Chris Hayes Gets 8 PM Show at MSNBC

So says the NYT Media Decoder blog. Ed Schultz will get a weekend slot, presumably between prison documentaries. Huzzah, I say. I agree with Schultz on most things but find his schtick irritating. Hayes is thoughtful and informative.

Now if MSNBC would only shit-can Reverend Al and replace him with Joy Reid! And dropkick Tweety in favor of someone who can get through a paragraph without mentioning his stint in the Peace Corps, obsession with JFK or the Camelot of Comity that existed when Tip O’Neill and Ronald Reagan broke bread. Then, the network would actually have a watchable lineup instead of just the fabulous Rachel and the Not-Rachels.

[X-posted at Rumproast]

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266 replies
  1. 1
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Then, the network would actually have a watchable lineup instead of just the fabulous Rachel and the Not-Rachels.

    To do this, they’d have to be brave and adventurous and leave the Village.

    Not going to happen. They’re cowards and herd creatures. They are to be held in utter contempt.

  2. 2
    Corner Stone says:

    I’m glad to have the option to watch Chris more often but am concerned he won’t translate well to this format.
    Ed was an awful interviewer, and I think CH is a better one but so far just in the context of being able to focus on an issue.
    I’m glad he’s getting his shot and I hope it doesn’t flatline him too much from what he does best.
    Not really a big fan of Rev Al, although I think he’s really improved over the last year from my brief dips into his timeslot, but I simply could not watch an hour of Joy Reid ripping into anyone who disagrees with President Obama about any of the slightest things. She’s very intelligent and very able to make her points but she goes attack dog from zero MPH every time Obama comes up.
    And no, I am not saying she’s clean and articulate.

  3. 3
    Hill Dweller says:

    At the very least, MSNBC should stop running Tweety’s show at both 5 and 7. Joy Reid could host one of those slots.

  4. 4
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    I like Sharpton. I think he offers a take on things that I, and other cream cheese sculptures (love the phrase btw), don’t see very often on major networks.

  5. 5
    👽 Martin says:

    Eh.

    Here’s my problem. I really like Chris Hayes because he probes topics deeply. But he can’t do that 5 days a week. There’s not enough time to do the work. Churning a daily show is going to force him into the usual ‘rehash what showed up at TPM/Politico in the morning’ most of the time with the occassional deep piece. That might work okay – Maddow is doing relatively okay by it, but it means less of the depth.

    I’d rather have better Hayes than more Hayes. I don’t think Ed has any depth – he’s an outrage machine and I have no patience for that. That’s all Lawrence is too – except when he’s talking about Congressional sausage making – and then he’s unparalleled, but that’s really rare because Congress doesn’t do shit any more. He’d be better as a weekend show. Ed I have no use for. Same with Olbermann.

  6. 6

    I don’t mind Rev. Al. He’s a little befuddled sometimes but his show, based on the issues he covers and the guests he interviews, really seems to focus on issues affecting the black community. He’s the only one still talking about Trayvon Martin, fer crissakes.

    I don’t know why we need a repeat of Chris Matthews. Give him his hour, but jesus we don’t need to see that shit twice.

  7. 7
    Jeremy says:

    Sorry but Rev. Al is not going anywhere because he has a big following and pulls in high ratings. Actually I don’t mind Joy Reid defending Obama because majority of the people on TV shit on him 24/7.

  8. 8
    Corner Stone says:

    I think the thing I’d be concerned about is if for whatever network enforced reason, CH had to keep cycling in the same lineup of guests we see on three other MSNBC shows every day.
    That’s one of the many reasons I like the MHP show, because she brings people forward I would otherwise never hear of or hear from. She has a stable of guests/personalities as well, to be expected, but she/her staff really works their ass off to get something new pretty much every show.

  9. 9
    schrodinger's cat says:

    I don’t has cable, in the boonies where I live, so I don’t really care. Agree with you about Schultz, though. BTW I am not going to India for FIL’s one year death anniversary.

  10. 10

    @👽 Martin:

    I’d rather have better Hayes than more Hayes.

    Agreed. The mister and I have a weekend morning ritual of watching Up With Chris and Melissa Harris-Perry’s show. We really enjoy the in-depth, intelligent discussion of real issues. Not the BS “here’s the conservative talking head to repeat the Luntzian talking point du jour, here’s sputtering liberals trying to rebut a nonsensical bumper sticker bromide, lather, rinse, repeat.”

  11. 11
    Corner Stone says:

    Arrrgggghhh!! It’s McArglebargle on MSNBC right now!
    NooOOooOOooOO!!

  12. 12
    Jeremy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I agree. Actually Rev. Al is one of the top shows on MSNBC. I really don’t watch the channel like I use to because it’s a mix of GOP talking points and emo progressive whining.

  13. 13
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I read about your grandma, {{{{Omnes}}}}. I lost my grandma when she was 65, about 20 years ago. I still miss her. She was a tough broad, she always encouraged me to speak my mind and go after what I want.

  14. 14
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    Fuck all that. Until they get rid of that hack Morning Ho, they are whistling past the both-sides-do-it graveyard.

  15. 15
    The Dangerman says:

    Sorry for the early O/T, but we have some really sharp techies here, maybe one of them can help me find a techie solution.

    I’m looking for a “white list” telephone call blocker for a land line phone; basically, only pre-approved numbers get through to a ringer. I’ve tried “black list” solutions, but they are basically worthless in this age of spoofing telephone numbers. Ideally, the non-white numbers would get sent to an answering machine, but I’ll take any solution that doesn’t ring the phone. Yes, my service provider offers the service for free, but I can only white-list a dozen numbers, which is far too few.

    Any cool techie toys out there? I’ve been searching the Almighty Google, but no luck yet. Ideas?

  16. 16
    👽 Martin says:

    I have to agree that Rev Al has gotten a lot better, but he doesn’t fill the right need. We’ve got MHP who does a fantastic job at sort of the high policy/academic level. I would like to see someone really do an inner city street level focus – Al kind of represents that but doesn’t really deliver it. Not sure he can given his history. I want to see Chicago and Detroit (etc) urban crime/poverty up close. None of this DC view bullshit. No shying away from ‘oh, it’s an intractable inner city black people problem’. I want to see immigration at that level too – where undocumented immigrant labor goes, the struggles inside documented/undocumented families, the challenges of getting through the immigration process. It doesn’t need to be every day, but there’s aggregation of news that needs to be done every day, with the in-depth stuff done on a regular recurring basis. I can only handle so many takes on why Paul Ryan is a douchebag. I get it, and I’ll still get it tomorrow. Show us something we aren’t seeing.

  17. 17
    max says:

    presumably between prison documentaries.

    Maybe he should do prison documentaries. Jeez, maybe he should interview prisoners (the good, the bad, and the nazi-tattooed)! I might watch that.

    Now if MSNBC would only shit-can Reverend Al

    Actually, I like Al. Hey. They could put him on a show with whathisname Steele and it could be like Black Crossfire. That would be kinda cool.

    And dropkick Tweety in favor of someone who can get through a paragraph without mentioning his stint in the Peace Corps

    ‘Interpretive Dancing Hour with Tweety’!

    max
    [‘Define ‘watchable’.’]

  18. 18
    Mandalay says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I like Sharpton. I think he offers a take on things that I, and other cream cheese sculptures (love the phrase btw), don’t see very often on major networks.

    Part of Sharpton’s “take” is to never criticize Obama under any circumstances. That certainly gives him a niche, but it is of pretty limited value, however much you might like the president.

  19. 19
    max says:

    @👽 Martin: I want to see immigration at that level too – where undocumented immigrant labor goes, the struggles inside documented/undocumented families, the challenges of getting through the immigration process.

    Oh. Hey! Merge that with my idea about the prison interview show! AH HA!

    max
    [‘This is gettin’ better.’]

  20. 20
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @schrodinger’s cat: Thank you. She was 91 and had lived a long full life. She was able to, and did, make the choices regarding her care and treatment up to the end. One can’t ask for too much more than that.

  21. 21
    ChrisB says:

    One thing I don’t like about Chris Hayes’s weekend show are the commercials every 5 or 6 minutes. What’s up with that?!

    (Sorry, had to say it and I end up recording the show anyway.)

  22. 22
    NotMax says:

    Like the panels on the weekend UP show, especially as they often include fresh faces and non-mainstream POVs. The weekday format is not really Hayes’ forte.

    However, Hayes, Harris-Perry and Klein all are in dire need of vocal coaching to tame their sibilant ‘s’ (which is magnified by the mediocre audio equipment). Would that they all, at the very least, read this.

    Sometimes (I tend to listen, often with my back to the screen) it sounds as if the programs are hosted by Cindy Brady.

    Also too, presume Schultz will be keeping his radio show. He may just have jumped at an opportunity to spend more time with his cancer-recovering spouse.

  23. 23
    Danton says:

    I don’t mind Rev. Al but I really like Ed. He’s a voice for labor, which is sorely missing in our broadcast media. Right before the election, when he was out in the Midwest, putting labor voices on the air, he was incredibly good. I’m hoping the weekend slot allows him more time to do stuff like that–talk to real people, put meat-and-potatoes middle-class issues on the table. Working people open up to him, so it’s a cinch he’d be great at this.

  24. 24
    SatanicPanic says:

    @👽 Martin: Second this. My local NPR affiliate does a decent job of bringing these stories to the radio, but it would be cool if there were moving pictures to go along with these stories.

  25. 25
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Danton: Schultz’s style grates on me, but I have a soft spot for him since he basically set up camp on the Square in Madison back in 2011.

  26. 26
    Jim Pharo says:

    I really like Rev. Al, and think his show is a gem. He’s certainly not conventional, but he’s experienced and savvier than most of his guests.

    I agree that Hayes suffers from undue Grad-School-ism, in that he comes off (unfairly, I’d guess) quite condescending and egg-heady. And poor Chris Matthews really just needs someone to take him by the hand, calm him down, and get him a nice dish of spaghetti and then maybe a nap.

    I also like Joy Reid a ton, though I wish she’d make more of an effort to be less “us vs. them,” a la Rachel. But even so, she’s so thoughtful and eloquent that I’d be happy to have her.

    Why do these shows have to be :60 any way? What would be wrong with :30s? Or, Television Gods forfend! :20s?

  27. 27
    askew says:

    Why do we need to get rid of Al? Can we only have 1 minority host per night?

    The Hayes/Maddow/O’Donnell line-up will be boring and repetitive as they all have similar viewpoints and style. Schultz brought a different viewpoint and style. I would have liked to see Alex Wagner, Tamaron Hall or Joy Reid get Ed’s slot. They all have different perspectives and styles than the boring trio. But, I doubt any of them were in serious contention.

  28. 28
    Ben Franklin says:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/14/opinion/the-impact-of-the-bradley-manning-case.html

    So yes, we continue to disagree about what to make of Private Manning and WikiLeaks. But we agree that WikiLeaks is part of what the Fourth Estate is becoming, that the leaks included important disclosures and that their publication is protected by the First Amendment no less than the publication of the Pentagon Papers was.

    Private Manning’s guilty plea gives the prosecution an opportunity to rethink its strategy. The extreme charges remaining in this case create a severe threat to future whistle-blowers, even when their revelations are crystal-clear instances of whistle-blowing. We cannot allow our concerns about terrorism to turn us into a country where communicating with the press can be prosecuted as a capital offense.

    The NYT is a different ‘paper of record’ than it was for the Pentagon Papers. They allow the occasional counter-intuitive piece from a contributor…..just to appear like a newspaper.

  29. 29
    Linnaeus says:

    @Danton:

    I generally agree. I can understand why Schultz would get on some people’s nerves, but he gives coverage to issues that we really need to be covered.

  30. 30
    The Other Chuck says:

    @The Dangerman: You can use Google Voice and have it forward to your land line. Give people that number instead of the direct land line number, and you can set up Google Voice to blacklist, whitelist, screen calls, set Do Not Disturb hours, and so on and so forth.

    Not a lot you can do about people who have your number already — they just don’t make a lot of consumer-level devices for land lines anymore, except for the phones themselves. You could try a phone with custom rings and set it to silent for everyone but your whitelist.

  31. 31
    askew says:

    @Jeremy:

    Sorry but Rev. Al is not going anywhere because he has a big following and pulls in high ratings. Actually I don’t mind Joy Reid defending Obama because majority of the people on TV shit on him 24/7.

    Yep, Al and Joy are really the only commentators that have Obama’s back. The rest of them are all too willing to attack him just as unfairly as Fox does. They just do it from the “left”.

  32. 32
    The Other Chuck says:

    @askew: At the risk of turning this into a firebagger-vs-obot thread, I’m not sure I want anyone in the fourth estate to “have Obama’s back”. The truth does just fine for me, and 90% of the time for POTUS.

  33. 33
    ruemara says:

    Amazing how so much of the criticism here is that Obama is not criticized enough. God, get over it, Ed Schultz starts off nearly every WH issue with “Looks like a big cave is coming. Let’s get to work.” I think Reverend Al is not my cup of tea, but, he engages the black community at a populist level and since BET canned it’s news department, he serves a purpose. And I have no problem with being “us vs them” because we’re not here to make buddies with republicans, even the moderate ones. I’d be more grateful if some news showed up on MSNBC, because even golden girl Rachael is mostly some news with lots of opinions. You have to weed that out to get to the bones of what’s happening. Glad to see Chris Hayes getting a bigger platform, though. I could not ever get up early enough to enjoy his full show, so this means us egg-heady types who would prefer a wonkish exploration of topics can indulge on a Monday – Friday basis. I do agree that there is not much discussion from a labour focus, which Schultz is really good at. Unfortunately, the only ones who could do that are Al and Schultz, since they’re about the sole working class level commentators MSNBC has given a show to. I know Tweety parades his bonafides, but let’s get real, the last time Matthews was working class, he was in short pants.

  34. 34
    askew says:

    @👽 Martin:

    I think Al does a great job on that but I agree that MSNBC doesn’t have anybody that does a great job on immigration issues in people’s everyday life.

    And I know I am a broken record about this, but Alex Wagner’s show has an interview once a week highlighting a filmmaker or reporter that dives into serious issues like poverty, rape in the military. Something that doesn’t get a lot of discussion in the media, which is why I wanted her to get Ed’s slot. Because no one really watches MSNBC during the day, so her show gets little exposure and I can’t see her getting guest slots on Chris or Rachel’s shows.

  35. 35
    japa21 says:

    Hayes is a smug, pompous ass. Big Ed can get on people’s nerves but he is probably more real than any of the others.

  36. 36
    MomSense says:

    I only have cbs, nbc, abc, c-span, and pbs. I think there are a couple shopping networks on there too but I don’t really watch enough tv to bother figuring out the channels. I have to have basic cable in order to get the internet otherwise I would just skip it. When I have watched cable networks I saw the same stories repeated throughout the day with very little variation. Seems like a colossal waste of resources to me.

    With 24/7 news they could actually cover all the things–all over the world. They don’t seem to be interested in reporting what goes on in the world so I don’t bother watching.

  37. 37
    nellcote says:

    Love Joy-Ann Reid. She’s a real reporter in the best old-school sense of the word. As a bonus, she doesn’t have DC amnesia.

    Love Rev. Al if for no other reason than he forced MSNBC to bring more POC into the mix.

    If Hayes starts bringing Greenwald/Sirota into prime time he’s dead to me.

  38. 38
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @Linnaeus: My 80 year old mother will miss Ed because to her he’s the voice of the people. He appeals to her viscerally where an egg-head like Chris Hayes never could. Then again, she’s not the demographic MSNBC wants to reach.

    Alex Wagner, Joy Reid or Tamron Hall would have been better choices,IMO because the new line up is 3 hours of sameness. BTW, where are the liberal voices for rural Americans?

  39. 39
    askew says:

    @The Other Chuck:

    @askew: At the risk of turning this into a firebagger-vs-obot thread, I’m not sure I want anyone in the fourth estate to “have Obama’s back”. The truth does just fine for me, and 90% of the time for POTUS.

    If we were talking about an ideal world where Fox News didn’t exist and CNN was neutral, I wouldn’t want that. But, we have Fox News and CNN pushing GOP talking points and most of the MSNBC hosts either attacking Obama over the latest outrage or playing both sides are to blame. That makes it hard for Obama to get his point of view out, which makes it harder for his agenda to get passed. And that’s what I care about. If the media had no influence, I wouldn’t care that they spend most their time bashing Obama.

  40. 40

    @ruemara:

    I do agree that there is not much discussion from a labour focus, which Schultz is really good at.

    This is true, Schultz is the only one who regularly has labor leaders on his program, both radio and TV. He’s the only one who had the UAW`s Bob King on almost every day during the campaign.

  41. 41
    MikeJ says:

    @The Other Chuck:

    At the risk of turning this into a firebagger-vs-obot thread, I’m not sure I want anyone in the fourth estate to “have Obama’s back”.

    As Fox always likes to remind us, opinion shows are different from news shows. When there exist shows that are dedicated to attacking Obama, I don’t have a problem with a show that defends him.

  42. 42
    nellcote says:

    @askew:

    I would have liked to see Alex Wagner, Tamaron Hall or Joy Reid

    Hmm, what do they have in common that’s different than Hayes/Maddow/ODonnell?

  43. 43

    Also, whenever people talk about ratings, it really makes me nuts to hear comparisons between MSNBC and Fox. MSNBC is part of a premium package in almost all satellite and cable systems — we have to pay extra for that. Fox News is free, part of the basic package. At least, that’s how it was with Dish Network and that’s how it is with DirectTV (DirectTV is owned by Murdoch I believe, or was at one point).

    If MSNBC is beating or coming close to beating Fox in primtime when you have to pay extra for it versus freebie Fox, that is big news.

    Unskew the ratings! :-)

  44. 44
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @askew: I agree, askew. Wasn’t it late last year when Pew came out with a survey that 93% of Obama stories were negative?

  45. 45
    askew says:

    @nellcote:

    Hmm, what do they have in common that’s different than Hayes/Maddow/ODonnell?

    A pulse? They actually leave the rich, white, liberal bubble once in awhile and now how things impact real people?

    Oh, you mean that they aren’t white? That’s horrible right? Because god forbid a progressive MSNBC cater to the actual progressive demographic which has a huge segment of people of color.

    @askew: I agree, askew. Wasn’t it late last year when Pew came out with a survey that 93% of Obama stories were negative?

    Yep, but some people still get bent out shape with even 7% of positive coverage of Obama. MSNBC hosts outside of Al are very worried about maintaining their cred and bash Obama to make sure they don’t lose their spot in the village hierarchy.

  46. 46
    nellcote says:

    Never forgave Ed Shultz for telling people not to vote in ’10 to protest Obamacare.

  47. 47
    PeakVT says:

    @MomSense: Reporting costs a lot more than a talking head show. That’s why we get so many of the latter.

  48. 48
    Jeremy says:

    @askew: Yeah. I don’t mind legitimate criticism of the president because I have been critical a few times. I just feel that the MSM left, right, and center continues 24/7 negative coverage of the president. Pew had a poll last year showing 90 % negative coverage of Obama. I don’t mind hearing some positive things / accomplishments.

  49. 49
    Yutsano says:

    @MikeJ: It just allows the howler monkeys to declare that MSNBC is the liberal Fox, both sides do it, and they can just leave it there cause they’re late to Sally Quinn’s next soiree.

  50. 50
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I don’t mind Rev. Al but I really like Ed. He’s a voice for labor, which is sorely missing in our broadcast media

    Schutlz said I think he’s going to focus on labor issues, class an inequality, which I sadly suspect are not big ratings getters. I think that’s where his heart is, rather than the constant Beltway Kremlinology with, as someone said, the same half dozen analysts rotating in and out of the chairs and sets. Sharpton and O’Donnell are great guests, a bit more problematic as hosts, IMHO. I would love to see Joy Reid or somebody anchoring a show where Sharpton was a permanent devil’s advocate against Villagers and their CW. I was going to say O’Donnell could use a co-host, then I thought that it would just be a blond, liberal version of Scarborough, all that smug insiderism paired with sidekick.

    Speaking of issues of class and inequality and Village CW, yesterday Alex Wagner had on the producers of a new HBO documentary about middle class people sliding into poverty, just the clips were heartbreaking, and all I could think of was smug, bourbon-soaked multimillionaire cockwart Tom Brokaw spewing a Palin-esque word salad of Romney campaign talking points about “we need to stop giving people free stuff”.

  51. 51
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    I think Ed would be good in Joe’s morning spot. He’s got a radio background and that whole morning thing started with a simulcast of Imus’ radio show. Schultz could be a little more cutting and irreverent in the morning. His booming voice would be a wake up instead of a turn off.

    And Joey Scar would be better on Fox anyway.

  52. 52
    Elie says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I agree. I like Rev Al — his point of view is frequently a little more from the little guy perspective.

    Chris Hayes is ok — too cerebral and a little boring to me.

    Yes, the current lineup is a bunch of characters. That feels homey to me and I like it — though I would agree with the addition of Joi Ann.

    I don’t want a bunch of younger geeks with no distinct personalities doing only politically correct speech and not occasionally wandering off topic. I like that. I acknowledge not everyone does, though.

  53. 53
    MikeJ says:

    @Yutsano:

    It just allows the howler monkeys to declare that MSNBC is the liberal Fox, both sides do it, and they can just leave it there cause they’re late to Sally Quinn’s next soiree.

    But they already say that. May as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.

  54. 54
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Southern Beale: I’ve been traveling a fair bit in the last few years, and I haven’t done the math, but my estimate is all of them have Fox, about a third get MSNBC. Comedy Central and AMC are also pretty rare.

    The HBO documentary is called American Winter.

  55. 55
    minutemaid says:

    I got sick of Schultz’s schtick after his first week on the air. It would be ok if it pissed off the right but he wasn’t even any good at doing that.

    I’m not crazy about Maddow’s all gay issues all the time show but she drives the right crazy so that’s a gold star in my book.

    Al is ok but a little dry and stiff.

    Will have to see what Hayes does. He doesn’t seem to scare or intimidate the right and that is half the equation for a successful show imho.

  56. 56
    Jeremy says:

    People act like if you don’t shit on Obama 24/7 then you’re an Obot.

  57. 57
    👽 Martin says:

    @askew:

    Can we only have 1 minority host per night?

    I’m not sure Beltway insiderism delivered by a minority is what’s needed. It’s good that he gives a forum for minority legislators and looks at the effects of legislation on minorities, but I’m not sure that’s really the pressing need – or that MSNBC is the necessary outlet for that. My understanding is that it’s still a whole lot of white people watching, nodding along to ‘yeah, that’s fine’. What is still missing, IMO, is the reality on the ground that these policies tie into, and that policy is missing altogether. Okay, so the sequester means that 700,000 WIC recipients will be cut. What does that statistic mean? Ok, that’s a lot of people, but the story is on the depth of the impact on those 700,000 people. Unless you know people on WIC and really understand how their lives will change, it has no real meaning. And the problem is the the MSNBC (and most other cable news audiences) don’t understand that. And a talking head interview won’t deliver that. Al could do that show, but either he doesn’t want to or (more likely) MSNBC isn’t interested in that for any of a variety of reasons. I think it’s important that these stories be delivered by people that have lived that life – it’s why Ta Nahisi is such a powerful writer – he writes extensively about what he knows and is able to tie it back to the social/national level. I want the 6PM version of him. I’d replace the whole lineup with hosts that bring the inner city, bring immigration, bring labor up to and tie into the news cycle.

    I agree Ed does help do that for labor, but I don’t think he does it well. Yeah, the passion is there, but it just doesn’t come together for me. Maybe I’m just an outlier on that one, but I really want to see someone talk about the structural problems with bringing manufacturing to the US, rather than just complaining about it. Democrats are not much better than Republicans about demanding things without understanding the structural issues behind why the are the way they are. It just winds up being a waste of time if you refuse to learn about and address those fundamental problems. An example: there’s some new high tech manufacturing initiatives starting up here in CA. The engineers doing the initial work are largely being brought over from China, because there’s so few people in the US trained/qualified to do it. You can’t talk about who should be working in the factory if we fail at being able to build the goddamn factory. Nobody talks about this – except for the companies we’re blaming. And they keep saying this, and we keep whistling past them because everyone has this simplistic view of manufacturing. We can’t demand useful policies if we don’t even understand the subject. Where’s Ed on this? He doesn’t understand it either. He’s a fucking football player and sports broadcaster. He never worked on a production line or tried to set up manufacturing. We need that guy.

  58. 58
    dan says:

    Better Chris Hayes is preferable to more Chris Hayes. I like when he can devote an hour or 2 to a specific topic and have different guests throughout the show to come at the topic at different angles. I don’t think he can do that in a 1 hour 5 nite a week format.

    Wanted to like MHP, but after Chris Hayes tackles debt or fracking or healthcare or unions or any number of interesting topics, I have no patience for 4 hours a week of MHP doing nothing by gender and race.

    Al Sharpton is a mush-mouth who can frequently be embarrassing to watch. And he has limits to his knowledge on some topics. Although I love him as a guest on other shows.

    And I love Chris Matthews. His sheer enthusiasm for what he is doing is fun to watch. He’s the Irish uncle I never had (the Irish uncle I do have is the racist blowhard one).

  59. 59
    Trakker says:

    @Danton:

    ..but I really like Ed. He’s a voice for labor, which is sorely missing in our broadcast media.

    Absolutely! Ed grates on me but I appreciate his anger and energy and how he sticks up for unions and blue collar workers. No one else is.

    Sharpton took a little getting used to but once I got used to his delivery I was impressed with his insights. A keeper. Joy Reid? Yes! Brilliant! Give her one of Tweety’s slots.

    I think MSNBC has a great lineup (afternoon, evening, weekend). What I like best is that they seek out great minority voices to interview.

    However, I wish all evening hosts would spend less time making fun of the clowns on the right and more time explaining just how much harm the right has already done to America. Ridiculing the clowns are just picking low hanging fruit and only serve to make us feel superior while the real damage is being done by the wealthy and connected.

  60. 60
    👽 Martin says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    I think Ed would be good in Joe’s morning spot.

    That’s actually a really good idea.

  61. 61
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Jeremy:

    People act like if you don’t shit on Obama 24/7 then you’re an Obot.

    Shake those pompoms like you mean it, Jeremy.

  62. 62
    MomSense says:

    @PeakVT:

    Oh I know, but still–you could probably condense the entire day of programming down to about 17 1/2 minutes of straight reporting.

    The talking heads model is cheaper–and then both sides of every issue have to be represented so the sides develop spin to fit the programming format. Pretty soon news is just someone from “both sides” talking past each other and that becomes “both sides do it” and fringe opinions are given far too much air time in the name of “fair and balanced” to “both sides”.

    The news gets dumb and the viewer gets dumber.

  63. 63
    Joy says:

    @👽 Martin: I agree completely with your whole statement. I’m not sure about Chris Hayes on a daily basis, but more power to him to try it.

  64. 64
    askew says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Again, I’ll just echo Alex Wagner does that. I think she gets it perfectly.

    But, I don’t understand if we are only going to get talking heads echoing the same talking points, why it’s a problem to ask for a couple of them to be minorities.

    On a side note, I’d love a show that focuses on what government is actually doing right whether on a federal level or a local level. I follow politics obsessively and just about the only place I find out about something good that Obama’s admin has done is on twitter or the Obama diary. It just doesn’t get discussed anywhere else. This is stuff that impacts people’s lives and we never hear about it in the media. If we want people to support government, progressives need to talk about what government does well.

  65. 65
    👽 Martin says:

    @minutemaid:

    I’m not crazy about Maddow’s all gay issues all the time show

    Wha? Ok, she covers gay issues for, well, very obvious reasons. And she covers them really damn well for those same reasons. But she covers our Defense policies equally as much, and better than anyone else does. And she doesn’t defend Obama on those issues either.

  66. 66
    Alison says:

    Ah, I like Reverend Al. He’s not the smoothest host, true, but as others have said, he covers topics, especially relating to the African-American community, that other shows don’t. Also, I think it’s helpful to have a progressive Christian voice with a platform like that to show that not all religious people are wingnuts, and to offer a version of religion that honors social justice rather than stomps on it.

    I agree with the concerns about what this move will do to the format and content of Up, and while I know they won’t, I wish they would get rid of the second Hardball airing and give Up two hours. Not gonna happen, but a ladywonk can dream…

  67. 67
    Joy says:

    @nellcote: Me neither. Never watched him after that.

  68. 68
    shortstop says:

    @dan:

    Al Sharpton is a mush-mouth who can frequently be embarrassing to watch. And he has limits to his knowledge on some topics. Although I love him as a guest on other shows.

    And I love Chris Matthews. His sheer enthusiasm for what he is doing is fun to watch. He’s the Irish uncle I never had (the Irish uncle I do have is the racist blowhard one).

    The juxtaposition of these two paragraphs cracked me up. I enjoy watching Tweety hit one out of the park when he’s turned down his ADHD long enough to pay attention to something, but his knowledge of both policy and process is abysmal and most of his thinking hasn’t changed since the 1980s — that’s what’s embarrassing to watch.

    Sharpton’s not perfect or completely consistent, but he’s got a far, far better grasp of policy and politics in general and is about a thousand percent more insightful than Matthews. Sometimes I think — and this last part isn’t directed at you, dan — people look at him and hear him talking about Tawana Brawley rather than listen to what he’s saying now.

  69. 69
    kc says:

    I kinda like Rev. Al.

  70. 70

    Anne Boleyn’s Head. Because Peggy Noonan couldn’t get any creepier.

  71. 71
    raven says:

    @kc: me 2

  72. 72
    PeakVT says:

    It’s a bit dated (2011 is the latest), but here’s some data on cable news viewers and revenue. Faux has about 4x the revenue and profits as MSNBC – which does make a pretty healthy return, at least according to the numbers at the link.

    ETA: it doesn’t include households reached at what subscriber level, which is what I was looking for.

  73. 73
    feebog says:

    Absolutely no reason for the Chris Matthews Show to run twice in three hours. I would be fine if they wanted to run it again in a late night spot. Tweety would be great if he could just learn to ask a question and then shut up, but his multi-part questions and frequent interuptions drive me crazy. Love me some TRMS, best newscast on TV period in my view.

  74. 74
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    I think what many of you aren’t intuitively grasping is that a host is first and foremost a personality. That’s what Tweety’s got in spades and why he’s successful, same with Rachel only slightly less so.

    I’m sure Chris Hayes is a great person but his personality is kinda dull on the teevee.

  75. 75
    askew says:

    @shortstop:

    Sharpton’s not perfect or completely consistent, but he’s got a far, far better grasp of policy and politics in general and is about a thousand percent more insightful than Matthews. Sometimes I think — and this last part isn’t directed at you, dan — people look at him and hear him talking about Tawana Brawley rather than listen to what he’s saying now.

    Both Ed and Tweety get a pass on their political knowledge that Sharpton doesn’t get. Part of it is due to the Tawana nonsense and part of it is due to race unfortunately.

  76. 76
    raven says:

    @feebog: He’s a fucking moron.

  77. 77
    piratedan says:

    granted, while I love Chris Hayes, I’m kind of in the camp that wishes someone like Alex Wagner or Soledad O’Brien had been given the forum instead. I do agree with the Prez on his approach for most issues but he’s not right (imho) all of the time and I don’t mind constructive criticism of him as long a people who are doing the criticizing do so with an awareness of how severely rigged the game is at the moment. Not enough voices in the media who are women or minorities imho and there need to be more to focus on the batshit crazy that is going on from the folks on the right who are attempting to reduce women to baby making chattel units.

  78. 78
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I’m well aware of all of Tweety’s faults, one of the great things about discovering the progressive blogosphere for was that other people saw this Clinton-hating, Bush fellating buffoon for what he was, namely Tim Russert’s raging id. And they called him Tweety! THat was before the Iraq War, which shades all my opinions of politics and pundits. Tweety still had, and still has, a weakness for Bush, and I can’t forget that moment in New Hampshire in ’08 when actually fucking pinched Hillary Clinton’s cheek, but he called the Iraq War for what it was, and was about the only bigfoot pundit to call out the Romney campaign for its race-baiting. I think there’s an untold story there the NBC higher ups (Brokaw, probably others) tried to get him to stop that, but he’s a big enough name and a big enough presence that he could, and did, ignore them. He’s still got his delusional star-fucker and daddy issues, i.e. his calling for the American Ratzinger and Scalia Republican “Tim” Dolan to be a great force for liberal reform in the Church, but on some big issues, he told the Village to go fuck itself from the town-square.

  79. 79
    raven says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: He’s a fucking moron.

  80. 80
    amk says:

    meh, another navel gazer. just what the left needs.

  81. 81
    raven says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: And he had John O’Neill and the Swiftboat motherfuckers on OVER AND OVER fawning at their feet because they were chicken-shit peace corps fucks like him.

  82. 82
    ChrisB says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: That wouldn’t work. Labor is on the job already at 6:00 am.

  83. 83
    askew says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Tweety definitely has his moments. His weird revisionism of Bill Clinton’s legacy right now is making me crazy along with his theory that Obama got re-elected thanks to the Clintons.

    But, when he goes after Republicans for racism, it is a thing of beauty. He horrifies the Village for calling it out but I love it. So, he gets a pass with me for the most part.

  84. 84
    Another Halocene Human says:

    Lawrence O’Donnell and Ezra Klein suck more than anybody you mentioned in your post, Betty. Presumably you’re asleep by then but… I’m not.

  85. 85
    Heliopause says:

    Now if MSNBC would only shit-can Reverend Al

    Interesting to see a Juicer saying this. I kind of liked Sharpton when he was a pseudo-politician and occasional pundit, but his show, along with Martin Bashir’s, is utterly useless. They just brainlessly regurgitate Democratic Party talking points, which is a complete waste of my time since I already know all the Dem talking points, in fact, most anybody with anything more than a third grade education already knows all the talking points in our political discourse. And on top of that, Bashir is a very unpleasant individual.

  86. 86
    dan says:

    @askew: And part of it is due to Sharpton’s knowledge gap. Unfortunately. Not Tawana Brawley. His knowledge is narrow and deep on some issues, but he is not high on my list of people that I want to hear discussing, say, the Keystone Pipeline.

  87. 87
    minutemaid says:

    @👽 Martin: You cannot deny Maddow is the go to political show for the LGBT community just like Hannity is the go to political show for the white supremacist community.

    Yea, Maddow covers a lot of other stuff but a large percentage of the things she covers involves LGBT issues and things that that affect the LGBT community.

    It’s just not something that I have any interest in. That’s all.

  88. 88
    SatanicPanic says:

    @raven: don’t sugarcoat it, tell us how you really feel

  89. 89
    raven says:

    @minutemaid: At least she quit bitching about the lack of welcome home parades.

  90. 90
    Jeremy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: And this what I’m talking about. What was the point of that comment ? I said earlier that their is legitimate criticism but why can’t we have more balance and find out what positive things are happening ? Or is that considered being a cheerleader ?

  91. 91
    shortstop says:

    @dan: But you don’t mind Tweety’s continent-wide knowledge gaps?

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I admit to total hypocrisy in that I frequently mutter at Tweety to STFU when he’s jabbering away over some guest I want to hear…then, when’s he’s exercising his trademark yelping dismissiveness toward, for example, someone on Romney’s team denying race baiting, I’m laughing my ass off.

  92. 92
    raven says:

    @Jeremy: Not from here are you?

  93. 93
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @askew: Tamron Hall is kinda conservative/Villagery. No thanks. Maybe use her to replace Morning Joe for the allegedly conservative oldster set in the AM. (I use it to wake up when I’m at conferences. He pisses me off which raises my blood pressure more effectively than coffee.)

    What about Soledad O’Brien? Wouldn’t have to be every day of the week. I hear she’s looking for a job.

  94. 94
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @askew: Tweety definitely has his moments. His weird revisionism of Bill Clinton’s legacy right now is making me crazy along with his theory that Obama got re-elected thanks to the Clintons

    Yeah, that’s infuriating, but it’s also hilarious . His anti-Clinton bias was as much about his being turned down for the press sec’s job he was lobbying for in ’97 and the fact that Little Willie was at play in the “PEOPLE”S HOUSE!” I wonder if he thinks JFK took his lady friends over to the Hay Adams.

    @raven: I didn’t remember that, but it’s definitely a black mark on his record. He and Brokaw and Russert were the Big Three of creating the McCain myth, and there’s no question in my mind that their guilt about Vietnam, intertwined with massive gender/daddy issues, fueled that. But they had no problem pissing on Kerry and making excuses for the Shrubb. Extraordinary to me that those three found each other all at the same corporate media borg at teh same time to carry the old man’s water (reading between the lines of press coverage when he died, Russert didn’t like Tweety, I woudln’t be surprised if Brokaw doesn’t, either).

    ETA: another memory from ’04, Tweety blaring in his uniquely Tweety way, about Kerry “HE LOOKS FRENCH! HE LOOKS FRENCH! BWA-HA!”

  95. 95
    askew says:

    @dan:

    @askew: And part of it is due to Sharpton’s knowledge gap. Unfortunately. Not Tawana Brawley. His knowledge is narrow and deep on some issues, but he is not high on my list of people that I want to hear discussing, say, the Keystone Pipeline.

    But, we have 10 other hosts on MSNBC who can cover the Keystone Pipeline. We don’t have any other host who covers the violence in inner cities, what’s happening in Detroit, the impact of the new voter ID laws, etc. in the same way that Al can. He brings a much needed different perspective to MSNBC.

    Maddow, Klein and Hayes all bring the same perspective and tend to care and view things in the same manner. O’Donnell and Tweety have different viewpoints because they’ve actually worked for years in government and understand how it works unlike the other 3.

  96. 96
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Linnaeus: His shouty shtick is just what I need blaring from the computer when I’m doing chores around the house, hehe. Plus, I don’t usually miss much, although I do stop for his interviews of labor leaders.

  97. 97
    the Conster says:

    @askew:

    Tweety’s Villager cred is the reason why he should stay – he really is one of them but really does pull out his old school Catholic upbringing righteousness against racial injustice and he’s unique in the Village to do that. He’s not so good on women’s issues, but that’s his generation of Catholic men and their attitudes toward sex as shameful. I wish he’d just shut up half the time and let his knowledgeable guests talk.

  98. 98
    Elie says:

    @Heliopause:

    I disagree that Rev Al just does Democratic talking points. I think just the fact that he isn’t so slick and absolutely knowledgeable, but emotionally effective, is what makes him stand out. I think he captures and reflects much of the feeling in the black community that gets very little airing on the media. Is he perfect? Is he a wild, afro haired, intellectual, revolutionary? Obviously no.

    Again, I acknowledge and accept that there are different tastes and points of view… I generally like hosts who are themselves kinda one of a kind types with a little personality…I work with enough intellectual cyborgs all day to not want to see it in the evening

  99. 99
    raven says:

    @askew: O’Donnell understands the nuts and bolts of legislation. Tweety understands ZIP!

  100. 100
    askew says:

    @raven:

    @minutemaid: At least she quit bitching about the lack of welcome home parades.

    Holy hell that was annoying because even veterans groups didn’t care or didn’t want the parades and she wouldn’t believe them. When she gets on an issue no amount of logic or reason will dissuade her. She’s like Tweety that way. I remember her having multiple stories throughout 2010 about how Obama was intentionally slow-walking DADT repeal to kill it and how he was going to sell us out no matter how many times people told her she was wrong.

    @askew: O’Donnell understands the nuts and bolts of legislation. Tweety understands ZIP!

    I think Tweety gets how the game is played which is why he gets pissed at Obama because he doesn’t play the old game that the other presidents did. He loves the campaign aspect of politics and is less interested in policy.

  101. 101
    Jeremy says:

    @Heliopause: Yeah but Rev. Al was the leading voice on voter suppression, and he does address issues important to the black community. I know for some people they don’t care about these things but plenty of people do care. Which is a reason why he has high ratings.

  102. 102
    raven says:

    @askew: Myopia

  103. 103
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @ruemara: God, get over it, Ed Schultz starts off nearly every WH issue with “Looks like a big cave is coming. Let’s get to work.”

    To be fair, labor felt betrayed by Obama from the start although it was actually the Senate Dems who stuck the shiv in (but Obama prooooomiiiiiiised). Senate Dems continue to stick the shiv into organized labor. It just doesn’t stop. And Obama has backed away from getting down with labor like Schultz does because he became concerned about ODS. So were the labor leaders.

    It’s been clear recently that labor issues are very important to Obama but he didn’t show that so much in his first term when he was catfishing the GOP.

    So ‘looks like a cave is coming, let’s get to work’ is exactly what the AFL-CIO wants to put out. When the Sen and House (when they fucking function at all) go to conference, fucking organized labor is the typical compromise gesture. And then Obama signs it. Fuck, yeah, they need to get to work.

    Fuck. Also.

  104. 104
    Robert says:

    Do Rachel’s regular subs Chris Hayes and Melissa Harris-Perry count as Rachel or Not-Rachels. The three of them have the only shows I can get through on the network.

  105. 105
    raven says:

    @Robert: I like MHP’s lisp.

  106. 106
    bemused says:

    Is it true that Tamron Hall and Lawrence O’Donnell are or were dating?

  107. 107
    👽 Martin says:

    @minutemaid:

    You cannot deny Maddow is the go to political show for the LGBT community

    I don’t. But you can earn that moniker without being ‘all gay all the time’. I disagree that she spends an inordinate amount of time on gay issues is all. I think she’s just better on the subject when she covers it (without it costing how she covers other areas), and that’s why she’s earned that reputation. And even on that subject, she leans toward gays in the military as a subject area because she’s also the go to show on the military for similar reasons.

  108. 108
    Corner Stone says:

    @raven: That previous comment from Jeremy was pure bait and he’s not willing to acknowledge it got rolled out of the way.

  109. 109
    Corner Stone says:

    @Heliopause: Even when I’m free I don’t put Bashir on in the background. He might as well not even have guests, and just read from a daily script.

  110. 110
    👽 Martin says:

    @raven:

    I like MHP’s lisp.

    I thought I was the only one. It would break my heart if she lost that. I cannot explain why, but it’s endearing as hell.

  111. 111
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @dan: Wanted to like MHP, but after Chris Hayes tackles debt or fracking or healthcare or unions or any number of interesting topics, I have no patience for 4 hours a week of MHP doing nothing by gender and race.

    What a pity. I find her shows mind-blowing when I can catch them. All you see is identity politics. You seem unaware that she has a PhD in Divinity and often brings theologians on the show. Or when she talks about gender and race she’s talking about class, too. Or that she does segments on stuff I, as a sheltered middle class white person, had never heard of.

  112. 112
    raven says:

    @👽 Martin: She doing better at losing the “sort of and kind of”.!

  113. 113
    Corner Stone says:

    @dan:

    I have no patience for 4 hours a week of MHP doing nothing by gender and race.

    I have to say, I loved your comment in its entirety. Just breathtaking, in the Dr. at the beach house from Seinfeld episode kind of way.

    But MHP does a ton about poverty, and communities and other topics I personally want to hear about. A good bit is gender focused but there’s a reason for that. If you actually watched MHP’s show you’d know what that meant.

  114. 114
    Jeremy says:

    @raven: Not my first time but I didn’t think anything I said was controversial.

  115. 115
    schrodinger's cat says:

    @bemused: Really? I think Tamron can do better.

  116. 116
    Joel says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Yep, and this is why Stewart/Colbert are more effective than pretty much anyone on MSNBC. They’re entertaining. Although Stewart can be a douchebag at times. I’ll give him a pass.

  117. 117
    👽 Martin says:

    @Another Halocene Human: I think the problem with MHP is that she’s right up against Hayes. Hayes is a long run of policy, followed by a long run of policy. Flip them around, and we’d be tired of Hayes instead. It’s just a bit too much to take on a weekend morning.

  118. 118
    grape_crush says:

    I agree with Schultz on most things but find his schtick irritating.

    His radio show was worse, back when I listened to it on occasion.

    Hayes is thoughtful and informative.

    Qualities that don’t translate well into an hour-long primetime slot. Gonna be hard for him to pull off a show that’s not a Maddow clone.

    His weekend morning gig is perfect in that it allowed a good and lengthy examination of the topic at hand.

    Now if MSNBC would only shit-can Reverend Al…

    Be nice to the Reverend, as his heart’s pretty much in the right place.

    Having said that, from a presentation standpoint, I can’t stand to watch him on air. Kinda like Schultz.

    And dropkick Tweety…

    Ain’t gonna happen. MSNBC is too low on the Villager credibility scale already to start kicking off the Villagers that work there.

  119. 119
    Jeremy says:

    @Corner Stone: Well I wasn’t trying to bait anyone.

  120. 120
    Corner Stone says:

    Tweety hits something hard about once or twice a month from what I have been able to determine. And it’s interesting when he does. Those promos he did for MSNBC where he previewed the 2012 election and said roughly, “Why won’t an R prez candidate just come out and say Obama is as much of an American as you or I? What’s wrong with them?”
    That was good shit.
    But, I hate the way he slurps the toes of all his guests, like they are each the best or brightest or most insightful he ever has appear on TV with him. Hate that garbage.

  121. 121
    Mandalay says:

    @askew:

    Part of it is due to the Tawana nonsense

    It wasn’t “nonsense”. Sharpton wrecked a man’s life.

    You can argue that we should move on, and accept Sharpton for who he is now, but what he did was vile.

  122. 122
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Elie: Is he a wild, afro haired, intellectual, revolutionary?

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

  123. 123
    askew says:

    On a random note, does anyone know where to find ratings for MSNBC’s daytime shows vs. other news stations? Newser has nighttime ratings but not daytime. I am curious if The Cycle gets good ratings because I can’t imagine anyone sitting through that show.

  124. 124
    Keith G says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Cream cheese…Mmmmmmmmmm.

  125. 125
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @askew: Holy hell that was annoying because even veterans groups didn’t care or didn’t want the parades and she wouldn’t believe them. When she gets on an issue no amount of logic or reason will dissuade her. She’s like Tweety that way. I remember her having multiple stories throughout 2010 about how Obama was intentionally slow-walking DADT repeal to kill it and how he was going to sell us out no matter how many times people told her she was wrong.

    Well, it was clearly an emotional kind of thing that overruled rationality in both cases, and everyone’s human. It probably wouldn’t be so irritating except for her tendency to treat her show like she’s a junior high teacher, repeating and recapitulating every in broadcast after broadcast. I mean, if I didn’t get news from the internet I would be really rapt but since I do she takes forever to get to the point and then we go to commercial. And I change the channel to Animal Planet. Or CNBC’s American Greed. Now there’s an awesome show.

  126. 126
    Joel says:

    @Mandalay: Yeah. I understand it was a messy time in the city, but Tawana Bawley and Sharpton’s association with the anti-semitic Crown Heights riot makes him an awfully difficult person for me to sympathize with. I say all this recognizing that this very activism is what made him popular in the first place, and why he has a seat at the MSNBC table, regardless of what he has become.

  127. 127
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith G: Were you ever able to determine what string of vile comments got you pied by a commenter the other day?

  128. 128
    catpal says:

    good news. really like Chris Hayes – except when he has on a guest like Ultra-conservative, woman-hating Tim Carney from the propaganda-rightie Washington Times. Why give that ahole a voice – especially after he attacked Tamron Hall – wish we saw More of Tamron – great interviewer.

    I will miss Ed on weeknights – hope he will do more big Labor stories in his new show. I like Alex Wagner, and Joy Reid – give Joy the slot and get rid of the horror of Andrea.

    I like Rachel doing a little news recap at the beginning of her show — but I would like to see all these liberal/progressive newsie people start shouting at Obama — No Cuts to Social Security or Medicare – NO Chained CPI garbage. Raise the Social Security Wage Cap – can we get Anyone to repeat this over and over and over.

  129. 129
    Corner Stone says:

    I love having Rev Al on the Election Night panels. I think that’s the kind of spot he really shines in, IMO.

  130. 130
    Mandalay says:

    @Corner Stone:

    But, I hate the way he slurps the toes of all his guests, like they are each the best or brightest or most insightful he ever has appear on TV with him.

    True, but little different to what Maddow does with Dan Rather, or what Matthews does with whatever village hack he drags on to his show.

    In general, why do these hosts feel the need to be so absurdly respectful?

  131. 131
    Corner Stone says:

    @catpal: *Gasp*

  132. 132
  133. 133
    Tonybrown74 says:

    @nellcote:

    Never forgave Ed Shultz for telling people not to vote in ’10 to protest Obamacare.

    This!

  134. 134
    askew says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Well, it was clearly an emotional kind of thing that overruled rationality in both cases, and everyone’s human. It probably wouldn’t be so irritating except for her tendency to treat her show like she’s a junior high teacher, repeating and recapitulating every in broadcast after broadcast. I mean, if I didn’t get news from the internet I would be really rapt but since I do she takes forever to get to the point and then we go to commercial. And I change the channel to Animal Planet. Or CNBC’s American Greed. Now there’s an awesome show.

    That and her inability to learn from her mistakes or truly apologizing for pushing this nonsense on her audience.

  135. 135
    hitchhiker says:

    @nellcote:

    Me neither. I remember getting so angry, hearing him declare that he was just going to stay home for the midterms if the president wasn’t going to do what Ed Schultz wanted. And telling his listeners to stay home, too.

    Who knows if it actually had any impact, but it sure as hell didn’t help.

    The main problem with Ed is that he’s not that bright; I think his heart is in the right place a lot of the time, but he simply does not track what he’s hearing in real time. I’ve heard him take calls on the radio show and just flat miss what the person was saying, over and over. He needs writers in order to make sense, and that’s just not a good quality in a live television show.

    If he’s got an idea for how to bring focus to rural and labor issues, and MSNBC is going to help make that happen, it might be the best way to use his particular skill set.

  136. 136
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Mandalay: Reasonable people can disagree on Tawana Bradley.

    She was raped and battered and left outside covered in filth. She thought she recognized her attackers. Given that one of the accused committed suicide, I find it rather unlikely that she was wrong.

    At any rate, despite what you read on vdare, most of the facts of the case are not in dispute except for the identity of her attackers. She accused at least one very powerful person of rape and sure enough that swung back on her. To this day she maintains she was telling the truth. Sharpton did nothing wrong. Unless you think the proper response to powerful people doing terrible things is to piss your pants and make a sign of the cross. See: Jimmy Savile case.

  137. 137
    raven says:

    @hitchhiker: Too many head shots playin QB.

  138. 138
    👽 Martin says:

    @Mandalay:

    In general, why do these hosts feel the need to be so absurdly respectful?

    Because otherwise they end up like ‘Better Know a District’ where it was impossible for Colbert to book anyone. It’s not like people get paid to be guests and get hammered by an interviewer. They do the show for their own personal gain.

  139. 139
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Jeremy: Lemme taste yer sweet O-tears, Obot.

  140. 140
    shortstop says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    What a pity. I find her shows mind-blowing when I can catch them. All you see is identity politics. You seem unaware that she has a PhD in Divinity and often brings theologians on the show. Or when she talks about gender and race she’s talking about class, too. Or that she does segments on stuff I, as a sheltered middle class white person, had never heard of.

    This.

    @Another Halocene Human:

    I mean, if I didn’t get news from the internet I would be really rapt but since I do she takes forever to get to the point and then we go to commercial.

    This again. Am I misremembering or did she used to get to the fucking point faster? These ten-minute opening segments delivered in excruciating slowness are killing me. I still think she’s great (and nowhere near as bad as O’Donnell on poky exposition), but sister, please, pick up the pace.

  141. 141
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @👽 Martin: Agreed. I really won’t watch both, just pick one or the other.

  142. 142
    Corner Stone says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    most of the facts of the case are not in dispute except for the identity of her attackers

    Hmmm…

  143. 143
    👽 Martin says:

    Ok, the problem everyone is dancing around her is that it’s too much content. You cannot produce 4 hours of programming on 24 hours of events and do it on the fly. You cannot. You need to either cover things superficially because you have no time to do research and reporting or you need to fill with interviews that require little more than some appropriate questions and put the burden to produce content on the interviewee, or let the show before yours do the heavy lifting on a topic and then just rehash it.

    Good content takes time and effort. A LOT of time and effort. Either you need to pay for that effort or you need to give them the time to do it. That’s why the weekend shows work better than the nightly. They’ve got 40 hours to produce 2 (and even there they fill content with panels) rather than 4 hours to produce 1. That’s all the difference in the world. That’s why Fox sucks, it’s why CNN sucks. Filling a day with news is impossible to do well. It’s as simple as that.

  144. 144
    Mandalay says:

    @Another Halocene Human:

    Reasonable people can disagree on Tawana Bradley.

    She was raped and battered and left outside covered in filth. She thought she recognized her attackers. Given that one of the accused committed suicide, I find it rather unlikely that she was wrong.

    Well you certainly wouldn’t qualify as one of those “reasonable people”.

    Regardless, my comment was about what Al Sharpton did.

  145. 145
    PeakVT says:

    @askew: Here’s a press release that provides data only for “the demo.”

    Here’s the primetime cable news ratings by show in an easy to read format.

  146. 146
    catpal says:

    @Corner Stone: what? Some Dems and Obama are wrong sometimes like on Social Security– can’t we get Media to say that out loud — very Loudly this time.

  147. 147
    shortstop says:

    @Corner Stone: I think this is his strongest work — he shows a perspective and a perceptiveness many others on the panel lack.

  148. 148
    raven says:

    GREAT LAST SECOND WIN FOR THE ILLINI!!!!!!

  149. 149
    geg6 says:

    Then, the network would actually have a watchable lineup instead of just the fabulous Rachel and the Not-Rachels.

    I simply couldn’t disagree more with this statement. Rachel is NOT fabulous. She’s okay and not much more than that. I much, much, much, much prefer Reverend Al (Have you ever watched him? He’s one of the better political analysts on MSNBC, hands down, despite his schtick.) And Tweety has gotten better and better over the last year or so. And he’s exactly the kind of Democrat that people who live around here love and listen to.

    Maybe Rachel would be better suited to Up’s time slot and format. Then perhaps Ms. Maddow would have to interact with other very smart people who are experts in their fields and actually have to say something worth listening to, unlike now with her current, extremely boring and self-referential format.

    Rachel’s show is the one I never watch. Ever.

  150. 150
    grape_crush says:

    @hitchhiker:

    If he’s got an idea for how to bring focus to rural and labor issues, and MSNBC is going to help make that happen, it might be the best way to use his particular skill set.

    I think that’s actually the way some of these hosts should go, content-wise. Schultz is stronger when he’s talking about labor and rural issues, Sharpton has civil rights in his wheelhouse, Harris-Perry with women’s concerns, O’Donnell with DC legislative sausage-making.

    Not to pigeonhole anyone, but it’s clear to me that’s where these people’s passion lies.

    As for Hayes, Maddow, and Matthews, they can actually pull off being more of a generalist topically.

  151. 151
    lojasmo says:

    I have never watched MSNBC and I never will. In fairness, neither do I watch Fox, CBS, NBC, or ABC. I also don’t listen to any radio, nor read newspapers, and no magazines either.

    I loathe the media.

  152. 152
    askew says:

    @catpal:

    but I would like to see all these liberal/progressive newsie people start shouting at Obama — No Cuts to Social Security or Medicare – NO Chained CPI garbage. Raise the Social Security Wage Cap – can we get Anyone to repeat this over and over and over.

    They do all the fucking time. They spend more time on rumors of this then in discussing what’s actually happening in government. That’s what irritating.

  153. 153
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @shortstop: .. and he’s witty as hell, which makes him better suited in a second banana / comedian / quip role.

    Huge fan of Al Sharpton, always have been, always will be, fuck the haters.

  154. 154
    shortstop says:

    @lojasmo: So if you were walking down the corridor with Katie Couric, in your pink jacket, with your fingertips pressed together in faux-thoughtful fashion, your response to the infamous question would be “None of them!”

  155. 155
    Jeremy says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Actually I’m not crying I’m laughing at you. The fact that you call people “Obots” shows the lack of maturity and sophistication.

  156. 156
    Heliopause says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Bashir has done the unthinkable; he’s made me switch to Wolf Blitzer if I happen to be in front of the TV at that time of day.

    Echoing you remarks about Chris Matthews, I have to dig deep to find something positive to say, but he at least makes an effort to do a little policy analysis in some of his segments rather than just read off the notes handed to him by Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.

  157. 157
    shortstop says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Right? Thank you.

  158. 158
    Amir Khalid says:

    @lojasmo:
    I see. And by what magical means do you come by the news? The Internet? That too is part of the news media.

  159. 159
    ohsuzanna says:

    Thank god. I feared they were going to give it Ezra Klein….

  160. 160
    askew says:

    @PeakVT:

    Thank you!

    So, in January Alex Wagner got the best ratings in the demo with Bashir’s unknown. She even beat Political Director Chuck Todd’s ratings. Ha! The Cycle’s ratings are about in line with the other shows though. Bummer.

  161. 161
    jl says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I don’t watch them regularly. I don’t see how Sharpton has any less knowledge, overall, that Matthews or Ed. All three are a very mixed bag.

    Tweety has a lot of old school ‘man issues’, which he wears on his sleeve. But some very decent instincts on fairness and justice that he hits hard. Other times Matthews seems half mad (but half mad in the ‘right way’ for an oafish male US television news pundit celebrity)

    Sharpton did whiff a few Q and As in his presidential run big time. But imagine what a show Matthews would have given, if he had decided to run for anything.

  162. 162
    Dr. Squid says:

    Will someone telling us not to vote (because they’re all the same) have more or less credibility if it comes from behind hipster glasses?

  163. 163
    grape_crush says:

    @geg6:

    Maybe Rachel would be better suited to Up’s time slot and format.

    She would be better in that format, absolutely. But she won’t go to that timeslot unless she’s forced to; those times are reserved for second-stringers and the demoted.

  164. 164
    Jeremy says:

    @catpal: The ACA cut 700 billion from medicare and those cuts made medicare stronger and improved quality. There is a difference between cuts to benefits and cuts that streamline medicare and make it more efficient. Fact is one way or the other medicare will need some reforms or automatic benefit cuts will happen once it reaches insolvency.

  165. 165
    SatanicPanic says:

    @lojasmo: I consume no media at all. I don’t even read blogs. What do I win?

  166. 166
    Patricia Kayden says:

    I’m fine with Rev Al. I especially love his guests and his focus on Civil Rights. I’d love Martin Bashir in prime time in one of Chris Matthews’ two slots.

  167. 167
    Corner Stone says:

    @shortstop: Yeah, he drops it on some people. And I especially love it if a hack like Ed Rendell has just finished bloviating about pain and painful decisions. And then Rev Al kinda side eyes him a little and sticks it in and twists.
    Those are my favorite.

  168. 168
    jl says:

    @Dr. Squid:

    When Ed was telling people not to vote, he gained the approximate credibility of George Carlin, at least with me.

  169. 169
    shortstop says:

    @jl:

    Sharpton did whiff a few Q and As in his presidential run big time.

    Sure, and he had some solid connects. Somebody, I forget who, ran a list of debate statements/answers to questions without mentioning who had said them. Sharpton got a much higher rating anonymously than he did in person.

  170. 170
    Robert says:

    MHP covers social news. That does not mean she’s only talking about gender and race. Her coverage of food oases in America from one of her first episodes is fantastic. That was an hour of discussing a serious social issue in America and it was very informative. She shifted a lot of different guests with a lot of different perspectives through the panel during the segments and it was fascinating.

    What MHP does better than a lot of hosts is take time to actually cover a topic from multiple angles. She constantly has conservative guests, activists, professors, lawmakers, even students on her panel to discuss a big issue. Her Super Bowl coverage made me actually want to watch the Super Bowl to see if the various theories for what would happen this year actually played out.

    This doesn’t even get into the depth of her research and exposure of voter suppression acts that has continued beyond the presidential election. I’d rather watch an intelligent commentator discuss real world issues for two hours in the morning than see a host discuss the same politics the same way everyone else does. Perspective is a good thing.

    And I, too, love her lisp. As another person with a speech impediment (not a lisp, I cannot consistently produce the “th” sound at the beginning of words), I’m very happy to have someone that intelligent in a high profile position showing that how you are physically able to talk does not define your intelligence or capabilities.

  171. 171
    Corner Stone says:

    @jl:

    Sharpton did whiff a few Q and As in his presidential run big time.

    Skinny Rev Al is not even close to that person anymore.
    IMO, he’s kicked a lot of ass since then.

  172. 172
    jl says:

    @shortstop: Sharpton is black. He will not get cut the slack given to people like Tweety and Ed wrt to smarts and knowledge. And with the likes of Tweety and Ed, that is a lot of slack to cut, IMHO, at least for TV news pundits.

    Edit: of course all three are far better than the likes Mornin’ Joe and hacks like Brokaw and Blitz.

  173. 173
    geg6 says:

    @Joel:

    I’ll give you Colbert. But Stewart? He can go DIAF. He’s become a Villager pod person who only gives Democrats and liberals a hard time in interviews. John Yoo, OTOH, got a blow job on set where all the world could see it.

  174. 174
    Corner Stone says:

    And, personally, I enjoy David Corn’s work in the overall sense but at this point I could sit down in front of the “David Corn” slot or “Jon Alter” slot or about 10 to 12 other regular guests cycled through MSNBC and say the exact same things they are going to say.
    Same thing for Krystal Ball (how unfortunate) or Alex Wagner when they guest spot on a different MSNBC show for a segment.
    That’s why I like MHP so much right now and will be interested to see what Hayes does with his new slot.

  175. 175
    shortstop says:

    @jl: Yes, that’s pretty much my point throughout the thread.

  176. 176
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Jeremy: I know you are but what am I?

  177. 177
    geg6 says:

    @grape_crush:

    Qualities that don’t translate well into an hour-long primetime slot. Gonna be hard for him to pull off a show that’s not a Maddow clone.

    That would be pretty hard to do unless they completely change Hayes’ format to one where he talks about how smart and awesome and funny he is all the time. Somehow, I can’t see that.

  178. 178
    Corner Stone says:

    @jl: I don’t think Tweety is stupid. I think he’s just trapped.
    Ed, on the other hand, doesn’t strike me as being too quick. He stinks as a live interviewer. Not sure how he has a radio show.

  179. 179
    PeakVT says:

    @askew: That press release is hilarious in a way: there’s almost no mention of how they’re doing compared to Faux. It’s all “we’re better than sucky CNN.” Well, that’s something, I guess. And the use of percentages without providing the underlying numbers for Bashir’s show and others is annoying. Who do they think they’re fooling?

  180. 180
    shortstop says:

    @Corner Stone: David Corn is in a totally different class than Alter. Corn is a bona fide investigative journalist who produces good shit and can talk about it in an accessible way. Alter writes fluff books and delivers bland commentary with no substance to it. I don’t mind him, but it’s apples to oranges.

  181. 181
    jl says:

    @Corner Stone: Personality is very important on media. I am in a minority. I do not give a damn about personality. I don’t give a shit if Hayes is low key and bland (or maybe subtle, if you want to take him that way), I care about the content.

    I’ve seen segments where Ed seemed to work hard at preparing a good background analysis. So he can prepare a good report, or he is one of few in media who seem to know how to use staff research support. But I agree, in live interviews he often comes off like a non too quick blowhard.

  182. 182
    ruemara says:

    @Another Halocene Human: I appreciate your take, I wish it was meant that way by Schultz. It just seems like it is easier to galvanize around the failed President Obama failing you again, rather than educating effectively on the failing of the country by our Congressional corpse and how to get around them. It’s disturbing, because I expect better.

    @Jeremy: It doesn’t matter. Simply by bringing up the issue, you have declared yourself to be in error and to be insulted for daring to disagree.

    I must say, I have criticism of Rachel Maddow, but I do not find her to be all about teh ghey. She brings it up because it is an issue. I also do not find MHP all about race and gender. Frankly, as black woman, I’m charmed to see so many different textures of black hair, variety of shapes, the wonder of having so many educated female commentators and the gustatory pleasure of true discussion. I pity those who can’t help but see it as strictly race and gender. I wish she hit more of those points, I find she spends too much time on education issues, but considering her profession, I think it’s apropos. Some of these shows would be better if they picked a topic and worked it. But, the perception is that these are news shows. They’re not, they’re all pundits. Analysis is a very educated opinion with a respectable, expensive suit. I’d like to see some real news.

  183. 183
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Corner Stone: Ed grew up down the street from me, 10 years earlier. He’s smart enough but just like everyone from around here, he’s hard-headed and pugnacious and would rather fight than persuade. Fighting is quicker and more gratifying.

  184. 184
    IowaOldLady says:

    Once in a while, MHP does something absolutely brilliant. After the Trayvon Martin killing, she interviewed a panel of teenaged AA boys. I thought that was incredible.

    Chris Matthews needs to shut up and let his guests talk.

  185. 185
    geg6 says:

    @grape_crush:

    For me to consider Rachel a second-stringer would be a boost in my eyes. I simply don’t understand why everyone thinks she’s so great. I have yet to see it. Ever. Not on election nights, not on her own show, and not anywhere else I’ve seen or read an interview with her. Mediocre at best.

  186. 186
    David in NY says:

    Don’t watch any of this much, but I have been very impressed with Reverend Al, when his show has coincided with my time on the treadmill. Good clear presentation of important issues.

  187. 187
    jl says:

    @geg6:

    Can you have any specific reasons for that judgment?

  188. 188
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @askew: re: viewers watching Rev. Al and hearing Tawana Brawley. Why is it that the wingers can do NOTHING beyond redemption but we progressives forgive NOTHING? Hell, I’m still reading that Hillary can’t be president because she voted for the Iraq War. Granted, a huge mistake but there’s something to be said for moving on.

  189. 189
    askew says:

    @PeakVT:

    @askew: That press release is hilarious in a way: there’s almost no mention of how they’re doing compared to Faux. It’s all “we’re better than sucky CNN.” Well, that’s something, I guess. And the use of percentages without providing the underlying numbers for Bashir’s show and others is annoying. Who do they think they’re fooling?

    That leads me to believe that Bashir’s ratings aren’t all that great. It is impressive how badly MSNBC is kicking CNN’s butt. However, the entire’s press release pretending that Fox New’s isn’t kicking MSNBC’s butt is hysterical.

    In February though, Wagner’s ratings were #1 in the demo for her time slot, so she even beat Fox News, which is shocking.

  190. 190
    MomSense says:

    @Tonybrown74:

    So back in 2010–MSNBC was owned by GE (now it is owned by GE and COMCAST) and they have an agenda. MSNBC was pushing the disappointment meme about President Obama relentlessly before the midterm election.

    The hosts may have thought that they were demonstrating principled criticism of the President but they were certainly serving the agenda of the MSNBC ownership.

    The criticism of the left from the President will heat up again from MSNBC hosts just in time for the midterms–because the last two years of his term are our last chance to deal with big issues and GE and Comcast are not on the same side of these issues.

  191. 191
    Corner Stone says:

    @shortstop: That wasn’t a comparison.

  192. 192
    Betty Cracker says:

    @geg6: You seem astonished that anyone could possibly think Rachel is great and Reverend Al sucks. There’s a handy phrase for that phenomenon: subjective opinion.

  193. 193
    askew says:

    @MomSense:

    I don’t think the ownership was driving that Obama’s is a disappointment narrative as they were echoing the same talking points I saw on DailyKos and other liberal blogs.

    And the same people are starting up the Obama is as bad as Bush talk again to get us all disappointed going into 2014.

  194. 194
    burnspbesq says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    They’re cowards and herd creatures.

    No, they’re not.

    They work for for-profit corporations. Their bosses have a fiduciary obligation to the shareholders to make money. They make money by earning more in advertising revenue than they incur in cost. They earn advertising revenue by delivering the eyeballs that advertisers want.

    What you are in effect asking them to do is to abandon a business model that works and adopt one that has a long and dismal history of failure (see, e.g., Air America).

    You’re either utterly ignorant of, or obdurately refuse to accept, reality. Which is it?

  195. 195
    shortstop says:

    @Corner Stone: I know, but I don’t even think Corn is predictable in the way that Alter is. I’d have a hard time filling in what he’s going to say — as you say you do — and with most of the rest of the gang I could do it in my sleep. My point, poorly stated, is that because Corn does good original reporting, he usually has something unique to say. Not true of the rest of the regular guest lineup.

  196. 196
    jl says:

    @pamelabrown53:

    Agreed. Tweety on Iraq is at least an even trade for Tawana Brawley.

    But, don’t know if people have noticed, but Sharpton is African-American. He will get cut no slack.

    The very idea that some one like Sharpton would get dinged for lack of smarts or knowledge compared to the average corporate network news hack and drone is hilarious. The idea that he would be compared disfavorably with Tweety wrt to ‘quirks’ is laughable to me.

    Maybe that is my white guilt clouding my judgment. But if anyone wants to wander into Limbaugh territory, go ahead and good luck.

    If Tweety had run for office, there would have been some laff riots when he had to answer questions at a debate, that would give Rev Al a run for the money.

  197. 197
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    Burns Law: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability that Captain Obvious will say something disdainful approaches 1.”

  198. 198
    askew says:

    @pamelabrown53:

    @askew: re: viewers watching Rev. Al and hearing Tawana Brawley. Why is it that the wingers can do NOTHING beyond redemption but we progressives forgive NOTHING? Hell, I’m still reading that Hillary can’t be president because she voted for the Iraq War. Granted, a huge mistake but there’s something to be said for moving on.

    Well, I wouldn’t equate those two issues/people because Al doesn’t hold elective office so I can be more forgiving of his past misdeeds than I can a potential president. However, progressives demand an unreasonable purity from their spokespeople/politicians that no human can meet.

  199. 199
    shortstop says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: I dunno. He frequently does it at comment #2 or 3. I don’t mind disdain; in fact, I kinda like it, but shouldn’t the person employing it be smarter than at least some of the people he’s targeting?

  200. 200
    rikyrah says:

    Going to stick up for Rev. Al. Not only do I find him informative, but he talks about issues that I care about. His consistency about Voter Suppression during the 2012 Election season, as well as what he did for Trayvon Martin’s parents was beyond public service.

    Chris Hayes is a pointy-headed liberal, who can’t relate to the actual base of the Democratic Party.

  201. 201
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @shortstop: That’s known as Inverse Burns Law.

  202. 202
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @MomSense: Well, to be honest, GE has locomotives to sell and Obama has been good to them & a Dem Congress would be good-er.

    Comcast did well under Clinton. I don’t think they’re afraid of Democratic rule because their senators stay bought just fine.

  203. 203
    Mnemosyne says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Because otherwise they end up like ‘Better Know a District’ where it was impossible for Colbert to book anyone.

    Really? My rep seemed pretty happy to be on it, but then he’s a Democrat in a safely blue district in California, so he probably knew he wouldn’t get hammered too hard.

    And it’s hard to disagree that our district is shaped like a flock of diseased, feral parrots. I blame the San Gabriels.

  204. 204
    shortstop says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: What do you do for those? I can’t put Polysporin there, if you know what I mean.

  205. 205
    rikyrah says:

    Martin Bashir also rocks. NOBODY was better at blistering Willard during the last election season than Bashir.

  206. 206
    grape_crush says:

    @geg6:

    I simply don’t understand why everyone thinks she’s so great.

    I used to listen to her radio show. Sure, there was some Maddow-esque goofiness, but when she digs into a topic, you can tell that there’s a pretty agile mind at work. We get a better view of that when we see Maddow covering something like election night where the format differs.

    The primetime lineup, while usually informative, also tends to be about the characters inhabiting it.

  207. 207
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @askew: Does FOX get to count all the patients in the waiting room as viewership figures?

    (Does CNN count the grouchy travelers in the airport terminal?)

    What about the coverage issue others have mentioned?

    What about the hotels that won’t carry MSNBC? Mostly have not had this problem as the union-friendly places have it, and when I’m on a personal trip using AAA guide to book rooms it doesn’t matter because the spousal unit does not believe in tv on vacation.

    Cable without Comedy Central is a fucking ripoff. That is all.

  208. 208
    jl says:

    @burnspbesq: CNN certainly demonstrates that corporation group think is always right, and here is no reason to try to fight against the wisdom of the yes-men crowd

  209. 209
    Sly says:

    I have a sneaking suspicion that any show on Cable News that I’d be willing to watch on a regular basis will not last long; ending either in cancellation or simply morphing into the same intellectually stultifying format as everything else being offered. The only shows on MSNBC I ever found worth watching are Hayes’s and Melissa Harris-Perry’s.

    I would never make the claim that MSNBC is as vapid as Fox or CNN (but, for the record, I will make and stick by the claim, until my dying day, that CNN is more vapid than Fox), but its still pretty vapid. Something billed as “The News” should at least tell me something… you know… new. In every instance, MSNBC has reiterated something I already heard or read elsewhere and, in most cases, simply attached a superficial opinion to it.

    Lawrence O’Donnell occasionally impresses, simply because he (sometimes) brings the wealth of his own actual political experience to bear on events, and to a much greater extent than Matthews or Sharpton; Matthews was a staffer to Speaker O’Neill and, from what he brings to his show, seems to have learned very little from it, while Sharpton is one of the great post-King activists and has a wealth of political experience of a different kind, yet seems to engage in the same kind of tedious pablum as every other pundit.

    So if Hayes brings the same game to prime time, with guests that don’t include “DNC Strategist A” and “GOP Consultant B,” then I’ll watch. If he continues to have panel segments – like the one on Chavez, where he had on Greg Grandin and Sujatha Fernandes – that actually bring people with (gasp!) actual expertise on the issue in question, then it’ll be more than worth watching. And if uses the opportunity to bring people like Ta-Nehisi Coates further into the mainstream, he’ll deserve a friggin’ Congressional Medal of Honor.

    But I’m justifiably pessimistic. Cable News is the detritus of NYC-Beltway media; it exists to recapitulate that culture and its idioms into a larger audience, and anything that does not further that cause is, I fear, doomed to failure.

  210. 210
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @rikyrah: Thank you, rikyrah. Rev. Al understands the poison in the “New and Improved” Jim Crow laws. As an older white woman, he helps me stay focused on the fundamentals. Love Rev. Al.

  211. 211
    Johnnybuck says:

    Can’t say I’m gonna miss Ed very much. His combative, blowhard style works better on the other side of the political perspective where spittle flecked tantrums are the norm. I thought his coverage in Madison, however, was first rate, and his general concern for the working class is admirable. But the “Get yer cellphones America! I wanna know what you’re thinking” was heavy-handed and moronic like something Lou Dobbs used to do. guess that makes me a snob, oh well.

    I kinda like the Reverend Al because of his lack of polish and his commitment to issues that affect the poor. He was great on voter suppression, and generally pretty good on women’s issues and and economic fairness. In a real way, his lack of professional polish, I guess is what makes him appealing to me. He seems more real.

    I don’t think Hayes is right for the 8 o’clock slot, but it’s a start.

  212. 212
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @rikyrah: I think it’s the accent *w*

  213. 213
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @rikyrah: Chris Hayes is a pointy-headed liberal, who can’t relate to the actual base of the Democratic Party.

    High income (2%ers!) people with graduate school (some to multiple doctorates) ARE part of the Democratic base!

    BA-only’s trend GOP, as they reflect petty bourgeois (college completion b/c money but no real scholastic ambitions) caste they come from, but once you go that first year into grad school it flips Dem. Big time.

    GOP marrying the religious right, for example, put scientists firmly in the Democratic camp. Heck, they’ve been subtly or not so subtly shoving the Chopra-NewAge-bullshit stuff out. It used to be if you hated that shit you’d call yourself a conservative, but then conservative became another word for corporate-shill-denialism, pig ignorance, tribalistic hatred, and YECs on youtube.

  214. 214
    MikeJ says:

    @Sly:

    I have a sneaking suspicion that any show on Cable News that I’d be willing to watch on a regular basis will not last long; ending either in cancellation or simply morphing into the same intellectually stultifying format as everything else being offered

    Which was the problem with Air America. Liberals don’t want a liberal Rush Limbaugh. They want the tone of NPR. The problems with that are that there is already an NPR, and it’s much, much harder to do that kind of radio than it is to do bombast.

  215. 215
    Another Halocene Human says:

    Remember when online atheism was dominated by libertarians and MRAs? Not any fucking more, baby. That’s real base-building. Gore & Co used to make me puke with their fakety show of religious piety. Obama is a believer but he doesn’t rub it in your face or insult my intelligence by going Pharisaical on teevee. And the Democratic party in general has won me back by making a place for science, reality-based community, atheists and skeptics. That moment in the DNC where the delegates tried to take dog out of the mission statement or platform wevs it’s called was just beautiful.

  216. 216
    Sly says:

    Can’t say I’m gonna miss Ed very much. His combative, blowhard style works better on the other side of the political perspective where spittle flecked tantrums are the norm. I thought his coverage in Madison, however, was first rate, and his general concern for the working class is admirable.

    To be honest, that so many people find Schultz to be a “blowhard” is probably due to the alien nature of rural liberalism to MSNBCs major audience. Schultz began as a quasi-conservative talk show host that spoke to the interests of the suburban working-class where he grew up (Northern VA).

    Much of his conversion, however, occurred in the Midwest, where liberalism has always been a bit more combative than the coastal varieties, and owed mostly to his coming face to face with rural poverty. For suburbanites, poverty is typically perceived as urban, alien, and the product of some personal failing, and being among the rural poor shattered those assumptions. Once you realize that much of what you believed turned out to be a lie, the drive to destroy those lies in others becomes something of a crusade.

  217. 217
    dan says:

    @lojasmo: You are so above it all. Thanks for stooping to comment on Balloon Juice. Hope you didn’t get the bends.

  218. 218
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Mnemosyne: Nancy Pelosi has put the kabosh on Dems appearing on BKAD.

  219. 219
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @MikeJ: The problems with that are that there is already an NPR, and it’s much, much harder it costs more to do that kind of radio than it is to do bombast.

    fix’d

    Also, too, NPR sucks now.

  220. 220
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I thought I heard here that the fatwa had been lifted.

    Didn’t that kooky West Indian rep from NYC appear during the fall? The one who thought there was slavery in 1890s Brooklyn?

  221. 221
    Another Halocene Human says:

    @geg6: I simply don’t understand why everyone thinks she’s so great. I have yet to see it. Ever.

    Because she’s basically a talking head (never a “real” correspondent like the Silver Fox) who nevertheless does her own research on issues and has broken stories that others didn’t bother with? That’s the big draw for me, not her on-camera persona.

  222. 222
    MikeJ says:

    @Another Halocene Human: Expense is part of it, but talent is too. It’s really, really hard to sound as slick as NPR does.

  223. 223
    dance around in your bones says:

    I find all these varying opinions fascinating. We liberal/lefty types are all over the map.

    I NEVER watch Joey Scar, I like Martin Bashir, hate “The Cycle”, like Rev Al, watch Tweety for his once in a while good moments, skip Ed and switch over to the good-looking Property Brothers on HGTV (sigh), often watch Rachel because she is funny and smart, sometimes watch L O’D but find him a bit intense and insufferable at times, record UP w/Chris Hayes because it is on at a ridiculous time on the lefty coast, occasionally watch MHP.

    Sometimes I get so tired of politics I can’t take it anymore. Then I’m off to House Hunters Int’l or some horrible true crime show, but basically usually hanging out on Balloon Juice where I learn everything I need to learn anyway.

    Thanks, BJ.

  224. 224
    Sly says:

    @MikeJ:

    Which was the problem with Air America. Liberals don’t want a liberal Rush Limbaugh. They want the tone of NPR.

    Coastal liberals don’t want a liberal Rush Limbaugh. It is long passed due that we acknowledge that we aren’t the only liberals in the country.

    Midwestern liberalism, for instance, certainly has its flaws. But it produced Lester Ward (modern American liberalism’s closest thing to a founding father), Abraham Lincoln, both Bob LaFollette’s, Harry Truman, and Barack Obama, among many others.

  225. 225

    @MomSense: This. All day and twice on Sunday.

  226. 226
    Johnnybuck says:

    @Sly:

    the alien nature of rural liberalism to MSNBCs major audience

    And being a rural liberal from the South, I can certainly agree with that statement. And I admire him for his conversion, and championing the causes of Unions, and the working poor, I just found his style off-putting.

  227. 227
    jl says:

    @Sly: Thanks for the perspective. I find O’Donnell to be a blowhard with guests too, often in worse way, than Ed. I’ve seen O’Donnell hold bullying attempts at tendentious smackdowns with guests that I don’t think will convince anyone but the converted, since O’Donnell’s case does not seem to me as slam dunk as he thinks it is.

    So, (edit: don’t think) my problem with Ed’s blowharding is due to his midwestern liberalism (or populism).

    I agree that due to superficial beltway polish, O’Donnell might get away with it when Ed does not.

  228. 228
    MikeJ says:

    @Sly:

    It is long passed due that we acknowledge that we aren’t the only liberals in the country.

    There are more people in King County, WA than in all of Nebraska, and probably three times as many liberals.

    I’m all for trying to convince people in the midwest to become liberals, but stuff that only plays in the sticks and actively drives away consumers in places with better cow/human ratios is never going to be on a national network.

  229. 229
    ricky says:

    I too like the fabulist Rachel. And I would like MSNBC to focus more on the consensual relationships in its Lockdown programming. The lack of such coverage allows perpetuation of unfair stereotyping of inmate intercourse.

  230. 230
    Sly says:

    @Johnnybuck:
    I should probably further differentiate “rural liberalism” into “Midwestern rural liberalism,” which arose from an entirely different political culture than its counterpart in the South.

    At the risk of a gross oversimplification, Midwestern liberalism grew out of Southern liberals and populists that got fed up with their more amiable kin. All of whom were anti-slavery, for instance, but the ones that birthed Midwestern liberalism actually moved to states like Kansas to physically (and often violently) stop its spread.

    Lincoln is probably the best example that everyone knows. Modern depictions of Lincoln often portray him as soft-spoken and contemplative, but compared to his contemporary liberal Republicans in states like Massachusetts and New York, he was a veritable firebrand. The speech that won him the Republican nomination for President in 1860, the Cooper Union Address, was utterly relentless in its condemnation of appeasement to the Slave Power and impressed the hell out of Republicans on the coast.

    Compare it to Barack Obama’s 2007 Jefferson-Jackson Dinner speech in Iowa, and you’ll immediately see what I mean. Same kind of speech, with the same political ramifications for the speaker.

  231. 231
    jl says:

    @ricky: fabulist? Lockdown? Inmate?

  232. 232
    Sly says:

    @MikeJ:
    Then, in all honesty, liberals should simply stop thinking of themselves as less parochial than conservatives. Because if we’re going to simply not listen to someone because they come from a place with a different cow-to-human ratio, then we’re parochial as hell.

  233. 233
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I understand that Schultz’s ratings were pretty good in a tough slot for news– apparently people like Anderson Cooper,– but I imagine he didn’t hit the right demographics, which is too bad, for him, those demos, and Democrats who could always use a little more help reaching them

  234. 234
    MikeJ says:

    @Sly: This has nothing to do with what liberals should do, it has to do with what a broadcast network is going to put on the air. The Democratic party doesn’t own MSNBC.

    I never said it was good or right, but without an audience, it won’t be on the air.

  235. 235
    sylvan says:

    @geg6:

    For me to consider Rachel a second-stringer would be a boost in my eyes. I simply don’t understand why everyone thinks she’s so great

    Are you from the Midwest region, or outside of the US?

    Just curious.

  236. 236
    geg6 says:

    @jl:

    I don’t find her interesting, entertaining, or especially insightful. She finds herself hilarious to the extreme, she’s not a good reporter, she’s not a good interviewer (though she might be if she’d ever actually interview someone who isn’t a talking head like her), and there is nothing original or exciting about her.

    Haven’t much liked her from the very start and I actually tried to watch her the other night and found she’s gotten worse instead of better. They’d be better off if her blog master was the star of the show. He’s ten times better than she is, at least in writing.

  237. 237
    geg6 says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I’m not astonished at all. But she gets all the love (undeservedly, IMHO) and he’s truly insightful and gets none.

    I completely understand subjectivity, which is why I don’t watch her boring shitty show and so many others do.

  238. 238
    sylvan says:

    Anyway, it’s about time that Chris Hayes got promoted.

    Also, Reverend Al is awful.

    He should have been shit-canned ages ago.

  239. 239
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I’d like to propose to this long and perhaps dying thread that we all agree that the worst thing MSNBC does is allow corporate and fracking lobbyist and Simpsons-Bowles fetishist Ed Rendell to present himself as a spokesman for Democrats. At least Joe Scarborough, Michael Steele and Steve Schmidt are ID’d as Republican.

  240. 240
    Johnnybuck says:

    @Sly: Ed is from Norfolk Virginia.

    Thaddeus Stevens was from Pennsylvania, and every bit the liberal firebrand of Abe Lincoln, but owing to his brusque, off putting, and generally malodorous personality was no match for the genial Lincoln.

  241. 241
    geg6 says:

    @sylvan:

    I am from Pittsburgh, PA. Which, depending on who you ask (and who is not a Pittsburgher), is either the East, the Midwest, or Appalachia. IRL, the region is a mixture of all of them.

  242. 242
    Tonybrown74 says:

    @MomSense:

    It’s funny.

    I have never considered myself that politically savvy, since I was born in a country (Trinidad & Tobago) that the populace tends to be more aware of the positions of their political parties (I left when there was two, and now there are more), than the average native (small N) American. So I just thought it was foolish that he was so angry that the President didn’t push for the public option.

    And yes, I was disappointed to. But at least I realized that it was important for the ACA to be passed, despite the disappointment.

    So to hear this supposed “progressive” encourage people to stay home during the 2010 elections, just enraged me. As well as striking me as something incredibly naive and stupid. I will never forgive him for that. Being a pundit, he should have known better.

  243. 243
    grape_crush says:

    @geg6:

    They’d be better off if her blog master was the star of the show. He’s ten times better than she is, at least in writing.

    Benen is good. Before he took the Maddow producer gig, he had a couple of guest spots on the show representing the Washington Monthly. Didn’t do poorly, IIRC.

  244. 244
    Maude says:

    @geg6:
    I thought it was next to Mexico.

  245. 245
    Bruce s says:

    Chris Hayes has the best show on cable – but they won’t let him keep that format in prime time and we’ll have two Rachel Maddow shows back to back. Ed and Rev Al have been the only liberal hosts with a reach beyond usual suspects liberals. This is a crappy move – a waste of Hayes ability to craft a great show that isn’t one more head talking at you, and a waste of Ed’s populist voice in prime time. MSNBC is becoming a caricature of “elite liberals” on prime time (Tweety isn’t prime time on our coast, but in his own weird way he’s part of that problem because he’s lived in the Beltway bubble forever, despite his pretensions. I really hate this move. And Joy Reid should replace Tweety. Or better yet, Scarborough. She could totally manage 3 hours in the morning. Perfect bright & beautiful persona for your first cup of Coffee – “Morning Joy”

  246. 246
    sylvan says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Ed Rendell is a popular player in an important state for Democrats that currently has a Republican governor.

    It could be argued that Ed’s moderate populism is one of the few things that ultimately prevented Pennsyltucky from completely degenerating into a rural-dominated, KKK recruiting shithole.

    That, and he’s a pretty decent football color commentator.

  247. 247
    rikyrah says:

    Tweety runs very cold and very hot.

    When Tweety is on the mark, he’s totally on the mark. ..but that doesn’t happen very often. I wish they’d stop repeating his show.

    I like Ed Schultz, but will never get over that he told folks not to vote in 2010.

    Maddow is like Tweety, except for that she actually is on the mark more often. I can’t stand her Dan Rather worship, and for her, and Chris Hayes – I don’t give two shyts about drones, so all their pontificating on that issue is just that.

    I like Larry O. I only dislike him when he’s fawning over the Clintons or Tom Brokaw.

    MHP tries to be too even-handed. Fuck having all those right-wingers on her show and being pleasant to them in the name of ‘ intellectual discourse’.

  248. 248
    Bruce s says:

    @rikyrah:

    I love Chris Hayes show – mainly because it breaks the tired format and features an intelligent round table over the host – but agreed that Rev Al (and Big Ed) reach beyond the “Ezra Klein” crowd and are unabashed populists who have an effortless ease with a lot of folks that MSNBC hosts largely are out of touch with. Rev Al is a product of the black church. Big Ed could walk into a bar in the Midwest and talk hinting and fishing for an hour before politics even came up. We need more guys like them – not dissing Maddow or Hayes but you don’t learn everything you need to know at Stanford.

  249. 249
    sylvan says:

    @geg6:

    Pittsburgh is generally associated with the Midwest, with a strong influence from Appalachia.

    My experience from working in that area is that they generally despise and distrust anyone further east than Harrisburg.

  250. 250
    Bruce s says:

    Has anyone mentioned how awful that show with the four hosts on MSNBC is. God I hate that one-if only for that insufferable “conservative” woman who is effectively brain dead.

    And while MHP is very likeable and tres smart – her guest roster tends to suck – and yeah too many right wingers who bring zilch. Lawrence O isn’t a great journalist but I love his open contempt for the rightwing and it’s cast of grifters and fools.

  251. 251
    sylvan says:

    @Bruce s:

    that insufferable “conservative” woman who is effectively brain dead

    S.E. Cupp. She’s no worse than popular Balloon Juice blogger E.D. Kain.

  252. 252
    Bruce s says:

    @sylvan:

    Get back to me when this “popular Balloon Juice blogger” is desecrating my sacred TeeVee.

  253. 253
    Fred says:

    OK, I’ll throw onto this pile:
    Chris Mathews has great guests and makes good points but will somebody tell him to STOP interupting EVERYBODY as they try to finish their point? I just want to smack the SOB about ten times a show. I know he has a show to run and can’t let guests chew up all the air time but the man steps on everybody.
    And let me add: I like Ed, Al, Lawrence (Tweety?) but most of all, I love Rachel. I got a thing for girls of the dykey persuasion, nuthin’ kinkey mind you, they just mostly seem like good folks. And let’s face it, the lady is brilliant.

  254. 254
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Bruce s:

    Big Ed could walk into a bar in the Midwest and talk hinting and fishing for an hour

    I’d like to go hinting and fishing – it sounds intriguing.

  255. 255
    Corner Stone says:

    @dance around in your bones:

    I’d like to go hinting and fishing – it sounds intriguing.

    It’s where you hint you know about some dark little secret your companion may have and then you fish around a bit to see if you can get them to spill the beans.
    It’s a fantastic and treasured American pastime.

  256. 256
    sylvan says:

    @Fred:

    but will somebody tell him to STOP interupting EVERYBODY as they try to finish their point?

    He interrupts them because we’ve all heard the talking points.

    Chris tries to get them onto more uncertain ground, which is more conducive to the interview subject fucking up his argument and making a fool of himself.

  257. 257
    Bruce S says:

    @dance around in your bones:

    “hinting and fishing”

    It’s an all-American pastime reserved for those times when you’re posting comments from your iPhone with that shitty little “keyboard.”

    (And not to be confused with hunting and fushing.)

  258. 258
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Corner Stone:

    EVERYBODY has a dark secret. It’s the human condition.

    Hinting and fishing – woo-hoo!

  259. 259
    Jethro Troll says:

    What we really need is more straight white people talking about how much Obama sucks. There’s not enough of that in the media.

  260. 260
    dance around in your bones says:

    @Bruce S:

    I knew what you were trying to say, just found it funny :)

    I love the auto-correct/crappy keyboard mistakes. No worries, mate.

  261. 261
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Jethro Troll: lolrite? And more commenters continually reminding us how unfair it all is for the most powerful man on earth..

  262. 262
    ChrisNYC says:

    I wanted to comment but am fearful of doing so at work — so, I’m in favor of Al Sharpton. I noticed, just recently, that he talks to women, unerringly, the same way he talks to men. Now that I noticed it, it’s striking and I really like him for it.

  263. 263
    rikyrah says:

    Tweety= Chris Matthews

  264. 264
    rikyrah says:

    @Alison:

    Also, I think it’s helpful to have a progressive Christian voice with a platform like that to show that not all religious people are wingnuts, and to offer a version of religion that honors social justice rather than stomps on it.

    that’s a terrific point. I enjoy Rev. Al when he brings those right-wing religious nuts on and just skews them.

  265. 265
    nellcote says:

    I love Bashir. It’s uplifting to me to hear him call goopers assholes and clowns for an hour every day.

  266. 266
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @rikyrah: Do you recall when someone had a Romney hand puppet at a rally and Bashir thought it was actually Romney? Or so he said, which I thought was hilarious.

    He’s very funny and I love that he has no problems going toe to toe with Republican detractors on his show.

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