Manning Update and Open Thread

There was a hearing last week in the pending Court-Martial of PFC Bradley Manning.  I was going to write it up, but then…well.

There were two developments that were interesting.  The main take-aways from the hearing are that Judge Lind (COL, JA) has instructed the Trial Counsel that they will have to prove that PFC Manning “knowingly and with specific intent that the Taliban and/or Al Quaeda receive the documents” he stole and passed to Wikileaks in order to get a conviction on the specification of Aiding the Enemy (UCMJ Art. 104) and not merely that he knew or should have known that Taliban or AQ would avail themselves of the documents after Wikileaks presumably posted them.  This is a higher standard than the TC originally proposed, but TC did not object to this instruction.  The second development from the hearing was that Trial Counsel sought and received permission from the Judge to call a member of SEAL Team 6 who took part in the Bin Laden compound raid to testify for the government during the findings phase (when guilt or non-guilt is determined.)

Presumably, he will testify that documents that originated with Manning’s activities were found in the compound.  I’m not sure what that accomplishes given the ruling above, but that’s what happened in the hearing.  IANAL, so your guess is as good as mine.

Additionally, the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces (CAAF), the highest military appeals court, above the service courts but below the SCOTUS, has ruled in Center for Constitutional Rights, et al v US and Lind.  This suit concerns a writ of Mandamus that CCR, Wikileaks, Jeremy Scahill, and others were seeking to compel Judge Lind and the US to provide daily trial transcripts and verbatim transcripts of MRE 802 conferences.  MRE 802 concerns conferences that are taken in judicial chambers or sidebars.  The appellants sought to compel the government and the Judge to provide these records as well as reserve seats in the gallery to their representatives.  The Army Court of Criminal Appeals originally sided with the government and Judge Lind and turned down this writ on the grounds that Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) requests have served adequately in the past for news agencies and others seeking records of military courts-martial and there was no reason to change that now.  This policy/process differs significantly from federal civil courts, apparently.  There were also some grounds for turning down the request on military logistical grounds that are not really relevant but basically come down to who’s going to pay for the real time transcription and so on.  The accused (PFC Manning) and his counsel were invited by CAAF to submit a brief on this issue, but declined.  The CAAF found that since their jurisdiction was limited to appeals after ACCA would theoretically hear appeals, that did not give them enough jurisdiction to issue a writ in the case.  The majority specifically noted the fact that the accused did not join CCR, et al in the case and this weighed against them.

You can read their ruling here.

Also, NRA lobbying makes it a LOT harder to catch terrorists.  This is something of which the NRA is well aware.  UPDATE: Mistermix already beat me to it.

Game update 2.0, “Scum and Villainy” is out for Star Wars: The Old Republic.  I’ll be playing that tonight as soon as I get off shift babysitting server upgrades.

Open thread

108 replies
  1. 1
    lojasmo says:

    Chained CPI totally happened, right?

  2. 2
    Redshirt says:

    Can I revive bird watch chat?

  3. 3
    Cacti says:

    Well, now that the bodies are cold, back to the important stuff.

    Bradley “Mumia” Manning, Dr0n3z, and chained CPI.

  4. 4
    Roger Moore says:

    Also, NRA lobbying makes it a LOT harder to catch terrorists. This is something of which the NRA is well aware.

    Yes. They’re just lobbying for their members.

  5. 5
    shortstop says:

    Did you see mistermix’s post on taggants yesterday?

  6. 6
    cyntax says:

    Ugh MRE 802; isn’t that the one with ham loaf as the entree? Cruel and unusual indeed.

  7. 7
    Soonergrunt says:

    @shortstop: No. I did not.
    Updated story with link.

  8. 8
    Cacti says:

    Speaking of the NRA…

    Adolphus Busch IV, from the Anheuser-Busch family, has resigned from the NRA board of directors.

  9. 9
    Chris says:

    Also, NRA lobbying makes it a LOT harder to catch terrorists. This is something of which the NRA is well aware.

    I assume that it’s a feature, not a bug, as far as the right wing militia part of the spectrum are concerned.

    Also, I’ve practically never played a video game in my life, but I’m enough of a Star Wars nerd to have heard a little bit about the video games set in the Old Republic era. So… PLEASE tell me this is one of those games with HK-47? That guy has the best Memorable Quotes page in all of Wookieepedia.

  10. 10
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Cacti: I’ll be damned. That’s a first in a long time. Still not gonna drink his beer.

    I looked at the NRA board a while back, and the only names I recognize/remember aside from a few retired congresscritters (Boren the Younger, IIRC) were Tom Selleck, Nugent and Larry Craig.

  11. 11
    Redshirt says:

    No?

    Are there social structures in chickadee populations?

  12. 12
    MikeJ says:

    Which server do you play swtor on? I have a baby character on Harbinger, nothing near the level for the new content.

  13. 13
    Corner Stone says:

    Wow. This thread has really set the tone with truly awesome comments by lojasmo and Cacti.
    So happy to have these stalwart pioneers of ethics and rule of law to be driving the debate.

  14. 14
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ha, that was my sentiment exactly – still won’t touch a Bud unless I had no other choice and was very thirsty for the drink.

    Also, too, HuffPo screwed up; he wasn’t a director.

    I should also note that in nearly every article NYT puts out, there’s always a correction at the end. I think they hire really fucking lazy people to write articles now, and they can’t even get basic facts right…and they wonder why we don’t respect them.

    PF37 +a little more wine than expected, so toning it down with a protein shake now

  15. 15
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    Boy Argentine football fans can be really rough.

  16. 16
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Chris: He makes an appearance, but only on a heroic mission at level 50. His “decedent,” HK-51, is available as a companion character after you find all the parts, which I have not done yet.

  17. 17
    MikeJ says:

    @Chris:

    PLEASE tell me this is one of those games with HK-47?

    IIRC, you can get him as a companion but it’s an endgame thing and very difficult. But as I mentioned above, I’m not at the endgame so I could be wrong.

  18. 18
    Soonergrunt says:

    @MikeJ: The Shadowlands.
    email me and I’ll give you character names and levels offline.

  19. 19
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Mr Stagger Lee: That’s what happens when God shows up late to his handball game.

  20. 20
    Chris says:

    @Soonergrunt:
    @MikeJ:

    Ah well, better than nothing.

  21. 21
    lojasmo says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Your totes intellectually stimulating addition to the thread is noted…ass.

    Okay…on topic. I hope Manning gets life in prison.

    Second edit: Corner Stone: My point is your ONLY contribution to the board is that of trolling little bitch.

    Must suck to be you, I’d imagine.

  22. 22
    Walker says:

    @MikeJ:

    I have a baby character on Harbinger, nothing near the level for the new content.

    <reaper>This hurts you.</reaper>

  23. 23
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @PsiFighter37: I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m not contributing to the Busch family fortunes through some micro-brewery I didn’t know they’ve snapped up.

  24. 24
    Corner Stone says:

    @lojasmo: As opposed to your brilliant insight about C-CPI in a thread about PFC Manning?
    You’ve threatened to kill your coworkers and yet here you are trying to misdirect a thread about PFC Manning with something about C-CPI?
    Go fuck yourself psycho.

  25. 25
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: As long as you’re not buying Shock Top or Blue Moon (which is owned by Coors), you should be straight.

  26. 26
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @lojasmo: @Corner Stone: Can’t we all get along? Or at least get a little drunk? Why the fuck are you guys getting all hot and bothered at each other…

  27. 27
    ruemara says:

    Interesting with regard to the request for clear specific intent. That’s good to hear. I don’t like the broadness of the original charge. That being said, I still think leaking documents is wrong, particularly when I don’t believe they’ve established some clear whistleblower intent. Thanks for the update.

  28. 28
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    Given the instruction on the Aiding the Enemy charges, I don’t think he will be convicted on them.

  29. 29
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    According to this, the guy in the gruesome picture with his legs blown off being pushed in a wheelchair, stared right into the guy’s eyes who put the bomb down that blew off his legs. The first thing he asked for when he woke up was pen and paper. He wrote: “bag, saw the guy, looked right at me.”

  30. 30
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Corner Stone: It’s an open thread, CS.

  31. 31
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @ruemara: Manning has already pleaded guilty to some of the lesser charges. These aiding the enemy charges have always seemed to me to be a real reach on the prosecution’s part.

  32. 32
    Corner Stone says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Awesome point amigo. Awesomely right on in accuracy. Just awesome in its sheer awesomeness of being awesomely correct.
    I bow to your awesomeness here. In this awesome thread.

  33. 33
    lamh35 says:

    a little levity.

    a new Superman trailer was posted to the web on either Mon or Sun.

    maybe I’m just easy and willing to give too much benefit of the doubt, but damn if it doesn’t look like it gonna be pretty darn good. dare I say, this trailer looks way better than all the Iron Man trailer.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....038;sns=em

    Superman has official taken the lead in my Summer superhero must see (big three: Iron Man, Wolverine & Superman

  34. 34
    Cacti says:

    @lojasmo:

    My point is your ONLY contribution to the board is that of trolling little bitch

    +eleventy billion

  35. 35
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @lamh35: So, Russell Crowe is old enough to be Pa Kent.

  36. 36
    JordanRules says:

    Awesome.

  37. 37
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: So, do you have anything to add to the awesomeness of the thread that relates to Manning? Or are you just here to bitch at others? Either way, I am fine with it.

  38. 38
    👽 Martin says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): For those unaware, the guy with the cowboy hat is holding the guys femoral artery in his hand, holding it shut so the guy doesn’t bleed out.

    I don’t know how you stay conscious through something like that.

  39. 39
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @👽 Martin: Conscious? Hell, the guy looked like the only blood he had left was in the femoral artery being pinched by that guy. I’m incredibly surprised he survived, considering the picture shows him nowhere close to any kind of medical anything. That was what got me. I don’t know the sequence of pictures, but I kept wondering why that guy wasn’t in an ambulance. Obviously, I don’t know what happened after the picture was taken, but to be pushing the guy in a wheelchair freaked me out as much as seeing his legs torn up.

  40. 40
    Ben Franklin says:

    So, what’s in your plans this week-end? Whistleblowing?

  41. 41
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @lamh35: Hope it’s as good as the trailer looks. Superman Returns was a bit too sleepy for my tastes.

  42. 42
    Narcissus says:

    Apparently there’s a picture on reddit and metafilter of one of the bombers standing right behind Martin Richards. Not for the faint-hearted.

    http://imgur.com/a/fEZhX

  43. 43
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    I think that’s the definition of frayed isn’t it?

  44. 44
    lamh35 says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Crowe is Jor El. Costner is Pa Kent

  45. 45
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: You’d know better than me, but that’s what I think.
    I can’t imagine what they think they’ll accomplish with the SEAL unless he’s going to produce a Christmas card signed by Manning, with Manning’s fingerprints on it with Manning’s DNA in saliva on the envelope.

  46. 46
    Cacti says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    Superman Returns was a bit too sleepy for my tastes.

    Turning him into a peeping tom/stalker was also a bit odd as a plot device.

  47. 47
    David Koch says:

    Digya notice Elizabeth Warren, Alan Grayson, and Bernie Sanders were all M.I.A. during the gun debate.

    none of them said a single word. none of them could be bothered to stand up for dead kindergartners and dead teachers

    their silence was deafening.

    What where they afraid of?

  48. 48
    burnspbesq says:

    @Corner Stone:

    So happy to have these stalwart pioneers of ethics and rule of law to be driving the debate.

    The media don’t have access to sidebars or chambers conferences in trials in civilian courts, and nothing in their filings provided any principled reason why courts-martial should be different. If you know of one, sing out. Otherwise, GFY.

  49. 49
    lamh35 says:

    @PsiFighter37: it def looks promising.

    speaking of the last one, I know I’m alone, but I didn’t hate the last one. I admit I didn’t love it, but I didn’t hate it.

    I think the new one may be better, cause boy is Cavill a good address, and he bulked up ALOT and compared to the last guy, he actually looked like solid muscle and seems to be HUGE in term of bulk that is

  50. 50
    lamh35 says:

    @PsiFighter37: it def looks promising.

    speaking of the last one, I know I’m alone, but I didn’t hate the last one. I admit I didn’t love it, but I didn’t hate it.

    I think the new one may be better, cause boy is Cavill a good address, and he bulked up ALOT and compared to the last guy, he actually looked like solid muscle and seems to be HUGE in term of bulk that is

  51. 51
    Cacti says:

    @David Koch:

    There wasn’t any opportunity to burnish their lefty creds by trashing the President.

  52. 52
    MikeJ says:

    @Soonergrunt: They asked for the SEAL before they had the ruling on Aiding the Enemy. The court could have presented a lower barrier for getting that charge and they didn’t want to have the fight over the witness then.

    Also, the people hearing the evidence are humans. Even if they’ve been told the way they’re supposed to weigh the evidence, hearing things might nudge them. At the very least they might be harsher on what actually is proven. Yes, that stuff should be argued at a later stage, but it’s never to early to demonize the other side.

  53. 53
    burnspbesq says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Given the instruction on the Aiding the Enemy charges, I don’t think he will be convicted on them

    I’d say Col. Lind is hoping that the prosecution will figure that out for themselves, decide that the plea on charges that will put Manning away for 20 years is good enough, and fold.

  54. 54
    Soonergrunt says:

    @burnspbesq: Of course, CAAF’s ruling didn’t even address that. The majority only held that since there was no appeal pending from the court immediately below, that they (CAAF) didn’t have jurisdiction to issue a writ.
    Had they held that they did have jurisdiction, do you think they would have held as you say here, and turned down CCR, et al?

  55. 55
    Mnemosyne says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Training. Lots and lots of training. And even then, you don’t know if you’re going to punk out at the last minute.

  56. 56
    Chris says:

    @lamh35:

    I’m looking forward to it too, though not as much as Wolverine or Iron Man.

    I’m really curious to see how Nolan handles it. He got famous directing a “dark, gritty, realistic” superhero reboot, which has become a total cliche but fits Batman to a tee. Superman calls for exactly the opposite overtones. We’ll see.

  57. 57
    eemom says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Been off IRL the last few hours, but congrats again on the new gig. Most splendiforous!

    As for the lack of an actual black robe — we ladies will just use our imaginashunz… ; )

  58. 58
    Yutsano says:

    @Soonergrunt: I would think the prosecutor must have some idea of what the SEAL is going to say or else this would just be a huge overreach that will cost them credibility with the judge. Since they accepted the conditions so readily there must be something up their sleeve, and playing their cards close to their chest is a decent strategy here.

  59. 59
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    I can’t imagine what they think they’ll accomplish with the SEAL unless he’s going to produce a Christmas card signed by Manning, with Manning’s fingerprints on it with Manning’s DNA in saliva on the envelope.

    My guess is that he will be a part of establishing that information leaked by Manning was found in the compound. But like you said above, that won’t be enough to get a conviction on the aiding the enemy counts. Nor should it. I think the judge got it right.

  60. 60
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Cacti:

    Not to mention that Kate Bosworth being cast as the mother of a 7-year-old was (no pun intended) super-creepy. Was Supes shagging her when she was in high school?

    The sad part was, they had the perfect Lois Lane cast in the same movie in a part that was beneath her: Parker Posey.

  61. 61
    burnspbesq says:

    @David Koch:

    Digya notice Elizabeth Warren, Alan Grayson, and Bernie Sanders were all M.I.A. during the gun debate.

    Somehow, I don’t find it odd that Congressman Grayson didn’t participate in a debate in the Senate. But that could just be me.

    As far as Warren and Sanders are concerned, I’m more interested in how they voted.

  62. 62
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @lamh35: You’re right. I even said that to myself when I watched the trailer. Then I come here and screw it up.

  63. 63
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @David Koch: I must have missed it. When was Grayson elected to the Senate?

  64. 64
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @Cacti: Yeah, but I think it also came of a bit weirdly because Brandon Routh has very little acting talent outside of looking a bit like Christopher Reeve. Oh, and being a crazed vegan in Scott Pilgrim.

    @lamh35: Yeah, I didn’t hate it either, but in hindsight, there was way too much quiet time, and the whole ‘let’s steal the crystals from the Fortress of Solitude and grow our own continent’ was a real shitty main story.

    That said, Kevin Spacey did a solid Lex Luthor. Kate Bosworth did look a bit too young to be Lois Lane, and why the heck did they even put Kal Penn in the movie if he was going to say literally nothing the entire time?

  65. 65
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @burnspbesq:

    I’d say Col. Lind is hoping that the prosecution will figure that out for themselves, decide that the plea on charges that will put Manning away for 20 years is good enough, and fold.

    I would hope the prosecution would see that. Also, I think 20 years is harsh. I think (pure personal opinion here) that 5-7 with credit for time served would be about right.

  66. 66
    Chris says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    That said, Kevin Spacey did a solid Lex Luthor.

    This. I wasn’t blown away by the movie, but that was the best part of it.

  67. 67
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @eemom: Ta, muchly. I be happy.

  68. 68
    David Koch says:

    @Gin & Tonic: I didn’t say the senate debate, I said the gun debate.

    geez, Grayson wasn’t even in office the past two years and that didn’t stop him from talking about any issue. But all of the sudden its gun safety and all of the sudden, the guy who lives in a tee vee studio, is harder to find than Jimmy Hoffa.

  69. 69
    MikeJ says:

    @eemom:

    As for the lack of an actual black robe — we ladies will just use our imaginashunz

    He’ll start out with a black robe in his night job as a male stripper. Following in the footsteps of the late Earl Warren.

  70. 70
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @MikeJ: That is one of my favorite conversational exchanges ever from the Simpsons.

  71. 71
    burnspbesq says:

    @Soonergrunt:

    Had they held that they did have jurisdiction, do you think they would have held as you say here, and turned down CCR, et al?

    Yup. I am not, and never have been, a JAG officer, but my civilian lawyer’s reading of Rules 802 and 806 of the RCM is that the presiding officer has pretty much absolute discretion to exclude the media from Rule 802 conferences.

  72. 72
    Corner Stone says:

    @burnspbesq: You stupid fucking douchebag. You’re too stupid to even get why your comment is ridiculous for its level of supreme douchebaggery. You stupid fucking douche.
    I have to give it to you though. It takes a supreme douche to elevate a simple douchebag comment into a recognizable level of smug douchebaggery.
    Fucking douchebag.

  73. 73
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: Bad day?

  74. 74
    Soonergrunt says:

    @Corner Stone: so, are you saying that he’s a douchebag?
    I’m a little unclear here.

  75. 75
    marshall says:

    THere is a report of a shooting at MIT

  76. 76
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Soonergrunt: I think you are reading into it a little.

  77. 77
    marshall says:

    ‏@BostonDotCom
    BREAKING: MIT reports gunshots fired near the Stata Center outside Kendall Square and advised students to stay clear of the area.

  78. 78
    burnspbesq says:

    @Corner Stone:

    You stupid fucking douchebag. You’re too stupid to even get why your comment is ridiculous for its level of supreme douchebaggery. You stupid fucking douche.
    I have to give it to you though. It takes a supreme douche to elevate a simple douchebag comment into a recognizable level of smug douchebaggery.
    Fucking douchebag.

    Articulate, isn’t he?

  79. 79
    David Koch says:

    @burnspbesq:

    As far as Warren and Sanders are concerned, I’m more interested in how they voted.

    this is why liberals lose.

    republican, after republican, after republican fanned out and attacked gun safety legislation on every possible outlet.

    otoh, progressive better, after progressive better, after progressive better couldn’t find the courage to take the fight to the enemy.

  80. 80
    MikeJ says:

    @marshall:

    Responding agencies continue to investigate active shooter incident at building 32(Stata). Please stay indoors and away from Building 32((Stata) and surrounding area.

    Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:48 PM

    At 10:48 PM today gunshots were reported near Building 32 (Stata) which is currently surrounded by responding agencies. The area is cordoned off. Please stay clear of area until further notice. Unknown if injuries have occurred.. Although the situation is considered active and extremely dangerous, an investigation is underway. Updates will be provided at this site when more information becomes available.

  81. 81
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @David Koch: Would it really help the gun safety cause to have the people most associated with strong liberalism/hippydom to be the faces at the front of this campaign? Or might that turn off suburban moms? IOW maybe people like Warren were asked to take a back seat.

  82. 82
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @marshall: from TPM

    At 10:48 PM today gunshots were reported near Building 32 (Stata) which is currently surrounded by responding agencies. The area is cordoned off. Please stay clear of area until further notice. Unknown if injuries have occurred.. Although the situation is considered active and extremely dangerous, an investigation is underway. Updates will be provided at this site when more information becomes available.
    Late Update – 11:21 PM: MIT website updates, calls situation an “active shooter incident”.

    That’s over a half hour of “active shooting”? That’s a lot

    Baseless pointless speculation: I’ve been wondering since I saw those pictures if this situation didn’t have more in common with Columbine than Atlanta.

  83. 83
    smintheus says:

    Just discovered that one of the children badly injured in Boston is the 12 year old son of a long-ago student of mine…a young man so thoughtful, good-hearted and decent that I took the trouble to look him up a few years back to tell him that he’d make a great and continuing impression on me. Of all my students over the decades, he’s the one who probably stands out the most.

    Don’t know that it should matter what kind of people had their lives shattered by that evil, just that they were humans and don’t deserve to be bombed. But somehow it seems even more horrific when a really fine human being is affected by this brutality.

  84. 84
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @smintheus: A personal connection to a tragedy always makes it worse.

  85. 85
    smintheus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: That’s true too.

  86. 86
    the Conster says:

    @smintheus:

    Just found out my best friend’s co-worker was planning a surprise 30th birthday party for her best friend Krystle Campbell, who had just gotten a much better job and they were really going to have a blow out celebration.

  87. 87
    jamick6000 says:

    @David Koch: I remember my first time trolling.

  88. 88
    Soonergrunt says:

    @MikeJ: Thanks for the input. Any knowledgeable input at all is greatly appreciated.

  89. 89
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @smintheus: I lived in Newtown years ago; that one freaked me out a little.

  90. 90
    BillinGlendaleCA says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I saw eemom’s comment and had no idea, congrats. So no black robe, but do we now have to call you Your Honor?

  91. 91
    David Koch says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: since when have bernie and grayson and the self appointed progressive betters listened to obummer?

  92. 92
    Hawthorne Wingnut says:

    I may be biased but I have a long-time friend Alexa O’Brien who has done great work on the Bradley Manning case…..please look her up, even Greenwald and the Huffington Post have cited her.

  93. 93
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @David Koch: Not outside of the hearing room.

  94. 94
    jamick6000 says:

    @David Koch:

    Digya notice Elizabeth Warren, Alan Grayson, and Bernie Sanders were all M.I.A. during the gun debate.

    are you a bot? I ask because you attempt to troll liberals in exactly the same way over and over and over and over and over again and there are few humans who are *that* lazy/lacking in any creativity.

  95. 95
  96. 96
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @jamick6000: As a practicing Obot, that dude’s schtick annoys me too.

  97. 97
    jamick6000 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: hahah yeah it’s basically

    [NAME OF PERSON LIBERALS LIKE] verb [SOMETHING SUPERFICIALLY KIND OF NOT LIBERAL(must be baseless)]

    [1-3 MORE GLIB SENTENCES]

    REPEAT X1000

  98. 98
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @jamick6000: The other weird thing for me is that, Obot that I am, I really like Warren, Sanders, and Grayson. Hell, I thought Grayson was vital for liberal messaging. I don’t get it. W’evs.

  99. 99
    David Koch says:

    @jamick6000: clap louder. maybe that will drown out Warren’s cowardice.

  100. 100
  101. 101
    Mnemosyne says:

    @David Koch:

    I think maybe Warren’s been a little bit busy this week. Ever since about Monday or so.

  102. 102
    David Koch says:

    @Mnemosyne: once again, I didn’t say senate debate, I said gun debate.

    the gun debate has been raging since December 14th and in the past 4 months Warren couldn’t be bother to lend her fiery communication skills on a vital issue like dead kids and teachers?

    as long as your making apologies, what’s sanders and grayson’s excuses for cutting and running from the NRA?

  103. 103
    David Koch says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I thought Grayson was vital for liberal messaging.

    so how is it his vital liberal messaging was completely missing in action during the gun debate?

  104. 104
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @David Koch: Here’s the thing, I think that that most Obots and firebaggers have a good faith interest in moving the country in a liberal/progressive direction. I tend to think our end goals are damn similar. The disagreements are over the best strategies and tactics to get us to that end result. OTOH I think there are some who really just like the fighting and have no real interest in policy or results. Those people are assholes.

  105. 105
    Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) says:

    @David Koch:

    The focus of liberal messaging for the past five years has been on matters of economic justice and the level playing field, no? For matters that relate, Sanders, Warren and Grayson have been vital at getting the message out, because they’re economic justice wonks. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to make gun control regs an economic justice issue.

    I actually find you inoffensive, and sometimes you even get a chuckle out of me, but you’re off on this one.

  106. 106
    jamick6000 says:

    @David Koch: serious question, are you trying to provoke people who are liberal or people who like to read an original thought occasionally?

  107. 107
    David Koch says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Martin Luther King would never see a strategy nor a tactic in remaining silent, especially on after massacre after massacre after massacre. And he didn’t give politicians a pass, even ones he liked.

  108. 108
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @David Koch: You aren’t comparing yourself to Dr. King, are you?

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