Random sports question: who was the last great center to come into the NBA (I realize Duncan is still playing but he entered the league years ago)? Yao Ming? How come there aren’t any anymore?
Update. Per the comments, I guess the answer is Dwight Howard. I don’t think of him as having enough of a post game to be a great center (he mostly gets by on pure strength) but he has scored a lot of points some seasons.
Kevin
Love him or hate him, Dwight Howard. At his prime, pre injury and pre douche, he was better than Yao.
PsiFighter37
I would venture to say Dwight Howard, but he’s got to get fully healthy again before he gets that title. That said, definitely was more known for his defense than his offensive proficiency. The last big dominant offensive centers came into the league in the 90s…the NBA is a much smaller and faster league now.
BGinCHI
The center in “The White Shadow” was pretty good.
quannlace
Ooh, we’re talking about something besides Hollandaise. Unfortunately, I know bupkis about sports.
Kevin
Dwight did lead his team to the finals, and he rebounds and plays great D (well, played until his back injury, he was a monster. If his health gets better and he gets back to that level, he is one of the 5 best players in the league…and i’d still not want his whining personality on my team…and i root for the Raptors…)
Hill Dweller
Howard is a good rebounder and defensive player, but he has zero offensive skills.
Duncan is a PF.
Marc Gasol is good, but he isn’t a dominant offensive player.
Davebo
Yaou Ming doesn’t qualify as a great center IMO and I’m a Rockets fan.
At 17 points per game average I don’t think Howard does either.
Would we have to go all the way back to Olajuwon?
schrodinger's cat
My knowledge about basketball is pretty sketchy. Much like Kinsley’s grasp of economics. I can has basketball column in TNR plz?
catclub
How many years does it take to have: Wilt, Bill Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Bill Walton?
Second tier: Ewing, Hakeem.
Would Oden have been the latest, but his knees failed first?
Bogut could be pretty impressive if healthy.
Hibbert is no slouch. Hibbert with Kobe, rather than Hibbert with Paul George, could be pretty dangerous.
Marc Gasol, likewise.
DougJ
@Davebo:
Ming scored 26 points a game one season, almost all in the low post. That’s a great center season at least.
DougJ
@catclub:
Hakeem is first tier, not second, otherwise I agree with your ranking.
catclub
As a side thread, is it the case that less than dominant centers get laughed at the most?
Kurt Rambis springs to mind.
Hill Dweller
@catclub: I’d switch Hakeem and Walton on your tiers. Hakeem was the most skilled offensive center in NBA history, IMO. Injuries prevented Walton from ever reaching his potential.
catclub
@DougJ: Not problem. I really know very little about 90’s era basketball. So I have little first hand knowledge of Hakeem.
Kevin
@Davebo:
No, Shaq came after Hakeem. And he was more dominant.
I don’t think Howards PPG is enough to disqualify him as a great center. His defensive contributions were so great to his team that it made up for it.
DougJ
@Hill Dweller:
Hakeem was a great defender too.
Kevin
Hakeem was great all around. Too bad he came to my Raptors when he was a shell of his former self.
And he got a bit lucky. Jordan doesn’t play baseball, I don’t think Hakeem gets a title. That helps his stature quite a bit. At the very least, you never hear Houston fans lamenting drafting him over Jordan the way Portland fans do. That’s what two titles will do for you.
John Walters
The modern NBA game is extremely physically demanding. (See all the injuries in the playoffs this year.) I think we’ve reached the limits of what a very tall human body can take without breaking down. (See Yao Ming, Greg Oden, as well as Bogut and even Dwight Howard.) Almost every big man suffers from plantar fasciitis or back trouble sooner or later.
Goblue72
Iron Mike Webster.
Oh wait, wrong sport.
Mark S.
The centers I grew up watching were Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, and David Robinson. Dwight Howard is nowhere near as good as any of those guys were.
Corner Stone
@catclub:
Hakeem second tier?? You are out of your blipping mind.
PsiFighter37
I should elaborate that while Howard scores points, he’s very much a pick-and-roll kind of finisher. He’s not going to post up and kick your ass like Ewing, Hakeem, or the Admiral would back in the day.
Just a different game now. I would say Yao and Tim Duncan were the last true centers who were really good. Pau Gasol was at a pretty elite level a few years ago, but he didn’t have the physicality to punish people in the paint like the older guys did.
Corner Stone
@Mark S.: Hakeem destroyed both Shaq and David Robinson in the span of one season. Just total domination.
Anyone who’s saying Hakeem wasn’t first tier or dominant never watched him play.
They listed him at 7′ but he was 6’10” with the footwork of a soccer goalie. Just brilliant low post.
Who did Dwight go to for lessons when he wanted to get better and try to develop some semblance of offense? No, not Hitler.
Kevin
@Mark S.:
I’d say Dwight healthy was better than Robinson and Ewing for sure. Nostalgia colours our views, but Dwight was really damn good, and if the last two seasons were due to his bad back/shoulder (very likely), and he comes back healthy, he makes any team a contender.
jon
With the three-point shot, the value of a center has diminished greatly. Add the fact that anyone is allowed to travel as long as a dunk is involved, and suddenly the big guys in the middle are just going to get fouls called against them. The game has changed, for better and worse.
Hill Dweller
@Kevin:
No way.
John S.
@catclub:
Ewing second tier? You’re out of your gourd. He was part of a group of the last great centers the NBA has seen. Nobody even comes close to the big men from the late 70s to the early 90s.
Haydnseek
@catclub: Laugh all you want. It’s Rambis with the rings. Oh, and FYI. Rambis wasn’t a center. Other than that, great post!
John PM
Bill Wennington and Luc Longly!
catclub
@Haydnseek: ” Rambis wasn’t a center.”
That is how un-dominant a center he was!
Haydnseek
@catclub: LOL! Got me!
Tbone
Shaq
Console
The only guy that could ever hope to be as dominant as Shaq is Dwight Howard. But there is still good talent out there. Brook Lopez, Andrew Bynum.
Really, all the tall offensive power house “centers” play PF. Garnett, Nowitzki, Pau Gasol. Each of those dudes are 7 feet tall.
khead
@jon:
My judgement may be clouded by my career as a playground and rec league chucker but I agree with this. Not as much need for a big man with post moves and an ability to play with their back to the basket.
Tokyokie
@jon: I agree with that sentiment. Also, probably as a result of those developments, a lot of the more agile big men these days seem to be more concerned with their outside games than excelling down low in the scrum, with Dirk Nowitzski being the most prominent example.
James E. Powell
@John S.:
Ewing’s rep suffers because he didn’t win an NBA championship and because there are a lot of people who never saw him play
Haydnseek
@Console: Andrew Bynum? Really? I’ve seen fucking statues that were superior to Bynum, but then, they had healthier knees, not to mention a far superior attitude and will to win. He was a bust with the Lakers and now the Sixers are wondering what came over them when they made a deal for this stiff…..
Lurking Canadian
@catclub: Rambis could have put up Kareem’s numbers and we still would have laughed at him. That dude’s glasses were fugly.
Lurking Canadian
@jon: It is interesting that you say this. Back when Shaq was stomping everything into the ground, I remember reading something (Sports Illustrated, or somewhere like that) lamenting that now the big men had completely taken over the game and we’d never again see the skill and finesse of Johnson, Jordan and Bird.
I predict that it’ll come back around. Kobe will get old, LeBron will start having trouble with his knees and some Brobdignagian kid will show up and start eating everybody’s lunch. Probably at fucking Duke.
Haydnseek
@Lurking Canadian: Nah, he was just ahead of his time. See every hipster lately….
trollhattan
@DougJ:
Was lucky enough to watch the Rockets and Yao from floor level, and he may be the most impressively large and athletic human I’ve ever seen. He was relatively healthy at the time and showed some athletic moves, as well as being a real defensive force.
Because it was during the Shaq era I don’t think he ever got his due and of course, injuries took their toll. I never saw Shaq (tickets for the hated Lakers being unpossible during that era) so can’t compare the two; only know that Yao is a human sequoia even in a forest of giant men.
If he weren’t such a headcase, DeMarcus Cousins would be an all-star scoring center, although not a dominant defender (he’s a pretty small center). Alas, I don’t know if there’s a coach who can reel him in to embrace his potential.
Gin & Tonic
@James E. Powell: I saw Patrick play, and I’m a Knickerbockers fan from way way back, but I’m OK with him in the second tier compared to the others listed. But then again, I’m old, and first tier to me contains three guys only.
Haydnseek
@trollhattan: As I remember, Yao also had a nice medium-range jumper. You had to defend him all over the floor. I’m no Houston fan, but I enjoyed watching him early in his career.
Haydnseek
@Gin & Tonic: Don’t tell me, let me guess. Wilt, Bill Russell, and Kareem. That’s my top tier, but then I’m old as well……
Montysano
@Corner Stone:
Absolutely. No other big man had his speed, grace and agility.
Here’s a related question: how come no one uses the hook shot anymore? In the hands of someone like Abdul-Jabbar, it’s impossible to defend. He made a career out of it.
Keith G
Watching Olajuwon up close for a few seasons (good friend with corporate tickets) was a great thrill. In the highlight “reel” linked below, I was at the Summit for play #10. His speed at making that play blew. my. mind. One of the best period. Certainly the last great one. Note his quickness on his characteristic spin move, as well as immaculate timing on blocks
Hakeem highlights
Corner Stone
@trollhattan:
Shaq made Yao look like a willow tree in the wind. Shaq absolutely crushed Yao, mainly because Yao had no ass to him (underweight), and the refs liked it that way.
Corner Stone
@Keith G: I think people don’t get how freakishly fast Hakeem was. Not “for his size” but just straight ass fast/quick.
The Dream Shake and the drop step fallaway were both “invented/perfected” by Hakeem.
Completely unstoppable inside 18 feet except for the hack attacks coaches were forced to deploy.
Lurking Canadian
OT but I need help. I accidentally pressed the button to turn off “Mobile Theme” on my iPhone. Is there a way to get it back?
Corner Stone
@Keith G: Damn. Those #2 and #1 highlights are just jaw dropping.
Allah be praised!
p.a.
@Goblue72: are you flirting with Cole?
mr.peabody
Shaq was the best most recently. Dikembe Mutombo was a a great defensive center.
PsiFighter37
@Corner Stone: I don’t think there are any big men who could pull those off.
Not only that, but those last 2 are on Ewing and Robinson…imagine if he played against today’s center. I think he’d be putting up some disgusting paint moves against the undersized centers that play today.
Also, too, that highlight where he blocks the ball and knocks it into the backcourt…awesome.
Keith G
@Corner Stone: I know it sounds like a hack (and homer to boot), but watching Hakeem for all those years spoiled me for other tall men. More often than not, he was the best all around athlete on the floor. No one since can match the size of his tool box.
gene108
If you’re calling Tim Duncan a center, I’d have to say Kevin Love is pretty damn impressive.
EDIT: When healthy of course.
trollhattan
@Keith G:
I remember somebody asking Walton around the time Hakeem was coming into the league who he’d build a team around, and he named Olajuwon without hesitation. Great centers know what it takes.
jesse helms' ghost
Hank Finkel, Greg Kite, Rick Robey.
p.a.
Hank Finkel, Greg Kite, Rick Robey. “The Jesse Helms guide to great NBA centers.”
trollhattan
BTW, I still hold Russell (or Morgan Freeman, as his buddy Stephanopoulos likes to call
him) personally responsible for Pervis Ellison. Darn you to heck, Bill!
Bonnie
The last truly great center in the NBA is Kareem Abdul Jabbar. No one does a sky hook any more.
Ailuridae
The most recent great center to come into the NBA is Andre Drummond.
He was laughably misused last year but he’s absolutely a great player
jake the snake
Great centers come and go. Usually there are only one or two in the league at a time.
Sometimes there is a gap between the great centers.
dp
@Hill Dweller: This is correct.
GR
For me, it’s Shaq if we are looking at all-time-great caliber, otherwise Dwight Howard if we just mean dominant. I agree with others that this is largely a result of guys like Duncan and Pao playing the 4 instead of the 5.
eddie blake
the rule changes that they’ve slowly brought into effect, starting with the hand-checking rule in 95, have made the game a slasher-shooter-chucker game and not a boxing-out-physical grind… it will be very hard for anyone to play with the intensity of a shaq or a ewing or a chamberlain without getting flagrant twos called every time they post up.
billB
As was said above, the best bigs want to play PF now. Look at our Blazer baby-stud, LaMarshmellow Aldredge here in Portland. The man has the size and bulk of a center, good footwork, and for a brief spell he chose to go inside and scored like h^ll. But he is sooo pampered and wants to hang out in the corner like a ?SF. As many of us say in PDX, ‘Man Up, LA’.
DLew On Roids
@John Walters: Or, similarly, we’ve reached a point where being seven feet tall isn’t enough on its own to dominate any more. There are lots of 6′ 8″ athletes now who can shove around and outrun a 7′ 1″ stiff who’s only playing because of his height (one recent study found that probably about 1/6 of 7′ tall American men of NBA age play pro basketball).