Another Man Card Issued

man_card

More news about yesterday’s fire and shooting:

Before killing two Webster firefighters and critically injured two others, William Spengler Jr. typed a chilling note detailing his horrific plan.

At a news conference this morning, Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering released new details about Monday’s ambush.

Armed with a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle — the same weapon used in the massacre in Newtown, Conn. — a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun and a .38 caliber Smith & Wesson revolver and a stockpile of ammunition, Spengler set a “clear ambush on first responders,” Pickering said, and followed through on the threats he made in the typewritten note he left behind.

“I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I like best: killing people,” Spengler wrote in the note, which Pickering said was a rambling two to three pages long and did not speak to motive.

Spengler’s sister is missing – they’re sifting through the rubble of his house to try to find her body.






113 replies
  1. 1
    Alison says:

    Jesus effing crap :(

  2. 2
    FonzieScheme says:

    Gee, I wonder what video games he played?

    /snark

  3. 3
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Words fail.

    Any chance of getting LaPierre indicted as an accessory?

  4. 4
    Yutsano says:

    @FonzieScheme: You snark. The NRA is working as we type to come up with any excuse but teh gunz!! Video games may yet enter the picture.

  5. 5
    Comrade Jake says:

    All I could think about yesterday was those firefighters getting killed on Christmas Eve, and the impact on their families. Terrible. Just… terrible.

  6. 6
    The Dangerman says:

    Man Card, Bushmaster; their marketing department has an interesting target market…

    …and Bushmaster sales spike. How very sad.

    I heard one of the Firemen killed was a cop at his day job; wonder how pissed that Police Chief is at the NRA?

  7. 7
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Spengler wrote in the note, which Pickering said was a rambling two to three pages long and did not speak to motive.

    What levels stupid does this “reporter” aspire to?

    The motive is obvious. The guy said he liked to kill people.

    You know, like how Dick Cheney likes to shoot people in the face.

  8. 8
    Comrade Rutherford says:

    Bushmaster renewed Spengler’s Man Card. Does Bushmaster hand out a special reward based on how many firemen you can kill with their product? Why not?

  9. 9
    sweaver says:

    Spengler’s gun didn’t kill people, Spengler killed people.

    On the other hand, Izzard said it best, “Yeah, but I think the gun helps.”

    In fact, here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914

  10. 10
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    Clearly it’s very, very important that this man be allowed to have a massive stockpile of high-powered killing machines. You know, because of tyranny.

    Fucking hell.

  11. 11
    dr. bloor says:

    “I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I like best: killing people,” Spengler wrote in the note,

    They’re going to run his DNA against every unsolved murder in the upstate area between 98 and yesterday morning. Be interesting to see what they come with.

  12. 12
    c u n d gulag says:

    So, in Newtown, CT, we have carefully wrapped Christmas gifts which will never be opened by eager little hands.

    And now, in Upstate NY, we have husbands and fathers, who go to help other when there’s trouble, who’ll never open the gifts from their wives, children, parents, and siblings.

    All for the purported right, that any and every one can arm themselves to their heart’s content, and what their wallet’s can can bear.
    The strong will survive. And the Devil take the hindmost.

    Hey, Wayne LaPierre, what “organized militia” was this murderous lunatic a part of?

    Why don’t you come to town, in person, to both of those towns, to explain how guns don’t kill people. Video games, and violent movies do.
    Oh, and bring your pal, Mike Huckster-for-a-buck, come, and explain how those towns didn’t pray hard enough, or well enough, or long enough, or in schools.
    And

  13. 13
    sargeant pepper's spray says:

    Why don’t they just get it over with and market it as “kills kids on sight”, that’s more or less the target demographic they’re aiming for. Is it too late for a Moore Award?

  14. 14
    JCT says:

    I am way beyond my capacity for disgust at present.

    And hey, Wayne — why the fuck did this FELON have an assault rifle? Don’t tell me, hasn’t your death-mongering organization been fighting to help felons get their gun rights back? So compassionate of you.

  15. 15
    Haydnseek says:

    @Yutsano: He had done a long stretch in prison for killing his grandmother with a hammer. The NRA blames Home Depot do-it-yourself videos for the shootings, because easy access to guns had nothing whatsoever to do with these murders.

  16. 16
    Mnemosyne (iPhone) says:

    In before the trolls:

    But but but what about the innocent gun owners who would never dream of doing anything like this? Well, okay, they dream of doing it, but most of them never will. Won’t anyone think of the guys who fantasize about killing people but are too chickenshit to do it?

  17. 17
    Mark S. says:

    I don’t know about video games, but I’d bet $100 he either watched Fox News or found it too liberal.

  18. 18
    Schlemizel says:

    Firefighters really need to be armed with their own .223 Bushmasters and every fire engine should have one of these GAU-8 beauties mounded on the top deck
    http://images.rcuniverse.com/f.....j22582.jpg

    Its the only rational solution

  19. 19
    PurpleGirl says:

    I am usually against the death penalty. But every so often there is a person so vile and evil (never realized how those two words have the same letters) that I want to be able to give that person the ultimate penalty. I want the revenge — you take a life (or several) and you lose your own. The death penalty isn’t a deterrent, but it is revenge.

  20. 20
    Keith G says:

    Well, the countdown continues. We are just another 30-50 similar incidents away from significant gun legislation making it through the Congress.

    Feliz Navidad.

  21. 21
    Schlemizel says:

    @Bubblegum Tate:

    Wait? I need a huge amount of firepower because of trannys? Would those be pre-op?

  22. 22
    ruemara says:

    This reads like the bones of the plot to Halloween.

  23. 23
    Narcissus says:

    It’s like there is some form of contagious schizophrenia going around.

    Symptoms include gun-nuttery, tax-nuttery, abortion/rape/sex-nuttery, god-nuttery, gold-standard-nuttery, et cetera, and so on and so forth, in saecula saeculorum, ad infinitum.

    There is always more and it is always worse.

  24. 24
    D. Mason says:

    @Haydnseek: I think the hammer and arson murders do show that this guy is a determined killer with or without guns. Obviously his grandma was a much easier victim than these professional heroes but I get the idea that without the guns he could have simply chosen some helpless victims and figured something out.

  25. 25
    Citizen Alan says:

    @PurpleGirl:

    Ironically, I still feel more pity for the killer than for Wayne LaPierre. The killer, as horrific as his actions were, was plainly deranged and should have been restrained years ago for his own safety and that of others. LaPierre facilitates this horror show in exchange for nearly a million dollars in salary. I imagine he’ll get a nice year end bonus as a result of this tragedy.

  26. 26
    Mike in NC says:

    I hope both Wayne LaPierre and Bill O’Reilly have a really shitty Christmas.

  27. 27
    TruthOfAngels says:

    I wonder what happens when a gunman shoots a pregnant woman in the stomach?

    Well, actually, no, I don’t.

    Day 1: Silence.

    Day 7: More gunz!

    Day 8: Er, pregnant wimmenz should have guns!

    Day 9: Err, fetuses should have guns!

    Day 10: Fuck it, balls out. LIRBULS COMMUNISM STUF! Yeah, that should do it.

  28. 28
    Amir Khalid says:

    Yesterday, another commenter said the fire might have been set to lure the firemen to the scene. Then I speculated that the Webster shooter’s motive was most likely amoral thrill-seeking. I am not happy to learn that both of us guessed right.

    If Bushmaster had any decency, they’d have pulled those horrible “man card” advertisements from all media right after the Newtown shooting. Did they, or did I guess right about their sense of decency?

  29. 29
    c u n d gulag says:

    @Schlemizel:
    NEW first rules for Firefighters:

    When you arrive, establish a solid perimeter, and set up pickets in all directions.

  30. 30
    Rational Subjectivist says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    The question you’re asking is: is there such a thing as bad publicity? We might find out.

  31. 31
    c u n d gulag says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    Their sense of profits, overrides any sense of decency – presuming they had any of the latter in the first place.

  32. 32
    BerkeleyMom says:

    Can a convicted murderer legally buy those weapons he had?

  33. 33
    dr. bloor says:

    @Narcissus: Most of the schizophrenics I’ve worked with don’t want anything to do with any of that shit.

  34. 34
    Bruuuuce says:

    @Keith G:

    We are just another 30-50 similar incidents away from significant gun legislation making it through the Congress

    .

    Is that the new Friedman Unit?

  35. 35
    Keith G says:

    @PurpleGirl: I get the anger that leads humans to want other humans to die (so, it seems, does Mr Spengler), but I don’t see the need to spend millions to execute a sick man just to satisfy a revenge woodie.

    Speaking of killing things….’seems Hagel’s shot at DoD is being field dressed.

  36. 36
    Haydnseek says:

    @D. Mason: Of course that’s entirely possible, but I do think that it’s very telling to look at his first choice of tools, which in this case were easy to obtain firearms. Had there been an easier, higher kill ratio method, I imagine he would have chosen it.

  37. 37
    dr. bloor says:

    @BerkeleyMom:

    Can a convicted murderer legally buy those weapons he had?

    No, which of course means that we don’t need strict gun laws because then only criminals would have guns.

    As opposed to when the killing weapons were legally purchased, meaning that it’s OK because no laws were broken.

    See how that works?

  38. 38
    Haydnseek says:

    @BerkeleyMom: Of course! He’s obviously part of a well regulated militia. He keeps his militia paperwork in his wallet, right next to his Bushmaster man card.

  39. 39
    BGinCHI says:

    I would like to see some civil lawsuits over Newtown and this, with a judge or two willing to go after the manufacturers and empty their pockets.

    Or is there a law on the books that protects them?

    Nothing would surprise me.

  40. 40
    gogol's wife says:

    @Mnemosyne (iPhone):

    You missed a “fun” conversation with Whidby the other day. Lightning strikes and drones were involved.

  41. 41
    Keith G says:

    @Bruuuuce: It’s proooobably better categorized as the broken government unit.

  42. 42
    gogol's wife says:

    @BGinCHI:

    I believe there is a law on the books that protects them, W.-era, but maybe others are better informed about this. I’ve seen it mentioned as something that needs to be changed.

  43. 43
    The Dangerman says:

    @Keith G:

    We are just another 30-50 similar incidents away from significant gun legislation making it through the Congress.

    No, it will take a dis-similar incident to change things; the NRA and their brethren have proven they could give a shit about malls, firemen, and elementary schools (I thought that might be the straw that broke the camels back, but I was obviously wrong). It will take something truly shocking to change their minds about legislation (after Newtown, I can’t imagine what would be shocking enough, but it’s out there just waiting to happen).

  44. 44
    Amir Khalid says:

    @BerkeleyMom:
    As I understand, he could well have circumvented any checks via the gun-show loophole.

  45. 45
    yam says:

    I can imagine the Bushmaster execs rubbing their hands with glee as this spikes sales. Sad little men running to get their hands on one before they’re outlawed…

  46. 46
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @BGinCHI:

    There’s a law on the books that protects them. Passed in 2005, signed by the deserting coward.

    It needs to be repealed.

  47. 47
    JCT says:

    @Amir Khalid: Not to mention the fact that the NRA has aggressively fought to restore firearm rights to convicted felons. It’s one of their favorite “missions”.

  48. 48
    Joey Maloney says:

    @Keith G:

    I get the anger that leads humans to want other humans to die (so, it seems, does Mr Spengler), but I don’t see the need to spend millions to execute a sick man just to satisfy a revenge woodie.

    LaPierre looks healthy enough to me.

  49. 49
  50. 50
    PurpleGirl says:

    @gogol’s wife: Bush signed a law, a provision of which protects gun manufacturers from tort liability in 2005.

  51. 51
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    I don’t really have any words for this. What a sick fucking world.

  52. 52
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    All firearms need to be registered, to establish ownership of them.

    We do this with automobiles as a matter of course.

    Then, if they happen to be stolen, or are discovered to be missing, the owner needs to immediately report this fact.

    If the registered owner does not, the registered owner is on the hook as an accessory to whatever crimes might be committed with those registered weapons.

    In the military, you’re assigned a weapon, by serial number. When that weapon is out of the arms room, in your possession, you are responsible for it at all times.

    Misplacing or losing your weapon is an offense under the UCMJ.

    The “well regulated militia” should operate under those standards.

  53. 53
    Amir Khalid says:

    @JCT:
    Spengler beat his grandmother to death. You mean to say, the NRA fights to restore gun rights even to violent felons like him? Dear God.

  54. 54
    Rosie Outlook says:

    The guy stated his motive clearly. He liked to kill people.

    I wonder if the elephant in the room here isn’t race, but class. There always have been men who like to kill people and, up until very recently, a “middle-class” man had a good chance of doing this and getting away with it, especially if he preyed on hookers. He could have his fun and maintain his comfortable life. Now, you never know who’s watching and filming, whether it’s a red-light camera or a private citizen with a cell phone. The chances of being caught are higher than ever before, and so he hesitates. He tries to ignore the urge. Finally, like a woman on a diet, he can no longer hold back. Except when SHE breaks down, all she does is eat all the ice cream in the fridge. When HE breaks down…

    If this is what’s happening, I suppose it could be argued that violent movies and games may help satisfy the guy for a while and delay the eruption. Contrariwise, it could be argued that they give him ideas. Or both . Or neither . I don’t know . Nor do I know what to do about it. I cannot say I share liberals’ faith in gun control , as I think that horse left the barn about two hundred million weapons ago, but on the other hand I don’t have a better idea. I do think it might be worthwhile to work to shut down Fox News and conservative radio. Keeping people already inclined to violence in a constant state of agitation and paranoia is probably not the best idea.

  55. 55
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Hey, their money is just as good as any law abiding citizen’s money, as far as the NRA, lobby for the Merchants of Death, is concerned.

  56. 56
    Pangloss says:

    Does the NRA have a subsidiary that manufactures caskets? Synergy, donchaknow!

  57. 57
    JCT says:

    @Amir Khalid: Yup– subtleties like whether the felon committed a violent crime or not are way too complex for the cretins running the NRA. Besides, the more people who can BUY guns the better, right?

  58. 58
    BGinCHI says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I thought so.

    If the money dries up for these manufacturers, or the risk goes up substantially, then maybe that’s a way forward around the political morass.

  59. 59
    Unabogie says:

    I posted this on another forum, but New York State does in fact have a way for violent felons to get their gun rights back. Just fill out this form and wait.

    Link

    So as long as you complete your parole and exhibit good behavior, which this guy did, you can legally buy weapons to “do what you do best”.

    I wish the AP would report this fact, but every news source I see says he couldn’t legally buy weapons, but it’s possible he did.

  60. 60
    Donut says:

    If Mike Dukakis can be permanently branded as a wimp for answering the infamous ‘if your wife was raped and killed” scenario in the ‘wrong’ way, surely we can figure out some questions to ask of Republican House members, vis a vis access to these weapons and cartridges, that tie them in ridiculous rhetorical knots. Then we pummel them with it relentlessly in 2014. It ain’t rocket science.

  61. 61
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    Can a convicted murderer legally buy those weapons he had?

    @BerkeleyMom: What does that matter? Serious question, I really want to know.

  62. 62
    Anya says:

    @Keith G:

    Speaking of killing things….’seems Hagel’s shot at DoD is being field dressed.
    Reply

    I would really be disappointed with the president if he gives in to the Israel lobby’s smear campaign against Senator Hagel. If he does that he might as well hand over Mideast policy to Netanyahu.

  63. 63
    Donut says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    With the right kind of messaging, seems like this approach could work very well terms of selling it politically.

    One would think (though admittedly I am no expert on fancy-talking gun lawyer-y stuff) that such federal laws could be crafted tightly enough to pass muster with a conservative-ish Supreme Court.

    This has got to be done on a national level, with our politicians talking about it with the message consistency that the other side sticks to, such as with their talking points about taxes, job creators and deficits.

    And a leader with a national profile to pull this off wouldn’t hurt, either.

    Maybe Barack will consider inviting someone like, say, the last president who signed an assault weapons ban. Big Dog don’t seem too occupied right now. Just sayin.

  64. 64
    Lojasmo says:

    @BerkeleyMom:

    He was convicted of manslaughter.

    Short answer, though…yes.

  65. 65
    Liberty60 says:

    But, er, let this be a lesson to future jackbooted tyrants!
    Not to go to people’s houses to…
    Um OK, in this case they were putting out a fire.

    But it totally could have been Obama coming to take away his GUNS!
    So, there’s that!

  66. 66
    Joel says:

    @PurpleGirl: Life in solitary is my preferred way, but I recognize that such punishment is beyond cruelty.

  67. 67
    trollhattan says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:
    My understanding a felon cannot legally own them in New York state. Other states, IIUC, have a path back to paradisegun ownership for felons.

    Thanks to you-know-who, I’m sure, who will come out with the strong re-statement: “we need to enforce the laws we already have.”

    Rinse. Repeat.

  68. 68
    Mark S. says:

    @Lojasmo:

    Just curious, how do you get convicted of manslaughter if you take a hammer to someone’s head? That seems pretty fucking intentional.

  69. 69
    Anya says:

    “I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I like best: killing people,” Spengler wrote in the note, which Pickering said was a rambling two to three pages long and did not speak to motive.

    What does he mean by “did not speak to motive?”

  70. 70
    PeakVT says:

    @dr. bloor: I don’t think they’ll find anything. Massacre/suicide killers don’t have much in common with serial killers.

  71. 71
    Thot Gor says:

    @The Dangerman

    It will take something truly shocking to change their minds about legislation (after Newtown, I can’t imagine what would be shocking enough, but it’s out there just waiting to happen).

    I’ve been thinking about that a lot since Newtown… honestly I didn’t think Newtown would be enough. What changed since Columbine or VA Tech? It’ll have to be a major sporting event, probably football. Even then it’ll have to be either a college team from the South, or the “right” NFL team (like the Cowboys – if its in NY or CA the nuts will all blame gun control). Stadiums are harder targets than schools, so we’ll still have a lot more mass shootings that nobody will care about first.

  72. 72
    Liberty60 says:

    @Donut:
    “Are you soft on crime? Do you support the right of citizens to be free from the fear of armed criminals?”

  73. 73
    mouse tolliver says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Then, if they happen to be stolen, or are discovered to be missing, the owner needs to immediately report this fact.

    If the registered owner does not, the registered owner is on the hook as an accessory to whatever crimes might be committed with those registered weapons.

    This. Feinstein’s assualt weapons ban isn’t retroactive, so we’ll need something like this. A potential for criminal liability for any gun owner whose weapon is used in a shooting.

  74. 74
    Donut says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    I’m not presuming to answer for anyone else, but for me it matters a great deal. Felons, especially those convicted of violent felonies, should be made to pass a pretty damn high hurdle to be allowed easy access to weapons, IMO. Someone like this asshole in NY shooting fireman should have a lot of obstacles to overcome.

    The fact that these weapons and ammo can also be obtained illegally is beside that point, too. Ymmv, but I have yet to see a rational, morally sound argument to the contrary.

  75. 75
    Donut says:

    @Liberty60:

    Do you support allowing twenty year old Adam Langa to own and operate a car, but in turn say that he shouldn’t have to register his automatic weapons and get licensed to use them?”

  76. 76
    Unabogie says:

    @trollhattan:

    Reposting. This is not true. See here.

    http://en.allexperts.com/q/2nd.....felons.htm

  77. 77
    Gex says:

    @BerkeleyMom: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11.....l&

    Yes. Read how they pwned Dave Durenberger R-MN when he balked at giving violent felons their gun rights back.

  78. 78
    PeakVT says:

    @Anya: I’d rather see Hagel go down and Obama find a Democrat for the position instead. At the same time, the attack on Hagel is so disgusting and over-the-top that I think the whole incident will discredit the Israel lobby and neocon propaganda shops like the Test Prep Daily editorial board more than help them.

  79. 79
    trollhattan says:

    @Donut:
    I’d say one clear benefit to no legal access to guns, ammo, various other weapons is if they’re caught with them, it’s a felony and it’s back to the slam they go. I’d extend that restriction beyond their parole period.

  80. 80
    Rosie Outlook says:

    @Mark S.: Plea bargaining and he probably fooled a naive psychiatrist into thinking he could be rehabilitated.

  81. 81
    Joel says:

    @TruthOfAngels: The long-game reaction is usually citing some flimsy piece of evidence about the increase of home invasions in the United Kingdom or the increase in reported homicides in Australia after their gun bans. Flimsy evidence, because it’s wrong. And with a little research, it’s pretty easy to discredit these arguments.

    But the gun fetishists will fight every bit as hard for their maximum guns as the climate denialists fight against the idea of anthropogenic climate change. Probably even harder.

  82. 82
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Keith G: this year? That MIGHT do it.

  83. 83
    MattF says:

    I wonder how much of this happens all the time, but we’re only hearing about it because the media have gotten ‘sensitized.’ Who knows. Perhaps we’re still in the early days– the next step for the NRA is ‘anger’, btw.

  84. 84
    trollhattan says:

    @Unabogie:
    Well, IIUC from your link, it’s true until a “pardon” is issued so a followup question is how common are NY “relief from civil disabilities” or pardons? What percentage of felons ask for one and what percentage are granted?

    Unless Spengler had received one, his weapons would have been illegal.

  85. 85
    Gex says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: It’s easier and cheaper to acquire weapons legally than it is to do so illegally. Likewise, if an ex-con felon is carrying weapons when it is illegal to do so, we can take the guns and throw him in jail. Not so if the weapons are legal.

    Making it legal makes it easier. Just because making it illegal doesn’t solve the problem doesn’t mean it doesn’t help. There are more points to slow or stop someone.

  86. 86
    TR says:

    @JCT:

    So convicted felons have the right to bear arms but not the right to vote? WTF?!

  87. 87
    Ruckus says:

    @Joey Maloney:
    I gotta go with Keith G here. A firing squad seems like a just fitting for little wayne and I imagine there would be no shortage of volunteers(a five mile long line with people letting certain moms and dads to go to the front) but by our very thoughts like this we perpetuate the killing mentality. It gains us nothing but a little(in my mind) warped satisfaction. And I have been guilty of this myself a few times.
    We have to do and be better.
    His remaining life in solitary confinement with a blanket on a steel bed with a steel toilet and sink in a 6×10 room with food(OK a cheese sandwich on white bread with water to wash it down) a 100 w bulb that never goes off, that should give him plenty of time to think about what a piece of shit he is.

  88. 88
    Joey Maloney says:

    @Ruckus: Can we just gut-shoot him, and leave him to die of sepsis slowly and painfully over the course of a few days? You know, like so many of those brave Confederate soldiers he idolizes.

  89. 89
    Ruckus says:

    @trollhattan:
    Unless Spengler had received one, his weapons would have been illegal.
    Do we even know if they were his weapons?

  90. 90
    Unabogie says:

    @trollhattan:

    You don’t need a pardon. You need to file that form for relief, followed by a certificate of good conduct.

    It’s described as:

    Certificate of Relief from Civil Disabilities (CRD) and, after a required waiting period, a Certificate of Good Conduct (CGC) from the sentencing court or the Parole Board.

    So all you need to do is petition the parole board and those rights can be restored. This guy would have met those standards, since by all accounts he was trouble free and his crime was committed back in 1980. He is the model for restored gun rights.

  91. 91
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @TR:

    Well, if they have the right to vote, they might not vote for Rethuglicans.

    We can’t risk that.

  92. 92
    Ruckus says:

    @Joey Maloney:
    I like your style and in a former life would probably try to play oneupmanship on ways to make little wayne suffer while bleeding to death but I am striving to be a better person. The fucking nra and their gun nuts are making that pretty dog damn hard to do though.

  93. 93
    dr. bloor says:

    @PeakVT: He killed his grandmother with a hammer in 1980. His history suggests very poor long-term social adjustment. His reference to liking to kill might or might not mean anything, although he ‘s not obviously a one-off that you wouldn’t bother matching against other bodies or arsons.

  94. 94
    Sir Nose'D says:

    I call on Congress to immediately appropriate funds for standing tactical SWAT teams to accompany all firefighters during their response calls. That would be the freedom-loving response.

  95. 95
    TS says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Spengler beat his grandmother to death.

    And his sister and mother presumably were happy living with him. Weird world it is. One of the two probably legally bought the guns – now where did we hear about a child using his parent’s guns to kill someone?

  96. 96
    Yutsano says:

    @TR: Votes do not get gun industry execs their third yacht for their daughter’s sweet 16 present.

  97. 97
    Calouste says:

    @The Dangerman: The only things that could possibly change the NRA’s mind is if someone shot up a gunshow, a shooting range or NRA HQ. Because that would destroy the argument that more guns solve everything. Although LaPierre will probably still try “If only that shooting range wasn’t a gun free zone and everyone was armed..”

  98. 98
    Anya says:

    @PeakVT: Honestly, I care more about the hold the Israeli lobby has on our foreign policy, than I care about a democrat SOD. This madness must stop and the left needs to stick with Hagel on this. The lunatics on the right and the Israeli lobby are attacking him for being insufficient warmonger.

  99. 99
    elisabeth says:

    Last night on Twitter David Frum was listing those killed by gun violence on Christmasthe Eve while Will Wheaton was live tweeting A Christmas Story. Made me laugh and cry at the same time.

  100. 100
    Gindy51 says:

    @BerkeleyMom: Maybe not a murderer but a felon of other kinds can at any gun show he or she goes to. No back ground check, HUGE loop hole. Pal of my late dad’s is convicted felon on a weapons charge (selling AK-47 to an FBI agent). He went to a gun show in LA soon after he got out of prison and picked himself up a semi automatic rifle. Still has it and he is on parole.

  101. 101
    Amir Khalid says:

    @TS:
    We don’t know anything yet about how Spengler got those weapons. Maybe they were his mother’s property, or his sister’s; and either he had access to them or he stole them. Maybe he bought them at gun shows to evade the background checks.

    As for him living with them, he was 48 when he got out of jail — unemployed, unemployable, likely with nowhere else to go. They might have felt obliged to take him in, even if they feared for their lives. I seem to recall that he got on okay with one of them, but not the other.

  102. 102
    TS says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    And maybe they had the guns for their own protection? It is not a world I understand but I cannot imagine living with someone who killed my mother/grandmother or even the mother-in-law – who despite the MIL jokes, I loved dearly for the years that she was with us.

  103. 103
    sacrablue says:

    @The Dangerman: The next incident will have to take place at a gun show.

    ETA nevermind

  104. 104
    Lojasmo says:

    What’s all the hate for Little Wayne?

  105. 105

    @Anya:
    This. Also, too: If Hagel isn’t “permitted”, then no decent candidate (of either party) will be “permitted”. It also passes up a good opportunity to point out who was, you know, wrong back in 2003– Hagel’s current critics. Such genuine STFU moments are rare in life.

    IMO the Obama admin should fight this one with the same aggression they’ve shown in dealing with Boehner.

  106. 106
    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason says:

    @Thot Gor:

    It’ll have to be a major sporting event,

    NASCAR. Stephen Hunter already wrote it: Night of Thunder

  107. 107
    Snarki, child of Loki says:

    @Thot Gor:

    I’ve been thinking about that a lot since Newtown… honestly I didn’t think Newtown would be enough. What changed since Columbine or VA Tech? It’ll have to be a major sporting event, probably football.

    To make a real change, it has to be the “blahs” that are the perpetrators, with RealAmmurikans (TM) as the victims.

    You know, it’s getting harder and harder to be upset about the idea of an incident like that…

  108. 108
    PanurgeATL says:

    @Snarki, child of Loki:

    Someone on another thread here pointed out this article a few days ago:

    The Secret History of Guns

    Black Panthers, California, 1968.

    BTW:
    If you need a Man Card, you don’t deserve one.
    If you look for someone else to issue you a Man Card, you don’t deserve one.
    If you can’t BURN THE MAN CARD YOU HAVE, you don’t deserve one.

    If the hippies were right about anything, they were right about that.

  109. 109
    BruinKid says:

    The right-wing/NRA is using this tragedy to claim that it proves our gun laws don’t work. So… get rid of them and have no laws whatsoever?

  110. 110

    This thread is almost certainly dead, but…

    The more killings right now, the less likely anything will be done about it. That would be giving liberals (and Obama) a victory. Not even a political victory, something much more important. It would prove liberals (and Obama)’s ideology is right, and conservatives are wrong. They will dig in further and further to prevent that.

  111. 111
    Paul in KY says:

    @PurpleGirl: The death penalty is a deterrent to that person ever managing to kill or seriously injure a prison guard or a fellow inmate.

  112. 112
    Paul in KY says:

    @Rosie Outlook: Given your post, you have a very ironic moniker.

  113. 113
    Cassidy says:

    Just for general awareness, one of the things that really pisses me off about this advertisement is that Bushmaster is the Natty Light of AR-15’s. I know that sounds stupid and meaningless, but FFS, every other brand of assault rifle is higher end than Bushmaster. Mossberg makes a better AR-15 that is cheaper off the rack; Mossberg is known for shotguns, fyi.

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