?

  447. 447
    Mandalay says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    Snowden could have testified legally, gotten immunity in return…

    You really believe that Snowden would have been granted immunity? You can’t be serious.

  448. 448
    different-church-lady says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    why could Snowden not have approached Ron Wyden and/or Mark Udall, both reformers on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and expressed his concerns regarding the possibility of abuse inherent in the existing system?

    Because he would have been assassinated on the spot!

    /far-left-Paultard-wing-of-the-democratic-party

  449. 449
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mandalay: If one is going to claim the mantle of Gandhi and/or MLK for someone and claiming civil disobedience does that, one must accept the limitations on action that come with it. Civil disobedience is more than just disobeying a law one doesn’t like. Whatever else may be true about Snowden, he is not practicing civil disobedience.

  450. 450
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Mandalay:

    Had he gone to them and said, “Hey, I can prove that this system is easily abused, but I don’t testify without immunity,” then, yeah. And it isn’t like he’d have to go to them directly. This is one of those things that lawyers do. And if I’m working in Snowden’s field, I’ve retained a lawyer who’s got some chops when it comes to security and surveillance to take care of anything that might pop up, anyway. I sure as fuck wouldn’t be taking legal advice from a guy like Greenwald, who’s got a possible conflict of interest brewing, what with his “journalistic” endeavors and political action committees.

  451. 451
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @different-church-lady:

    IKR? Because Eddie Snowden and Werner Heisenberg are one in the same. Oh, wait…

  452. 452
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Of course, you have to remember what passes for brave on Balloon Juice. A bunch of elderly white shut-ins voting for a non-Republican – and a black one at that! – for the first time in their lives. Ha. When you ski the K12, the Olympics looks easy.

    I so {heart} you for this!

  453. 453
    Mandalay says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    Had he gone to them and said, “Hey, I can prove that this system is easily abused, but I don’t testify without immunity,” then, yeah. And it isn’t like he’d have to go to them directly. This is one of those things that lawyers do.

    Gotcha, but that would only be viable if he would have been able to secure immunity without first divulging his identity. I have no idea whether that kind of deal can be made by a lawyer on a client’s behalf.

    But if so then I agree that might have been a better option for him.

  454. 454
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Again, what is it you’ve done that counts as brave? It needs to be a little more significant than lead your guild on
    A raid in Warcraft.

  455. 455
    Mandalay says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Whatever else may be true about Snowden, he is not practicing civil disobedience.

    Cool. In that case none of the nonsense about him being required to stay and take his punishment applies.

  456. 456
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: Please don’t beat me up, Internet Tough Guy.

    Ps. I don’t play video games.

  457. 457
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mandalay: It’s true: fugitives don’t need to hang about.

  458. 458
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mandalay: Jesus, the fact that he jammed is what takes him out of the purview of civil disobedience. If he stayed, he could make the argument. He didn’t, so he can’t.

  459. 459
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yup. Which is why I give Manning a fuckload more credit as a practitioner of civil disobedience, as irresponsible as I believe most of his downloading/dumping (see: Democratic dissidents in Belarus) was.

  460. 460
    Mandalay says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, no idea what “jammed” means there.

  461. 461
    Mandalay says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):

    Which is why I give Manning a fuckload more credit as a practitioner of civil disobedience

    Did Manning realistically have any opportunity to flee though?

  462. 462
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mandalay: Jammed = left, got the hell out of Dodge, booked, scrammed, ran, fled, scarpered.

  463. 463
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Someone blockquote me so that Internet Tough Guy Cassidy can see me making fun of him. The retard stuck me in his pie filter and then responds.

  464. 464
  465. 465
    Anne Laurie says:

    @D58826:

    Snowdon’s mistake was not becoming a member of the club before leaking the documents

    Yeah, Ellsberg actually said (in the Washington Post) that the difference between him & Snowden is that Ellsberg was “a member of the club” — the DC Establishment — when he released the Pentagon Papers, so the people with the power to destroy him were more sympathetic to a guy who had the proper credentials & had been a member of the same organizations.

    That’s when a lot of apologists channeled their not-so-hidden authoritarian and started writing Ellsberg out of the club.

  466. 466
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Why would I beat you up? I’ve got no reason to. I’m just curious, as you’ve brought this up before, what exactly is it you’ve done that is so brave? Why can’t you just answer the question, chickenshit?

  467. 467
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: Am I out of the pie filter now, retard?

  468. 468
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Oh yeah, you got me. You’re just so witty. Again, I’ll just ask, why don’t you tell us what you have done that could be counted as brave? You like to make fun of people here, but I don’t exactly see you living up to any standard. My honest opinion is you’re just another chickenshit walking around mumbling to yourself because you’re too much of a coward to be brave in real life. The internet was made for people like you.

  469. 469
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead< Chickenshit: So you’re going to keep avoiding the question I see. Why can’t you just be straightforward?

  470. 470
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit:

    retard

    Really? 1) That’s lame. 2) Who the fuck are you to be lecturing people here on their purity values and then you use a word like this?

  471. 471
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: You’ve got a lot of opinions and they’re usually wrong. Why should this time be any different? I’d explain how I was simply contrasting the folks who called Snowden a coward with their own massive contributions to society but that would be too nuanced for a retard that thinks threatening people on the Internet is a debate tactic. Stand down, you feckless sack of hammers.

  472. 472
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit: Again, what exactly have you done that was so brave? Stop avoiding the question, chickenshit. Sounds like someone can’t.

    ETA: I’m not going to respond to any of your jackassery. I’ll just keep asking you what it is that you’ve done that is so brave that you feel you can judge and insult the people here. We both know you never have, but I’ll just keep reminding you of it anyway. You’re a chickenshit coward who uses a juvenile humor to hide your lack of anything remotely close to values. You pretend to be some sort of progressive, but really you’re just an acerbic coward who couldn’t be counted on to do anything brave in person.

  473. 473
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    OMFG, now you are going to spam me? Why don’t you just acknowledge you are overmatched and outclassed and move on, fool?

  474. 474
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: You fucking moron, if you didn’t understand it by reading the thread and my follow up comments, what the hell can I tell ya? Here’s something I did that was brave: I spent too much time babysitting one of Balloon Juice’s famous psychotics.

  475. 475
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit: Still avoiding the question, I see. C’mon Chickenshit, what have you done in your pathetic life that could be considered brave?

  476. 476
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit: Shorter: I got nothing and I’m too much of a coward to admit it.

  477. 477
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: I hope yer embarrassed about this when yer roid rage subsides, clown.

  478. 478
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Mandalay:

    It wouldn’t have been an easy flight, but, yes, he did.

    He’d already downloaded the “Collateral Murder” and Granai airstrike vids before he went Stateside on leave in early 2010, and he allegedly had the disks with him during that leave. He could have gone on the lam then. And had he not spilled to Adrian Lamo- in, what, May 2010?- he might have had another chance to split later on, after the massive downloads he made when he went back to Iraq. AFAIK, no one knew of the massive downloads at all until WikiLeaks already had the docs.

  479. 479
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: Of course you are going to keep asking the same question over and over. You don’t have any game.

  480. 480
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit: I’m not mad at all, chickenshit. I’m just curious, what have you done in your pathetic little life that could be counted as brave? Obviously, you’re so embarrassed by the question you keep avoiding it. It’s just one question. That’s it.

  481. 481
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: Are you copying and pasting yet, fool? Sucks having to say the same stupid shit over and over because you aren’t smart enough to come up with anything interesting.

  482. 482
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    Jebus, that guy sure as fuck does rewrite his own history to jibe with current events. The DC Establishment tried to destroy him, and they tried to do so extra-legally. The DC Establishment had so fouled the case against him with their extra-legal tactics that they couldn’t refile charges.

  483. 483
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit: So nothing then. Oh well, back into the rubbish heap with the likes of PedoTimmeh. Gotta love little chickenshits like you running around. You must have been so happy to find the internet so you could type the things you’re too much of a coward to say out loud. What a fucking waste of sperm.

  484. 484
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Cassidy: Thank you. I felt my IQ dropping by the minute with you. I believe you could be dumber than Stuck.

  485. 485
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @Cassidy: @Just Some Fuckhead:

    Fifteen more until you guys get this thread to 500 comments. Go, baby, go!

  486. 486
    Cassidy says:

    Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit says: Nothing beats a chunky wodge of pie when the comments start to heat up.

    It tries to be witty, but in the end, it’s just another internet coward. And it will forever avoid the question: What have you done that could be considered brave?

  487. 487
    Cassidy says:

    @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): That’s 15 more for Just Some Chickenshit to avoid answering a simple question!

  488. 488
    Groucho48 says:

    We don’t know much at all about Snowden or his motivations or his goals.

    Same with the info. Most of what we know for sure he revealed is general, non-illegal, procedure stuff. There are rumors about this or that but nothing more than that.

    He might be anything from an idealistic but naive do-gooder, to a whistleblower, to a crackpot, to an America hater, to a down-right spy.

    People see in him what they want to see in him and what advances their own ideology. We don’t have nearly enough information to come to any kind of conclusion. Barely enough for an hypothesis.

  489. 489
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Chickenshits pie other people and then yell insults as they flee.

  490. 490
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Ya really gotta admire the special education teacher that got Cassidy to stop eating bugs and communicate with words. That couldn’t have been easy.

  491. 491
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit: If this idiot actually answered my question, can someone blockquote it? I don’t really have any interest in reading it continuously avoid answering. If not, I’ll just assume that’s it’s another lame attempt to be witty and insulting, hoping to steer the conversation elsewhere because it’s a chickenshit coward who mumbles to itself.

  492. 492
    eemom says:

    Hi y’all! Looks like a fun thread; sorry I missed it. Thought I’d chip in just to move the needle closer to 500.

    And cuz I lovez y’all, also too. [sniff]

  493. 493
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    It’s really gotta suck when you have a pathological need to have the last word AND shut down anyone that disagrees with you.

  494. 494
    Cassidy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead Chickenshit: Another coffeehouse witty remark that all the other junior high kids would think is cool. Another deflection because it is too chickenshit to answer a simple question.

  495. 495
    Corner Stone says:

    It’s somewhat curious that the exact same contingent of people who are demanding Snowden stay and face the consequences, or who hilariously indicate they would “feel better” about his actions if he’d stayed, are the same ones who are salivating openly about him being punished.

  496. 496
    Corner Stone says:

    “We really wanted to have this discussion!”
    Just not with that fucking guy opening the ball. It should have been done by someone with true class and refinement. Does anyone know what Muffy Cabot-Lodge is doing?

  497. 497
    Corner Stone says:

    It’s known. It has been known. All that? Known.
    Yeah, we knowned the absolute fuck outta that a long time ago. Known.
    What’s the big deal? It’s known!

    Now BURN THE WITCH!

  498. 498
    Corner Stone says:

    I’m also wondering how many countries we are at war with around the globe? Or those we are now considering our “enemy”.
    Because the only other nation on earth that has a semblance of being a superpower is one, and apparently one of our persistently largest trading partners is one, and the country we import quite a bit of oil from is one.
    I’m starting to think this says more about us than it does our “enemies list”.

  499. 499
    Corner Stone says:

    And I, personally, don’t think Snowden is incompetent, excitable, bumbling or blind. I also don’t think he’s experiencing his mid-life crisis at 30. And as for GG playing Snowden, please.
    It’s curious to me why so many have set the default to “doesn’t know what he’s doing” when he’s gotten to a point that they disagree with.

  500. 500
    Corner Stone says:

    And that’s how you do 500.

  501. 501
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: Hey, welcome back. How was your vacation?

  502. 502
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    That’s a wrap. Shut it down!

  503. 503
    karen says:

    @Cacti:

    YES! They shouldn’t demand reparations, they should pay a “freedom tax” every day to show their gratitude and if they don’t pay they should be sold into slavery again!

    Libertarians: freedom for me. None for you.

    What’s the difference between Snowden and some other guy selling secrets? Does he become Saint because it happened on Obama’s watch?

  504. 504
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @karen:

    What’s the difference between Snowden and some other guy selling secrets?

    At this point, we do not know that Snowden sold anything to anyone, do we?

  505. 505
    Redshirt says:

    That was an entertaining internet fight. Thanks folks!

  506. 506
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Bullshit. He ran to a country we are at war with. It’s obvious to all of us here.

  507. 507
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: Welcome back, you deviant.

  508. 508
    Mark B says:

    @Corner Stone: Well, we aren’t at war with China, but they have a very active espionage program directed not only at our government but sl;so at private companies that they consider to be rivals in their endevours. In the real world, big countries are never really ‘friends’. At best, they’re rivals who will take advantage of anything to better their position, and the relationship with China is considerably worse than that.

  509. 509
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mark B: We’re…*not* at war with China? Well, are we at least at war with Russia? We have to be at war with one of them, if not both. Otherwise, what’s to be made of all the learned commentary here speaking to this issue?

  510. 510
    Corner Stone says:

    For the love of God someone please tell me we are at least at war with Israel!?

  511. 511
    Mark B says:

    @Corner Stone: It’s kind of like your frenemy at work. You’re all nice to them to their face, but you know they stole your spoon and covered it up with dried up pudding.

    I thought I’d try to come up with an analogy you could understand.

  512. 512
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    What say ye about Zandar’s accusation that Snowden and Greenwald are making the beast with two backs?

  513. 513
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mark B: So you went with pudding?
    That’s really fucking disrespectful to the spirit of the late President Stuck, may God bless him and keep him.

  514. 514
    Mark B says:

    @Corner Stone: I”m not familiar with the person you’re talking about, so it”s probably some kind of random coincidence. But it’s mostly because I like pudding.

  515. 515
    Elie says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Has someone heard that Stuck is no more?

  516. 516
    Mark B says:

    @Mark B: OK, I googled him and he seems like a cool guy. The world’s a worse place without him. Sorry I missed most of him, but I’m kind of an infrequent poster around here.

  517. 517
    Elie says:

    @Mark B:

    Stuck was a frequent commenter on this site but kinda disappeared a couple/few months ago. We tried but I don’t think anyone found out anything. He was smart and very funny and would get in some amazing rows with selected parties… He is missed, I think even by CS who used to be one of his most frequent combatants…

  518. 518
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mark B:

    I googled him and he seems like a cool guy.

    You’re a random admirer of agoraphobic shut-ins who can’t spell?

    This SuperMoon’s getting strange and shit.

  519. 519
    Mark B says:

    You’re a random admirer of agoraphobic shut-ins who can’t spell?

    On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a dog. I looked at his blog and it looked fairly entertaining, and a few of the comments that I read were entertaining. I’m not convinced that impeccable spelling is a hallmark of good writing. To my everlasting shame, I won a spelling bee in elementary school, and my writing is pure crap.

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