It May Be Factual, It May Be Cruel

your_liberal_media

Jack has a bigger point, which is not to let the NRA distract with video games, mental illness and violent movies, but calling Wayne nuts is just fine, as far as I’m concerned. First, it’s the truth. Second, it makes it harder for him to push the rest of his toxic bullshit, because who listens to insane raving? Finally, it’s very unlikely that we’re going to get any good legislation on gun safety in the next two years. There just aren’t enough House Republicans who will peel off from the rest of their insane caucus to do it. When 2014 rolls around, “your Congressman is listening to a nut” is a pretty damning line of attack.

Also, too, like most crazy crap, Wayne’s proposal is complex, expensive and unworkable. The Demand a Plan folks have a simple alternative:

1.Require a criminal background check for every gun sold in America.
2. Ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.
3. Make gun trafficking a federal crime, including real penalties for “straw purchasers”

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219 replies
  1. 1
    Handy says:

    More guns as an answer to too much gun violence is like calling for more alcohol as an answer to the drunk driving problem.

    It is insane.

  2. 2
    Professor says:

    This is the time to begin campaigning to elect congressmen/women who will VOTE for the things you want in 2014. Do NOT wait until it’s too late!

  3. 3
    Davis X. Machina says:

    ….because who listens to insane raving?

    Enough people to have elected half the Presidents in my lifetime, and half the Congress we have today.

    Democracy is based upon listening to the voice of the people, including the one the people hear in their heads.

    Oh, and has Dan Boren resigned in protest from the NRA’s board yet?

  4. 4
    MikeJ says:

    3. Make gun trafficking a federal crime, including real penalties for “straw purchasers”

    More useful, make the registered own of the gun responsible for any crime committed with it. Have your gun stolen and used in a a murder? You have an appointment with the needle. Doesn’t infringe on anybody’s constitutional rights, makes gun owners responsible.

  5. 5
    MikeJ says:

    I’ll add another idea: the “there’s no such thing as an accident” law. Possession of a gun is de facto intent. If you shoot your kid in the face while cleaning your gun you lose your child *and* go to prison.

  6. 6
    Cacti says:

    Poppy Bush’s 1995 letter of resignation from the NRA isn’t getting nearly enough press these days.

    He specifically named Wayne LaPierre as the reason.

  7. 7
    ThresherK says:

    Doesn’t the NRA support cops stopping every car coming into my “tough gun” state? And I mean ever car–not the ones that already look like they’re being used to smuggle pot (beat up old van) and crack (modern European luxmobile with too-dark tint).

    I mean, that law’s on the books, and LaPierre’s always grinding away at enforcing the current laws first.

  8. 8
    Cacti says:

    @ThresherK:

    I mean, that law’s on the books, and LaPierre’s always grinding away at enforcing the current laws first.

    Wayne LaPierre has no problem with violating the First and Fourth Amendment rights of the 296 million of us who don’t belong to the NRA, or expanding the police state for the rest of us.

    Anything to prevent reasonable regulation of his favorite instrument of death.

  9. 9
    Dan says:

    I wish confiscation was an option. Something’s gotta be done about all these guns already in circulation.

  10. 10
    Professor says:

    Why hasn’t anyone pushed for the Newtown massacre to be classified as a TERRORIST act? Any ideas or reasons – FOX News people?

  11. 11
    Tom65 says:

    Just watched Chuck Todd on MTP and wanted to put my fist through the TV. Mr. False Equivalency said that because a Democrat-controlled House nearly split the bill on the assault weapons ban twenty years ago, Obama shouldn’t force the House to act now.

    What a fucking moron.

  12. 12
    Bubblegum Tate says:

    When 2014 rolls around, “your Congressman is listening to a nut” is a pretty damning line of attack.

    Not really. These days, “nut” in political discussion means “person with whom I disagree,” so it’s a pretty meaningless line of attack. Which is a shame because Wayne LaPierre is completely fucking nuts and deserves to be ridiculed as such.

  13. 13
    schrodinger's cat says:

    OT: Not related to guns but violence. I just found out about the truly horrific assault on a young woman in Delhi, and the city has been roiled in protests

  14. 14
    bemused says:

    The other day I read a good piece (NYT iirc), NRA Protection Racket written by prof of law at the U of Minn who also served under GW Bush. A rare Republican not an apologist for the NRA.

  15. 15
    Dr. Squid says:

    I don’t know about anyone else, but tweeting is cheap. I don’t know what makes his 140 characters so much more valuable.

    Oh yeah. Villager. Serious.

  16. 16
    gnomedad says:

    The Demand a Plan folks have a simple alternative

    Hmm, has the NRA’s greatest victory been to convince its opponents that “this is complicated”?

  17. 17
    Corner Stone says:

    Spoke to one of my more strident 2nd amendment friends yesterday. They’re regrouping. Where a few days ago we had a civil discussion about how utterly wrong the idea of arming teachers was, yesterday he had shifted back to it should be their right to defend themselves and for those who didn’t want to be around guns, “it is none of their business”.

  18. 18
    WJS says:

    Yes, that’s the classic concern troll move. When someone is out there, stepping on their dick, always turn away and give them a moment of personal dignity so they can continue stepping on their dick while you maintain a high-minded sense of detachment.

    LaPierre wants to keep the focus on himself so that no one is talking about banning handguns. Oh, my. Was that a rude point of discourse? How unfair of me. I apologize profusely to the discourse police.

  19. 19
    gogol's wife says:

    @gnomedad:

    Yes, the line I keep hearing is, “That’s just too easy” (meaning gun control). No, it isn’t easy, but it’s necessary. Stop trying to change the subject.

  20. 20
    Ash Can says:

    @Dan: That’s why I like the idea of a national gun buyback, at enough of a premium over the purchase price to make it attractive. It would be a good initial step.

  21. 21
    eldorado says:

    here’s a start – repeal the protection of lawful commerce in arms act of 2005.

    it basically shields gun makers from lawsuits. that’s a concrete first step.

  22. 22
    dy says:

    There needs to be a two part strategy:

    1. Continue to attack the NRA and LaPierre in particular–make him as toxic as Rush was after the Sandra Fluke thing.

    2. Have a high profile Democratic movement to “give-back” all NRA donations, but give them to gun victim groups. Then attack the living hell out of any Republican for taking donations– make accepting donations as toxic as taking tobacco donations. There should be attack ads in every suburban district with attacking any Congresscritter who received donations, read by the survivors and victims of gun violence (similar to those ads that have been on the NYT site) — “Congressman X takes donations from Wayne LaPierre and the NRA — Join me in telling him that you want sensible gun policies not to be another gun victim like I am.”

  23. 23
    dy says:

    There needs to be a two part strategy:

    1. Continue to attack the NRA and LaPierre in particular–make him as toxic as Rush was after the Sandra Fluke thing.

    2. Have a high profile Democratic movement to “give-back” all NRA donations, but give them to gun victim groups. Then attack the living hell out of any Republican for taking donations– make accepting donations as toxic as taking tobacco donations. There should be attack ads in every suburban district attacking any Congresscritter who received donations, read by the survivors and victims of gun violence (similar to those ads that have been on the NYT site) — “Congressman X takes donations from Wayne LaPierre and the NRA — Join me in telling him that you want sensible gun policies not to be another gun victim like I am.”

  24. 24

    Which FPer is the resident Douche-hat fisker? This gem starts reeking of bullshit from the very first sentence:

    FOR a week after the Newtown shooting, the conversation was dominated by the self-righteous certainties of the American center-left.

    Douche-hat’s preferred center-left straw man? Michael Bloomberg:

    [Bloomberg’s] bedrock assumption is that the liberal paternalism with which New York is governed can and should be a model for the nation as a whole. […] It’s an assumption that cries out to be challenged by a thoughtful center-right

    …says Douche-hat, who is neither thoughtful not particularly near the center.

  25. 25
    RSA says:

    @Handy:

    More guns as an answer to too much gun violence is like calling for more alcohol as an answer to the drunk driving problem.

    But it’s a standard libertarian/Republican response to a lot of problems. The financial meltdown was due to too much rather than too little regulation of the big players. Poor people can best be helped by eliminating the minimum wage and slashing the social safety net. To improve education, eliminate public school funding. Reduce the number of abortions by taking away funding from organizations that offer inexpensive contraception. Gun violence can be best be reduced by expanding the areas where people can carry guns from 90% to 100%.

  26. 26
    wrb says:

    Seems to me that to be very effective semi-automatics and removable magazines would have to be banned. A lot more mass shootings and a hell of a lot more murders have been done with semi-automatic handguns that with “assault weapons.”

  27. 27
    Sly says:

    My current favorite distraction tactic is to focus on technical distinctions between types of weaponry that gun enthusiasts are keyed into and non-enthusiasts really don’t give a shit about, nor should they. “You don’t even know what an assault weapon is, so how can you ban it? How are we supposed to know what guns we can and cannot have without arcane technical lingo that binds them all together!”

    Like gun enthusiasts don’t know what a Title II weapon is and have any trouble identifying one, even though it includes weapons as technically diverse as machine guns, short barreled shotguns, grenade launchers, and silencers. Though they’d probably have a hard time admitting why Title II weapons are prohibitively expensive to acquire and thus are not regularly used in the commission of crimes. Hint: Government regulation.

  28. 28
    srv says:

    Tagg Romney says daddy never wanted to be President of all you sucky people!

  29. 29
    Suffern ACE says:

    Yeah, but Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler favored gun control, while Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Jesus all favored taking the law into your own hands at every opportunity. freedom.

  30. 30

    @Corner Stone:
    I’ve started a couple of arguments against concealed carry: I want concealed carry banned for all non-LEO, period. It’s a good place to start because (IMO) it’s the weakest argument the gun-fetishists have.

    There is no logical, legal or moral argument for concealed carry. I have an absolute right to choose whether or not I want to be in the same room as a weapon, just like I get to choose whether or not I sit in your car or enter your house.

    If you’re so fucking proud of your gun, why are you hiding it?

    (Sorry, I hate these people today).

  31. 31
    Sly says:

    @Judas Escargot, Bringer of Loaves and Fish Sandwiches:
    But how do their hero fantasies work if the madman knows they’re packing?

  32. 32
    Corner Stone says:

    I’m pretty sure we are not going to see any passed legislation on this issue.
    And honestly, beyond the certainty that I absolutely do not want to see armed teachers in schools, I’m not 100% sure what I would like to see happen.

  33. 33
    JPL says:

    @srv: Who was he running for if not himself? Couldn’t of been God because it is a mighty big world and he wasn’t running for dictator of the world.

  34. 34

    I have said it before: We are not going to see meaningful gun control, probably not any gun control, while Obama is president. I’d say not for years after. That’s sure as Hell not Obama’s fault, but it’s a side effect of how batshit insane they’ve gone over his election.

    I honestly think the wingers will calm down a great deal over the next few months, but that’s ‘helplessness to kick out Obama reduces their motivation’ and not any change in their pathological (as in, ‘even if it hurts me’) opposition to everything they think Obama wants. On gun control they were just humiliated. These repeated shootings have made it viscerally clear that the conservative position on guns is wrong – clear in your gut, clear on a truthiness level. That humiliation will produce enough incoherent toddler ‘nuh-uh!’ rage that they will fanatically oppose doing the right thing.

  35. 35
    Tom65 says:

    @Judas Escargot, Bringer of Loaves and Fish Sandwiches:

    Someone should remind Douthat that the “center-right” response was to suddenly get religion on mental health issues and to arm the very “union thugs” they’ve spent the last forty years reviling.

  36. 36
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Judas Escargot, Bringer of Loaves and Fish Sandwiches: Douche-hat’s preferred center-left straw man? Michael Bloomberg:

    Giuliani Republican, Connecticut For Lieberman “independent”, Iraq War supporter and fair tax opponenent Michael Bloomberg is “center left”? Of the Republican party, maybe.

  37. 37
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Corner Stone: we spend a trillion or so each year on education. I think putting the gun industry straw that drink is going to be tough for them to pass up.

  38. 38
    wrb says:

    @Judas Escargot, Bringer of Loaves and Fish Sandwiches:

    At the least, those who want to carry concealed should be required to also carry something like $10m of no-fault liability insurance.

  39. 39
    MattF says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: It’s true that they hate Obama, it’s true that when their craziness becomes Topic A, then Topic B (which may be one of various things) gets pushed aside. But they hated the Clintons, they hated Al Gore, they hate Nancy Pelosi, they would hate Joe Biden if they thought the mockery wasn’t working… the concept is clear.

    And the answer is also clear– you have to do real politics, you have to remind and persuade people about their real interests, you have to get through the distractions. It’s work, and it’s hard– but the 2012 Obama campaign showed, for once and for all (somewhat to my surprise, truth to tell) that it can be done.

  40. 40
    cmorenc says:

    @srv:

    Tagg Romney says daddy never wanted to be President of all you sucky people!

    The White House would have meant down-sizing to cheaper digs for the Romney family, the house wouldn’t have even had a car elevator! No place for Anne’s horse, either.

  41. 41

    @Tom65:
    Heh. True that.

    I still can’t get over how not wanting schoolkids to get shot is a ‘self-righteous certainty’.

  42. 42
    Mutt says:

    “straw purchasers’ face serious criminal penalties, all felonies The nitwit who bought the Columbine crazies firearms faced hundreds of years in prison, if the sentences were strung consecutively. Linda Evans, of SDS/Weather Underground/ Texas John Brown Anti Klan Committee fame got a 50 year sentence for buying (no using in a criminal manner, just buying) two pistols w/ false ID. 5 years for each signature, run consecutively. Bill Clinton pardoned her his last day in office, one of that thugs few good deeds.

  43. 43

    @MattF:
    They did not hate any of those people like they hate Obama. I have never seen anything even close to this in my lifetime. Specifically, it’s the pathological level of hatred, the willingness to publicly and large scale support policies they know will hurt themselves or they know will make their guys unelectable just because it’s not what Obama wants. They were always assholes, but now they’re crazy, and that’s a big difference.

    What the 2012 election showed was that their craziness pissed off everyone who isn’t crazy themselves. They swarmed out in huge numbers to support a candidate they didn’t like because he’s Not Obama, but everyone else swarmed out in huger numbers to oppose The Crazy.

  44. 44
    Valdivia says:

    OT and only because this just blew my mind: Tagg Romney says his Dad never wanted to be President. He was a reluctant candidate.

    I just can’t. No words. Head hits desk.

    I see @srv: got there first.

  45. 45
    dmsilev says:

    @srv: I read that enormous article in the Globe this morning (shorter: Mitt Romney’s loss was due to a whole long list of reasons, none of which were in any way Mitt Romney’s fault), and I had to wonder whether the reporter actually believed what Mittlet One was claiming.

    Also, too, a heartwarming anecdote: I flew into Boston airport last night, and took the subway to my parents’ place. At the Airport stop, there is a dedication plaque from when the new station was built in 2004. Long list of names of those responsible. Only one name out of the list was vandalized with graffiti: Mitt Romney.

  46. 46
    Alison says:

    @Valdivia: This is what they tell themselves to feel better about losing so badly, when they were SO SURE they were going to coast to a solid victory.

    It’s hilarious. And pathetic and sad. But mostly hilarious.

  47. 47
    Sly says:

    @Judas Escargot, Bringer of Loaves and Fish Sandwiches:

    The leading gun control chorister was Michael Bloomberg, and this was fitting, because on a range of issues New York’s mayor has become the de facto spokesman for the self-consciously centrist liberalism of the Acela Corridor elite.

    He forgot decadent.

    I’m always amused at lectures from coastal conservatives on the necessity of appealing to “Heartland” America, because, as everyone should know, “Heartland” Americans don’t have any kind of government to speak of, and thus the thought of any kind of governmental policy to address a pressing issue is as alien to them as an Applebee’s Salad Bar is to us.

  48. 48
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    I think it is time to treat those gun-nuts who believe they need a arsenal to defend themselves against “zee Germans” is public shunning, treat them as pariahs. I agree with some here, this outrage in Connecticut will result in nothing, in terms of any meaningful laws, very tragic, that more will die until the pushback becomes unbearable.

  49. 49
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Valdivia: I think Aesop wrote a fable about that. Something about some grapes, and a fox.

  50. 50
    MattF says:

    @cmorenc: Well, Tagg’s making an assumption there, that his dad wasn’t lying to him.

  51. 51
    dmsilev says:

    @Valdivia: You should take the time to read the whole story. It’s long, but it’s worth it for the amusement value. Things like the Romney ground-game organizers saying “we finally figured out what Obama was doing with all those staffers; they were contacting voters”.

  52. 52
    Amir Khalid says:

    @srv:
    Tagg’s dad so did not want to be President that he ran for the office twice. Yeah, right. Is Tagg inexperienced at lying, or just incompetent?

  53. 53

    Oops, Zandar was on the case down-below.

    More coffeh.

  54. 54
    Paul says:

    @Professor:

    Why hasn’t anyone pushed for the Newtown massacre to be classified as a TERRORIST act? Any ideas or reasons – FOX News people?

    Because it was done by a white guy. Same reason abortion clinic bombers are never terrorists. White and Christian – double whammy.

  55. 55
    whidby says:

    The NRA proposal for more armed people in schools probably won’t have an appreciable effect on gun violence.

    But neither will most of the dumb ass gun control proposals I have seen lately.

    Ban assault weapons? Okay, those account for about 40-50 deaths each year in this country – roughly the same number as are killed by lightning strikes on average.

    Look about 500 children are killed every year in accidental gun deaths, many by getting access to parent’s weapons. Solution – trigger locks. Better yet, free trigger locks in bins at every gun store and Wal-Mart across the land. Sure, it would cost millions of dollars – but it would have the benefit of actually doing something about a problem that is 10 times as great as the “assault weapon” problem.

  56. 56
    dmsilev says:

    From the annals of Romneyfail:

    Rich Beeson, the Romney political director who co­authored the now-discredited Ohio memo, said that only after the election did he realize what Obama was doing with so much manpower on the ground. Obama had more than 3,000 paid workers nationwide, compared with 500 for Romney, and hundreds of thousands of volunteers.

    “Now I know what they were doing with all the staffs and ­offices,” Beeson said. “They were literally creating a one-to-one contact with voters,” something that Romney did not have the staff to match.

  57. 57
    Corner Stone says:

    Oh, and BTW, I was also informed that in the case of a societal disruption against a tyrannical government, a majority of the military would join the people. 100% dead certainty about that.

    ETA, while this is a small sample size, it does seem to me indicative of a certain mindset. For a couple days they slipped the feeding tube O crazy out and looked around, but now it has been firmly reinserted. My friend hadn’t seen the NRA press lecture but did say he was seeing a lot of people in certain circles very happy about what Wayne said.

  58. 58
    Djur says:

    @Professor: Because (a) it wasn’t a terrorist act and (b) the currency of ‘TERRORISM!!’ is not what it used to be.

    What would be the point of calling it terrorism, anyway? What, are we going to throw Adam Lanza’s corpse into Gitmo?

  59. 59
    Mister Harvest says:

    The Serious People appear to have decided there are two rational positions:

    * Right-wing position: Do nothing.
    * Left-wing position: Do nothing, but shake head sadly about the horror of it all.

  60. 60
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @dmsilev:

    Our own Kay coulda told him that :-)

  61. 61
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    The first names entered into the national mental health database need to be Wayne LaPierre and the NRA board of directors.

  62. 62
    Laertes says:

    You are right and Shafer is wrong. Calling Wayne nuts is an excellent use of one’s voice. Shafer seems to think that mocking Wayne and taking his bullshit seriously are the same thing, rather than opposites.

    I suppose that’s supposed to be a deliciously contrarian stand, the sort of thing he got used to churning out over at Slate.

  63. 63
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Mister Harvest:

    This will change when a Georgetown party attended by the very serious people is disrupted by a fusilade of small arms fire, breaking scotch glasses and contaminating the cocktail weenies.

  64. 64
    gogol's wife says:

    I see Whidby is back with the comparison to lightning strikes. We can’t do anything about lightning. We can do something about the guns. And we will.

  65. 65
    aimai says:

    @MikeJ:

    Yes, I agree with this. An end to limited liability for gun “accidents” and crimes committed with your gun. If a guy can have the right to have forty seven guns he still doesn’t get the right to pretend that all violence/death/injury that flows from those guns is not “his fault.”

    aimai

  66. 66
    Jewish Steel says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Beat me to it!

  67. 67
    whidby says:

    @gogol’s wife: Let me ask you this, do you think it is better to work for solutions that will NOT prevent 50 deaths a year or ones that MAY prevent 500 deaths per year?

    And, by the way, we CAN do something about lightning, or at least about lessening deaths caused by lightning – public education. Whether or not it is worth it given the small number of deaths involved is another question.

  68. 68
    bemused says:

    @Valdivia:

    Wow. He’s been running for offices since 1994, 18 years! Poor man, it must have been so difficult for him to fight back against his “reluctance”. The whole family are a pack of blatant liars.

  69. 69
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @dmsilev:

    “Now I know what they were doing with all the staffs and ­offices,” Beeson said.

    He now knows? What, was his head too far up his ass to be able to discern this mysterious, sorcerous concept that was obviously brought to the campaign scene from deepest, darkest Kenya?

    The stupid. It BURNS!

  70. 70
    Corner Stone says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    and contaminating the cocktail weenies.

    The horror…the horror…

  71. 71
    Paul says:

    @Djur:

    You don’t think shootings of abortion doctors is terrorism? Heck, that’s the very definition of terrorism.

    Regarding whether the Newton shooting was terrorism; we don’t know whether it was or not. Or do you claim to know why he did it?

    It reminds me of norway when that guy killed some 80 people. Before it went to trial, a court psychologist pronounced the killer was legally insane. This provoked an uproar and a 2nd psychologist was appointed who pronounced the killer sane. By the way, one of the fathers to one of the victims was a muslim. He said just what I said above. When a muslim kills somebody it is terrorism. When a white guy like Breivik in Norway kills, he is insane.

  72. 72
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Yeah, right. Is Tagg inexperienced at lying, or just incompetent?

    He’s a chip off the old block, so it’s the latter.

  73. 73
    Corner Stone says:

    Man, there’s some cruel mofos around here. Culture of Truth talking about reading aloud Glen Beck’s book to innocent creatures in the woods and now Villago talking about ruining cocktail hour for similarly benign creatures, the Serious People of the Village.
    Whither The New Era of Civility that was previously imposed on us?

  74. 74
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    @Valdivia:

    So funny. Mitt loved the attention, it was the scrutiny that bothered him so.

  75. 75
    bemused says:

    @dmsilev:

    How idiotic is it for a campaign not to pay any attention to what the opposition is doing?! Or perhaps they are lying like crazy on this too. Republicans are too stupid, incompetent, amoral, arrogant and corrupt to be put in charge of anything.

  76. 76
    Jewish Steel says:

    @whidby:

    You say in your 2nd post:

    will NOT prevent 50 deaths a year

    But your 1st post says:

    Okay, those account for about 40-50 deaths each year in this country

    So which is it?

    And why can’t we do both?

  77. 77
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Mitt Romney’s problem: he surrounded himself with twits as incompetent as he is.

    To include his vile spawn.

  78. 78
    JCT says:

    As was mentioned upthread — LaPierre has given us a toehold here with his public insanity. We have to completely marginalize the NRA and by proxy their ardent nutcase supporters. They have no solutions so there is no point listening to them.

    Politicians who take money from organizations that glorify the ownership of assault rifles and large capacity magazines by anyone who can afford it need to be continually pushed to explain why they support facilitating the rights of a few to endanger the safety of all of us.
    Folks need to be reminded that we vastly outnumber them.

    And Coumo’s comment made me laugh. Only because most of these gun fetishists are happy to say that you can have their assault rifles when you pry it from their cold dead hands. Wouldn’t mind seeing their reaction when some serious firepower arrived to do just that. Besides pissing their pants because most are likely cowards.

  79. 79
    cmorenc says:

    @MattF:

    @cmorenc: Well, Tagg’s making an assumption there, that his dad wasn’t lying to him.

    To paraphrase the famous BB King song:
    “Nobody loves me but my father, and he could be jivin’ too”.

  80. 80
    Djur says:

    @Paul:

    You don’t think shootings of abortion doctors is terrorism?

    When did I say that? Of course it is.

    Regarding whether the Newton shooting was terrorism; we don’t know whether it was or not.

    If it was terrorism, we’d know why he did it. The point of terrorism is to further a specific political goal by the means of violence directed at noncombatants.

    If we find his journal somewhere and he claims a political goal, I am willing to upgrade it to ‘completely botched terrorist act’.

    When a white guy like Breivik in Norway kills, he is insane.

    Breivik’s political ends were extremely clear. He was opposed to liberal immigration policy and tolerance of Muslims, and he attacked members of a political party he believed to be responsible. He identified himself as a member of a ‘movement’ and had a manifesto. He was clearly committing terrorism. Lanza was not.

  81. 81
    Raven says:

    Hi girls and boys, reporting from the shadow of Falwell U! Took Bohdi to the emergency vet in Blacksburg at 6am and it looks like his eye(s) issue is an allergy. Amazingly the bill was not much more than a normal vet visit and the steroidal salve is something we already have for Lil Bit. Some folks asked way back on John’s late night thread so I thought I’d report.

  82. 82
    whidby says:

    @Jewish Steel: My assumption is that the most likely result of all of the recent teeth gnashing is a ban on sales of assault weapons.

    If so, there are tens of millions of those in circulation now and there will be many more in circulation when the sales ban passes because they are selling like hotcakes across the country right now.

    I concede that if there were a ban on “assault weapons” sales and every “assault weapon” in this country were confiscated that would, per force, reduce or eliminate the shootings involving “assault weapons.” But the chances of ban+seizure happening is … remote.

  83. 83
    Maude says:

    @schrodinger’s cat:
    I’ve been reading about that and the protests on BBC online. The people are outraged and aren’t stopping.

  84. 84
    Joel says:

    Jack Shafer has his moments, but he’s basically a troll.

  85. 85
    Pococurante says:

    @Corner Stone:

    … “it is none of their business”.

    Take them for a walk around what “well-regulated militia” really means. I suspect most will shut down because of course “none of their business” for no or poorly regulated are hard to reconcile.

    @Judas Escargot, Bringer of Loaves and Fish Sandwiches:

    I’ve started a couple of arguments against concealed carry: I want concealed carry banned for all non-LEO, period. It’s a good place to start because (IMO) it’s the weakest argument the gun-fetishists have.

    Actually, it is your weakest argument:

    While these crimes are often firearm-related (including unlawful carry), a 3-year study of Texas crime statistics immediately following passage of CHL legislation found that the most common crime committed by CHL holders that would be grounds for revocation was actually DUI, followed by unlawful carry and then aggravated assault. The same study concluded that Texas CHL holders were always less likely to commit any particular type of crime than the general population, and overall were 13 times less likely to commit any crime.

    Opposing assault weapons and extended magazines does make a lot more sense. Focusing on concealed carry is the drunk looking for his keys under the street instead of the dark alley where he dropped them.

  86. 86
    JCT says:

    @Raven: That’s great news! Maybe something used to clean the hotel room you stayed in?

  87. 87
    Joel says:

    Jack Shafer has his moments, but he’s basically a troll.

    As for bans, coupling with buy backs always works.

  88. 88
    Corner Stone says:

    @whidby:

    If so, there are tens of millions of those (assault rifles, ed.) in circulation now and there will be many more in circulation when the sales ban passes because they are selling like hotcakes across the country right now.

    At a gun show here in Houston this week a number of gun dealers closed their booths because they were selling more AR type rifles in a shorter period than ever before. They were worried that *they* were getting ripped off and had no idea how to price the guns!

  89. 89
    Raven says:

    @JCT: It was before we got to the room, I think it was the evergreens we HAD to drag from Georgia to Virginia because, you know, there are no pine trees here. We stayed in Blacksburg last night, Lynchburg for 2 days. What a fucking pit.

  90. 90
    Maude says:

    @Raven:
    Phew. Thank you. I am glad that was all it was.

  91. 91
    Pococurante says:

    @gogol’s wife: Ok, and these other causes of death, the ones that are more common and also “controllable” by that definition?

    Unintentional Injury 11,560 14.0
    Motor Vehicle 6,683 8.1
    Drowning 1,056 1.3
    Fire/Burn 544 0.7
    Poisoning 972 1.2
    Suffocation/Strangulation 1,263 1.5
    Firearm 138 0.2
    Homicide 3,345 4.1
    Firearm 2,186 2.7
    Suicide 1,665 2.0
    Firearm 683 0.8
    Suffocation/Strangulation 739 0.9
    Poisoning 133 0.2

  92. 92
    Atomic Butterfly says:

    @Handy:

    Why didn’t he just go for broke and advocate firearm vending machines?

  93. 93
    dmsilev says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Yeah, exactly. I mean, it’s not as if the Obama ground operation was some deep dark secret that would require the skills of a James Bond to bring to light. The basic idea and structure were well known, so if the Romney folks didn’t understand them it simply reinforces the well-kown fact that Eomney’s operation was run inside a bubble.

  94. 94
    Napoleon says:

    @Cacti:

    Really?

    I didn’t vote for him but always liked him and would not have lost sleep if he had won against Clinton.

  95. 95
    Corner Stone says:

    @Pococurante:

    Take them for a walk around what “well-regulated militia” really means. I suspect most will shut down because of course “none of their business” for no or poorly regulated are hard to reconcile.

    If you honestly think this is an effective tactic then I’m not sure what else to say to you.

  96. 96
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @cmorenc: Tagg Romney says daddy never wanted to be President of all you sucky people!

    I saw that earlier today. If it weren’t about Romneys, I could feel sorry for them. I can’t believe 1) they’re still trying to push the idea that Willard reluctantly answered the call of The People, through the voice of his wife 2) that they think there’s any point in trying to polish the turd of Willard’s reputation. The only people who want to forget his existence more than me are all Republicans not named Romney. Good luck losing that Senate primary to Chaffetz, Mittlet Number One.

  97. 97
    virginia says:

    David Gregory usually annoys the hell out of me but I thought he was pretty effective in exposing just how deranged Wayne LaPierre truly is. He’s something straight out of Dr. Strangelove. My hope is that he does many, many more interviews — and that he continue to maintain that hundreds of millions of Americans — you can’t make this stuff up! — support his particular brand of cray-cray. This is a fellow who will just keep on digging that hole so keep the shovels coming.

    I’ve love to know how much he is raking in on a yearly basis.

    There’s not much point in feeling hopeless about anything meaningful happening. The NRA “enthusiasts” will be counting on folks giving in out of cynicism and despair sometime shortly after the New Year. They will be wrong about that too.

    And, wow, who knew that Lindsay Graham was the proud owner of an assault weapon? Sometimes you just have to laugh.

  98. 98
    whidby says:

    @Joel: I love gun buy backs.

    The City of Oakland paid me $200 for a non functioning H&R .22 revolver, $200 for an RG .22 revolver that was sort of functioning, $100 for a Marlin .22 with a missing bolt.

    But something tells me that people are not going to tun in their functioning $700 AR clones for $100.

    Worth a try though. Bring on more buy back programs. The only problem I have with the gun buy backs is that they aren’t announced far enough in advance to allow me to buy up more cheap, non-functioning firearms to resell.

  99. 99
    whidby says:

    @virginia: LaPierre pulls down about $900K a years, IIRC.

  100. 100
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Valdivia:

    Yes, but you posted a link, without which it is no longer possible to separate jokes about what stupid Republicans say and news reports about what stupid Republicans say. I literally did not even consider the possibility that Tagg actually said that until I saw your hyperlink.

  101. 101
    Pococurante says:

    @Corner Stone: I didn’t say it would be effective, but in fact the opposite that they will shut down.

  102. 102
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Raven: Glad to hear it is not an injury or something degenerative. Happy news for the Bohdi pup!!

  103. 103
    JPL says:

    @Raven: How’s the pup?

  104. 104
    JPL says:

    @Pococurante: If I walk into a store and I see customers with guns and holster, I’m walking out and letting the store know why. Small businesses and corporations can’t afford to lose more customers. If companies put their money behind strong gun control, then we might see strong gun control.

  105. 105
    Jewish Steel says:

    @whidby:

    So assault weapons sales should continue apace? Eventually swelling their numbers into the hundreds of millions?

    I agree that fast acting legislation (trigger locks) is great, but why not constrict the pipe that is feeding more assault weapons into society for the sake of future Americans?

    I don’t think this is a huge political challenge. We’ve had a ban on assault weapons before and there is not a great deal of support for their continued sale.

  106. 106
    Todd says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I had an interesting experience Thursday on the assault weapons front that I previously mentioned, and is worth discussing again. For two reasons (one altruistic and the other mercenary), I decided to explore selling my WW2 leftovers. They are in great operating condition, outstanding physical condition, and would have been sold back complete with high cap mags for one and a bunch of clipped .30-06 for the other. One of my thoughts had been that now would be the time to dump them ahead of transfer restrictions, as demand is supposed to be up, and prices would be high. Plus, I was bored with them.

    I took them into the store (which was packed with camo wearing slack jaws in camo caps), and the guy at the counter advised me to hang on to them because the price for wood stock items has actually crashed due to the huge current demand for new weapons manufactured to appear military and black.

    A couple of things dawned on me:

    1. It’s all about Walter Mitty with the gun [insert negative appellation historically applied to gay men here];

    2. This country is so awash in firearms that items which should be desirable and collectible cannot hold their value;

    3. Given the constant inventory replenishment, high quality items are very nearly disposable commodities.

    The guy told me that he did a quick check online, and was as surprised as I was about how many were available at really low prices; the quotes I got were only about 60% of what I paid for them a dozen years ago. He said it was solely because of their wood stocks.

  107. 107

    @Pococurante:
    I made no claim as to CCs effects on crime.

    So, your point. It’s missing.

  108. 108
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    Whidby, I have a better idea. Ban all the fucking guns, every last one, make everyone turn them in and imprison – twenty years first offense mandatory – those who don’t.

    Then and only then will we negotiate terms on which you might be allowed to shoot one every now and then.

    That will prevent a LOT more gun deaths than your hypothetical incrementalism ever will.

    Ban them all and let God sort ’em out. Has a ring to it, don’t you think?

  109. 109
    Raven says:

    @JPL: He’s ok. Benadryl the steroid salve and a million tons of goo goo seem to have helped. He always seems jealous that Lil Bit getd 4 meds in her eyes twice a day but he may be re-thinking it.

  110. 110
    gogol's wife says:

    @Raven:

    Thanks, I’m glad to hear that.

  111. 111
    Raven says:

    @gogol’s wife: Thank you.

  112. 112
    Todd says:

    One more thing – prohibit new manufacture of swappable mags, and permit those mag sales only to/from licensed dealers. It’ll jack up the price on those floating around, and will start cutting into the numbers as existing inventories fail. If the average schmuck is in a situation where he needs one, he won’t survive the encounter anyway – he gets no more than three rounds off if someone is shooting back.

  113. 113
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    I literally did not even consider the possibility that Tagg actually said that until I saw your hyperlink.

    That was my reaction when I saw @srv: ‘s comment. I thought “Naaaaah, no way” and then googled up Tagg’s name only to find all these actual news reports that that’s exactly what he said.

  114. 114
    GMC says:

    @MikeJ: More typical over-reaction to the simple failings of an individual. The failure here occurred with the Mother of this mental cripple who thought it therapeutic to take her “child” to the gun range.
    All this talk about gun laws is just what the government wants. They and the idiots crying loudest for new gun laws know that all of the checks in the world won’t find a kook whop can get their hands on a weapon, any weapon to fulfill their fantasies, whatever they are.

    I wouldn’t be too quick to give up the right we have, endowed on us by the founding fathers, to protects ourselves from crazies like this last bozo and also to enable us as a nation under attack from both without AND WITHIN as, I’m sure millions of people are aware of right now.
    No the answer isn’t more restrictive laws. The answer is within us all in being aware of potential areas of hazard like, “Why didn’t the guys at the gun range not question the bringing of an obvious mentally unbalanced person to the gun range in the first place?”
    That’s what I’d like to know.
    No, if we allow those who have the guns to take everyone else’s guns we wind up with the bad guys in power with all of the guns…..and to that I say NO.
    I’m not a gun owner, but I believe in American’s constitutional right to own a gun, yes and even an assault rifle.
    I do agree that gun ownership is a real responsibility and that most if not all registered gun owners are law abiding citizens.
    It’s the millions of cheap handguns floating around in America that will cause the greatest harm in this country because as we decline, and people become hungry and hopeless they will use them more and more to prey on other Americans through robbery and murder, in fact they already all, but the cops are too busy busting and putting pot smokers in prison or chasing homeless people out of town.
    This event is just another marker indicating the insanity of the great decline of America as planned by the Corporatists and the Politicians in their effort to destroy American Values and political ideals.
    I don’t think they are kidding when they say we will be eating cat food.
    God Bless America and God Keep America Strong with ARMED Patriots of whom there are not enough!

  115. 115
    gogol's wife says:

    @Jewish Steel:

    This person is not arguing in good faith. He’s sent here by somebody (I wonder who) to depress talk about doing something. He was never here before Friday, Dec. 14.

  116. 116
    GMC says:

    @MikeJ: More typical over-reaction to the simple failings of an individual. The failure here occurred with the Mother of this mental cripple who thought it therapeutic to take her “child” to the gun range.
    All this talk about gun laws is just what the government wants. They and the idiots crying loudest for new gun laws know that all of the checks in the world won’t find a kook who can get their hands on a weapon, any weapon to fulfill their fantasies, whatever they are.

    I wouldn’t be too quick to give up the right we have, endowed on us by the founding fathers, to protect ourselves from crazies like this last bozo and also to enable us as a nation under attack from both without AND WITHIN as, I’m sure millions of people are aware of right now.
    No the answer isn’t more restrictive laws. The answer is within us all in being aware of potential areas of hazard like, “Why didn’t the guys at the gun range not question the bringing of an obvious mentally unbalanced person to the gun range in the first place?”
    That’s what I’d like to know.
    No, if we allow those who have the guns to take everyone else’s guns we wind up with the bad guys in power with all of the guns…..and to that I say NO.
    I’m not a gun owner, but I believe in American’s constitutional right to own a gun, yes and even an assault rifle.
    I do agree that gun ownership is a real responsibility and that most if not all registered gun owners are law abiding citizens.
    It’s the millions of cheap handguns floating around in America that will cause the greatest harm in this country because as we decline, and people become hungry and hopeless they will use them more and more to prey on other Americans through robbery and murder, in fact they already are, but the cops are too busy busting and putting pot smokers in prison or chasing homeless people out of town.
    This event is just another marker indicating the insanity of the great decline of America as planned by the Corporatists and the Politicians in their effort to destroy American Values and political ideals.
    I don’t think they are kidding when they say we will be eating cat food.
    God Bless America and God Keep America Strong with ARMED Patriots of whom there are not enough!

  117. 117
    smith says:

    Trying to do some research, ended up on a pro-gun forum. I mean, seriously, there were people there arguing that people who are mentally ill should be able to keep their guns because “who defines what mentally ill is?”

    They are back to their talking points and they are digging in firmer than ever before.

  118. 118
    Forum Transmitted Disease says:

    @Todd: What’s on that list of yours? I’m looking for a good 30-06 and would prefer wood stocked guns.

    Email me at 7532771 (at) gmail.com if you don’t want to post the list online – I wouldn’t.

  119. 119
    Napoleon says:

    @whidby:

    Okay, those account for about 40-50 deaths each year in this country – roughly the same number as are killed by lightning strikes on average.

    Really? How do you know that, because the Republicans a few years ago passed a law that blocks US Gov. from releasing that info. So where does your info come from?

  120. 120
    Corner Stone says:

    @GMC:

    God Bless America and God Keep America Strong with ARMED Patriots of whom there are not enough!

    If you believe that, then why are you not a current gun owner?

  121. 121
    Todd says:

    @GMC:

    Ah, right. You’re all about fear of urban “others”, but encourage the profligate supply of man-murdering bullet sprayers so all those rough, tough, tobacco chawin’, camo wearing, Waler Mitty suburban/exurban pieces of trembly trailer trash filth can take care of those “others”.

    Fuck you.

  122. 122
    Jewish Steel says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    Are we important enough for someone to be sent to argue with us? I mean, I feel pretty important but…

    Whidby can used to test the strength of the gun-loathing liberal position (mine, to be sure) against the gun-liking Democratic (there are many of these) position.

  123. 123
    Corner Stone says:

    @GMC:

    “Why didn’t the guys at the gun range not question the bringing of an obvious mentally unbalanced person to the gun range in the first place?”
    That’s what I’d like to know.

    You’ve obviously never been to a gun range. It isn’t like trying to board a plane in Israel.

  124. 124
    whidby says:

    @Jewish Steel: I try to distinguish between what I would like to see and what is likely to happen. Right now – the fight is all about “assault weapons” I don’t care if that happens. It won’t affect me for a variety of reasons. But the positive results of that will be negligible.

    @Forum Transmitted Disease: It might be better to advocate feasible solutions.

  125. 125
    Jewish Steel says:

    @Corner Stone:

    If you believe that, then why are you not a current gun owner?

    Because he is actually a math prof from Upstate NY?

  126. 126
    Pococurante says:

    @JPL:

    If I walk into a store and I see customers with guns and holster, I’m walking out and letting the store know why.

    I would too. But a person obeying CHL isn’t going to be flaunting their gun anyway – that’s illegal and they would be arrested, and you’d be well within your rights to call the cops. Also at least in all states I am aware of that have CHL all building owners and shop keepers can post signs that prohibit on site carry.

  127. 127
    the Conster says:

    How is being called crazy, “winning” other than to Charlie Sheen?

  128. 128
    JCT says:

    @Corner Stone:

    You’ve obviously never been to a gun range. It isn’t like trying to board a plane in Israel.

    This. I have walked out of gun ranges because of folks in the next lane saying really crazy stuff. Almost as nerve-wracking as poor gun-handling skills.

    And again, the paranoia that these guys espouse is probably on the diagnosable spectrum.

  129. 129
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Jewish Steel:

    Oh SNAP. You win ’em all today.

  130. 130
    whidby says:

    @gogol’s wife: Paranoia isn’t limited to nutty gun owners it seems.

    @Napoleon: ? There have been several articles in the past week that tallied “assault weapon” deaths over the past couple of decades – primarily to see whether the “assault weapons ban” had any effect. There have been several of those charts posted in threads on BJ in the past week. I don’t have any handy, but look around.

  131. 131
    Joel says:

    @GMC: WOLVERINES!

  132. 132
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jewish Steel: Doesn’t feel right, but with that fruit loop you never know. Especially since he’s in his post breakup Blue Period.

  133. 133
    trollhattan says:

    @Napoleon:
    Only his proctologist knows for sure.

    The lightning thing is one of an endless flock of canards the gun fetishists have to select from. We figured out generations ago to put lightning rods on homes, buildings and structures, without which we’d doubtless have lots more lightning deaths and house fires. Reducing the fresh flow of high-capacity guns seems like a nice form of lightning rod to me.

  134. 134
    Corner Stone says:

    @whidby:

    @gogol’s wife: Paranoia isn’t limited to nutty gun owners it seems.

    There are a few here that seem to have had an emotional break with reality. Mrs. Gogol appears to be one of them.

  135. 135
    Corner Stone says:

    Wayne LaPierre is the physical synthesis of every asshole Republican politician I have ever seen on TV throughout my lifetime.
    Just an amalgam of smarmy, banality, stupidity, greed, corruption and evil.

  136. 136
    gogol's wife says:

    @Corner Stone:

    GFY.

  137. 137
    Djur says:

    @Forum Transmitted Disease:

    That will prevent a LOT more gun deaths than your hypothetical incrementalism ever will.

    Other than the many, many cops, gun nuts, and innocent bystanders who would die during the mass confiscation.

  138. 138
    Napoleon says:

    @whidby:

    There have been several articles in the past week that tallied “assault weapon” deaths over the past couple of decades – primarily to see whether the “assault weapons ban” had any effect. There have been several of those charts posted in threads on BJ in the past week. I don’t have any handy, but look around.

    Color me skeptical since a government data base to generate such numbers on national basis is not available by law. Someone (ie, a private party) would have to piecemeal assemble such numbers from God knows how many sources, to the extent they are available in any form, from public sources that report what weapons are used in crimes.

  139. 139
    Jewish Steel says:

    @whidby: Again, I don’t see an assault weapon ban as a heavy lift. Their worst case use is right in the name: ASSAULT. I am certain a ban will be included in any legislation package. Uncontroversially so.

  140. 140
    whidby says:

    Insult removed.

  141. 141
    Corner Stone says:

    @gogol’s wife: There, there dear. Perhaps you should lay down for a while, eh?

  142. 142
    gogol's wife says:

    @whidby:

    I just wonder why I’ve never seen you here before Dec. 14, 2012, and I never see you comment on anything other than gun control, and I never see you do anything but try to discourage discourse about how we might start to do something about the gun madness. Sorry if I’m emotional about 20 dead babies, that’s just me, I guess.

  143. 143
  144. 144
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jewish Steel:

    Their worst case use is right in the name: ASSAULT.

    It’s a nebulous term that is poorly defined. It’s like a Frank Luntz move, actually.

  145. 145
    trollhattan says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    Seems like a fair question. And has anybody seen him and UNLIMITED CORPORATE CASH in the same place?

  146. 146
    Jewish Steel says:

    @whidby: In Mrs Gogol’s defense, your arguments aren’t very consistent. Or good.

  147. 147
    whidby says:

    @Jewish Steel: Let’s clarify: I think that the most likely outcome if any is a ban on prospective sales. We disagree about the ease of enacting that at least on a national level. (It’s already the law here in California.) I think there will be a huge fight. We’ll see.

    I don’t think there will be a total ban on ownership.

    And, I assume you’re aware that the “assault weapon” ban as previously enacted was primarily about cosmetics. The Ruger Ranch rifle that Brevik used to kill 70 or 80 people was never included in the “assault weapon ban.” That’s why fighting for an “assault weapon” ban seems pointless to me.

  148. 148
    Todd says:

    @JCT:

    This. I have walked out of gun ranges because of folks in the next lane saying really crazy stuff. Almost as nerve-wracking as poor gun-handling skills.
    And again, the paranoia that these guys espouse is probably on the diagnosable spectrum.

    I watched some dumb ass get thrown off a range this summer, arguing the whole time. It was a great lesson for my daughter to hear.

  149. 149
    whidby says:

    @gogol’s wife: “Sorry if I am emotional about 20 dead babies”?

    Seriously?

    Get over yourself.

  150. 150
    whidby says:

    @Jewish Steel: I am not surprised that you think so.

    Your ability to reason about this is as tenuous as you grasp of the facts.

    ETA: Your insult doesn’t even make sense: The fact that I am not good and inconsistent somehow lends credence to the idea that I am paid to do this? Dumb.

  151. 151
    aimai says:

    @whidby:

    “Paranoia isn’t limited to gun owners”–sure, but we only really need to worry about the asshole gun owners because when someone without a gun gets paranoid he very rarely manages to hurt anyone.

    The world isn’t divided, as that moron GMC or whatever seems to think, into good peopel and bad people, patriots and non patriots–its divided into people who can control their impulses and people who can’t. Sometimes the control is internal and sometimes its external–throwing guns into the mix in many households is simply asking for trouble. Put a gun into the hands of someone who is easily agitated and its going to go off at some point.Its not just a Chekhovian dramatic necessity its a fact of human existence. More guns in more households or more social situations means more chances for more idiots to make a bad choice–a split second bad choice with irreversible consequences. Ask the father who went out to sell one of his guns and “accidentally” shot his 7 year old to death when getting back into the car. Ask the Uncle who left a loaded gun where his three year old nephew could shoot himself.

    As for the notion that guns enable people to actually protect themselves from an out of control family member or home invader–nonsense. As we all know by now the woman shot by her boyfriend in front of her 3 month old child was a co-owner of 8 guns in the house. The power is all on the side of the least rational and quickest to act. Guns didn’t even up her power with her football playing boyfriend. Guns enabled him to make a split second bad decision which he then couldn’t come back from.

    Anyway, to get to my real point: fuck off and die.

  152. 152
    Jewish Steel says:

    @Corner Stone:

    he’s in his post breakup Blue Period.

    What? B’aw! That’s too bad.

    It’s a nebulous term that is poorly defined

    I’m sure. Defining is part of the sausage-making and I’ll bet I won’t find it restrictive enough. But it’s better than nothing.

  153. 153
    quannlace says:

    Was watching ‘Miracle On 34th Street” for the ump-teenth time, and always smile at the line when they find out Kris really believes he’s the real Santa Claus.

    “Maybe he’s only a little crazy, like painters or composers, or like some of those men in Washington…”

    Some?

  154. 154
    Raven says:

    @aimai: Makato

  155. 155
    whidby says:

    @Napoleon: Those are the numbers we have and I’ve seen them quoted from both sides of the debate. I think the FBI reported that “only” about 300 people are killed each year by rifles _of any type_. So it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that the number killed by the subset that are “assault rifles” would be about 50.

  156. 156

    The NRA spent, what, $11 million or so on the last election? And most of their candidates lost.

    Maybe the NRA should pay for these armed security guards at our schools instead of trying to buy our elections? Let’s see how their membership likes having their dues put to that use.

  157. 157
    whidby says:

    @aimai:

    In another thread I stated that Obama has killed more children via drone strikes this year than died in school shootings.

    You responded:

    This is demonstrably false. More children have been killed in school shootings on an annual basis than are killed by drone strikes.

    I responded:

    I am happy to be corrected, but I think your numbers are wrong:
    “The Bureau of Investigative Journalism reported last August that in Pakistan’s tribal areas alone, there are at least 168 credible reports of children being killed in drone strikes.”
    http://www.theatlantic.com/pol…..ld/266453/

    Now, apparently you have dropped the “This is demonstrably false” argument in favor of cheap insults. I don’t doubt that your main point is “Go fuck yourself.” That’s because you ain’t got any facts.

    You just make stupid shit up and then when somebody has the temerity to introduce facts that conflict with your conclusions, well, obviously that person is just an asshole.

    Perhaps you should try to adjust your thinking to reality instead of just insulting it.

  158. 158
    Raven says:

    This blog is becoming all shit head all the time. What a fucking waste.

  159. 159
    f space that says:

    @whidby: Eat some waffles.

  160. 160
    Jewish Steel says:

    @whidby: You vacillate between what you declare the most likely then the most pragmatic outcome. In one sentence coldly examine the facts and then in the next snap your fingers and claim you “don’t care.” Classic bad faith.

    The fact that I am not good and inconsistent somehow lends credence to the idea that I am paid to do this?

    You think paid trolls (I don’t think you are one) are skilled?

  161. 161
    Lojasmo says:

    @GMC:

    Why didn’t the guys at the gun range not question the bringing of an obvious mentally unbalanced person to the gun range in the first place

    When I went to the range (when I still had a handgun) the owner never even looked at me.

  162. 162
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @whidby:

    It’s high time that you found yourself a fire to die in.

  163. 163
    Amir Khalid says:

    @GMC:
    I’ve heard this argument before, that the second amendment is a necessary and useful check against a potentially oppressive government. It has never impressed me. As given therein, militias are for maintaining the security of the state; not for armed rebellion against it, justifiable or not. This security function is now served by police and the National Guard. That there are nearly as many guns as there are people in America is not something to be proud of, and it’s not what guarantees your democracy or liberty.

    Ask yourself: does it make sense for a country to confer on its citizens a constitutional right to armed rebellion? Do you seriously believe that such a rebellion — equipped only with small arms, even fully automatic ones — could be anything more than a bloody but futile gesture? If you do, try making your case to someone like the front-pager Soonergrunt, and see how he responds.

    You do have a unique problem in America with small arms so widely and needlessly available, and for so long, that some people own them by the dozen. That the careless, the reckless, and the mentally unstable have access to them is a danger to the American public. There are other dangers, true, but that’s no reason not to act on this one.

  164. 164
    aimai says:

    @Raven:
    Well, sure, but on the other hand the very fact that people like whidby have been detailed to explain to us all that there is no point in doing anything reveals how very, very, very, frightened the gun lobby is that something will be done. And remember–they don’t care at all about the rights of gun owners to retain guns already bought. As far as they are concerned last year’s profits are irrelevant. They are actually worried about a ban on future gun sales because they can only continue to exist as long as their products are legal. The vast majority of gun owners in this country are actually too pussy to be buying and storing guns if it is outright illegal. Sure, a few of them are happy to be criminal gun owners but the vast, vast, majority of these not-even-weekend-warrior gun bunnies are either too lazy or too scared to break the law. And the lifestyle marketers of the NRA/gun lobby know it. If you are selling an ego enhancer to a loser, like Whidby, you know that as soon as the ego boost is outweighed by the fear you need a new market.

    aimai

  165. 165
    whidby says:

    @Jewish Steel: Nope. Just an understanding that whatever happens regarding “assault weapons” that it won’t affect me personally, for a variety of reasons.

    I don’t understand why you think that is “bad faith.” That presumes that one has to be personally invested in a policy matter to be acting in good faith.

    Seriously. I don’t see where you are coming from on this.

    I’ve stated several times that if anything is going to happen on a national level, an ban on prospective sales of assault weapons will be the most likely outcome.

    I think that is not really worth fighting over since it will only, at most, affect about 50 deaths a year. (And that probably not even that since there will be millions more assault weapons in private hands by the time a ban passes.)

    I have also said repeatedly that it would be better to focus on non-controversial measures (gun locks) that might actually make a difference. But those aren’t very exciting to people who have a hard-on for or against guns.

    Finally, I personally think it would be best that only single-shot centerfire rifles are permitted for hunting of large game in this country. I hunt and I absolutely detest hunters who rely on firepower instead of accuracy. But I know that ain’t going to happen, either.

  166. 166
    Raven says:

    @whidby: No fucking body gives a shit what you say.

  167. 167
    Lojasmo says:

    @whidby:

    The Ruger Ranch rifle that Brevik used to kill 70 or 80 people was never included in the “assault weapon ban.” That’s why fighting for an “assault weapon” ban seems pointless to me.

    You mean in the attack that took place on an island where there was NO police force present? Good argument, tool.

  168. 168
    whidby says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    It’s high time that you found yourself a fire to die in.

    Its not really surprising that people in this country shoot up schools, when people think that comments like this are appropriate.

    @Lojasmo: The point of that comment was that it didn’t matter in that context whether his Ruger ranch rifle was called an “assault weapon” or not –he was able to kill just as many people with that as he would have been able to kill with a AR variant.

    Same in this country. A Ruger ranch rifle with a 30 round magazine is just as deadly with an AR variant with a 30 round magazine.

  169. 169
    JPL says:

    @Raven: thank u for the info on the dog. Glad that he is doing okay. The wind the other day downed an old pine from my neighbor’s yard, so he was out there today chopping it up. I have a chained link fence that was smashed, so he pulled it up high enough so the mutt would be protected.

  170. 170
    JPL says:

    @Raven: thank u for the info on the dog. Glad that he is doing okay. The wind the other day downed an old pine from my neighbor’s yard, so he was out there today chopping it up. I have a chained link fence that was smashed, so he pulled it up high enough so the mutt would be protected.

  171. 171
    shortstop says:

    Paid trolls are not actually that common. The persistent propagandizers are usually just assholes with obsessive tendencies and not much to do.

  172. 172
    Raven says:

    @JPL: It was really blowing going up over Fancy Gap yesterday!

  173. 173
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    @Amir Khalid: Thank You for bringing that point out. The founding fathers never trusted the citizens, as a matter of fact, George Washington would send a militia to crush the Whiskey Rebellion, a revolt by farmers against the taxation of whiskey. Alexander Hamilton was tasked to lead that militia. They don’t teach that at your favorite local Liberty/Heritage/Freedom Baptist Christian Academy. There is a reason they did put in the words Well Regulated Militia when they drafted the 2nd Amendment.

  174. 174
    Corner Stone says:

    @Raven: If you don’t like it then why don’t you go back to FDL where you came from?

  175. 175
    Lojasmo says:

    @whidby:

    ETA: Your insult doesn’t even make sense: The fact that I am not good and inconsistent somehow lends credence to the idea that I am paid to do this? Dumb.

    Please familiarize yourself with the campaigns of both Hillary Clinton in the 2008 primary (Specifically Mark Penn) and Mitt Romney in the 2012 general (everybody associated with the campaign, including the candidate.

  176. 176
    Corner Stone says:

    @f space that:

    Eat some waffles.

    Damn. That sounds kind of good. I just had some cold roasted chicken for lunch. I bet that would have been awesome with some hot waffles, butter and honey.

  177. 177
    WaterGirl says:

    @Tom65:

    Chuck Todd … What a fucking moron.

    Ah, but you repeat yourself.
    As soon as you say Chuck Todd, what a fucking moron goes without saying. :-)

  178. 178
    Raven says:

    @Corner Stone: You talkin to me numbnuts?

  179. 179
    WaterGirl says:

    @dmsilev:

    “we finally figured out what Obama was doing with all those staffers; they were contacting voters”.

    That really is funny. Wow.

  180. 180
    Ash Can says:

    @gogol’s wife: Whidby is a transparent NRA psy-ops plant and Corner Stone is his usual attention-whore self. You’ve made more sense here in this thread than both of them in all of their comments on this entire site put together.

  181. 181
    Corner Stone says:

    @Raven: Yep, douchebag. I am.

  182. 182
    whidby says:

    @Ash Can:

    Whidby is a transparent NRA psy-ops plant

    There should be some way to see whether or not people agree with statements like that as part of the mental health background check required for gun purchases.

  183. 183
    Corner Stone says:

    @Ash Can: Oh, the “Attaboy Troll”. Just in time for Christmas shopping!

  184. 184
    Raven says:

    @Corner Stone: Well motherfucker, since I’m banned and I have no intention of using some other email the register I’ll be staying here until the dude that runs the blog says different. You and whidby make a great pair.

  185. 185
    Corner Stone says:

    @Raven: No, you’re the motherfucker who’s always first in line to challenge people why they are here when they utter a complaint about anything. So, you get to go eat shit and fuck yourself when you do the same thing.
    Enjoy.

  186. 186
    Raven says:

    @Corner Stone: No one was talking to you asshole.

  187. 187
    Corner Stone says:

    @Raven: This Texans game is just boring the shit outta me.

  188. 188
    whidby says:

    @Raven: Well, you like dogs, so you can’t be all bad.

    But you might want to give the e-tough posturing a rest.

    But I’ve got bread to bake, so this thread is all yours.

    Happy solstice.

    Be the change you want to happen next year!

  189. 189
    Raven says:

    @Corner Stone: I knew that was it. Fucking Lynchburg has this awful Steelers game and the Skins.

  190. 190
    Raven says:

    @whidby: stuff a pike

  191. 191
    Ruckus says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    Any zomney inexperienced at lying? I do believe that you have misspoke.

  192. 192
    Amir Khalid says:

    Is this what happens when you don’t keep up with your rabies shots?

  193. 193
    JPL says:

    @Raven: There’s a football thread now. I’m taking off fifteen minutes and then I’ll finish the prep for xmas eve.

  194. 194
    Ruckus says:

    @whidby:
    That is so fucked up that I can barely believe a human could utter the words. No, that’s wrong, I’ve met a few gun humpers before, human can’t describe anyone with more empathy for a piece of deadly steel than another human.
    You can only be a gun fetish troll. As she pointed out your only comments are negative about doing anything about guns. Go hump whatever piece of cold steel that makes you feel better and leave the conversation to the adults. Just be sure to wipe off after so they can still kill.
    Asshole.

  195. 195
    Another Halocene Human says:

    Love Demand a Plan! So simple and effective. I would add point 4: redistributive taxes (ESTATE TAX).

  196. 196
    JoyfulA says:

    @JPL: On a long trip, we stopped for dinner at a highly recommended North Carolina barbecue joint. On our way in the door, coming out was a thuggish-looking man wearing a holster and a gun.

    We continued in the restaurant. It seemed safer than walking through the parking lot with the thug.

    The barbecue was good. But I’m never stopping in North Carolina again if I can help it.

  197. 197
    Betty Cracker says:

    I find those tabloid covers up top kind of encouraging. The NRA has always been an extremist organization, but if the wingnut rags are recognizing that thanks to LaPierre’s performance, well, yay?

  198. 198
    Cacti says:

    @Napoleon:

    Really? I didn’t vote for him but always liked him and would not have lost sleep if he had won against Clinton.

    Yup.

    Poppy Bush resigned his lifetime membership in the NRA following the OKC bombing, when Wayne LaPierre reitirated his stance on federal employees being “jack-booted thugs”.

  199. 199
    Paul says:

    @Cacti:

    Poppy Bush resigned his lifetime membership in the NRA following the OKC bombing, when Wayne LaPierre reitirated his stance on federal employees being “jack-booted thugs”.

    I guess the NRA doesn’t think too highly of our military then…

  200. 200
    Joe Buck says:

    What is more interesting about this is that Murdoch appears to have broken with the gun lobby. What will the effect by on the Murdoch-owned Fox News?

  201. 201
    Cacti says:

    @Southern Beale:

    Maybe the NRA should pay for these armed security guards at our schools instead of trying to buy our elections? Let’s see how their membership likes having their dues put to that use.

    I understand the sentiment, but would you really want a group providing security that counts Ted Nugent among its board of directors?

  202. 202
    Donut says:

    @Dr. Squid:

    Thank you – my thought was that only journalists of a certain , shall we say, caste, believe that Twitter imparts “precious” information to anyone.

  203. 203
    Corner Stone says:

    Woops. Wrong thread.

  204. 204
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Amir Khalid: It’s not fear of the state. It’s fear of the victims of the state, and their potential for seeking violent redress. All those guns are necessary in the event of a servile rebellion.

    Denmark Vesey and Nat Turner write firearms policy and law in this country, from beyond the grave, and after a century and a half.

  205. 205
    TG Chicago says:

    Ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.

    I forget where, but I read a suggestion that I liked: let’s stop using the term “assault weapons” and start using the term “massacre weapons”.

    Why pretend that these weapons have any remotely legitimate civilian use?

  206. 206
    Corner Stone says:

    @Davis X. Machina: No mention of H. Rap Brown this time?

  207. 207
    David in NY says:

    Make gun trafficking a federal crime, including real penalties for “straw purchasers”

    There are real penalties for straw purchasers, at least north of the Mason-Dixon line. (I occasionally represent them.) Gun trafficking by unlicensed people is a federal crime, but there are those gun fairs and trafficking that is actually, currently illegal, etc.

    So no. 3 is pretty incoherent — though it shouldn’t detract from the point that there is a fix here. Unfortunately, the fix will probably not include one worthy element — a provision requiring jurors below the Mason-Dixon line to convict people charged with illegal trafficking, when the evidence shows that they did. A good share of guns in NYC come up here from the South, and the prosecutors down there won’t pursue the issue, because juries acquit so much.

  208. 208
    👽 Martin says:

    @Joe Buck:

    What is more interesting about this is that Murdoch appears to have broken with the gun lobby. What will the effect by on the Murdoch-owned Fox News?

    Don’t get too far ahead of things. It was two NYC papers. No local publication is going to go broke in NYC taking an anti-gun stance. Coming out against the NRA is about the least controversial change of position they could possibly have taken.

  209. 209
    Poopyman says:

    LaPierre is certainly not nuts. He’s a whore, plain and simple, and this blizzard of chaff is all he’s got.

    Keep your focus on the guns, people.

  210. 210
    Mike G says:

    Ironically for assholes who used to sneer at John Kerry for being fluent in French or “looking French”, the teatards cringe enthusiastically for a jerk with the name “La Pierre”.

  211. 211
    Triassic Sands says:

    When 2014 rolls around, “your Congressman is listening to a nut” is a pretty damning line of attack.

    I think I’d go with “Your representative is being controlled by a lunatic.”

    Stronger, and more accurate.

  212. 212
    Triassic Sands says:

    @Handy:

    More guns as an answer to too much gun violence is like calling for more alcohol as an answer to the drunk driving problem.

    Bingo! You got that right. Because eventually, sooner rather than later, all the drunken drivers will kill each other and the problem will be solved. Of course, we would have to accept a few hundred thousand or more “innocent” deaths, but, hey, that’s the price you pay for living in a free society.

  213. 213
    Platonicspoof says:

    @Jewish Steel:
    My immediate impression, too, although not for any conscious reason.

    Which can only mean he’s poisoned my unconscious.

    Somewhat later, the “History” 2 channel revealed that the spoofer of all Very Serious Media and Pundits may be the re-incarnation of Ben Franklin.

  214. 214
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    @👽 Martin:

    It was two NYC papers. No local publication is going to go broke in NYC taking an anti-gun stance.

    But the NYC tabloids’ demographic is decidedly not the cliché of “coastal liberals”, and their circulation is higher than the population of one or two states. Urban conservatives are your wedge here.

  215. 215
    The Sailor says:

    @whidby: ““The Bureau of Investigative Journalism reported last August that in Pakistan’s tribal areas alone, there are at least 168 credible reports of children being killed in drone strikes.””

    That’s in 8 years. Avg: 21/year

    A total of 5,740 children and teens died in 2008 and 2009, the two years after the Virginia
    Tech shooting, according to the most recent data from the federal Centers for Disease Control and
    Prevention.
    https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:tOm8OUxGPMcJ:www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/protect-children-not-guns-2012.pdf+number+children+killed+guns+per+year&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgilUCbB4H05QfweieWv5MY6G6V-p3O94I1QI4Ok29RYasN19-nmSYfVGSWlpohL0aTQaChCDfH1XbbREd3wltgOS1F5oWdsSw88uuejZRkugYqLV64DTJU7qkH1Ol0MneolZeW&sig=AHIEtbTnnOLrsKv2DagFirr_hKV3ZRxdLA

  216. 216
    Plantsmantx says:

    Everybody plays the fool sometime
    There’s no exception to the rule
    Listen, baby, it may be factual, may be cruel
    I ain’t lyin’, everybody plays the fool

    …now, I have an earworm.

  217. 217
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Corner Stone: Audience adaptation. No one knows who he. is. You have to be over 50. The other two gents are in a sidebar in all the 11th grade American history texts.

    Dante Atkins at DKos making the same point….

    I won’t mince words: I firmly believe that many of the people who want to be prepared to kill a lot of other people are suburban and exurban whites who think they will get the opportunity to kill a lot of black people if and when the social order ever breaks down. While some may consider this outrageous, it’s really not: All it takes is a brief visit to Free Republic or any other such outlet to see posters actively fantasizing about the breakdown in the social order so they can:
    __

    […] deliver what they deserve, 9mm from a MAC-11. 900 RPM.

  218. 218
    different-church-lady says:

    Not to mention the idea that your 140 is “precious”. It’s like saying, “Hey don’t waste those precious velcro wrap thingies they sometimes use to hold heads of long leaf lettuce together.”

  219. 219
    different-church-lady says:

    @Judas Escargot, Bringer of Loaves and Fish Sandwiches:

    DOUCHE-HAT: FOR a week after the Newtown shooting, the conversation was dominated by the self-righteous certainties of the American center-left.

    No, for about a week after the Newtown shooting the conversation was dominated by the everyone’s FUCKING SHOCK, REPULSION AND HORROR YOU GOD DAMNED INHUMAN FUCK EXCUSE OF A “JOURNALIST”.

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