Meanwhile, in Michigan

While we are counting the corpses in Connecticut, Gov. Rick Snyder is about to sign this atrocity:

The most sweeping rewrite of Michigan’s concealed handgun law in more than a decade includes details that go well beyond opening so-called “gun free zones” to hidden weapons.

The state House on Thursday passed the bill 68-41 and sent it to Gov. Rick Snyder, one of many laws sped through a lame-duck session that did not conclude until early Friday morning.

Aside from allowing concealed pistols in schools and other places, a number of measures are aimed at streamlining a permit process critics say remains far from uniform statewide.

Remember, to the wingnut mind, more guns are ALWAYS the solution.

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214 replies
  1. 1
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    Gun compulsion zones. Hence, more sales for the NRA-funding gun-pushers.

  2. 2
    JGabriel says:

    Thanks for front-paging this. I posted links to stories on it in the previous two threads, but it really needs wider reporting.

  3. 3

    Oh it’ll be fine. Michigan has never had a problem keeping its militias well-regulated.

  4. 4
    BerkeleyMom says:

    I have many friends who are public school teachers and NONE of them want to carry a gun in school. NONE.

  5. 5
    MobiusKlein says:

    What would the Teabaggers say if a flurry of laws were passed in the 2010 House of Reps lame duck session?


  6. 6
    Jay in Oregon says:

    Maybe if we can get the NRA redefined as a public-sector union, things will change.

  7. 7
    DanF says:

    I didn’t get more than twenty comments into the cnn comment thread on this story before some jack-hole was promoting training teachers to carry guns as the solution.

  8. 8
    WereBear says:

    Okay, let’s declare ENOUGH. Let’s push back.

    Put up a fundraiser, hire someone to do artwork (we have several right here on the Juice) and we all put it on Facebook, email everyone, get it started.

    Publicize the hideous thing David Gregory said. Push back on those stupid relatives who declare dead children are fine with them.

    I’m in. We can do it.

    If dead kindergarteners won’t get it done… nothing will.

  9. 9
    David in NY says:

    Anybody got the good governor’s phone number?

  10. 10
    Robin G. says:

    Today it’s wrong to politicize the tragedy. Tomorrow we need to heal and get past it. Next week is Christmas, let’s think happy thoughts.

    See how that works?

  11. 11
    Michael G says:

    Waiting for Instapundit to suggest that this could have been avoided if the kids were armed.

  12. 12
    JPL says:

    This is not the time to talk about gun control. I am so saddened and my son who is visiting just heard a tirade of f.’s after NBC’s Clint Van asshole compared the violence to a knife used in China.

  13. 13
    Turgidson says:


    Has anyone suggested that parents put guns in their kids’ lunchboxes yet? I’m actually half-expecting some teabagger freak to suggest that the CT massacre could have avoided if only the children had been packing heat. The gun lobby and its allies has gone that far off the sanity cliff.

  14. 14
    Jay in Oregon says:

    @Michael G:
    Waiting for Instapundit to suggest that this could have been avoided if the kids were armed.

    I realize these kinds of comments are snark but after the Columbine shooting, kids who bring guns to school will be lucky not to get shot themselves.

  15. 15
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:

    Don’t forget that mentioning Gun Control immediately means you’re a total anti-freedom America-hating commie bastard asshole who wants everyone to die from lack of guns.

    God, I wish I was kidding, but even mentioning it to any of my friends seems to get me that ‘Evil Alien from Anti-American Space’ look. Even from the ostensibly ‘liberal’ ones.

    Fuck it all.

  16. 16
    danimal says:

    Reposting from a prior thread, because even if they’re bad ideas, we need to start thinking of practical ways to initiate change…

    Without changing the current gun-crazy consensus that exists in political America, there are still ways to combat(!) the craziness. Off the top of my head, here are some things we can start to do today to gain the middle in the gun debate.

    Some Second Amendment remedies:
    1. Tax the shit out of bullets. There are huge social costs to the widespread use of bullets, it’s time to recoup them. Makes hunting more expensive, but bullets bought for self-defense don’t get used so much. We don’t need to subsidize hunters, it’s not part of the Second Amendment.
    2. Tracking. Track bullet sales, microstamping, whatever it takes. Track gun sales everywhere. Put the ‘well-regulated’ back into the gun culture. Help law enforcement, even if this approach is reactive rather than proactive. It’s still progress.
    3. Education. The damn NRA propaganda is all we get when a tragedy occurs; it’s time to stand up and challenge the bastards. We’ve been complicit with our silence too long. Maybe reasonable people can be persuaded that some limitations on Fortress America are a good idea. I’m sick of this.
    4. Get paranoid. The marriage of the NRA and GOP may lead to a civil war before long. We had better start thinking about the embrace of GOP nihilism as more than an unfortunate political strategy. Face it, they are armed, angry and losing power. Normal Americans had better understand the right-wing extremism is not yesterday’s country club conservatism before it is too late. We need to be more explicit about the dangers from the right.

  17. 17
    Lavocat says:

    If ONLY the teachers were allowed to pack heat!

    You know SOME wingnut is going to say it in 3, 2, 1, …

  18. 18
    Anonymous says:


    In that China case, 22 injured, 2 serious injuries, 0 deaths.

    In today’s case: 3 serious injuries, 27 others dead, most of which are children.

    So of course it’s on the front page of Drudge: these cases are exactly the same. Gun control solves nothing.

  19. 19
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:


    It may not be the time, but that hasn’t stopped folks from going the exact opposite way, warning of the extra-super Dangers of nefarious ‘confiscate all guns-control!!’ and insisting that this only would’ve been prevented if everyone in that school had been packing.

    We don’t even need to mention Gun Control anymore before the reflexive backlash commences.

  20. 20
    wiscomom says:

    @WereBear: Sign me up. Let’s do something. Now, not tomorrow.

  21. 21
    Lavocat says:

    @Robin G.: FUCK THAT!

    18 CHILDREN killed trumps Christmas and – on its face – is blatantly political!

  22. 22
    HE Pennypacker, Wealthy Industrialist says:

    The shooting spree could’ve been stopped if more kindergartners were carrying guns.

  23. 23
    quannlace says:

    Curious what sites like Free Republic’s first take on this is. The usual ‘wasn’t there a gun anywhere in the school?” Right, cause when I have my first Parent/teachers meeting at my child’s school, my first question always is ‘Are there guns readily available here, just, you know, in case?’
    Oh, and then one poster, while asking how someone could target children, suggested it might be ‘Muslims?’

  24. 24
    piratedan says:

    @Robin G.: that was the gameplan that they used in Tucson, almost verbatim

  25. 25
    Maude says:

    Don’t forget Twitter.
    Thank you for telling us about your difficulty starting with Reagan. We have indeed been cheated.
    We can change this. We have come a long way since the 1950s.

  26. 26
    Davis X. Machina says:

    More names on the wall of the Freedom Martyrs’ Shrine.

  27. 27
    Maude says:

    This. This. This.

  28. 28
    lamh35 says:

    I really hate that some of these news orgs are interviewing children. I don’t know what I hate more, the parents allowing their children to be interviewed right now or the news org for even having interviews with the children.

  29. 29
    David in NY says:

    And people have the right to carry semi-automatics so they can kill 18 kindergarteners instead of only 2 or 3. That seems to be an important constitutional right these days.

  30. 30
    👽 Martin says:

    @Turgidson: We have this. Why do you hate free enterprise?

  31. 31
    Face says:

    Aside from allowing concealed pistols in schools

    After today, watch what happens the first time some dickwad teacher/admin brings his glock to school and some unknowing parent sees it and completely freaks the fuck out. You wanna talk the Mother Of All Freakouts, accompanied by a chain-reaction of freakouts leading to 734 calls to 911 and police and school officials confused as all hell about what the fuck is going on.

  32. 32
    Maude says:

    In the thread 18 minutes, comment 99.
    John, please ban this commenter from the site. The nym is David Koch.

  33. 33
    Hill Dweller says:

    The wingnuts in Michigan also passed another emergency manager law to replace the one the voters did away with in the election. They passed it at 4:30 in the morning…

  34. 34
    👽 Martin says:

    @Lavocat: Bryan Fischer beat me to the snark punch on that 3 hours ago. We didn’t even have reports of casualties yet.

    These people are unspoofable.

  35. 35
    sheithappens says:

    Cue “I got a man crush on fat bastard Chrstie” Cole and his childishly simplistic solutions.

    guns=bad so stop guns..ugg snort
    dronezzz=bad so stop dronezzzz..ugg snort..scratch bum.

  36. 36
    Grumpy Code Monkey says:

    I spent several months last year working with a 2nd Amendment absolutist. If he’s typical (don’t know that many true gun nuts), then it’s less about the guns themselves than FREEDOM.

    The freedom to bear arms trumps all other considerations, public safety be damned. If freedom of assembly (such as a political rally) is threatened because some wacko shows up and starts shooting people, then we must sacrifice freedom of assembly. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should restricting access or carriage of guns enter into the picture. Instead, everyone else should carry weapons too. Because that’s just more logical than preventing the wacko from bringing the gun to the rally.

    There is a deep and fundamental paranoia surrounding this mindset. Somehow they think they’re the last thing standing between complete tyranny and sweet, blessed freedom (not voting in fascists is not a consideration, apparently). Because your Kalishnakov is going to be so effective against a tank. Or a drone.

  37. 37
    jl says:

    @sheithappens: you have an apt handle.

  38. 38
    👽 Martin says:

    @Hill Dweller: Michigan legislature is going to push the electorate to violence with this shit. This is stepping beyond democracy. No public discussion on major issues that are clearly unpopular with the public, re-enacting laws immediately after the public overturns them. Are they taking governing lessons from Morsi or something?

  39. 39
    PaulW says:

    Which is more important: an 8-year-old that can grow up to be a healer or leader, or a lump of metal whose only purpose is to kill?

    60 percent of homicides in the U.S. are gun-related. People may kill people, but guns make it too damned easy.

    And anyone who thinks letting guns into schools is a good idea, do try to remember we don’t let anyone drive cars until they’re 16, they earned a license to drive, and they got insurance on their asses. We don’t let college-age young adults drink until 21. But oh yeah, let’s arm up our kids without restraint or respect for the rule of law and common sense! /headdesk

  40. 40
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Grumpy Code Monkey: We know just how valuable the freedom is by measuring the pile of corpses.

    It’s human sacrifice. Wayne LaPierre is a priest of Moloch.

    It’s every bit as bad as what the Aztecs did, and I’m not sure obsidian knives aren’t less objectionable because they don’t go through a wall and kill someone on the other side.

  41. 41
    trollhattan says:

    This is the wrong topic for a new nym and sad, old trollery. Fuck off.

  42. 42
    PeakVT says:

    Going back to the Krugman column posted earlier, gun control is one area of the social agenda where the right-wing has been spectacularly successful. I try to block that out, but reality has an unfortunate habit of reminding me.

  43. 43
    JGabriel says:


    Curious what sites like Free Republic’s first take on this is.

    I can tell you w/o even looking:

    The Freepers won’t express any sympathy for the children or their parents, but will immediately insist that liberals are all evil for politicizing these children’s deaths and the children could have been protected if only Connecticut required teachers to carry handguns to school.


  44. 44
    peach flavored shampoo says:

    I dont understand how a gun-toting teacher makes a diff here. The shooter just knows to make sure he takes out the teacher first, then everyone else is unarmed and without leadership. Unless there’s armed guards in the hallways, I’m not sure how this is fixed with more teachers and guns.

    Then again, I’m a American-hating lefty, so what do I know?

  45. 45
    jl says:

    ” a number of measures are aimed at streamlining a permit process critics say remains far from uniform statewide. ”

    That is BS, and a cynical pretext. Gun control should be local, and local governments should have room to tailor measures to local conditions. What is appropriate for a big city, towns, farm countryside and wilderness will differ. Seems obvious.

    No reason for detailed uniform national, or even state, standards for gun control.

    So I think that is cynical BS pretext, and another demonstration of how hypocritical reactionaries and sold out gun/ammo industry front people are on states rights and local control.

  46. 46
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Martin: I’m not optimistic. If enough Egyptians had basic cable, Tahrir Square would be empty. I don’t ever recall a castle being stormed by a mob with torches in one hand and remotes in the other.

  47. 47
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:


    They’re not successful.

    They’ve flat out fucking won, whole hog. When this shit happens and the immediate solution is ‘MORE GUNS, GUN CONTROL IS COMMIE BULLSHIT FOREVER!’ before anyone makes a peep….

  48. 48
    trollhattan says:


    Only because you asked, via a commenter at LGM brave enough to get off the boat (at Freeperville).

    These shooting are getting the smell of Fast and Furious! Next we’ll hear about some Fed funding on some unrelated program with the perp, like the Aurora, CO movie shooting.
    Notice they are happening in gun control states.

    Crafty libruls, at it again.

  49. 49
    Belafon (formerly anonevent) says:

    @Michael G: I made that statement out loud here, and the guy next to me said “That wouldn’t happen here in Texas. He would only get one or two.” I pointed out all he had to do was walk into one classroom.

  50. 50
    Ron says:

    Pisses me off that the WH made a statement that “today is not the day” to talk about gun control. they buy into that NRA bullshit.

  51. 51
    Yutsano says:

    @danimal: Why do you make the Wayne LaPierre cry? Dontchaknow that the tree of liberty needs to be watered with the blood of innocents every now and again. It doesn’t matter how many innocent kids DIE, just that FREEDUMB!! is sacrosanct above all. And FREEDUMB!! means holding onto as many high-powered guns as a good red-blooded Merikan can own. Otherwise yer just a Islamocommunofascist just like that Obummer in the White House.

    This will be an actual argument from a wingnut. I’d bet a Belgian beer on it.

  52. 52
    chopper says:

    @👽 Martin:

    oh, for fuck’s sake, that isn’t satire.

  53. 53
    zattarra says:

    @David in NY: The Gov. of Michigan’s office can be reached at 517-373-3400. The polite gentleman currently answering the phone said the Gov. has not decided yet whether to sign this law and has 14 days to make up his mind. He would not or could not confirm if the Governor was planning to sign this before today’s tragedy. So if you are in Michigan give the Governor’s office a call and politely let them know how you feel. I’m father of an elementary school student and the child of a teacher – allowing carry in schools is crazy to me.

  54. 54
    The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik says:


    Again, it may not be a day to talk about gun control, but apparently it IS a day to say the complete opposite and propose more guns everywhere, especially in schools because that’s the only way to stop it, and it’s true freedums.

  55. 55
    PeakVT says:

    @Grumpy Code Monkey: Among other things, I think guns are a way for the gun nuts to tell themselves they stand for democracy without having to put in any effort to make a democracy actually work. They may not pay attention to the issues or read any legislation or attend any government meetings, but by gum they’ll be there when the time comes, so they’re just as good as someone like Kay. But back in reality, they’re the problem, not the solution.

  56. 56
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @chopper: Satire is buried next to Irony.

    Satire survived Irony by a few months, as Irony pre-deceased Satire, but it was never the same. After Irony died, something inside Satire just snapped, and Satire gave up.

  57. 57
    peach flavored shampoo says:

    FWIW, the parent of the shooter has been found dead. So he must have offed his parent(s) on the way out. Jesus f’in christ….

  58. 58
    Yutsano says:

    @jl: Durfs gotta Durf after all. You would think after being banned numerous times he would get the hint.

  59. 59
    chopper says:

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent):

    not at all. see, being in texas automatically gives you superhero ninja powers. he would have drawn his gun and blown the perp away before the dude squeezed off his second shot because, well, if video games and action movies have taught me anything it’s that having a gun gives you magic powers.

  60. 60
    Raven says:

    @peach flavored shampoo: No, his mother taught at the school and he killer her there.

  61. 61
    danimal says:

    @Yutsano: Belgian beer can get pricey; I’m going to have to decline your bet.

    Because the gun nuts seem to think the only way to control gun violence is for everyone to be armed. I doubt that leads to safety, but it certainly leads to more profits for gun manufacturers and supply stores.

  62. 62
    Rock says:

    Some state or district will mandate that teachers must be armed after this.

  63. 63
    TG Chicago says:

    In Washington, President Obama was briefed on the shooting, spokesman Jay Carney said.

    Carney wouldn’t say whether the shooting would make gun control a higher priority on the president’s agenda, but he said there would be a day for discussion on that policy issue.

    “But I don’t think today is that day,” he said.

    And tomorrow’s not looking good either. In fact, it looks like the next four years are all booked up.

    I know — leading from behind. Obama’s not going to get out in front of the issue if the people aren’t demanding a change. But it’s pretty depressing.

  64. 64
    Culture of Truth says:

    Orrin Hatch: “I know that as we have before, our country will come together, relying on each other, to heal from this tragedy.”

  65. 65
    Maude says:

    The end of the statement says that Obama is for banning assault weapons. That’s gun control.

  66. 66
    Culture of Truth says:

    Has Newt Gingrich blamed liberals yet?

  67. 67
    sheithappens says:

    The NRA’s response will be, “if only the gun laws allowed Teachers to carry concealed firearms in class this could have been prevented”.

    See because creating a situation where you could have gun battles between teachers and perpetrators over the kids heads is the solution.

    You gotta think like a wingnut sometimes to make sense of the stupidity.

  68. 68
    Jay in Oregon says:


    Don’t forget:
    Obama and the Democrats planned this as a false flag operation so THEY CAN TAKE OUR GUNS! (Limbaugh already shat out that gem.)

    The shooter was probably a Democrat/liberal/Muslim/black person because argle bargle NO RESPECT FOR LIFE!

    If they (the commenter) had been there, the shooter wouldn’t have taken a single life before they expertly drew their gun and killed the shooter dead with a single shot. (I always imagine these stories as ending with “And finally that girl from high school will ask me out!”)

  69. 69
    peach flavored shampoo says:

    @Raven: Not according to this

    One of his parents was later found dead at a home in New Jersey.

    Unless you got more up to date info than me.

    Edit: Well, I’ll be dammed. That sentence has been scrubbed from the article, and the headline changed. So apparently NBC just runs with any fuckin rumor it sees fit, regardless of veracity.

  70. 70
    Raven says:

    @peach flavored shampoo: I do, the father was killed in New Jersey and the mother at the school.

    ” The gunman in the Newtown, Conn., school shooting has been identified as Ryan Lanza, 24, of New Jersey. A dead body has also been found in his parents’ home, officials said. Lanza’s body was found in the school.”

  71. 71
    scav says:

    Everybody reveling in the feeling of good ol’ ‘merkan exceptionalism? I’m hitting the big digital off switch, only protest to media I can manage at the moment. Take care all.

  72. 72
    catclub says:

    @Davis X. Machina: I don’t know about violence, but when Wisconsinites came out in February to protest the Union busting laws, I was impressed.

  73. 73
    Broken Wingnut Tautology says:

    Because the only thing that stops terrorism is more terrorism!

    Because the only thing that stops fire is more fire!

    Because the only thing that stops flooding is more flooding!

    Because the only thing that stops poison chemicals is more poison chemicals!

    Because the only thing that stops oil spills is more oil spills!

    Because the only thing that stops rape is more rape!

    Because the only thing that stops racism is more racism!

    Because the only thing that stops evil is more evil!

    Because the only thing that stops war is more war!

    Because the only thing that stops cancer is more cancer!

    Because the only thing that stops unemployment is more unemployment!

    Because the only thing that stops poverty is more poverty!

    Because the only thing that stops violence is more violence!

    Because the only thing that stops insanity is more insanity!

    Because the only thing that stops drinking is more drinking!

    Because the only thing that stops wingnuts is more wingnuts!

    Because the only thing that stops diarrhea is more diarrhea!

    Because the only thing that stops disease is more disease!

    Because the only thing that stops gambling is more gambling!

    Because the only thing that stops fucking is more fucking!

    Because the only thing that stops tragedy is more tragedy!

    What’s funny is how many of these are actually VERY SERIOUS POSITIONS to have that invoke a lot of chin-stroking.

  74. 74
    Darkrose says:

    For perspective:

    In most states, it would be harder for me to buy a pack of Sudafed than it would be to buy a gun and ammo.

  75. 75
    Dork says:

    @peach flavored shampoo: Yes, NBC has its issues. From your link:

    The gunman, identified as Ryan Lanza, 24, was also found dead at the scene,

    then a few ‘graphs down:

    The motive for the shooting was unknown, and the gunman’s name was not released.

    That’s some top-notch reporting.

  76. 76
    👽 Martin says:

    @chopper: No, there really is a market in the US for bulletproof backpacks for your kids. And that’s not the only company, either.

  77. 77
    debbie says:

    @ August Polk:

    The very first time I heard about militias was when three members of the Michigan Militia were interviewed on the PBS Newshour (or whatever it was called around 1990). Three fat guys in camo, shirt buttons about to pop, insisting that no one could even make them obey the speed limit because it wasn’t specified in the Constitution.

    Well, bad on me for thinking back then that they were harmless whackjobs.

  78. 78
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @catclub: Who controls the state legislature today?

  79. 79
    debbie says:

    Yes, NBC has its issues.

    Similarly CBS. One reporter opined that based on the police chief’s body language, there was only one shooter.

    What kind of posture would that have been?

  80. 80
    PsiFighter37 says:

    I’d bet you a not-unreasonable sum of currency that this will do absolutely ZERO in changing gun policy on a national level. That’s the most fucked-up thing. People getting shot up in a movie theater, at a temple, in a freakin’ kindergarten people – all of these men, women, husbands, wives, children – they’re all dying for no good reason.

    When will we ever be able to break the back of the NRA? All of our politicians (including Obama) are too fucking cowardly to take this issue head-on. And it doesn’t help that the right wing is in absolute thrall of the gun lobby.

    When Charlie Heston said you wouldn’t pry something from his cold, dead, hands, I think he was referring to the balls of Congress.

  81. 81
    Maude says:

    You aren’t old enough to have seen major change in this country. Things don’t change quickly.

  82. 82
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    Shame and shun the NRA. Ideally, with rotten fruit.

  83. 83
    Gravenstone says:

    @Dork: Top notch editing, you mean. For evolving stories, they just tend to append new info to earlier versions of the reporting.

  84. 84
    weaselone says:


    Never going to happen. If the teacher’s unions were armed politicians would feel compelled to treat them with the respect they show for firemen and police officers.

  85. 85
    handsmile says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Not from Morsi I would imagine, as I understand that one of these recently-passed bills bans Shariah law in Michigan. But the totalitarian playbook has many authors and chapters.

    That aside, I fully agree with your remark. I expect you know that Rachel Maddow has been an absolute Cassandra on this subject.

  86. 86
    👽 Martin says:


    The gunman walked into a Connecticut school where his mother was a teacher. He shot and killed her and then shot 18 students in her classroom, an official said.

    Gunman’s younger brother is being held. Doesn’t say whether or how the younger brother was involved.

  87. 87
    Maude says:

    Obama is going to speak about this at 3:15 this afternoon.

  88. 88
    Patrick says:

    This guy was from Hoboken, NJ. There is probably no harder place to get a gun than in New Jersey and within NJ, there is probably no where harder to get a gun, legally, than Hoboken.

    I’m tired of these people who kill people on their way off this planet. I’m tired of the right wing response and the knee jerk liberal response. You cannot get rid of guns any easier than stopping people from taking drugs, driving drunk, or gambling through bookies.

    We will probably find out that current gun laws already precluded this psycho from owning or buying a gun. How about everyone discuss that? Virginia Tech was the same way, that psycho had illegal guns. Hard to think anyone that would kill 18 kindergartners would let a felony gun charge get in the way. Gun dealers in New Jersey, and there aren’t many of them, are incredibly careful about selling guns. To buy a gun in NJ you have to do a 4-6 month background and interview with the State police or the local police captain.

    Can anyone say anything besides the fairy tale of “gun control” or making jokes about kindergartners carrying concealed? It is just lazy.


  89. 89
    Suffern ACE says:

    @PsiFighter37: Seriously, at this point the closest shooting incidents can come to changing laws is when they can be traced to forms of music that aren’t popular with mainstream audiences. And then the discussion will be limited to whether or not parental warnings are good enough or whether we should just undo the censorship protections that we have.

    ETA: I mean, didn’t we already have someone go into a schoolhouse and kill Amish children? And the response to that is the same as what we’ll see now.

  90. 90
    jwb says:

    So MSM evidently got hold of the wrong FB profile and is making life hell for the dude.

  91. 91
    Culture of Truth says:

    Truly you are having a bad day at work when you find out you have been identified in the national media as a mass murderer of children.

  92. 92
    Culture of Truth says:

    You cannot get rid of guns any easier than stopping people from taking drugs, driving drunk, or gambling through bookies.

    Excellent news because drunk driving is way down.

  93. 93
    quannlace says:

    Speaking of Michigan… Seems the Gov was so hell-bent to ram the Right to Work legislation through that he forgot to read the bill itself and his own state’s Constitution. They may have no legal right to implement the law.

  94. 94
    👽 Martin says:


    I expect you know that Rachel Maddow has been an absolute Cassandra on this subject.

    Yeah, she’s been doing a fantastic job covering it.

    It’s not just that the MI legislature has been doing this, it’s how they’re doing it which is the problem. No public hearings, very rapid introduction/passage, very reactionary attitude.

    Public participation in the legislative process is part of our democratic tradition, and MI legislature very deliberately bypassing that in order to pass things that clearly the voters oppose is a dangerous thing.

  95. 95
    Culture of Truth says:

    ‘Both sides are equally to blame!’ That is not lazy at all. Also he may not be from Hoboken or NJ.

  96. 96
    Broken Wingnut Tautology says:


    So therefore, gun violence is inevitable and unchangable, indeed, a fact of life much like the weather, and we should do nothing but offer useless prayers, like we did after 9/11 and Pearl Harbor.

  97. 97
    pseudonymous in nc says:


    Can anyone say anything besides the fairy tale of “gun control” or making jokes about kindergartners carrying concealed? It is just lazy.

    Your learned helplessness is showing there.

  98. 98
    Nylund says:

    I’m a Texan and a university professor at a Texas school. I also shoot guns quite frequently. I am hardly and anti-gun zealot. In fact, we just celebrated a friend’s birthday at the range shooting all sorts of handguns.

    That being said, if I’m teaching and a student leans over and I see a holster inside a jacket holding a pistol, I want to be able to call the cops and have that student removed from my classroom. I do not want to be forced to just stand there, teach, and wonder, “why the heck does this person have a gun in my class? What are they planning on doing?” without having any course of action or response until that student decides to pull it out and start shooting people.

  99. 99
    Suffern ACE says:

    @Culture of Truth: Geez. And I forget that if that list ain’t protected, the media will be all over his friends looking for quotes about how he was always a quiet guy who liked ninja movies and cocker spaniels.

  100. 100
    JCT says:

    @JGabriel: Mixed in with the conspiracy whackos who will argue that the govt staged this to have an excuse to take their guns.

    We’ve lost this argument completely. Aren’t there something like 300 million guns out there and 50% of households have one?

    We’ll never get them back and I don’t know what the answer is.

  101. 101
    👽 Martin says:

    @jwb: Wait, you mean there are two people named Ryan living in the US. Holy fuck. How did we let that happen?

  102. 102
    Culture of Truth says:

    Gun dealers in New Jersey, and there aren’t many of them, are incredibly careful about selling guns.

    You do realize this happened in Connecticut, a place not in New Jersey.

  103. 103
    JPL says:

    Since shortly after ten this morning, I have followed the story and my heart breaks for the children and parents at that school. Maybe the President can’t lead on the gun control issue but we can. Blogs are now an important carrier of the message.

  104. 104
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Patrick: Well I guess there is nothing to say then. Let’s just give up.

  105. 105
    Pooh says:

    FREEDOM bitches.

  106. 106
    Napoleon says:


    Isn’t that like the 3 or 4th time in the last few months the press has done this?

  107. 107
    Calouste says:

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    Shame and shun gun owners. Even if they are not a member of the NRA, a percentage of the money they spend on guns and ammo goes to the gun lobby that pushes all these insane gun laws.

  108. 108
    JCT says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    You do realize this happened in Connecticut, a place not in New Jersey.

    At least one of his parents lived in NJ, I think some news reports said he lived with them.

  109. 109
    JPL says:

    The President wiping away tears said it was time to discuss what we need to do as a nation.

  110. 110
    Calouste says:


    A percentage of the profit on every bullet you fire goes to organizations that push through laws that allow that student to carry a gun in your classroom. You might think about that next time you go to the shooting range.

  111. 111
    Patrick says:

    @Culture: I didn’t say both sides are equally to blame. I said this unproductive knee jerk talk about taking all the guns in the USA and dumping them in the Atlantic Ocean, then stopping the bootlegging of guns across the borders, is as silly as the jokes about arming schoolkids.

    I’m sure it will be shown that the shooter broke many current laws on buying, owning, and possessing the guns and maybe even the body armor. I would just like to know how more laws would help?

    Norway had a similar tragedy not long ago and has some of the toughest gun regulations in existence.

    We all like to make fun of the Right’s anti-science stances. But the Left’s gun control positions are simply outside of reality and completely irrational.


  112. 112
    pharniel says:

    @Calouste: Yes because my firearms aren’t antiques or anything, handed down from father to son and uncle to nephew.

    Let’s just shun me because I haven’t melted down family heirlooms.

  113. 113
    Culture of Truth says:

    At least one of his parents lived in NJ

    Fine, but there is no law in America that says you can only buy a gun where your parents live.

  114. 114
    RobertDSC-PowerMac 466 says:

    Shame and shun the NRA. Ideally, with -rotten fruit- Hellfire missiles.


    I’m of a minority in that the 2nd Amendment should be revoked. Full stop.

  115. 115
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Martin: What happens when the voters are wrong?
    When the wrong people are voters?

    There’s a rolling crisis of legitimacy in this country. The fundamental consensus behind majoritiarian government, and what the state is for, is rapidly eroding. Probably faster at the state level than the federal level, too.

  116. 116
    Raven says:

    @JPL: He’ll get ridiculed by the scumbags for that.

  117. 117
    Eric U. says:

    dead Amish kindergarteners didn’t do it, I can’t imagine that these kids died for any greater good either

  118. 118
    trollhattan says:

    Other Western nations…okay…all other Western nations have lower gun death rates than the US. How do they do it?

    I’d start there.

    I’d like to see Bloomberg lead a national effort after he leaves office. He’s not afraid of the NRA and indeed, is taking them on directly.

  119. 119
    Hill Dweller says:

    @JPL: That was the most emotional I’ve ever seen the President. He barely made it through the statement.

  120. 120
    Patrick says:

    @Satan: It might not be solvable, not everything is. I can guarantee that passing laws making it harder to buy a gun legally is not going to prevent any of these tragedies. Nobody who would execute 18 school kids is going to think twice about buying a gun illegally.

  121. 121
    Maude says:

    I listened to him on the radio. There was a long pause after he spoke of the children. It was silent in the press room.
    Obama said everything that should have been said.

  122. 122
    Ash says:

    @Patrick: Why are you sure it’ll be shown that he broken laws? Apparently the guy in Oregon stole his, but the guy in Colorado got all his guns nice and LEGAL.

  123. 123
    Napoleon says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    Fine, but there is no law in America that says you can only buy a gun where your parents live

    Not only that but we are talking NJ where what, 90% of the population is a 10 minute drive from NY or PA?

  124. 124
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Hill Dweller: He has kids.

  125. 125
    JCT says:

    @Culture of Truth: No fucking shit — I was replying as to why people might think he was from NJ and might have obtained his guns there.

  126. 126
    japa21 says:

    @Patrick: Would not prevent any of these tragedies? That is a pretty strong statement. Care to try to back it up?

  127. 127
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Patrick: I submit that to sum and dismiss the “Left’s gun control positions,” all of them, in entirety, as “simply outside of reality and completely irrational” is itself irrational. There may be some that positions held by people on the left that are irrational or highly unrealistic, some not. Some new laws might help, some not. We won’t get very far announcing in advance that every position held by those on right and left are irrational and therefore beyond disucssion. (or is only the Left?)

    And no, I don’t think everyone on the right is anti-science, although a troubling number seem to be.

  128. 128
    jl says:

    @RobertDSC-PowerMac 466:

    ” Shame and shun the NRA. Ideally, with rotten fruit Hellfire missiles. ”

    When SCOUTS says in next couple of years that 2nd Amendment covers Hellfire missiles, and we get sufficiently strong ‘stand your ground’ laws, that approach might be feasible. It would result in a godawful mess for that very reason.

    As for some trolls, like Patrick, I do not think is is lazy to push back against forces in this society that are using this tragedy to argue for even weaker, more irresponsible, unwise and counterproductive gun laws.

  129. 129
    pharniel says:

    So honestly – I was going to wade in at LGF but fuck that noise – there’s not much difference against an unarmoured target between a number of LR .22 rounds and an ‘assault rife’ or 9mm round in terms of ‘fuck you uppedness’ – the .22 is less likely to kill you but it sure as fuck can cripple.

    So since fire arms are inherently dangerous why don’t get just go full on licensing – and while we’re at it gut all these bullshit ‘ninja’/’martial arts’ laws that make it perfectly legal for me to tote around a ruger mini-14 but not a sickle. Right to bear arms means the right to be armed – and temper this right with the responsibility that if you’re going to be armed you should damned well know what you’re doing and be able to demonstrate solid sound judgement.

    banning ‘assault’ weapons just leads to arguments about what or what is an assault weapon since full autos are already banned – and then you get into corner cases and fuck that noise.

    weapon ownership == responsibility to everyone else to use them properly.

    The real issue is mental illness and alienation but, y’know, since the GOP is pretty much fuled by crazy and violent resentment we’ll have to have that conversation later.

  130. 130

    Fuck the NRA you may or may not have a right to own a gun based on some obscure text but I know sure as hell that a parent has a right to drop their child off at school and not have to pick them up in a fucking body bag.

  131. 131
    SatanicPanic says:

    @Patrick: That’s ridiculous. More legally available guns = more illegally available guns. I don’t see how that is even controversial. What if, due to scarcity, an illegal gun cost $10,000? Would it be crazy to suspect that he would have just stabbed his mom and dad and been done with it?

  132. 132
    cmorenc says:

    What especially wildly inappropriate timing for the Michigan legislature to pass such a sweeping carry-concealed-everywhere including schools bill, just hours before some nut shot up an elementary school in Connecticutt and killed more than a score of children.

    There are dangerous psychotics running amok with guns, but unfortunately they are in the Michigan legislature.

  133. 133
    Calouste says:


    I’m sure it will be shown that the shooter broke many current laws on buying, owning, and possessing the guns and maybe even the body armor. I would just like to know how more laws would help?

    I wonder why you are so sure? In a significant number of mass shootings the guns involved were bought and owned legally.

    Well, I hope that NRA check buys you something to eat that goes well with the blood of innocent children.

  134. 134
    Davis X. Machina says:

    It’s not an exaggeration to call firearms the state religion.

    Maine State Constitution: “Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.”.

    What else receives this level of deference? Christianity certainly doesn’t….

  135. 135
    Culture of Truth says:

    @JCT: I know that. And I was replying to Patrick/ We’re arguing over nothing, as happens on the Internet.

  136. 136
    chopper says:


    Can anyone say anything besides the fairy tale of “gun control” or making jokes about kindergartners carrying concealed? It is just lazy.

    ‘fuck you’. does that work?

  137. 137
    Calouste says:


    If you keep them as family heirlooms, you can have them disabled.

  138. 138
    👽 Martin says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    You do realize this happened in Connecticut, a place not in New Jersey.

    He’s from NJ. Apparently the first shooting took place in NJ. Gun laws in CT aren’t much less restrictive, FWIW.

    I take Patrick’s point, and he’s correct in this instance regarding the law. Anders Breivik shouldn’t have happened either – Norway’s gun laws are even more restrictive than anything in the US.

    But the problem in the US isn’t that the gun laws are overly lax, it’s that guns are both anonymous because the NRA won’t abide by effectively tracking who actually owns each gun, and because guns are fetishized. They’re how Americans prove their masculinity and power and independence. That image isn’t of a hunter or sportsman but of a gunslinger. There’s a long and honored tradition of firearms manufacturing and ownership in the UK, but the social image of a UK gun owner is a gentleman with a hunting rifle, where the US image is a commoner with two six-shooters of justice at his hip. In other places it’s a rebel with an AK-47 fighting an oppressor, or the gangbanger with a MAC-10 trying to carve out an (albeit illegal) life of opportunity.

    How we view guns in our society shapes how we employ them, somewhat regardless of what the law says. But there’s no way in this country to divorce gun laws from those attitudes. If the gun supporters would just stop pushing the fetishization of guns and instead legitimately construct an attitude of responsible gun ownership, the calls for gun restriction would go down. But they can’t. They overreach in every possible way – right down to cheering on folks like Timothy McVeigh and Zimmerman not because of their positions but because they were man enough to haul out and use the heavy artillery. That’s bullshit. That needs to end, and if guns need to be banned on the way to that point, then so be it.

  139. 139
  140. 140
    Patrick says:

    It is illegal to buy a handgun in a State you don’t live in. Sounds like the shooter used a rifle though. It is illegal for a New Jersey resident to buy a rifle in NY or PA without a NJ issued Firearms Purchase license.

    To get a NJ issued Firearms License is a 4-6 month ordeal that involves fingerprinting, interview with police officer(s), and the police interviewing 2 or more people that know you. Every time you change your address you have to do it again! It is unlike any other State in how difficult it is to legally buy a firearm.

    NJ has an Assault Rifle ban in place, didn’t stop this guy. Bans on clip size, thumb grips, folding stocks, etc. More than two dozen specific types of guns that are not allowed to be sold at all.

    I’m sure the shooter had the guns illegally. Again, how do you stop that with more laws?

  141. 141
    cckids says:

    @Patrick: What about Internet sales? Gun shows? Also, Jersey is a pretty small state, wouldn’t take much time to drive to somewhere close & buy a gun. I don’t think you are obligated to buy your firearms in the state in which you live.

  142. 142
    kdaug says:

    @pseudonymous in nc:

    Gun compulsion zones. Hence, more sales for the NRA-funding gun-pushers.

    Haven’t been through all the comments yet, but:

    I’m waiting for the first fucker to suggest we arm five-year-olds.

  143. 143
    weaselone says:


    That’s mainly a consequence of how awash the US is in guns. If there were fewer guns, more carefully controlled and monitored both by their owners and the government we would probably have less gun crime. Of course that genie is already out of the bottle and it’s not going back in. Realistically, the only way to reduced gun crime is to tackle the socioeconomic issues that lead to these outbreaks of violence. At the same time requiring licenses and a level of training commensurate with what we require for automobiles is just common sense.

  144. 144
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @liberal: Not in black-letter law.

  145. 145
    liberal says:


    NJ has an Assault Rifle ban in place, didn’t stop this guy.

    Let me take a wild swing at it…uh, national regulations that won’t completely stop anything, but make the weapons covered much harder to get and thus much more rare?

  146. 146
    AndoChronic says:

    Fear, which American culture is proficient in exploiting is toxic. I would also argue that this isn’t necessarily only a gun issue, it’s also a cultural issue.

  147. 147
    Calouste says:


    Really? You think it is just as easy to find an illegal gun dealer as it is to find to nearest Walmart?

  148. 148
    FlipYrWhig says:

    The problem is that the Constitution has a truly stupid provision in it. There are a lot of sane things that could be done to make better laws — if not for the stupid Second Amendment. I don’t know what’s to be done about that, beyond amending the Constitution, which seems like a stretch…

  149. 149
    JCT says:

    @Culture of Truth: Yeah — didn’t mean to bark. I’m just heartsick today.

    I’ve been a target shooter my entire life, I have no idea in the world how you point a weapon at a child.

    And we have lost this argument in this country.

  150. 150
  151. 151
    Citizen Alan says:

    I think I have a solution that would solve most of these problems without banning any type of firearm or otherwise running afoul of the Second Amendment. Hell, it’s even a “market solution.” Simply pass a law establishing that gun sellers (whether in gun shops, at gun shows, or even private sales) can be held civilly liable for any resulting damages if the buyer uses a gun purchased from the seller during the commission of a felony within, say, a year after purchase. I bet if their own livelihoods were on the line, these assholes would suddenly get a lot more attentive to whether that guy looking to buy yet another semi-auto is also wearing a “tree of liberty/blood of patriots” T-shirt.

  152. 152
    liberal says:

    @Davis X. Machina:
    There are certainly joint Congressional resolutions that receive near-unanimity in vote. Not “laws” in the sense of statutes, of course.

  153. 153
    WereBear says:

    @weaselone: One thing Canada has, that we do not, is not only less gun violence.

    It has a law that the “news” cannot lie. This is why Fox News cannot operate in Canada.

    Perhaps the solution is not to wrestle the whole gun control debate again, especially in this case… but what is stirring these people up? What is causing the run on guns and ammo? What is making these gun nuts so paranoid?

    I think we can find that out, can’t we?

  154. 154
    PsiFighter37 says:

    @trollhattan: That is one of Bloomberg’s redeeming qualities, at least – he’s always made it clear the NRA can stick it where the sun don’t shine, and his Super PAC cleaned out at least one NRA-friendly Democrat (Joe Baca) this election.

    I firmly believe that if Madison & Co. were alive today, they would’ve said, “Why the fuck do we need the 2nd Amendment now? Let’s repeal that shit.”

  155. 155
    Calouste says:

    @Davis X. Machina:

    Slavery got the same level of deference in the constitution of the CSA. Just saying…

  156. 156
    trollhattan says:


    I’m sure the shooter had the guns illegally.

    Care to table that assertion at least long enough for the blood to dry, Skippy?

  157. 157
    Culture of Truth says:

    @Patrick: Thank you. That was a cogent argument.

    Again, how do you stop that with more laws?

    That’s a good question. I don’t know the answer, but it should be asked and explored without dismissing half the nation as irrational.

  158. 158
    Elizabelle says:

    Too much for a bumpersticker.

    I am thinking a window banner, for our cars, with class pictures of the dead kindergarteners, and their dead teachers. All the dead innocents from this mass murder.

    And a slogan:

    Freedom means the freedom to grow up. Or at least to make it to second grade.

    It does not really matter who did this, or why. It’s just happening too often.

    I wasn’t shocked on hearing this. Just a great weariness.

    And now sadness, thinking of the people who went to school this morning, and many were looking forward to the Christmas holidays. The little kids in rooms decorated for the season.

    And now they’re lying silent in classrooms and hallways, streams and splatter of blood, brain matter on the floors.

    They don’t count, because the NRA and gun manufacturers and gun nuts give money to legislators, and won’t allow us to live in peace.

    We need to fight back against the freedom means guns everywhere crowd.

  159. 159
    JCT says:

    @👽 Martin: This.

    This is exactly the issue. Just check out any gun forum and there are multiple discussions regarding CCW and the “best” holster to use to carry. The paranoia mixed with uber-testosterone “issues” is mind-blowing and profoundly scary.

  160. 160
    jibeaux says:

    @👽 Martin: Well, it would be two 24 year old white guys living in New Jersey born in Connecticut named Ryan Lanza….the living Ryan Lanza apparently thinks the shooter maybe stole his identity? It seems like the details reported are changing even more quickly than usual with these stories.

  161. 161
    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us? (formerly MarkJ) says:

    @trollhattan: I think it starts with universal health care, which gets people with mental illnesses access to care and treatment. These guys are all crazy – if they’d been treated by a psychiatrist maybe at least some of them wouldn’t have decided to shoot a bunch of other people. I’m all for sane gun control laws as well, but really it starts with treating mental illness.

    That’s what bugs me about the right. They say it’s not the guns, it’s the people. But then treating the mental problems of the people is SOCIALISM so what’s their solution? You can’t just wish the crazy away and I don’t see them trying to do anything about the crazy except encourage it.

  162. 162
    liberal says:

    To commit an act like this must be the outcome of some serious mental illness. That, combined with Martin’s point about gun culture, is the cause of these “outlier” events like mass school shootings.

  163. 163
    pharniel says:

    @Calouste: Nearest gunshow and/or shooting range.
    Assuming you are white and male of course. Or female and a known ‘supporter’ of the cause.

    The whole ‘militia’ culture has seeped into otherwise useful institutions.

    ‘Militia’ in this case being shorthand for white-power anti-government conspiracy theory nutjobs.

    It’s entirely an emotional issue to the core for at least 60% of Michigan. For the other 40% you are literally talking about something that puts food on the table.

    The family rifle isn’t a fancy toy that they have a right to it’s what puts 2-300 pounds of meat in the freezer every fall. Now there’s a world of difference between a hunting rifle and an ar-15 but that’s facts and figure – emotionally it feels like you’re after my metric wrenches and you’ll be going for my imperial ones next all because some asshole used them to drop a bridge with people on it.

    It’s persecution complex and self identity rolled into one toxic mixture served up and sprayed down for over 50 years.

  164. 164
    cckids says:

    Wow, I did not know that, thank you. And, no, though I believe in way more gun control than we have, the laws from Jersey sound a lot like what I think would do the most good. (aside from the above-mentioned making ammo viscously expensive).

    Gun control/education/training, by & large, will cut down on the accidental & one-off rage shootings. The psychos like the guy this morning will, sadly, still find a way. There are just WAY too many guns floating around this country now. It isn’t like Europe, where there are fewer guns because there has been gun control for decades.

    There isn’t an easy solution. There is such a mentality here about guns that is the main thing that needs to change, and I don’t know how to do it, just that we do need to do it. I suppose, like any big social movement, we just need to begin. It will take decades, like women’s or gay rights did. But if we think only in terms of getting it done right away, it will never happen.

  165. 165
    Patrick says:

    Sorry if I’m coming across as a dick. I really get depressed and angry about these a-holes killing kids. It doesn’t help me to scream at politicians to ban guns, because I know that would be as useful as banning pot. But it did help to vent here a little bit. The Right is worse on this issue, but the Left, of which I’m a part on every issue but this one, is not really coming up with practical solutions. Maybe there is no solution.

    Maybe schools need to be treated like County Court Houses or airplanes. Nobody in without going through a metal detector. This guy’s mom worked at the school. My kids’ school is pretty tough on security, but I’m sure they would let in their own children.

    Would the NRA agree to a new tax on gun sales to finance metal detectors and armed police at every school? Might be too expensive per gun. How about we raise the top rate from 39% to 41% and not buy an aircraft carrier or two? I think that is more doable than “banning guns”.

    Thanks everyone. A horrible day. Or should I say, Another horrible day.

  166. 166
    Davis X. Machina says:

    @Calouste: So we know what’s really fundamental, and what’s merely peripheral, in both societies.

    The worship of firearms, and not, say, Protestant Christianity, or even Christianity, turns out to be the state religion.

    “The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church” (Tertullian, Apologeticus, Chapter 50)

  167. 167
    liberal says:

    While some of the stuff, e.g. poverty causing tensions causing domestic abuse leading to men shooting their wives, is socioeconomic, some isn’t, unless you adopt a very broad definition of “socio,” or one which includes factors like the ones Martin outlined.

  168. 168
    piratedan says:

    guns are just like congressmen…. it’s never THEIR guns or congressman that’s the issue, it’s YOUR guns or congressman.

  169. 169
    Elliecat says:

    @👽 Martin:

    because guns are fetishized

    Not to mention idolized. I wonder how many conservative Christians who want the Ten Commandments posted everywhere realize they are breaking one with their gun-obsession and elevation of guns in importance above everything else, including human life.

  170. 170
    Culture of Truth says:

    I think a lot of schools do have metal detectors, and try to prevent strangers from getting in, but it’s an elementary school, not Fort Knox, so who knows

  171. 171
    liberal says:


    It doesn’t help me to scream at politicians to ban guns, because I know that would be as useful as banning pot.

    Straw man: no one’s talking about banning guns, but rather regulating them.

  172. 172
    What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us? (formerly MarkJ) says:

    Oh and fuck Rick Snyder with a rusty fucking pitchfork for doing his best to wreck the State I grew up in in the space of two weeks. Asshole.

  173. 173
    pseudonymous in nc says:

    @👽 Martin:

    the social image of a UK gun owner is a gentleman with a hunting rifle

    Or a farmer with a shotgun.

    Fuck the second amendment. It’s not the 17-fucking-90s any more.

  174. 174
    weaselone says:


    So you feel our winner take almost all economic system with moth eaten safety nets coupled with our lack of a decent national health care system complete with access to mental health services doesn’t contribute significantly to our murder rate? Did I mention how this society tends to regard and treat mental illness as some sort of morale failing and hide it in the attic as opposed to treating it like a real illness?

  175. 175
    liberal says:


    The family rifle isn’t a fancy toy that they have a right to it’s what puts 2-300 pounds of meat in the freezer every fall.

    Yawn. My old man lives in a state with a musket season, and bags plenty of deer that way. It’s probably not so useful for killing 18 kids, though.

  176. 176
    Mike in NC says:


    When Charlie Heston said you wouldn’t pry something from his cold, dead, hands, I think he was referring to the balls of Congress.

    Well said! We have the best Congress money can buy, after all.

  177. 177
    pseudonymous in nc says:


    Maybe schools need to be treated like County Court Houses or airplanes. Nobody in without going through a metal detector.

    Maybe five-year-olds need to be equipped with kevlar at orientation, along with pencils and paper?

    Seriously, how much fucking personal freedom do people have to give up in order to sustain the sanctified Freedom™ of the holy blessed gun and its worshippers? It’s a hostage situation.

  178. 178
    greennotGreen says:

    So the right wing thinks the solution to the country’s problems is more guns, lower taxes, and less government. Somalia should be a paradise for them, except for all the black people.

  179. 179
    jl says:


    OK, thanks. But I think you are too kind to the ‘right’ and too hard on the ‘left’.

    I am not particularly fond of very strict gun control laws. When I lived in poor neighborhoods, a couple of which had very high crime rates, I knew plenty of older people and honest working stiffs who had a gun in the house for self protection. I don’t feel comfortable with gun control that would take those away, even in big cities.

    But the ‘Right’ is playing a dishonest game, in my opinion. The NRA and parts of the GOP are simply front groups for the industry and no lie, no hypocrisy, no false dealing is beyond them.

    The NRA has a speck of point when they say that what we need is better enforcement of laws we have. Who could argue with that, for any set of laws for that matter? But who will be running to court to stop any improved enforcement, any regulatory decision that interferes with selling more guns and ammo now now now? The NRA that’s who.

    There are many people in this country who believe, either because there is money in it for them, or they are scared, or deluded, that making the gun control situation worse is the best response to this tragedy.

    I agree with other commenters that pushing back against the NRA and their allies is the proper response in the face of tragedies like this.

    If you interpret that as mindlessly advocating for more gun control, fine. I don’t care.

  180. 180
    JCT says:

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us? (formerly MarkJ): Actually, that “hey kids, let’s carry guns to school law” is sitting on his desk right now. Maybe somewhere there’s a journalist who wants to ask that asshole when he’s going to sign it?

  181. 181
    Calouste says:

    @What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us? (formerly MarkJ):

    There’s a reason that in democracies there are no lame duck sessions. Parliament dissolves before the election and the newly elected MPs convene for a new parliament after the election. And if you lost your seat, well, there’s the dole queue.

  182. 182
    greennotGreen says:

    And, as a reminder:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Perhaps the solution to our lack of gun control problem is to enforce the first part of the amendment. If you want to own a gun, you have to participate in a well regulated militia securing the freedom of your state. (National Guard, anyone?)

  183. 183
    karen marie says:

    Called Snyder’s office. Woman who took the call told me to go screw – “you don’t even live in Michigan.”

    That’s right, and I sure as hell will never set foot in Michigan either.

  184. 184
    calabi-yeow says:

    So, let me get this straight….

    We need to lock down all schools, malls, movie theaters (heck, lock down all public spaces)………just so we can protect the sanctity of the Second fucking Amendment?

    This is freedom in America? For whom?

    Apparently, those 18 babies gave their lives for the Second Amendment. Obscenity of obscenities

  185. 185
    Ruckus says:

    I also seem to remember a while back we had a shooting at another Texas school. From a tower if I remember correctly. One might think that more Texans might think guns at schools would be a bad thing. One also might think that arming people in charge of 8-10 yr old kids might be a bad thing. One would be mistaken.
    I’d like to understand this whole gun clusterfuck. I used to be a hunter and owned and shot handguns. It is fun. I was almost shot 4 times by my friends, once at very close range with a .357 hollow point which would have blown off half my head. And that was friends! That’s when I decided that I needed better friends and less guns.
    Our society has gotten older, it has not gained anything in the way of maturity. We still have the guns are great ideal that dime novels told of the old west. It was bullshit then and it is bullshit now. I am beginning to think there are no responsible gun owners. I know this is wrong, there must be at least a few, but then we have news like this morning and I hear many calling for more fucking guns, less control and all will be well. That doesn’t bode well for convincing me that there are more than one or two percent of responsible gun owners and the rest are fucking crazy.

  186. 186
    Bnad says:

    Romney Ryan Lanza lawn signs still available

  187. 187
    Gravenstone says:

    @weaselone: I’d go out on a limb and suggest we mandate mental health screening for everyone in this country. Then we can talk. I’d start with elected officials, then we can move onto corporate officers and board members, before working our way down through the populace at large. Maybe we actually put LaPierre first in line. I’m sure he’s got all sorts of godsdamned bats loose in his particular belfrey.

  188. 188
    Patrick says:

    Straw man: no one’s talking about banning guns, but rather regulating them.

    Regulating to what end? To stop school shootings? How do you regulate guns, beyond what is done now, to stop these suicide attacks?

    There are very serious laws against murder. I don’t see how less serious (in the penalty) and far less enforceable laws against buying guns stops someone who would break the law against murder. My original point is that New Jersey has all the regulation against buying guns anyone could ask for, and it seems to have done nothing to stop this guy or guys.

    Maybe he bought his guns in Kansas and moved them. Maybe he got them at a gun show in Ohio. Then I’m off base and I apologize. But I just don’t think you can pass laws to stop suicide shooters (or bombers for that matter which is probably what you would get if somehow you could ban guns).

  189. 189
    mclaren says:

    Concealed guns allowed in school.

    What could possibly go wrong?

  190. 190
    JPL says:

    @calabi-yeow: That would only highlight the culture of violence in our country. Guns are protected under the 2nd amendment..ammo (magazines) aren’t.

  191. 191
    Patrick says:

    @Calabi: You miss my point. I was simply throwing out a way to stop suicide shooters at schools. If you are saying my solution is impractical, I don’t disagree totally. But so is the solution to somehow pass laws that keep guns out of the hands of suicide shooters. People that would honor gun laws don’t execute 5 year olds.

  192. 192
    👽 Martin says:


    Maybe schools need to be treated like County Court Houses or airplanes. Nobody in without going through a metal detector. This guy’s mom worked at the school. My kids’ school is pretty tough on security, but I’m sure they would let in their own children.

    That’s impossible here in Cali. Our schools are open campuses. They look more like colleges with buildings strewn all over the place – it never snows here, and rarely rains, so interior hallways are just a waste of lighting and air conditioning. Hell, my kids have never attended a school with a cafeteria or auditorium. Lunch is outdoors every day except if its raining they eat at their desk. My daughter’s elementary school has at least 8 exterior entrances around the main building where there are some hallways, and every single classroom has an exterior door, which is the main door for the classroom. And when they need another classroom, they just drop down another pair of 10×36 trailers and shove another 40 kids in.

    You’d have to run concertina wire around the perimeter of the school grounds to achieve even a minimal measure of security.

  193. 193
    Patrick says:

    Really? You think it is just as easy to find an illegal gun dealer as it is to find to nearest Walmart?

    It is in New Jersey! Walmart doesn’t sell guns in New Jersey because the regulations are too onerous for them (more likely, they would have to train and pay the salesmen too much).

    It would be sad to think this guy got these guns in the most gun regulated jurisdiction in the USA. It might turn out he didn’t. But if he did, some around here should pause and think about what can be accomplished by regulating the legal sale of guns.

  194. 194
    Gian says:

    Because NJ is so far from Virginia where its damn easy to buy a gun this mass murderer of children must have bought it in Jersey.
    Fuck dude its a device made to kill things. Not your penis

  195. 195
    👽 Martin says:


    The NRA has a speck of point when they say that what we need is better enforcement of laws we have.

    Except they oppose every effort to enforce the laws we have. Background check and waiting period are the law? But what about online sales and gun shows!

    The NRA is not an advocacy group for the 2nd Amendment or the constitution. They’re a lobby for gun and ammunition manufacturers and accessory makers. They’re about as interested in reducing gun violence as the National Coal Institute is in addressing climate change. Their only agenda is moar guns. Period. Full stop.

  196. 196
    PurpleGirl says:

    I’ve been watching the Investigation Discovery channel lately. Lots of commentary on the true crime stories, lots about murder.

    The analysts subscribe to the idea that (1) a gun is the quicker way to kill and the most distancing between killer and victim; (2) a knife takes more time and is less distancing; and (3) strangling the victim is the most personal and close up way to kill.

  197. 197
    AndoChronic says:

    I think the etiology of behavior like this can be easier to identify and modify than we’re making it. Everyone sees rude and perhaps violent behavior from their fellow country persons on a daily basis I’m sure. Why is that? Is it because we put individualism on steroids in this country, do not have adequate mental health options, profit from continuous war(s), are predisposed to violence, or just don’t care enough about each other? The question needs to be asked, what happened in these people’s lives which results in conclusions like this? Let’s remember this Ryan guy was once an innocent kindergartener too, what happened? I think we do not put enough of a premium on love in this country, perhaps it’s just not marketable or profitable enough. Here’s your bumper sticker “You can’t give hugs with bear arms”.

  198. 198
    Calouste says:


    New Jersey? The shooting is in Connecticut. Where does this New Jersey connection come from?

  199. 199
    Paul says:


    I’m sure the shooter had the guns illegally. Again, how do you stop that with more laws?

    Then why don’t we make all drugs legal, since people that want drugs can get them anyway illegally. And let’s keep abortions legal, since women will find a way to get illegally anyway.

    Gun control works in other countries.

  200. 200
    Gindy51 says:

    @👽 Martin: Believe it or not, we had that at my HS in La Puente in the 70’s. Locked gates with wire on top, it looked like a prison (felt like it too).
    You could not leave except out the front door.

  201. 201

    @David in NY:

    Anybody got the good governor’s phone number?


  202. 202
    El Cid says:

    @👽 Martin: It’s always a lie. Whenever the NRA or 2nd Amendment fetishists start blabbering about how many laws we already got and we need to enforce them, etc., they’re lying.

    Because they want the existing laws gone, they’re doing everything they can to get rid of them, and they fight every damn attempt to enforce the not-yet-eliminated laws and regulations they can.

    And before, during, and after that process, scream about ‘tyranny’ all the time.

  203. 203
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Culture of Truth:

    Connecticut and New Jersey are not far apart, you know. It’s a pretty fast trip on the Cross Bronx expressway.

  204. 204
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @👽 Martin:

    Just this.

    The NRA is the front man for the merchants of death.

  205. 205
    Gian says:

    Just wanted to say wow. I heard local espn affiliate 710 in LA this afternoon. The hosts said to paraphrase. On a day like today it doesn’t make sense to talk laker losing streaks or free agent baseball signings… and they started going into mass shootings since the assault weapons ban ended.
    At least between that and bob costas there might be a change in conversation nationally. Id post a link put im on a cell phone… mason and ireland… please consider sending them an email of support

  206. 206
    johnny aquitard says:


    Regulating to what end? To stop school shootings?

    Yes you stupid fuck. That is the whole point.

    Guns are really good at killing, including people. And Guns makes it possible for a shooter to kill lots of people in a very short time while the shooter stands out of reach.

    Because they can be misused so easily and cause so much damage so quickly, they damn well should be heavily regulated.

    Don’t tell me about the inviolate sanctity of the fucking 2nd Amendment. Voting is a constitutional right and we’ve all seen the GOP-controlled state leges introduce all kinds of legislation to ostensibly regulate the free and unabridged exercise of that right.

    I am a gun owner and this is so fucking obvious to me. Why not to you?

    Damn you are fucking obtuse.

  207. 207
    johnny aquitard says:

    @El Cid:

    Whenever the NRA or 2nd Amendment fetishists start blabbering about how many laws we already got and we need to enforce them, etc., they’re lying.

    Of course they’re lying. They don’t have a problem circumscribing the right to vote. All those voter id laws were nothing if not infringing and regulating that constitutional right.

    They have no prob with that, natch. Because teh Blahs vote, and frightened white people want their guns.

  208. 208
    Sgaile-beairt says:

    maybe we need, to ask, Whats the matter with michigan, now….draconian labour laws, antiabortion laws, what next???

  209. 209
    Broken Wingnut Tautology says:


    And all airport security should immediately cease, since psychopaths will blow up planes anyway.

    Do you get it? Mandatory waiting periods, gun training, tests, permits, licenses, psych evals, clip bans and banning gun shows and online purchases wouldn’t STOP the crazies, but it would be MUCH MUCH MORE DIFFICULT, right?

    How about this. What about holding the gun supplier responsible? If someone kills illegally with a gun from your store, you get sued. Liability laws.

    We’re not banning guns. But what part of a “well-regulated” militia are you not getting?

  210. 210
    fidelio says:

    @Calouste: Yes, depending on where you are and who you know. Remember Ruby Ridge? They were after Wheeler because he was suspected of gun trafficking. There are any number of people who are in a position to buy weapons legally who will resell them, if they feel it’s warranted, on the downlow. I know people now who would ‘loan’ me a gun on a ‘temporary’ basis, no questions asked, if they were convinced–and in some cases it wouldn’t be too hard–I had a reasonable need for one–and ‘reasonable’ is a very flexible term for some people.

  211. 211
    Jebediah says:


    Norway had a similar tragedy not long ago and has some of the toughest gun regulations in existence.

    Those tough gun regulations might be part of the reason Norway doesn’t have one of these incidents EVERY FUCKING MONTH.

  212. 212
    fidelio says:

    @Patrick: Sometimes you have to yell or you end up pounding your head against the wall until someone drags you away.

    The single best solution I can come up with is not a regulatory solution–it’s the anti-drunk-driving campaigns. These focussed on 1) Getting people to stop and think about the behavior and its consequentces 2) Making that behavior socially unacceptable, above and beyond legal penalties 3) pushing for consistent & effective enforcement of existing laws 4) pushing for new legislation as a follow-up strategy to the first three approaches.

    I’m old enough that I can recall when such charges were often dismissed, or when the idea of a roadblock to grab potential drunk drivers would have never happened. There were no ad campaignss against this, nothing. Now think about where we are on this. There are still drunk drivers, and there are still deaths resulting from this. But they’re treated differently in the press and by public perception and reaction.

    Changing perceptions is a social approach that’s as difficult as legislative campaigns, but it’s one where you could count on a broader base of support. I suspect it would be easier to get cash for such campaigns as well.

  213. 213
    Lurker says:


    maybe we need, to ask, Whats the matter with michigan, now….draconian labour laws, antiabortion laws, what next???

    Michigan seems to be after things that begin with “W.” Workers, Women, Worshipers (allowing guns in church), Wolves

  214. 214
    Original Lee says:

    @PaulW: Honest to Dog reaction by FB friend: But cars aren’t in the Constitution.

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