The Only Thing That Stops a Bad Guy With a Gun

Is a brave teacher:

A 16-year-old was in critical condition Thursday night after a fellow student interrupted a first-period class at Taft Union High School southwest of Bakersfield, confronted him by name and fired a round from a 12-gauge shotgun into his upper body.

The assailant, also 16, tried to shoot a second student and missed before a science teacher was able to talk him down, apparently taking the shotgun as the other students fled from the classroom through a door.

Police officers arrived after the teacher had disarmed the assailant and took the teenager into custody. They seized the shotgun.

The teacher, Ryan Heber, was struck in the head by a pellet but was not seriously injured and refused treatment, authorities said.

“If it weren’t for this teacher and his quick response, we don’t know what would have happened,” Kern County Sheriff Donny Youngblood said.

Other reports I saw said that the kid had pockets full of shells so who knows how many lives Heber saved.

119 replies
  1. 1
    Scott S. says:

    The NRA will now declare Ryan Heber to be America’s Greatest Enemy.

    Maybe the shooter, too, for being a big enough wimp to stop shooting without racking up a more impressive body count.

  2. 2
    c u n d gulag says:

    NRA POV:
    This story sucks.

    Where’s the stand-off?
    Where’s the teacher pulling out a Glock, and blowing the bad guy away?
    Where are the other students, forming themselves into McArdle Brigades, and rushing the shooter?

    BORING! ! !

  3. 3
    HeartlandLiberal says:

    Cue NRA demand that all school districts begin training immediately for all teachers on how to rush a gunman.

    End transmission.

  4. 4
    Feather says:

    Good for Mr. Heber.

  5. 5
    JPL says:

    Joe this morning mentioned that the shooter did not have an assault weapon fortunately.

  6. 6
    the Conster says:


    This is the point – the reason why he didn’t should be explored and incorporated into policy, and if you’re against such a sensible approach, you might be a gun nut.

  7. 7
    KimL says:

    Only one person was shot at Taft because of this teacher’s bravery. A contributing factor is that shotguns aren’t semi-automatic weapons. I’m looking at you, NRA.

  8. 8
    zmulls says:

    @JPL, my reaction exactly. The takeaway should absolutely be that if the student had had an assault rifle, that entire classroom would have been sprayed with bullets. A gun that kills one person at a time gives time for students to get away, for teachers to talk.

    Good friends of mine lost a child in the Newtown massacre. Their son was one of the two who was rushed to the hospital rather than left in the classroom. He was “only” hit three times (some students were hit 11 or more), and there were faint signs of life when he was found, though there was nothing the doctors could do.

    If he had been hit by one bullet, he might have had a chance. The only way legislation runs the gauntlet of opposition is if it centers on a couple very easy-to-understand and widely-accepted concepts. Classifying some weapons as “military grade” — based on the number of rounds they can shoot per second or per minute — and declaring them off-limits to non-military personnel — would be an excellent start.

  9. 9
    Kay says:

    God, we can’t have this. Kids might learn there’s other ways of handling a situation than strutting around with a weapon threatening people. They might actually model that, and we’d sell fewer weapons. Civilization could break out.
    Remember, there are only TWO choices: get shot or shoot someone. PICK ONE. You’re either a victim or an aggressor, and there are only two kinds of people: “good guys” or “bad guys”.

  10. 10
    Wag says:

    This. Again and again, this.

  11. 11
    Comrade Jake says:

    I also read that this school had a security guard who just happened to be on his day off when this happened.

    The NRA cannot fail, it can only be failed.

  12. 12
    Amir Khalid says:

    Not to take anything away from Mr Heber’s bravery, but it was very fortunate that the student could be talked down in the first place. And that he could be persuaded to surrender his weapon. I wouldn’t dare recommend this as the way to handle any armed assailant on a school campus, any more than I would recommend rushing the shooter.

  13. 13


    A contributing factor is that shotguns aren’t semi-automatic weapons.

    Many shotguns are semi-automatic. They are very common.

  14. 14
    weaselone says:

    @Scott S.:

    Nah. This can now be folded into the statistic they include with their “When you need them the police are minutes away” meme. The stat shows the higher number of deaths involved when police stop mass shootings compared to when people at the scene stop the shooter, implying that guns are the solution to mass shootings. Naturally, it ignores the reality that most of those shootings are stopped by individuals without guns and that in many of the cases in which guns are used, it’s by off duty police officers.

  15. 15
    Amir Khalid says:

    @The Other Bob:
    Good God. Why would anyone ever need a semi-automatic shotgun?

  16. 16
    Cassidy says:

    @The Other Bob: Yes, there are many types of SA shotgun. Yes, they are just as easy to buy. The vast majority of shotguns purchased are pump action. SA shotguns are not in common usage.

  17. 17
    Cassidy says:

    @Amir Khalid: Same reason someone needs a 30rnd magazine to go hunting.

  18. 18


    “some students were hit 11 or more.”

    Eleven. Three is horrific in a tiny 1st grader. I have no words for eleven.

  19. 19
    furklempt says:

    I anxiously await cries from gun nuts that what the teacher did was dangerous and the situation a luckily resolved one without the backup of a firearm, while in the same breath whining about the bigots in Portland who won’t talk to the nice men walking around with rifles on their backs,

  20. 20
    weaselone says:

    @The Other Bob:

    How many shotguns couple that semi-automatic capability with the ability to accept high capacity magazines?

  21. 21

    @Amir Khalid: @zmulls:

    Why would anyone ever need a semi-automatic shotgun?

    It seems common to me becuase that is what my Dad has had for 40 years. He was only a once a year deer hunter, but that is the gun he had. It only has a four or five shell capacity, nor is it likely to be suitable for rapid-fire action.

  22. 22
    Ash Can says:

    The main takeaway here is this: The kid had to reload. I don’t care what the terminology is here with automatic, semi-automatic, magazines, rounds, clips, whatever. Restricting gun ownership to firearms that need to be reloaded every few shots is a huge step in the direction of gun safety.

    Or, what zmulls said.

  23. 23
    Cassidy says:

    @weaselone: There aren’t many. The AA-12, but that’s not for sale to civilians, and the Saiga shotguns. I’m sure there’s more, but these are the more popular ones. The AA-12 is the shotgun used by the Terry Crews in The Expendables and by Adrien Brody in Predators ,as well as popularized by the Modern warfare series. The Saiga is a very popular shotgun amongst enthusiasts. It’s based off the AK design but comes in 12 and .410 gauge; the .410 gauge being like a very large bullet. The latter has exploded in popularity and is the current “sexy” shotgun right now since you can buy aftermarket parts and mods that make it an assault rifle with shotgun shells and less range.

    But, due to price and the second market, pump action shotguns blow away SA’s in sales.

  24. 24
    JPL says:

    @zmulls: Even though I am wiping away tears, I am glad that you wrote this. Even though it will take years before changes occur because of stockpiling, it doesn’t mean that we don’t start doing something. The NRA says the last ban didn’t work but why not try. Americans don’t quit, they try again.

  25. 25

    Maybe the simple slogan against high capacity, semi-automatic weapons is:

    “Give our children a chance to run away.”

  26. 26
    Cassidy says:

    The NRA says the last ban didn’t work

    God that pisses me off. The reason it didn’t work is because it was shit legislation that was based off of too much lobbying influence and grandfathered in all the shit it was supposed to ban anyway. You know what gun control worked fucking great? The National Firearms Act. fucking assholes. I hope they all shoot themselves in the face while pretending to play tactical.

  27. 27
    weaselone says:

    Interesting information. Thank you.

  28. 28
    JPL says:

    @Cassidy: Then we need to try again. Because of stockpiling, it took a few years before changes were noticed. Yesterday a paper proved that the ban was working but then Bush came along. The previous president must be so pleased that the bushmaster is still legal.

  29. 29
    flukebucket says:

    If only he had had a belt fed shot gun as the founders intended.

  30. 30
    Cassidy says:

    @JPL: I totally agree. It just pisses me off how disingenuous the argument is. It didn’t work because those assholes did everything they could to make sure it didn’t work. This time we need to ban, regulate, license, insure, and, finally, confiscate. We have the records. We offer a grace period of one year to voluntarily turn in the guns for fair market value and then after that, the ATF is showing up to say you are in illegal possession of banned wepaons. I’m tired of fucking around with these assholes.

  31. 31
    gogol's wife says:


    Whidby will be along in a while to tell us that it’s all about trigger locks, etc. When the NRA opposed legislation to mandate trigger locks too. They screw up the legislation until it’s ineffectual and then complain that it’s ineffectual. A terrorist organization, no two ways about it.

  32. 32
    Yutsano says:

    @Cassidy: But…FREEDUMB! TYRRANY! SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS! Ur just enabling teh One World Order and the UN dictatorship! WOLVERINES!!

  33. 33
    weaselone says:

    Which reminds me. I had previously doubted that there was a compelling reason for a private citizens to own an AR-15. They didn’t seem particularly useful for hunting and shotguns and high caliber handguns seemed more than sufficient for home defense. This convinced me otherwise. Certainly this man’s neighbors would be justified in going out and purchasing an AR-15.

  34. 34
    Tokyokie says:

    @KimL: Well, at least this one wasn’t. But there is this thing out there:

  35. 35
    The Red Pen says:

    I’ve been reading gun-nut articles about how “the 2nd Amendment protects freedom.”

    Funny, all those guns didn’t stop the PATRIOT Act (which the wingnuts claim to opposed). It didn’t stop Obamacare, either, nor did it stop any of the other allegedly terrible encroachments on freedom.

    So far, the only FREEDOM that the 2nd Amendment promises to protect is itself. Apparently, the burning question on the tiny minds of Freepers is: If you don’t own guns, how will you protect yourself when they come for your guns?

  36. 36
    JCT says:


    Remember, there are only TWO choices: get shot or shoot someone. PICK ONE. You’re either a victim or an aggressor, and there are only two kinds of people: “good guys” or “bad guys”.

    Actually, for these pathetic gun nut sorts it’s “sheeple” vs heroes. And the “bad” guys are, strangely enough, all of a dusky hue. What a surprise.

  37. 37
    Face says:

    Isnt “pocket full of shells” a RATM lyric?

  38. 38
    red dog says:

    I’m going to speculate that this was a bullying retaliation. Guns seem to be the answer for a lot of kids who were picked on at some point…very sad.

  39. 39
    Cassidy says:

    @Yutsano: Fuck these motherfuckers. There are days where I wish they would start their little fantasy revolution so that they can be taught what a 25mm HE round thinks of their little, wannabe Navy SEAL rifles. I bet all that tactical mall ninja shit goes out the window when shit start going boom.

  40. 40
    debbie says:

    I’ll take our thugs over their thugs any day. Much more courageous.

  41. 41
    PeakVT says:

    @Face: Rally ’round the family
    with a pocket full of shells

  42. 42
    Schlemizel says:

    It may be everyone knows this story but just in case I want to repeat it here

    One of the NRA’s ‘success’ stories is about a principal in Georgia they credit with using his gun to stop a school shooting.

    The truth is that the shooter had hit his targets, gone outside the school and was sitting under a tree doing nothing when the armed principal approached. The only thing the guy did was to point it at the kid & demand he wait there until the cops showed up, which it appears is what he was doing anyway.

  43. 43
  44. 44
    Yutsano says:

    @Cassidy: You mean like the idjit in Tennessee? I see this getting bloody really fast, and a subculture of illegal guns popping up all over and NOT, curiously, in the inner cities by New Black Panthers.

  45. 45
    Cassidy says:

    @Yutsano: Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. I think the majority of people would turn in their banned weapons if offered a fair price. I would think 80% of MSRP or of the original purchase price if you have a receipt. But for the fanatics, the only way to learn is the hard way and they do need to learn that the laws apply to them, as well, and that the gov’t is a legally elected and provided for entity that does have the power to tell you what you can and cannot do within its borders. If you don’t like it, fucking move and renounce your citizenship.

  46. 46
    Chris says:



    That’s kind of the entire conservative belief – that polite society is all fine and good for the little people but Galtian Ubermenschen are needed to protect it By Any Means Necessary. That belief justifies every abuse of power ever committed by the military, intelligence and police communities – but the Second Amendment fits in there in the sense that it tells Joe Wingnut “you, too, can be one of the Ubermensch Protectors of Society.”

  47. 47
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Cassidy: I ponder that kind of thing every once in a while. Back in the day, I was an FA officer; one battery of 155s and a good forward observer would wipe out places like Waco in a couple of minutes. I don’t think hear idiots realize how minuscule their firepower is compared to what the US government can field.

  48. 48


    How many shotguns couple that semi-automatic capability with the ability to accept high capacity magazines?

    I have no idea. My knowledge of guns is pretty limited to what my dad owned. I assume your answer is “none”. Don’t shotguns pretty much all have internal mags?

  49. 49
    handsmile says:

    On this absurd and distracting “good guy/bad guy” trope (and look how Wayne LaPierre again gets to set the terms of the debate!), there was a GREAT letter-to-the-editor in yesterday’s NYT from a Judy Balaban in Beverly Hills, CA. I’m going to type it up below (no doubt violating some “fair use” rule); it’s rather long, but completely worth your time to read through.

    “Re ‘After Pinpointing Gun Owners, Paper is a Target’ (front page, Jan.7)

    Am I the only person confused by the inconsistent reasoning of America’s most vociferous pro-gun supporters? Since the tragedy of Newtown, Conn., pro-gun activists have insisted that “bad” people with guns would stay away from places where they knew that “good” people, too, had guns. Thus, they advise arming the “good” people.

    But now we learn from the President of the Westchester County Firearms Owners Association that its members are “really upset” with a local newspaper that published public records identifying the names and addresses of the area’s presumably “good” gun owners, and that those identified are “afraid for their families.”

    Huh? if “bad” people with guns will be deterred by knowing which “good” people also have guns, shouldn’t identifying them assure the “good” ones of more safety, not less?

    And speaking of safety, how come those “really upset” gun owners are threatening to destroy the incomes of, and even to shoot, the owners and employees of the offending newspaper? I thought they were supposed to be the “good” people. Maybe that’s the problem in America these days. It’s so hard to tell the “good” people from the “bad” ones.”

    Superb (and trenchant) snark, even by this blog’s lofty standards.

  50. 50
    gogol's wife says:


    Yes, I thought that was an excellent letter.

  51. 51
    Ash Can says:

    @Cassidy: Hell, I’d make it 100% of the purchase price/MSRP. Compensate them in full. Don’t give them any reason to think they’re getting ripped off, or any further reason to resist/resent complying.

  52. 52

    If there’s one thing we can all agree on, it’s that this “teacher” ranks with Hitler, Stalin and Mao as one of the most vilest and most evil psychopaths in history. This guy had a chance to save Democracy™ and Freedom™ by shooting the student with his Li’l Dirty Harry® Super Glock Mauser Heck & Kochler Double-Ought 44 Magnum Bad Guy Waster Ultra Gun™, thereby showing the world that More Guns!® is the only way to stave off the Bad Guyz® when they come calling. But he viciously chose to side with the terrorists by talking the Bad Guy® into willingly giving up his gun instead!

    Now, more and more people are going to ask whether talking to troubled youths packing heat in their high schools might be better than blowing them away like the NRA-made cartoon villians that they truly are. I ask you: Is that justice? Is that the American Way? If there’s any justice in the world, Mr. Heber will choke to death on his hippie-ass tofu-almond shake while smoking weed, tie-dying t-shirts and singing Imagine with all his good-time buddies from the commune, thereby saving one of Wayne La Pierre’s minions the trouble of tracking him down and wasting him.

  53. 53
    Cassidy says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ruby Ridge would have been a smear on the ground if BFV’s had been involved.

    I’ve talked to a couple and they really think they’d become some sort of insurgent/ guerilla living off the land. It’s a weird combination of Mel Gibson from The Patriot and Chuck Norris. They really have bought into their own bullshit.

  54. 54
    Yutsano says:

    @Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.): Well now, how do we expect the gun manufacturers to meet their sales targets (and keep the hedge fund managers in their third yacht in the Hamptons) if they can’t whip up the fear patriotism of real Merikans? It’s downright socialistic ifn ya ask me!

  55. 55
    Ash says:

    I’m dealing with my younger brother (just turned 20 years old today, oy) and his bout of libertarianism where all he can parrot is the “GUNS ARE THE ONLY THING KEEPING TYRANNY OUT OF OUR LIVES” line, and things like this phase him not one bit. I am at a loss.

  56. 56
    Cassidy says:

    @Ash: Sometimes you have to be brutally honest. I asked one guy to be perfectly honest and look at himself in the mirror and tell me whether he really thought he could fight a guerilla war against a heavily armed gov’t. He was overweight and soft, never did sports or outdoor activities, etc. I felt horrible; I don’t belittle overwieght people, but we reached that point in the conversation where I had to ask him when was he going to start developing the skills and abilities to be the warrior he imagines because if shit went down today, he’s got nothing. He changed the subject, but I could tell I struck a nerve.

  57. 57
    Yutsano says:

    @Ash: Your brother is nothing more than a Republican trying to be cool. That’s it. Period. Libertarians are nothing more than that.

  58. 58


    That just sucks. I’ve had Brittany spaniels. They’re such sweet dogs. And, yes, they are hunting dogs, so I can see how that one would be drawn to the rabbits, but, shit, the guy couldn’t be bothered to come outside and run the dog off? Asshole.

  59. 59
    Cassidy says:

    @Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.): I don’t buy for one second that he didn’t recognize the dog. The broadcast states that they had issues before, so he knew what he was doing. He was just “showing them who’s boss”. Fucking prick.

  60. 60
    Maude says:

    Ruby Ridge seemed to become a rallying cry for take up your arms.
    The gun lobby is fighting hard because the polls show that more people want to be safe rather than stockpile weapons and ammunition.

  61. 61
  62. 62
    Chris says:


    In THEORY, the concept doesn’t necessarily offend me. The Afghans and Iraqis have demonstrated that you can give a pretty nice bloody nose to a superior military force if you know what you’re doing.

    Thing is, I don’t think our NRA types are even remotely aware of or ready for the toll that kind of war would take on their communities – and subsequently on them. Nor are they aware of what it takes for such insurgencies to succeed (foreign support is usually a big one – anyone see the NRA being able to get that?)

  63. 63
    wenchacha says:

    @zmulls: My deepest condolences to your friends on the murder of their child. It is unimaginable.

  64. 64
    rikyrah says:

    brave brave teacher

  65. 65
    Chris says:


    It happens. I had my conservative/libertarian phase growing up to. The belief that you have all the answers and that you could totally fend for yourself if everyone else just left you alone goes nicely with the teenage mindset.

    Eventually you grow up and realize that the world doesn’t revolve around you, that you do need other people, and that everyone has to compromise their needs and wants to some extent in order to have the society we need – thus becoming a grown up and a liberal simultaneously. If libertarianism is just a new phase for him, he’ll probably snap out of it eventually too.

  66. 66
    Cassidy says:

    @Chris: True. That’s prettymuch what I meant. A dedicated insurgency made up of people who are used to hardship and fighting is one thing. Our particular brand of moron wouldn’t know what to do if the lights went off for more than a week.

  67. 67
    handsmile says:


    Does your brother have an opinion on, say, the surveillance provisions of the USA Patriot Act, the detention provisions of the NDAA, and the TSA flight restrictions? How did his GUNS keep the “Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave” from enacting those measures (and with the fervid support of many political office-holders who share his ALL-CAPs views)? Or does he maintain that without those GUNS, there would already be the sounds of goose-stepping on the streets?

    (and ftr, I do believe those aspects of the Patriot Act and the NDAA would and do feature in any actual tyrannical regime.)

  68. 68
    rikyrah says:

    Libertarians do not live in the real world. they are every bit the unicorn and pony bunch

  69. 69
    JCT says:

    @Chris: And the best part is that our protector Ubermenschen would shit their pants if faced with any sort of armed force. Even my most conservative friends who have been in Afghanistan/Iraq with the military make fun of these losers and their fantasy view of armed “insurrection”.

    Mind-blowing that they have been driving this gun regulation
    discussion for so long. Is there anything else of such great importance to our day-to-day safety that is completely determined by a lunatic fringe of shouty paranoia-infused nuts?

    @Cassidy: But, but, they have their bug-out bags in the car and MREs in the trunk all ready for when the SHTF !

  70. 70
    lyford says:

    Semi-automatic shotguns are very common. Popular clay target sports — skeet, sporting clays, trap doubles — all require you to hit two targets in rapid succession. Semi-autos are often less expensive than over/unders and have less felt recoil.

    Semi-autos are also popular for hunting. Federal law limits magazine capacity to 3 shells for hunting migratory birds, and many states have magazine capacity restrictions for hunting.

    Semi-auto shotguns have been available to the American public since 1902.

  71. 71
    Tone in DC says:



    One of the Newtown parents needs to kick LaPierre squarely in the junk. After taking a good running start.

  72. 72
    roc says:

    @rikyrah: Libertarians live in the real world. They have to. There’s no time to romanticize the world they advocate if you’re trying to survive it.

  73. 73
    JCT says:

    @Tone in DC: I think the line to perform that “duty” would be long indeed.

    LaPierre is pond scum on a good day. This is a quote from one of his recent fundraising letters – with Obama’s reelection, “you and I lost more on the election battlefield than our nation has lost in any battle, anytime, anywhere.” Hmmm. Wayne was born in 1948. That would make him, umm, 20 years old during a certain war with real battlefields. And in case you’re wondering — NO, he didn’t serve in the military. What a surprise.

  74. 74
    Amir Khalid says:


    Popular clay target sports — skeet, sporting clays, trap doubles — all require you to hit two targets in rapid succession.

    I thought people in the shooting sports used double-barreled shotguns for such events.

  75. 75
    RSA says:

    a science teacher was able to talk him down, apparently taking the shotgun as the other students fled from the classroom through a door.

    There’s obviously a crying need for teachers to undergo training to talk persuasively with students… Oh, wait.

  76. 76
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Amir Khalid: I use a side by side 12 gauge I inherited from a grandfather. When I shoot sporting clays, which isn’t often. Most people do use double barreled guns; it is more traditional.

  77. 77
    f space that says:

    @Amir Khalid: Yes, over and under. I have not seen a pump shotgun used in official competition. I have seen them used by some folks practicing.

  78. 78
    Roger Moore says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Back in the day, I was an FA officer; one battery of 155s and a good forward observer would wipe out places like Waco in a couple of minutes.

    And they are by no means the most formidable firepower available to the US military. One MOAB could do the same thing, and something like an Arc Light pass would do far more. And that’s sticking to conventional weapons.

  79. 79
    lyford says:

    @Amir Khalid: You could use a double, semi-auto or pump. Pumps are no longer common for competitive shooting. Doubles or semi-autos are the most common. Doubles are a bit shorter for the same barrel length, give you the option of having a different choke on each barrel, and are easier to clean. Semi-autos tend to spread the recoil impulse out over a longer time, and many people find them more comfortable to shoot.

    A typical semi-auto shotgun:

  80. 80
    A Ghost To Most says:


    You might refer him to kung-fu monkey’s brilliant quote about the two books that can influence a young man’s life.

  81. 81
    Chris says:


    Yeah, and you know what’s really interesting about that?

    Their confidence that they could TOTALLY take on the entire U.S. military machine with their AR-15s and the power of Heart AND WIN, BITCHES! – as opposed to their shocked refusal to believe that a ragtag bunch of irregular Viets or Hajjis could ever, possibly, in any possible universe, have defeated the U.S. military (the only reason they won is that the liberal scum stabbed it in the back).

  82. 82
    Roger Moore says:


    The Afghans and Iraqis have demonstrated that you can give a pretty nice bloody nose to a superior military force if you know what you’re doing.

    And you’re getting arms and training from a neighbor that wants to keep the superior military force tied down. And you’re willing to accept grossly disproportionate casualties to do it. I’m dubious that either of those applies.

  83. 83

    @The Red Pen:
    “All those guns” didn’t prevent 9/11, either.

  84. 84
    Roger Moore says:

    I think those two are related. They think that the only way the US Government would be going after them is if it’s run by liberal scum, who would totally fold (just like they did in Vietnam) when faced with their manly resistance.

  85. 85
    Cassidy says:

    @Chris: @Roger Moore: That thought had never occurred to me before, but, if accurate, it really does show how far down the rabbit hole the delusion has gone.

  86. 86
    Elizabelle says:

    Tom Levenson: I sent you an email. Cheers.

  87. 87
    Chris says:

    @Roger Moore:

    Right – see second paragraph.

    @Roger Moore:

    I hadn’t thought of that either, but now that you mention it, it totally makes sense.

    Still and all, it’s not much of an argument for self-defense when it’s only good against pansies who fold at the first sign of troubles.

  88. 88
    Enhanced Voting techniques says:

    Good argument for low capacity magazines. It sounds like having to reload got the kid to thinking again.

  89. 89
    GregB says:

    Surely all of these brave new American militants will face the US military front on and not simply shoot and hide like cowards.

    I mean that is what they have been telling me about the Iraqi insurgents for 8 years.

  90. 90
    Baldand59 says:

    @Amir Khalid: The dumbass kid turned over his 2nd Amendment rights by not making them pry the gun from his cold, dead, juvenile fingers. He’s an embarrassment to NRA-governed ‘murrka.

  91. 91
    graves007 says:

    Would this teacher have escalated the situation had he raised his own gun? Lemme guess, the shotgun the assailant used was legally purchased and was available in his home? This to me is a perfect counter to the gun-nut meme of ‘we need guns to protect oursleves from the mentally unstable or evil people’.

    People dont’t have to be evil or mentally unstable to go on a shooting rampage. They just need to be pissed off enough and have a weapon available, legally purchased or not. Since gun availability is not a problem at all in the US, all that’s needed is a little anger.

  92. 92
    Cassidy says:

    Lemme guess, the shotgun the assailant used was legally purchased and was available in his home?

    It’s entirely possible he owned it. The rules governing shotguns and certain rifles differ from handguns and “normal” rifles.

  93. 93
    Eric from Dayton says:

    @gogol’s wife:since this was a kid, a good trigger lock would have prevented this tragedy.

    It’s just bizarre that you are the only person in this thread to mention trigger locks, albeit in a dismissive way, and there are dozens of comments talking about high capacity magazines and semi automatics, though those things are irrelevant here.

    Just goes to prove that the gun control debate usually isn’t about seeking solutions, it is about posturing and scoring political points.

  94. 94
    weaselone says:

    @Eric from Dayton:

    Only if the shotgun wasn’t his to begin with in which case he would have had the key to his own trigger lock. Also, those who mentioned high capacity magazines and semi automatics did so in the context that the shooters lack of them was likely a contributor to the small number of casualties.

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    Herbal Infusion Bagger says:

    @Zapruder F. Mashtots, D.D.S. (Mumphrey, et al.):

    But he viciously chose to side with the terrorists by talking the Bad Guy® into willingly giving up his gun instead!

    He took away the guy’s gun? Obviously this teacher is an anti-second amendment liebrul.

  96. 96
    Cassidy says:

    @Eric from Dayton: Sounds to me you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. You’re also a lying fuck. The comments re: hi-cap magazines tend to lean towards “Thank (whatever) he didn’t have an assault rifle with a hi-cap magazine and wasn’t able to rip off 30+ rnds before he had to stop and reload”. You got naything else to posture about you mendacious pile of shit?

  97. 97
    Herbal Infusion Bagger says:

    Having said all this, can a constitutional lawyer here advise on how to craft gun control/registration law that won’t get eviscerated by the sinister gang of “The Decider” Anthony, “Pious” Tony, “Silent” Clarence, “The Heckler” Sam, and “Two-face” Johnny?

  98. 98
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    How many shotguns couple that semi-automatic capability with the ability to accept high capacity magazines?

    @weaselone: Very, very few, and none that are legal for civilian ownership.

    USPS-12 (no longer made) and the AA-12 (prototype). There may be others. I am not aware of them.

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  100. 100
    Amir Khalid says:

    I think the reports said it was his brother’s shotgun.

  101. 101
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Herbal Infusion Bagger: Just a regular lawyer, but the Court left open some routes toward gun legislation in Heller. Handgun bans are probably out, but I don’t think that limitations on magazine capacity would be struck down automatically.

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    Chris says:


    People dont’t have to be evil or mentally unstable to go on a shooting rampage.

    Yep, and in that you have the root of the whole problem. People who divide the world into a black-and-white “good vs evil” movie simply can’t conceive that the line between a law-abiding gun owner and a madman on a shooting rampage might just be one bad day.

  103. 103
    Ash says:

    @Yutsano: Possibly, from what he writes he hates Republicans more than Democrats though.

    @handsmile: He detests NDAA and the Patriot Act. As much as I wish he was, he’s not just some in-name-only. He’s planning on moving to New Hampshire for the Free State Project. OY.

    It’s been especially hard on my dad since he’s a VA doctor, but most young men go through asshole phases so we’re just keeping our fingers crossed it passes.

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    gogol's wife says:

    @Eric from Dayton:

    I was referring to a longstanding tradition here that whenever people start discussing what can be done to curb the gun insanity in this country, some commenter pops up to start talking about trigger locks, AS IF WE COULDN’T HAVE TRIGGER LOCKS TOO. My point was that the NRA has also opposed mandatory trigger locks — or really anything that could at all impinge on the “rights” of the gun nuts to have whatever weaponry they please.

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    The statement “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is another person with a gun is still true. The teacher at Taft used his mouth gun and word bullets.

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    Cassidy says:

    @ranchandsyrup: I’m sure they don’t need you writing their press releases for them.

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    @Cassidy: awwwww. but i wanna grift scared people.

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    Cassidy says:

    @ranchandsyrup: Now, now there are plenty of other horrible groups of people that lack the coherency or creativity to write a press release.

  109. 109

    @Cassidy: Thanks, I feel better. For westboro: LEVITICUS, BITCHEZ! But only parts of it.

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    Cassidy says:

    @ranchandsyrup: That made my afternoon. lol

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    handsmile says:


    Appreciate your reply; regret the whiff of self-righteousness in my first comment to you.

    I sympathize with the unease you and your family must be grappling with now. I hope your brother will soon grow disillusioned with the sinister aspects of his convictions without harm to himself or others. If he’s a reader, you might wish to consider suggesting he take a look at works by Chris Hedges, Vaclav Havel, or Andrei Sakharov on other forms of resistance.

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    Eric from Dayton says:

    @Cassidy: what failures in your life have made you so angry?

  113. 113
    Cassidy says:

    @Eric from Dayton: Not angry, son. Just tired of disingenuous pricks lying about topics and muddying the water, all the while completely cool with little kids getting holes punched in them, especially when it’s a bunch of tacticool mall ninjas who don’t know a damn thing about firearms. I will say, you’re flippant, smug dismissal of anything regarding gun regulation as posturing makes you a pile of shit not to be taken seriously re: anything.

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    Eric from Dayton says:

    @gogol’s wife: ok understood now

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    Eric from Dayton says:

    @Cassidy: I”m “completely cool with little kids getting holes punched in them” ??? What the fuck?

    How did you get so broken?

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    Cassidy says:

    @Eric from Dayton: I would ask you the same thing. Difference is that my “posturing” and “unseriousness”, according to you, actually wants something done, whereas your positions seem to involve maintaining the status quo or adding in something with a minimal fuss. So, you must be cool with the idea of vaporizing kids or you wouldn’t be so flippant about the notion of gun control.

  117. 117
    newtons.third says:

    The other point is that the SA shotguns are very difficult to control in high frequency fire. A 12 gauge has a much higher recoil than an assault rifle. Difficult to control for someone shooting fast. That is why assault rifles use the ammunition they do.
    The AK-47 uses a 7.62mm by 39mm round. The bullet is 7.62mm in diameter, and the shell casing, that houses the gun powder is 39mm long. The previous battle rifle the Soviets used fired a 7.62mm by 54mm round. More gun powder, faster bullet, more recoil, hard to hold on target in semi or full auto fire.
    Strange as it may seem, but assault rifles use a mid-power round. Usually good to about 400-500 meters, where the higher power rifles, such as the M-1 were good out to over 800 meters. But since the assault rifle bullet, such as the AR-15’s .223 (diameter, in inches) is such high velocity, it hits at closer ranges like a bigger bullet, and it “tumbles” upon impact, causing horrific damage. It does not make a clean hole, therefore, the path that it takes in the body is not a straight line.
    The upshot is that the type of firearm bears directly on how much damage is inflicted. To me, there is no reason that the rounds that an assault rifle fires should be available to the public, as their designed purpose is to kill people.

    Tax each bullet so that emptying a 30 round magazine costs the same as a new car. Require all guns to be registered, buyers must have proof of license to own a firearm, and the seller is legally responsible for the documentation of the buyer. All gunsmiths have to verify license prior to working on a firearm, and the same proof to purchase ammunition. Lastly, have a massive buy back program for those that want to get rid of the firearms.

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    Cassidy says:

    @newtons.third: I’m with ya. Just a quick point, the Saiga is designed to be handled like an assault rifle. It’s a pretty scary weapon system. And the AA-12…heaven forbid that become available to the public. It’s a full auto shotgun that doesn’t kick.

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    Rome Again says:

    Apparently Melainie Hain (who made news a few years ago by open carrying a glock to her daughter’s soccer game) carried everywhere except for where she needed it… in her own home:

    So, the good guy (woman) had a gun and it didn’t save her. Hmmmm!

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