Indicators of Action

Grief vs. rage. I’ve been going back and forth since Friday. I have two elementary school aged kids. Newtown hit me hard. But in the end, I’m a fucking pussy. I’ll blog. I’ll vote. I’ll organize. I’ll give money. But none of that requires me to leave my home, to sacrifice, to make a commitment. I’m a fucking pussy.

I appreciate the importance of healing. I respect and honor the need of victims to work through their grief. I weep — literally — at the images of communities coming together to support the victims of tragedy.

But none of that really makes a difference. You know when change will occur? It will not occur just because people come together to mourn. It will happen when people are so angry, so desperate that they act.

The evidence of action will not be a candlelight vigil. Action will only come when people instead, spontaneously mass at the NRA HQ and torch it. When they mob Congressional offices and shut them the fuck down. When gun dealers and shooting ranges are protested 24/7.

We’re not there yet. But we’ll get there. I wish I could be leading the effort. But I can’t. I’m a fucking pussy.






181 replies
  1. 1

    Maybe you could have dedicated this post to actual ways to organize? Links to organizations with a legitimate gun safety message? Instead of just calling yourself a pussy over and over again?

    Just a suggestion for the future.

  2. 2
    Carl Nyberg says:

    The liberal knee-jerk approach is to make government responsible.

    My suggestion is to get government out of the gun control business.

    Instead, responsibility should belong to the people who decide who gets firearms: the dealers.

    If the people who sell guns pay a fine when the guns they sold are used illegally then the responsibility will be with the people who have the power to make a difference.

    And government can play a minimal role.

    I wrote a solution that emphasizes the private sector and states rights on my blog. Click my name.

    If you like the idea, share it and discuss it.

  3. 3
    greenergood says:

    Quoted (and severely edited) from a blog I read the other day but may be even this one, so unoranizeded am I:
    ‘[If] the Executive cannot simply mandate gun control, the Legislative will not pass gun control, and the Judicial has said gun control violates the Second Amendment, how can this problem be fixed?

    If you want to stop guns, go after the manufacturers and the lobbyists. Period. Guns are a product, sold in the US. They have arguably the most po
    werful product lobby on Earth. You’re going to need to start with them.

    That time has come.’

    Time to go after the gun lobby and the NRA, state … by … state – takes time, just the way Civil, Women’s, Gay, Disabled Rights took, and still are taking, time, aka known as the ‘long arc of the moral universe that bends towards justice’: thx MLK. Eyes on the prize.

  4. 4
    Corner Stone says:

    God. Take a hot shower and turn off the TV.

  5. 5
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Carl Nyberg:

    If the people who sell guns pay a fine when the guns they sold are used illegally then the responsibility will be with the people who have the power to make a difference.
    __
    And government can play a minimal role.

    I don’t think those two statements go together quite like you think they do.

  6. 6
    Linnaeus says:

    I wish I could be leading the effort.

    Not everyone can be a “leader”, whatever that means in this context. The things you mentioned – voting, organizing, etc. – are what we need to do. They’re how anything gets done in our republic. Every bit helps, and you don’t need to be a leader to do them.

  7. 7
    beltane says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: Fine require government action. The free market response would be to have these gun dealers, who invariably seem to be hardcore wingnuts, reduced to pauper status resulting from civil damage award being imposed on them.

  8. 8
    greenergood says:

    PS Also the way the Repugs/Fundies have worked to get Roe vs Wade, science education, then gun law and lots else, destroyed – school board by school board, mayor by mayor, Representative by Representive, etc. Their steady, stealthy, patient march, until they got closer to power, got glitzy, Foxy, gloated and lost – but their grassroots are still there, discontented and armed, some with guns that can emit 50 bullets per second. State by state – they must be reined in.

  9. 9
    JustAnotherBob says:

    Can we start talking about who are the most dangerous mentally ill are among us?

    They are the owners of high capacity weapons who believe that the are preparing to defend America from foreign invasion.

    There are no countries that are capable of delivering troops in any significant number to our shores. The North Koreans are going to do what, hire all the world’s cruise ships?

    And they are the owners of high capacity weapons who believe that they are preparing to defend America by a takeover of the country by the American military.

    The American military wants to run the mess we are? These whackos are going to use their fancy pistols against drones and attack helicopters?

    This subset of gun owners is delusional. Plainly delusional. And delusional people should not own weapons of mass destruction.

    Let’s start talking about how sick these fucks are. Get the conversation going.

  10. 10
    Nom de Plume says:

    @Carl Nyberg:

    If the people who sell guns pay a fine when the guns they sold are used illegally then the responsibility will be with the people who have the power to make a difference.
    And government can play a minimal role.

    Yeah, the only role government need play is to:

    1. Establish what is legal and what is illegal
    2. Enforce it
    3. Levy fines or other penalties

    So basically, the “minimal role” of the government would be doing everything. This is sometimes called “gun control”, and I wholeheartedly support it. Glad to see you’re on board.

  11. 11
    Yutsano says:

    Plus the Hatch Act puts an even bigger restriction on what you and I can really do.

  12. 12
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @beltane: I think we’re on the same page here. See @Nom de Plume

    ETA: or maybe not. I’m not sure civil suits would actually do much. Is there a history of gun manufacturers and dealers being held liable in these types of incidents?

  13. 13
    beltane says:

    Maybe we should establish a special 2nd Amendment zone in the desert where these people can find 2nd Amendment solutions to all of their problems. There, they will be free to shoot at each other, at clouds, at imaginary Russians, Muslims, feminists, Black Panthers, the voices in their heads etc. It’s a win-win. They get to live their dream and we get to live away from the nightmare their fetish creates.

  14. 14
    greenergood says:

    @Corner Stone: Don’t need to turn off the TV – don’t live there. I live near Dunblane in Scotland, where in 1996 after a seemingly sane, but very methodically insane, man killed 16 children and their teacher, the British government BANNED the sale, possession and use of handguns – and since then, no one has been killed by gunshot at a school, mall, temple, church, etc., etc. Yep there’s still gun crime – related to drugs, drive-bys, etc. – but a hell of a better record than the US.

  15. 15
    gopher2b says:

    Start by convincing everyone you know in the NRA to leave. Convince everyone you know not contributing and joining the Brady Campaign to do so. Then start to work at the local level to change product liability laws holding gun manufacturers civilly liable when their products are used in crimes (requires a change in law).

  16. 16
    Nicole says:

    Many of the articles coming out the past few days have pointed out the vast majority of guns used in these tragedies are purchased legally, used by the owner, or the child of an owner. etc. Several articles have also pointed out that a person is far more likely to be the victim of a gun homicide if there is a gun in the house. As best I could find, there are no studies that show an increase in personal safety when a gun is in a home- it’s not likely to make a house less likely to be robbed; it just makes it more likely the owner will be shot as well as robbed if the house is burgled.

    The second a gun comes into a home, that home becomes less safe. Fact.

    I think we need to, and can, begin by changing the conversation. The gun advocates speak of rights, and fine, let them do that, but we need to simply repeat the truth, that a gun in a home makes the home less safe. Not make it about where the Second Amendment begins or ends, or freedom, whatever that means, but about personal knowledge and personal choice and repeat, ad infinitum, that when a person buys a gun for their home, they are making a conscious choice to make that home less safe. And let the gun rights people say, “Intruders, personal protection, urga burga blah blah blah” and then say again and again, that they are more likely to be shot in their own home with their own gun than they are to be shot by an intruder breaking in with a stolen gun. Don’t make it about emotion, or rights, or anything other than the statistics.

    Because thousands of Americans die in dumb gun accidents everyday, or are shot during arguments that would never have escalated to manslaughter if there wasn’t a firearm. Far more than die by a stranger’s hand.

    Make the fear about bringing a gun into the home. No, it won’t change the paranoid nutjobs, but it may make some casual gun owners rethink. Or some potential gun owner rethink.

    As Anne Laurie had said about cigarettes, they were once socially acceptable and now they’re not. And the tobacco lobby has lots of money, too. But the conservation was changed. We can change this one. In conversation, in letters to the editor, in blog posts and Facebook posts and any way in which humans converse, we can change the conversation.

    You buy a gun, you are choosing to make your own life less safe.

  17. 17
    beltane says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: I think they’ve been able to bribe lobby for law that provide for immunity from these types of suits but I’m not sure of the specifics. It would be interesting to hear form legal experts if their is any way the industry could be crippled through the use of civil actions.

  18. 18
    gogol's wife says:

    @JustAnotherBob:

    Yeah. Right on.

  19. 19
    Carl Nyberg says:

    Traditional gun control has not reduced gun violence.

    The courts have made it impossible to enact meaningful gun control.

    So, let’s empower the states to levy fines on people/companies in the chain of custody for for firearms used in illegal killings and illegal shootings.

    The firearms industry will do a better job of sorting out who should have firearms than the government anyways.

    And selling/transferring firearms across state lines will become a bigger deal. So states will be able to set their own policies much more effectively.

  20. 20
    Corner Stone says:

    @greenergood: I have no idea why you replied to me.

  21. 21
    MikeBoyScout says:

    “But none of that really makes a difference.”

    All of it makes a difference. We can and will make the difference we are willing to make. We are not powerless. We are empowered to change this country for the better. We cannot forget this.

    I’m not saying it will be easy. All I’m saying is that it starts with the willingness and the attitude that anything is possible. Let’s agree to start, and then we can agree to continue. And, if we do this, maybe we’ll find a way we can agree to diminish the frequency with which we execute our own.

    It ain’t easy, but it is possible. Ask my gay married neighbours in WA state.

  22. 22
    Violet says:

    @Carl Nyberg: How the hell is “government creating fines” not government creating controls on guns? It’s not like the gun store owners are going to create some gun-store fine fund or something. That law that compels them to pay a fine and the fine money itself will go the government.

    Your idea isn’t a bad one, but it sure isn’t a “minimal role” played by the government as you claim.

  23. 23
    Chris says:

    @beltane:

    Call it “Galt’s Gulch.”

  24. 24
    Violet says:

    @ Bernard Finel:

    I understand you feel you can’t lead, but perhaps you or another front pagers can prod and encourage the rest of us into action. Tim F’s posts to Call Your Congressman re: health care/fiscal cliff come to mind. Why not something like that for gun safety/control issues?

    How about a series of front page posts taking one or two of the many, many suggestions made in comments here and analyzing them in the comments. Next post is a different suggestion or idea. Lather rinse repeat for the rest of the week.

    Things can be done. If we want to stop, or at least slow, these kinds of things from happening, they must be done. Navel-gazing posts about now weak you are do not move anything forward. You don’t have to lead to help move things along. You can encourage others to act.

  25. 25
    RubberCrutch says:

    @MikeBoyScout: I’m not saying it will be easy. All I’m saying is that it starts with the willingness and the attitude that anything is possible. Let’s agree to start, and then we can agree to continue.

    I agree. To be explicit, I’d add that the individual is the fundamental political unit. It’s a mistake to wait for a movement (with “brand” and “logo”!) to hook up with. In that connection, I strongly recommend reading Vaclav Havel’s “The Power of the Powerless.” It’s an amazing, multilayered piece of actionable political philosophy. All progress starts small.

  26. 26
    windpond says:

    @Midnight Marauder: Thanks to an earlier post on Balloon Juice, I started here http://www.bradycampaign.org. and made a donation. Then another excellent idea is to lobby for an obscene tax on every firearm sold anywhere.

  27. 27
    gogol's wife says:

    @RubberCrutch:

    Havel is a good model.

  28. 28
    KDS says:

    Also, too you can win a Moore Award…BJ frontpagers are gonna fuckin’ own it this year…

  29. 29
    justin says:

    Completely OT – I finally made it to a “real” computer. I haven’t been able to read BJ for days – does anybody know if/when the mobile site will actually work again?

  30. 30
    justinb says:

    Completely OT – I finally made it to a “real” computer. I haven’t been able to read BJ for days – does anybody know if/when the mobile site will actually work again?

  31. 31
    Ben Franklin says:

    I think we all should agree to shoot every motherfucker who has the temerity to own a gun……..wait.

  32. 32
    Maude says:

    @Violet:
    I bet Obama makes a speech or a press conference this week and tells us what we can do to rush legislation.
    We need to know what he is going to try to do.

  33. 33
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    All but three of the children have a picture on their FindaGrave memorial. Post the damn pictures, let’s remember the fucking victims, let the loss wash over us. Let’s see WHO we’re condemning to death with our ridiculous gun policy in this country.

  34. 34
    Yutsano says:

    @justinb: I’m glad I’m not the only one having major issues getting the mobile site to work. Jeebus that’s a pain and a half.

  35. 35
    Josie says:

    I don’t think they plan to torch it, but I saw on TPM that a group is planning a march on NRA lobbying headquarters:

    CREDO, a progressive grassroots group, is organizing a march on the National Rifle Association’s lobbying arm in Washington, D.C. Monday. “After the shooter Adam Lanza, no one is more to blame for the massacre of 20 first graders and six women at the Sandy Hook Elementary School than the National Rifle Association,” CREDO wrote on the Facebook page where the march is being organized. “To stop the senseless killing we must first stop the NRA.”

    ETA: I have no idea why this extra box is here or how to fix it. Sorry

  36. 36
    eemom says:

    I’m a fucking p*ssy.

    Now, now. Why be so hard on yourself?

    Your drama queen ass has done something HUGE, right here. This is the first comedy relief I’ve had since Friday.

  37. 37
    Mandalay says:

    @ Bernard Finel

    Action will only come when people instead, spontaneously mass at the NRA HQ and torch it.

    Bernard, I appreciate the emotion and sincerity of your post, but you really should not have posted that remark.

    It is unhelpful and highly irresponsible. You are better than that.

  38. 38
    JPL says:

    @Violet: I have a letter ready to send my representatives tomorrow. Since I live in GA, I’m taking the tax the ammo approach and ban internet sales.

  39. 39
    David in NY says:

    I think getting very angry is not a bad starting place at all. I called the NRA, gave the receptionist a piece of my mind, and tried to get beyond that though not wholly successfully.

    I’ve moved on to thinking an assault weapons type ban, but broader, would be appropriate. But I mean a ban. On manufacture (exc. for specific governmental purposes), on import, on sale, and on possession. And of semi-automatic weapons (which did not exist in 1789). Those are the guns my clients favor, and I don’t even know why we allow them to be made.

    Get mad. Think big. Ignore the sourpusses on balloon-juice. It’s all a progression. For the moment, aside for bad-mouthing the NRA (nice to see “blood on his hands” linked routinely with “Wayner Lapierre” on Google), I’m for Feinsteins assault weapon ban.

  40. 40
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @justinb: The site abruptly dumped me back into the mobile theme a couple of days ago. I had to turn the mobile site off several times before it would stay off.

  41. 41
    David in NY says:

    @JPL: I think he meant people ought to “feel like” doing that, not much more.

    I did sort of yell at an NRA receptionist (after listening to a few minutes of Wayne Lapierre’s Obama vilification). I know it wasn’t very grown-up of me, but at retirement age, I care less and less about that.

  42. 42
    Violet says:

    @Maude:

    We need to know what he is going to try to do.

    We do not need to wait for Big Daddy Obama to do something before we also do something. As he himself said, “We are the ones we have been waiting for.” He can propose whatever legislation he wants, but unless he’s got the support of the people, it’ll go nowhere. Now is the time to show our Congressional Representatives what the people want, irrespective of what the President does.

  43. 43
    Maude says:

    @Mandalay:
    The gov’t has warned people that threats on social media will be taken seriously. It was in anew story and on Twitter.

  44. 44
    Violet says:

    @Yutsano: The mobile site was a complete clusterfuck when I tried using it on Friday afternoon. I gave up and haven’t tried on my phone since then.

  45. 45
    Taylor says:

    Some BJ readers may find the use of the word “pussy” as a pejorative to be offensive.

    Perhaps you might consider the use of the word “pansy” instead.

    Or would that be too queer?

    I have an even better idea: Let’s drop the infantilization of the language.

  46. 46
    Yutsano says:

    @JPL: DEFINITELY ban Internet sales. If they are going to fall under the private dealer loophole (same as what gun shows get away with) then having guns flying all over the country virtually untraceable should not be legal.

  47. 47
    Kay says:

    @David in NY:

    MTP executive producer Betsy Fischer Martin said that the show’s staff reached out “ALL 31 pro gun rights Sens” and not one was willing to discuss the issue on the air. And the press office of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell — America’s least popular Senator, according to a December 11th PPP poll — has given no indication yet that his caucus will try to filibuster this bill.
    On Thursday, there wouldn’t have been no question — either on Twitter or “IRL”— as to whether or not such a proposal would be scuppered by Senate Republicans. Clearly, they haven’t the faintest idea of how to respond to Friday’s horror — a tacit admission that their extremist interpretation of the second amendment just might be failing Americans.

  48. 48
    Maude says:

    @Violet:
    Do what? What legislation is to be proposed? We can have his back.
    I don’t know what to do that will start solving this without laws being passed.
    I had a daddy. I don’t look at men as daddy figures.
    It’s about a concerted effort. Obama asked people to call about the Bush Tax Cuts.

  49. 49
    Violet says:

    @JPL: Didn’t the guy in Norway buy some of the stuff he used to kill those kids over the internet from US sites? I thought I read that. If true, then our guns/ammo sites are not hurting just us.

  50. 50
    Mandalay says:

    @Carl Nyberg:

    My suggestion is to get government out of the gun control business….If the people who sell guns pay a fine when the guns they sold are used illegally

    So you want government out of the gun control business, and instead you want people who sell guns illegally to pay a fine.

    How long did it take you to come up with that idea?

  51. 51
    Yutsano says:

    @Kay:

    And the press office of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell — America’s least popular Senator, according to a December 11th PPP poll — has given no indication yet that his caucus will try to filibuster this bill.

    Is someone trying to be funny? OF COURSE THEY’RE GOING TO FILIBUSTER THE DAMN THING!! Becuz FREEDUMB!!

  52. 52
    Violet says:

    @Maude: Congresspeople won’t bother creating any laws unless they know the people want them. Call your Congressional Representatives and ask what they are doing to prevent this sort of thing from happening. Call your state representatives, your mayor…anyone you can think of. Ask the same questions. Are they going to do something? What is it? Ask them to do something YOU support–like tax ammo, increase mental health funding, ban assault weapons–whatever you think is a good idea.

    Waiting for the the President to tell us what to call about is wasting time. There is plenty of time to call AGAIN once the President and Congress have come up with something. Why wait?

  53. 53
    👽 Martin says:

    @greenergood:

    and the Judicial has said gun control violates the Second Amendment

    SCOTUS has never said that. They say you can’t ban all guns. They say you can ban some guns. They also say you can regulate guns to a very high degree. We’ve tested that in a few places at the local level and a bit less at the state level, but never at the national level.

    So, unless wholesale bans are what we’re asking for, SCOTUS is essentially a non-factor. Congress can do everything we could ever ask for under their interstate commerce powers.

    This is entirely in the sphere of Congress. Obama could do quite a lot of it via executive order (along the lines of the more limited things he’s already done), but the next President could just undo it all. Plus the freakout would be epic if he did it that way.

    This is definitely one of those issues where he says ‘I need you to bring me there’ applies. He can do it if there is a loud and broad call for action, but it’s got to be very broad.

  54. 54
    David in NY says:

    @Kay: Thanks (though I’m not sure exactly why directed to me). I saw that and was amazed that they might have some shame or fear. Certainly that was not shared by the NRA employee to whom I spoke.

  55. 55
    JGabriel says:

    TPM:

    “Well, for the reason George Washington said a free people should be an armed people,” Gohmert said, responding to a question on why people need assault weapons.

    What George Washington ACTUALLY said:

    A free people ought not only to be armed, but disciplined; to which end a uniform and well-digested plan is requisite; and their safety and interest require that they should promote such manufactories as tend to render them independent of others for essential, particularly military, supplies.

    The proper establishment of the troops which may be deemed indispensable will be entitled to mature consideration. In the arrangements which may be made respecting it it will be of importance to conciliate the comfortable support of the officers and soldiers with a due regard to economy.

    Sounds like Washington had a well-regulated militia in mind. Not an individual right to assault weapons.

    .

  56. 56
    Maude says:

    @Violet:
    48, it might not be hard to get the internet sites shut down. I know nothing about them. Someone should post about them.

  57. 57
    👽 Martin says:

    @Yutsano: Susan Rice is all the evidence the resistant Dems should need to support (effectively) killing the filibuster.

  58. 58
    Yutsano says:

    @JGabriel: That’s really an argument for a standing army, which the Founders went back and forth on whether one would be necessary. I think it was the War of 1812 that changed a few attitudes there.

  59. 59
    JPL says:

    @Violet: Holmes bought over 6000 rounds for $3000. You can get full metal jackets for a couple of cents each depending on the type. Although I tried to use statistics I did add one line …If life is so precious, why is it possible to murder a six year old for pennies.
    The ammo site I went on had a notification that shipping will be delayed because of a high volume of sales… It made me sick.

  60. 60
    Violet says:

    @Maude: I don’t know anything about them either. I wonder if there’s a front pager here who does know something about them. Or maybe link to a knowledgeable piece on them.

  61. 61
    David in NY says:

    @👽 Martin: Totally agree. The Supremes did not pretend to invalidate any existing federal law, and no court has done so yet (I believe). Congress can do anything that’s reasonable — regulated kind, numbers, etc., of weapons. The key is to make them.

  62. 62
    Maude says:

    @Violet:
    Violet, if he want to propose reinstalling the Assault weapons ban, I can talk to the AA of the Congress members and say I want the member to vote yea.
    Just calling about random things scatters the effect.
    Writing suggestions is very good.

  63. 63
    JPL says:

    @Violet: Here is a link about Breivik.. latimes

    If states can prevent internet sales of alcohol they sure can ban internet sales of ammo.

  64. 64
    David in NY says:

    @Maude: I think being for the Assault Weapons ban is a start, but there may be other high-powered weapons not covered by that definition that ought to be. And manufacture and importation ought to be limited, as well.

  65. 65
    JGabriel says:

    Yutsano:

    That’s really an argument for a standing army, which the Founders went back and forth on whether one would be necessary.

    Yep. Or, perhaps more particularly, the supply and maintenance of a standing army or militia.

    .

  66. 66
    Kay says:

    @David in NY:

    Sorry, I should have explained. I directed it to you because of the assault weapons bill.

    IMO, they have to move fast or it will wither on the vine. Lieberman is already announcing a “commission” on “mass violence”, where they’ll talk it to death to ensure nothing gets done.

    Lieberman opposes “mass violence”, which is a very safe place to stand, I must say. I’m not aware of any Congressional or industry supporters of “mass violence” :)

  67. 67
    BGinCHI says:

    BF+12

    Jesus, dude, the word you were looking for in posting under your name on a respectable blog is “coward.”

    I have a really foul mouth but I know when to hold and when to let loose.

  68. 68
    Maude says:

    @David in NY:
    I agree. But if something is started, it gets the ball rolling.
    The police say that the killer used a Bushmaster AR 15 to murder most of the innocent souls.
    What type of weapon is this?

  69. 69
    beltane says:

    @JPL:

    The ammo site I went on had a notification that shipping will be delayed because of a high volume of sales… It made me sick

    God, these people need to be quarantined.

  70. 70
    Maude says:

    @Kay:
    Lieberman is a I don’t know what. He can just go away. He doesn’t care about the people in CT.

  71. 71
    Chris says:

    @Kay:

    Clearly, they haven’t the faintest idea of how to respond to Friday’s horror

    I say again, I’ve been shocked by how quiet the Facebook Wingnut Barometer has been. I finally just saw my first one, a dude sharing that fake Morgan Freeman picture and berating liberals for being insensitive towards victims of knife killings. That’s it. Normally it’d be alive with “OMG LIBRULS EVIL GONNA COME FOR YOUR GUNZ!” crap.

  72. 72
    Yutsano says:

    @Chris: One of my FB acquaintances put up a post blaming the Newtown attack on abortion. I tried not to puke.

  73. 73
    gogol's wife says:

    @Violet:

    This is my agenda for tomorrow, along with calling the Brady Campaign (along with grading papers, which is unrelated). Already called the NRA — that’s a dead end.

  74. 74
    Mandalay says:

    @Kay:

    Clearly, they [Senate Republicans] haven’t the faintest idea of how to respond to Friday’s horror

    Yes, they are playing this issue very warily. Even Michelle Malkin, who normally talks before she thinks, is hesitant to get involved (though till managing to stick the boot in)…

    All those who are polluting the public airwaves with the usual talking points about gun control and government solutions dishonor the dead and themselves. This is not a time for political noise. It’s a time for compassion and introspection.

    http://michellemalkin.com/

    That’s some high quality drivel, even by her standards.

  75. 75
    gogol's wife says:

    @Maude:

    I’m calling Murphy and Blumenthal, not Lieberman, you can be sure.

  76. 76
    beltane says:

    @Yutsano: I guess you could look at the attack as a case of a very, very late term abortion but that’s probably not what your friend meant.

  77. 77
    Beauzeaux says:

    In order to convey that you’re a weak-willed coward, you call yourself a woman. How cute.

  78. 78
    Kay says:

    @Chris:

    that fake Morgan Freeman picture

    I have no idea what this is, but don’t tell me:) I can’t have all their…clutter in my head.

    I do think it’s worth mentioning how quiet they are, so I agree with you. I guess the key to controlling the dialogue and narrative in this for them was shutting down the opposition by insisting that it was never the right “time” to talk about it. Once that was gone (thanks to Jon Stewart and others) we find out they are really unable to respond or defend.

  79. 79
    Corner Stone says:

    @JPL:

    You can get full metal jackets for a couple of cents each depending on the type

    Which types?

  80. 80
    Maude says:

    @gogol’s wife:
    Good on you. I have NJ Dems. They have stood strong and they will get my call tomorrow as well.

  81. 81
    Violet says:

    I wonder if any of the families who have lost children in this mass killing will decide to start an organization or foundation or something to increase gun control/gun safety/mental health/something. The America’s Most Wanted guy and the Amber Alert family, who both lost children, come to mind. They turned horror and loss into a force for good. The Brady Campaign is another type but doesn’t involve children.

    I can’t imagine lawmakers looking any of these families in the face and saying, “No, sorry, controlling guns is just not an option.” Their involvement would be so powerful.

    Not saying any of them should, and obviously it’s so soon and probably not even possible for them to think past the next moment, but maybe some day down the line.

  82. 82
    Paul says:

    @Carl Nyberg:

    The firearms industry will do a better job of sorting out who should have firearms than the government anyways.

    Is this snark? We have the highest (by far) homicide rates by firearms in the world. And we have the most (by far) lax gun regulations in the world. Clearly the firearms industry is not doing a good job.

    By the way, governments in other countries have done a decent job in providing for meaningful gun control. Why is it that our country is about the only country on the planet where this can’t be done? Are we this incompetent?

  83. 83
    arguingwithsignposts says:

    @Carl Nyberg:

    So, let’s empower the states to levy fines on people/companies in the chain of custody for for firearms used in illegal killings and illegal shootings.

    Yes. Because that works so well all the other times people talk about empowering the states. /eyeroll

  84. 84
    JPL says:

    @Mandalay: That’s her code for saying I’m a stupid idiot and I can’t defend this.

  85. 85
    JCT says:

    I’m calling Kyl, Flake and McCain’s offices in the AM. I want them to tell me why they are OK with the status quo and why they take money from the NRA that has systematically dismantled gun regulations.

    I wish emails were more effective, I would embed the front graphic from the NYT this AM — a stark list of the murdered women and children.

    And yes, since the election ammo has been scarce.

    Pond scum LaPierre has been saying for the last few years that Obama would be coming for their guns. I wouldn’t mind him being right for once.

    We have to be in the massive majority on this — we should act like it. And fuck Lieberman and his freaking commission. Pathetic.

  86. 86
    Kay says:

    @Mandalay:

    All those who are polluting the public airwaves with the usual talking points about gun control and government solutions dishonor the dead and themselves. This is not a time for political noise. It’s a time for compassion and introspection.

    Too late! They weren’t able to shut it down this time. They’re really incredible cowards. Look how vague and mushy that is. It’s as if those children were struck by lightening.

  87. 87
    General Stuck says:

    All episodes of violent mass murder have an unbelievable quality to them, or ‘how could human beings do such a thing to folks that have done nothing to them’ The answer, of course, is not too far below the surface we are still savage animals with the ability to plan, and only mitigated by a thin layer of civilization.

    But this one is haunting me, and suspect it will for a while, beyond the norm for what has become semi regular events. I just cannot fathom, nor even imagine what it would take to stand over a bunch of 6 year olds pumping them full of bullets from any firearm, but a goddam assault rifle?. I do understand the emotions of rage, but not the dark designs of existential revenge that this act brings us. This was an attack on the very existence of human beings on this planet. imho

    I wish we could wave a wand, and vanish all such weapons, and handguns as well, but I just can’t council remedies that logic tells me are futile, at best, in this particular country. But I will not criticize those on the left for their eliminationist rage and rhetoric toward these tools of death, and that is what they are, when falling into the hands of peoples with grievance and dangerous judgement. I will trust CC Ms McCarthy for guidance on what can be accomplished in the political trenches, and lend her my support. Other than that, since I haven’t owned guns for years now, I just will grieve and seeth like everyone else, for whatever period of time required.

  88. 88
    gogol's wife says:

    @Kay:

    Check out Douthat today. It’s all about the blind cruelty of the cosmos.

  89. 89
    mai naem says:

    @Kay: To show how low opinion of Lieberman has gone, you just need to listen to Gov. Malloy’s statement on Fri. He mentions Blumenthal and Senator elect Murphy. No mention of Lieberman. I know Lieberman’s on his way out but he is still their current senator. I even heard the talk shows mention Blumenthal’s statement. Nada on Lieberman. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy. BTW, I don’t mean to get political on this but I am going to be majorly PO’d if Lieberman is on any commission or panel or anything to do with this. He or his wife will just get paid off by the gun lobby and make sure guns are still easily sold.

  90. 90
    whidgy says:

    Action will only come when people instead, spontaneously mass at the NRA HQ and torch it.

    There’s way too much anger and incivility in this country.

    When people think that arson and violence are preferable to the democratic process, the system is broken.

    Your proposal in the other thread about a check box regarding mental illness in family member would probably be ineffective, but it is much more effective than advocating stuff like this.

    Please stop.

  91. 91
    Violet says:

    The gun nuts are such wimps. They all refused to appear on MTP this morning. Cowards. Every single one of them.

    As part of the multi-pronged approach, pointing out that gun nuts are cowards and must be compensating for lacks elsewhere is a good strategy. The fact that their representatives are documented as being cowards only helps this line of argument.

  92. 92
    JCT says:

    @gogol’s wife: The juxtaposition of Doucehat’s mind-blowing drivel with the rest of the Times coverage (especially the front cover) was amazing today.

    Kay is right — for ONCE, they’ve got absolutely nothing and we need to press hard. Letting this opportunity pass will compound the horror of this event.

  93. 93
    gogol's wife says:

    I prefer our old UNLIMITED CORPORATE CASH troll paid by Romney to the sad-eyed NRA troll we’ve acquired in the last three days.

  94. 94

    It will happen when people are so angry, so desperate that they act.

    This isn’t anywhere close to happening. The piece Ezra Klein posted (Point 12) pointed out that our weekly mass murders affect people’s opinions on gun control not at all. Maybe this one was horrific enough it will make a difference.

    What the fuck am I saying, of course it won’t. Guns are an article of faith for these people. Evidence means nothing. So depressing.

  95. 95
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    Simply reinstating the Assault Weapons Ban will do little or nothing to keep semi-automatic weapons off of the market. When the original ban was signed into law in 1994 the criteria applied to classifying a firearm as an assault weapon were so poorly formulated that the gun manufacturers were able to sell the same weapons with minor cosmetic changes.

  96. 96
    JPL says:

    @Corner Stone: they were russian made.. 100 rounds for 25.00… you can also spend $75.00 for 100 rds. I’m not a bullet expert but I remember the more expensive ones are made of bronze.

  97. 97
    Dave says:

    My god, Bernard, get a grip. The NRA can be outlawed, it doesn’t need to be torched. And remember the NRA is just a political proxy–the problem is people possessing firearms.

  98. 98
    Kay says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    I saw it. I was curious what they’d do with it, and I know he’s the point man for “treacly, sanctimonious conservatives”, that faction.

    I have this fantasy where I tell him: “I have no idea what you’re talking about”.

  99. 99
    Mnemosyne says:

    Here’s my proposal:

    All guns must be registered with the government by serial number.

    All gun owners must be licensed.

    No exceptions. If you have an unregistered gun in your possession, or if you have registered gun that you don’t have a license for, you go to jail for 3 months.

    We can figure out bans on specific guns later on. Right now, we need to figure out what the hell is floating around out there and keep track of it.

  100. 100
    Maude says:

    @General Stuck:
    Police say he fired hundreds of rounds.
    I don’t want to understand and I can’t understand.

  101. 101
    JPL says:

    @Dave: Anger is one of the stages of grief. The NRA is a front for the ammo and gun manufacturers and nothing more. It’s the largest lobbyist in DC. to protect those making big bucks off the killing of innocents.

  102. 102
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    When the original ban was signed into law in 1994 the criteria applied to classifying a firearm as an assault weapon were so poorly formulated that the gun manufacturers were able to sell the same weapons with minor cosmetic changes.

    You know, I keep hearing that, and yet we didn’t have this surge in mass killings with high-capacity firearms until the ban expired. So it must have been doing something, even if it didn’t regulate precisely the way it should have.

    To add to my proposals above, the next step would be banning high-capacity magazines. Reloading slows these guys down — it’s how they were able to tackle the guy in Tucson and hold him for the cops to arrive. If you need to shoot off more than 10 rounds at a time to kill a deer, you’re a very bad hunter who shouldn’t be allowed in the woods with other people.

  103. 103
    Kay says:

    @mai naem:

    Blumenthal’s

    He will have cred because of the law enforcement angle, long-time AG, etc.

  104. 104
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    It would be interesting to see how many people a shooter could take out at the Washington headquarters of the NRA. It’s my understanding NRA employees are not allowed to carry firearms in the office. There’s a gun range in the basement so the shooter will want to start on the higher floors. There are gun display cases on the walls but the guns encased here are likely not prepared for shooting. I think the end result will be a tragedy of epic proportions that we will be told no one could have foreseen.

    But they’ll still say everyone should be armed in an elementary school, thereby blaming the victims for the permissive and violent gun culture they have created.

  105. 105
    redshirt says:

    @Chris: That’s only their “frontline” media sites. Read Free Republic for an insight on how to the typical Wingnut is reacting.

    “O’LOSERS COMING FER ARE GUNS!” is an apt summary.

  106. 106

    I’ve seen a lot of ‘armed citizen’ if-only-the-teachers-were-packing bullshit on facebook, actually blocked one childhood acquaintance for it.

    I usually read several wingnut blogs but have been avoiding them since the shooting. Reading the Malkin quotes posted here I can see that was a wise decision.

  107. 107
    Mandalay says:

    @Kay:

    Look how vague and mushy that is.

    Right. It almost invites the “kumbaya” and “feeeelings” derision that is frequently dished out by these cowards on the right.

    OTOH, Malkin may have finally explained why Dubya kept on reading “My Pet Goat” on 9/11. He thought it was a time of introspection, and he did not want to dishonor the dead.

    Malkin really is a nasty piece of work.

  108. 108
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @Maude: Bushmaster .223.

    Six hundred dollars. Six hundred dollars to kill 26 people. The results of such a horror will probably top a couple of million when all the direct costs of this are tallied.

    (Police time, medical care, funerals, repair to the school. psychological counseling). Not to mention the lifetime of grief, depression, alcohol and drug abuse as people try to self-medicate the pain away.

    But the gun lobby is never asked to pay the bills for such carnage, nor the political price for creating an atmosphere of paranoia that leads to immeasurable suffering. #TAXTHEGUNS.

  109. 109
    Higgs Boson's Mate says:

    How is it that billions of dollars worth of monitoring, eavesdropping, infiltrating and domestic spying don’t result in someone going around to at least have a chat with an individual who’s purchased hundreds, let alone thousands, of rounds for a semi-automatic weapon?

  110. 110
    jwb says:

    @Yutsano: Reading on my iPhone has been fine since the changeover, though it’s hard to get back to the main page without doing it manually from a bookmark. I haven’t tried posting comments however.

  111. 111
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate:

    Be patient, my man. They’re hot on the trail….

    http://anthraxvaccine.blogspot.....ietly.html

  112. 112
    beltane says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: If Nancy Lanza was Muslim or a leftist I’m sure Homeland Security would have had a chat with her. However, since she was a nice blonde upper-middle-class suburban lady her sh*t didn’t stink.

    When will something be done about all the scary white people in this country?

  113. 113
    redshirt says:

    If there was ever a time for the old political “Ride out the storm” move, for Right Wingers, this is it. Don’t say anything, and instead try to distract the media with BENGHAZI! or some such until we all collectively move on, with nothing changing.

    It’s a pretty successful political move (Romney used it with his taxes in the election to success), sadly.

  114. 114
    Maude says:

    @CarolDuhart2:
    Thank you. I know nothing about this weapon.
    Funny how being irresponsible seems so attractive to them. Cowards.

  115. 115
    Mandalay says:

    @Violet:

    The gun nuts are such wimps. They all refused to appear on MTP this morning.

    Not quite. Unfortunately the most pompous hypocritical windbag in the world showed up….

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....11774.html

  116. 116
    Schlemizel says:

    Here is a mom discussing dealing with her violent, mentally unstable 13 YO son – you need to read this
    http://anarchistsoccermom.blog.....kable.html

  117. 117
    huckster says:

    Hasn’t seemed to stop any of their followers from blowing up social media, and I would expect they’ll be feeling pressure from the guntards to start speaking out pretty soon. If you think raising taxes is a bridge too far for these people, you have no idea how many GOP Reps could find themselves with a primary challenge if they even sniff at gun safety laws.

  118. 118
    JoyceH says:

    @gopher2b:

    Start by convincing everyone you know in the NRA to leave. Convince everyone you know not contributing and joining the Brady Campaign to do so. Then start to work at the local level to change product liability laws holding gun manufacturers civilly liable when their products are used in crimes (requires a change in law).

    Thing is, I don’t think the Brady Campaign backs or opposes candidates for office, and that’s really what we need. We need a gun reform group to run ads for and against candidates based on their record on guns – we need a counterweight to the NRA that has every one of our legislators shaking in their loafers.

    Last fall, Michael Bloomberg created the Independence USA superpac. It went up against some incumbents with 100% ratings from the NRA – and defeated them too. And helped elect some legislators who ran on gun reform.

    That’s what we need! Something for the PRO-gun crowd to fear! Sensible gun regulation is a mainstream position – we need a Congress who will follow the will of the people.

    I’ve been looking online trying to find a place to contribute to Independence USA, but right now it’s 100% funded by Bloomberg himself (over 10 million spent in the 2012 campaign). I posted to Bloomberg’s Facebook page that he needs to open his Pac to small contributors. If not, we need something similar. To heck with this ‘educate’ and ‘propose legislation’ crap! We need to send our money to an organization that will SUPPORT reasonable people and get them elected and OPPOSE the gun-nuts and get them defeated! Nothing is going to happen until we can do that.

  119. 119
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @redshirt: I’m not so sure. This was 20 babies, as innocent as can be. If I was (God forbid) one of the parents, I would haunt the NRA to my last dying day for allowing such carnage. Nobody is more angry and grieved than a parent who has lost a child needlessly and to senseless violence. Sharon Tate’s mother fought the rest of her life to keep her daughters killers behind bars. The founder of America’s Most Wanted fights to get fugitives behind bars. There’s the Mothers of the Disappeared in Argentina. Parents will fight to keep other parents from having to go through what they went through.

    The Civil Rights Movement: Four little kids bombed in Birmingham in Church. There were awful events before, but that killing really galvanized public opinion against segregation. Emmitt Till lit a fuse and created the law-based battle against segregation into a mass movement. There’s something about killing innocent kids that really hits home about an evil like nothing else does. People can always find excuses for adults being a victim-but a seven year old who barely understands whats going on?

  120. 120
    Mandalay says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead:

    There’s a gun range in the basement so the shooter will want to start on the higher floors.

    This is an unhelpful and irresponsible comment. And that is the polite version of what I really think.

    Anyone advocating violence – even in the guise of satire or a supposedly “obvious” joke or snark – needs to STFU.

  121. 121
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Chris: I’ve seen the fake Morgan Freeman thing being passed around by liberals; it seems to have widespread support since it’s mostly about the media being horrible, and people don’t notice the dismissal of gun control at the end.

  122. 122
    JPL says:

    @Schlemizel: The Washington Post on parenting blog discusses and links to that mom.
    The comments aren’t worth reading.

  123. 123
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Chris: …and, actually, I’ve got a relative sharing all the stuff about how teachers should be armed like they supposedly do in Israel, and how the solution is to Put God Back In The Schools.

  124. 124
    Violet says:

    @Mandalay: Bennett is an ass. This is what I was referring to, btw:

    David Gregory, host of NBC’s “Meet the Press,” noted on the show Sunday that pro-gun rights senators in the new Congress had declined to go on the show to discuss guns two days after the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.

    “We reached out to all 31 pro-gun rights Senators in the new Congress to invite them on the program to share their views on this subject this morning,” Gregory said. “We had no takers.”

    Those who make the laws were cowards and refused to show up to defend their votes or positions on the subject.

    Edit: Holy cow! The blockquote has been fixed. I can quote more than one paragraph without having to put two underscores inbetween paragraphs. Wonders never cease.

  125. 125
    Ben Franklin says:

    @Mandalay:

    It’s just Poe’s Law.

  126. 126
    redshirt says:

    @CarolDuhart2: I hope you’re right. While I’m hopeful and optimistic about our side, I’ve never been more cynical about their side. I paraphrase: “If the seas were filled with gasoline, some nuts would throw in a lit match.”

    We’re dealing with nihilists who pretend to be religious. They’re truly dangerous as a whole and I no longer have any faith that they’re even capable of not only doing what’s right, but heck, doing what’s decent.

  127. 127
    Paul says:

    @CarolDuhart2:

    If I was (God forbid) one of the parents, I would haunt the NRA to my last dying day for allowing such carnage. Nobody is more angry and grieved than a parent who has lost a child needlessly and to senseless violence.

    If I recall correctly, one of the parents from Colombine (whose child was murdered) did just this. She tried to lobby Congress and as she tried this she was harassed by the NRA. Eventually, if my memory is correct, she just gave up on Congress and instead do occasional speeches. It is really difficult without adequate support.

    I don’t know much about the Brady campaign. But it seems it hasn’t accomplished much of anything, partially because Congress has nothing to fear from it. I think Bloomberg’s approach is much better. Support candidates who favor a tough approach against the gun industry with money. This is what the NRA does to the candidates on the other side. And it works.

  128. 128
    Ted & Hellen says:

    This is a bizarre post.

    Please Bernard, this blog has enough crazy ass front pagers without you melting down too. Jesus.

    And what’s with the use of the word “pussy” around here in that context lately. Even I find that sort of uncalled for.

    My straight friends tell me pussy is sweet and soft and warm…why wouldn’t you want to be those things?

  129. 129
    whidgy says:

    @Paul:
    Both the NRA and the Brady Campaign exist primarily to fund their employees/lobbyists, both using paranoia and scare tactics to accomplish that.

  130. 130
    Machine-Gun Preacher (formerly Ben Franklin) says:

    test

  131. 131
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @Mandalay: Fuck off, troll.

  132. 132
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mandalay:

    True, but personally I can’t wait until Red State or Malkin starts screeching about how Some Fuckhead on the internet was talking about shooting up the NRA.

    I think the nym answers its own question.

  133. 133
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @Mandalay:

    Action will only come when people instead, spontaneously mass at the NRA HQ and torch it.
    Bernard, I appreciate the emotion and sincerity of your post, but you really should not have posted that remark.
    It is unhelpful and highly irresponsible. You are better than that.

    I disagree. I would LOVE to see that fucking palace go down in flames, preferably empty, but whatevs.

  134. 134
    Just Some Fuckhead says:

    @redshirt:

    If there was ever a time for the old political “Ride out the storm” move, for Right Wingers, this is it.

    This. Hopefully we won’t let this storm pass.

  135. 135
    Violet says:

    @Paul: Something about this most recent school mass killing feels different from Columbine. Maybe it’s because the kids were so young. Maybe it’s because there are more of them. Maybe it’s because the killer’s motives so far remain a mystery. Maybe it’s because the community doesn’t seem to be as overtly religious as Columbine was. Maybe it’s because more of these have happened since. I don’t know. It just feels different.

    I feel like if any parent or family (or families) of children who were murdered in this horrible event decides to do something, they will gain traction.

    It just feels different this time. The country wants change.

  136. 136
    Raven says:

    Westboro is coming.

    warning, Huff Post link

  137. 137
    Violet says:

    @Raven: Did you expect anything different?

    They’re a church, right? Yay for tax exempt status.

  138. 138
    Maude says:

    @Raven:
    The Westboro site was hacked today. By those who don’t like them.

  139. 139
    Raven says:

    @Violet: I didn’t post it because I didn’t think they’d do it if that is what you are asking.

  140. 140
    Corner Stone says:

    @Raven: I’m never sure why someone well outside city limits does not mistakenly leave their tire strips on an incoming route.

  141. 141
    redshirt says:

    I forget what college it was, but the kids lined up in order to block the Westboro clowns. Hopefully folks can get organized to do the same in CT.

    I know some biker gangs have done this as well at some military funerals.

  142. 142
    DPS says:

    C’mon, people. Stop giving Bernard such a hard time. He’s just advocating arson, and who hasn’t advocated a little arson now and then?

  143. 143
    PurpleGirl says:

    I’ve bookmarked the web site for Carolyn McCarthy. As I wrote in a post below, she is the representative for NY4 and is a Democrat. She’s been in Congress since 1997. In 1993, her husband was killed and her son severely injured by shooter Colin Ferguson while commuting home on the LIRR. Gun safety has been a signature issue for her. She has introduced gun laws several times. When the assault rifle ban lapsed, she introduced a bill to continue it. I look forward to seeing what she proposed in the new congress.

  144. 144
    huckster says:

    @Just Some Fuckhead: Tis the calm before the storm.

    They don’t have to say anything, they have the votes stop any of this before it gets started. And if any of them were to get wobbly the threat of a primary will keep them in line.

  145. 145
    greenergood says:

    @Corner Stone: ‘God. Take a hot shower and turn off the TV.’ Sorry, Corner stone, your comment was right under mine and maybe I thought you were being snarky, and I’m not able to deal with snark just now. So apologies if I misinterpreted your comment
    .

  146. 146
    PurpleGirl says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: There may be too much data to be integrated and analyzed, i.e., so much is spent collecting data and not enough is spent on human beings to collate it all from the different agencies and process the data into useable information.

  147. 147
    Ted & Hellen says:

    @CarolDuhart2:

    I’m not so sure. This was 20 babies, as innocent as can be. If I was (God forbid) one of the parents, I would haunt the NRA to my last dying day for allowing such carnage.

    Wouldn’t you also consider haunting your elected representatives who have done zero about this ever growing problem? The NRA pumps in a lot of money, but they can’t cast even one vote in congress.

    There are plenty of complicit Dems too. NRA cash flows both ways.

  148. 148
    Raven says:

    @redshirt: I did it here in Athens. That’s where the “Patriot Guard” started (not in Athens but in response to WBBC. I also stood against them in Savannah last year. I know this is a deadly serious thread but one counter-protester had a big sign that read “God Hates Your Outfit”!

  149. 149
    whidgy says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: I think that was probably a mistake – the article said that he had 47 guns, mostly collector’s items, worth over $100,000 and ammunition.

    I haven’t been able to find an link saying he had over 100,000 rounds of ammunition.

    That said, it’s not uncommon for serious competitive shooters to buy large quantities of ammunition. It’s cheaper that way. Serious trap and skeet shooter shoot tens of thousands of rounds a month. (They usually reload their ammunition using components because its much cheaper that way.)

    I do some competitive shooting, not that much, and I usually buy 1,000 to 3,000 rounds at a time because its cheaper. I had practice and a shooting match last weekend and I shot over 300 centerfire rounds — and the really good shooter shoot much more than that.

  150. 150
    Raven says:

    @Corner Stone: The generally get a police escort. They really want to provoke violence and it takes discipline to not go after them. I met with the Patriot Guard dudes the day before and their message was clear, shield the families and hold the line. That was at the funeral of a soldier killed in Iraq. In Savannah they went from church to church as they let out services and our motley mix of military families and GLBT folks moved with them.

  151. 151
    Raven says:

    @Higgs Boson’s Mate: Hey, I read your post about your dad and the APA. Sounds like yours and mine were in very similar circumstances.

    send me an email at markann at gmaildotcom if you want

  152. 152
    Corner Stone says:

    @Raven: Sure. Hence the “well outside city limits” part of my question.

  153. 153
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @Ted & Hellen: One can talk and chew gum at the same time. The right organization and organizing can do both and probably needs to in order to get traction. Make politicians sweat, and their backers sweat too.

    What do I want? Licensing and insurance for guns. Limits on the amount of guns/ammo that a non-collector, non dealer can have in his/her possession. Military guns for police and military only-the semiautomatics would be banned for civilians. Safety locks, safes.

    It wouldn’t hurt to ask an owner a few questions from time to time regarding their mental state as part of a regular checkup. Suicide is just as devastating in certain respects as homicide-and it’s often an impulse. Other methods, there’s usually a chance a person can be saved if caught in time. Guns make that impossible.

  154. 154
    Raven says:

    @Corner Stone: One can dream.

  155. 155
    whidgy says:

    It wouldn’t hurt to ask an owner a few questions from time to time regarding their mental state as part of a regular checkup.

    Some of your proposals are sound, but how would this one work? The clerk at Walmart is going to conduct a subjective mental health evaluation on potential purchasers?

  156. 156
    smith says:

    @Corner Stone:

    The people of Newtown should do what the people in Mississippi did last year. At their hotel, the Westboro cars were blocked in by 18-wheelers, the taxi companies refused to give them rides, and law enforcement refused to assist them. It took them days to get back home.

    Sadly, the Westboro Church is sue-happy and would probably try and sue Newtown for not letting them express their “free speech” rights.

  157. 157
    huckster says:

    @whidgy: How about a license to operate firearms issued by the state, paid for by a tax on weapons/ammo?

  158. 158
    redshirt says:

    @Raven: Good on you man. That’s awesome.

    This should be the default behavior at every WBC appearance. Also, specific instructions given to participants on how to deal with those freaks: Ignore them. Block them and ignore them.

    Made me feel good by this comment Raven. Thanks.

  159. 159
    Brendan in NC says:

    In addition to loudly, publicly protesting against the NRA, I’d communicate to them that they’ve got one more chance to respond properly to this tragedy…

    If they do not do so, I’m all for designating them as a domestic terror organization, freezing their bank accounts/funding and publicly shaming all politicians who don’t denounce and return any campaign funds they got from them.

  160. 160
    Raven says:

    @redshirt: I was interviewed by the local paper because they saw the Vietnam Vet hat I was wearing. They asked me what I thought about the whole deal and I said “Well, theoretically the young man died so they could do this. I’m glad no one got hurt.” I lied.

  161. 161
    whidgy says:

    @huckster:
    Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. Particularly if it would eliminate the need for me to fill out 5 pages of documents and pay $75 to a FFL dealer and wait 10 days every time I wanted to purchase a gun.

    The current procedures are pretty much just security theatre, like the TSA. Instead of having grandma empty out here 3.2 ounce tube of toothpaste, some kind of “trusted traveler” system would make more sense.

    There’s already something like that in California for handguns. You have to pass a test and demonstrate safe handling of the firearm and the you get a little card that allows you to purchase handguns. Of course, even with this card, you have to fill out all of the stupid paperwork and pass the background check again. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

    I don’t think that most gun nuts would go for that though – many of them still have the fear of the “gun-registration-will-be-used-to-take-away-my-guns-someday.”
    .

  162. 162
    redshirt says:

    @Raven: And again with the awesome. Big thumbs up.

    WBC is a prickly matter. Yep, First Amendment gives them the right. But god damn them for exercising it in the manner they do. I can’t blame anyone who’d wish or do violence upon them, nor can I blame the legal system for coldly rewarding WBC for any act of violence committed on them. As the laws are written today. But I don’t think our legal system is equipped to deal with the TROLL in real life. And WBC is a Church of Trolls.

    But then I hate any law that tries to respect legitimate free speech, and you can’t deny WBC is simply freely expressing and nothing more.

  163. 163
    Mnemosyne says:

    @gogol’s wife:

    You have to admit, it’s pretty ballsy for him to be posting and pretending to criticize an organization that he’s a dues-paying member of.

    Oh, but it’s all of those other NRA members who are crazy gun nuts. Not him, no sirree.

  164. 164
    Raven says:

    @redshirt: Yep, and expressing right back at their punk asses is the way to go.

  165. 165
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Here’s my proposal:

    All guns must be registered with the government by serial number.

    All gun owners must be licensed.

    No exceptions. If you have an unregistered gun in your possession, or if you have registered gun that you don’t have a license for, you go to jail for 3 months.

    We can figure out bans on specific guns later on. Right now, we need to figure out what the hell is floating around out there and keep track of it.

    I like this idea, and would like it to be called the Well-Regulated Militia Act of 2013. Throw a sop to the paranoid right by pointing out that it makes it easier to catch any future Fast And Furious style fiasco involving straw purchases and “gun-walking.” And add that Al Qaeda itself, the bogeyman of all bogeymen, cited the US as a great place for terrorists to buy weapons.

    Yes, it does mean that The Government is monitoring your gun collection. Too fucking bad.

    My guess is that there will never be a way to reliably distinguish good guns from bad. And it would also make people with guns who already follow the rules, who we need on our side, much more nervous about the prospect of future government-ordered confiscation. But the good news is that I don’t think we need that particular aspect to get a more robust regime of gun control and/or safety rolling quickly.

  166. 166
    Paul says:

    @Violet:

    Trust me. I really hope you are right. But I bet a month from now nothing will have changed. Yes, there will be memorials, a few speeches, but as always behind the scenes the NRA will threaten any congressperson who shows any signs of not supporting them. Nothing happened after Colombine or Virginia Tech.

    Unless there is a counter-organization to the NRA, nothing will change. Maybe Bloomberg can start a movement.

  167. 167
    whidgy says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I won’t be bothering to address your habitual dishonesty beyond this: @whidby:

  168. 168
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @CarolDuhart2:

    What do I want? Licensing and insurance for guns.

    Would insurance companies want to be in that business? Seems to me that you’d end up with an adverse selection problem, like with flood insurance, whereby the people most in need of being insured are also the worst risks. That’s why I was wondering about a “public option” for gun liability insurance. Anyone who qualifies for a license is guaranteed issuance. Doing that might let “gun rights” supporters in Congress feel involved in managing the policy particulars, rather than feeling under siege from a government bent on banning things. (Yes, sometimes my technowonkery verges on naivete.)

  169. 169
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Paul:

    Unless there is a counter-organization to the NRA, nothing will change

    There is one: the American Hunters and Shooters Association. I don’t think it’s made much of an impact yet.

  170. 170
    Violet says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Yes, it does mean that The Government is monitoring your gun collection. Too fucking bad.

    Those who have done nothing wrong have nothing to fear.

  171. 171
    Mnemosyne says:

    @whidgy:

    Oh, so you’re not really a dues-paying member of the NRA like you claimed?

    The NRA has loathsome leadership. I cringe every time I get my monthly magazine from them and read their nonsense about “Fast and Furious” and the lies about the Obama administration.
    __
    I really wish there was another organization out there that effectively lobbied for gun owners that wasn’t so “conservative.”

    I made sure to quote your entire post since you’re so terribly, terribly concerned about me “lying.” What was it again — you didn’t say that the president shouldn’t talk about gun control before stopping drone attacks overseas, you just said he was a hypocrite if he talked about gun control before stopping drone attacks overseas? Oh, and that he could stop drone attacks without the permission of the NRA, but of course you weren’t referring to gun control when you brought the NRA into it. Only a fool would think that.

  172. 172
    Mnemosyne says:

    @whidgy:

    Here, let me help you.

    That wasn’t so hard, now was it? Let’s let everyone take a look and see how much of a “liar” I am about what you said.

  173. 173
    whidgy says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    Thank you for fixing the link.

    I don’t see any reason to engage with you further.

    Please stop posting to me and about me.

    You’re getting kind of creepy and stalkerish.

  174. 174
    MikeBoyScout says:

    @25 RubberCrutch: I’ve not read Havel’s book, but I’ve just downloaded it. TYVM!

    We shall overcome. We are not afraid.

  175. 175
    spacewalrus says:

    @Carl Nyberg: what the hell is stopping the firearms industry from being more discriminate about who they sell to now????? NOTHING. Because they do not give one fk so long as there’s money in the bank.

  176. 176
    Carl Nyberg says:

    @Mandalay: I propose fining people who sell firearms legally if the end user violates the law.

    Put the onus on the people in the position to do the background check. Give them the incentive to do it right.

  177. 177
    Carl Nyberg says:

    @spacewalrus: Well, if the sellers had skin in the game they would be more discriminatory about selling.

  178. 178
    Carl Nyberg says:

    @arguingwithsignposts: If Texas, Arizona and other gun nut states want to have a policy that allows firearm dealers to avoid paying fines, I’m OK with that.

    But if the firearm gets used in a crime in Illinois, then Illinois gets to go after gun dealers in Texas and Mississippi.

    This will provide incentives for dealers to require their purchasers to keep the guns from crossing state lines.

  179. 179
    Carl Nyberg says:

    @Paul:

    We have the highest (by far) homicide rates by firearms in the world. And we have the most (by far) lax gun regulations in the world. Clearly the firearms industry is not doing a good job

    The politicians have created a set of laws where the firearms industry has no incentive to police itself.

    And the liberal obsession with creating some victory for government is keeping the United States from implementing policy that puts the onus on the right parties.

  180. 180
    Mnemosyne says:

    @whidgy:

    Don’t flatter yourself, sweet cheeks. But I’ll make a deal with you — if you’ll stop writing fake sanctimonious posts about how nothing can be done while continuing to be a dues-paying member of the NRA, I’ll stop pointing out your hypocritical bullshit. Deal?

  181. 181
    Yvette says:

    Libertarian-esque self-policing ideas like the one proposed by Carl Nyberg above would have no positive effect unless the fines are overwhelming, and they won’t be because huge fines, large enough to put gun dealers out of business, would probably not pass, and if by some unusual set of circumstances, they did pass, extremely large fines would probably never be imposed. And, just like with HSBC, they’d probably get away without criminal charges, supporting criminal fines, because large corporations can do just about anything under current enforcement practices. It will be interesting to see if any of the families sue the gun manufacturers, and how those cases go. The Bush era congress made sure that it will not be easy to maintain these suits with the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act in 2005. However, no after-the-fact proposed solutions mean much when your kid has been killed.

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