Since the local tribalists are getting boooored trying to outdo each other coming up with inventive ways to punish Ed Snowden, here’s a new chewtoy for the excuse generator. Via McClatchy, Carol Rosenberg, longterm reporter on Guantanamo for the Miami Herald:
New layer of secrecy emerges at Guantanamo court
GUANTANAMO BAY NAVY BASE, Cuba — When the war court reconvenes this week, pretrial hearings in the case of an alleged al-Qaida bomber will be tackling a government motion that’s so secret the public can’t know its name.It’s listed as the 92nd court filing in the death-penalty case against a Saudi man, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, who was waterboarded by CIA agents.
And in place of its name, the Pentagon has stamped “classified” in red.
It’s not the first classified motion in the case against the 48-year-old former millionaire from Mecca accused of orchestrating al-Qaida’s October 2000 suicide bombing of the USS Cole warship off Yemen. Seventeen sailors were killed in the attack, and the prosecutor proposes to execute al-Nashiri, if he’s convicted.
Also on the docket for discussion this week is a classified defense motion that asks the Army judge to order the government to reveal information “related to the arrest, detention and interrogation” of al-Nashiri. By the time he got to Guantanamo in 2006, according to declassified investigations, CIA agents had held him at secret overseas prisons for four years during which, according to declassified accounts, he was waterboarded and interrogated at the point of a revving power drill and racked pistol.
But what makes the no-name government motion so intriguing is that those who’ve read it can’t say what it’s about, and those who haven’t don’t have a clue. Not even the accused, who, unless the judge rules for the defense, is not allowed to get an unclassified explanation of it – and cannot sit in on the court session when it’s argued in secret….
Read the rest at the link, and then we’ll all share a chorus of AMERICA! FCK YEAH!
I know, it’s a damned serious subject. But “we” are no longer a serious people, much less a genuine republic.
NobodySpecial
Cue the chorus of:
1) This isn’t that serious/someone’s exaggerating,
2) Glenn Greenwald is fat,
3) Unicorn/pony snark, and/or
4) Cries of racism.
OzarkHillbilly
Please release me, let me go….
Meanwhile….NSA surveillance: anger mounts in Congress at ‘spying on Americans’
How dare they do what we told them to do! These people are worse than the Keystone Kops.
OzarkHillbilly
So many layers of cowardice in Guantanamo. Where to begin? Congress of course. What the hell are they afraid of? I just don’t get it.
Meanwhile….NSA surveillance: anger mounts in Congress at ‘spying on Americans’
How dare they do what we told them to do! The false indignity is as thick as Louisiana air. Either they are completely incompetent and voted for something without knowing what it was, or they just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Or both.
My money is on ‘C’.
Narcissus
Star Chamber 2 :Guantanamo Boogaloo
srv
It’s OK if Obama does it
Mustang Bobby
Mr. Kafka, your table is ready.
OzarkHillbilly
So anyway, now well into my 2nd night of insomnia in a row. Been awake since 12:28, finally got up at 2:30. Supposed to hit 95 for the high. It’s gonna be a long day for the hillbilly.
Ryan C
@srv: Reading the comments on this blog lately, I’m encountering the same reasoning in heard from republicans when Bush was president. If the left and the right excuse this behavior because their team is in charge and make no effort to put a stop to it when we have the chance, then why care about politics at all?
Linda Featheringill
Good morning, grumpy people. The world is full of shit and we have to live in it until we die.
Hell, even our sun is in late middle age and has begun its long, final decline.
Weaselone
@Ryan C:
I realize that our infotainment industry is doing its usual stellar job of educating the populace on important issues, but is it really to much to do a little research? Even my local news station managed to figure out after 2 days of reporting the NSA was not engaged in a massive wiretapping program just like Bush. The behavior is not actually the same.
The Bush administration carried out a massive wiretapping program with no court or congressional oversite and justified it as a legitimate exercise of unitary executive power.
The current surveillance program involves the collection of phone and internet records and has both judicial and congressional oversite. Wiretapping is subject to further judicial approval and requires specific information to justify the activity. This program is carried out under the broad authority granted by the Patriot Act.
The solution to this is not for the President “not to do it” as you seem to think it is. The solution is for Congress to repeal the Patriot Act.
c u n d gulag
This must be that new “TSP” program I’ve heard about:
“Triple Secret Probation.”
‘Sorry, but if we tell you what we’re charging you with, we’ll have to kill you.’
OY!!!
Mino
The rational from the courts seems to be that the government can take information from business about citizens that it cannot take directly from citizens without a specific warrant. Like a third party sterilizes the infringement.
ACLU will have their day in court now.
And foreign allies are going WTF, USA?
NotMax
That Carol Rosenberg, who has labored straight on through for years now assiduously and skillfully digging and knowledgeably reporting on Guantánamo, not to have won every major journalism award is itself a crime.
Baud
@Mino:
Actually, that’s typically the case. For example, if the police illegally search a person’s place, and find a private note that you wrote to that person, it is not considered an infringement of your Fourth Amendment rights. I think a legitimate case can be made for greater privacy protections with regard to network communications, however.
cvstoner
The accused has a fundamental right to know the charges against him/her. Without that right, you cannot have a civil society. Period.
Omnes Omnibus
@Weaselone: While I largely agree with you point, my big issue with the current surveillance progam stems from this. If there were real judicial oversight, I might be more comfortable with the what is being done, but, as it stands, the FISA court is a rubber stamp.
As far as Gitmo and military tribunals go, we don’t need, and never have needed, a kangaroo court system. Regular federal courts could and should handle any trials.
Christ, I am becoming so fucking frustrated at our country’s willingness to do anything in the name of protecting against terror. Maybe the reaction to the Boston bombing is a sign that things are turning, but, fucking hell, how could have taken so long?
@Mino:
That has been the case for a long time in 4th Amendment jurisprudence. If you are riding in someone’s car and he gets pulled over and illegally searched, the owner of the car can assert the illegality of the search in order to have any evidence excluded. You, as a passenger, cannot. I have always though that this is bullshit, but I am not on the Supreme Court.
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
@NotMax: I would agree, Rosenberg should get some sort of lifetime achievement award from the Pulitzers.
As to this situation, I’m curious who the commenters are who are going to defend this absurdity of classification? I certainly won’t, no matter who is president.
cvstoner
@Weaselone:
I think the solution is for the President “not to do it” and for Congress to repeal the Patriot Act.
If the President continues to do it, it makes the case for repealing the Act much weaker.
Baud
@cvstoner:
I disagree. If the President takes unilateral action, it takes pressure of Congress to act. In fact, I can see Congress, for political grandstanding reasons, becoming more obstinate in its defense of these programs in response to any unilateral action.
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
Also, why does this topic get shoved to the middle of the night when nobody is around to read or comment?
Geeno
@Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): We can’t tell you – that’s classified.
Emma
Considering how the poster began her post, I am safe in surmising that it’s the rabid supporters of Mr. China-is-so-much-freer-than-America that are trying to pick a fight.
You know what? In the long run, nothing will be done. Not a thing. Republicans will get back in power and use those programs ten times more aggressively than Obama ever did and the simon-pure Democrats will return to their favorite positions of yelling and shaking their fists impotently. It’s so much more fun to bitch in a blog’s comments while sitting safely in your bedrooms or offices. Or so you’ll think.
And those will really be fun times.
Soonergrunt
@Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): it didn’t get “shoved to the middle of the night when nobody is around to read.”. It got posted when the author posted it. Anne Laurie could have posted this at any time she wanted. She posted it when she posted it.
LAC
@Weaselone: Are you kidding? And deprive srv and Ryan from their mutual back patting and “obama = bush” yapping? Then what would they do?Get off their duffs and actively support people running for Congress that want to resolve this issue?That is just cray cray…
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
@Soonergrunt: I realize she can post it when she wants to post it, but it got posted in the middle of the night – when almost nobody is around to read or discuss it. Do you disagree with that assessment?
IMHO, it would seem to make more sense to post about these types of shenanigans at times of day when readership is higher and leave the late night for threads about fave videos, movies, cats, whatever.
There are actually opinions I’d like to hear about this topic (if it can keep from devolving into an NSA/PRISM shoutfest).
I know, YMMV, start your own blog, you don’t have to read it, GFY, etc. etc.
Todd
@Mino:
What part of “you let the private stuff leave your personal hands” are you not grokking? Seriously, are you that obtuse?
JR
@Soonergrunt:
Yes, and now we are awake (again, still) and reading it, and commenting.
I agree that what President Obama has done is substantially different from what President Bush did; i.e. legal, because of following procedure set in the law. Legal and right, according to the common standards of our society, are not now always the same thing.
Sooner, Hillbilly, I have guys on my roof preparing to rip it off – and it has given me a BAD case of the heebie-jeebies, including insomnia at both ends of the good night’s sleep I’m not gonna get until the roof is buttoned up tight. I plan to whine and moan here about politics, as I can’t really do much about the roofers.
I also have a car with 16K miles on it in a body shop (5 weeks so far) waiting to have a right read quarter panel welded into place so it can be moved to the dealer, who will replace all the pyros that went off when I got hit. No, not totaled….
But my personal life, as sharp and painful as it is at the moment, pales before the cluster-fuck Pres. W. Bush gave the world while in office. Mr. Obama is doing the best he can, better than most could… But…I’m glad lots of people are thinking about where we are, how we got there, and where we might should oughta be trying to go.
I’ll go back to sweating and watching the weather radar now, thanks!
Sorry about the off-topic BS!
Loviatar, Firebagger
@NobodySpecial:
.
you forgot a couple of Obot excuses:
5} Its the evil Congresses fault
6} don’t worry, its all 12th dimensional political strategy and you’re too dumb to understand
Svensker
@Todd:
But the difference is that the government pretty much forced the phone companies, at least, to turn the data over. When the west coast company (can’t remember the name) refused, their CEO ended up in court for “other reasons” and the next thing you know, west coast company cooperated and turned over their customer’s data.
That kind of pollutes the argument.
Ryan C
@Weaselone: you completely invented a position for me out of whole cloth. Amazing! What is my opinion on gun control now? Amazing how fast your knee jerked!
None of what you wrote was actually in my comment and in no way reflects my conversation. If you’re going to be that rude and willfully ignorant, no, I’m not going to have a conversation with you.
Niques
@cvstoner:
I disagree. If Obama continues to do it, it makes the case for repealing the Act much stronger. Think about who has to make the change . . . our do-nothing-that-might-in-any-possible-way-help-Obama Congress.
Todd
@Svensker:
You understand that the phone companies have been turning over pen data (basically, the past version of your current cellphone usage statement, which is what has emoprogs, Randians and teatards squealing) on a warrantless basis for something on the order of four decades, right? And this power was expressly confirmed by SCOTUS in 1979?
In an environment where there are warrants, this appears bulletproof.
sherparick
Peter King apparently believes that journalists who don’t work for Fox News or other Murdoch publications who publish classified information should be prosecuted. http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rep-peter-king-calls-criminal-prosecution.
Really, the secrecy thing is a large part of the problem. That the FISA decisions are themselves secret. The courts allowing Justice to use “state secret” as a get of jail card for all the lawsuits that could challenge and force adjudication is truly abusive. Further, it is probably unnecessary, at least since the Patriot Act and the 2008 FISA amendments. Although ELF, the ACLU, and Glenn Greenwald would, if they were on the Supreme Court, find all these programs violations of the 4th Amendment as an “unreasonable search and seizure,” the current actual Supreme Court, including moderates like Kagan, Beyer, and Sotomayer, probably would not. The key words in 4th Amendment litigation the last 50 years has been “reasonable expectation of privacy.” If you don’t have an expectation of privacy over a piece of information or area under your physical control, then the Government picking it up and keeping a record of it is not “a search or seizure” and you don’t get a test on whether it is reasonable or whether they need a particularized warrant from a magistrate. Hence, a telephone call from a public phone booth are protected since a reasonable person How much reasonable expectation of privacy do you have for information you put on Facebook or Gmail? I am afraid I don’t have any, but perhaps I am cynical.
cvstoner
@Baud: @Niques:
I think it sends quite a different message for the President to say
“we should repeal this law, but I’m going to use it anyway”
than it is to say
“we should repeal this law, and out of respect for basic human rights, I’m not going to use it.”
I think the second demonstrates courage of conviction.
taylormattd
@Emma: a firebagger trying to pick a fight by falsely characterizing an argument?? *Perish the thought!*
Soonergrunt
@Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS): I don’t disagree with you. It would be nice to have an actual discussion without it degenerating into utterly pointless bullshit.* But there’s nothing nefarious nor intellectually lazy, nor censorship, nor any other thing going on here.
*I’m pretty sure you’d agree with me that we’d have to ban, at least temporarily, a few people under the rubric of “the adults are talking” for that to happen.
Brother Machine Gun of Desirable Mindfulness (fka AWS)
@Soonergrunt: Perhaps my use of the word “shoved” was poorly chosen. For that, I apologize to AL. I think it was “lazy” in the sense of not thinking where it would be placed better for more discussion.
However, as has been seen since the thread was up, there are very few who seemed to want to discuss the case at hand, and many who seem to have used it as another pretense to discuss PRISM/NSA-gate, so yeah, “adults are talking” lol.
Ted & Hellen
@Omnes Omnibus:
You mean the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION’S WILLINGNESS…
Remember? The dude who’s been in charge for five years now?
You’re welcome.
Ted & Hellen
@Weaselone:
Can you explain exactly why the immediate solution is not for Mr. Obama to “not do it?”
In your world, is your president responsible for anything at all done on his watch? In your world, does the executive simply blindly enforce all laws, or does it, you know, make choices about that?
Or does any of that matter to you because your man is in the White House so FUCK YEAH?
Ted & Hellen
@Baud:
Of course you “can see” that. You’re an unthinking Obot. Defending BO, promoting his personal political career, and protecting his laughable legacy is paramount.
In short, you are disgusting.
Emma
@Ted & Hellen: Tell me for God’s sake that they’re paying you a flat rate per entry. Or are you being paid by the word and using several other nyms?
Because if you do this for free you have become the most ridiculous reductio ad absurdum in the history of trolling. blahblahblahblah… obot…. blahblahblahblah…disgusting….. blahblahblahblah…. Obama bad…. blahblahblahblah…. Obama bad…. blahblahblahblah…. obot…. blahblahblahblah… disgusting…. blahblahblahblah….
FlipYrWhig
Those guys are a bunch of tribalists! They reduce everything to who’s on what side, and that’s terrible, not like what we do! Fuck them! We rule, totally non-tribally!
Ted & Hellen
@Emma:
You, my moronic friend, have no self awareness whatsoever.
I have read thru a number of the recent NSA threads, and YOU are in every fucking one, posting multiples of multiple times over and over about how Obama is your faultless god.
So please to fuck yourself with your accusations of trolling and blah blahs.
We get it: You troll for O and the security state. Now fuck off.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@Ted & Hellen:
.
wait for it
Emma
@Ted & Hellen: Prove it. Show me once where I have referred to Obama was flawless or a god or even always right. Go to it, stupid.
And you know NOTHING about a security state and how to survive, you overpriviledged American. Not a bloody thing. You would roll over and show your belly at the first boo.
cyntax
@sherparick:
Well, I think there’s a real difference between FB and Gmail so I think one could have a reasonable expectation of privacy for Gmail but not for FB.
One of the things I find problematic about this debate is when people like my senator (DiFi)* say things like “It’s called protecting the nation.” Is it? How do we know? We can’t ever be told about any specific instance when this was used to keep us safe so how can we judge if the cost is worth it? If collecting meta-data is something that we really shouldn’t be concerned about then it seems the government should be able to furnish us with some meta-data about this program. How many plots has it disrupted? How dangerous were these plots? The fact that a congress who often makes very bad decisions (like the Patriot Act) is asking us to trust them doesn’t make me feel any better about this program. And they really should work to find at least one specific instance the details of which can be declassified for us to evaluate.
*And yes, I’ve made more than a couple calls to her office. I won’t ever make any head way but I do enjoy exercising my right to politely tell her staff what I think–at length and in detail.
Ted & Hellen
@Emma:
It shows its true colors.
What are YOU, Emma the Persecuted, a tortured dissident hiding in a cave in Somalia?
I AM an American and I agitate for the least possible Big Brother possible. If that seems “privileged” to you, you are welcome to go fuck yourself in Somalia.
Higgs Boson's Mate
And now for something completely different.
How would we feel if the Bush administration had done this? If I would consider something to be good, bad or understandable if that administration had done it then it’s the same for me if this one does it. I admit that’s a low bar.
Ted & Hellen
Deep Thoughts With Emma: It is privileged and sissy and racist (natch!) to oppose big government intrusion into the lives of private citizens. We must seek out and emulate the worst police states on earth. Only then are we made worthy.
Emma
@Ted & Hellen: Fear and terror is ugly my friend. You’re driven to attack me viciously because I’m telling you the truth and you can’t face it. Pitiful.
Emma
@Ted & Hellen: Moron. I lived my first 14 years in Castro’s Cuba, the child of known gusanos — people who opposed the regime and were leaving the country.
Until you have had your schoolmates disappear because their own relatives have turned them over the the state cops, or watched the neighbors you thought were your friends sit up and night and spy and reports on others, don’t talk to me about the security state. You’re a first world martyr –sitting in your chair and whining.
And I’m done with you. Pitiful pseudo-liberal troll.
Ted & Hellen
@Emma:
Is that you, Jack Nicholson?
P.S. Thank you for never attacking me viciously.
cyntax
@Higgs Boson’s Mate:
I have trouble imagining that I would be sanguine about that. But they wouldn’t even have run it through the FISA court.
Loviatar, Firebagger
@cyntax:
.
How do you know they wouldn’t have run it through the FISA court. Bush may have been an idiot but his administration was filled with some very smart men, they would have easily seen the benefit of getting their illegalities authorized by the courts (Torture Memo).
The FISA court seems to setting a pretty low bar for trashing the 4th Amendment why wouldn’t the Bush administration take advantage of it.
Burnspbesq
If the subject matter of the motion touches on intelligence sources and methods, it’s hardly a surprise that the motion would be classified. Of course, we can’t know that, because the motion is classified. So someone is sure to assert, based on nothing at all, that the reason the motion is classified is because it touches on how al-Nashiri was tortured. Of course, we can’t know that, either.
Ted & Hellen
@Burnspbesq:
Complete tool.
Another Halocene Human
I knew we’d lost when I saw the tortureporn scenes that started off the 2nd season of SCANDAL.
Even if it tans Obama’s hide, how much can he really do to change it? BTW, I think one of his biggest goals is to restore the rule of law and enact permanent change. So the whole “we make reality” attitude of Bush & Cheney had to go. That would simply push us closer to Spanish Civil War kind of breakdown, which was a disaster for the progressives by any measure. Obama is not a fool. I’ve been in leadership positions and you can’t change everything overnight especially when people have gotten used to a certain way, even rewarded for doing things the wrong way.
Until regular Americans think something is wrong about this, and unfortunately it seems to be only a rind of overeducated elites who care, any change is going to be glacial.
You know what the real problem is? A judiciary packed with Reagan/Bush old hawks. Some of them have softened on domestic issues but this furrin stuff is like the last to shift because furriners are outside of that circle of empathy. Clinton faced resistance naming judges (REMEMBER?) and Obama is facing even more. We HAVE to get Dems back in congress, hold onto the executive, and appoint SOME FUCKING SANE PPL TO THE COURTS. Also, I’d like to see more reform and outside accountability for the military court system. The women in Congress seem to be getting it as far as dealing with rape. But this Gitmo bullshit is another prime example.
My feeling is that all of this shit comes down to SCOTUS in the end and the one we have sux. We’ve got to develop some grit, some perseverance here and take all three branches. This is all the harvest of death from letting the 27%ers run our country for so damn long.
Another Halocene Human
@NobodySpecial: Republican/Koch operative Glenn Greenwald is part of the fucking problem, thank you very much, no matter how much I might agree with some of the books he wrote, etc. See my last comment.
Keith G
I cannot remember another time in my politically aware life when I have seen so many Democrats who were so sure the executive was unable to strongly influence the course of governmental action. “It’s the courts, the press, the Congress, the (other) people.”
Pro tip: US presidents try to do what they want to do…what they believe in. Obama isn’t a precious snowflake, he isn’t being held captive. This policy is what he is comfortable with, and he is wrong.
Either that or he truly was afraid to take up an important fight.
Keith G
Removing a double
A Humble Lurker
@Keith G:
Yeah, a lot of people have learned more about government. Has schoolhouse rock made a comeback? Amid all the other shit going on, it’s heartening. Hell, I remember when I used to think Presidency = monarchy, but I outgrew that.
mclaren
You’ve been learning from John Cole. The troll-fu is strong with this one too…
Keith G
Quite often I notice a false argument is being made. It’s not about dictatorial powers. it’s about raising the issue and engaging in important discussions.
TG Chicago
@Weaselone:
Is it within the President’s power to publicly call on Congress to repeal the Patriot Act? Pretty sure it is.
TG Chicago
@Another Halocene Human:
If you don’t like Greenwald, fine. But the labels you apply to him here are simply false. It doesn’t help your case if you support it with lies.
(apologies in advance if this was a joke that I misunderstood)
mclaren
@TG Chicago:
Counterrevolutionary running dog traitors like Glenn Greenwald must be subjected to thought reform. They’re grifters and parasites on the body of the glorious state.
All hail our Dear Leader, comrade!
mclaren
@TG Chicago:
It’s within the president’s power to call on anyone to do anything. The question is, will they pay attention?
[Shakespeare, Henry the Fourth, Part 1, Scene 3, Act 1]
TG Chicago
I’m pretty sure the spirits will not come from the vasty deep if you don’t bother even to call for them.
Omnes Omnibus
@Ted & Hellen: I said “our country’s” and that is what I meant. Obama is included, and so is everyone else.
LAC
@mclaren: oh shut up already.