Gun nuts: please stop protecting us. Really. We mean it.

Our self-appointed citizen militia may need more training before we put them in elementary schools:

When Kolton McKinney, 12, unfolded the seat in a Tillamook movie theater Wednesday morning and heard a “plink,” he thought a part of the seat might have fallen out. Then the boy heard friend Levi Crabtree say, “Dude, there’s a gun.” A loaded Beretta 9mm semi-automatic handgun, that is. One bullet in the chamber. The safety off.
But authorities said the dangerous encounter turned out OK in no small part because the two boys did exactly as they should have. They stayed away from the gun and called for a teacher, who in turn called police to Tillamook’s Coliseum Theatre.
The boys were among three busloads of seventh-graders who struck out on a field trip to see “The Hobbit” at the downtown Tillamook theater Wednesday. The field trip was a reward for passing all of their fall classes, said Tillamook schools superintendent Randy Schild.
After McKinney and his friend alerted the teacher, the students were evacuated while Long and his deputies and Tillamook city police searched the theater. Once they found there were no other threats, they let the students back in to enjoy the film.
On Wednesday evening, Gary Quackenbush, 61, turned up at the theater seeking his missing gun, “like it would be in the lost and found with lost eyeglasses and other things,” said Long.
“He has a concealed handgun license,” Long said. “That will be revoked tonight. The law says if you are a danger to yourself or the public, it can be revoked.”A man answering a phone number listed for Quackenbush laughed and told a reporter, “Get a life.”

He meant well so no harm, no foul:

On Thursday, Quackenbush, 61, apologized for the scare and said he was up all night worrying about his missing gun. Police are now holding the pistol as evidence and have revoked Quackenbush’s concealed handgun permit.
Quackenbush said he carried the permit and weapon because of shootings such as the one at Clackamas Town Center and Sandy Hook Elementary School. He’s also a licensed gun dealer, but said he does very little selling and mostly steers buyers to good websites.
“You go into a mall and all of a sudden there is this jackass psycho killing people,” he said. “I’ll stand in front of a kid and take the bullet, but I’m going to take him out, too.”

Tillamook Police Chief Terry Wright said he’s recommending that Tillamook County prosecutors charge Quackenbush with reckless endangerment, a misdemeanor. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said it wouldn’t affect his gun-selling license.
“Wednesday I made sure I was at the movie house before their normal opening only to find that a school group had been there earlier. I had them call the police to inform them I was there to recover my property. Much to my shock the officer had a trail of media on his heels five minutes later. How they got there from Portland baffled me.”

332 replies
  1. 1
    RaflW says:

    The ATF response may be what the law requires, but it shows exactly why state laws need to be beefed up in the individual states. I suspect many are less strong than Oregon, which at least lets the idiot loose his license, and fast.

    But you know the NRA nuts will be all over this revocation of his g*d-given right to endanger kids to “protect” them.

  2. 2

    Forty years ago, Archie Bunker advocating guns for everybody was sit-com humor. Now it’s a brilliant idea.

    Sheesh.

  3. 3
    gogol's wife says:

    Message from the Coalition To Stop Gun Violence:

    “Let’s make history in 2013 by making this New Year a fresh start for America. We CAN end unregulated private sales of firearms with no background checks and no questions asked. We CAN ban the sale of military-style assault weapons and deadly high-capacity ammunition magazines. We CAN build a country where our kids can go to school free from the threat of gun violence.”

  4. 4
    JeremyH says:

    These gun nuts are fools. Fantasists. All of them.

  5. 5
    celticdragonchick says:

    His CCW needs to be pulled. Reckless endangerment might be a stretch, though.

  6. 6
    mapaghimagsik says:

    Silly man. Thanks to all that high powered weaponry he fought for the right to have, the hypothetical bullet would go right through him and into the child.

  7. 7
    japa21 says:

    @celticdragonchick: Not a stretch at all. When that gun fell and hit the floor, it could have fired and hit a kid. Furthermore, what if the kid had picked it up and pulled the trigger? Very thankful the kids did the right thing.

  8. 8
    Kay says:

    @RaflW:

    Is there some way to politely decline this “help” without angering/scaring them further?

    “Look over there! I think those other people are in danger! You better get going” OR,

    “For the love of God, STOP helping me” :)

  9. 9
    gogol's wife says:

    @japa21:

    Yeah, what a stretch. It’s a miracle something bad didn’t happen.

  10. 10
    Culture of Truth says:

    I truly believe a large number of these gun purchasers want to be the hero, they dream about being there when the lone psycho appears, shooting people when all of a sudden our hero appears – he calmly takes down the killer with one shot and the kids and women and the whole community gather round and tearfully thank him for saving them from the bad guy and then he goes on the Today Show and Fox & Friends and maybe even Jay Leno.

  11. 11
    Rafer Janders says:

    I’m coming around to the idea that no one should have a concealed carry permit – if you feel the need to have a gun, carry it openly on your hip, so that everyone around you is forewarned (though not forearmed). If someone around me is carrying a gun, I want to know about it.

  12. 12
    dollared says:

    “How they got here from Portland is beyond me.” Because it is self-evident that people from the big city are corrupt, immoral and incapable of understanding the exigencies of life in “real Amerika” like Tillamook.

  13. 13
    Pococurante says:

    A reminder, and not that it means much for me to point it out here, but CHL carriers as members of society are dramatically far less likely to commit crimes. Apocrypha is not data.

    So far this idiot is being properly handled by the law. Being lost here it seems is that educating kids is always a good thing regardless of topic (e.g. sex, drugs, and yes guns)

    @Rafer Janders: Bad idea. People obviously carrying are more likely to be robbed and have their gun used against them.

  14. 14
    gbear says:

    “You go into a mall and all of a sudden there is this jackass psycho killing people,”

    I wonder how many times this has happened to him? He makes it sound like it’s just something normal that he expects; like it’s someone bumping into you while they’re windowshopping.

    Moron.

  15. 15
    Countme-In says:

    Quackenbush

    Is there some requirement among the 27% that their talent scouts give them funny names before their stupidities hit the headlines?

  16. 16
    Amir Khalid says:

    It says something about the 61-year-old gun owner, Gary Quackenbush, that a pair of 12-year-olds showed more good sense with regard to his gun than he did. And he’s being cast not as a “malevolent criminal”, as he puts it; but as an idiot, which he is.

  17. 17
    dollared says:

    @Pococurante: concealed carriers are far less likely to commit crimes? Data, link, please?

  18. 18
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @Rafer Janders: I prefer open carry too. For one thing, carrying a gun is darned uncomfortable; when I tried various CCW get-ups at the range I was surprised how uncomfortable they all were. nd they’re all designed for men, which didn’t help. And as you said, with open carry everyone knows what’s up.

  19. 19
    Yutsano says:

    @Amir Khalid: How shrill and uncivil of you! Dare I say (gasp!) PARTISAN!!

    (He’s a complete moron. And he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a gun ever again.)

  20. 20
    SenyorDave says:

    Is he applying for a CWS (Concealed while Stupid) permit? I swear to God the movie Idiocracy is pretty much a documentary at this point.

  21. 21
  22. 22
    JCT says:

    A loaded Beretta 9mm semi-automatic handgun, that is. One bullet in the chamber. The safety off.

    Whoa baby, another one of those whackjobs who believe that it’s not worth carrying if the gun isn’t cocked and unlocked. Thank god those kids didn’t even pick it up. Actually, probably the one thing I might agree with is a mandatory lesson for all children regarding what to do when you find a gun. One of the boys who saw it first apparently told his friend not to touch it because you “should always assume a gun is loaded” — an excellent thing to teach kids, actually.

    And I agree — if you want to carry a gun, no concealment allowed. The squealing would commence immediately “but then the bad guys take you out first”. Why, yes – kind of like what would happen with all of the armed guards you want to put in schools you imbeciles.

    Cowards, every last one of them.

    And this ass should lose his CCW immediately.

  23. 23
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @Yutsano: I wish there were some way to not allow complete morons to drive.

  24. 24
    Bostondreams says:

    I love his whining ‘Im the victim here’ bit at the end. ‘Like I’m some criminal’

  25. 25
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @Culture of Truth: not to mention being given a shiny new “man card”

  26. 26
    Linnaeus says:

    Lower the hammer on this guy. We keep hearing about all these laws that aren’t being enforced. So let’s enforce them. Give him the max for anything he can be nailed on.

  27. 27
    👽 Martin says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    Reckless endangerment might be a stretch, though.

    If you have a permit of any kind, losing possession of your gun – even unloaded – should mean revoking your permit. Losing possession of it loaded, with safety off, should carry an additional penalty. Losing it and having it used in the commission of a crime should carry a charge of accessory to commit that crime.

    Look, we can either ban the use of these guns, which I think is a mistake, or put sensible consequences to fucking up. “With great power comes great responsibility.” We don’t have that as part of our gun laws (or as part of our culture, for that matter). Gun owners should be held responsible for anything that happens with that gun until they formally transfer ownership of it. And if they don’t want that responsibility, then they shouldn’t take the power.

  28. 28
    Calouste says:

    @Pococurante: You can stick your NRA talking points where the sun don’t shine. You know which part of the population is far less likely to cause deaths than your so called “responsible” gun owners? People who don’t own guns. Just because the NRA has pushed through laws meaning you can shoot people and not get prosecuted doesn’t mean those people aren’t dead.

  29. 29
    celticdragonchick says:

    @japa21:

    Not a stretch at all. When that gun fell and hit the floor, it could have fired and hit a kid.

    A crime requires intent. Unless he actually meant to lose the weapon that he lawfully had on him (most unfortunately), I don’t see where anything beyond general stupidity and incompetence is involved. That is enough to get his CCW revoked. I am just not seeing the crime in all of this. If he violated a law by bringing the weapon into a place where it is forbidden, I would buy the reckless endangerment charge because he demonstrated intent to have a weapon where it should not have been and then lost it.

  30. 30
    dollared says:

    @Pococurante: Sorry, produce the facts. Self-righteous assertions backing up your right to endanger all of us with your killing device are given no credence.

  31. 31
    low-tech cyclist says:

    And this guy isn’t just your average run-of-the-mill gun nut. He’s a licensed gun dealer. We can only hope that license gets revoked, too.

  32. 32
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    OT. POTUS about to speak on fiscal negs.

  33. 33

    @Mustang Bobby:
    Forty years ago, chuckleheads like this were comfortably confident their culture ruled America. They’ve been nervous for awhile, but then something happened that panicked and infuriated them. We should find out what that was. It might tell us a lot about their culture and its priorities.

  34. 34
    Amir Khalid says:

    Someone refresh my memory, please: what is the gun fondlers’ usual justification for carrying a gun with a round in the chamber and the safety off?

  35. 35
    Suzanne says:

    @Rafer Janders: Concur. I want to have the choice to be around armed gun nuts or not. Here in AZ, supposedly one-third of drivers have a gun in their car. Ever time I get pissed off at someone for cutting me off or not using their turn signal, I have to remind myself that there’s a good chance they’re in that group, and that I really don’t want to get shot today.

  36. 36
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Rosie Outlook: That would depopulate Massachusetts in a hurry.

  37. 37
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    It isn’t “their America” anymore, and they are looking for a way to “take their country back?

  38. 38
    JCT says:

    @Amir Khalid: So they don’t have to waste a second flipping off the safety and chambering a round when the “shit hits the fan” as they like to breathlessly intone.

    Pathetic.

  39. 39
    Pococurante says:

    @Calouste: I have no use for the NRA. I think they are criminally irresponsible.

    Normally it goes without saying people without guns kill other people all the time. But in your case I guess it does need to be said.

    @celticdragonchick: Agreed across the board.

  40. 40
    dollared says:

    @celticdragonchick: No, the crime of reckless endangerment is appropriate here. You don’t need intent to do stupid things that endanger other people, and be put in jail. Ever hear of negligent homocide?

  41. 41
    Chyron HR says:

    @Pococurante:

    Also, too, who are we to decide how many guns you “need” (to accidentally leave behind your seat at the movies)?

  42. 42
    dollared says:

    @Pococurante: Still waiting for proof of your assert*on above. Google it yourself and produce some facts.

  43. 43
    japa21 says:

    @celticdragonchick: The definition of reckless endangerment specifically states that no intent is required.

  44. 44
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    @Culture of Truth: Not to mention the lifetime free supply of beer and pretzels at Barney’s bar and grub.

  45. 45
    👽 Martin says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    A crime requires intent.

    What is a drunk driver’s intent? Did he intend to kill that other motorist? Or did he just operate his car irresponsibly?

    I would argue that anyone with a gun, like a motorist, has a persistent obligation to ensure that the gun is being handled responsibly – that it is stored responsibly, that it is carried responsibly. It should be MUCH harder to achieve that when you carry because you’re taking it out of a static situation (in your house, at your range) and into a dynamic one – but that’s the responsibility you accept by taking your gun out in public. If you don’t want that responsibility, leave it in your gun safe, leave it at the range.

  46. 46
    Ben Lehman says:

    @celticdragonchick: No, a crime doesn’t require intent. Sometimes we use intent as a means of determining what crime to charge you with (as with murder) but you can commit a crime unknowingly.

    http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/163.195 Here’s the relevant statute. Ain’t nothing about intent in there.

    yrs–
    –Ben

  47. 47
    Yutsano says:

    @japa21: It’s sort of implied in the name “reckless endangerment”. There was no intention to actually cause a crime but through recklessness one occurred.

  48. 48
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    This irresponsible idiot has demonstrated that he’s utterly unfit to hold a permit to sell firearms. It should be revoked at once.

  49. 49
    celticdragonchick says:

    @JCT:

    Cowards, every last one of them.

    I am a transgendered woman who has been threatened with physical violence twice in public and have had to flee in fear of my life in one instance. My spouse has been stalked and harassed in her workplace by strangers who turned out to be religious fanatics.

    Am I a coward for not wanting to be the next Gwen Araujo or Angie Zapata that gets beat to death with a fire extinguisher or stabbed, strangled and burned with gasoline?

    I am disabled. I cannot depend on being able to flee and not get caught by the next guy who wants to go “smear the queer” or “tranny bashing”. I often have my 12 year old autistic son with me. Who defends him? That would be me.

    I am getting a CCW. I don’t feel I need your approval for this.

  50. 50
    celticdragonchick says:

    @👽 Martin:

    What is a drunk driver’s intent?

    The person intended to drink and then got behind the wheel using his or her free will.

  51. 51
    Amir Khalid says:

    Also, if your gun falls out of its holster, is it plausible that the safety selector might knock against something and get changed from on to off? That doesn’t sound right to me.

  52. 52
    celticdragonchick says:

    @japa21:

    The definition of reckless endangerment specifically states that no intent is required.

    Thanks for clearing that up. Still not sure I buy the charge in this case though. YMMV, as always.

  53. 53
    Pococurante says:

    @dollared: The first three links returned tell you everything you need to know. Fractions of a percent are instructive results.
    @Chyron HR: How many do you think? I’m going to go with zero.

  54. 54
    dollared says:

    @celticdragonchick: No, you don’t need my approval. You do need to be responsible. You drop your precious loaded, unlocked gun in a public space where children can find it, and you can ask the court to find a foster home for your kid while you serve your 30 days for reckless endangerment.

    Your right to protect yourself does not extend to a right to endanger my child. Period.

  55. 55
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    From the safeties I’ve seen, it seems unlikely.

  56. 56
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    If I may, you are as cretinously stupid as Quackenbush.

    The man has demonstrated, decisively, that he doesn’t think this is a big deal. It’s a huge deal. If he were in the military and did this, he’d be up on charges, right this fucking second.

    He has demonstrated he is not responsible enough to be entrusted with firearms, period. That he still has a license to sell is a crime unto itself.

    With rights come responsibilities. He’s demonstrated beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt that he’s not up to exercising those rights in a responsible manner.

  57. 57
    Maude says:

    @JCT:
    I was thinking the same thing. It would seem natural to pick up the gun.
    We can add it to the list of things you don’t touch.

  58. 58
    celticdragonchick says:

    @dollared:

    You do need to be responsible. You drop your precious loaded, unlocked gun in a public space where children can find it, and you can ask the court to find a foster home for your kid while you serve your 30 days for reckless endangerment.
    Your right to protect yourself does not extend to a right to endanger my child. Period.

    You don’t know a fucking thing about my responsibility, jackass, and you have no goddamned business making comments about my kid. Fuck off.

  59. 59
    ant says:

    I’m not going into any movie theaters that don’t have the guns are banned signs on the front door.

    christ.

    is it really to much to ask that your pistol be secure on your person?

  60. 60

    @mapaghimagsik:
    And they’re freaking out big about that issue, so badly that GOP congressmen can be successfully primaried just for shaking hands with the Democratic president. That certainly didn’t happen under Clinton. If only we can isolate that event that made them explode…

    Seriously, I think this is absolutely pertinent, especially to @Mustang Bobby‘s comment. This is not the only issue conservatives as a movement have gone Nucking Futz over. Gun control issues now fall under the heading of ‘We can’t let The Other win any more victories on any issue, ever.’ All across the board their extremist’s positions have become their mainstream positions – and that happened within the last four years.

  61. 61
    RepubAnon says:

    If driving while texting is a crime, so is accidentally dropping a firearm where there’s a round chambered and the safety is off. In both cases, someone’s carelessness can easily cost the lives of others around them.

    On a side note: there’s apparently a move to remove the restrictions on owning silencers for firearms. Seems as though it’ll help protect shooters from hearing loss – especially young children just learning to shoot.

    Apparently the hearing loss suffered by the folks killed by someone using a silencer-equipped weapon who would have lived with a faster police response (delayed due to fewer people hearing the shots) is not so much of a concern. They’re dead, after all, and we can do nothing for them – the NRA’s job is to arm the (currently) living.

  62. 62
    JasonF says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    A crime requires intent.

    It most certainly does not. A crime generally requires a culpable mental state. For some crimes, that’s intent. For others, it’s recklessness. For still others, it’s simple negligence. And a handful of crimes — drunk driving, for example — are strict liability and don’t require any culpable mental state whatsoever.

  63. 63
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    If I may, you are as cretinously stupid as Quackenbush.

    I don’t give a moments consideration to your notions on my native intelligence. I have been cordial and respectful up to this point. Not any more. Run along now.

  64. 64
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Mr Stagger Lee: Sweet. I assume they allow loaded guns there?

  65. 65
    Rafer Janders says:

    A reminder, and not that it means much for me to point it out here, but CHL carriers as members of society are dramatically far less likely to commit crimes. Apocrypha is not data.

    Well, of course, but that’s because in order to get a concealed carry permit, you have to pass a police background check and cannot have a felony on your record, and most people who apply tend to be older. So all you’re saying is that a population comprised of older non-felons who can pass a background check is less likely to commit crimes than the general population which includes more of the young and felons. That’s blindingly fucking obvious.

  66. 66
    👽 Martin says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    The person intended to drink and then got behind the wheel using his or her free will.

    And Quackenbush intended to take his loaded firearm into the public sphere, and then didn’t maintain responsibility for it. How do you not check to ensure you have it on you every time you move in public?

    Are you arguing that no responsibility came along with the carry permit that he applied for? What’s the point of even having a permit and an application process if there’s no responsibility that goes along with it. As soon as you get there, you move from ‘right’ to ‘privilege’ status, just like with a car.

  67. 67
    mapaghimagsik says:

    It’s all fun and games until someone invokes “the children” and then we can all have nukes.

    I wonder how many children have actually been saved by citizen soldiers, versus the ones that die in firearm treated accidents.

    I think I’m more likely to be shot art by some person with a firearm and rage issues than protect some hypothetical moppet.

  68. 68
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Pococurante:

    People obviously carrying are more likely to be robbed and have their gun used against them.

    Then they shouldn’t be carrying in the first place, should they? If they can’t prevent someone taking away their gun, they shouldn’t carry around a gun.

    Also, too, I thought guns were supposed to be a deterrent to crime…?

  69. 69
    dollared says:

    @celticdragonchick: Proving my point. You brought your kid into this conversation. Perhaps you shouldn’t have a permit because you can’t carry on a discussion -on exactly the terms you raised – without exploding in anger.

  70. 70
    Punchy says:

    Im amazed that in today’s “zero tolerance” world, that the kids who found the gun werent suspended by the school for being within “x” feet of a loaded weapon while on a school function….

  71. 71
    Woodrowfan says:

    He claims his father, who gave him the gun, was there at the death of Mussolini. Mussolini was captured and killed by Communist partisans in the war, not by US troops…

  72. 72
    Paul says:

    @Pococurante:

    I went to your links. It doesn’t assert at all what you are claiming. Heck, some of them are right-wing links and actually look like some of those weird links that the NRA has made up.

    Rachel Maddow made a report about this a few years back. IOW, it almost impossible to use google to research guns and crimes since the NRA has created so many “official” looking websites that in reality are just NRA propraganda.

    Speaking of your assertion; a country like Sweden has much stricter gun control laws than Texas, yet Sweden also has less crime than Texas. And there goes your entire argument…

  73. 73
    Culture of Truth says:

    Obama is speaking. Let the betrayal begin!

  74. 74
    Rafer Janders says:

    “You go into a mall and all of a sudden there is this jackass psycho killing people,”

    Dude, go to a different mall. The mall you’re going to obviously has some issues.

  75. 75
    RSA says:

    “You go into a mall and all of a sudden there is this jackass psycho killing people,” he said. “I’ll stand in front of a kid and take the bullet, but I’m going to take him out, too.”

    “I might let out a Wilhelm scream when I go, but it will still be pretty damn heroic. That’s just how I roll.”

    God save us from people whose understanding of the world around them seems to be derived entirely from escapist TV shows.

  76. 76
    Culture of Truth says:

    dammmit he’s being all cryptic about the great poker failure giveaway

  77. 77
    Pococurante says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    That’s blindingly fucking obvious.

    It is to me. Probably to celticdragonchick. Probably to other folks too smart to get sucked into this, umm, conversation. It was my core fundamental point after all.

    But apparently it has to be spelled out to a lot of folks on this blog. I’d rather see more energy, real energy not armchair chicken hawk blog comments, poured into closing gun show loopholes.

    One of the things we as Americans most have to be ashamed of is our incredible appetite for drugs, and our willingness to be the prime source for guns sold into Mexico.

    That some idiot somewhere proved himself irresponsible is not an argument against concealed carry.

  78. 78
    Culture of Truth says:

    “I’ll stand in front of a kid and take the bullet”

    You try that but the darn kid won’t stand still. Very annoying really.

  79. 79
    Rafer Janders says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    A crime requires intent.

    No, not necessarily. Involuntary manslaughter, for example, does not require intent.

  80. 80
    JCT says:

    @celticdragonchick: I have one too, kiddo. I only carry when I hike alone and I go to the range at least twice a month. Actually went twice this past weekend to help my daughter work on her marksmanship and to teach my niece how to fire and safely handle a Ruger 10/22 rifle. I grew up with guns.

    I have made the decision not to carry in general because I don’t feel that I have sufficient training to not be a danger to others. Regardless, I would never, ever, carry a gun with a round in the chamber and with the safety off.

    I am going to assume that you underwent training to carry your firearm and, as you have stated, you have been violently threatened in the past, thus you have taken the responsibility for your own safety. More than reasonable, of course. In my experience, you are the exception, not the rule when it comes to concealed carry.

    I live in Arizona. Any paranoid nutcase (go check out the arizonashooting web site to find a few) can arm themselves with very powerful firearms and conceal them without any sort of training or permit. In fact, many of them react quite belligerently when anyone suggests that maybe, just maybe folks should get *some* training when they conceal a loaded firearm with a round in the chamber and the safety off as they roam among us. The owner of the local indoor range merely pointed out that she thought a simple course should be required before carrying concealed and was instantly targeted with a boycott for her insufficient support of the holy 2nd Amendment.

    These guys wandering all over my town do not make me feel safe at all.

  81. 81
    celticdragonchick says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Are you arguing that no responsibility came along with the carry permit that he applied for?

    That is a strawman. He already demonstrated incompetence and violated the terms of maintaining his CCW. Unless it was already illegal for him to have brought the weapon into the theatre (and it probably should have been), dropping or losing the weapon is usually not a crime.

    It is damned stupid, though. Whatever the DA decides, I will have no sympathy for this idiot.

  82. 82
    Jay C says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    Forty years ago, chuckleheads like this were comfortably confident their culture ruled America

    Disagree. Forty years ago, gun nuts who would agitate for universal gun deregulation, concealed-carry laws and/or universal armament of the population were more likely to be laughed off as a crackpot fringe. Their enshrinement as the “norm” for what passes for firearms policy in this country is a relatively recent (I would say Reagan-era) phenomenon.

    And BW, I noticed that Mr. Quackenbush also has a somewhat impaired sense of irony: he actually has the gall to fantasize about playing the hero in a “… go into a mall and all of a sudden there is this jackass psycho killing people” scenario ? And this from the guy who carelessly lost a loaded gun (safety off, bullet in chamber) in a theater seat??

    Whotta maroon…..

  83. 83
    Ash Can says:

    @celticdragonchick: All good reasons, but if you live in such a dangerous area, wouldn’t open carry be even more of a deterrent?

    Count me among those who are against concealed carry. You want to protect yourself and your son, and I want the same thing. I want to know who to stay away from, and more importantly who to keep my son away from. Why do your rights trump mine?

  84. 84
    celticdragonchick says:

    @dollared:

    Proving my point. You brought your kid into this conversation. Perhaps you shouldn’t have a permit because you can’t carry on a discussion -on exactly the terms you raised – without exploding in anger.

    Your point was to be offensive and insulting in a personal sense, and you got the reaction you deserved.

    There is nothing more to say to you.

  85. 85
    aimai says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    How on earth do you get to a mental position where a person carrying a dangerous weapon isn’t entirely responsible for all the natural results of losing his weapon? This is not the same as leaving a box on the sidewalk and someone tripping over it. If you have ownership of a dangerous weapon or animal, and you know for a fact that it is dangerous, you have an EXTRA-ORDINARY duty towards the people around you to keep it under control. Ordinary negligence rules ought not to apply. Sure he didn’t “mean to lose it.” So the fuck what? If you can’t excercise ordinary caution–and yes, its ordinary not to go out with a weapon unsecured in your pants pocket–you ought not to own any weapons that you ever take out of your house. People with alzheimers can’t form intent but for that reason we don’t let them have guns/gun permits. What the fuck is this guys excuse?

    aimai

  86. 86
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @aimai:
    It’s all for the children, duh.

  87. 87
    Woodrowfan says:

    There’s a difference between someone like CDC who has had actual death threats, and someone like Quackenbush, who worries because one movie showing out of several million in 2012 had a mass shooting.

  88. 88
    Aet says:

    I’m vaguely frightened by someone who can drop their gun and not notice. Even the smallest common handgun is about two pounds of metal, usually kept in a place that should make you readily aware of its presence. It’s not a wallet or a set of keys.

    His story stinks. It sounds like some kind of dead-drop that got discovered by those meddling teenagers. Bonus skepticism points awarded for his ready knowledge of online gun dealership culture. The fact that he’s a gun dealer makes it even more suspicious: he should have a greater awareness of guns in general, seeing how he sells them.

    And there’s other stuff that’s suspicious. He loses the gun overnight and… goes to bed? When most people misplace a piece of valuable and dangerous property, they make an effort to reclaim it.

  89. 89
    aimai says:

    @Pococurante:

    Its not an argument against concealed carry–its an argument against widespread concealed carry without frequent and mandatory retraining sessions and against gun carry for lunatics who imagine they are the second coming of steven segal or whoever for no good reason.

    Concealed carry, like guns themselves, should be liscenced only to a select few who demonstrate good judgement all the god damned time. Most people can’t do that and most people should be denied a cc permit.

    aimai

  90. 90
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Pococurante:

    That some idiot somewhere proved himself irresponsible is not an argument against concealed carry.

    Absolutely it is. It’s a data point. It’s not the only data point, to be sure, but it’s part of the evidence and part of the argument.

    Concealed carry holders may be less likely to commit violent felonies than the general population, but they are far more likely to use a gun than people who don’t carry guns. And I don’t want any guns around me in public.

  91. 91
    Pococurante says:

    @Paul: Oh for heavens sake.

    From the very first link, menu option Convictions, a list of convictions by year.

    Click this for 2011.

    Quick summary: out of 63,679 total convictions in Texas only 120 were committed by CHL citizens, a percentage of 0.1884%.

  92. 92
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Aet: Exactly. I’m always paranoid about losing my keys in a movie theatre – but a gun? You don’t check before you get up and leave?

    Also I notice he is supposed to be some kind of gun dealer, a thought that does not fill me with confidence.

  93. 93
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Pococurante: what’s the percentage of Texans with a CHL?

  94. 94
    Rafer Janders says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    You don’t know a fucking thing about my responsibility, jackass, and you have no goddamned business making comments about my kid.

    Well look, if you don’t want people to mention your son, you shouldn’t bring him into the conversation as part of the reason why you want to carry a gun in the first place. Fair is fair.

  95. 95
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Pococurante:

    A reminder, and not that it means much for me to point it out here, but CHL carriers as members of society are dramatically far less likely to commit crimes.

    It seems pretty clear from this case and other similar ones that CHL carriers are one stupid mistake away from committing a crime and — even worse — are most likely to commit a crime out of negligence or carelessness than deliberately planning to harm someone.

    The fact that the kids who found the gun were smart enough to call the nearest adult doesn’t absolve the gun owner of responsibility for his stupidity and carelessness.

    @celticdragonchick:

    Really, we’re not even allowed to point out that you say you want to carry a gun to protect yourself and your child but apparently have no problem with the fact that this guy endangered someone else’s kids with his carelessness? You don’t think he should even be prosecuted for leaving a deadly weapon in a public place, for chrissakes.

    As others have said, you can get a ticket or lose your license for texting while driving even if you don’t cause an accident, but in your mind someone who leaves their gun in a movie theater should pay no penalty at all? No harm, no foul?

  96. 96
    Culture of Truth says:

    Also he makes it sound like he’s the one who called the police, which I find highly implausible. And of course he could have called the cops when he got home, but that might have been a bit, um, embarassing.

  97. 97
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    it underscores that most of the folks that want to pack heat are clowns. this would-be hero wouldn’t have even been able to find his gun and shoot back in the event of a theater shooting because it fell out of his damned holster who knows when.

    filing an application to conceal carry should be an automatic red flag.

  98. 98
    celticdragonchick says:

    @aimai:

    How on earth do you get to a mental position where a person carrying a dangerous weapon isn’t entirely responsible for all the natural results of losing his weapon?

    Of course he is responsible. If we are talking about results, then what were the results? Nobody was hurt, and nobody handled the weapon, so it doesn’t seem like anyone was obviously endangered at first…but thinking about it a bit more, the fact that the theatre had to be closed and searched is weighing on my opinion here to justify the reckless endangerment. I am especially troubled that a round was in the chamber.

    That bothers me more then losing the weapon, actually.

    I’m switching on this one. Reckless endangerment it is.

  99. 99
    RepubAnon says:

    @celticdragonchick: Which is why we need to concentrate on firearms safety rather than a flat ban. All I ask of people is that if they’re going to own a private plane, a car, or a gun is that they pass the appropriate skills tests and have a current license before using these dangerous devices. I also ask that the devices themselves be properly maintained, and tracked to avoid having them stolen and sold to people lacking proper training in their use.

    Owning a car is not enough to make personal transportation safe and easy – ask the various people killed by unskilled drivers. (Try a web search on people killed or injured by people that can no longer operate a motor vehicle safely due to various ailments, or who were texting while driving.) Owning a plane doesn’t make you an ace pilot – you need flight school. Why, then, do people feel that owning a gun is enough to make them “safe”?

    I have no problem with people carrying firearms – if they are trained in their proper use, maintain their skills through practice, and if a government agency monitors this to make sure people meet these conditions. Note: just as a standard motor vehicle license doesn’t allow one to drive an 18-wheeler, we’d need advanced licensing requirements for people to own high-capacity magazines, assault weapons, etc. – or for permits to carry concealed weapons.

    Too much bother to maintain your skills? If so, I guess you didn’t feel it was all that important to fly the plane, or drive the car – or carry that firearm.

  100. 100
    Paul says:

    @Pococurante:

    Oh for heavens sake:

    Compared to what? All it says is some percentage of convicted people were CHL’ers. Who cares unless you compare to something. Again, Sweden with tough gun control laws have less crime than the state of Texas with no gun control whatsoever.

  101. 101
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Woodrowfan:

    I actually don’t have a problem with CDC having a gun and being properly licensed to carry it, because in addition to all of the other points, (IIRC) she was in the military and presumably remembers the drills they went through to prevent accidents.

    The problem seems to be that she resents people pointing out that not everyone is capable of concealed carry and that people who are careless when they lose their deadly weapon in public should be penalized even if no injury results.

  102. 102
    MikeJ says:

    How they got there from Portland baffled me.

    I’m guessing state highway 6. They might have stopped off at the old timey lumbercamp that’s now a restaurant about halfway.

  103. 103
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Well look, if you don’t want people to mention your son,

    No. I did not give any reason for a snarky, fucked up remark about having my kid taken away from me.

  104. 104
    Maude says:

    @Aet:
    Oh, yeah, he wasn’t worried about kids, but his gun. upstanding citizen.

  105. 105
    Pococurante says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    Concealed carry holders may be less likely to commit violent felonies than the general population, but they are far more likely to use a gun than people who don’t carry guns. And I don’t want any guns around me in public.

    Seriously, what do you mean by “more likely to use guns”? On a range, of course. In public clearly wrong. People using guns in public, aside from law enforcement, are criminals. They aren’t licensed.

    Look at this way. Without CHL folks are more likely to carry without knowledge or regulation by the state. Think on that…

    @aimai:

    Its not an argument against concealed carry–its an argument against widespread concealed carry without frequent and mandatory retraining sessions and against gun carry for lunatics who imagine they are the second coming of steven segal or whoever for no good reason.

    I can’t speak for other states but in Texas a regular CHL must be fully retested upon expiration. A person can be disqualified from carrying for many reasons, including simply a peace duty officer publicly filing a complaint.

  106. 106
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The problem seems to be that she resents people pointing out that not everyone is capable of concealed carry and that people who are careless when they lose their deadly weapon in public should be penalized even if no injury results.

    I point above that on additional consideration, I have to agree with the reckless endangerment. The round in the chamber is a step too far.

  107. 107
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Mnemosyne: OK. Fair enough..

  108. 108
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I feel no need to be cordial to someone who obviously condones the sort of irresponsible behavior demonstrated by Quackenbush.

    This man should NEVER be entrusted with a firearm again. He’s demonstrated, for the entire world to see, that he does not take that responsibility seriously. The INSTANT he discovered he did not have physical control of his weapon, he should have alerted the authorities, and the theater. No delays. This is serious fucking shit. The fact that he was in that theater with a round chambered and the safety off is further damning evidence that he is utterly unqualified to carry a firearm, concealed or no.

    To do anything less than demand he be stripped of his “right” to be an irresponsible jackoff indicates that YOU do not take this seriously. That YOU are as cretinously stupid in this regard as he is.

    Fuck you and all other gun nut dipshits.

  109. 109
    Mike in NC says:

    So, with just a few hours remaining to 2012, who wants to wager $10,000 Romneybucks that the country won’t make it through the month of January without another mass shooting incident? (I’m sorry to say.)

  110. 110
    celticdragonchick says:

    @RepubAnon:

    Which is why we need to concentrate on firearms safety rather than a flat ban. All I ask of people is that if they’re going to own a private plane, a car, or a gun is that they pass the appropriate skills tests and have a current license before using these dangerous devices. I also ask that the devices themselves be properly maintained, and tracked to avoid having them stolen and sold to people lacking proper training in their use.

    Agree completely.

  111. 111
    Maude says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:
    Can’t you hear him? Does anyone have a flashlight? I lost my gun.

    ETA, what if he was going back to the theater the next day? What if?

  112. 112
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Mike in NC: hell, I’m not sure I’d bet on getting through what’s left of 2012!!!

  113. 113
    Woodrowfan says:

    We’re all missing the big issue, just how bad is the cleaning crew in that theater to miss a gun!>!??! I’m surprised it wasn’t glued to the floor with dried soda!

  114. 114
    ant says:

    The round in the chamber is a step too far.

    pardon my ignorance, but if the gun isn’t chambered, the shooter just has to pull the trigger a 2nd time for the desired effect……. yes?

  115. 115
    japa21 says:

    @Pococurante:

    Seriously, what do you mean by “more likely to use guns”? On a range, of course. In public clearly wrong. People using guns in public, aside from law enforcement, are criminals. They aren’t licensed.

    Then, if they are not going to use them, why carry them at all? And, quite obviously, you are wrong. People have been shot and killed by people with legal permit carrying guns. I don’t know of anyone who has been shot and killed by someone who didn’t have a gun.

  116. 116
    kay says:

    Just FYI, both OH and MI just reduced the training required for reissue of a concealed carry permit. Both bills were backed by the NRA.
    REDUCED. LESS training required.
    It’s just flat-out bullshit that they care about safety.

  117. 117
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    I feel no need to be cordial to someone who obviously condones the sort of irresponsible behavior demonstrated by Quackenbush.

    I take it that reading comprehension was not your strong suit. Not to worry! There are sure to be several adult remedial programs or a community college in your area to help you with that. Best of luck.

    Fuck you and all other gun nut dipshits.

    I will try to pass that along to all the other progressive democratic “gun nuts” I associate with.

  118. 118
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Woodrowfan: “Leave the gun. Take the popcorn.”

  119. 119
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Pococurante:

    Without CHL folks are more likely to carry without knowledge or regulation by the state.

    No, that’s not a given. In most other developed nations, CCW permits are not if ever freely given, and no one carries guns.

  120. 120
    Suzanne says:

    @Pococurante:

    Look at this way. Without CHL folks are more likely to carry without knowledge or regulation by the state. Think on that…

    And then, if they ever pull their weapon, regardless of whether or not they fire it, they can enjoy a nice, long period of time-out to think about what they did, away from polite society.

    Do people steal cars? Yeah, they do. But for some reason, we don’t throw our hands up and say, “Yanno, to hell with this whole licensing and registration thing….”

  121. 121
    Culture of Truth says:

    We’re all missing the even bigger issue. What movie did he see? I must have been pretty damn transfixing to make you forget your gun. I sense a marketing opportunity.

  122. 122
    👽 Martin says:

    And an aside – if arming teachers is supposedly a good idea, or carrying for protection – then why not rely on defensive measures instead. Give teachers a taser and a flashbang. Would be vastly more effective than a gun in a defensive situation where you need to stop a shooter from firing and then subdue them.

    Nobody ever seems to mention that idea.

  123. 123
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    Your lack of a full throated demand to strip this asshole of his gun selling permit is reason enough to doubt your sincerity.

    This man has no business possessing a firearm at any time. He’s demonstrated that conclusively. He treats it like a fucking toy. At first, you weren’t even inclined to cite him for reckless endangerment. THAT ALONE is a condemnation of your mental state regarding firearms. I’ll give you some credit for being persuaded that he did behave in a criminal manner…through his negligence he’s endangered the lives of others. The fact that he blows it off is even more damning.

    This is a black and white thing. There is no middle ground.

  124. 124
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Pococurante:

    Without CHL folks are more likely to carry without knowledge or regulation by the state. Think on that…

    Well, not, that’s not a given at all. In other developed countries, concealed carry permits are not generally available, AND people do not carry guns around at all.

    This is really the old “if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns” — but that’s precisely what I want. I’m not in danger of being shot to death by a criminal. I am in danger of being shot to death by my girlfriend’s jealous ex-husband, or the guy who decides to even up a barfight by pulling out a gun, or some driver who’s angry I’ve cut him off in traffic, or a yahoo with hero fantasies who shoots me by mistake. It’s the law-abiding gun owners who are the most danger to me.

  125. 125
    Pococurante says:

    @Woodrowfan: From the same launch page I provided earlier: statistics for number of licenses request, approved, and denied.

    I understand where you are going and it is a fair question.

    I’m not sure how to derive total number of active licensees and TBH I’m losing interest in this thread. But I figure the percentages are even more favorable supporting CHL as a means to control and regular gun carriers.

    Reasoning: 134,901 licenses were approved 9/2010-8/2011 alone. We can safely assume the number of active licensees is much, much higher. Less than 64,000 total convictions in the same time period, and only 120 were CHL.

    A better real goal would be to put as much attention on car/insurance ownership as we do in Texas on CHL. We’d get a lot more lives saved or otherwise not ruined. But horrific car crashes don’t get 24×7 coverage on cable news so there we are.

  126. 126
    A moocher says:

    @celticdragonchick: Fuck off yourself. You are in the grip of a gun fetish, just like those RBA jackasses at GOS. Your unfortunate personal circumstances do not justify your position.

  127. 127
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @Woodrowfan:
    The weapon was in the folded seat, which makes the idea the weapon was part of a “dead drop”interesting. Pardon my lack of knowledge of gun smuggling, but would three weapon be loaded with the safety of for a drop?

  128. 128
    andy says:

    @Amir Khalid: Safety off/bullet in the chamber, so’s our hero can bring his piece into action in a hurry. The weapon in question is a double action – the first shot requires a long trigger pull to cock the hammer and touch off the cartridge. After that first shot the cycling of the weapon itself cocks the hammer and every subsequent shot only requires a light touch on the trigger as it only has to unlock the spring that drives the firing pin.

    Your gun nut assumes that that first long pull is sufficient safety to carry the piece holstered since of course, as the heros they are, they would never ever do something stupid, like lose it getting out of their seat in a movie theater, etc. It say a lot that he didn’t even notice it was gone until some time later. Stupid stupid bastard…

  129. 129
    Bart says:

    @celticdragonchick: Do you also object to people being stopped for driving drunk?

  130. 130
    Culture of Truth says:

    I’ve actually thought about that, but would be reluctant to give teachers tasers, too. I suppose it’s not completely crazy though.

  131. 131
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @kay: The pilot issue makes a good contrast here. I know some people who fly for a hobby, and they boast about their training, which comes in many, increasing difficulty levels. When a guy I worked with got his instrument rating, he was proud as could be, and made no secret of the challenges, as a way of demonstrating his coolness. Same thing with SCUBA – there are all sorts of specialized courses and ratings, and the avid practitioners are proud of taking the time and passing the tests. Why is it completely the opposite attitude with guns?

  132. 132
    Lojasmo says:

    @Pococurante:

    Your hyperbole is showing. A large majority of murders are done with firearms. A vast majority of suicides are done by firearms. and if you have a firearm in your home, it is more likely to be used against somebody in your home than against an intruder.

  133. 133
    celticdragonchick says:

    @ant:

    pardon my ignorance, but if the gun isn’t chambered, the shooter just has to pull the trigger a 2nd time for the desired effect……. yes?

    Good question, actually.

    If he had a double action revolver and the hammer was on an empty chamber, the weapon would not be able to fire if it was dropped since no bullet is in position. This is a safety practice used by some people. Pulling the trigger would actuate the cylinder and bring the next chamber into position to fire. With a single action revolver (like in cowboy movies), you must pull the hammer back (called “cocking the gun”)with your thumb or your other hand to actuate the cylinder and set the trigger to fire.

    I believe that Quackenbush had an semi automatic pistol here, and that a round had been racked into the chamber. This means that a drop from a sufficient distance could overcome the inertia of the safety and discharge the weapon, and that anybody merely picking it up could have accidentally set it off. That detail is why I changed my mind on this. You never keep a round in the chamber unless you are expecting immediate combat. Period.

  134. 134
    Mnemosyne says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    So if the gun had been loaded with the safety off, but the round not chambered, you would be fine with him getting off scott-free?

    And would you feel the same way if it had been your son who found a loaded gun in a movie theater and not someone else’s kid?

  135. 135
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Same thing with SCUBA – there are all sorts of specialized courses and ratings, and the avid practitioners are proud of taking the time and passing the tests. Why is it completely the opposite attitude with guns?

    Because Hitler

  136. 136
    kay says:

    @👽 Martin:

    MI did. As I read it, the “more weapons in schools” law the NRA wrote includes tasers.

    Jesus, Martin, stop encouraging this insanity :)

  137. 137
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Pococurante: Automobile liability insurance is mandatory in every state.

  138. 138
    Pococurante says:

    @Rafer Janders: (A) You are far more likely to be killed/maimed by an inattentive or drunk driver. (B) Gun ownership is saturating. Pushing it underground, like recreational drug use or abortion, simply repeats the mistake of prohibition at a time when we are loosening it as a concept.

    By all means shame NRA members. I do. Shame the irresponsible. I do.

    But you are automatically assuming a severe problem where none exists: concealed carry citizens are not the problem. The mass murders we saw were not inflicted by the Quackenbushes of the world…

  139. 139
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Culture of Truth: The Hobbit. He said he was bored and twisted in his seat a lot, which is why the safety was off and how the gun fell out…

    This is begging for a gun nut whining “my presciouuusssss” joke…

  140. 140
    Lojasmo says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    If you invoke your child as a reason to CCW, you shouldn’t be surprised when other commentators address it, in the context of an irresponsible CCW carrier who left his fucking gun in a theater.
    YMMV.

  141. 141
    Maude says:

    @kay:
    I think Martin gets bored like I do.
    We are going to end up sitting in a blog corner one of these days because of our behavior in comments.

  142. 142
    opie_jeanne says:

    @Rafer Janders: I don’t want either type of carry around me, open or concealed. I am very uncomfortable in the presence of handguns, even when worn by cops.

    I’ve fired them, shot at cans out in the desert and discovered that I had a decent eye when I was young, but once was enough. I have no desire to own one or be around one.

  143. 143
    opie_jeanne says:

    @dollared: Or incapable of figuring out how a road works.

  144. 144
    👽 Martin says:

    @Culture of Truth: Yeah, I’m not thrilled about it either, because invariably there are going to be stories about flashbang and taser pranks. We’ve got 10,000 schools in California and 300,000 teachers. Invariably, one of them is going to get loose.

    But I bet if we proposed that, the NRA would be against it:

    1) It doesn’t sell more guns, which is the point of having a lobby
    2) The biggest threat against any market is the development of a substitute market. If tasers were viewed as acceptable alternatives to conceal carry, then legislators have an open door to banning conceal carry.

  145. 145
    Woodrowfan says:

    @mapaghimagsik: There are easier ways to drop off a gun that are less likely to be picked up by mistake by someone else….

  146. 146
    Culture of Truth says:

    BAN 48 FPS!!!!

  147. 147
    Maude says:

    @Lojasmo:
    Happy New Year if I don’t see you here before that.

  148. 148
    RSA says:

    @👽 Martin:

    And an aside – if arming teachers is supposedly a good idea, or carrying for protection – then why not rely on defensive measures instead. Give teachers a taser and a flashbang. Would be vastly more effective than a gun in a defensive situation where you need to stop a shooter from firing and then subdue them.

    A further aside: There’s a huge asymmetry between guns and defenses against guns; that is, what most people are talking about when defense comes up is really more weaponry, because things like helmets and bulletproof vests (which are real defensive measures) just don’t seem practical.

  149. 149
    Culture of Truth says:

    This brings new meaning to “Let’s all go to the lobby..”

  150. 150
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Your lack of a full throated demand to strip this asshole of his gun selling permit is reason enough to doubt your sincerity.

    Huh???

    We weren’t even discussing that.

    If he can’t be trusted with his ccw, I don’t see where he can be trusted to sell firearms either. He is incompetent and the BATF should investigate as to whether his permit should be pulled.

  151. 151
    Culture of Truth says:

    Clearly movie theatres should ask “Did You Forget Your Gun?” after the credits roll

  152. 152
    Pococurante says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Yes, and widely ignored. It should be another sticker on the windshield.

    Actually given advances in toll road technology we could collapse all stickers to a single RFID device and metered on roads.

    I support something similar for gun owners: liability insurance on every non-firing/antique gun owned, tied to an RFID trigger lock.

    Prohibition is not the answer, but instead better controls and regulations. That meets my definition anyway of a well-regulated militia.

  153. 153
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @Woodrowfan:
    Sure, like maybe pick a less popular movie.

    “dude, I told you not to drop it off in the Hobbit. Drop it off in Jack Reacher”

  154. 154
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Pococurante:

    (A) You are far more likely to be killed/maimed by an inattentive or drunk driver.

    Well, I live in NYC, so no, I’m not more likely, but so what? Pointing out something else that could kill doesn’t mean that guns can’t also kill me. This isn’t an argument against regulating guns, it’s only an argument for regulating drivers. Which we already do.

    And, you know, in most parts of the country, people need cars to get around. But you don’t need a gun.

    (B) Gun ownership is saturating. Pushing it underground, like recreational drug use or abortion, simply repeats the mistake of prohibition at a time when we are loosening it as a concept.

    Simply untrue, as you can see when you look at every other developed country such as Canada, Australia, Japan, most of Europe, Singapore, etc. etc. People have a normal and natural desire to drink, etc., in a way they simply don’t to fire a gun. Many other countries prohibit gun ownership and yet don’t have a problem with their citizens obeying those laws.

  155. 155
    Dave says:

    you can’t engage the safety on a double action Baretta. The safety is a decocker. If the hammer is down the safety will not engage. Some double action pistols can also be carried in single action — cocked hammer — in those cases the safety can only be engaged when the hammer is cocked. So yes freak out over the bone head who lost his gun and thank FSM that nothing bad happen. But hold the contempt for the safety being in the off position with the hammer down – double action mode.

  156. 156
    RossInDetroit, Rational Subjectivist says:

    Thanks for bringing this up. I posted it on FB, which will annoy the shit out of my gun nut friends. Fine. Bring it on.

  157. 157
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Culture of Truth:
    “Let’s all go to the lobby and get ourselves a Glock”

  158. 158
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Culture of Truth: Only film geeks stick around that long. It should be at the beginning: “Please make sure your cell phone is turned off and your gun’s safety is turned on.”

  159. 159
    trollhattan says:

    @Pococurante:

    The mass murders we saw were not inflicted by the Quackenbushes of the world…

    This clown Quackenbush sounds very much like the William Spenglers of the world.

  160. 160
    Culture of Truth says:

    “Be considerate to the other customers! Turn off your cell phones and take the bullet out of the chamber of your guns.”

  161. 161
    RSA says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    Clearly movie theatres should ask “Did You Forget Your Gun?” after the credits roll

    And before the movie starts, some light-hearted animated figure will tell you, “Please don’t talk during the movie. Please turn off your cell phones. And please make sure that your gun has the safety on and there’s not a bullet in the chamber.”

    ETA: Damn it! Too late.

  162. 162
    dmsilev says:

    @Culture of Truth: Also, the pre-film announcements should be revised to read ‘please silence your cellphones and safety your pistols’.

  163. 163
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    So if the gun had been loaded with the safety off, but the round not chambered, you would be fine with him getting off scott-free?

    We are working with what he did do, and not a counter factual historical supposition.

    Would it have been reckless if the gun was completely unloaded and could not have fired at all? Or if it was a non working replica?

    He dropped a weapon that was loaded and actually had a round in the chamber, meaning it could be set off by accident by anybody coming into contact with it.

    With that, I had to change my opinion and agree that it should be reckless endangerment.

  164. 164
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Pococurante: Not very widely ignored, actually. Police can ask for evidence of insurance at any/every traffic stop along with license/registration. Driving without valid insurance is a violation.

    Why can’t gun owners be required to carry personal liability insurance?

  165. 165
    TerryC says:

    @Rafer Janders: I have this fantasy of millions of non-gun owning Americans, putting bumper stickers on their cars like: “Concealed Weapon Onboard.” What confusion.

  166. 166
    Suzanne says:

    @Pococurante:

    The mass murders we saw were not inflicted by the Quackenbushes of the world…

    But plenty of one-off accidental shootings are committed by paranoid jackasses just like this. Those are also worth stopping.

  167. 167
    Lojasmo says:

    @Pococurante:

    Texas CHL holders account for only 1.2% of the population, so the statistics aren’t really reflective of the whole picture.

    But you don’t care about that.

  168. 168
    Ruckus says:

    I know a man who got his car towed because he left it running(during a snow storm) while he went in the store. Police told him that his car could have been stolen and used in a crime or involved in an accident because he was not in control of it and it was running. He was acting irresponsibly. Man loses a loaded gun in a public place and he has to have intent to harm? What The Fuck?
    And that kid was smarter than how many adults?
    But it’s OK that moron adults can carry and lose a fucking loaded weapon?
    WHAT THE FUCK???
    celticdragonchick, all your personal reasons for carry aside I believe that you were in the military if I recall correctly. And if so you have to admit that handling a weapon with such callousness would have one up on charges in a heartbeat. The military, where guns are locked up and ammo is checked out. The military where guns are fully understood as to what they are, killing tools. And are treated as such.

    Why is it such a horrible thing to do, to treat them in civilian life the same way? Civilian life were I should not have to expect to be shot by people on a regular basis? Hell I didn’t expect that when I was in the military and carried a weapon as I wasn’t in active combat. Civilian life where by reading what you’ve posted, someone has to have intent to harm me before they can be responsible for getting me killed? I’m far more interested in not having to worry about their responsibility but in not allowing them to be able to abdicate it in the first place. Cause either way, responsible or not, I’m still fucking dead.

  169. 169
    Maude says:

    @dmsilev:
    They could use those red circles with the lines through them.

  170. 170
    Woodrowfan says:

    Simply untrue, as you can see when you look at every other developed country such as Canada, Australia, Japan, most of Europe, Singapore, etc. etc. People have a normal and natural desire to drink, etc., in a way they simply don’t to fire a gun. Many other countries prohibit gun ownership and yet don’t have a problem with their citizens obeying those laws.

    Except that the US had an ingrained cultural regard for guns that many of those nations do not. It’s not an exact “it worked there, it’ll work here” match. Which is not to say some prohibitions and greater restrictions would not work and are not worth supporting. It’s just that I suspect a total ban would not work.

  171. 171
    Aet says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    Tazers aren’t magic. They can have serious, if not life-threatening effects. Especially if the target is very young, very old, or has a heart or respiratory condition. They have plenty of other disadvantages too.

    Personally, I’d draw the limit at concentrated pepper spray/mace such as those used by riot police (ones that spray a stream, rather than a mist: think water pistol or ‘silly-string’). Those sprays are short-ranged, typically around 30 feet, or about the length of a classroom. They require almost no training to use, unlike tazers and pistols. They could be made for a fraction of the cost of a police-issue tazer.

  172. 172
    Culture of Truth says:

    There is something nicely circular about bringing a gun to shoot bad guys to a place of escapist fantasy.

  173. 173
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Woodrowfan: +N, for any positive value of N.

  174. 174
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    let’s all go to the gun lobby, let’s all go to the gun lobby

  175. 175
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Suzanne:

    But plenty of one-off accidental shootings are committed by paranoid jackasses just like this. Those are also worth stopping.

    Yep.

  176. 176
    Pococurante says:

    @Pococurante: Typo, insurance on all BUT non-fiting/antique…

  177. 177
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Aet:

    Tazers aren’t magic. They can have serious, if not life-threatening effects. Especially if the target is very young, very old, or has a heart or respiratory condition. They have plenty of other disadvantages too

    Oh, I absolutely agree.

    In any case while school security is indeed a legit issue, the issue of mass shootings goes well beyond schools.

  178. 178
    Face says:

    The fix is to have AMC sell gun holsters between the popcorn and butter stands.

  179. 179

    Here’s something that happened in Nashville last night: a DJ at a nightclub said someone with a handgun threatened him, so he went to his car to get his shotgun and ended up firing it into the air, like how they do on Teevee? ‘cept one of the shots actually hit the glass of the club’s door.

    Fortunately no one was killed. I guess this is why the TNGOP rammed “guns in bars” down our throats 2 years ago, and now is about to ram “guns in parking lots” down our throats. Because WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?!

  180. 180
    burnspbesq says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    That’s why it’s called “reckless endangerment.” It doesn’t require specific intent to cause harm, merely that the defendant has demonstrated indifference to whether the foreseeable harm happens. And losing custody and control of a weapon with the safety off and a round in the chamber fits that definition to a T in my book. Yeah, I’d say six months in a county lockup should be enough to teach this clown what he needs to know.

    How the fuck do you lose track of a loaded gun, anyway?

    ETA: Glad to see you changed your mind on this one.

  181. 181
    Culture of Truth says:

    “Be Kind! Remember to Put On Your Silencer!”

  182. 182
    kay says:

    @Maude:

    IMO, if you hand people a weapon, they use it. I think they can actually lose the skills that they would use to handle conflict. Non- violent means.
    Police in Toledo were so over-using tasers that the city directed that they take anyone they tased to an ER. It was a pain in the neck to take people to the ER, so police taser use dropped dramatically. Police rediscovered their other skills, things like talking to people, calming them down, etc.

  183. 183
    Culture of Truth says:

    Theaters could sell bullets for self defense but the markup would be outrageous.

  184. 184
    👽 Martin says:

    @RSA:

    There’s a huge asymmetry between guns and defenses against guns

    That actually leads to arguments to ban guns. The game theory around guns is similar to that around nukes. Because you cannot adequately defend against a gun (like a nuke), the only alternative is to create a deterrence by putting more guns against the threat, which is what we did with nukes with the policy of mutually assured destruction.

    Now, we’re worried about loose nukes – basically a suicidal group getting a nuke, because deterrence doesn’t work against someone who is suicidal – death is already part of their plan. That’s why deterrence doesn’t work with these spree killers – they tend to commit suicide at the end. There’s nothing to deter. It’s a solution by exhaustion – the killer may gun down a bunch of people carrying at the mall, but if everyone carries, then there will always be some people with guns to take out the shooter. That works great until tactics change, and killers go after schools and churches. Then you need to arm kids and clergy. The end state is absurd, and you haven’t actually prevented the threat, just stopped it somewhat sooner (in theory).

    It’s not that it doesn’t work – it does. MAD worked – no nukes were deployed after ours in WWII, but it merely changed tactics. We kept fighting conventional wars and lots of people kept dying, and it bankrupted one superpower and threatens to bankrupt a second. But in spite of it working, the outcomes aren’t worth the cost, and we learned that 40 years ago. There are cheaper/saner ways to achieve the same result. The gun community hasn’t learned the same lesson.

  185. 185
    Pococurante says:

    @Suzanne: But almost never, truly almost never, by licensed carriers. See previous statistics for Texas, supposedly the most wingnut state on the planet.

    @Gin & Tonic: In the post you respond to I said they/we should. Per gun. Tied to the trigger lock with an rfid device. Or anything similar for that matter.

    Please don’t argue with empty chairs.

    @Lojasmo: How so? On both questions, including the tweenie snark.

  186. 186
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Ruckus:

    I believe that you were in the military if I recall correctly.

    I was in the army around the same time that Cole was.

    And if so you have to admit that handling a weapon with such callousness would have one up on charges in a heartbeat.

    You would almost certainly get an Article 15 (non judicial punishment) for losing a weapon, but the context here is what sticks. In the military you know that somebody will screw up at some point and it’s a dangerous job to begin with. Rifles get lost/stolen, and somebody will leave a round in the chamber after shooting and have to discharge in the barrel at the arms room. This guy went out of his way to bring the weapon to a place where it was not even remotely necessary (if still legal) and left it loaded for others to find…and did not notice he last it for some period of time.

    The mind boggles at the sheer ineptitude.

  187. 187
    shortstop says:

    @celticdragonchick: What we know about your responsibility we’re getting from thi thread. Many of us are not impressed. Before you get your CCW, please educate yourself about the responsibilities of gun ownership,
    because it’s pretty clear you don’t understand them.

  188. 188
    celticdragonchick says:

    @burnspbesq:

    How the fuck do you lose track of a loaded gun, anyway?

    I have been wondering about that as well. I haven’t the faintest idea.

  189. 189
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Culture of Truth: and they’d be HUGE. Have you seen what they call a “small” soda?? I’d go to the counter to buy a small handgun and leave looking like Santa Claus in a Bruce Willis movie.

  190. 190
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Pococurante: but does that means licensed carriers are safer than the general population, or does it reflect careful restrictions on those who currently get a license? You may be dealing with a pre-selected population here….

  191. 191
    Mnemosyne says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    This is what you originally said:

    His CCW needs to be pulled. Reckless endangerment might be a stretch, though.

    The only thing that changed your mind was finding out that there was a bullet in the chamber. So my natural question is, if the gun had been loaded but there was no bullet chambered when the kids found the gun, would you still think that a reckless endangerment charge was overkill?

  192. 192
    johnny aquitard says:

    @RepubAnon:

    If driving while texting is a crime, so is accidentally dropping a firearm where there’s a round chambered and the safety is off.

    I agree, but whether it’s loaded or not is immaterial. It’s a deadly weapon, the person carrying it was doing so for precisely that reason, and the person carrying it damn well better have control of it at all times.

    This dumbass losing his gun and being fucking unaware that he even lost it isn’t just stupid and irresponsible, it doesn’t just scream ‘pull this dumb mutherfuck’s permit’, it damn well ought to be treated as a crime.

    Thank FSM the boys knew to leave it alone. It could have been tragic. But the fact no one got harmed doesn’t mean ‘no harm no foul’.

    We need to demand consequences for guys like this asshole who insisted on carrying a deadly weapon and failed to meet the responsibilities that must go with it.

  193. 193
    celticdragonchick says:

    @shortstop:

    Many of us are not impressed.

    Indeed. I am sure you discussed this issue with these ‘others’ at length and felt an overwhelming need to lecture me about a subject that you no demonstrated expertise in, nor any particular knowledge of what my own experience and qualifications are.

    I will give your proposal the due consideration it deserves.

    You have my sincere gratitude.

  194. 194
    debbie says:

    Kay, has anyone ever introduced legislation detailing the consequences when a concealed carrier wounds an innocent bystander? I think something that makes them think twice before playing Rambo might be useful. Seriously, what protects me from them?

    I can hear Hagen pontificating already…

  195. 195
    Pococurante says:

    @👽 Martin:

    The gun community hasn’t learned the same lesson.

    Be open to surprise. So how does that work exactly?

    Not suggesting you, Martin, are one of them – but in this thread there is simply too much knee-jerk xenophobia.

    Besides immediately attempting outright banning and confiscation, what is a pragmatic plan to get there that works for the USA. Bear in mind when looking at other countries – they don’t have our Constitution.

    Pragmatically I’d suggest it start with an Amendment to the Second Amendment. But again, pragmatically speaking, how do you suggest we get there?

  196. 196

    This song has been in my head since Newtown:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRtd8ArvH_s

    Some lyrics:
    All the gold and the guns in the world couldn’t get you off All the gold and the guns and the girls couldn’t get you off
    All the boys, all the choices in the world

    I remember when we were gambling to win
    Everybody else said better luck next time
    I don’t wanna bend like the bad girls bend I just wanna be your friend, is it ever gonna be enough?

  197. 197
    👽 Martin says:

    @Aet:

    Tazers aren’t magic. They can have serious, if not life-threatening effects. Especially if the target is very young, very old, or has a heart or respiratory condition. They have plenty of other disadvantages too.

    Well, we need to step back and look at this through Maddows ‘non-lethal force’ lens.

    Her argument is that we use things like tasers completely wrong. Instead of using them in lieu of lethal force as they were designed/intended, we use them in lieu of even less lethal actions, such as pepper-spraying a bunch of college students protesting. Her lens is to look at every use of these non-lethal alternatives and ask “Would you draw your gun and shoot in this case?” If the answer is “no”, then you’re using it wrong. As it turns out, we almost never use these things in lieu of lethal force, rather we use them in lieu of even less dangerous/violent actions.

    That’s what I mean by the ‘substitution market’ above. Part of the NRA tactics is to make the case that tasers are ineffective substitutes for guns, and promote them as crowd control devices. But in this case, I’m arguing that they should be used solely as substitutes for lethal force – and in fact, be more effective in the process. They’re unarguably safer than a gun, and a gun in fact isn’t that likely to stop a gunman as we’ve seen. But a flashbang is. And it buys time to move in and use the taser, which is also extremely effective.

  198. 198
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    So my natural question is, if the gun had been loaded but there was no bullet chambered when the kids found the gun, would you still think that a reckless endangerment charge was overkill?

    If there was no ammunition in the gun, then ‘no’. An empty gun is basically a chunk of steel. You would not know that just looking at it, but if it cannot actually fire, then you are not actually in danger. Loaded but no round in the chamber? Ask the DA. I don’t know, but I suppose a tie should favor prosecution. Round in the chamber…yeah, you really set somebody up for a potential fatal accident.

  199. 199
    shortstop says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I am sure you discussed this issue with these ‘others’ at length

    Er, no, Einstein, I read the thread. It’s clear that you have a powerful filter that repels any information or opinion you find distasteful before it can penetrate your consciousness (and what an excellent trait that is in an angry armed person), but really, all those expressions of non-admiration are right here for the reading.

    nor any particular knowledge of what my own experience and qualifications are.

    I don’t know how well you can fire a gun. You’re giving us all lots of reasons to suppose you don’t have the temperament, judgment or knowledge to safely carry one.

  200. 200
    MattR says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    No. I did not give any reason for a snarky, fucked up remark about having my kid taken away from me.

    I found nothing fucked up about a comment pointing out that if you want to have a gun to protect yourself and your child, that is fine. But if are irreponsible in the handling of that gun, you will end up in a situation where you are temporarily unable to care for that child due to incarceration.

  201. 201
    Pococurante says:

    @Woodrowfan: I agree.

    Those that are disapproved or found negligible, that get flagged. Makes it harder to slip under the radar after that.

    Frankly I think all gun owners should be tested and registered just like CHL.

  202. 202
    dollared says:

    @Pococurante: This is NRA bullsh*t. For 220 years the second Amendment did *not* prohibit aggressive gun regulation, including strict licensing limits that amounted to a virtual handgun ban.

    The current bullsh reading of the 2d Amendment is a Scalia creation. And Scalia is 77. That reading could be reversed in a year. Especially if government can document urgent governmental need to reverse the current policy.

    Second, Australia retired 2/3 of its gun population in the wild. And gun deaths dropped dramatically. http://www.slate.com/blogs/cri.....ide_a.html

    It can be done. It can be legal.

  203. 203
    Peregrinus says:

    @ranchandsyrup:

    Funny you mention that; that’s what I titled a post several months ago on why I thought no gun control would ever happen. Metric is an awesome band.

  204. 204
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Here’s the thing:

    If RESPONSIBLE gun owners are the norm, why aren’t they screaming for this guy to lose his CCP (already in the works) and demanding that his gun selling permit be revoked?

    He has demonstrated, in stark terms, that he’s not to be trusted with firearms. He treats them far too lightly.

    Frankly, the “gun drop” theory that someone mentioned earlier isn’t that far out of the question here, as he admits he didn’t know that the kids would be there for the special showing.

    RESPONSIBLE gun owners should not rally around this guy, they should be in the forefront of those demanding action against him for his utterly irresponsible actions.

  205. 205
    Pococurante says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    You would not know that just looking at it…

    Mild qualification: actually with the current generation of guns one does know simply by looking at it. The Springfield XDx are a great example of impressive safety controls to prevent (eliminate actually) accidental discharge, or to repeat a previous wingnut comment above “the William Spenglers”.

  206. 206

    @Peregrinus: Nice! I do the song title thingy too at our blawg. Liked your post.

  207. 207
    MattR says:

    @Woodrowfan:

    but does that means licensed carriers are safer than the general population, or does it reflect careful restrictions on those who currently get a license? You may be dealing with a pre-selected population here…

    Sounds like the stat that more than 90% of all shark attacks occur close to shore (which of course is where more than 90% of humans in the ocean spend their time)

  208. 208
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Pococurante:

    Register all guns.

    License all gun owners.

    But you guys aren’t even willing to go along with these very basic, common-sense ideas, so what’s the point of pretending?

  209. 209
    celticdragonchick says:

    @shortstop:

    It’s clear that you have a powerful filter that repels any information or opinion you find distasteful before it can penetrate your consciousness

    Considering that I changed my mind on this because I found arguments from other people here persuasive, I must admit that I find your analysis rather spurious. But do carry on…

    You’re giving us all lots of reasons to suppose you don’t have the temperament, judgment or knowledge to safely carry one.

    I think you meant judgement, actually. The red squiggle means something is spelled incorrectly. Anyway…

    When you say “us all”, you presume to speak for all other people here. By what authority do you claim this privilege? I see you and perhaps two others. Moreover, you make a farcical show of concern on temperament over a person you have never met…based on a single angry retort made to another person (who made an ill-considered remark about having my child taken from me over a hypothetical incident that has never occurred).

    If telling a snide individual to “fuck off” makes a person unfit to use a gun in your opinion, then I pray you never talk to actual soldiers. Our use of coarse language in the army went well beyond what I said earlier.

  210. 210
    Keith G says:

    @shortstop: Not you too.

    Sigh

  211. 211
    Pococurante says:

    @dollared:

    It can be done. It can be legal.

    You are being deliverately obtuse.

    Of course it is possible and of course it can be legal. I’ve suggested several approaches and I’m still waiting for wingnuts like you to step up.

    Pragamatic, at least how I use the word, doesn’t mean impossible. It means you have the burden to come up with a real multi-year plan to get what you want.

    You have the burden. All citizens (including me) have that burden. Obtuse strawman whining on a blog site doesn’t count.

  212. 212
    Rafer Janders says:

    @Woodrowfan:

    Except that the US had an ingrained cultural regard for guns that many of those nations do not.

    Well, not quite:

    A. Many of those other nations also have gun cultures, but combine that with strict gun control. Israel, for example, is obviously a country where most have used and are comfortable with guns, but also has very restrictive gun ownership laws for private citizens.

    B. Some parts of the US have ingrained cultural regard for guns, parts do not. There’s not a strong gun culture among my friends who are New Yorkers, or Bostonians, or gay, or Jewish northeasterners, or San Francisco techies, or Hollywood liberals, women, or Chinese immigrants, or Indian immigrants, etc. etc.

    It’s not an exact “it worked there, it’ll work here” match.

    No, but there’s also no reason it can’t work here. There’s nothing so special about the US that we’re somehow the only developed nation in the world that’s too stupid to craft effective gun control.

  213. 213
    Peregrinus says:

    @ranchandsyrup:

    I stole the schtick from DougJ. The shameless self-promotion is all mine, I’m afraid.

  214. 214
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    But you guys aren’t even willing to go along with these very basic, common-sense ideas, so what’s the point of pretending?

    These two actions are ROUTINE with automobiles. Everyone accepts them as sane, responsible measures. Furthermore, the registration is in part to assist in tracking down vehicles that are stolen.

    We’re far more anal about automobiles, a tool designed for transportation, than we are about firearms, a tool designed for killing.

  215. 215
    celticdragonchick says:

    @MattR:

    But if are irreponsible in the handling of that gun, you will end up in a situation where you are temporarily unable to care for that child due to incarceration.

    He directly implied that I was somehow going to do something that would put him and his family at risk and therefore have my own son taken away. I still think it was a bullshit remark.

  216. 216
    gbear says:

    @TerryC: I recently had some small buttons printed up that say ‘I am NOT carrying a gun’ after some blowhard posted about how everyone should carry and those who don’t should be identified. I took him up on the offer and I’ve given through about 40 of the buttons to family and friends. I’ve been wearing it for a couple weeks now and no one has tried to shoot me (or rob me or beat me up) just because they know they won’t get shot.

  217. 217

    @Peregrinus: Always be closing, Peregrinus. Or always be driving clicks. Happy New Year and so on.

  218. 218
    Pococurante says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    But you guys aren’t even willing to go along with these very basic, common-sense ideas, so what’s the point of pretending?

    “You guys”? I’ve suggested several approaches and asked for more.

    For a community that likes to make fun of xenophobes who make sweeping generalizations I see the same wingnut mentality here.

    Arguing with empty chairs is pointless. Listen to what some of us are actually saying.

    We’re not so far apart.

  219. 219
    Peregrinus says:

    @ranchandsyrup:

    Coffee’s for clickers. Same to you, Ranch (or Syrup, or both).

  220. 220
    Topsailsman says:

    I own several hunting firearms, have for my entire life. Live in a rural area. Regrettably had to kill a grey fox last summer because it was killing my laying hens in broad daylight. Felt bad about that.

    But I’m tired of hearing about “law abiding citizens”. Everyone is a “law abiding citizen” right up until they shoot their ex-wife, kill a drunk teenager on their porch cause they feel threatened, kill a kid because his car music is too loud, or leave their loaded gun out where their 4 year old kid can use it to kill his 2 year old brother. They were ALL law abiding, blah blah blah.

    We are awash in guns and stupidity and anger. Everyone wants to kill someone, some want to kill the crazy mass shooters, some want to kill the liberals, kill the Muslims, some want to kill the other driver. Killing is what we do, and we will not apologize for it, no, we will demand it and we need guns.

    So here is how I think it will go. We will have another two years of increasing killings by “law abiding citizens”, another two dozen mass shootings in the next two years. And then people will have enough, and there will be huge restrictions. And the gun aficionados who think their “rights” trump every one else’s right to health and safety will be royally screwed. Oh, and there will be two more years of blog postings arguing about what is/is not an “assault rifle” and whether “Switzerland and/or Swaziland can prove” one side or the other. Same old American bullcrap, diddle while it burns. I do feel really sorry for the thousands of dead people in the next two years, especially for all the kids. I hope it ain’t anyone I care about. There is nothing anyone can do about it until the streets run red with blood, thanks to Wayne LaPierre and those who think like him. More guns, more guns.

  221. 221
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @celticdragonchick: That whole thing sounds like a gun drop to me. If he had legitimately lost it down in the theater seat, the minute he stood up he would have noticed. (“Hey! I don’t feel that big uncomfortable thing poking me any more oh my God where is it?”). I bet the local cops are taking a good hard look at his story.

    I am sorry to hear about your personal situation; the constant fear must be very hard on you and your son. I hope you can move to someplace safer ASAP.

  222. 222
    Rafer Janders says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    You would not know that just looking at it, but if it cannot actually fire, then you are not actually in danger.

    As I learned as a child, “never never let your gun / Pointed be at anyone / That it may unloaded be / Matters not the least to me….”

  223. 223
    Mnemosyne says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    You would not know that just looking at it, but if it cannot actually fire, then you are not actually in danger.

    Again, try to put yourself into the situation: your son is in a movie theater with a bunch of his classmates and finds a gun. Would you feel that he was in no danger and that the guy who left it there shouldn’t suffer any penalty for his mistake if the police told you later that the gun was unloaded?

    And, no, something like my kid never goes on field trips would not be a valid answer.

  224. 224
    👽 Martin says:

    @Pococurante:

    Besides immediately attempting outright banning and confiscation, what is a pragmatic plan to get there that works for the USA. Bear in mind when looking at other countries – they don’t have our Constitution.
    Pragmatically I’d suggest it start with an Amendment to the Second Amendment. But again, pragmatically speaking, how do you suggest we get there?

    You don’t. You don’t need it.

    Look at how civil courts deter behavior. You create a risk/reward relationship that causes the decision maker (the person considering buying the gun) to weigh the risks higher than the reward in most or in almost all cases – and then you build a framework to enforce that. Require federal permits and background checks, along with federal gun registration and renewal, along with requirements for securing weapons. That’s all fine under the commerce clause. Even Scalia won’t shoot that down. Make it easy, not onerous. Make it a crime to lose possession of a firearm without notifying ATF (which would apply to Quackenbush here, because he noticed it was missing the day before). Make it a crime to improperly secure your firearm – so that if someone steals an unsecured gun out of the top of your closet, you’ve also committed a crime. Make gun owners accessories to whatever crime is committed due to an unsecured gun. Make gun owners accessories to whatever crime is committed due to improperly selling a gun – give gun sales the same level of accountability as car and home sales, with a title and all that. Attach the ballistics profile of the gun to the database and title, so even one with serial number removed can be identified.

    No bans, but taken as a whole, it puts proper accountability for who owns each gun, and what guns each person is responsible for. It would immediately eliminate internet and gun show sales, unless there was present a notary and legal service for determining if the buyer was licensed and to handle title transfer. It would drastically slow the rate that guns get loose in the community. It would immediately increase the diligence of gun owners to secure their weapons properly, and it would almost certainly cause a lot of people to give up their guns altogether, or shift them from storage at home to storage at the range (in the case of sport weapons) and so on. Add in a buy-back program to encourage that. It would take a while to get all of the pieces in place and the database built (any guns not registered in the first year would be considered illegal and possession would be a felony) but it would achieve meaningful results fairly quickly without any need for bans.

    And I don’t think anything above is particularly controversial to the general public. I suspect most people believe much of that is already in place.

  225. 225
    Pococurante says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    We’re far more anal about automobiles, a tool designed for transportation, than we are about firearms, a tool designed for killing.

    I agree.

    And yet vehicular homicide is by and large the leading cause of death. I’d like to see gun owners held to a much higher degree of regulation, the same standard for conceal carry.

    As I do for car owners.

  226. 226
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Rosie Outlook:

    That whole thing sounds like a gun drop to me. If he had legitimately lost it down in the theater seat, the minute he stood up he would have noticed. (“Hey! I don’t feel that big uncomfortable thing poking me any more oh my God where is it?”). I bet the local cops are taking a good hard look at his story.

    Agree. Something seems off.

    I am sorry to hear about your personal situation; the constant fear must be very hard on you and your son. I hope you can move to someplace safer ASAP.

    Alas, that would probably mean leaving the US.

    I can say that Indianapolis was really, really bad. I will never use public transportation again if I am alone.

  227. 227
    Fluke bucket says:

    @RSA: I may let out a Wilhelm Scream at midnight tonight.

  228. 228
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    RESPONSIBLE gun owners should not rally around this guy, they should be in the forefront of those demanding action against him for his utterly irresponsible actions.

    You win the cigar. I don’t know if it’s because they can picture themselves in a similar situation, but gun owners seem very resistant to the idea that if someone is careless with a gun, they should face legal penalties.

  229. 229
    trollhattan says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    Theaters could sell bullets for self defense but the markup would be outrageous.

    Wonder what sort of Super-Size options they’d have?

  230. 230
    gbear says:

    @👽 Martin:

    …the killer may gun down a bunch of people carrying at the mall, but if everyone carries, then there will always be some people with guns to take out the shooter.

    All well and good until multiple shooters are blasting away and they lose track of who’s the bad guy. This is why having an armed guard in a school is so risky. When the cop shows up for a call about an armed man in a school and sees the guard carrying a weapon, what do you think is going to happen?

  231. 231
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Again, try to put yourself into the situation: your son is in a movie theater with a bunch of his classmates and finds a gun. Would you feel that he was in no danger and that the guy who left it there shouldn’t suffer any penalty for his mistake if the police told you later that the gun was unloaded?

    I understand your point here and I sympathize with it. My emotional reaction as a parent to my kid finding something that looks like it might be a functioning gun would still not change the reality of whether it can actually fire or not. If it cannot actually fire because it is unloaded or does not even function, then my kid was never objectively in danger.

    I would still be just as angry regardless.

  232. 232
    kay says:

    @debbie:

    Not that I’m aware of. The MI gun deregulation that just passed includes a provision that protects shooting ranges from civil suits by a municipality or city.
    A big part of what the NRA does is protect their industry from lawsuits. I’m not confident people are aware just how far this has gone at the state level. It’s amazing to read all the state law they’ve written.

  233. 233
    celticdragonchick says:

    @trollhattan:

    More butter and salt.

  234. 234
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @Rafer Janders: Aw. That’s cute.

    I think the gun debate is a lot like the abortion debate. One group wants a total ban; one group pushes for restrictions they feel are reasonable; one group demands no restrictions whatever because they feel their basic human rights are at stake; and they can never compromise with each other because the nones and the alls will not budge. World without end, amen.

  235. 235
    Mnemosyne says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    He directly implied that I was somehow going to do something that would put him and his family at risk and therefore have my own son taken away.

    No, he said that if you acted as irresponsibly with a gun as Quackenbush did, you would deserve to go to jail and not see your kid for 30 days. I think he was further assuming that you are a single parent and therefore there would be no one else to care for your child while you were in the clink.

  236. 236
    shortstop says:

    @celticdragonchick: There’s that filter again. It’s not the “fuck off.” It’s not a “single, angry retort.” It’s the entire package of careening anger coupled with a patent lack of understanding of either the law or of what other, more responsible gun owners with solid judgment (look it up, sillyhead; that spelling is commonly used and perfectly correct) consider acceptable practice.

    For me, it’s also the fact that you go into these uninformed, unstable rages a few times a year around here, always working yourself into higher dudgeon as your “facts” are challenged.

    @celticdragonchick: You really don’t know how nutty you sound, do you?

  237. 237
    MattR says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Agreed. It also reminds me that “shaming” may be the most effective tactic we have. IMO, changing the laws is not very effective if society is not in tune with those changes. (For example, I don’t think stiffer penalties for marijuana offenses would have a major effect since most of society seems to be OK with marijuana usage) In conjunction with any laws being changed we need a massive PSA type blitz pushing the idea that guns are largely unnecessary, that they don’t make you cool and also that you need to be super responsible if you do own one (ie. a zero tolerance policy for mistakes you make).

    @celticdragonchick:

    He directly implied that I was somehow going to do something that would put him and his family at risk and therefore have my own son taken away. I still think it was a bullshit remark.

    No. He didn’t, though you may have read it that way out of defensiveness. His comment was that you have to be responsible if you own a gun and if you do not live up to that standard you should face punishment. Your right to defend yourself and your family does not allow you to act in reckless ways that put him and his family at risk.

  238. 238
    Punchy says:

    @Rosie Outlook: I’m coming around to that idea myself. What’s a better place than a dark theater to move merchy?

    Of course, with almost zero regs and no background checks for private dealers (right?), not sure why he’d have to do it this way…

    Edit: gun shows have no backys, but I’m not sure about private dealers, so if I’m wrong, plz nobody shoot me.

  239. 239
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Pococurante:

    Arguing with empty chairs is pointless. Listen to what some of us are actually saying.

    We are. You’re claiming that concealed carry license holders are less likely to commit crimes while ignoring the fact that, by all accounts, this was an accident.

    Where are your statistics showing that CCL holders are less likely to have gun accidents, or to use their guns to commit suicide?

    Frankly, I am less worried about being deliberately shot by someone than I am about some idiot’s gun going off accidentally because he didn’t realize it was loaded.

  240. 240
    👽 Martin says:

    @kay:

    As I read it, the “more weapons in schools” law the NRA wrote includes tasers.

    Sure, because it wouldn’t pass without it. But take the guns out of the same bill, and the NRA will oppose it. I guarantee you.

    Jesus, Martin, stop encouraging this insanity :)

    Look, this is how you reframe debates. Rather than deny people’s fears about the need for self-defense, instead go after their solution for self defense and give them a more effective alternative. The goal isn’t to arm teachers, but to build a substitute market to concealed carry such that you can start to ban concealed carry by allowing private citizens to carry tasers and flashbangs under the same terms they can now conceal carry. And rather than have scared homeowners rush out and buy a gun, encourage them instead to buy a taser and flashbang. Inside your house, it’ll be damn effective (if messy) as you know the terrain, and it’s far less likely your 5 year old will shoot herself in the head or you put a round through her bedroom wall.

    After you neutralize the gun market and change the national attitude, then you deal with the proliferation of flashbangs.

  241. 241
  242. 242
    shortstop says:

    @Keith G: You’ll be okay. I manage not to send out alerts every time one of your comments disappoints me, and I feel fine about it and still admire you.

  243. 243
    JCT says:

    @Mnemosyne: Actually, the responsible ones, of course, would condemn this guy. The “amusing” part comes when the nuts admit that they are pissed off at this guy because he “ruins things” for the rest of them…

    There is a hard core minority that believes that the second amendment means that they should be able to own anything they like without being regulated in any way. They are very noisy and the NRA acts as their master facilitator.

  244. 244
    Mnemosyne says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I would still be just as angry regardless.

    But would you still think that the guy who left his gun where your son could find it should not face any legal sanction for doing so because it turned out to be loaded but without a bullet in the chamber?

    (Fixed because I accidentally changed my own parameters.)

  245. 245
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    We will just have to disagree on that one.

    Happy New Year to you and everyone else here (yes, that also includes everyone I argued with…)

    Stay safe tonight and watch out for the inevitable idiots on the road. Catch you all a couple of days. :)

    (My New Year’s resolution is to get enough money for my GRE and get into grad school. Still deciding between history or geology. I love geology, but I may be too damned crippled to do the field work at this point)

  246. 246
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Again, try to put yourself into the situation: your son is in a movie theater with a bunch of his classmates and finds a gun.

    Statistically, the child is put in much greater danger by the super size Snickers Bar and the 32 oz Big Red found in the lobby (or actually, just by the journey to and from the theater).
    /truthful snark.

    FWIW – I dislike public carry laws.

  247. 247
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Rafer Janders: I agree control CONTROL is possible, and necessary. I just don’t think a prohibition will work here.

  248. 248
    Woodrowfan says:

    @MattR: Or those maps you see on internet gaming or online porn usage, that all seem to match the maps showing simple population density..

  249. 249
    Keith G says:

    @shortstop: Touche.

    Cheers

  250. 250
    burnspbesq says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I have been wondering about that as well. I haven’t the faintest idea.

    I’ve had keys and cell phones slide out of pockets while slouched in a seat at the movies, but I reflexively check my pockets as soon as I stand up. Wouldn’t any sensible person do the same if they had a gun? I mean, when you leave the theatre, you’re going into that big scary parking lot full of OMG OOGA BOOGA I NEED TO PROTECT MYSELF!!! And if OMG OOGA BOOGA were to actually happen, and you reached for your piece and came out with a handful of pocket lint …

  251. 251
    RSA says:

    @👽 Martin:

    But in spite of it working, the outcomes aren’t worth the cost, and we learned that 40 years ago. There are cheaper/saner ways to achieve the same result. The gun community hasn’t learned the same lesson.

    Nice summary, Martin.

  252. 252
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    My anger at such an incident does not constitute cause to demand prosecution for a hazard that did not objectively exist.

    I would have a thing or three to say to him, however, and it would be quite a bit harsher then anything I wrote in here today.

    I do think it would still be ample cause to have a ccw revoked. If he/she had the weapon in the building where it was not legally allowed, then throw the book at ’em, loaded or not.

  253. 253
    shortstop says:

    @Woodrowfan: Except for Utah. Utah has a lot of ‘splainin’ to do.

  254. 254
    shortstop says:

    @Keith G: I left you a love letter in the hospice thread the other day, BTW. Not that I’m trying to buy my way out of your opinion about my opinion here — just wanted to make sure you saw it.

  255. 255
    johnny aquitard says:

    @Pococurante:

    only 120 were committed by CHL citizens

    You’re using this statistic to defend allowing concealed handguns? You are a fucking moron.

    120 felonies committed by people who were legally allowed to carry handguns is a goddamn outrage, a statistic something to be horrified by, not something to act like you’re proud of it.

    When it’s zero, then come brag to us about how awesome it all is.

  256. 256
    celticdragonchick says:

    @burnspbesq:

    I’ve had keys and cell phones slide out of pockets while slouched in a seat at the movies, but I reflexively check my pockets as soon as I stand up. Wouldn’t any sensible person do the same if they had a gun? I mean, when you leave the theatre, you’re going into that big scary parking lot full of OMG OOGA BOOGA I NEED TO PROTECT MYSELF!!! And if OMG OOGA BOOGA were to actually happen, and you reached for your piece and came out with a handful of pocket lint …

    LOL!

    Yeah, you would think.

    Also, a loaded 9mm handgun weighs a bit more than keys. I tend to think you should notice that as well when you stood up.

  257. 257
    Schlemizel says:

    You want to see the fantasy of a lot of the conceal carry crowd? Check out the opening of Dirty Harry. Eastwood is eating lunch when he sees the shit go down. He calmly ambles into the street with his monster cannon in one hand and his coney island dog in the other. He nonchalantly polishes off all the bad guys (well, except for one that he has to deal with in a minute) and the hot dog without so much as a spot on his suit. He even retains a sense of humor/bravado while having an exact count of the number of rounds he has fired.

    Anyone who has been involved in an honest to god shoot out will tell you that is bullshit beyond fantasy.

  258. 258
    celticdragonchick says:

    Anyways, I’m out for now. See you all a bit later.

  259. 259
    MattR says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    Happy New Year to you and everyone else here (yes, that also includes everyone I argued with…)

    Stay safe tonight and watch out for the inevitable idiots on the road. Catch you all a couple of days. :)

    Agreed with the minor addition to remember that you are out to have fun so there is no need to start arguments with strangers you run into. You never know who they are or how things will end up.

    Still miss ya, D-Will.

  260. 260
    Peregrinus says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I’ve held only one handgun in my lifetime – a Colt Single Action Army replica – and it’s probably because my arms are particularly milquetoast but even unloaded that motherfucker was heavy.

  261. 261
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @JCT:

    They are very noisy and the NRA acts as their master facilitator.

    Because these people are the best customers of the NRA’s true masters, the firearms and ammunition manufacturers.

    This isn’t about constitutional rights. That’s a smokescreen. It’s about moving product and profit. PERIOD.

  262. 262
    dollared says:

    @MattR: Thank you. @celticdragonchick:

    I don’t think you would leave a loaded gun in my kid’s playground. But before you fall in love with a gun as a solution to your fears, remember that you’ve just added one more thing to your life that could (accidentally) separate you from your son. Read Ta-Nehisi Coates on this: http://www.theatlantic.com/nat.....ue/266576/

    I left my cellphone at home today. That’s yet another reason why I don’t want to own a gun – I’m human, and I make mistakes. My children are two more. The last is the unavoidable statistic that a gun in my home is much more likely to be used on someone in my house than on someone who threatens my family.

    So I wish you well. Please be careful out there.

  263. 263
    MattR says:

    @burnspbesq:

    I’ve had keys and cell phones slide out of pockets while slouched in a seat at the movies, but I reflexively check my pockets as soon as I stand up. Wouldn’t any sensible person do the same if they had a gun? I mean, when you leave the theatre, you’re going into that big scary parking lot full of OMG OOGA BOOGA I NEED TO PROTECT MYSELF!!! And if OMG OOGA BOOGA were to actually happen, and you reached for your piece and came out with a handful of pocket lint …

    Given that he was motivated by the shootings in Aurora and Sandy Hook, shouldn’t he have been checking his gun every two minutes to make sure it was easily accessible in case he needed it?

    @Woodrowfan: That doesn’t explain Utah’s internet porn usage :)

  264. 264
    chopper says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    I can see why you’re deliberately avoiding dealing with the scenario where the gun is loaded with no round in the chamber. the best you’ve given is a shrug. ‘ask the DA’, thats a real courageous stance.

    the reason you keep dancing around it is because you envision accidentally dropping and leaving such a weapon as something that could happen to you, given your desire to carry concealed. you would never carry a weapon with a round chambered, but you would carry a loaded weapon. so you don’t want to think its okay to throw someone in the clink over that, and you’ve come up with all sorts of rationalizations why.

    that’s why the mild, inoffensive reference to our kid riled you up so much. it got a bit real.

  265. 265
    Woodrowfan says:

    @celticdragonchick: Quackenbush doesn’t strike me as the most, um, observant of fellows. Nor endowed with much (if any) common sense..

  266. 266
    Robin says:

    @Culture of Truth: I’m based in Colorado, in the Denver metro. I supervise a woman, who can be a little naive at times. Her father is a gun-collector, who needed to off-load some of his arsenal when he moved to a smaller place. For some reason she became the designated recipient of the excess weapons, and as such she got to attend a two day training course that would qualify her to apply for a concealed carry permit.

    On her first work-day after the course, she was full of all the things the instructor had told the attendees. From everything she said, it was pretty clear that the instructor was one of the cold-dead-hand crowd. But what she was most wide-eyed about was that he had apparently gone into a fair amount of detail about how differently things would have been at Columbine, had he been there when it went down.

    In my considered opinion, this guy was a fantasist bullshit artist of the worst kind, who probably ought not to be allowed to carry a gun, let alone take it on himself to teach others to use one.

  267. 267

    Finally, gun nutz the gun nuts will feel OK with regulating. ZOMG one of thems was an Occupy activist.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/l.....ZyfC1pLVXN

  268. 268
    Woodrowfan says:

    @Woodrowfan: That doesn’t explain Utah’s internet porn usage :)

    what else is there to do in Utah?? 8-)

  269. 269
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @Punchy: My guess would be he was selling the gun to someone not legally allowed to have one, and if those pesky kids hadn’t showed up before the picker-upper did, he’d have reported the weapon stolen, thus covering his ass if the illegal purchaser was ever caught with it. He didn’t retrace his steps because he had no way to know the “wrong” people had found the gun, until the cops came knocking.

  270. 270
    burnspbesq says:

    @MattR:

    Given that he was motivated by the shootings in Aurora and Sandy Hook, shouldn’t he have been checking his gun every two minutes to make sure it was easily accessible in case he needed it?

    Well, of course!

    Which raises the interesting philosophical question, if B logically follows from A, but A is insane, is B also insane?

    ETA: I guess it depends on what movie he was watching. If he was watching Les Mis, you would expect him to keep his wits about him. OTOH, something like Hard-Boiled might give him such a hard-on that he’d even forget his name.

  271. 271
    MattR says:

    @Woodrowfan: True, true. Been there once myself on business. Was so bored by the end of the week, that I rented and watched Idle Hands and thought it was hilarious (though a very young Jessica Alba definitely helped)

    @burnspbesq: Hmmm. Good question. They didn’t cover that in any of my classes.

  272. 272
    chopper says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    leaving a loaded gun on a seat so kids find it isn’t a hazard? seriously?

  273. 273
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    been cleaning the guns all day here. new year’s eve is a really big deal at the fuckhead compound. starting at around whiskey thirty we start whooping and shooting guns in the air. next thing ya know, we’re all taking it serious, trying to see who can shoot a bullet the highest. two years ago, my cousin floyd fell over backwards while aiming carefully trying to shoot someone else’s bullet out of the air and wound up accidentally shooting aunt geraldine in the ass. lucky she’s in a motorized scooter already, paralyzed from the neck down from a jumping accident in an atv couple year back. she weren’t doing nothing dangerous, just bad luck an atv fell off the side of a mountain and landed on her while she was hanging out clothes. the scooter absorbed most of the force of the shot and lodged a coupla pieces of metal in her ample posterior. she didn’t even know she’d been hit but my sister bunny started screaming and then fainted dead away, or pretended to, cuz she can be a drama queen, that one. anyway, after geraldine had been gently informed that she’d been shot, she grabs the scooter controller in her mouth and drives at floyd at prolly 15 miles an hour with the full intention of running him over. floyd does this frantic crab walk backwards to get away and wounds up crashing into kestel who is my uncle on both sides. anyways, kestel had been cutting brush down with a refurbished old gatling gun and floyd caused him to strafe the proceedings up pretty good. people start screaming and taking cover and we had us a shootout until prolly 3 in the morning and then cooler heads finally prevailed when we ran out of ammo. we still laugh about that.

  274. 274
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Keith G:

    Statistically, the child is put in much greater danger by the super size Snickers Bar and the 32 oz Big Red found in the lobby (or actually, just by the journey to and from the theater).

    Almost — the danger from the snacks or the trip to the theater is more common than the chance that one of the kids will find a loaded gun once you arrive at the theater.

    I don’t think you meant to imply that kids + a loaded gun is a less immediately dangerous scenario than kids + a Snickers bar. That Snickers bar is not going to kill anyone on the spot unless the kid chokes on it.

  275. 275
    chopper says:

    @Rosie Outlook:

    in which case not only is the guy a criminal, he’s also an idiot. who would do a gun drop at a theater?

  276. 276
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @Robin: i think you’re being a little hard on the giy’s motives, if not on his grasp of reality. When we hear of an atrocity, I dare say most of us think, “gee, if I had been there, could I have done anything to prevent it?”. To come up with the correct answer, which I believe to be “Probably not,” I think you have to have had a certain amount of exposure to real-life violence that most of these nice middle-age, middle-class heroes have had the good fortune to miss. In a real fight, once the shit hits the fan, it tends to fly where it will.

    Nononsenseselfdefense.com has some very interesting articles on this issue, as well as many others.

  277. 277
    👽 Martin says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Which raises the interesting philosophical question, if B logically follows from A, but A is insane, is B also insane?

    That’s easy. B can’t logically follow from A if you’ve invalidated A. You have to argue B on its own merits. B may or may not be insane.

    Similarly, if you call someone ‘evil’, you can’t logically draw any conclusions from that person. Everything they do they do because they’re evil. QED. It’s a great way to avoid arguing things on their merits – just call them evil or insane or whatever – it’s a form of nullification.

  278. 278
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Rosie Outlook:

    I think you misread the article — the guy showed up at the movie theater on his own to say he had lost his gun, and the police were subsequently called when they all realized that his gun was probably the one that was found.

    I don’t see any reason to think this was anything except an accident, because frankly this kind of stuff happens all the time. Think of the number of people who don’t realize until they’re at the airport that they accidentally left their gun in their carry-on bag.

  279. 279
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @chopper: Oh, I don’t think a theater is a bad place for a drop. It’s poorly lit and no one is paying much attention to you. But if I were doing a drop at a theater, I’d sure hang around till I was sure the intended recipient picked up the contraband, even if I had to buy two tickets and sit through Gigli twice. I sure wouldn’t leave the contraband at the drop site and go on my merry way, which, it sounds like, is what happened here.

    I’m about gunned out. Is anyone else up for a new topic?

  280. 280
    Mnemosyne says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    My anger at such an incident does not constitute cause to demand prosecution for a hazard that did not objectively exist.

    So, just to be clear, your opinion is that a loaded gun is not objectively hazardous as long as a round is not chambered?

    I have a feeling you’re not reading closely enough here. You keep trying to change the subject to an unloaded gun when that’s not what I asked.

  281. 281
    MattR says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Think of the number of people who don’t realize until they’re at the airport that they accidentally left their gun in their carry-on bag.

    I was just thinking that the NRA would probably encourage theaters to leave a gun on each seat for incoming patrons to use in defense if necessary, like airlines used to leave a pillow and blanket.

  282. 282
    Woodrowfan says:

    I’m about gunned out. Is anyone else up for a new topic?

    The role of Ralph Nader in 2000?? That’s always fun. (evil grin)

  283. 283
    Keith G says:

    @shortstop: I did …. and teared up.

    In my inadequate defense, maybe I am in an overwrought bio-rhythm cycle. I love the hashing out of policy and don’t mind sharp elbows, but things seem to get so personal so fast around here lately – and I am not talking about the trolls who, mostly, seem quite mild when compared to some the regs who blithely strike back with insult when opposition is expressed.

    Scan the typing above and consider this is how progressives treat each other. No wonder we under perform so often.

  284. 284
    JCT says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yup, exactly. And brother, are the NRA’s little minions fulfilling their mission at present. The local outdoor range was batshit insane the other day, I had to wait for a lane for the first time ever on a Sunday morning. It was filled with people trying out their new firearms. Tons of new AR-15s. My oldest was with me and was a bit freaked out.

    And EVERYONE was complaining about the near obliteration of ammo in retail stores here in Tucson.

    Nothing like a terrible tragedy to fill up the coffers of the firearm/ammo industry. And hey, what do you know? Now they think that all of Crazy Wayne’s pronouncements about “Obama is coming to get your guns in his 2nd term” is ACTUALLY coming true. Sickening, really.

  285. 285
    MattR says:

    @Rosie Outlook:

    Think of the number of people who don’t realize until they’re at the airport that they accidentally left their gun in their carry-on bag.

    How about this? Before they were married, my mother made my father give up hunting. On the first day of the first deer season that he did not hunt, he killed a deer with his car.

  286. 286
    muddy says:

    @Rosie Outlook:

    (“Hey! I don’t feel that big uncomfortable thing poking me any more oh my God where is it?”)

    I certainly notice when I am out without a bag on the usual shoulder. I feel lopsided, and sometimes I forget that I didn’t bring it, and panic momentarily until I realize it’s not lost.

    I think he probably does not regularly carry it about with him. He doesn’t have that body memory of it. He probably thought about going to a movie, thinks “Hey, I’ll bring the gun, just in case, etc”. Not comfortable, he puts the gun on the next seat. Mind you, I put my bag there when I go to the movies, but I am paranoid so I always have the strap over my wrist.

    This guy not being used to the weight, he doesn’t miss it a couple hours later when he gets up and stretches, and thinks about going for a piss. Not in the usual habit of checking (like keys or wallet), he just forgets and wanders off.

  287. 287
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    That Snickers bar is not going to kill anyone on the spot unless the kid chokes on it.

    I hear pretzels are the real choking hazard.

  288. 288
    muddy says:

    @MattR: How else was he supposed to get venison, jeez. You always see the most deer when you don’t have a gun with you, it’s true.

  289. 289
    dsale says:

    @dollared: This guy really is a moron… “How did they get here?” By taking Highway 28 to Route 6, how the hell else? It’s a 90-minute drive if the traffic is decent. What, they’re going to call in a chopper just to deliver the public shaming he so richly deserves?

  290. 290
    Ruckus says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    gun owners seem very resistant to the idea that if someone is careless with a gun, they should face legal penalties

    Projection. They see that they might just be (faultlessly of course!) accused of being irresponsible at some point and want to minimize that risk. Of course it’s always someone else that truly is irresponsible.

    BTW, we regulate bladed weapons. I don’t hear much talk about that. Of course it is pretty hard to kill 27 people in the space of what less than a half hour or to kill anyone from a university clock tower with a knife, Although I do know a cop who had to shoot a man with a knife after the man knocked the cop to the ground and attacked him.

  291. 291
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @Mnemosyne: Whoops. I certainly did misread it; I should have really read it rather than skimming through it. Thanks for the correction . You’re right, the guy is not a criminal; he’s a dolt.

    I will discuss Ralph Nader on my computer when you pry my cold dead fingers from it. Which may be sometime today; I have the new What’s Going Around. Thus all this Internetting; don’t feel like doing much else.

    Somebody was talking about when commenters were nice to each other. When was that? Since I’ve been reading they’ve been pretty, er, direct.

  292. 292
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Keith G:

    Mmm … pretzels with Snickers

    /Homer Simpson drool

  293. 293
    Mnemosyne says:

    @MattR:

    It would definitely solve the problem of people talking during the movie.

  294. 294
    Keith G says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    Salt + Chocolate = Crack

  295. 295
    Ruckus says:

    @👽 Martin:
    Isn’t this like bringing in a natural predator for some animal or plant. It works for a while but the unintended consequences in the long run might be worse. I’m thinking kudzu in the south as an example. There are others.
    Why create an additional problem to be solved when it gets out of hand? We have enough problems with weapons, stupidity, irresponsibility, jackasses with society issues. Let’s work on fixing the problem not kicking the can down the road. Hell that’s why congress doesn’t work most of the time.

  296. 296
    Pococurante says:

    @Keith G:

    … seem quite mild when compared to some the regs who blithely strike back with insult when opposition is expressed.

    Scan the typing above and consider this is how progressives treat each other. No wonder we under perform so often.

    Ayup.

    Wingnuts are not just on the right. Progressives do it just as, err, well. And that’s why in our current climate nothing progresses.

    All or nothing is a poison.

  297. 297
    Ruckus says:

    @Woodrowfan:
    A professor once told the class:
    “If common sense really was, more people would have some.”

    Best thing I got out of that class. Oh yeah and how to argue with someone no matter what the topic or your personal point of view.

  298. 298
  299. 299
    Ruckus says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:
    Either that was funny or you live an interesting life. Given the amount of guns and whiskey I’m going with hilarious.

  300. 300
    MattR says:

    @muddy: My dad actually gave my mom a bit of a hard time becuase the lack of gun meant the poor deer suffered until my dad could flag down a hunter who was able to put it out of its misery.

  301. 301
    muddy says:

    @MattR: True, but you know if he had the gun, he would not have seen a deer by the road. ;-)

  302. 302
    Mandalay says:

    Speaking of dumb assholes losing their guns….

    A veteran Monroe County Sheriff’s Office sergeant lost his spot on the agency’s special-response unit after losing weapons and gear from his patrol car.

    Sgt. Ken Fricke will be suspended for seven working days (84 hours) without pay and be removed from the Special Weapons and Tactics roster, Chief Lou Caputo of the agency’s Law Enforcement Bureau concluded in a Dec. 13 report.

    The September burglary was the second time in three years that weapons were stolen from Fricke’s patrol car while parked outside his Big Pine Key home.

    http://www.keysnet.com/2012/12.....nsion.html

    All the gun stuff going on has really hardened my feelings towards people like this cop. Before I guess I would have thought he was a jerk for losing his guns twice in three years. Now I feel like he is a menace to society, he shouldn’t be a cop, and he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a gun ever again.

  303. 303
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Ruckus: as god is my witness it is all true as it was tolt to me. i was down in the holler trying to get two legs the barn cat – we call him that now – out of a fox snare. i heard all the shooting and just decided to spend the night down there.

    preacherdine was the only one shot up and she’s fine. (everybody calls her preacherdine because she was named after her daddy gerald who turned out not to be her daddy but instead it was the preacher of the little baptist church knocked her momma up so everybody just started calling her preacherdine but never to her face.)

    and she don’t go outside no more when we’re whooping and shooting.

  304. 304
    Terry Chay says:

    @Woodrowfan: most likely the gun was trapped in the seat. When the seat was out down it clattered onto the floor.

  305. 305
    Mandalay says:

    @johnny aquitard:

    120 felonies committed by people who were legally allowed to carry handguns is a goddamn outrage, a statistic something to be horrified by, not something to act like you’re proud of it.

    This.

    Only 120 priests were found to have molested a child…
    Only 120 judges were found to have accepted a bribe…
    Only 120 teachers were found to have had sex with a student…

  306. 306
    aimai says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    This is a complete abidcation of responsibility and imagination. What if someone else had seen the gun, been armed, and assumed (as I would have) that this asshole was *about* to shoot? No, concealed permit carry assholes should not be carrying unloaded guns and forgetting them lying about–for obvious reasons. If you are legitimately in fear of your life every god damned second and need to be armed you hav eno business carrying an unloaded weapon. If you aren’t in fear of your life you don’t need to be carryign the gun. And as for losing the unloaded gun? That is no different, technically, than passing it along to a child, mentally impaired person, or felon. It should be treated as a crime equivalent to handing it directly to a person who is not liscenced to carry the weapon and who will be a danger to himself or to others–whether unloaded or not.

    What boggles my mind is the fact that the reality of guns as weapons of death seems to drop completely out of the arguments of even people like yourself who insist on the necessity of carrying all the time. You insist that guns are both more special, and less, than any other kind of object that exists in civil society. But they aren’t–except insofar as they are more dangerous to others.

    I know I’m going to get in trouble for saying this but I’ve followed your posts for years and I know all about your special circumstances and history and I just don’t fucking get it. If I had been threatened with death by my neighbors/family/friends known and unknown over a multi year period either I’d deal with it legally or move the fuck away. I get that you are a transgender woman but there are places in this country where you and your family will not, in fact, be in danger from the knuckle draggers. If you have left your children in danger because you insist on living with crazy people that is all on you. We really do not need to allow every lunatic in this country to carry a gun–including Rod Fucking Dreher–because you insist on living with dangerous people.

  307. 307
    kay says:

    @👽 Martin:

    I’ve been reading Right wing gun sites and the effort to end “gun free school zones” predates both the VA school shooting and the CT shooting.
    They resent gun free zones because they think it is a check on their “rights” to carry whatever, wherever. Has absolutely nothing to do with “school safety”. So, suggesting tasers probably won’t reach them.

  308. 308
    Ronzoni Rigatoni says:

    Well, it’s once again “Happy New Years Eve” in beautiful sunny Florida when many of our responsible gun owners will note the midnight hour by firing their guns into the air. Apparently nobody explained to them the Law of Gravity, a fact which I think ought to be included in any firearms training course. But what do I know? There’s a bonus here though. Tomorrow there will be work for the guys who repair the holes in the roofs of our many trailers in our many trailer parks because of the descending projectiles caused by that pesky Law of Gravity.

    Happens every year. Can’t run. Can’t hide. A solid argument for the partaking of strong potions this evening.

    Happy New Year everyone.

  309. 309
    polyorchnid octopunch says:

    @celticdragonchick: I’m pretty sure that they were talking about endangering their kid, not yours, which is what Quackenbush did by losing his gun; endanger the two kids who found it. Which indicates you’re a poor prospect as a responsible gun carrier.

  310. 310
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Ronzoni Rigatoni:

    Well, it’s once again “Happy New Years Eve” in beautiful sunny Florida when many of our responsible gun owners will note the midnight hour by firing their guns into the air. Apparently nobody explained to them the Law of Gravity, a fact which I think ought to be included in any firearms training course. But what do I know? There’s a bonus here though. Tomorrow there will be work for the guys who repair the holes in the roofs of our many trailers in our many trailer parks because of the descending projectiles caused by that pesky Law of Gravity.

    more laws ain’t the solution, libtard.

    in fact, i’d say that’s a law that is endangering lawbiding citizens

  311. 311
    muddy says:

    Gravity is only a theory anyway, like evolution.

  312. 312
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Ronzoni Rigatoni:

    I’m sure I’m foolish for even asking this question, but don’t they try to prevent that? We have a huge PSA campaign in Los Angeles every year telling people to not do that plus severe penalties if you’re caught, and we haven’t had a death in 12 years. I think they catch about 20 people a year doing it, which is pretty good in a metro area of 4 million.

  313. 313
    Ronzoni Rigatoni says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Who’s talking about more laws, asshole? I only wish I had some bullets around here so’s I can join the festivities.

    Living in Florida all these many years provides a unique educational experience in living among total morons.

  314. 314
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Ronzoni Rigatoni:

    Living in Florida all these many years provides a unique educational experience in living among total morons.

    sorry, i thought they was all out in utah.

  315. 315
    Ronzoni Rigatoni says:

    @Mnemosyne: Unfortunately, you are talking about personal responsibility. In Florida,where murder by firearm is in many cases apparently legal, that seems to be defined by the NRA. The practice is illegal, but who cares?

    BTW, wasn’t “Quackenbush” a character in a Groucho Marx movie?

  316. 316
    johnny aquitard says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    gun owners seem very resistant to the idea that if someone is careless with a gun, they should face legal penalties.

    These are the same assholes who invariably claim they represent ‘responsible gun owners’.

    I do not see how someone can claim they are being responsible if they refuse any consequences that go with it.

    Refusing to accept any consequences for failing the responsibilities that come with owning guns is what being irresponsible looks like.

  317. 317
    JCT says:

    @kay:

    I’ve been reading Right wing gun sites and the effort to end “gun free school zones” predates both the VA school shooting and the CT shooting.

    Good lord, Kay – talk about taking one for the team. I hope you have a stiff drink with you.

    Scary stuff when you realize that most of those nuts have arsenals and piles of ammo.

    If you really want to lose faith in humanity, dig up a Travon Martin thread. And keep your eye out for the the sickos making and selling “hoodie” targets.

    Some of those forums are real cesspools.

  318. 318
    johnny aquitard says:

    @kay:

    I’ve been reading Right wing gun sites

    I’ve read some of those too and the freaks there and their paranoia, fear and bigotry scares me so badly that if there was one reason I’d even remotely consider carrying concealed would be to protect myself from these crazy bigoted fuckers who are now packing heat. Then I catch myself — this is how they tear our society apart, with fear.

    Their obsession on carrying guns wherever they want makes everything less secure, not more, causes more fear, not less. It’s negative feedback loop, spiraling toward a paranoid society and guns everywhere.

    Ironically the real danger is not from the people they are so afraid of. It’s from them and what they are doing. They set on making reality, the world the rest of us live in, as dangerous and full of fear as their deluded inner world is.

  319. 319
    Djur says:

    @MikeJ: Camp 18. That brings me back.

  320. 320
    Ruckus says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:
    I believe I remember you stating that you are an atheist at some point in the past so swearing to god seems like misdirection. So I’m still going with humorous.
    Now if I’m incorrect I apologize for attributing you more sense than necessary or proper.
    However… I once lived in the part of the country that it sounds like you come from given the writing style and I have to say it certainly is believable.

  321. 321
    Starlit says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Black president re-elected despite everything they could do? Tillamook is a very white small town…

  322. 322
    Ronzoni Rigatoni says:

    @Ruckus: He’s just kidding. I figger the subject is so damned serious that sometimes snark might be inappropriate, but hell, it’s a holiday (of sorts), and SOME levity is useful. Good whiskey is better, but stay home, indoors, under the bed (if you live in Florida). It’s nutz out there tonight.

    Quackenbush? Geeze!

  323. 323
    Ruckus says:

    @Ronzoni Rigatoni:
    Oh I know that. Just having a little fun cause you are right, snark is sometimes the only answer. Otherwise one has to duck and cover when the sun comes up. Or is it goes down, I can never get that straight.
    I’m going out for a walk. Not taking a gun although I may see coyotes(as in a pack of them) or birds of pray. 2 of the neighbors chickens have been killed and I chased a hawk out of the coop about 3 weeks ago. I think I’ll be OK unless a car runs my butt over.

  324. 324
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Ruckus: i’m a christian humanist by training and discipline but nowadays that pretty much translates into ‘atheist’.

  325. 325
    Ronzoni Rigatoni says:

    Groucho’s character was initially to have been named Dr. Quackenbush, which he and everyone else thought was too silly a name to offend anyone. But MGM’s legal department discovered at least a dozen legitimate U.S. doctors named Quackenbush, so, for legal reasons and to Groucho’s dismay, the name was changed to Hackenbush.

    From “A Day at the Races.” Dang, I knew I heard that name somewheres. Groucho’s initial appellation seems appropriate here haw haw haw

  326. 326
    Ruckus says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:
    Thanks for the update. Remembering that means my ole brain box hasn’t sprung a massive leak. Yet.

  327. 327
    Odie Hugh Manatee says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    End screen clip:

    It isn’t neat to leave your heat on the seat!
           After the fun make sure you take your gun!

  328. 328
    liberal says:

    @aimai:

    If you are legitimately in fear of your life every god damned second and need to be armed you hav eno business carrying an unloaded weapon.

    Amen. This is why I oppose concealed carry. I want carry to be open only—so I can stay far the hell away from anyone so screwed up as to think they need to carry a gun around all the time.

  329. 329
    Robin says:

    @Rosie Outlook: I don’t necessarily have a problem with the guy fantasizing about what he might have done in that situation (although the truth is, until you’re in it, there is absolutely no way to know how you might respond) but to boast about what you would have done had you been in a specific situation to a group of people you are allegedly ‘training’ to use guns is what is unconscionable.

    And although it impressed my naive staff member mightily, no one with any sort of police/military/emergency response background would have been anywhere near as impressed. Talkers like this are never doers when the chips are really down.

  330. 330
    West Oakland original says:

    O@dollared:thanks for pointing this out. Anyone who can’t turn their back on perceived trolling…maybe shouldn’t be buying a tool that makes taking a life a matter of moving a finger.

  331. 331
    West Oakland original says:

    @ant: no. A semi automatic handgun like the Beretta in question needs a chambered round to be fired (drawing power from the gas recharge cycle) in order to reload a waiting round for firing. Pulling the trigger several time on an empty chamber is t going to load, cock, and fire the bullet.

    I really wish sometimes that people with opinions on guns would STFU about how guns work until they’ve actually used one. Like many things, the operation of a gun is simple to demonstrate, but the principles are difficult to explain to a non-user.

  332. 332
    g says:

    @Woodrowfan: When the cleaning crew is also the candy counter cashier and part-time projectionist, it’s probably not unusual to miss mopping a few rows. But in this case, according to the story, the gun was trapped in the folded up seat – the boy discovered it when he unfolded the seat and the gun fell to the floor.

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