Gonna head home from work right after my training class. I feel horrible.
A co-worker half-jokingly advised that I call a government agency (that I need to talk to) ASAP today because “they are government workers and they’ll be gone by 2:00 today.” I gently chided her for that.
Feel better soon.
7.
smintheus
If the NSA is able to snoop on every single electronic record ever, why wasn’t the govt ever able to find enough evidence to prosecute the banksters for blowing up the economy?
If the NSA is able to snoop on every single electronic record ever, why wasn’t the govt ever able to find enough evidence to prosecute the banksters for blowing up the economy?
Almost makes you think that the concerns are overblown and they can’t actually do anything with the information without a warrant, doesn’t it?
If the NSA is able to snoop on every single electronic record ever, why wasn’t the govt ever able to find enough evidence to prosecute the banksters for blowing up the economy?
Who said that they weren't able to find enough evidence to prosecute? Much more likely they made a decision not to prosecute, as occurred with HSBC in a big money-laundering case. Ya know, some people are just “too big to prosecute”.
ETA: No BJ denizen is “too big to prosecute”, just FYI.
14.
quannlace
“Luckily, the tropical storm didn’t wash away her rawhide bone”
*******
Thank the LORD!
It just got a little mushy, right? Ick.
15.
pacem appellant
Netroots anyone? It’s in less than two weeks. I’m stoked that it’s coming to my home town.
I don’t know if people already said it, but I’d like to say I don’t mind the uproar over the surveillance stuff, as much as it reeks of IOKIYAR and general cluelessness about the Patriot Act.
Unlike the drone debate, in which people appear to be focusing on weaponry rather than the rationale behind the GWOT, I feel that regular folks can grasp privacy concerns pretty well. This more than anything else will create a constituency that might actually care consistently about these issues in the future. That assorted right wingers created this conversation doesn’t matter.
Privacy concerns strike me as something like muscle cars or albums that are a 20th century thing. The expectation of privacy was probably an anomaly like cheap oil and business pensions. I don’t know that young people today even care or even that they should. YMMV but I think of suburbs as the physical manifestation of privacy concerns and look how much trouble they’ve caused us.
23.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
But isn’t that just how dogs like it, just as you and I like our food to be spicy?
@jeffreyw: Aawww sweet! How is your gang? How is Katie.
25.
scav
@Amir Khalid: ‘Sides, isn’t there a tradition of doing nearly exactly that to meat, especially game meat (ok, above ground I think. mostly from books.)
@Amir Khalid: True that! Any spicy recipes you would like to share?
27.
Comrade Mary
OK, when I first saw the pic, I thought it was “A BEAR! A BEAR! ALL COVERED WITH HAIR!” and then I saw it was a sweet Boxer, also covered with hair, but not associated with any problematic songs. Nice!
Chretien says conservation officers have received four calls about bears breaking into cars, including one involving a Porsche.
He advises residents not to leave food or lock up garbage in their cars.
“They don’t have the container, so they’ll go put it in the vehicle and shut the door and bears will just go, ‘What is this?’ and it’s just a bigger container,” he said.
28.
Cassidy
Took the day off. Beat an interview like Chris Bosh was guarding me. Now it’s MW3 and some Kid Cudi. Today is a good day.
@Linnaeus: Tell her we have rules specifically barring that kind of thing.
@SatanicPanic: I said on an earlier thread, the moment we fired up the good ol’ 2400 and decided we wanted to look at “kitties”, our privacy went the way of the dodo.
29.
Socoolsofresh
The chance of an American being killed in a terrorist attack is 1 in 20 million. Being hit by lightning is 1 in 5 million. Yet some of you guys believe that in order to be safe from a 1 in 20 mil possible death, you must lose all your privacy. And to expect it. Are totally fine with the government collecting it all, as long as it has now become bipartisan consensus.
Also love how people are like, well I was upset about it like 6 years ago, whats the big deal now, like finding out you are constantly being monitored by the government is like listening to a band before they became big. Haha, now you don’t care about them, since its so mainstream now! Seriously, is there anything that the current administration can do that will cross the line with you guys? Obama could nuke France tomorrow and I imagine people here would be “Well, I never liked baguettes so I guess its justified.”
30.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Nice job of avoiding mention of a $2 billion dollar fine and the fact that, while the company has avoided prosecution so far, it is actually only a deferred prosecution that could be restarted and that three individuals have been arrested and charged.
31.
FourTen
My office’s computers are still not up and running at 100%.
Seriously, is there anything that the current administration can do that will cross the line with you guys?
No. There, now are you satisfied?
33.
FlipYrWhig
@SatanicPanic: It strikes me as something like the nuclear freeze movement or unionization — at one point very important to the way liberals self-define as liberals, and then, not.
Also, I do love how TPM is framing this. And by love, I mean admire the link-bait-y lede: “Obama Dismisses NSA ‘Hype’”
In full remarks, Barack Obama was not dismissive about concerns even while asserting his ultimate directive as POTUS to do whatever he feels he feels can legally do under the current structure.
So in summary, what you’ve got is two programs that were originally authorized by Congress, have been repeatedly authorized by Congress. Bipartisan majorities have approved (on them ?). Congress is continually briefed on how these are conducted. There are a whole range of safeguards involved. And federal judges are overseeing the entire program throughout. And we’re also setting up — we’ve also set up an audit process when I came into office to make sure that we’re, after the fact, making absolutely certain that all the safeguards are being properly observed.
Now, having said all that, you’ll remember when I made that speech a couple of weeks ago about the need for us to shift out of a perpetual war mindset. I specifically said that one of the things that we’re going to have to discuss and debate is how were we striking this balance between the need to keep the American people safe and our concerns about privacy, because there are some trade-offs involved.
And I welcome this debate. And I think it’s healthy for our democracy. I think it’s a sign of maturity, because probably five years ago, six years ago, we might not have been having this debate. And I think it’s interesting that there are some folks on the left, but also some folks on the right who are now worried about it who weren’t very worried about it when it was a Republican president. I think that’s good that we’re having this discussion.
But I think it’s important for everybody to understand, and I think the American people understand, that there are some trade-offs involved. You know, I came in with a health skepticism about these programs. My team evaluated them. We scrubbed them thoroughly. We actually expanded some of the oversight, increased some of the safeguards. But my assessment and my team’s assessment was that they help us prevent terrorist attacks. And the modest encroachments on privacy that are involved in getting phone numbers or duration without a name attached and not looking at content — that on, you know, net, it was worth us doing.
That’s — some other folks may have a different assessment of that. But I think it’s important to recognize that you can’t have a hundred percent security and also then have a hundred percent privacy and zero inconvenience. You know, we’re going to have to make some choices as a society.
… That’s not to suggest that, you know, you just say, trust me, we’re doing the right thing, we know who the bad guys are. And the reason that’s not how it works is because we’ve got congressional oversight and judicial oversight. And if people can’t trust not only the executive branch but also don’t trust Congress and don’t trust federal judges to make sure that we’re abiding by the Constitution, due process and rule of law, then we’re going to have some problems here.
35.
Cassidy
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): That kind of things (facts) doesn’t fit in with his/her narrative of how awful Obama is.
@Cassidy: I’m just wondering if the end of privacy is not a good thing. Having such an individualistic society means we can’t face most of the big challenges we have before us. I mean, libertarians can get upset that we’re losing freedom, but what good has all that freedom done? I don’t want to get all Slate contrarian style here, I’m just kind of spitballing
@Socoolsofresh: Honestly? SOme of us think that it’s incredibly naive to think the various intelligence agencies, the majority of which you’ve never heard of, haven’t been doing this for years, if not decades. And this notion of privacy? It’s cute. Why don’t you come on in and join us in 2013 where everything you’ve been doing for the past two decades is online.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Nice job of avoiding mention of a $2 billion dollar fine and the fact that, while the company has avoided prosecution so far, it is actually only a deferred prosecution that could be restarted and that three individuals have been arrested and charged.
1. A $2 billion for HSBC is like a $2 fine for me or you; 2. Prosecutors have stated that prosecuting HSBC would have unacceptable “collateral consequences”, so “deferred prosecution” is going to become “no prosecution”; 3. The 3 people arrested cited in the article were arrested in connection with a different matter not involving HSBC.
If the NSA is able to snoop on every single electronic record ever, why wasn’t the govt ever able to find enough evidence to prosecute the banksters for blowing up the economy?
Because they hate you personally.
42.
Cassidy
@SatanicPanic: I don’t have an issue with privacy and i do think there needs to be clearly defined limits of what can or can’t be done with our information. The real scandal is that our legislature has told private companies that they can do whatever they want with it for a profit and that they’re too lazy and bugfuck crazy to sit down and legislate. I will be happy to see this quaint notion of privacy as a shield against taking responsibility for one’s actions getting thrown out. God that pisses me of.
ETA: No BJ denizen is “too big to prosecute”, just FYI.
Tunch begs to differ.
44.
Amir Khalid
@SatanicPanic:
I don’t agree that an expectation of privacy is a historical anomaly that’s now on its way out. We need privacy for keeping our dignity (as Anthony Weiner and too many teenage sexters have learned), for our sense of control over our own lives, for our sanity. Now, people isolating themselves from community in suburbs and gated residential areas is certainly not a positive development for any society. But the growing surveillance powers of the state, and its threat to personal privacy, is a different problem, and we shouldn’t conflate the two.
And if people can’t trust not only the executive branch but also don’t trust Congress and don’t trust federal judges to make sure that we’re abiding by the Constitution, due process and rule of law, then we’re going to have some problems here.
heh.
imagine the uproar if the govt had access to everybody’s non-anonymized medical records!
46.
LAC
@Socoolsofresh: Just a couple questions: Do you vote regularly? Have you contacted your congressman/woman on this matter in the last seven years? Despite this horrifying “revelation”, are you still downloading your asian porn?
Seriously, is there anything that the current administration can do that will cross the line with you guys?
To quote:
That’s not to suggest that, you know, you just say, trust me, we’re doing the right thing, we know who the bad guys are. And the reason that’s not how it works is because we’ve got congressional oversight and judicial oversight. And if people can’t trust not only the executive branch but also don’t trust Congress and don’t trust federal judges to make sure that we’re abiding by the Constitution, due process and rule of law, then we’re going to have some problems here.
Your problem isn’t with the ‘current administration’ unless you have some suggestion that they are violating the courts and Congress. Nobody has suggested any such thing – including Obama’s strongest opponents. Your problem is that you don’t trust the entirety of how this nation operates. That’s your prerogative, but short of redrafting a Constitution, your only recourse is to move.
1. A $2 billion for HSBC is like a $2 fine for me or you
This is true only if your annual income is about $3. Go take a look at their 10-K.
2. Prosecutors have stated that prosecuting HSBC would have unacceptable “collateral consequences”, so “deferred prosecution” is going to become “no prosecution”
Not necessarily, but even if this is true, being under a deferred prosecution has plenty of consequences of its own. Complying with it means a whole lot of costs on top of the fine.
3. The 3 people arrested cited in the article were arrested in connection with a different matter not involving HSBC.
They didn’t work for HSBC but they were most definitely arrested for involvement in the LIBOR manipulation.
@SatanicPanic:
I don’t agree that an expectation of privacy is a historical anomaly that’s now on its way out. We need privacy for keeping our dignity (as Anthony Weiner and too many teenage sexters have learned), for our sense of control over our own lives, for our sanity. Now, people isolating themselves from community in suburbs and gated residential areas is certainly not a positive development for any society. But the growing surveillance powers of the state, and its threat to personal privacy, is a different problem, and we shouldn’t conflate the two.
Privacy also preserves our ability to control our governments. If governments know everything we’re doing, they can much more easily manipulate us into silence.
This possibility is becoming more likely with the proliferation (and sometimes partial privatization) of the criminal law.
Now, most people don’t have the first idea what’s in the TOSes of the sites they visit. And, further, the TOSes are under the site owners’ control and can be changed on a whim. So we have a criminal offense dynamically redefined by private entities, reaching who knows what behavior.
Such a law is exactly the kind of thing government can use selectively — perhaps to suppress dissent. But to do so, it needs to know who’s violated it.
Enter large-scale government spying. Now they know.
I hope that makes B-J denizens all warm and fuzzy.
52.
shortstop
Boxers + chickens. What could go wrong?
@schrodinger’s cat: Yeah, Amir! Share. You, too, Schrod. No point having crazy Indian in-laws if you don’t get culinary rewards for your suffering.
This more than anything else will create a constituency that might actually care consistently about these issues in the future. That assorted right wingers created this conversation doesn’t matter.
Once there’s a Republican President privacy concerns will no longer matter to right-wingers. Their guys is in charge fixing the mess made by Obama and that’s all that matters to them.
Look at how Republicans went from deficits don’t matter to OMG! Deficits are the worstest thing evah…except when they propose the Ryan Budget which will balloon the deficit BUT (and this is an important BUT) will stick it to the poors and olds, so that makes a bigger deficit OK
Logical consistency isn’t a right-wing strong point.
@Amir Khalid: But I think “government out of my business” comes from the same place as “society out of my business”. We’ve smashed the definition of society, in some ways for the better, but that means that individuals are going to be doing some bad things with that freedom, and no one’s going to put up with terrorism for long. Either we have to be in other’s peoples’ business all the time (either online or by snooping on our neighbors) or the government will do it.
I grew up in a small town, and the idea that people won’t be in your business all the time is a foreign one to me. So there’s that.
56.
Mike E
We’re getting hammered by TS Andrea here in Mayberry, widowmakers flying everywhere!
@shortstop: I has two recipes on my blog, one for chicken and one for shrimp. More to follow. In-laws are vegetarian, and eat simple food, so culinary rewards are limited.
Once there’s a Republican President privacy concerns will no longer matter to right-wingers.
That’s certainly true. Indeed, they don’t matter to plenty of right-wingers right now, including Lindsay Graham. However, they’ll still matter to dedicated civil libertarians, as they always have.
Privacy also preserves our ability to control our governments. If governments know everything we’re doing, they can much more easily manipulate us into silence.
This sounds true in theory, but in practice I don’t see how it makes a difference. Silence on what?
If governments know everything we’re doing, they can much more easily manipulate us into silence.
They don’t really need to know much more than what advertisers already know, and have already got a level of silence that’s perfectly dandy, thank you, all acquired on other people’s nickels.
Why spend good sweat, and good money, doing what 1/4 of the nation’s economy, from Netflix to Nascar to National Prayer Week already does a fine job with?
We care about this stuff. We spend a lot of time on the internet reading and writing about it. Normal people — like the other 17 out of every 20 — not so much. It’s easy to lose track of who ‘us’ really is.
@Cassidy: We definitely need to legislate real rules. I just think there is a connection between “I don’t want anyone in my business” and inability to legislate in this country. Probably because libertarians have a huge blind spot for anything that’s not government power. But opposition to actual governance creates, ironically, more government power. I just wonder if privacy as an end unto itself is a bad idea.
@Betty Cracker: Sorry, I stand corrected. Daisy Mayhem, great name, btw, can wear a Chanel tweed jacket while she smokes her pipe.
66.
The Dangerman
Obama is in Santa Monica…
…and there is a mass shooting at Santa Monica City College.
ETA: Obama is a few miles away, but close enough that I’m sure this would impact him in some fashion, especially if SMPD is being pulled from him to the scene.
Silence on anything that the government wants enough, and that is being obstructed by activists effectively enough. As someone noted in another thread, government wasn’t above spying on, e.g., MLK, then using the resulting evidence of adultery to try to coerce him to water down his activism.
The more government knows, the easier it is for it to repeat that performance in other contexts.
68.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: Ya, ya. Ho hum, nothing we can do about it. Its been around forever. All cool that the government and also major corporations still believe in secrecy and privacy and clutch to it tightly, but average Joe is just supposed to think its quaint. Ya, I need to get with the times. Privacy for the powerful, total exposure for everyone else.
The expectation of privacy was probably an anomaly like cheap oil and business pensions.
We has a winner.
I was just talking to a new acquaintance at the birthday party for a mutual friend about the losses of the socially networked world. Our youth coming up (we’re both gay from waaay back in the olden days) don’t appreciate how easy we made it for them, by comparison (you’re welcome, and get your pierced tattooed lil’ azzes offa my lawn).
But they don’t get the right to reinvent themselves either. Both of us, kids from small towns who ran away to the Big Gay Metros as teen dropouts, have been able to make wonderful lives for our own families…and the youth today can’t ever have that experience. We were able to be anonymous, and start over, forging new connections with our chosen families.
It’s a post-anonymity world now. That was a blip, between the Carter administration (first WH declaration of gay pride, y’all!) and about 1999, and it was different than any world before or after it, for my people.
Not necessarily sad, or bad, just…gone. And I’m not sure yet how that ties into this world in which there ain’t no such thing as privacy because both Netflix and Eric Holder are looking at everything you did last weekend…but it does.
70.
Socoolsofresh
@LAC: Ya, totally. While things are all good and peaceful, all I have to worry about is my asian porn. Don’t worry about if things in the future may get chaotic, like say due to lack of resources, and the government strikes down with a heavy hand with laws they put into place right now.
I’m sure if I write a well written letter or leave a voice message they will take my concerns into consideration. I feel like more likely they will flag my secret dossier profile, and consider me a potential future threat. Its probably way easier, then you know, governing democratically.
71.
Nerdlinger
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Then we should be fighting for more transparency instead of waging a losing war for privacy. Watch the watchers, spy on the spy, blah blah blah.
We have the heavy rain before the winds pick up. It will rain tomorrow. Andrea is fading away and that is good.
Flash flooding is possible in some areas.
we all got flash flood alerts on our cell phones, about an hour ago. everybody in the office giggled at once.
74.
Cassidy
@SatanicPanic: I think part of it goes back to our more puritan outlook. People aren’t concerned about the NSA tracking their computer usage; they’re worried about that one time they got really curious and looked up the donkey show. They’re worried it will come out that their neighbor will know they have predilection for young, athletic blonds and, lo and behold, the neighbor has a daughter who looks like that. People think they’re secrets are really dark secrets when the reality is we’re prettymuch the same.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: But a modern day MLK has no reasonable expectation of that not being a secret anyway, because a modern-day Andrew Breitbart would have found out about already.
The thing is, we have clear examples in the Arab Spring of people in oppressive government getting up and throwing them off, and I’m pretty sure most of those people thought their governments were snooping on them.
76.
LAC
@Socoolsofresh: Yeah, and that thinking makes it easier to not vote or be active politically. Too much work, dude, and the Man will get you too, am I right?
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Then we should be fighting for more transparency instead of waging a losing war for privacy. Watch the watchers, spy on the spy, blah blah blah.
How about we fight for more transparency and fight hard to regain privacy? Why should we abandon our western front because we have another enemy on the east?
78.
Lee
Reddit had a post up of an excellent article by David Foster about security. It seems to be a good thing to read today.
@Socoolsofresh: Paranoia and hyperbole gets you nowhere with me. If you want to do the Infowars schtick, go ahead, but I’m not gonna feed into your fever dreams.
Our youth coming up (we’re both gay from waaay back in the olden days) don’t appreciate how easy we made it for them, by comparison (you’re welcome, and get your pierced tattooed lil’ azzes offa my lawn).
LMAO!
81.
MomSense
I went to a fancy salon for a hair cut and it is true that everything old is new again. The latest thing in hair is the same cut I had 25 years ago.
Gray kitties with green eyes are the BEST! That’s what my late great Boris had, and he was the best, sweetest, most wonderful and loving cat ever. (Note I didn’t say “smart.” But his other qualities were more important.)
83.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Ah, true. Different issues After looking farther what I found is that HSBC is paying a $1.9 billion fine on a money laundering operation that involved $880 million. Sounds pretty hefty to me.
How about we fight for more transparency and fight hard to regain privacy?
Unless you’re willing to also fight private businesses and trust the government to regulate them, you’re fighting a losing battle. There’s no point in banning the government from compiling the same data Google is.
85.
ThresherK
Apropos of nothing but openthread, I’m wondering if anyone knows anyone who’s seen “Now You See Me”.
It’s supposed to be about magicians turning “tricks”, er, “illusions!”.
But the Chaplin/Keaton/Lloyd fan in me asks “When is the camera lying?”
@Cassidy: It should be a relief to their neighbors that they’re fapping to someone like their daughter, not their actual daughter, which I’m sure was what people did in the olden days.
88.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Boris is an excellent name for a cat. Or a boxer dog, for that matter…
The latest thing in hair is the same cut I had 25 years ago.
my wife keeps trying to get me to agree to paint the rooms in our house medium gray. every time she brings it up, i say “No, I do not want to live in Jerry Seinfeld’s apartment.”
@Cassidy: Well pigeon-holing and name calling has no place with me. You say get used to no privacy, but when I say government cares about its own privacy, all the sudden its info wars craziness? Wow, you walk on a tightrope of what is deemed acceptable discussion. Not surprising really, people here love categorizing and name calling anyone who isn’t on the same page. I guess its easier then debating the points with reason and facts.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: But a modern day MLK has no reasonable expectation of that not being a secret anyway, because a modern-day Andrew Breitbart would have found out about already.
I think you added an extra “not” in there. But your argument is entirely defeatist, and also goes way beyond the evidence. For a modern example, John Edwards’s adultery wasn’t publicly revealed until he’d already lost the 2008 nomination. No, it is not true that the internet knows everything about you. But defeatism on privacy will help ensure that that becomes true.
The thing is, we have clear examples in the Arab Spring of people in oppressive government getting up and throwing them off, and I’m pretty sure most of those people thought their governments were snooping on them.
Sometimes governments get so bad that armed revolution — damn the consequences — is the only alternative (e.g., 1776). I hope we can limit our own governments sufficiently, via the various forms of activism (unimpeded by spying fears), that we never have to consider the alternatives. I hope you’re not recommending letting things get that bad?
Well, a little late to the thread, but here goes. Don’t know if anyone has pondered my forum name, but it refers to the old Art Bell Coast To Coast show. I find talk of UFO’s and Bigfoot entertaining (though I don’t take it at all seriously). There is a forum devoted to the subject of how that radio program has gone completely into the toilet since Art Bell left. They are a mixed group: I think it’s probably something like 40% conservative, 30% liberal, 20% undecided, 10% utterly uninformed and disinterested.
Anyway, the conservative group seems to be under the impression that suddenly all good libs are supporting Obama and defending these cyber-searches. Convincing them otherwise appears impossible. Of course, convincing them that global warming is real and that Obama is not Kenyan-born is impossible, too. Have any of you BJers noticed a similar dynamic at any other forums you venture into? Do people really think that all progressives are suddenly down with HSA and wire-tapping and such?
Do people really think that all progressives are suddenly down with HSA and wire-tapping and such?
Read the comments here. Many people are definitely OK with pretty much any form of government spying, and many with also pretty much any form of corporate spying.
Me? I’m a card-carrying member of the A.C.L.U., and want to roll back the spying.
How about we fight for more transparency and fight hard to regain privacy?
Unless you’re willing to also fight private businesses and trust the government to regulate them, you’re fighting a losing battle. There’s no point in banning the government from compiling the same data Google is.
Hey guess what? I also want corporate spying rolled back. Who would’a thunk someone might object to all the spying, not just the gubmint part of it?
@West of the Rockies:
in my travels, i’ve not seen much partisan division on this. there’s no way it can be, really: the politicians of both parties love this stuff.
it really breaks into paranoid/distrustful and resigned/trusting groups, which have almost nothing to do with the liberal v conservative split.
@Mnemosyne: Gubmint is ebil, Corporations is good. Ayn Rand said so.
Uh, no. Spying is evil, whether done by government or corporations.
100.
Cassidy
@West of the Rockies: You have to check out Monster Talk. It’s a podcast about cryptozoology.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: You continuously and deliberately confuse acceptance and condoning. Well, to be fair, you deliberately confuse anything that doesn’t fit in your “Obama is worse than Bush” narrative.
@Socoolsofresh: /eyeroll, yes woe is you you blog martyr, you.
Doing some potty training and trying to get some work done today. We put up a scorecard to mark how many times she’s gone on the floor (5) and how many in the potty (2). She’s some sort of camel or something. I’m about to cut her off from liquids permanently.
103.
eemom
hmm, I wonder if this NSA thing is hiring. Seems like it could use a lawyer or two.
I hate my current job so bad I would work for the Antichrist.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: I’ve got the ACLU card as well. We can certainly fight for greater privacy rights, but there’s no going back to the pre-digital world. Your phone calls will all be recorded, somewhere. So too all your browsing, all your credit card purchases, every bank action, your grocery cart, your power usage, etc. As well as everytime you go into a public space you will be recorded.
There’s no avoiding this. We can fight for access rights, encryption issues, etc. But we’ll never be anonymous again – that is if you remain in society. Head for the hills and cut all wires if you want privacy like in the old days.
Actually, it does matter that assorted right wingers created this conversation, because the conversation is a red herring.
It’s that usurper in the White House that is the REAL problem. If there were a Rethug in there, anyone broaching this issue would be committing high treason.
@West of the Rockies: Do you know the show “Survivorman”, with Les Stroud? He was on Joe Rogan’s podcast and he’s got some great stories of being in the middle of nowhere and hearing… something. He’s not saying it was Bigfoot, but it was something weird. Check it out here.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: When it came out about John Edwards is neither here nor there. The point is that he was a fool for thinking it wouldn’t.
I’m not being a defeatist, that would imply that I actually think widespread privacy is a good thing, and I’m not convinced that it is. Privacy rights is starting to sound suspiciously like 2nd Amendment rights in my ears, and as far as keeping governments in check, I don’t buy that 2nd Amendment rights do much of anything either.
109.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: There you go. So I guess you don’t believe the government is concerned about its own secrecy, it’s own privacy then. That’s just info wars paranoia.
Government and private corporations care about their privacy, because guess what? Privacy is important, its precious! They know that! But to you, individuals are supposed to believe that its quaint.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: You continuously and deliberately confuse acceptance and condoning.
1. Many here clearly condone high levels of governmental and corporate spying. 2. Accepting evil — when a simple, relatively safe alternative exists to contest it — is close to condoning evil.
Well, to be fair, you deliberately confuse anything that doesn’t fit in your “Obama is worse than Bush” narrative.
Aw, I hurt yer feelings by objecting to spying that I’ve objected to since I first became aware of its possibility, sometime around, er, Watergate. Well, to be fair, yer feelings get hurt by anything that doesn’t fit your “Everyone who objects to an Obama policy is persecuting him because they’re racist ratfucking Republicans” narrative. But fap on.
112.
Trollhattan
In case there remained any doubt, Whole Foods: still dicks.
New Mexico Gov. Susana Martinez says she’s glad Whole Foods Market is reviewing its employee language policy after two of its Spanish-speaking workers in Albuquerque were suspended.
Martinez is a Republican and the nation’s only Latina governor. She told The Associated Press on Friday that Spanish is “part of the fabric of what makes New Mexico great.”
Whole Foods’ policy says all English-speaking workers must speak English to customers and other employees while on the clock, unless the customer speaks another language.
The Austin, Texas-based organic grocery chain says it’s re-examining its policy after the two Albuquerque workers said they were suspended after complaining about it. Whole Foods Market Inc. says the suspensions were for “rude” behavior.
I’m not being a defeatist, that would imply that I actually think widespread privacy is a good thing, and I’m not convinced that it is. Privacy rights is starting to sound suspiciously like 2nd Amendment rights in my ears, and as far as keeping governments in check, I don’t buy that 2nd Amendment rights do much of anything either.
What’s next? That the 1st Amendment doesn’t do much of anything either?
@Socoolsofresh: I think you’re commenting on a blog, using the internet and some sort of social media, and probably have a smartphone or tablet of some sort. I’m also guessing you use google and visit sites with targeted ads. If you’re discovering that you’re very concerned about your privacy anytime in the last few years, I’m sorry, but you’re naive. This is not new. This is not special. This is what intelligence services and corporations do; they collect data and they manipulate that data to reach their own ends.
@ranchandsyrup:
She’s doing well. It’s hard to get the hang of it.
Good on you for the patience.
When she’s old enough to drink, she’ll pee on the floor then too.
Cheery, huh?
@Tonal (visible) Crow: I agree with you in principle. But bitching about it on blogs accomplishes nothing.
That’s why I don’t just bitch about it on blogs. I call and write my politicians — and sometimes even visit them in person. I strongly support organizations that litigate and lobby. I sometimes (but not often enough, admittedly) march in the streets. You?
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Of course the 1st does. The 25th, however, does not. What does that have to do with anything?
121.
Trollhattan
Busy day. 2nd Amendment(pbuh) rights being exercised at Santa Monica College.
Santa Monica College was put on lockdown Friday after a shooting was reported in the school’s library, reports CBS Los Angeles.
Someone fired gunshots near the campus of Santa Monica College shortly before noon Friday, police said, and several people were reported to be wounded. KCLA-9 reported three people were taken to hospital, two listed in critical condition.
Police Sgt. Rudy Flores said the wounded included the shooter, who was also reported to be in custody. He did not elaborate on the extent of the wounds.
Flores said numerous witnesses called to report that the shooting began with a man on a street corner near the college firing shots at vehicles, including a bus.
Several witnesses also reported two separate shooting incidents, although it was unclear if there was more than one gunman.
California Highway Patrol Officer Vince Ramirez said his agency began receiving 911 calls just minutes before noon.
“We understand one shooter was taken into custody shortly after we arrived,” he said.
Ramirez said officers were searching the 38-acre campus after witness said there may have been a second shooter who fled onto the campus. He emphasized that those reports were unconfirmed.
In other California crime news, Richard Ramirez [no connection to the above] has croaked. I hope some of his victims get to “have a word.”
122.
Cassidy
@eemom: The NSA, and CIA for that matter, are always hiring. They don’t have to put their open positions on USAJobs. You have to go to them directly, fill out an application, and if they have need of your particular skills, they’ll contact you. The application stays in their system for 90 days, IIRC, and then it gets dumped if their is no action on it.
@Maude: Maude, that is hilarious ’cause it’s going to be true. Thanks, I needed a laugh.
Also, one of our little dogs puked in the bed last night. Apparently I liked it as I rolled around in it. Bad day for bodily fluids in my house.
@Cassidy: Just pick up your phone, dial a random number and shout I WANNA WORK FOR THE NSA! They’ll get the message.
125.
Raven
Back from Savannah, ruined my MacBook Pro Tuesday, got a speeding ticket going down there dropped my iPad and cracked the screen Wednesday, Andrea blew in and screwed up any outdoor fun. White people problems rule!
@Trollhattan: Me lubs British accents. I just finished seeing both the Original Tinker Tailor and Smiley’s People recently. Great drama, great acting.
133.
Poopyman
@Cassidy: Yeah,but since she’s in NoVA she should stick with the CIA to avoid a commute from hell.
And there’s always (Redacted) Agency #3.
134.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: Ah I see, accept and submit. This is how its been, and how it will always be. The internet used to be known for its ability of anonymity, some saw it as a problem. Obviously those who did solved that problem and now you want us to accept that its always been like this, and there is no solution.
Like I said, MLK wasn’t the only one right, but damned if I haven’t seen MLK surveillance invoked by people for the last 48hrs. I mean can I get another example please.
Just saying
141.
The Dangerman
Obama going back to LAX by motorcade, not helicopter … early afternoon on a Friday with Santa Monica having multiple shooting locations … um, former neighbors on the Westside, you may want to stay home.
ETA: And isn’t tomorrow graduation at UCLA? Oh, yeah, avoid the Westside.
Google says No. Fuck No. to the rumor that the govt has access to their servers.
That’s meaningless, and is not how large volumes of electronic data are typically exchanged anyway. Google pushes its data to a government server, then blusters that THE GOVERNMENT CAN’T ACCESS OUR SERVERS!!! Well so what?
Of course the government is not taking any data from Google. It doesn’t need to because Google is spoon-feeding the data to the government. Google’s statement is full of strawman assertions of what it is not doing, but says nothing about what it is doing.
It’s all smoke and mirrors.
143.
Cassidy
@Poopyman: True, but the NSA people were much nicer even when they rejected my application.
Indeed, I pass right by that place on my way to my current inferno.
145.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: Right, exactly! Your mind was made up a long time ago. You heard it and then decided to close your thinking like a vault. Give it some dismissive name, and trot that out instead. Get with the program. So over it. Obviously you are. No privacy is the new normal. Otherwise you must be some libertarian crank.
Actually, that’s what a lot of us have been saying. You all aren’t upset at the loss of privacy or liberty or freedom or whatever. You’re mad that the illusion has been lost. Your privacy was nothing more than an illusion. There are 16 organizations that make up the intelligence community. I guarantee there are more than that with a lot more loose regulation. From the wiki, there are 1,271 government organizations and 1,931 private companies in 10,000 locations in the United States that are working on counterterrorism, homeland security, and intelligence. How does anyone think that this hasn’t been going on, in some form, for a very long time?
ETA: I’ve said it in other threads, but if you all are worried about a boogeyman, it ain’t the NSA.
I’d rather work for MI6. Because, accents. And they must have a pub in the building, also, too.
Hmmm….I notice that any mention of Miss Moneypenny is conspicuous in its absence in your carefully crafted statement.
149.
Cassidy
@Socoolsofresh: Are you planning on sticking around? I mean, if you are, I’ll just pie you; I ain’t got a lot of time for conspiracy theory shit. If you’re just trotting through here as a phase or manic episode or something, though, I won’t expend the energy.
Hey guess what? I also want corporate spying rolled back. Who would’a thunk someone might object to all the spying, not just the gubmint part of it?
If you don’t trust the government, and you don’t trust private business, who do you picture enforcing the rules against spying?
I’m all in favor of at a minimum forcing both private and public entities that gather this information to protect it better and limit what they can do with it (again, I think Europe has a very good model), but who do you picture enforcing the rules if not the government?
151.
Raven
@Cassidy: It’s the same asshole with a different handle.
If you don’t trust the government, and you don’t trust private business, who do you picture enforcing the rules against spying?
This is a good question.
153.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: I’ve been here for a while. What I used to admire is that this websites founder left his old party affiliation and did a re-evaluation of what he stood for. It was refreshing to see someone who thought for themselves, was independent. Little did I know is all that ended up happening was that he just started cheerleading for a different team. And then just got some Democratic partisan authoritarians like you to back him up. So ya, keep pieing me with your amazing conventional wisdom.
You all aren’t upset at the loss of privacy or liberty or freedom or whatever.
Well I am, but my primary concern is that of government overreach and abuse of power through secrecy and backdoor legislation..
It’s one thing to brag that you knew about this all along, but the government has always played the “National Security” card, so as a practical matter nobody could do anything about it.
About a month ago Obama lectured us on winding down the government’s war on terror, yet the evidence suggests that he has been ramping it up. Right now Obama is meeting with China, no longer able to lecture them about electronic spying.
The shit is hitting the fan. Or in the words of Rev. Wright, America’s chickens are coming home to roost.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Oh, thank you for looking down on us from the perch on Mt. Perfection. The hoi polloi salutes you. I especially loved your 2001 piece “Why I will fight with every fiber of my being to defeat the Patriot Act” And your 2004 piece “Why I will fight with every fiber of my being to defeat Bush” and your 2010 post “Why I will fight with every fiber of my being to elect members of congress who will help repeal the Patriot Act”
158.
PhoenixRising
@ranchandsyrup: 5 on the target, 2 misfires, ain’t a bad day. It’s a good start.
We potty trained during March Madness, because the moms were planning to sit in front of ESPN for both weekend days, two weekends in a row. By Easter, we had a winner and champion.
Also, are you using the cotton-wad-crotch old-fashioned training pants? Highly rec’d. Nothing post-plastic-era seems to work to communicate the connection, ‘open sphincter, feel yucky’, because it doesn’t feel yucky.
159.
West of the Rockies
@Redshirt: Hey, Redshirt ~ I’ve encountered that Les Stroud material before — it is interesting. Honestly, I think a lot of the UFO, ghosts, etc., stuff is entertaining. I feel a bit like a 13-year-old again sitting under the stars in the summer when I hear such stories. Can’t say I give them much credence, but they are intriguing. That TV show Monster Quest was sort of fun to watch but so silly as well. It pretty much always ended along the lines of, “Scientists cannot say for sure what this witness saw that night in the forest eleven years ago.” (As if scientists are actually spending a lot of time pondering the guy’s “encounter” anyway!)
Also, are you using the cotton-wad-crotch old-fashioned training pants? Highly rec’d. Nothing post-plastic-era seems to work to communicate the connection, ‘open sphincter, feel yucky’, because it doesn’t feel yucky.
I’ve always kind of assumed that was part of the problem with modern diapers — if the toddler never feels wet or uncomfortable, how do they learn to associate the urge to go with the results (as it were)?
@ranchandsyrup: I hope you are talking about a puppy.
If so, put her on a leash and be alert to her sniffing around for someplace to go. When she’s on a leash attached to you, it’s easy to discover these clues. Then, when they appear, whisk her outside, and go nuts when she piddles there.
@Mnemosyne: They do need to be made uncomfortable. That’s where parenting comes in. You point and laugh every time there’s a load in their diaper.
I’m kidding! I wish I had good potty training advice, but our son just magically figured it out one day without much effort on our part.
166.
Amir Khalid
@Mandalay:
Not to nitpick, but John Lennon wasn’t an American citizen.
167.
muddy
@Mnemosyne: I had the best kid ever. He was about 1-1/2, going to daycare, and came home one day saying that he was going to use the potty like a big boy. I said Great, but did not have much expectation. Well, he just did it. “By his all” as he used to say. I hadn’t even brought it up yet. I bless him and gloat whenever the topic comes up.
@West of the Rockies: I’m a skeptic, and I don’t follow any of the “hunting Bigfoot” or “Ancient Alien” crap on TV, but it wouldn’t shock me if there was an undiscovered primate living in the deep woods of Canada/America/Russia, and this primate is the source of all Bigfoot myths.
Yatsuno
PUPPEHS!!!
Gonna head home from work right after my training class. I feel horrible.
Redshirt
I thought that was a pipe for a second and thought “Damn, that’s one classy dog!”
burnspbesq
@Yatsuno:
Looking forward to another three-day weekend next week?
/ducks
JPL
@Yatsuno: ugh.. Take care.
burnspbesq
Has anyone had the NSA “like” anything they’ve put on Facebook?
Linnaeus
@Yatsuno:
A co-worker half-jokingly advised that I call a government agency (that I need to talk to) ASAP today because “they are government workers and they’ll be gone by 2:00 today.” I gently chided her for that.
Feel better soon.
smintheus
If the NSA is able to snoop on every single electronic record ever, why wasn’t the govt ever able to find enough evidence to prosecute the banksters for blowing up the economy?
Violet
Puppies! Looks nice and sunny there now.
burnspbesq
@smintheus:
Because that’s not what they’re looking for, ya big silly.
smintheus
How is blowing up the economy not the equivalent of economic terrorism?
Mnemosyne
@smintheus:
Almost makes you think that the concerns are overblown and they can’t actually do anything with the information without a warrant, doesn’t it?
Nah, that can’t be right.
schrodinger's cat
Goggie looks concerned.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@smintheus:
Who said that they weren't able to find enough evidence to prosecute? Much more likely they made a decision not to prosecute, as occurred with HSBC in a big money-laundering case. Ya know, some people are just “too big to prosecute”.
ETA: No BJ denizen is “too big to prosecute”, just FYI.
quannlace
“Luckily, the tropical storm didn’t wash away her rawhide bone”
*******
Thank the LORD!
It just got a little mushy, right? Ick.
pacem appellant
Netroots anyone? It’s in less than two weeks. I’m stoked that it’s coming to my home town.
schrodinger's cat
Meanwhile, kitteh mews improves great art and makes it bettah.
LAC
@Mnemosyne: That is just cray cray. A legal framework being followed by the guys in the $3,000 dollar suits? C’mon!!!
red dog
My dog buries those rawhide bones for a few weeks until they are good and mushy and then wants to bring them inside. Nope.
schrodinger's cat
@red dog: That’s gross.
jeffreyw
Puppeh thread needs moar kittehs.
Paula
I don’t know if people already said it, but I’d like to say I don’t mind the uproar over the surveillance stuff, as much as it reeks of IOKIYAR and general cluelessness about the Patriot Act.
Unlike the drone debate, in which people appear to be focusing on weaponry rather than the rationale behind the GWOT, I feel that regular folks can grasp privacy concerns pretty well. This more than anything else will create a constituency that might actually care consistently about these issues in the future. That assorted right wingers created this conversation doesn’t matter.
Or one can dream.
SatanicPanic
Privacy concerns strike me as something like muscle cars or albums that are a 20th century thing. The expectation of privacy was probably an anomaly like cheap oil and business pensions. I don’t know that young people today even care or even that they should. YMMV but I think of suburbs as the physical manifestation of privacy concerns and look how much trouble they’ve caused us.
Amir Khalid
@schrodinger’s cat:
But isn’t that just how dogs like it, just as you and I like our food to be spicy?
schrodinger's cat
@jeffreyw: Aawww sweet! How is your gang? How is Katie.
scav
@Amir Khalid: ‘Sides, isn’t there a tradition of doing nearly exactly that to meat, especially game meat (ok, above ground I think. mostly from books.)
schrodinger's cat
@Amir Khalid: True that! Any spicy recipes you would like to share?
Comrade Mary
OK, when I first saw the pic, I thought it was “A BEAR! A BEAR! ALL COVERED WITH HAIR!” and then I saw it was a sweet Boxer, also covered with hair, but not associated with any problematic songs. Nice!
But speaking of bears, did you see this polite Canadian one from B.C.?
Cassidy
Took the day off. Beat an interview like Chris Bosh was guarding me. Now it’s MW3 and some Kid Cudi. Today is a good day.
@Linnaeus: Tell her we have rules specifically barring that kind of thing.
@SatanicPanic: I said on an earlier thread, the moment we fired up the good ol’ 2400 and decided we wanted to look at “kitties”, our privacy went the way of the dodo.
Socoolsofresh
The chance of an American being killed in a terrorist attack is 1 in 20 million. Being hit by lightning is 1 in 5 million. Yet some of you guys believe that in order to be safe from a 1 in 20 mil possible death, you must lose all your privacy. And to expect it. Are totally fine with the government collecting it all, as long as it has now become bipartisan consensus.
Also love how people are like, well I was upset about it like 6 years ago, whats the big deal now, like finding out you are constantly being monitored by the government is like listening to a band before they became big. Haha, now you don’t care about them, since its so mainstream now! Seriously, is there anything that the current administration can do that will cross the line with you guys? Obama could nuke France tomorrow and I imagine people here would be “Well, I never liked baguettes so I guess its justified.”
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Nice job of avoiding mention of a $2 billion dollar fine and the fact that, while the company has avoided prosecution so far, it is actually only a deferred prosecution that could be restarted and that three individuals have been arrested and charged.
FourTen
My office’s computers are still not up and running at 100%.
But screw that, I’m off to E3!
Hal
@Socoolsofresh:
No. There, now are you satisfied?
FlipYrWhig
@SatanicPanic: It strikes me as something like the nuclear freeze movement or unionization — at one point very important to the way liberals self-define as liberals, and then, not.
Paula
@Paula:
Also, I do love how TPM is framing this. And by love, I mean admire the link-bait-y lede: “Obama Dismisses NSA ‘Hype’”
In full remarks, Barack Obama was not dismissive about concerns even while asserting his ultimate directive as POTUS to do whatever he feels he feels can legally do under the current structure.
Cassidy
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): That kind of things (facts) doesn’t fit in with his/her narrative of how awful Obama is.
SatanicPanic
@Cassidy: I’m just wondering if the end of privacy is not a good thing. Having such an individualistic society means we can’t face most of the big challenges we have before us. I mean, libertarians can get upset that we’re losing freedom, but what good has all that freedom done? I don’t want to get all Slate contrarian style here, I’m just kind of spitballing
ranchandsyrup
Some hackneyed thoughts about the slippery slope. http://ranchandsyrup.com/2013/06/07/one-thing-leads-to-another/
Cassidy
@Socoolsofresh: Honestly? SOme of us think that it’s incredibly naive to think the various intelligence agencies, the majority of which you’ve never heard of, haven’t been doing this for years, if not decades. And this notion of privacy? It’s cute. Why don’t you come on in and join us in 2013 where everything you’ve been doing for the past two decades is online.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
1. A $2 billion for HSBC is like a $2 fine for me or you; 2. Prosecutors have stated that prosecuting HSBC would have unacceptable “collateral consequences”, so “deferred prosecution” is going to become “no prosecution”; 3. The 3 people arrested cited in the article were arrested in connection with a different matter not involving HSBC.
Nice job of reading there.
jeffreyw
@schrodinger’s cat: Here’s Katie taking a stroll with Mrs J and the boys.
? Martin
@smintheus:
Because they hate you personally.
Cassidy
@SatanicPanic: I don’t have an issue with privacy and i do think there needs to be clearly defined limits of what can or can’t be done with our information. The real scandal is that our legislature has told private companies that they can do whatever they want with it for a profit and that they’re too lazy and bugfuck crazy to sit down and legislate. I will be happy to see this quaint notion of privacy as a shield against taking responsibility for one’s actions getting thrown out. God that pisses me of.
MattR
@Tonal (visible) Crow:
Tunch begs to differ.
Amir Khalid
@SatanicPanic:
I don’t agree that an expectation of privacy is a historical anomaly that’s now on its way out. We need privacy for keeping our dignity (as Anthony Weiner and too many teenage sexters have learned), for our sense of control over our own lives, for our sanity. Now, people isolating themselves from community in suburbs and gated residential areas is certainly not a positive development for any society. But the growing surveillance powers of the state, and its threat to personal privacy, is a different problem, and we shouldn’t conflate the two.
cleek
@Paula:
heh.
imagine the uproar if the govt had access to everybody’s non-anonymized medical records!
LAC
@Socoolsofresh: Just a couple questions: Do you vote regularly? Have you contacted your congressman/woman on this matter in the last seven years? Despite this horrifying “revelation”, are you still downloading your asian porn?
We’ll wait…
? Martin
@Socoolsofresh:
To quote:
Your problem isn’t with the ‘current administration’ unless you have some suggestion that they are violating the courts and Congress. Nobody has suggested any such thing – including Obama’s strongest opponents. Your problem is that you don’t trust the entirety of how this nation operates. That’s your prerogative, but short of redrafting a Constitution, your only recourse is to move.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Tonal (visible) Crow:
This is true only if your annual income is about $3. Go take a look at their 10-K.
Not necessarily, but even if this is true, being under a deferred prosecution has plenty of consequences of its own. Complying with it means a whole lot of costs on top of the fine.
They didn’t work for HSBC but they were most definitely arrested for involvement in the LIBOR manipulation.
schrodinger's cat
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): When does your teaching job in China begin?
schrodinger's cat
@Redshirt: All he needs now is a tweed jacket with arm patches.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@Amir Khalid:
Privacy also preserves our ability to control our governments. If governments know everything we’re doing, they can much more easily manipulate us into silence.
This possibility is becoming more likely with the proliferation (and sometimes partial privatization) of the criminal law.
For example, under the “Computer Fraud and Abuse Act”, violating a website’s TOS is a felony (yes, the 9th Circuit has struck down this provision, but others have upheld it).
Now, most people don’t have the first idea what’s in the TOSes of the sites they visit. And, further, the TOSes are under the site owners’ control and can be changed on a whim. So we have a criminal offense dynamically redefined by private entities, reaching who knows what behavior.
Such a law is exactly the kind of thing government can use selectively — perhaps to suppress dissent. But to do so, it needs to know who’s violated it.
Enter large-scale government spying. Now they know.
I hope that makes B-J denizens all warm and fuzzy.
shortstop
Boxers + chickens. What could go wrong?
@schrodinger’s cat: Yeah, Amir! Share. You, too, Schrod. No point having crazy Indian in-laws if you don’t get culinary rewards for your suffering.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
Hmm, HSBC earned 5.4 billion BP (~$7.5B) in its most recent quarter: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/may/07/hsbc-profits-surge .
So? The HSBC case involved money laundering, not LIBOR manipulation.
gene108
@Paula:
Once there’s a Republican President privacy concerns will no longer matter to right-wingers. Their guys is in charge fixing the mess made by Obama and that’s all that matters to them.
Look at how Republicans went from deficits don’t matter to OMG! Deficits are the worstest thing evah…except when they propose the Ryan Budget which will balloon the deficit BUT (and this is an important BUT) will stick it to the poors and olds, so that makes a bigger deficit OK
Logical consistency isn’t a right-wing strong point.
SatanicPanic
@Amir Khalid: But I think “government out of my business” comes from the same place as “society out of my business”. We’ve smashed the definition of society, in some ways for the better, but that means that individuals are going to be doing some bad things with that freedom, and no one’s going to put up with terrorism for long. Either we have to be in other’s peoples’ business all the time (either online or by snooping on our neighbors) or the government will do it.
I grew up in a small town, and the idea that people won’t be in your business all the time is a foreign one to me. So there’s that.
Mike E
We’re getting hammered by TS Andrea here in Mayberry, widowmakers flying everywhere!
schrodinger's cat
@shortstop: I has two recipes on my blog, one for chicken and one for shrimp. More to follow. In-laws are vegetarian, and eat simple food, so culinary rewards are limited.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@gene108:
That’s certainly true. Indeed, they don’t matter to plenty of right-wingers right now, including Lindsay Graham. However, they’ll still matter to dedicated civil libertarians, as they always have.
shortstop
@schrodinger’s cat: Why, thank you! Yum!
SatanicPanic
@Tonal (visible) Crow:
This sounds true in theory, but in practice I don’t see how it makes a difference. Silence on what?
Davis X. Machina
@Tonal (visible) Crow:
They don’t really need to know much more than what advertisers already know, and have already got a level of silence that’s perfectly dandy, thank you, all acquired on other people’s nickels.
Why spend good sweat, and good money, doing what 1/4 of the nation’s economy, from Netflix to Nascar to National Prayer Week already does a fine job with?
We care about this stuff. We spend a lot of time on the internet reading and writing about it. Normal people — like the other 17 out of every 20 — not so much. It’s easy to lose track of who ‘us’ really is.
Oh, and Bruins in 5.
schrodinger's cat
@shortstop: You are welcome!
Betty Cracker
@schrodinger’s cat: I think Daisy Mayhem would want me to point out that she’s a GIRL. Not that a girl can’t wear tweed and smoke pipes…
SatanicPanic
@Cassidy: We definitely need to legislate real rules. I just think there is a connection between “I don’t want anyone in my business” and inability to legislate in this country. Probably because libertarians have a huge blind spot for anything that’s not government power. But opposition to actual governance creates, ironically, more government power. I just wonder if privacy as an end unto itself is a bad idea.
schrodinger's cat
@Betty Cracker: Sorry, I stand corrected. Daisy Mayhem, great name, btw, can wear a Chanel tweed jacket while she smokes her pipe.
The Dangerman
Obama is in Santa Monica…
…and there is a mass shooting at Santa Monica City College.
ETA: Obama is a few miles away, but close enough that I’m sure this would impact him in some fashion, especially if SMPD is being pulled from him to the scene.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@SatanicPanic:
Silence on anything that the government wants enough, and that is being obstructed by activists effectively enough. As someone noted in another thread, government wasn’t above spying on, e.g., MLK, then using the resulting evidence of adultery to try to coerce him to water down his activism.
The more government knows, the easier it is for it to repeat that performance in other contexts.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: Ya, ya. Ho hum, nothing we can do about it. Its been around forever. All cool that the government and also major corporations still believe in secrecy and privacy and clutch to it tightly, but average Joe is just supposed to think its quaint. Ya, I need to get with the times. Privacy for the powerful, total exposure for everyone else.
PhoenixRising
@SatanicPanic:
We has a winner.
I was just talking to a new acquaintance at the birthday party for a mutual friend about the losses of the socially networked world. Our youth coming up (we’re both gay from waaay back in the olden days) don’t appreciate how easy we made it for them, by comparison (you’re welcome, and get your pierced tattooed lil’ azzes offa my lawn).
But they don’t get the right to reinvent themselves either. Both of us, kids from small towns who ran away to the Big Gay Metros as teen dropouts, have been able to make wonderful lives for our own families…and the youth today can’t ever have that experience. We were able to be anonymous, and start over, forging new connections with our chosen families.
It’s a post-anonymity world now. That was a blip, between the Carter administration (first WH declaration of gay pride, y’all!) and about 1999, and it was different than any world before or after it, for my people.
Not necessarily sad, or bad, just…gone. And I’m not sure yet how that ties into this world in which there ain’t no such thing as privacy because both Netflix and Eric Holder are looking at everything you did last weekend…but it does.
Socoolsofresh
@LAC: Ya, totally. While things are all good and peaceful, all I have to worry about is my asian porn. Don’t worry about if things in the future may get chaotic, like say due to lack of resources, and the government strikes down with a heavy hand with laws they put into place right now.
I’m sure if I write a well written letter or leave a voice message they will take my concerns into consideration. I feel like more likely they will flag my secret dossier profile, and consider me a potential future threat. Its probably way easier, then you know, governing democratically.
Nerdlinger
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Then we should be fighting for more transparency instead of waging a losing war for privacy. Watch the watchers, spy on the spy, blah blah blah.
Maude
We have the heavy rain before the winds pick up. It will rain tomorrow. Andrea is fading away and that is good.
Flash flooding is possible in some areas.
cleek
we all got flash flood alerts on our cell phones, about an hour ago. everybody in the office giggled at once.
Cassidy
@SatanicPanic: I think part of it goes back to our more puritan outlook. People aren’t concerned about the NSA tracking their computer usage; they’re worried about that one time they got really curious and looked up the donkey show. They’re worried it will come out that their neighbor will know they have predilection for young, athletic blonds and, lo and behold, the neighbor has a daughter who looks like that. People think they’re secrets are really dark secrets when the reality is we’re prettymuch the same.
We’re such a repressed society, it’s ridiculous.
SatanicPanic
@Tonal (visible) Crow: But a modern day MLK has no reasonable expectation of that not being a secret anyway, because a modern-day Andrew Breitbart would have found out about already.
The thing is, we have clear examples in the Arab Spring of people in oppressive government getting up and throwing them off, and I’m pretty sure most of those people thought their governments were snooping on them.
LAC
@Socoolsofresh: Yeah, and that thinking makes it easier to not vote or be active politically. Too much work, dude, and the Man will get you too, am I right?
Tonal (visible) Crow
@Nerdlinger:
How about we fight for more transparency and fight hard to regain privacy? Why should we abandon our western front because we have another enemy on the east?
Lee
Reddit had a post up of an excellent article by David Foster about security. It seems to be a good thing to read today.
link
Cassidy
@Socoolsofresh: Paranoia and hyperbole gets you nowhere with me. If you want to do the Infowars schtick, go ahead, but I’m not gonna feed into your fever dreams.
Betty Cracker
@PhoenixRising:
LMAO!
MomSense
I went to a fancy salon for a hair cut and it is true that everything old is new again. The latest thing in hair is the same cut I had 25 years ago.
Mnemosyne
@jeffreyw:
Gray kitties with green eyes are the BEST! That’s what my late great Boris had, and he was the best, sweetest, most wonderful and loving cat ever. (Note I didn’t say “smart.” But his other qualities were more important.)
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Ah, true. Different issues After looking farther what I found is that HSBC is paying a $1.9 billion fine on a money laundering operation that involved $880 million. Sounds pretty hefty to me.
Mnemosyne
@Tonal (visible) Crow:
Unless you’re willing to also fight private businesses and trust the government to regulate them, you’re fighting a losing battle. There’s no point in banning the government from compiling the same data Google is.
ThresherK
Apropos of nothing but openthread, I’m wondering if anyone knows anyone who’s seen “Now You See Me”.
It’s supposed to be about magicians turning “tricks”, er, “illusions!”.
But the Chaplin/Keaton/Lloyd fan in me asks “When is the camera lying?”
schrodinger's cat
@Mnemosyne: Gubmint is ebil, Corporations is good. Ayn Rand said so.
SatanicPanic
@Cassidy: It should be a relief to their neighbors that they’re fapping to someone like their daughter, not their actual daughter, which I’m sure was what people did in the olden days.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: Boris is an excellent name for a cat. Or a boxer dog, for that matter…
cleek
@MomSense:
my wife keeps trying to get me to agree to paint the rooms in our house medium gray. every time she brings it up, i say “No, I do not want to live in Jerry Seinfeld’s apartment.”
http://suggestsmagic.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/dancing-seinfeld.gif?w=600
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: Well pigeon-holing and name calling has no place with me. You say get used to no privacy, but when I say government cares about its own privacy, all the sudden its info wars craziness? Wow, you walk on a tightrope of what is deemed acceptable discussion. Not surprising really, people here love categorizing and name calling anyone who isn’t on the same page. I guess its easier then debating the points with reason and facts.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@SatanicPanic:
I think you added an extra “not” in there. But your argument is entirely defeatist, and also goes way beyond the evidence. For a modern example, John Edwards’s adultery wasn’t publicly revealed until he’d already lost the 2008 nomination. No, it is not true that the internet knows everything about you. But defeatism on privacy will help ensure that that becomes true.
Sometimes governments get so bad that armed revolution — damn the consequences — is the only alternative (e.g., 1776). I hope we can limit our own governments sufficiently, via the various forms of activism (unimpeded by spying fears), that we never have to consider the alternatives. I hope you’re not recommending letting things get that bad?
MomSense
@cleek:
Oh that made me laugh!!
West of the Rockies
Well, a little late to the thread, but here goes. Don’t know if anyone has pondered my forum name, but it refers to the old Art Bell Coast To Coast show. I find talk of UFO’s and Bigfoot entertaining (though I don’t take it at all seriously). There is a forum devoted to the subject of how that radio program has gone completely into the toilet since Art Bell left. They are a mixed group: I think it’s probably something like 40% conservative, 30% liberal, 20% undecided, 10% utterly uninformed and disinterested.
Anyway, the conservative group seems to be under the impression that suddenly all good libs are supporting Obama and defending these cyber-searches. Convincing them otherwise appears impossible. Of course, convincing them that global warming is real and that Obama is not Kenyan-born is impossible, too. Have any of you BJers noticed a similar dynamic at any other forums you venture into? Do people really think that all progressives are suddenly down with HSA and wire-tapping and such?
schrodinger's cat
@MomSense: You mean the hideous 80s hair is back?
MomSense
@jeffreyw:
That is so cute it might crash the NSA supercomputers!
Tonal (visible) Crow
@West of the Rockies:
Read the comments here. Many people are definitely OK with pretty much any form of government spying, and many with also pretty much any form of corporate spying.
Me? I’m a card-carrying member of the A.C.L.U., and want to roll back the spying.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@Mnemosyne:
Hey guess what? I also want corporate spying rolled back. Who would’a thunk someone might object to all the spying, not just the gubmint part of it?
cleek
@West of the Rockies:
in my travels, i’ve not seen much partisan division on this. there’s no way it can be, really: the politicians of both parties love this stuff.
it really breaks into paranoid/distrustful and resigned/trusting groups, which have almost nothing to do with the liberal v conservative split.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@schrodinger’s cat:
Uh, no. Spying is evil, whether done by government or corporations.
Cassidy
@West of the Rockies: You have to check out Monster Talk. It’s a podcast about cryptozoology.
@Tonal (visible) Crow: You continuously and deliberately confuse acceptance and condoning. Well, to be fair, you deliberately confuse anything that doesn’t fit in your “Obama is worse than Bush” narrative.
@Socoolsofresh: /eyeroll, yes woe is you you blog martyr, you.
cleek
FWIW, Google says No. Fuck No. to the rumor that the govt has access to their servers.
ranchandsyrup
Doing some potty training and trying to get some work done today. We put up a scorecard to mark how many times she’s gone on the floor (5) and how many in the potty (2). She’s some sort of camel or something. I’m about to cut her off from liquids permanently.
eemom
hmm, I wonder if this NSA thing is hiring. Seems like it could use a lawyer or two.
I hate my current job so bad I would work for the Antichrist.
schrodinger's cat
@Tonal (visible) Crow: I agree with you in principle. But bitching about it on blogs accomplishes nothing.
Redshirt
@Tonal (visible) Crow: I’ve got the ACLU card as well. We can certainly fight for greater privacy rights, but there’s no going back to the pre-digital world. Your phone calls will all be recorded, somewhere. So too all your browsing, all your credit card purchases, every bank action, your grocery cart, your power usage, etc. As well as everytime you go into a public space you will be recorded.
There’s no avoiding this. We can fight for access rights, encryption issues, etc. But we’ll never be anonymous again – that is if you remain in society. Head for the hills and cut all wires if you want privacy like in the old days.
Villago Delenda Est
@Paula:
Actually, it does matter that assorted right wingers created this conversation, because the conversation is a red herring.
It’s that usurper in the White House that is the REAL problem. If there were a Rethug in there, anyone broaching this issue would be committing high treason.
Redshirt
@West of the Rockies: Do you know the show “Survivorman”, with Les Stroud? He was on Joe Rogan’s podcast and he’s got some great stories of being in the middle of nowhere and hearing… something. He’s not saying it was Bigfoot, but it was something weird. Check it out here.
SatanicPanic
@Tonal (visible) Crow: When it came out about John Edwards is neither here nor there. The point is that he was a fool for thinking it wouldn’t.
I’m not being a defeatist, that would imply that I actually think widespread privacy is a good thing, and I’m not convinced that it is. Privacy rights is starting to sound suspiciously like 2nd Amendment rights in my ears, and as far as keeping governments in check, I don’t buy that 2nd Amendment rights do much of anything either.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: There you go. So I guess you don’t believe the government is concerned about its own secrecy, it’s own privacy then. That’s just info wars paranoia.
Government and private corporations care about their privacy, because guess what? Privacy is important, its precious! They know that! But to you, individuals are supposed to believe that its quaint.
NickT
@Socoolsofresh:
Shouldn’t you be denouncing the begriming of society by blue bicycles, Ms Rabinowitz?
Tonal (visible) Crow
@Cassidy:
1. Many here clearly condone high levels of governmental and corporate spying. 2. Accepting evil — when a simple, relatively safe alternative exists to contest it — is close to condoning evil.
Aw, I hurt yer feelings by objecting to spying that I’ve objected to since I first became aware of its possibility, sometime around, er, Watergate. Well, to be fair, yer feelings get hurt by anything that doesn’t fit your “Everyone who objects to an Obama policy is persecuting him because they’re racist ratfucking Republicans” narrative. But fap on.
Trollhattan
In case there remained any doubt, Whole Foods: still dicks.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@SatanicPanic:
What’s next? That the 1st Amendment doesn’t do much of anything either?
Nerdlinger
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Between CCD cameras, online and biometric tracking, we’re already living in a post-privacy society. No, I don’t like being spied upon, but I also happen to live in the real world. Yes, you can selectively choose battles (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/01/09/court-rejecting-texas-students-opposition-to-rfid-tracker-not-as-outrageous-as-it-seems/) to fight, but broad popular awareness does infinitely more to handicap the powers that be than some selective legislative language that’s sure to be surmounted with newer tools and technologies.
Cassidy
@Socoolsofresh: I think you’re commenting on a blog, using the internet and some sort of social media, and probably have a smartphone or tablet of some sort. I’m also guessing you use google and visit sites with targeted ads. If you’re discovering that you’re very concerned about your privacy anytime in the last few years, I’m sorry, but you’re naive. This is not new. This is not special. This is what intelligence services and corporations do; they collect data and they manipulate that data to reach their own ends.
Maude
@ranchandsyrup:
She’s doing well. It’s hard to get the hang of it.
Good on you for the patience.
When she’s old enough to drink, she’ll pee on the floor then too.
Cheery, huh?
Cassidy
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Evil? Really? /eyeroll
Meh. Someone like you isn’t really capable of hurting my feelings. But you are a ratfucker.
Tonal (visible) Crow
@schrodinger’s cat:
That’s why I don’t just bitch about it on blogs. I call and write my politicians — and sometimes even visit them in person. I strongly support organizations that litigate and lobby. I sometimes (but not often enough, admittedly) march in the streets. You?
Calouste
@eemom:
You’re welcome, I’ll send you an application form. Not a regular church goer, I hope? We don’t have vacancies in that department.
SatanicPanic
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Of course the 1st does. The 25th, however, does not. What does that have to do with anything?
Trollhattan
Busy day. 2nd Amendment(pbuh) rights being exercised at Santa Monica College.
In other California crime news, Richard Ramirez [no connection to the above] has croaked. I hope some of his victims get to “have a word.”
Cassidy
@eemom: The NSA, and CIA for that matter, are always hiring. They don’t have to put their open positions on USAJobs. You have to go to them directly, fill out an application, and if they have need of your particular skills, they’ll contact you. The application stays in their system for 90 days, IIRC, and then it gets dumped if their is no action on it.
ranchandsyrup
@Maude: Maude, that is hilarious ’cause it’s going to be true. Thanks, I needed a laugh.
Also, one of our little dogs puked in the bed last night. Apparently I liked it as I rolled around in it. Bad day for bodily fluids in my house.
SatanicPanic
@Cassidy: Just pick up your phone, dial a random number and shout I WANNA WORK FOR THE NSA! They’ll get the message.
Raven
Back from Savannah, ruined my MacBook Pro Tuesday, got a speeding ticket going down there dropped my iPad and cracked the screen Wednesday, Andrea blew in and screwed up any outdoor fun. White people problems rule!
schrodinger's cat
@Cassidy: I should check out their Wanted pg. I has math skillz and coding skillz, plus I ar stealthy.
ETA: Kitteh for hire, can be dead and alive at the same time.
Nerdlinger
@Raven: No AppleCare?
lamh35
Ok, seriously, is MLK the ONLY example people have of the government spying on it’s citzens and trying to use it against them?
Cause it seems to me, the invoking of surveillance on MLK seems to be a deliberate and IDK, it just rubs me the wrong way.
Not sure why, but it does.
schrodinger's cat
@lamh35: Like College Republicans invoking that MLK was a Republican?
Trollhattan
I’d rather work for MI6. Because, accents. And they must have a pub in the building, also, too.
Why don’t our Yankee office buildings have pubs? Seems so civilized.
Poopyman
@eemom: Mitt Romney is holding on line 2.
schrodinger's cat
@Trollhattan: Me lubs British accents. I just finished seeing both the Original Tinker Tailor and Smiley’s People recently. Great drama, great acting.
Poopyman
@Cassidy: Yeah,but since she’s in NoVA she should stick with the CIA to avoid a commute from hell.
And there’s always (Redacted) Agency #3.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: Ah I see, accept and submit. This is how its been, and how it will always be. The internet used to be known for its ability of anonymity, some saw it as a problem. Obviously those who did solved that problem and now you want us to accept that its always been like this, and there is no solution.
Redshirt
@SatanicPanic: They already know.
schrodinger's cat
@Redshirt: They can read minds. Please to wear tinfoil hats.
Redshirt
@schrodinger’s cat: No joking – wait till there’s a “mental internet” and the government can literally wiretap your brain.
Orwell has a jealous.
Cassidy
@Socoolsofresh: Blah, blah, blah…not interested in the condescending libertarian schtick. It was boring many years ago.
Raven
@Nerdlinger: No coverage on stupidity.
lamh35
@schrodinger’s cat: yeah that did rub me the wrong way too.
Like I said, MLK wasn’t the only one right, but damned if I haven’t seen MLK surveillance invoked by people for the last 48hrs. I mean can I get another example please.
Just saying
The Dangerman
Obama going back to LAX by motorcade, not helicopter … early afternoon on a Friday with Santa Monica having multiple shooting locations … um, former neighbors on the Westside, you may want to stay home.
ETA: And isn’t tomorrow graduation at UCLA? Oh, yeah, avoid the Westside.
Mandalay
@cleek:
That’s meaningless, and is not how large volumes of electronic data are typically exchanged anyway. Google pushes its data to a government server, then blusters that THE GOVERNMENT CAN’T ACCESS OUR SERVERS!!! Well so what?
Of course the government is not taking any data from Google. It doesn’t need to because Google is spoon-feeding the data to the government. Google’s statement is full of strawman assertions of what it is not doing, but says nothing about what it is doing.
It’s all smoke and mirrors.
Cassidy
@Poopyman: True, but the NSA people were much nicer even when they rejected my application.
eemom
@SatanicPanic:
lolz.
My Evil cred is pretty solid. I wonder if they still ask if one has ever “inhaled” though.
@Poopyman:
Indeed, I pass right by that place on my way to my current inferno.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: Right, exactly! Your mind was made up a long time ago. You heard it and then decided to close your thinking like a vault. Give it some dismissive name, and trot that out instead. Get with the program. So over it. Obviously you are. No privacy is the new normal. Otherwise you must be some libertarian crank.
Cassidy
@Mandalay:
Actually, that’s what a lot of us have been saying. You all aren’t upset at the loss of privacy or liberty or freedom or whatever. You’re mad that the illusion has been lost. Your privacy was nothing more than an illusion. There are 16 organizations that make up the intelligence community. I guarantee there are more than that with a lot more loose regulation. From the wiki, there are 1,271 government organizations and 1,931 private companies in 10,000 locations in the United States that are working on counterterrorism, homeland security, and intelligence. How does anyone think that this hasn’t been going on, in some form, for a very long time?
ETA: I’ve said it in other threads, but if you all are worried about a boogeyman, it ain’t the NSA.
Tone in DC
Speaking of judges…
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/07/2121211/federal-judge-sends-menacing-email-to-attorney-you-wont-like-me-when-im-angry/?mobile=nc
Mandalay
@Trollhattan:
Hmmm….I notice that any mention of Miss Moneypenny is conspicuous in its absence in your carefully crafted statement.
Cassidy
@Socoolsofresh: Are you planning on sticking around? I mean, if you are, I’ll just pie you; I ain’t got a lot of time for conspiracy theory shit. If you’re just trotting through here as a phase or manic episode or something, though, I won’t expend the energy.
Mnemosyne
@Tonal (visible) Crow:
If you don’t trust the government, and you don’t trust private business, who do you picture enforcing the rules against spying?
I’m all in favor of at a minimum forcing both private and public entities that gather this information to protect it better and limit what they can do with it (again, I think Europe has a very good model), but who do you picture enforcing the rules if not the government?
Raven
@Cassidy: It’s the same asshole with a different handle.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne:
This is a good question.
Socoolsofresh
@Cassidy: I’ve been here for a while. What I used to admire is that this websites founder left his old party affiliation and did a re-evaluation of what he stood for. It was refreshing to see someone who thought for themselves, was independent. Little did I know is all that ended up happening was that he just started cheerleading for a different team. And then just got some Democratic partisan authoritarians like you to back him up. So ya, keep pieing me with your amazing conventional wisdom.
MomSense
@schrodinger’s cat:
I resemble that remark! Sadly I could never get the big hair look–not enough product in the world!
Mandalay
@Cassidy:
Well I am, but my primary concern is that of government overreach and abuse of power through secrecy and backdoor legislation..
It’s one thing to brag that you knew about this all along, but the government has always played the “National Security” card, so as a practical matter nobody could do anything about it.
About a month ago Obama lectured us on winding down the government’s war on terror, yet the evidence suggests that he has been ramping it up. Right now Obama is meeting with China, no longer able to lecture them about electronic spying.
The shit is hitting the fan. Or in the words of Rev. Wright, America’s chickens are coming home to roost.
schrodinger's cat
@MomSense: My hair gets frizzy in humidity, no product needed.
LAC
@Tonal (visible) Crow: Oh, thank you for looking down on us from the perch on Mt. Perfection. The hoi polloi salutes you. I especially loved your 2001 piece “Why I will fight with every fiber of my being to defeat the Patriot Act” And your 2004 piece “Why I will fight with every fiber of my being to defeat Bush” and your 2010 post “Why I will fight with every fiber of my being to elect members of congress who will help repeal the Patriot Act”
PhoenixRising
@ranchandsyrup: 5 on the target, 2 misfires, ain’t a bad day. It’s a good start.
We potty trained during March Madness, because the moms were planning to sit in front of ESPN for both weekend days, two weekends in a row. By Easter, we had a winner and champion.
Also, are you using the cotton-wad-crotch old-fashioned training pants? Highly rec’d. Nothing post-plastic-era seems to work to communicate the connection, ‘open sphincter, feel yucky’, because it doesn’t feel yucky.
West of the Rockies
@Redshirt: Hey, Redshirt ~ I’ve encountered that Les Stroud material before — it is interesting. Honestly, I think a lot of the UFO, ghosts, etc., stuff is entertaining. I feel a bit like a 13-year-old again sitting under the stars in the summer when I hear such stories. Can’t say I give them much credence, but they are intriguing. That TV show Monster Quest was sort of fun to watch but so silly as well. It pretty much always ended along the lines of, “Scientists cannot say for sure what this witness saw that night in the forest eleven years ago.” (As if scientists are actually spending a lot of time pondering the guy’s “encounter” anyway!)
Chyron HR
@Mandalay:
“Lectured” us. It’s good that you can find a way to object when Obama says things that you would otherwise be obliged to agree with.
Mandalay
@lamh35:
There are literally thousands apart from MLK. Here’s a few: John Lennon…Lenny Bruce….Daniel Ellsberg…Jim Morrison…Thurgood Marshall…
Looking at that list, I view it as a badge of honor.
Mnemosyne
@PhoenixRising:
I’ve always kind of assumed that was part of the problem with modern diapers — if the toddler never feels wet or uncomfortable, how do they learn to associate the urge to go with the results (as it were)?
WereBear
@ranchandsyrup: I hope you are talking about a puppy.
If so, put her on a leash and be alert to her sniffing around for someplace to go. When she’s on a leash attached to you, it’s easy to discover these clues. Then, when they appear, whisk her outside, and go nuts when she piddles there.
I’ve trained dogs in 2-3 days this way.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Cassidy:
FTFY. :)
@Raven:
We need to make that simple, something like SA:DH.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: They do need to be made uncomfortable. That’s where parenting comes in. You point and laugh every time there’s a load in their diaper.
I’m kidding! I wish I had good potty training advice, but our son just magically figured it out one day without much effort on our part.
Amir Khalid
@Mandalay:
Not to nitpick, but John Lennon wasn’t an American citizen.
muddy
@Mnemosyne: I had the best kid ever. He was about 1-1/2, going to daycare, and came home one day saying that he was going to use the potty like a big boy. I said Great, but did not have much expectation. Well, he just did it. “By his all” as he used to say. I hadn’t even brought it up yet. I bless him and gloat whenever the topic comes up.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Chyron HR:
I heard that Obama not only lectured us but he also shook a pointed finger at us! I fainted when I heard this and missed the couch, injuring myself.
Good thing for Obamacare!
Mandalay
@Amir Khalid: Fair enough. I was really picking people who were very well known to show that it wasn’t just MLK being surveilled, but point taken.
My larger point is that the authorities will go after anyone who threatens the status quo, and that is true in any country in varying degrees.
lojasmo
@Tonal (visible) Crow:
Okay, it’s like a $2 fine if you make $30 per year. The point is still valid.
Trollhattan
@Mandalay:
That was Malcom X. (Obummer’s real father? You decide.)
Trollhattan
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Did he pick that up from Jan Brewer?
MomSense
@schrodinger’s cat: Humidity gives me the cat caught in the rain look- just pitiful.
Redshirt
@West of the Rockies: I’m a skeptic, and I don’t follow any of the “hunting Bigfoot” or “Ancient Alien” crap on TV, but it wouldn’t shock me if there was an undiscovered primate living in the deep woods of Canada/America/Russia, and this primate is the source of all Bigfoot myths.
Aliens, on the other hand? Hasn’t happened.
NickT
@Redshirt:
Ah, you mean a moderate Republican.
Redshirt
@NickT: Certainly not. They were declared extinct in 2010, sadly.
Cassidy
@Socoolsofresh: I’m more than authoritarian….I’ve already reported you comrade! Gasp!
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Trollhattan:
I hope not, that would mean it’s contagious!!
burnspbesq
@? Martin:
Oooh, smokin’ hot Executive-on-Judiciary action!